Race War Now!

I'm hesitant to allow anything super weird, since I think the players should play a character first, and a race second. If the racial choice matches up in the setting, and they clearly have a plan for the character that the race choice actually enhances, instead of replaces, then sure I'll allow it.

I think the standard fantasy races are fine, most everybody will know what a "Gnome" is thanks to our culture, so they have an idea of what to expect and how to design their character without having to research a bunch of setting specific information. Too many GMs think that "original" races make their setting interesting, in reality the setting is only as interesting as the players are willing to interact with it.

>>50505908
desu I think there is too much faux diversity.
The magic men races (elves and dwarves) should combine into one, along with the shorts 9halflings and gnomes) and the anti-hero (drow, tiefling and half orc).

>>50506109
I can agree with that except for elves and dwarves. They're sufficiently distinct (not to mention iconic) to remain as is.

I'd get rid of halflings (blatant tolkien ripoff) and have half-orcs as the anti-hero/tough guy race.

>>50505908
>Gas the gnomes
>Gas the half-breeds
>Gas the scalies
>Gas the edgelords

Humans, Dwarves, Elves, and halflings are all you need.

>>50506153
well if you look at elves and dwarves, they can both drink a lot, both craft great items (including magical), both usually have their decling kingdoms steeped in tradition, both of them are manlets, etc.


Both are actually extremely similar, despite elf/dwarf lovers insisting otherwise otherwise

For my proposed campaign, the races are:
Brute
Dwarf
Elf
Half-Brute
Half-Dwarf
Half-Elf
Human

Thinking about including Gnomes, Goblins, and Hobgoblins. Gnomes live to far away, and Goblins and Hobgoblins are hated in a number of different regions. Gnoblins are way to pathetic to be anything but NPCs.
Brutes are tall, blue-skinned humanoids with inhumanly long arms. Brutes are the only race that have origins related to the settings gods (and thus are the youngest race).
Half-Dwarves and Half-Elves are basically Humans because this is AD&D, they won't get any stat bonuses, just different class availability.

>>50505908
Back when I was putting together a 3e campaign for some friends, I'd floated the idea of adding Kobolds and Lizardfolk to the mix. Everybody agreed, though then that led to the great "winged faux-elf" debacle of '01, and the campaign died before it could start.

File: hqdefault.jpg (13KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 480x360px

When was the last time you used Stonecunning or the Elve's ability to detect hidden passages?

>>50505908
In most RPGs, the most important thing about PC races is that they fill all niches available

In DnD, this means every possible racial stat bonus allocation should be done by at least one race. So +2X/-2Y for 3e, +2X, +2Y/Z for 4e and +2X, +1Y for 5e

>>50506230
Elves are manlets? I guess that depends on the setting. In some cases they're taller than humans.

Elves and dwarves are idiosyncratic in both their physical appearance, mindset and culture. I can't imagine a setting with one but not the other. It would feel imbalanced.

>>50506380
>chosing races for your campign setting based on attribute allocation rather than whether they fit the tone of the setting

This is what people mean when they say that D&D has become to gamist.

>>50506413
DnD elves are canonically manlets.

There is a big problem with the synonym races. Things like Dwarves and Gnomes had very little difference originally, and now they occupy this strange space that's quite uncertain of where they belong. I like the Pathfinder Gnome as they have a place, they're descended from the fey, in 5e there are Forest Gnomes which are like that, and I like Forest Gnomes, but it's Rock Gnomes which I don't get but they've become the more popular depiction of Gnomes as of late.

I actually like Halflings as they're this sort of meek pathetic people who are incredibly insular and comfy. The PCs are likely the outliers of Halfling society, who in their right mind would want to adventure? That's dangerous! Also their name just sounds small and pathetic, Halfling. Like they're not even whole. They've come to depend on humans so much I think they get taken advantage of in a weird not-child labour kind of way.

Tieflings, Dragonborn, Half-Orcs, and Half-Elves I think should be rather unique. I don't see them having communities of their own. Dragonborn the least as I don't like dragons being PCs.

>>50506413
Older editions of D&D have the average height of an Elf at 5 feet and Dwarves at or just under 4 feet. Admittedly though I believe that Dwarves and Elves like different alcoholic beverages.
I'm not sure why they would be combined. One makes a good wizard and one cannot be a spellcasting class (in editions before 3.0).
>>50506454
Modern Elves in 5e and what not generally have them in the exact same range of heights that Humans have (in 5e their random height starts 2 inches shorter and rolls the same dice).

File: Mul-Daya-Channelers-MtG-Art.jpg (354KB, 969x800px) Image search: [Google]

354KB, 969x800px

I actually like a lot of monster-blooded races. Well, at least the distant-ancestor ones, rather than the "my dad was a dragon and my mother was a kitsune ones".

The ones they had in Eberron - Shifters and Changlings - are good examples. *Everyone* knows what werewolves are, and a lot of people will know what dopplegangers are, so players can wrap their heads around them without reading pages on pages of speshul lore. Yet they also don't allow for the potential abuse and derailment that being an actual lycanthrope or fetch would entail, nor do they completely define the character. Seems like a good deal?

File: Thalassian6.1.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

>>50505908
> I would love for something like merfolk or rakshasas to be core races
i replaced half elves in my campaign with merfolk. i made my own custom fluff where they are a major race. they are cosmopolitan merchants/explorers/diplomancers. you might like them. i still need a decent name for them tho

>play dwarf female
>have to infiltrate a men's club
>walk up to bouncer
>bluff check
>tell DM I have beard
>auto-pass

over powered race desu

>>50506488
A dragonborn is to a dragon as a human is to a titan. In other words dragonborn are barely dragons and their fluff specifically says they live pretty much like humans, in large groups as people. So you can have an entire town of dragonborn peasant farmers and blacksmiths and tavern wenches, with the single human wizard or renowned fighter be the weird outsider for a change.

Tieflings are really varied depending on edition in that they can be a race, and thus you'll be able to find plenty of them, or a singular one off from some fucked up ancestry, in which case being an adventurer is pretty much their only job career with any hope of getting something nice.

Elves are very human in thought and shape, and thus would be very attractive to some people (like most of this fucking board), thus half elves wouldn't be as rare and thus really wouldn't be all that unique. And half orcs would probably be plentiful in regions with lots of crossover with orcs. Whether rape babies or muscle fetishes/pink skin fetish, there is going to be some crossing from both camps.

Really, your expectations of what races should be rare is built on some rather silly assumptions.

>>50506618
I loved eberron's shifters, and PF has them as skinwalkers, where they have a very large population from notAmerica in their setting. They even have a sidebar so you can make skinwalkers of other races like elves or gnomes or such.

>>50506749
That's awesome. Thanks anon. I'm thinking of making them a major race in my campaign as well.

>>50505908
If Merfolk and Rakshasas were core races, you'd be begging for Tieflings and Dragonborn. You know it, I know it, the entire thread knows it.

>>50506765
What happens when orcs rape elves though? Is that how humans came about?

>>50506765
>A dragonborn is to a dragon as a human is to a titan. In other words dragonborn are barely dragons and their fluff specifically says they live pretty much like humans, in large groups as people. So you can have an entire town of dragonborn peasant farmers and blacksmiths and tavern wenches, with the single human wizard or renowned fighter be the weird outsider for a change.

That dilutes the majesty of dragons for me. Dragonborn SHOULDN'T have villages, and towns, there shouldn't be Dragonborn peasants, and Dragonborn bakers with Dragonborn farmers. It's in the name Dragon Born. They are born from Dragons. Those mythical, terrible, beings that are literally one half of the game's name. You plumb Dungeons, and you fight Dragons. Dragons should be this epic thing, having some not-dragon people in not-dragon villages dilutes that. I'm far more comfortable having Lizardfolk than Dragonborn.

>>50506847
Not in any edition or decent media

>>50506857
Do you also have the same reaction to Kobolds?

>>50506880
In all seriousness though, this is the issue that I have with half races. Why is it only humans who racemic and produce offspring. What happens when orcs fuck elves? What happens when dwarves fuck halflings?

I'm starting to think it's a Jewish conspiracy to dilute the human race with inferior genes...

>>50506765
>>50506857
>Tieflings are really varied depending on edition in that they can be a race, and thus you'll be able to find plenty of them, or a singular one off from some fucked up ancestry, in which case being an adventurer is pretty much their only job career with any hope of getting something nice.

Tieflings should be a one-off kind of being. Like the tiefling that is the result of some kind of bloodline curse from a fiend. "The seventh son of your seventh son shall be marked by wickedness in flesh." Some kind of baleful promise that comes to fruition. It can also be the result of some dark union, but I like the curse idea much better.

>Elves are very human in thought and shape, and thus would be very attractive to some people (like most of this fucking board), thus half elves wouldn't be as rare and thus really wouldn't be all that unique. And half orcs would probably be plentiful in regions with lots of crossover with orcs. Whether rape babies or muscle fetishes/pink skin fetish, there is going to be some crossing from both camps.

Aristocrats are also in human thought and shape, but you won't find an aristocratic daughter bearing the child of a peasant boy unless it's some kind of forbidden romance. Elves are aristocrats in nature. Their interactions with nature are very much like those of aristocrats and Disney princesses. When a baby elf is born, the birds of the forest add another note in their song. They command the forests to move so the glade they live in can see the beauty of the sunset as it falls past the horizon. Elf peasant is an oxymoron, they're always Knights, Lords, Ladies, Dukes, Princesses, Queens, and Kings. How could they love a commoner, even bear them a child. The forbidden sort of union is how.

File: 82zbM7C.jpg (519KB, 1600x1000px) Image search: [Google]

519KB, 1600x1000px

I'm a fan of beast races and whatnot, but I wish they were further developed than "we took an animal and here you go"

>>50506943
The lizard-thing kobolds? Yes.

Although I've taken kobolds away from dragons and made them a kind of goblin. I like my goblins.

>>50506996
Just realized I didn't reply to the half-orc.

> And half orcs would probably be plentiful in regions with lots of crossover with orcs. Whether rape babies or muscle fetishes/pink skin fetish, there is going to be some crossing from both camps.

Considering I like my orcs a disgusting measly sort with boarish features, rape babies are going to be the kind of half-orcs that exist. That brings in a whole other argument of boundaries and the sort. A half-orcs existence in one of pain and tragedy, from conception to upbringing. Most are the pathetic and disgusting lot like the orcs, but it's the outliers that become PCs.

>>50506857
Personally, I agree. II think kobold's niche is being distantly dragon-descended peasants that rarely breed PCs.

Dragonlance's draconian bred as soldiers by evil magic and 3.5's adventurers that agree to become bound to dragons and receive some measure of their strength in exchange are much preferable to 5e dragonborn.

>>50505908
I got rid of the dwarves because I already had gnomes. And elves aren't a playable race in my homebrew. Now what?

File: IMG_0680.jpg (64KB, 472x274px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 472x274px

>>50506194
Humans are all you need, child.

>>50505908
Based on that image, it seems that gnomes are the sexy midget race, as opposed to halflings being the hairy but not buff midget race.

>>50506847
Nothing. Elves and orcs are very much like a ring species with human in the middle. Elves can cross with humans, and orcs can cross with humans, but elves and orcs are too different.

>>50506857
>That dilutes the majesty of humans for me. Humans SHOULDN'T have villages, and towns, there shouldn't be human peasants, and human bakers with human farmers. It's in the name Huge Man. They are born from Giants.

I couldn't resist but its stupid and I know that

Like I said, you expectations are silly and weird. What about dragonborn really dilutes actual dragons? Nothing. Dragons are still giant as crazy powerful monsters who will kill entire villages and town on whim. They can be taken down only by a large army or a few adventures. It's just that now one of those adventures might be a slightly tall robust vaguely dragon head shaped dude who wants to kill that dragon for burning his family alive just like it killed your family.
It increase their visibility and makes them an even stronger influence in the game, Dragonborn expand the influence of dragons to even the races you can take.

>>50507148
>Like I said, you expectations are silly and weird. What about dragonborn really dilutes actual dragons? Nothing. Dragons are still giant as crazy powerful monsters who will kill entire villages and town on whim. They can be taken down only by a large army or a few adventures. It's just that now one of those adventures might be a slightly tall robust vaguely dragon head shaped dude who wants to kill that dragon for burning his family alive just like it killed your family.
>It increase their visibility and makes them an even stronger influence in the game, Dragonborn expand the influence of dragons to even the races you can take.

Everything, it makes "Dragon" closer to "Human." This should not be. The Dragon is an epic sort of creature, it is terrible. It is the Serpent, it is the Monster, it is Chaos, it is Satan. it is the beast that gnaws on the roots of the World-Tree. It should not be a vaguely humanoid shape with human desires and vendettas.

>>50506230
They've solidified into a dichotomy of nature versus industry, liberal culture versus rote traditionalism, of agility versus fortitude. A lot of their similarities come from commonly being held as the "old races," long lived with low birth rates, but their psychology and physiology are often both exaggerated from the human median in opposite directions.

And really mate, EVERYONE drinks a lot, especially in a fantasy setting.

>>50506341
Two weeks ago.

>>50507210
>It increase their visibility

Another point. This is bad. This is like seeing the monster in the horror film. Expectation and imagination will always do better than actually showing. Smaug was far more frightening when he was a lurking thing hidden in the gold, once he got out he was a blundering, smashing thing that moved like a chicken. The shadow always has a greater effect than the thing itself.

>>50507007
That picture just reminded me how much I love Hound Archons. Really wish they made it to 5e's monster manual.

File: dragons in mythology.png (125KB, 1659x942px) Image search: [Google]

125KB, 1659x942px

>>50506996
>>50507069
Tieflings: Yeah I prefer the one off kind, but 4es version combines that "marked by wickedness in flesh" thing by making their race a sortof spreading curse. Any child conceived with another human always turns out a tiefling. And it was handed down by a demon turned god for allying with one of his subordinates who was trying to overthrow him.

Elves as aristocrats: I have never gotten this impression and their fluff really doesn't support that impression. They are more like robin hoods band of thieves mixed with modern ideas of druids, and honestly are very much like the scoia'tael of the Witcher series.

Half orcs: I like mine with more porcine features too, but that disgusting feature is something humans place on them since their features would be considered disgusting by humans. They are monstrous by many standards but that's because the dominant culture within their race is monstrous. Those who live among humans can be decent, some tribes are more decent than others, sometimes even being trade partners looking for things they need. The idea of an entire race being utterly evil just isn't a fun idea since it limits so many stories and ideas.

>>50507210
Ahhh, you've got the themes of dragons from Christian Myth, the worst set of myths possible for them. That would explain your hatred of dragonborn and the expectations for the race. To me, the dragon myth themes are pulled from across the world where they can be benevolent patrons of empires, animalistic monsters, personifications of the sin of greed, the protectors of a clan, the symbolic joiners of the spiritual and material, and other varieties. In some they can even be people, often taking human or humanoid form.

>>50506109
>elves and dwarves should combine into one

you are a fucking retard holy shit

>>50506153
>blatant tolkien ripoff

THIS ENTIRE GENRE IS DERIVATIVE OF TOLKIEN YOU STUPID FUCK

File: cute dragonoid.png (288KB, 744x1052px) Image search: [Google]

288KB, 744x1052px

Despite popular opinion, I think dragonborn aren't all that bad an addition. Granted, I like to fluff them into something akin to dragonoids from Dark Souls, where they're technically still human but their physical form resembles a dragon's.

Only race I really dislike are gnomes, for personal reasons. Elves, dwarves, and halflings I'm okay with, but if that's all that's available I'd rather just play a human.

>>50507489
Calm down Virt

>>50507131
Honestly anytime I play a non-d&d system I'm inclined to agree.

>>50507466
>That would explain your hatred of dragonborn and the expectations for the race. To me, the dragon myth themes are pulled from across the world where they can be benevolent patrons of empires, animalistic monsters, personifications of the sin of greed, the protectors of a clan, the symbolic joiners of the spiritual and material, and other varieties.

In even all of those, their place is one of a great, majestic, epic and terrible being. It is a Dragon. It is a Dragon that protects this land. It is a Dragon that symbolizes the Empire. It is a Dragon that sits atop a great mountain and bestows it's wisdom to those who make the journey to it. Doesn't have the same impact if you say it's a Giant does all those things, now does it?

>In some they can even be people, often taking human or humanoid form.

>This I think is one of the more dumber things. It's good for a reveal, but I don't see how taking away the dragon-ness from a Dragon makes it interesting.

File: 1386051979289.gif (756KB, 213x183px) Image search: [Google]

756KB, 213x183px

>>50505908
wtf is even the diffence between a gnome and a halfing? i have never understood why there are two "different" short races

>>50507648
Halflings are mundane or terrestrial.

Gnomes are fey.

Basically if you think of hobbits as a human midget then you would think of gnomes as an elf midget.

There are not necessarily any midget orcs but goblinoids fill the role sufficiently.
And I don't even know what a midget dwarf would need to be. It seems almost unacceptable.

File: Kalizandrex_Poppo.jpg (75KB, 600x563px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 600x563px

>>50507489
>According to the original Dungeon Masters Guide in "Appendix N: Inspirational and Educational Reading", the "most immediate influences" were the works of Robert E. Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, A. Merritt, H. P. Lovecraft, Fritz Leiber, L. Sprague de Camp, Fletcher Pratt, Roger Zelazny, and Michael Moorcock.[10] Subsequently Gary Gygax listed the "major influences" as Robert E. Howard, L. Sprague de Camp, Fletcher Pratt, Fritz Leiber, Poul Anderson, A. Merritt, and H. P. Lovecraft, with "slightly lesser influence" from Roger Zelazny, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Michael Moorcock, Philip José Farmer, and others.[11]
From wikipedia.

And yes, Tolkien since his players and him liked the monsters and races.

>>50507648
One is hobbits, the simple farmers and such of the English countryside stolen wholesale from Tolkien but renamed due to legal issues. They can also be short thieves and romani expys.

The other is the fey tricksters of english folklore who embody the many small people who did magical deeds and such. They are tinkers and craftsmen and magical wonderworkers. Often bear unnatural looking hair and eye colors.

Read the fucking fluff in the books. Seriously how do so many of you fuckers keep arguing over these races and not know a goddamn thing about them?

>>50507648
one is a naturally gifted illusionist/alchemist
the other is a rogue.

>>50506438
D&D has always been a game first and a world-building device second

>>50507752
>dwarves are midget giants

File: 1479167593.guoh-art_kobold_warrior__perspective_fix_.png (316KB, 948x1028px) Image search: [Google]

316KB, 948x1028px

>>50506194
Fuck off.
I would of agree with you till you mentioned scalies.

>>50507828
I would argue that it's equal parts game and storytelling device.

Lately though, the storytelling gets pushed aside in favour of mechanics.

>>50507602
>Doesn't have the same impact if you say it's a giant doing all those things, now does it?

I would disagree with you there, giants can have immense narrative power and presence if you treat them as being near-godlike in a similar vein to giants from celtic or norse myth

>>50507895
I believe that just because it's first and foremost a game does not mean it's storytelling potential is significantly weakened.

For example, just because you should mechanically have a race that gives a bonus to dexterity and a penalty to constitution doesn't mean it has to be an "elf", it could be humans from an isolated jungle tribe, or goblinoids bred for stealth, or whatever else you can think of

This is how I've always handled D&D personally, make the mechanics work, and then look at the mechanics and fill out the fluff to make it all make sense

>>50507947
I disagree. Mechanics should aid and facilitate the storytelling. Not the other way around. Building around mechanics stifles creativity.

I don't play RPGs for the mechanics, I play them to get together with some friends and partake in a shared story. I think it's a shame that people approach tabletop RPGs the same way you would a video game.

>>50507908
>I would disagree with you there, giants can have immense narrative power and presence if you treat them as being near-godlike in a similar vein to giants from celtic or norse myth

I just don't see Giants having that kind of impact. Giants are just big people, be they dumb, savage, noble, or enigmatic, they're still big people. A people of a bygone age, but still people. They can definitely hold a candle on their own don't get me wrong, but they just can't compare to dragons for me. The only thing they've got going for them is scale, a giant can stomp his way through a city and Harryhausen around the PCs to have a conversation, but they don't carry the weight of a dragon.

>>50508035
Building around a framework helps creativity greatly in my personal experience

To start building the fluff without mechanics in mind leaves me lost, like trying to write a short story without thinking of a theme first, or drawing a picture without a scene in mind to draw

>>50505908
Honestly I don't give a shit I just want my races to feel distinct. Something I hate about DnD is that at the end of the day all of the races feel interchangeable. A dwarf is a bit better than an elf if you want a high constitution but not that much better. By level 4 an elf could reach the maximum possible constitution if they rolled well. At the end of the day I feel like races are more for thematic purposes which is fine but kind of defeats the point of using different races instead of using all humans.

I mean look at 40k for comparison, although none of their RPGs are really built around playing as different races, the races themselves are extremely different in terms of capabilities. Comparing an Ogryn to a regular human, the Ogryn is much much stronger, much much stronger to kill, much clumsier, and literally retarded. Likewise Eldar are superhumanly fast. No matter how strong a human is, they will never outmuscle an Ogryn without augmentation. Likewise an unaugmented human can never hope to march an Eldar in terms of speed.

Using DnD's ability scores as the example I would like to see something more like.

Elves
>Dexterity is increased by 6 and is capped at 26 as opposed to 20
>Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is increased by 3 and is capped at 22
>Other misc. benefits

Half-Orc
>Strength is increased by 6 and capped at 26
>Constitution is increased by 3 and is capped at 22
>Other misc. benefit

So if you wanted to play and Elf barbarian, you could, it wouldn't even be a bad build since now your AC is capped at 25 without magical items. However even the strongest elf will be hard pressed to match the average orc or half orc in terms of strength, so if you want to swing an axe really fucking hard the half-orc is probably a better choice for your race.

I like how elder scrolls did races. Ten races, more or less evenly distributed amongst three broader racial categories: humans, elves, and beastfolk.

>>50505908
Tieflings are for edgelords, but you want literal "decadent demon nobles" Rakshasas?
Also there might be inherent technical difficulty with having one aquatic race, unless your party was planning to carry around a handcart full of water anyway.

Anyway, my game has humans, elves and a 'small race' that's pretty similar to Genomes in FFIX, which I may or may not cut out at the end.

>>50507843
Come to think of it, they kind of are.

>>50507466
>Elves as aristocrats: I have never gotten this impression and their fluff really doesn't support that impression.
It's kind of a meme, really.

>>50508534
You don't have dwarves in your setting? What happened? Did the elves kill them all?

>>50507843
I'm actually stewing with an idea that dwarves come hand in hand with giants, like maggots in their flesh or lice. Hill Dwarfs come from Hill Giants and are more folksy like the ones from Snow White. Stout Halflings have ties to them by blood. Mountain Dwarves come from Frost and Fire Giants both. They're the more hardcore dwarfy motherfuckers. Dwarves are around where giants are or have been.

>>50508673
>It's kind of a meme, really

It has precedent. Norse kings were considered to have elf in their blood or reincarnated into elfs. Dunsany had an even princess and kingdom. Elf knights are sung about in child ballads. Elves being inherently noble and aristocratic is not a new meme, this one has been going for a long time.

>>50505908
>hob- I mean, halflings
Halflings haven't really been blatant hobbit knockoffs for three and a half editions. Modern halflings are a crossbreed between hobbits and kender.

>>50509019
That's like saying D&D elves aren't like Tolkien's elves.

They're essentially the same fucking thing anon.

>>50509132
D&D elves are more Poul Anderson than Tolkien.

File: 428.jpg (193KB, 497x732px) Image search: [Google]

193KB, 497x732px

>>50505908
>wanting furrys

roll to kill youself

>>50505908
I agree with you on half elves and gnomes. Half orcs or dragonborn should be chopped too. Aasimars are Cool.

>>50507148

Whycome biology cross-breeding with elfhumans and orchumans?

Explain empirical support argument with real organisms

>>50509215
Furry and Beastman are two different things.

>>50509215
Critical failure.
On one hand, failure even at killing himself. On the other, he will now yiff eternal.

>>50509462
wat?

>>50509513

I think he's asking why orcs can breed with humans, elves can breed with humans, but there is no cross breeding between orcs and elves.

Horses can be bred with donkeys to bear mules. They have the same number of chromosomes, but they're incompatible to a degree, and therefore are sterile. To have children that can breed would imply more compatibility, that the difference between humans, orcs, and elves is the same difference between whites, blacks, and elves that can all breed with each other.

>>50505908
I refuse to allow anything but classical races as PCs.

No stupid fucking Dragonborn.

>>50509538
If so, he should have looked up ring species, like I said they were in my post.

Here's the first paragraph of the wiki page:
>In biology, a ring species is a connected series of neighbouring populations, each of which can interbreed with closely sited related populations, but for which there exist at least two "end" populations in the series, which are too distantly related to interbreed, though there is a potential gene flow between each "linked" population. Such non-breeding, though genetically connected, "end" populations may co-exist in the same region thus closing a "ring".

A breeds with B and B breeds with C but A and C cannot breed. Its an interesting bit of biology.

And since this is fantasy in a magical world and neither orcs or elves exist, they can follow bits of pseudoscientific or even mythological explanations of speciation or relatedness.

>>50509610

Wow, holy shit. You learn something new every day.

>>50506341
Actually, last 3.5 game I ran a couple of months ago. The dwarf is pretty good about remembering stonecutting and now and then I'll have the elf roll for secret passages. It actually works quite well if you sometimes wait a bit to have him take a second to consider that that wall back there was a bit off. It keeps them from immediately searching the room because the elf got a roll no one else did.

>>50509636

As a player, I could never help but meta-game whenever I was asked to make a roll. My first DM had us give him a card with our spot, search, and listens and would roll behind the screen without telling us anything unless we succeeded.

>>50507847
Dragonborn are dumb as shit, kolbods are enemies. I honestly don't get people's obsession with them. They're just lizard goblins that are slaves to/worship dragons. Sure they like traps and inventions you know who else likes that, gnomes. Kolbods are the gnomes of the evil races, therefore double gas.

>>50509538
Some mules are fertile.
Also, consider dogs, wolves, and coyotes.

File: gria girl.png (75KB, 200x359px) Image search: [Google]

75KB, 200x359px

I really liked the gria race and its always what I imagined a draconic race to be like, maybe some scales on the face, but going full scaly just makes them look like lizard people

Personally I prefer adjusting existing races over making new ones.

Maybe have dwarves be more cold adapted. Give them paunch guts and bits of fur on them. Give them hard, leathery hands and dull claws to dig.

>>50505908
tl;dr: start the campaign with basic races only, then open up options later as they are introduced into the campaign

Tieflings and dragonborn are usually straight out, and I hate gnomes and would rather have just halflings than gnomes AND halflings so they are usually out too. Let's be honest, gnomes are just gay fucking versions of hobbits for people who want to be quirky wizards.

Then half-elves are fine, whatever, another tall race with slightly different stats but you can play the inbetweener angle or the dealbroker angle.

Half-orcs are a bit trickier, since orcs are usually mostly Evil and largely hated. They should have some social ramifications but it then becomes a bit weird when the party's patron is a dwarf and half the party goes half-orc. Then again, I like some of the FR orc lore with the Obould dynasty, which can serve as inspiration for more peaceful orcs.

And that's all of the core races. But I should say that this only applies to the BEGINNING of a campaign. If all beastmen and rare races are open to choose in the beginning, then the party will look like a crazy fucking circus. It's better to start out kind of limited and lowkey. But if the campaign has gone on for a while, and has featured, say, lizardmen or aarakocra, and some players' characters have retired/died, then sure, stat up a fucking lizardman party member. You're probably at a high enough level where you see more magic and weird shit and balance has gone out the window anyway.

>>50506341
Stonecunning: last session, the dwarf of the party examined a stone sarcophagus

>>50506488
> but it's Rock Gnomes which I don't get but they've become the more popular depiction of Gnomes as of late.
Because steampunk faggots have a hardon for tinkering. "Can I fluff my magic as alchemical concoctions! Can I fluff my magic as clockwork machinery!" No, fuck you, basic bitch.

>>50505908
>>half-elves - for those indecisive people who can't choose between a human and an elf
Half elf is more to pander to those that want to be special snowflakes without looking ridiculous etc. Many fantasy heroes are half-elves, as the half races necessarily come into conflict as a result and these two heritages don't clash violently like with half-orcs.


To answer, I dislike half-races as mechanically different races plus the fact they usually have the shitty trope of being better than both parents and yet not taking over the world or being more wide-spread in population.
Halflings are cool, their size brings something new at least and culturally they're ok.
Gnomes I can't figure out what exist for, they are basically just to halflings what elves are to humans in a way except elves are only included because it's so common. Gnomes are usually only used for the invention/crazy alchemist etc. type thing, which is easy to do with a culture of any other race.
Tieflings can be cool, I hate the red sexy tieflings but black / random table tieflings are decent. Still fits a template more than a race though as they should exist as all races.
Dragonborn usually have interesting origins/cultural backgrounds as a race, though like any beastmen some people will be triggered and think it's pandering to furries and scalies. Dragons are such a big thing in D&D that if it makes sense and I can come up with cool fluff I will include them, but they're not core at all. Pic related, only decided to include them a few weeks back but I think it works.

Generally I need a reason to include a race, a unique seeling point if you will. Halflings are Small, elves wear masks as they have a bad case of sameface, dwarves are very different than actual dwarves but they are genetically driven to fuck and fight which I think has interesting effects, etc.

>>50507466
>Those who live among humans can be decent, some tribes are more decent than others
This is my problem, if half-orcs can be good and not just rape-babies, that means orcs can also be good, which again means why have only half-orcs and not fullblooded orcs as a race? Half-races should be an add-on if you need more mechanical diversity without wanting more actual races, otherwise I don't get them. Also what some anon said about having not just human half-races.

>>50505908
I'm using classic races, although I've tried to make sure each of them have enough defining traits as one or more cultures. It's a vaguely stone age/tribal setting. If my players want to play something else and can justify it well enough for the setting, I'll usually allow it.
>Humans are the most sedentary race, they're also shifting towards bronze-age tech faster than the other races.
>Orcs are nomads with affinity for big dinosaur mounts.
>Orcs and human populations often intermingle, since they live in the same area, and humans can use orc muscle, and orcs like human tech. Half-orcs are frequents, and are about as likely to be love children than the usual alternative.
>Centaurs also live in the same area and are purely nomads. Their herds are tightly-knit and rather xenophobic.
>Dwarves are the ancient precursors who died out, leaving plenty of mysterious dungeons full of traps for adventurers to explore. You could theorically find very rare remnants of that race in some other civilization, if a player wanted to play Last of Their Kind.
>Halflings live to the far North and ride polar bears. They're diminutive but extremely resilient, and routinely hunt things that are far too big for them (whales for example).
>Gnomes live in the most temperate area, and have a pact of mutual protection with elemental and fey creatures. Which is not necessarily a good thing for everybody else, since they're all very xenophobic, and they keep the best land to themselves. They're mostly druids.
>Elves live in tropical forests, in treetop villages from which they rarely descend. They're very good at maneuvering in the canopy, and mostly keep to themselves.
>Amphibians are salamander and frog-men who live in the jungle's swamps. They're rather civil because they brew extremely potent poison, and nobody but them could live where they do anyway.

>>50509610
The problem is that it's not stated, it can be used as justification in some settings of course and I can see it with elves and dwarves as they are both different from humans, diverging in each their direction, but this isn't necessarily the case in the game. And even with ring species, for humans to be able to bear half-orcs, -elves, -halflings, -gnomes, whatever, that seems very hard to justify with anything except magic. In many settings other half-breeds are possible too, there just aren't mechanics for it.

>>50509610
>A breeds with B and B breeds with C but A and C cannot breed. Its an interesting bit of biology.
A god did it. Elf god hates orc god. Indifferent towards humanity.

>>50511271
>>Elves live in tropical forests, in treetop villages from which they rarely descend. They're very good at maneuvering in the canopy, and mostly keep to themselves.
So they eat fruits, bird meat and leaves? Seems like it would be difficult unless they grow vegetables and roots in gardens up in the trees, though I vegetarian elves are fairly common and I can see that working.

How exactly are rape-baby half-orcs as common as normal children if orcs get along with humans and the other way around and they're not filthy savages but just nomads?

File: orcess mistreating wizard.jpg (852KB, 2194x3722px) Image search: [Google]

852KB, 2194x3722px

>>50506153
>I'd get rid of halflings (blatant tolkien ripoff) and have half-orcs as the anti-hero/tough guy race.
Nah, man. gotta have my orcs.

>>50511368
You're missing the point, it's easy to justify with
>Magic!
but the idea here was to find some more realistic justification, a biological reason to not have other half-breeds. Which works as long as there are only half-human half-orcs/dwarves and half-human half-elves, but not if humans can breed with 3+ other races and produce offspring but not any of those can breed with each other. I think, maybe ring species can have 3+ ends but it gets more and more far-fetched.

>>50506235
Gobbos can be small, green, mischievous, stabby dwarves. And own banks.

>>50505908
Honestly, I think there's just a glut of races. Sure, they're different from one another, but on the surface what you have is too many of essentially the same niche.

Humans are slotted as the default race.
Dwarves are slotted as a "classic" short race.
Elves are slotted as the "classic" fey race.
Half-orcs are the race for people who want to play heroic monsters.

Then we have gnomes and halflings for people who want to be short but also cute and quirky, drow also occupying the reformed evil race slot, dragonborn for people who want to be buff kobolds, tieflings for people who want to play a demonic race that's misunderstood and good, Aasimar for angels, Firbolg for something, Kenku for birds, Lizardfolk for more scalies, Tabaxi because you'd prefer to be playing elder scrolls: Elsweyr right now, Tritons because you have a crush on Ariel's dad, Half-Elves because you want to get away with being better than elves and humans at once, goliaths because you're into wrestling, Genasi because you like Avatar, Orcs and Goblins because you know they should have been core from the start, and the list goes on and on.

At most, there should be Dwarves (Short, Tough), Elves (Fey), Humans (Default), and then I nominate FULL Orcs as the monster race (using Half-Orc stats, if you want) and then one sneaky race from either Halflings or Goblins. If you want more options, just add some sub-race variants. It's ridiculous.

>>50511262
Full blooded orcs are often allowed as player races in some settings. They are actually statted for playing in PF and its campaign setting, 3.5 in eberron, FR, and possibly another, 2e AD&D has multiple versions including one that is basically peaceful farmers.

Really, its /tg/ and its know nothing grognards who post here who bring up these shitty race arguments. There are a ton of interesting races to play and often multiple takes on various races from the many books put out by each edition.

>>50511339
>bear half-orcs, -elves, -halflings, -gnomes, whatever, that seems very hard to justify with anything except magic
Do you understand just how much magic pervades the usual D&D setting? A lot. Elves themselves are magical by their very nature. Dragons are super intellectual, multi ton creatures who can fly and breathe fire and lightning and cast spells by just willing it. There are literal gods who literally walk the world. The four elements are what make up reality and not the periodic table.

Of course magic is involved in who can breed with who and shit. But my explanation was for the weird little autists who infest this board and don't understand anything but purely scientific ideas of inheritance and genetics. There are more ways to justifying a detail in a setting than can be found in the very limited world of science, like using a bastardized form of the pseudoscientific Morphegenic Field Theory as an explanation.

>>50511425
Why must there be a realistic (aka Earth) reason? Why can't crossbreeding in a magical fantasy world literally be the purview of the respective fertility gods of each pantheon being ok with it? There aren't any half dwarves because the Dwarven fertility goddess just really doesn't like any other fertility gods.

File: 1379001129437.jpg (44KB, 800x436px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 800x436px

>>50509664
kobolds are whatever you want to make them

in my setting kobolds through some dozens of generations of bad circumstance, had to change their culture from big underground warrens to small roaming caravans. They're the trader race of my world. They lost darkvision from living on the surface permanently (losing sunlight sensitivity in the process), and the rest of their stats got changed cause I really don't care too much for it's abilities, even if they are strong.

>>50511497
I can definitely tell you're a brand new player to D&D and have never read any of the other editions books or settings. Lots of races has been a staple of D&D for decades. They give a ton of options so that you can make a campaign setting and tailor your world to how you want it. Congratulations, you only want a few races for your world, too bad I want tabaxi and dragonborn for mine but not dwarves.

Ill pick a setting at random and list every PC race for that setting I can remember.

Mystara

Dwarf at least 2 types
Elf - like 6 variations of them
Gnome - I think there was 2 or three types.
Half Elf
Half Orc
Halfling
Human
Hutaaka
Lupin and its 12 variations
Rakasta and it's also multiple variations
Tortle
And many more

Blackmoor - Birthright - Council of Wyrms - Dark Sun - Dragonlance - Eberron - Forgotten Realms (Al-Qadim - The Horde - Kara-Tur - Maztica) - Greyhawk - Planescape - Pelinore - Ravenloft - Spelljammer

All of these have multiple and various races. None have ever limited themselves to just the few small number of specific races with no variants you want for them.

>>50511514
>Why must there be a realistic (aka Earth) reason? Why can't crossbreeding in a magical fantasy world literally be the purview of the respective fertility gods of each pantheon being ok with it? There aren't any half dwarves because the Dwarven fertility goddess just really doesn't like any other fertility gods.
It can, but the discussion started with "this doesn't make sense" and then the anon said it actually does because genetics can work like that, and then another anon was like "just blame magic/the gods/whatever" which is definitely fine and would be the easiest way to do it, but it seemed like he was just dismissing a legit genetical reason for it and it didn't really seem relevant to thyat discussion. I guess he may have meant it as in "this is how I do it" and I'm just taking it the wrong way.

>Full blooded orcs are often allowed as player races in some settings
Yeah, I'm just annoyed that the half-orc but not the orc is a core race, it does imply orcs shouldn't be player races and the only other half-breed has the other parent available as well. This is furthered by orcs being a monstrous race in Volo's, which suggests monstrous races should be spies, not actually of that race but polymorphed, resurrected as it, and then some that let you be good but you are still specifically an outlier and orcs or whatever are in general still evil. I know many just use half-orc stats for orcs and that's how I'd do it, but that's not the majority nor is it how the game does it by default.

>>50511639
>This is furthered by orcs being a monstrous race in Volo's,
As a long time player of D&D through multiple editions starting with 2e, fuck 5es lore. It has destroyed and fucked with so fuckign much and drastically simplified a fuckton of shit. Its terrible and is one of the reasons I dropped that edition fast.

Id say try other editions, but if you like the way 5es rules work, don't. Maybe just read the other editions lore instead and steal and convert shit.

>>50511695
Yeah I like 5e rules, no clue how I will do it with new players but with my current experienced group using my own setting with some houserules and different fluff for most if not all races it's not a big problem. I do want to try 4e though, as I love the transparency with the roles and "play this if you want..." for races etc.

>>50506341
my dwarf used stone cunning yesterday to determine the value of a gemstone that a merchant wanted to give us for our items since he had been lying to use about the value of our items before being caught by our half elf.

File: summer_layout__by_anotherwanderer-d86uaxh.jpg (1MB, 1350x593px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1350x593px

>>50505908
I would give fucking important, character-changing bonuses to each race.

Not +1 str, +1 dex, -2 cha. That way lies ridiculousness.

So, say, Elves have a Soul of Light that gives them immortality and make them progressively more powerful as they age, or something. Complete with magic from it, lore, and wordbuilding.

Dwarves are literally made of magma. They bleed magma, and they have a heart made of rocks.

Humans are blessed by the gods, or something. Or maybe they are the only one able to do true magic.

Gnomes are a cursed race, with the curse having an incredibly amount of clauses and applications.

I would make the races mechanically interesting, because that's what's fun. Pointy eared humans and slightly shorter humans are useless, and D&D should hang for what they did with them.

>>50511395
Well, it's still mostly tribal, so Orc Tribe A might like Human Village X and intermingle, but Orc Tribe B might be at war with them.

>>50505908

No Half-Orcs in my game and for obvious reasons.

Fucking a chimpanzee does not produce humanzees, and I fail to believe that an Orc copulating with a human is going to produce a hybrid either.

Plus I'm not going to include half-orcs because of Gary Gygax's sick fetish for rape.

>>50506749
does fucking everything in d&d see in the dark?

I literally cannot stop playing dwarves. I love being able to slur between British, Irish and Scottish accents at the table top, and get away with it; in fact, various DMs I've played with love how into it I get, despite it mostly being me goofing around.

I love that I can use it to play characters who can be silly one moment and dead serious the next.

Dwarves are so based that I literally haven't played anything besides Dwarves in the past year.

As far as I can tell you want at least three racial archetypes in a general fantasy setting; the Pretty race, the Big Guy/Warrioe/Bestial race, and the Midget race. The Pretty race are sophisticated if not arrogant but can be a bait and switch whete they are savage and cruel for juxtaposition. last one is a wild. The Big Guy race are all proud warriors period end of story, if its an Asian author they might have some HARD GAY jokes and wrestling references thrown in. Finally, the Midget race is a pure wild card. It can be gruff dwarfs but its becoming more popular for them to be cute wacky inventors or super magical lolicon/shotacon fantasies if Asian.

The finally, humans. Gotta have your vanilla.

Usually there is also one or more 'NPC' antagonist race that is actually kind of cool, unique to the setting, abd totally unplayable but lovingly crafted making you vindictive toward the designers for making you stick with the above four knuckleheads.

>>50511636
I've been playing since AD&D, don't make assumptions.

>>50511981
Basically, not idea why though as it just makes it boring and makes it so GMs design dungeons etc. around it. I'd rather have monsters with darkvision and players without, so you are at a disadvantage compared to them in dark environments. How it is not monsters carrying around torches makes as much sense as players except for sneaking up on them, ambushes etc. I'm fine with a player or two having it but when it's 80% that's just boring and takes away something.

>>50511981
Everything except humans.

>>50512063

Assunptions are the only thing you can make on an anonymous message board on the internet where lying is par for the course. Especially your generation that would rather lie and pretend to look knowledgable than simply admit you are not informed. There is no shame in that so stop lying anon.

>>50506996
>Elf peasant is an oxymoron
>Elves therefore have no form of low-level infrastructure, no agriculture, nor general populace in their kingdoms
>nobility accounts for 10% of a human kingdom, 100% of an elven kingom

>>50512104
Dragonborn and Halflings say hi.

>>50512118

Makes sense if they had massive non-elven populations doing that, euther through imported labor, servitude or chattel slavery.

See: Drow

>>50512062
I agree those are the big notes to hit, but unless you really don't want mechanical diversity I don't see why you wouldn't appeal to more niche archetypes too, like the happy-go-lucky race (halflings), ancient noble warriors (some dragonborn), etc.

>>50507773
>hobbits, the simple farmers and such of the English countryside stolen wholesale from Tolkien but renamed due to legal issues
wasn't the shire and the people who lived there, particularly the hobbits, supposed to be representative of the Benelux countries? Small, unimportant, peace-loving farmers that enjoy having a good time more than anything else?

File: utxyP.jpg (37KB, 455x529px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 455x529px

>>50512118
I think he meant that elves live like aristocrats, not that every elf holds land and titles.

Elves are masters of the arcane. It's not unforeseeable for them to build some sort of arcane constructs to do menial tasks for them such as tilling the soil, sweeping the streets, etc...

I have a hard time envisioning an elf toiling away in the fields like some peasant. Elves are above that.

>>50512166
They have a connection with nature, and if 1 in every 8 of them can cast Goodberry they don't even need to till the earth and all that.

>>50512155

Those can be fulfilled by subtypes or human racial denigration. Ofc that might upset some people when you have a race of literal happy magical negroes.

>>50512166

They take it as tribute from other races or as above >>50512152 put it.

Also >>50512174

File: 0a31c67d3dd8b0adaed0a6344780fb26.png (426KB, 1024x1024px) Image search: [Google]

426KB, 1024x1024px

>>50505908
I replace the standard fantasy races with JRPG versions of standard fantasy races. Elves are basically elves, dwarves are much less scruffy/Scottish, instead they are just brownish lolis, halflings and gnomes get combined into prums, there are lots of kemonomimi races, and if there are any disgusting fetish races like orcs and gnolls they are at least the appropriate kind of fetish race - monstergirls.

Nothing worse than Western fantasy art, for one.

>>50512201
>>50512152
I'm not sure about this.

Elf societies tend to be fairly homogenous since they aren't tolerant of outsiders. Slavery would be considered immoral for all but the drow.

I like the idea of having elves use minor magic frequently to facilitate their everyday lives.

>>50512182
Eh, it's hard to do mechanical diversity on the level of D&D games with upwards of 15 races. Unless the core race has only an ASI and one feature or something, you can't have powerful stuff like gnomish cunning and such. I do think most races should have subraces because it's a wasted opportunity otherwise, and humans are so numerous and widespread I have no idea why not more people use subraces for them (subraces are not just genetics, culture is a large part as well so even if they're not altered physically in a large way it can still work).

File: 1480297852843.jpg (93KB, 620x670px) Image search: [Google]

93KB, 620x670px

>>50508172
>To start building the fluff without mechanics in mind leaves me lost, like trying to write a short story without thinking of a theme first, or drawing a picture without a scene in mind to draw
Good Heavens you surely and sorely have the 'tism, son!

>>50512241
Kai-o Bait x20!

>>50506413
There's plenty of settings with elves but no real dwarves. The elder scrolls for example.

>>50512297
Stay rustled, plebbitor.

Fuck off with your pretty boy half elves. I want to see half Dwarves. Stat wise and otherwise. Stouter, stronger, more technically inclined.

>>50512243

So tribute and raiding. (Low) magic can't reproduce complex or valuable goods, and if you ate being hyper autistic about D&D magic being literal abd taken to its logical conclusion you are going to end up with Gate connected globalized and diversified mega-cities peitected by flying golems and invisible hit squads.

Like in that insufferable Tippyverse shit

>>50512310
Unless it's a gimmick of the setting, half-breeds being better than both parent races is a shitty trope.

>>50512152
>>50512166
i do get the point he was making, that the general stereotype of elves ,especially the ones encountered or played, are of the more noble variety
but why should it be assumed that elves have no enforced hierarchic class-like system? Considering that most fantasy RPGs are set in feudal systems, why would elves not have a feudal system as well, or something similar?

Then again, might just be me and my tendency to include several layers of realism in my homebrew setting, where only high elves are in the ruling class, and wood elf "peasants" are a sort of hunter-gatherer serfs that get most of the food from "wild" orchards as well as large, hidden glades filled with vegetables and roots
The party hasnt' gone to visit the elf kingdom yet, but so far, the only elves they've encountered were one hunter/adventurer wood elf and the high elf clerk/secretary of a wizard/scientist/alchemist who is the Lord Mayor of a great city and trade hub and vassal of the duke (now emperor) the party was working for

>>50512333

According to animes this is always the case 100% of the time.

>>50512312
>Gate connected globalized and diversified mega-cities peitected by flying golems and invisible hit squads.

That's what would happen if magic existed in real life but I don't think that's what elves would do with it.

Elves don't really build metropolises. They might build a few teleporters and have a few golems around to protect them though.

>>50512372
Fantasy in general uses it way too much I find. Even if it's not strictly better, it's some sort of magical mix where you have most of the benefits of both without the haughtiness, greed, aggression, other downsides. I like half-breeds as actual half-breeds, weird and probably worse in most regards but some have good uses.

>>50512241
This is a troll right? Or do some people on /tg/ really have taste this terrible?

File: carlcuck.jpg (39KB, 600x615px) Image search: [Google]

39KB, 600x615px

>>50512402
>obese plebbitor offended at basics of 4chan
>unironically responds to superior opinions with "Are you kidding me?!"

>>50512402
Most people have terrible taste in something, and /tg/ even has overlap with /d/ so it's possible. Actually expressing those opinions in that way seems like bait though.

File: troll fisherman.jpg (65KB, 297x266px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 297x266px

>>50512241
>>50512457
>>50512308

>>50512390

They wont have a choice if they choose to fall behind and remain isolationist, the other races will excel past them then boot them off any valuable resources they have.

Ya can't fight the future, Jack.

>>50507007
If they're a race and not a monster, I like them to be what humans are for monkeys. Sentient, intelligent people who are evolutionarily conected to alligators rather than alligator-men. You have the alligator equivalent to a neanderthal and/or a chimpanzee too, extinct or not.

Shame I didn't study anything biology related at uni (unless prehistorical archeology counts) so my settings are probably full of bullshit anyways.

>>50508055
I just don't see Dragons having that kind of impact. Dragons are just big lizards, be they dumb, savage, noble, or enigmatic, they're still big lizards. Lizards of a bygone age, but still lizards. They can definitely hold a candle on their own don't get me wrong, but they just can't compare to giants for me. The only thing they've got going for them is scale, a dragon can raze his way through a city and Harryhausen around the PCs to have a conversation, but they don't carry the weight of a giant.

Literally nothing in the argument has changed. You just have a cultural bias against Kyojin over Godzilla.

(not the same anon you've been talking to, btw)

>>50512509
Most D&D races are isolationist though. The only notable exceptions being humans and orcs (and other savage races).

Elves, dwarves and other humanoids are in decline in most settings anyway.

>>50512537
Are you baiting?

Dragons are highly intelligent, ancient and iconic monsters of fantasy. Old dragons are some of the toughest monsters a party can face. They're arguably the most iconic fantasy monster in existence.

They're not just "dumb lizards" as you put it. Their wise, cunning and potent spellcasters as well as being physically imposing. Dragons can lay waste to entire kingdoms.

>>50512818
Dragons' intelligence is arguable, anon. Compare drakes, wyverns and white dragons to storm giants. Most of them are a dumb extreme stereotype of greed.

Titans can lay waste to entire continents/worlds. Giants are mammals, and therefore superior to element-spewing flying lizards.

File: unnamed.jpg (267KB, 1627x900px) Image search: [Google]

267KB, 1627x900px

>>50512959
I'd say you're cherry picking there anon. Drakes and wyverns are not dragons. Nor are titans giants. Storm giants are the most intelligent and most powerful giants but even they cannot rival dragons.

The intelligence of old dragons is far beyond that of the average human (with the notable exception of white dragons as you pointed out which are of average intelligence).

They are greedy but they are far from dumb. Giants often serve dragons as slaves or livestock. To compare the two is preposterous.

This is all canonical in D&D by the way. Read the MM.

>>50507025
You're either a dragon irl or a dragoboo. How dare you deny kobolds their rightful heritage?!

>>50512523
The problem there is that they are usually still humanoid, and besides their body shape and limb structure they're probably warmblooded and are similar to humans to the point where they wouldn't have super impactful racial abilities because then they're not fit for a D&D race. I can see them being related, but I think it's better then to have a god/wizard/whatever make alligators more humanoid and basically forcing evolution in a certain direction very quickly. I have it so the god of animals gave animals the chance to wish for any alterations, so some of them being envious of humans wished for opposable thumbs, humanoid bodies, the ability to use weapons so they can fuck up the humans who have used that advantage against them for ages etc. Those that are similar enough to humans and not evil are player races, while the lions who wished for fire breathing and wings are not.

>>50513059
>>50512959
I thought the argument was more about body type and general feeling of the monster? Not what is mechanically strongest or smartest, as that is just fact laid out in the book. The original sentiment of "giants can have immense narrative power and presence if you treat them as being near-godlike in a similar vein to giants from celtic or norse myth" still stands strong IMO.

>>50513890
That wasn't the same anon. It is an argument of feeling of the monster. The Dragon is iconic, again it's in the name of the game. Gygax thought it was pretty damn important to name half his game after it.

As for Giants and Titans. Giants aren't Titans to me. Titans are these immense primordial beings and ruled before the gods, and were brought down by them. Titans have an immense impact, but that's also due to impossible scale. Galactus is like the modern Titan, not a Giant. Giants sound like a people, Titans sound like a force of nature.

>>50512537
Even with them being lizards, they're the primordial lizards, that evoke themes of dinosaurs. The most modern dragon would be Godzilla. Another force of nature kind of being, but even then he's just a primordial lizard with an inhuman cunning, because they came before humans, they were here first. Giants are just like primordial humans, they're just like us.

>>50506341
I've used stonecunning quite a lot, which has varied uses, once was RP exposition and hints, finding out that the temple walls that depict ancient human not-egyptian royalty were crafted by dwarven masons, despite the imagery showing that the place was built by skeletal figures to revere the royal family.

Which opened up a few explainations, an alliance with the dwarves? Advanced necromancy for craftskellies? But the correct one which we deciphered, the skull and skeleton imagery refered to slaves. This helped us find a way to open a magically sealed stone-chest. The mural showed the Not-Pharoh being bowed to by others huamn figures, as a skeleton opened the chest and lifted a golden shawl, wrapped it around the Not-Pharoh and kneeled with the others. We couldn't open the stone chest, but figuring it out we conjured an Unseen Servant, who as he was thematically "A slave." it was able to open the chest no problem for some bonus-loot.

I also used it to find a trap, there was a strange alcove in the sandstone, We were in an underground temple looking for something, Goblin excavators were ahead of us also looking. I wanted to use stonecunning to see how recently the stone was worked and if they were trying to dig to the other side of something, found out the slight erosion in this alcove was due to water damage which is strange with no nearby sources of water. Turned out, we figured, that the chamber ahead had a trap that conjured a massive surge of water to smash intruders which thanks to stonecunning, we managed to plan for such when opening the door and dispelled the effect before entering the room.

A lot of the time it's just "This rock is made from local granite." or "This rock is made from non-local materials, so whoever built this place must have been reasonable powerful at least logistically."

>>50508824
You have a point about Norse elf-kings, but I meant more of the "snooty elf noble" idea.

>>50512094
>>50511981
The reason is because only Dwarves, Gnomes and Half-orcs used to get Darkvision.

Other races used to get "Low light" vision, which meant they could see better in dim conditions.

in 5e they removed low light vision, but so Elves didn't bitch they gave them full on darkvision instead. As a result far too many races ended up with Darkvision, literally only Halflings and Humans lack it really.

It's fine though since Goggles of the Night are a fairly cheap magic item, and based on the fact that in one of the campaigns you find a crate of 20 of them packaged for shipment, they are a commonly traded, mass produced magic item.

One of my players favourite items is a set of Goggles of the Night that give 2 casts of Hunters Mark each dawn.


On the topic though, removing gnomes to Monster-Race was an amazing move in 4e, taking the "Halflings oh wait its not its a gnome but not quite you can't really tell them apart" and making them into distinct forest folk who are a bit wierd and slightly fae was brilliant, why did they get canned in 5E? Did they want the WoW audience with their tinker gnomes.

>>50514529
I think half-elves getting it is the stupidest thing. If low light is darkvision 0.5, half-elves should have darkvision 0.25 but still get full darkvision because
>how far do your elf eyes see?

>gnomes
A bit confused, 4e had gnomes as monsters and you would mistake them for friendly little hobbits? Because that sounds fucking awesome and I think gnomes just got back into my setting.

>>50513890
>giants can have immense narrative power and presence if you treat them as being near-godlike in a similar vein to giants from celtic or norse myth

That's not canonical. If you want to homebrew a setting where giants are stronger than dragons and dwarves don't drink then go right ahead but you need to understand that it's atypical.

Dragons are probably the stongest "natural" monsters in D&D except for things like the tarrasque.

>>50514666
Yeah that's what the "if" is for. Someone argued against that statement directly, I know it can be dismissed by "that's not the case most of the time" but that wasn't eh counter-argument. I'm just stating, I didn't argue anything, it just seemed weird for both sides to move goalposts and start arguing about something tangential even if none of them started the argument.

Human race
Master race

File: mutio.jpg (256KB, 1680x1050px) Image search: [Google]

256KB, 1680x1050px

>>50511981
i made them see in the dark because they replace half evlfs and are based on elf elf stats. also, dark vision is a way to portray the enhanced senses that many water animals have. a race that lives in the darkness of water will definately need darkvision. it makes sense from every angle

>>50512243
>Elf societies tend to be fairly homogenous since they aren't tolerant of outsiders.

I'm not sure that's canon in anything but /tg/'s headspace.

>>50514607
>A bit confused, 4e had gnomes as monsters and you would mistake them for friendly little hobbits?
No, it was just that the gnome race was only in the monster manual until the PHB2 came out. Gnomes were a regular race, but there would be reasons to fight them.

File: Rawr_Ima_monster.jpg (21KB, 281x291px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 281x291px

>>50514607
4e had gnomes as a "Monster race", they had stats for player-races off the bat, but the fact that they were in monster manual not PhB was the first step for them becoming a distinct unique race.

They were a lesser fae, creepy forest-fuckers who lived in the woods, spent far too much time with badgers and were just as likely to help you as they were to rob you in the night, as they were to poison your food with radical mushrooms and watch you freak out, giggling impishly. All in the same day, and you're pretty sure when you woke up that this wasn't the same gnome you started with.

Very Rumplestiltskin, and it was brilliant. Now we have WoW tinkergnomes.

>>50511557
Why call them kobolds, once you've reached this point?

>>50514991
>>50515031
Right, thanks for explaining.

>>50515031
Oh neat, I forgot about those sketches. Time to rewatch them, thanks.

>>50506857
>They are born from Dragons

They aren't though in every DnD setting that isn't Dragonlance or PoL. PoL has them as castoffs from Io, like how Moradin made the dwarves, only they formed from drops of Io's blood after he got skullfucked by a primordial.

In DS they're Dray, in FR they're just a race from Abeir that was enslaved by dragons and Dawn Titans, in Eberron they're just freaky Argonessan natives, etc.

You're bringing in some very false assumptions in how you judge dragonborn.

The only setting that has them actually born of dragons is draconians, and they're degenerate freaks because they're dragon eggs twisted by Takhisis' magic.

>>50505908
This is actually why I scrubbed the stock fantasy races for my homebrew setting; they felt overused and bland/flanderized to the point where it was an uphill battle to present them uniquely.

As for me, I almost always play a human or equivalent, for the above reasons.

>>50515031

Pretty much the only 4e racial lore that wasn't better than other editions was tieflings and half-orcs, imo.

>>50507007
>>50512523

we shoud make a pc race like
monkey to human
cat to elf
badger to gnome
alligator to lizardfolk
hound to asimar/hound archon
pig to orc

we should also break down the types to classes like
beast people
goblinoids
bird folk (arakocra, kenku)
lizaedfolk (kolbolds, lizardmen, dragonborn, yanti)
frogs - bullywugs - slaads...

>>50515492
Tell me about you not-elves, not-dwarves, and not-orcs.

>>50512118
100% of Spartans were nobles

>>50515753
>100% of Spartans were nobles
ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

If by "Spartans" you refer to the ruling class, the people most prominently thought of as such, you're refering to the upper class, which were fewest in number

There were two other classes in the social hierarchy, the middle class, or Perioeci, who essentially were considered citizens, but not fully, and therefore could own land, serve in the military or navy, and more freely, but could not enter politics or marry a Spartiates Proper.

And, of course, my main point in the post you're referring to: the serfdom, the lower class, specifically among Spartans referred to as Helots, state owned serfs, meaning don't own their own bodies, let alone anything else, although Spartans would treat their serfs rather liberally compared to other nations at the time and after.

So, unless you're implying serfs are nobles, you might wanna read more books and less 300
Or just look it up online before you make a fool of yourself

TL;DR: The amount of spartans that were nobles are in the minority, most either had limited citizenship or were serfs

>>50512118
Elves could just be a ruling class over other races.
>Elves are on top
>Humans, dwarves, goblins, orcs, or some other race act as slaves and serfs
Explanation could be as simple as Elves invading and conquering other races or could be some sort of Elves were the Gods' chosen race and given the other races to rule over and use as slaves.

File: nonsense.jpg (706KB, 1692x2636px) Image search: [Google]

706KB, 1692x2636px

>>50515633
>33

9000 hours ms paint

>>50512158
>the Benelux countries?

Why would a brittish writer base his unimportant, peace-loving farmers on the farmers of another nation instead of the english ones? The countryside as a locus amoenus is pretty much universal.

>>50516066
>British
>Peace Loving

>>50516008
>Helots
>Spartans
Most people who lived in Sparta were not Spartans, as you pointed out yourself

>Perioeci could not enter politics
Really? They couldn't even enter the democratic shouting matches?

>>50512509
>if they choose to fall behind and remain isolationist, the other races will excel past them

Isn't that kinda the point with those kinds of ancient glory races?

>>50512537
>Literally nothing in the argument has changed.

Are you a lizard? Otherwise I cannot get how you can believe that.

>>50514411
>snooty elf noble

It's less snooty, and more noble for most elves. Things like High Elves represent the good aspects of the aristocracy, Dark Elves or drow represent the bad ones.

>>50516066
because he during the Great War, where the majority of the front was in the ardennes, which a good portion of the Benelux countries covers?

From what i recall having read somewhere (i know, such a great source) he basically considered the Benelux countries to be peaceful farmers that were incapable of war because they were too busy eating fatty food (like fried potatoes chips) and drinking beer while leading dull, uneventful lives.

And also the bigger countries (or, as described in LotR, the Tall Folk) had to come in and prevent the evil german war machine (aka Mordor) from taking over and ruining the beautiful landscape with battlefields and industry

Then there's also the pipeweed of LotR and one of the favorite pastimes of the Netherlands, although i can't remember if that was added to the article as a joke or not

>>50513890
What ancient empire has used giants in his heraldry and symbology to represent the empire itself?

>>50516113
they were still greek, were they not?

Which is why I used the split by subraces to also split the elves into classes, with high elves taking a position akin to Spartiates proper, with the wood elves taking on mixed middle and lower classes

And no, Perioeci could not enter politics because they were inhabitants, not citizens, and only citizens are allowed to have a say

>>50513829
>then they're not fit for a D&D race

Sorry, since OP said "and other fantasy RPGs" I took it for granted that we were beyond that shit when needed, and that I'm looking specifically for a race that s not similar to humans.

To be honest, I prefer to make them non-playable over making them boring. PCs can still enjoy them without playing them, through interaction.

>>50512158
No. From all accounts, the shire was inspired by the countryside around Birmingham where Tolkien lived as a boy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29787528

Tolkien's works were not political allegory like /pol/tards would have you believe.

Tolkien created Middle-Earth because he felt that England needed it's own mythology beyond Arthurian legends. He was inspired primarily by Norse mythology which he adored along with nordic culture.

>>50516097
Englishmen are peace loving. We didn't start the wars you know. The Germans did.

t. Englishman

>>50515471
There is power in a name anon, and Dragonborn is more evocative than Dray, or draconians. Any fluff associated with them in regards to actual campaign settings should be ignored, as it's unlikely you're using those settings in the first place. It's also rather dumb to call them Dragonborn but not be born of or from dragons, isn't it? The name alone evokes something strange and mythical but only by piggybacking on the myths of dragons themselves. Giantborn doesn't have the same ring to it, now does it?

>>50515633
Nah, elves, gnomes, etc. are clearly monkeys too. Even orcs, probably, unless you make them very pig looking (which I approve).

A race descended from a totally different specie, even if it's mammal, like dogs or cats, cannot be a pointy-eared human.

>>50516330
>There is power in a name anon, and Dragonborn is more evocative than Dray, or draconians

This means nothing, because I find 'draconian' much more evocative. It represents both a mentality and a race that I've known since being a wee lad.

>any fluff associated with them in regards to actual campaign settings should be ignored

No

>as it's unlikely you're using those settings in the first place

Debateable

>It's also rather dumb to call them Dragonborn but not be born of or from dragons, isn't it?

No, because half-dragons exist and they are literally born of dragons. Dragonborn are not. It's like complaining that warforged aren't scary enough because they literally sprang fully formed from war, when that's not the case in any of their fluff.

You are quite literally making up something to be upset about that doesn't actually exist.

>The name alone evokes something strange and mythical but only by piggybacking on the myths of dragons themselves

Dragonborn myth has nothing to do with dragons except for killing them in FR. (Draconians being the obvious exception). You are, again, spinning up something to dislike out of whole cloth that has nothing to do with actual dragonborn.

Out of curiosity, did you think the Skyrim protagonist sprang out of a scaly cloaca?

>>50508035
>>50508172

Mechanics should absolutely be the framework from which story and fluff develops. You should be able to tell everything you need to portray a race in it's statblock. You should be able to tell the kinds of environments and ecosystems the game will have by enviromental status effects and encounter tables. If your game has an in depth mechanic of social interaction, it's likely going to be a more social game. If it has an insanity mechanic the campaign is going to feature mind-rending horrors. I should be able to tell the history of a place by the kind of dungeons there are, and the monsters, traps, and treasures they contain.

This is a far more OSR way of thinking though, that story emerges from mechanics, rather than mechanics facilitating story.

>>50516097
We all know the english are all ruthless pirates and the whole island of Albion should be swallowed by the tides in order to free mankind from the evil that is the Eternal Anglo.

But you can't expect an englishman to write something based on that. He will see his nation as the good guys.

>>50516204
Lotr isn't a metaphorical fantasy WW1 and Tolkien hated it when people said it was. The Shire is english because it's based on his idealized idea of the english countryside, where he spent his young days and where he met the girl he loved. The place he missed when he was in the front.

File: 1449627460531.jpg (55KB, 960x480px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 960x480px

>>50516218
>welsh
>empire

>>50516283
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29787528
well, ok, might be that i'm completely off when i remembered >>50516204
Probably just wishful thinking

t. Luxembourger

>>50516434
I meant the chinks kek, nobody outside britai cares about english subraces.

>>50514959
Elves in AD&D appear in small settlements of 20-200. They're loose social structures beholden to an overlord like a Duke, Princess, Queen, or King.

A small society like that will be rather homogeneous, and can support itself without a massive footprint. Elves are less the type to toil in fields, but instead tend enchanted gardens and groves for fruit and vegetables, and have majestic hunting parties for meat.

>>50511557
So, basically, you just wanted short scalies.

>>50516515
>and have majestic hunting parties for meat
I hate it when elves are portrayed as vegetarians, this kind of "wild hunt" adds a lot to them in my opinion.

>>50512243
What if they have a whole race of serfs, and it's not immoral because it's objectively good for the inferior serf race to be guided by their wise elf overlords

Nobility rarely has contact with the lower classes so they can still live aparted from other races while at the same time ruling them.

>>50516547
It's a consequence of how our society views "living in the nature" as opposed to how previous generations saw it. Hunting was heavily associated with other nature-loving practices in the past, just like hiking (since they're two related sports), but today it's abhorred by tree-huggers. So the tree-hugger race is made vegetarian by both those who want to parody tree-huggers and those who are tree-huggers.

>>50516404
This is an issue of imaginability. If you take total newbies to fantasy and the hobby, and gave them the words Draconian, and Dragonborn. They'll likely think Draconian is a kind of terrible law, and Dragonborn as a thing born of Dragons. Since this hobby is about our collective imagination, imaginability is a bigger deal than you take it for. Dragonborn evokes a greater idea relevant to the hobby than Draconian does. Nobody wants to play a law, they want to play a thing born of Dragons!

>Out of curiosity, did you think the Skyrim protagonist sprang out of a scaly cloaca?

No, because the Skyrim protagonist is not born of dragons, but borne of dragons. The power comes from dragons. I think that the Skyrim protagonist is a much more effective expression of the idea Dragonborn, than D&Ds Dragonborn.

>>50516435
The problem is that I don't imagine that a soldier in the trenches would find the country that he's fighting in particularly beautiful.

That said, it's not impossible that he drew inspiration from his time in Europe. The article also statest that Rivendell was based on a valley in Switzerland which is a particularly beautiful part of the world.

During the war though I would assume he would have been pretty miserable.

>>50516563
>it's objectively good for the inferior serf race to be guided by their wise elf overlords

I don't think that's how elf societies work. Elves tend towards Chaotic Good. What you're describing is Lawful Neutral at best.

The whole "elves are dicks who see other races as subhuman" is a meme. They can appear aloof at times but they are not cruel (except drow obviously).

>>50505908
>I really wish there was more diversity in the races.
>tieflings and dragonborn are too softcore
>I would love merfolk or rakshasas to be core races

http://www.furaffinity.net/

>>50516637
>This is an issue of imaginability

I'll agree there.

>If you take total newbies to fantasy and the hobby, and gave them the words Draconian, and Dragonborn. They'll likely think Draconian is a kind of terrible law, and Dragonborn as a thing born of Dragons

While you are not incorrect, this is something that is fixed in less than a minute of reading any sourcebook in which these creatures are present (I've seen it happen).

>imaginability is a bigger deal than you take it for

Here we disagree, because it takes a miniscule amount of time to show them a book and tell them to read it.
Just like if someone comes to a DnD game thinking trolls turn to stone in the sun and can't regenerate, that imagined reality for a troll will rapidly change when they cut its arm off and that arm starts crawling towards them.

>Dragonborn evokes a greater idea relevant to the hobby than Draconian does

No. Draconians came first and were a part of DnD before dragonborn or WoTC DnD existed.

>Nobody wants to play a law, they want to play a thing born of Dragons!

That's what a half-dragon is.

>No, because the Skyrim protagonist is not born of dragons

Neither are DnD dragonborn.

>The power comes from dragons.

Eating their souls, yes.

File: 701.jpg (26KB, 400x562px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 400x562px

Could someone give me a general lowdown on why elves exist? Like...I don't hate them, I just don't see the point. I realize there isn't just one type of elf, but the archetype just seems like a sort of planet of hats human, where the people are pointy and pompous. Elves are pompous, pointy people.

Is it Tolkien's fault? Did he dream up "human, but better and they know it" and that became everyone's go-to fantasy race from then on? I just feel like they rarely contribute anything.

>>50516767
You are already falling for the memes if you think that the elves purpose is to be better than humans.

>>50516808
I don't think they're better than humans, I think that was their purpose in one narrative. Tolkien's narrative. Now, I think they just get shoehorned in for no purpose at all.

>>50516767
I like to think of them as analagous to djinn in arabic mythology.
So God/the Gods made man and elves, but gave elves magic (or in a fantasy setting a lot more magic) so the two have completely different problems in life.

>>50516767
Elves the way you seem to perceive them come about because of two main factors:
- Tolkien's creative work
- the cycle of shitty appropriation by creators and shitty appreciation by audiences (you are implicated in this process)

>>50516844
>I don't think they're better than humans, I think that was their purpose in one narrative. Tolkien's narrative.
See? Shitty understanding of thematic content. Root of all evils in most media communities.

>>50516844
This is even debatable for Tolkiens elves, but they sure do serve a narrative function there. Now their purpose is being the DEX and magic user race with good senses and less CON. They often are in tune with nature. What's the problem with that?

>>50516720
>While you are not incorrect, this is something that is fixed in less than a minute of reading any sourcebook in which these creatures are present (I've seen it happen).

So Draconians are incredibly specific to a setting, whereas Dragonborn is a more general and easier to digest idea.

>Here we disagree, because it takes a miniscule amount of time to show them a book and tell them to read it. Just like if someone comes to a DnD game thinking trolls turn to stone in the sun and can't regenerate, that imagined reality for a troll will rapidly change when they cut its arm off and that arm starts crawling towards them.

If I have to tell my players to read anything that isn't rules to understand the game and the ideas it conveys, that's a failure of the game's design. Contrary to popular belief, the Players Handbook is more a resource for DMs than players.

In the case of the trolls, they come to understand what a troll is by facing it in battle, interacting with it's mechanics.

>No. Draconians came first and were a part of DnD before dragonborn or WoTC DnD existed.

Yet the idea didn't become popular enough until 4e when Dragonborn actually became a core race?

>That's what a half-dragon is.

A half-dragon is more a mutant. You're part dragon, not a whole one. It's a template for a reason, and it's not because dragons are sluts. Other templates include vampirism, or lycanthropy, both curses and diseases. Half-Dragon is in a similar vein, it's an unnatural mutation.

File: HalflingWelcome.jpg (80KB, 700x502px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 700x502px

>>50506488
>I actually like Halflings as they're this sort of meek pathetic people who are incredibly insular and comfy. The PCs are likely the outliers of Halfling society, who in their right mind would want to adventure? That's dangerous! Also their name just sounds small and pathetic, Halfling. Like they're not even whole. They've come to depend on humans so much I think they get taken advantage of in a weird not-child labour kind of way.

I personally like the 3e portrayal of Halflings as very very gregarious. They're very family oriented, but the whole family moves around. They like to talk and entertain and haggle and argue or whatever, but also known for being very open and generous. They're simultaneously known as a hard working unskilled laborers but also as larcenous tricksters. They love passionate music and lots of delicious food and drink. They may act like they don't understand what you're saying, but it's just a front, and they can have a conversation with each other right in front of you and about you while you're none the wiser.

They have a very Southern/Eastern European/Old Country feel to them.

I really don't look at them as naive Hobbit-type rural English homebodies. Granted, I started playing back in 3e and had never even heard of LOTR at the time.

It's always been Gnomes that confounded me. They always seemed like Dwarves-lite. I do like the more fey/nature spirit direction that Forest gnomes and Pathfinder gnomes go in though.

>>50516767
It's not Tolkien's fault since elves are clearly not meant to be "playable" unless your whole campaign is gonna be about elves. Look at how all elf characters are super distant in his works.

Like anon said >>50516847 they're better compared to djinns than different humans.

>>50516767
They're a popular mythological being than has been grandfathered into the hobby.

>>50516710
You can consider someone to be subhuman and objectively your inferior without being cruel. See dog-human relationship.

>>50506618
>The ones they had in Eberron - Shifters and Changlings - are good examples. *Everyone* knows what werewolves are, and a lot of people will know what dopplegangers are, so players can wrap their heads around them without reading pages on pages of speshul lore. Yet they also don't allow for the potential abuse and derailment that being an actual lycanthrope or fetch would entail, nor do they completely define the character. Seems like a good deal?

Changelings, Shifters, and Warforged all existed to provide players with playable Dopplegangers, Lycanthropes, and Constructs respectively. Prior to that, we just had a bunch of OP and clunky templates, prestige classes, and feats.

Dragonborn in 4e, similarly, did the same for dragons. In previous editions, there were a bajillion ways to play some kind of dragon-person, and all of them were poorly balanced, clunky, or poorly supported.

And let's not forget that D&D has long embraced weird races in the form of the Planetouched (Tieflings, Aasimar, and Genasi) so people could play a demon/angel/elemental without being too OP.

>>50516767
I guess it might be better to put all this another way: but why are they elves?

Bosmer from TES made a covenant with Yffre to not harm plants (esp. in Valenwood). This makes them religiously carnivorous and gives them a distinct, mostly timber-free architectural style. I like Bosmer--they seem like a neat idea, and I think they enrich the world. But why are they elves? Why not just have forest-dwelling humans be religiously carnivorous?

From the same setting, the Altmer are probably the closest to the achetypal elf. They have strong magic, long lifespans, fill a sort of elder race roll, and think they're better than other races. But why are they elves? Why not just have a different population of humans that became civilized earlier, to a greater extent, that looks down on other populations of humans? Primarily caucasian western civilization was all about that with Africa for a good solid two centuries at least.

In what context is it necessary, or useful, for an elf to be a biologically distinct entity from a human? When are they more than just distinct cultures of humans with pointier ears?

>>50516902
>So Draconians are incredibly specific to a setting

Quite, one of DnD's first settings.

>whereas Dragonborn is a more general and easier to digest idea.

Debateable, considering this entire conversation.

>If I have to tell my players to read anything that isn't rules to understand the game and the ideas it conveys, that's a failure of the game's design

I don't consider it a failure of game design to have a player read the entry of the race they choose.

>Contrary to popular belief, the Players Handbook is more a resource for DMs than players.

...No?
The player's handbook is the one resource that players have unrestricted access to, though both sides of the table are going to use it.

>
Yet the idea didn't become popular enough until 4e when Dragonborn actually became a core race?

No? Draconians have been around for literally decades, dude. Kapak and baaz have been playable. Dray have also been around for decades. 3.5 is what decided to make Dragonborn a thing, though they did it -terribly- (as literal otherkin who wanted to be a dragon so bad they prayed to Bahamut). 4e was what introduced Dragonborn as fantasy-Klingons who once had their own empire.

>A half-dragon is more a mutant

In 5e, sure.

>You're part dragon, not a whole one

No shit, that's what the 'half' stands for. It's still more dragon than a dragonborn, or anything else that isn't a true dragon, for that matter.

>t's a template for a reason, and it's not because dragons are sluts

Actually it's explicitly because dragons are sluts in every edition but 5.

>Other templates include vampirism, or lycanthropy, both curses and diseases

You don't become a half-dragon by being bit by one on a full moon. You become one because one of your parents was a goddamn dragon.

>>50516976
>But why are they elves?
You could ask this about any fantasy setting, could exchange any fantasy race, dwarves, orcs, with a human culture and it would also work. The only difference is life-span, but even here you could say that these humans live longer because magic or something.

>>50516976
Being biologically distinct from humans is the /important/ part. Now, as to why the Bosmer are /elves/, that's just up to an unwillingness to depart from familiar tropes as regards fantasy species - there's nothing really elf-y about the Mer but elves are recognizable to consumers.

File: Triggered.png (359KB, 709x447px) Image search: [Google]

359KB, 709x447px

>hob- I mean, halflings
>gnomes - which are basically the same as halflings,

I am so confused why most of /tg/ seems to think this. ESPECIALLY /tg/ the people that should know better!

Halflings:
1- Short People, and pretty much just short people and all the short person stereotypes.
2- Totally not hobbits. In which case they are often FAT short people, but YOU as a PC are playing the non-fat one. A Shorter Drizzt in a way.
3- Eberron/Dark Sun: See #1, BUT at least you have dinosaurs, or sand lizards.

Gnomes:
1- D&D/PF Gnomes: Magically infused short people that blend into shadow or empower illusions, or depending on your setting ARE living shadows.
2- FAIRY TALE fucking GNOMES! Come on /tg/! Take your pick as this category is so damn huge! But shortening it up into something manageable Living Fey that are big into tricks, or drum up contracts much akins to how devils work use contracts and stick to the letter. Only they aren't pure evil, but do have mood swings.
3- The other extreme on fairy tales. They are living motes of earth given life. Sometimes Fey, sometimes times spirits in mortal (rocky) form. If you don't want to bother with the vast read for this one at least just read Return to Oz a call it a day.
4- Inventors. The wide world of Steampunk ALL of steampunk opens up for this category. If you are in a Magic the Gathering kind of mood the Gnomes themselves are Living Clockwork.

And I can just keeeeep rambling about the options on gnomes that History and Fiction can give us. But people still mix up the fantasy staple that was around when Humans first learned to write with the "Short and uninspired fat people" made up for six ish books about a ring.

/rant
>Disregard grammar and spell errors.

>>50516976
>I like Bosmer--they seem like a neat idea, and I think they enrich the world. But why are they elves? Why not just have forest-dwelling humans be religiously carnivorous?

Because Elder Scrolls started life as a D&D setting and having lots and lots of elves is a D&D thing.

>>50516991
>Debateable, considering this entire conversation.

Dragonborn are still new. In a couple more generation of gamers, when everyone has grown up with dragonborn their entire RPG experience, they'll be accepted.

Just like people accept all the other ridiculous and far less intuitive shit in D&D that refuses to die simply because it was already there and accepted in whatever edition they started playing.

>>50516976
It makes them distinctly alien from the start. As an human player you see a bosmer or an altmer and you say "this is not one of ours". You could not know that he is religiously carnivorous and that he doesn't use timber like you do, but you will expect him to do weird shit like that from the start.

It wouldn't be the same with a human. Crazy human cultures exist, but inhuman cultures are literally supposed to be crazy.

Of course, all of this is not necessary. It's just useful.

>>50516991
>I don't consider it a failure of game design to have a player read the entry of the race they choose.

A race's entry is pointless as it's not in the context of the game world you're playing.

>The player's handbook is the one resource that players have unrestricted access to, though both sides of the table are going to use it.

Sure, but it's the DMs who are to use it more, as they're the adjucator of the rules, and the Player's Handbook contains most rules for play.

>No? Draconians have been around for literally decades, dude. Kapak and baaz have been playable. Dray have also been around for decades. 3.5 is what decided to make Dragonborn a thing, though they did it -terribly- (as literal otherkin who wanted to be a dragon so bad they prayed to Bahamut). 4e was what introduced Dragonborn as fantasy-Klingons who once had their own empire.

Yet none of those have been in the public eye. It hasn't become a popular concept until recently. Hell, already just reading the names I can see how forgettable they are.

>Actually it's explicitly because dragons are sluts in every edition but 5.

It's their magical nature that lets them breed. It can be traditional breeding through means like polymorph, or something like straight up blasting magic into something until it's pregnant.


>You don't become a half-dragon by being bit by one on a full moon. You become one because one of your parents was a goddamn dragon.

Or you're afflicted by dragonsblood as a child. Or your parent eats a dragon's heart, or other sorts of mythical origins beyond a magic lizard fucking strange things.

>>50517096
>Dragonborn are still new. In a couple more generation of gamers, when everyone has grown up with dragonborn their entire RPG experience, they'll be accepted.

Yeah, you're right, it's just jarring encountering what people think about dragonborn that has absolutely nothing to do with -anything- that actually exists about them.

>>50517187
>A race's entry is pointless as it's not in the context of the game world you're playing.

This is not the case in any DnD game I've run or played in. Some things must be altered to fit the setting we're in, sure, but pointless? No. I mean the race rules -alone- are always relevant.

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that everyone always plays in homebrew settings, all the time.

>Sure, but it's the DMs who are to use it more, as they're the adjucator of the rules, and the Player's Handbook contains most rules for play.

Of course, the DM will be using every handbook more for the reason you described. But the players still need to read the PHB and know the rules. (Though I'm not saying they need to memorize it.)

>Yet none of those have been in the public eye

Depends on what you refer to as 'public'. Among the circles I run in, a draconian is more of a staple monster than an orc.

>something like straight up blasting magic into something until it's pregnant.

[Citation needed]

>Or you're afflicted by dragonsblood as a child

This is a sorcerer.

>Or your parent eats a dragon's heart,

Also sorcerer.

>a magic lizard fucking strange things.

An actual half-dragon.

>>50508340
And then Bretons are sitting there somewhere in the middle as this ludicrous cross-breed. Also, I believe that, technically speaking, the Khajiit are actually fairly closely related to Bosmer.

>>50508731
Didn't really fit the setting. I was seriously pondering to make it human-only, then I decided to add very isolated courts of elves that stay hidden in the woods and most humans know them only as folklore and fairytales, and then I tought the Genome-like race could possibly be a nice addition and tone down a little the otherwise pretty depressing setting.

I'm pretty sure I want these elves and, of course, humans, but dwarves would just be there 'because it's a classic' and I have no interesting use for them in mind. I could cook up something (mostly doing the same I did with elves and going a little back to their folklore roots and build something from there rather than from their average portrayal in fantasy), but I'm not entirely sure I want to.

>>50516976
IN TES, Men (ie. all the human races, like Nords, Imperials and Redguard) and Mer (the elves) have different origin in the setting's cosmology, and as such very different view on many aspects of the cosmology.

Basically, the world exists becayuse the god Lorkhan tricked other gods into sacrificing their power to create it. The ancestors of elves used to be lesser spirits descendent directly from the gods, but the when the world was made they became creatures of flesh and blood and lost their immortality. As such, they see Lorkhan as an evil deity (except the Dunmer, who believe existence is suffering but by enduring it you grow stronger, and that this was Lorkahn's intention).
Humans, on the other hand, seem to have evolved naturall (well, as naturally as you can in a place like Mundus), and would therefore not exist without Lorkhan. As such, they revere him (under the name of Shor or Sheor) as the protector and creator of humanity.

Sure, you could just have the Men and Mer as two different human cultures with different religious views, but in this case said views aren't just them have different intrepretions of a common myth (well, they are that as well), but also literally true in the cosmology.

>>50511497
I dunno anon, I think the glut of races is fun. As a DM, I personally enjoy the contrast - Humans are the vast majority in most places, so it's fun to play out the sheer oddity of the eclectic adventuring party wandering through a mostly homogeneous human village. The party I DM for has a human, a gnome, a dragonborn, and a Drow who's managed to disguise himself as a half-elf.

>Tabaxi because you'd prefer to be playing elder scrolls: Elsweyr right now

Stop anon, you're making me dream dreams that I know will only be shattered when Bethesda inevitably announces TES VI: Hammerfell, which will STILL be stripped of all the interesting parts. ;_;

>>50517306
So elves (except dunmer) are basically budhist/gnostics?

>>50517248
>Yeah, you're right, it's just jarring encountering what people think about dragonborn that has absolutely nothing to do with -anything- that actually exists about them.

Because the same applies to most every fantasy race.

Dragonfolk are a thing in lots of D&D and fantasy settings and there were just as many (or more) mechanical ways of representing them.

So WOTC finally went "fuck it" and made a Dragonfolk race and made up some fluff, but people don't care about the fluff so much as the fact that there's finally a mechanically sound and officially supported Dragonfolk race to play.

The same thing happened with Warforged/Changelings/Shifters. Construct/Shapeshifting/Lycanthrope characters are old, but before Warforged, D&D lacked a balanced, officially supported option. Then Warforged came around and people started using them for every instance someone would want to play a construct character. The fluff they have in Eberron doesn't actually matter. What's important is that there's a construct race.

Same thing happened with Planescape introduced Tieflings/Aasimar/Genasi. Nobody playing one in their homebrew, or FR, or whaterver else really gives a fuck about their fluff in Planescape. They're just happy to have an officially supported fiendish/celestial/elemental character.

And nobody really gives a damn about the true fluff of Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. They just want racial mechanics to play stuff as it is in their setting.

>>50517248
>No. I mean the race rules -alone- are always relevant.

I should clarify. The rules are the only important part. I thought when you said entry I imagined the fluff and not the mechanics. My mistake.

>Among the circles I run in, a draconian is more of a staple monster than an orc.

You're quite the anomaly to be sure.

>[Citation needed]
It's their magic nature that lets them breed. There is little detail on the logistics of the how, that's left to the imagination. Polymorph can absolutely be a way of doing so, but what about dragons who can't polymorph? You get into issues of size which I think don't need to be discussed.

>This is a sorcerer.
>Also sorcerer.

How boringly compartmentalized.

>>50517459

You know, I understand that this is a thing that people do, but I can't wrap my head around not using the fluff.

If I just wanted to play fantasy that wasn't DnD fluff based, why would I be playing DnD? I could just use GURPS or even Fantasycraft if I was desperate.

The fluff is a fourth of the fun, to me.

>>50509668

dogs and wolves are just the same species, right? I don't know anything about how they can or can't breed with coyotes.

>>50507847
>my brand of wank is better than other peoples' brand of wank!

Fuck off, koboldfag.

>>50517519
Most people can't be arsed to learn a new ruleset unless it's absolutely necessary.

>>50516608
It's urbanites who have never been around animals. They exist entirely in a horrifying hive of concrete and steel, and all they ever see of "nature" is pretty woods and parks. Country folk are invariably much more connected with nature simply as a matter of course, but I can't tell you how frequently city dwellers talk down to rural folks about how they need to love nature more. Perhaps they should spend some time pondering what's more natural - eating a deer you've killed and cleaned yourself, or eating a salad made of plants grown in four different states on large-scale megafarms.

I adore nature. That's why I -participate- in it.

>>50517509
>I should clarify. The rules are the only important part. I thought when you said entry I imagined the fluff and not the mechanics. My mistake

Not your fault, I misread you.

>You're quite the anomaly to be sure.

I suppose. Most of my players either grew up reading about Commander Kang and Subcommander Slith, or know about draconians from the rest of us. To us its far from alien.

>It's their magic nature that lets them breed.

Insofar as it lets them change into other beings, yes, in that we agree.

> but what about dragons who can't polymorph?

In the games I've played and run in, if they're intelligent enough to produce a half-dragon they can also polymorph. White dragons are too dumb and bestial to see the value in humanoid offspring, but the rest generally aren't.

>How boringly compartmentalized.

Free shrugs. A sorcerer is someone who's magic comes as part of their heritage. Dragonblood getting splashed in a baby's face or your parents ritually consuming a dragon's heart is going to imbue you with magic, not cuck one of your parents out of having a physical mark on their child.

>>50515652
>The Terran; a race of hardy nomads, whose recent forays into settled civilization have been met with mixed results. With earthy-toned, often freckle-marked skin, these are the most human of all the races.

>The Nafrin, once owners of the greatest empire (in land mass, anyway) of any race, corruption, overstretched resources, and a disastrous offensive war with the Cranid have left them crippled, forcing them to unofficially roll their borders back. With azure skin and metallic hair, they cut a striking figure, especially when they bring the force of magic and might of sword to bear.

>The Ijosai, masters of sea and surf, natural born sailors with a navy without peer. Though outwardly tribal, even savage, they have a strongly knit republic, with all the nuance and intrigue that requires. With lean figures with tough, rubbery skin, a shock of white hair on their head, and often covered head to toe in wild blue tattoos, these pale folk are terrifying, even before they smile and show you the rows of shark-like teeth in their mouths.

>The Davien, who in very recent memory were subject peoples of the Nafrin, and who, through guile, diplomacy, and more than a bit of luck, have received a windfall; negotiating the peace between the Cranid and Narfin as a neutral partner. With roan/terracotta skin, digitigrade legs, and dark, curly hair, they can be imposing, but only until they break into their trademark genial smile. Beware, though, because sometimes it’s only there to keep your eyes off their hands.

File: ombresdecanaan_by_miguelcoimbra-d7plonv.jpg (152KB, 582x800px) Image search: [Google]

152KB, 582x800px

>>50517519
>If I just wanted to play fantasy that wasn't DnD fluff based, why would I be playing DnD? I could just use GURPS or even Fantasycraft if I was desperate.

Because D&D is the biggest fantasy gaming system out there with the most name recognition which means...

1) Lots of people stick with it because it's all they know and they'd rather bash it into a new setting than learn a new system. Or they mistakenly believe D&D is supposed to be a generic fantasy ruleset (because they have so little experience outside of D&D) and just accept the issues of incomplete adaptation as normal.

And...

2) Lots of people would like to play another system, but there are so many of the above that finding players is tough, so they just end up playing/DM'ing for D&D because it's better than no game at all.

And it all combines to create a fantasy gaming genre that largely defines itself by how close it is/sin't to D&D.

If people REALLY cared about fluff above all other things, D&D would not be as popular as it is.

>>50517742
>The Mortei, isolationist to a fault, they are easy to miss, literally. Natural camouflage and a tough body mean their self-sufficient lives are rarely disturbed, but those same qualities make them prized as soldiers, assassins and hunters. With bark-like skin and stout, protruding horns, the Mortei could be mistaken at first glance for a log. Mind yourself, though, they’re flesh and blood the same as any, and behind those dark eyes glints both wisdom and cunning skill honed by a rough life.

>The Elemeis, a race formed in the shape of a war god, at the hands of mad, terrible experimentation by the Nafrin. Built as a soldier race, these bestial warriors are in search of both a homeland and an identity, now that they’ve broken and rebelled from the Nafrin. With tiger-like heads and a strong, muscular body wrapped in course fur, they’re the image of animal violence, even though in reality they’re focused, disciplined, and willful.

>The Avur, the masters of courtly guile, they use social maneuvering, bargaining, trade, and outright assassination to secure the prosperity of their own noble house against other Avur, and foreign interests alike. With an a sharp beak and talon-like hands, they are impressive, though that image is often diminished by the males’ courtly trappings and feather-dyes.

>The Cranid, whose home is so inhospitable, few can navigate it safely, save for the them. Capable of spinning silk as tough as steel, they’re wildly individualistic and self sufficient. With 6 eyes, and an unsettling, gangly appearance, they may terrify the uninitiated, but most would prefer nothing more than a warm bed, some pork, and a fine drink to end a hard day’s work.

>>50517691
That's basically what I was talking about, sorry if my point wasn't clear. Vegetarianism as we know it is an urbanite phenomenon, but usually built around how the urbanite sees nature and those who live in nature (and how they believe it should be).

>>50517750

Is it really that hard for people to find players who won't branch out and learn new things?

>>50517750
>Or they mistakenly believe D&D is supposed to be a generic fantasy ruleset (because they have so little experience outside of D&D)

Actually this happened to be despite never have played D&D. Or maybe precisely because of it. Even today it's very hard for me to take a setting or a campaign seriously if we're using D&D, it automatically puts me in the "childish archetypical fantasy" mood.

File: deep_magic__new_magic_by_marcel_mercado-d6fqt6l.jpg (182KB, 1024x673px) Image search: [Google]

182KB, 1024x673px

>>50517820
>Is it really that hard for people to find players who won't branch out and learn new things?

Yep, especially true in places where there aren't a whole lot of RPG players to be found. Getting new people into D&D and D&D derivative games is easier thanks to sheer name recognition alone.

>>50517978
I've been thinking about what to do next year since I'll be going back home and while I can probably get my cousins, siblings (hell, parents might be interested in trying it at least) and maybe old friends into it, other games are so much harder. My current group is open to anything and we have a long list we want to get through, but when it's LotR nerds who have never played but surely heard of it, I don't even ask if they'd want to play a TTRPG, I ask if they want to play D&D. "The world's most popular role-playing game" is no lie.

>>50518121
>I don't even ask if they'd want to play a TTRPG, I ask if they want to play D&D.

Hell, even saying you want to play a TTRPG is likely to be met with, "What's that".

And then try having that conversation without you or the interested party saying, "...like D&D" at some point.

It's like trying to get someone unfamiliar with the subject matter into MMOs without ever referencing WOW, into CCGs without mentioning MtG, or videogames without mentioning >popular game series here<, or comics without mentioning Marvel/DC.

>>50517453
I'd say Dunmer are more like budhists, sicne at least some sects of buddhism also have the whole "life is suffering, and you should work to free yourself from the cycle of reincarnation" thing. Altmer are gnostics, believing the world was created as a prison by an malevolent deity, which is why they're actively working to fuck up the forces holding space-time stable and return everything to the stage it was before the world existed.
Dwemer (aka. dwarves) had a somewhat similar ideology, except they were also hardcore misotheists, and rather than doing something as pedestrian as unmaking the world they sought to un-create themselves back to godhood and make their own universe, with blackjack and hookers. They sort-of succeeded but not quite, so now they're a big stompy robot with the power to fuck space-time by yelling "NO!" athe reality untill reality gives up and rolls over.
Wood elves don't give a damn. They just want to live in their forest and follow the pact they made with Yffre.

>>50517306
Actually its more simple than that.

Humans and Elves were once the same race called Ehlnofey, the Human / Elves divide is a philosophical one.

Those Ehlnofey that welcomed creation and followed Lorkahn became the wandeirng ehlnofey, who would eventually (d)evolve into humans.
The Ehlnofey that felt betrayed by Lorkahn and wanted to revert back to the state of the Dawn became Elves.

This does of course not always hold true for the modern races, the dunmer as you said are more padomaic (which means closer to lorkhan, padomai, pssjjj, entropic in general) , accpeting that Lorkahn failed so others can suceed the walking ways and eventually create a new world of love (opposed to the Mundex Arena, that was created out of betrayal and loss)
on the contrary Redguards appear very Elf like in their thinking for a Human race, however not elf like enaugh to want to revert back to the dawn, which at this point only the altmer realy want. The dwemer tried to go up the steps of subgradience in other ways.
The Proto Bosmer on the other hand split into the Bosmer who eventually would settle in concrete forms (rather than the twisting shapes they originally had), while the rest adopted a padomaic outlook from Azura and became the Khajiit.

The Argonians are unrelated to all of this. The Hist their creators (in some ways, the argonians and the hist are not distinct from one another, just like your Foot and Your Hand are different but both are parts of you) actually predate the current dream and thus are not bound by the Anu/Padomai split. However they tend to lean more towards entropy.

>>50516976
>>50517017

They are elves in TES terms.
It is ridiculous to act as if this is somehow a fault with the setting, Bosmer would not make sense as Humans, in TES the Elves/Human split is the most important split in this settings metaphysics and to think that just making elves humans because from your position of focusing on DnD like fantasy it seems like a "more interresting" idea makes no sense. It diminishes the idea o the race. Bosmer are more than just "religious cannibals"; thats just one facett of what they are.

The more interresting aspect beeing that they never let go of the dawn era (an elven trait) and never realy assumed uniform, solid shapes.
Their green pact, the reason they are cannibals, is what keeps them in Humanoid shape, this is why they do not openly practice the wild hunt, because the wild hunt menas breaking the green pact and letting go of their defined forms.

>>50506413
ES Dwarves are extinct, but they existed in world

>>50506413
>>50518429
ES Dwarves were actually Human sized Elves who were Neckbearded Atheists in a world where gods are real.

They got very little to do with dwarves.

Hoenstly i think dwarves are realy stale and i dont think any setting needs them. Tolkien elves are the same but with elves there are so many possibilities for variations that they can be good.

>>50515540
No, those were better too.

>>50517432
But they've already made Elder Scrolls: Black Guy

>>50518502
>They got very little to do with dwarves.
Insular, lived underground, industrial/industrious, waged series of wars for stupid reasons only they understood, a dead/dying race, etc.

>>50506454
good, manlets are best

>>50505908

I tend to almost-always include Lizardfolk as a playable race in my campaigns, merely because the setting I run has them as fairly common in the region, typically living in the marshlands that run along the borders of the Great Elf Forest and one of the Human City-States.

Dwarves tend not to interact with surface-dwellers, except for the gnomes who build their towns around the entrances to Dwarven cities. The Dwarves allow the Gnomes to handle trade in their name, as well allowing the Gnomes to seek refuge in their underground fortresses during times of war. Neither really adventure very far from their homelands, because their homelands tend to be exciting enough, what with Dragons and Trolls and Giants.

I don't do Drow or Dragonborn, partly because I don't play 5e, and partly because I don't want to build cultures for them. Drow are extinct, and Dragonborn don't exist on this plane.

I've not really had too many edgelords in games I've run, so I haven't come across any Tieflings yet, thankfully.

>>50511143

>Masked Elves
My Nigga.

>>50505908
I have actually played a lot of non-dwarf games.

>>50519186

Call me an edgelord but I prefer rape baby half-orcs instead of a truebreeding race of its own.

File: Random Final Fantasy races.jpg (86KB, 1100x456px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 1100x456px

I let my players play whatever races they want. But the racial choice is entirely cosmetic; if your character has a high strength and constitution scores, then you could be a big strong human, or a half giant, or a minotaur, or an orc. Or maybe if you've got high intelligence you can play as an elf or tengu or human-but-with-a-crystal for a head race I just made up.

No better way to do races.

>>50519816
redpill me on vagina ears

>>50516965
and that's definitely a good thing in my opinion, D&D is at it's best when things are Gonzo amd Odd, but then my tastes in D&D seem to be of a rare sort in these parts

>>50506857
admittedly you have somewhat of a point(even if I prefer my Dragons as being very smart animals with just a tinge of sapience and magic unless they're particularly old), although in my case I usually just try and dig up a different name to call them than outright scrap the concept, personal favorites are Thrassians(the term Adventurer Conqueror King System uses for it's particular brand of Dragon Men), and Spartoi(after the breed of men spawned from Dragon's teeth by Cadmus in Greek Mythology)

>>50516965
and that's definitely a good thing in my opinion, D&D is at it's best when things are Gonzo and Odd, but then my tastes in D&D seem to be of a rare sort in these parts(many people seem to prefer their D&D to be so light on the actual fantastical elements that they might as well not bother with it being a fantasy setting or use the D&D system)

>>50506857
admittedly you have somewhat of a point(even if I prefer my Dragons as being very smart animals with just a tinge of sapience and magic unless they're particularly old), although in my case I usually just try and dig up a different name to call them than outright scrap the concept, personal favorites are Thrassians(the term Adventurer Conqueror King System uses for it's particular brand of Dragon Men), and Spartoi(after the breed of men spawned from Dragon's teeth by Cadmus in Greek Mythology)

File: lolelf.jpg (45KB, 640x414px) Image search: [Google]

45KB, 640x414px

>>50505908
>What races do you allow in your games?
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19567638&postcount=1

Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Hobbits, Kobolds, Humans, Goblins, Saurians (lizardfolk-lite)

"One for each alignment, every ability score is represented with both a bonus and a penalty, five medium races and four small ones, 3 with darkvision and 3 with low-light vision and 3 with neither. The three evil races are not as encouraged for player use as the others, but are still available and balanced enough for play"

>>50506341
you will all the time if you play in actual dungeons like you're supposed to

>>50505908
/tg/ strongly believes in HUMANS and ESSENTIALLY HUMANS BUT VERY MINOR FEATURE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT races only

If you want something interesting or dare I say, not gygaxian/tolkein, you'll get no good opinions here.

>>50521275
AND STAY OUT

>>50521275
What happened to the /tg/ that loved fucking Thri-Kreen women?

>>50521392
It's still here, but don't you dare play as anything other than human or dwarf.

File: treant.jpg (193KB, 640x883px) Image search: [Google]

193KB, 640x883px

>>50505908
ents as chaotic good fighter ?

>>50521477
To hell with /tg/, then.

The lack of sanctioned playable monster races in D&D has never not disappointed me.

I thought 5e also had goblins?

>>50521841
The fuck are you talking about? There are playable monster races all over the place.

>>50515652
my not-dwarves are dwarves, but dwarven society in mine is theocracy taken to it's logical conclusion within a pre-Renaissance world where magic and gods are real, while still adhering to D&D subraces and general rules
First of all, which caste you belong to is determined patriarchally, even your subrace is that of your mother in instances of cross-breeding, as it is legal for dwarves to intermarry between castes, although it is still rather rare due to tradition.

The entire society is based around the idea of creation, crafting, and learning said craft: long ago, the dwarven gods created dwarven society and set the commandments that they shall follow. At the very top are the Mountain dwarves as the upper caste, further split into two subcastes: the nobles and the clergy. The nobles for the most part are found in positions of bureaucracy, diplomacy, and the middle and (mostly though the) upper ranks of the military, while the clergy are somewhat more self-explanatory. They choose halfway through their education which of the subcastes they shall finish their education in, with those going for noble choose their specialization while the clergymen choose their patron deity.

Due to the fact that the learning of a craft is so central to their culture, and due to the fact that it is written in their commandments, inborn magic is considered heresy, and the dwarven apostates born with magic are shaven to show their breach of one of their highest laws

Meanwhile, as the middle caste, we have the Hill dwarves, who more often than not take up the positions of landowners, merchants, businessmen, both middle and low ranks in the military, as well as artisans and craftsmen. They usually end up with somewhat more wealth than your average Mountain dwarf, and therefore can hold some influence within a city, but cannot officially hold any political position.

>>50525551
Due to the fact that the gods themselves created their society and set down the rules thereof, all dwarves, except for apostates and heretics, consider the caste system they live in and the rules associated with it to be good, as necessary as all other laws of scripture, which is why for the most part you won't find any revolts against this divinely mandated system.

Finally we have the deep dwarves, because my setting has no Underdark. They are the lower class, and take over more menial matters, yet are probably the most numerous. They can be found in labor, working as miners, builders, and craftsmen: while most nobles have arms and armor crafted by the finest hill dwarf artisans, your average foot soldier will be armed by the work of a duergar. They also form the bulk of the dwarves armed forces, and the highest attainable military rank is that of Sergeant.

A single dwarf kingdom is always ruled by a Mountain dwarf Priest-King: the nobles of the ruling class do not get the choise between a more noble or a more clergy-oriented upbringing, and take up both position as feudal, secular ruler, as well as "dwarf pope".

Due to how the dwarves are spread throughout their castes, one most commonly finds hill dwarves taking up lives of adventure, though one does find the occasional noble bored with bureacratic life, or a deep dwarf who is overtaken by a want for more. Adventuring is considered superfluous, since in-setting the "Age of Heroes" is considered in its final years, but usually there are no direct objections

Hill dwarves are also sometimes found in settlements on the other side of the border with human kingdoms or the not-HRE, not considered citizens of the close-by dwarven kingdom. They are somewhat outcasts from the main society, yet are not considered apostates because they are not actively attempting to usurp the divine order, they are simply, due to the drawing of borders, inactive in their position above duergar and below mountain dwarves.

>>50506618
Zendikar was cool as fuck, aesthetically. Dick was diamonds throughout

>>50506847
Old school, the gods didn't allow such breeding, and ordered their respective child races to destroy the other on sight at all times.

>>50511695
Nigga, what? What part of rapist horde don't you like for orcs?

>>50512045
I can't get interested in Dwarves. I always end up with a human at the end of character conceptualization. What's the key to "Dwarfness?"

>>50512118
Magic golem things work the fields

>>50514953
Dat fishbutt

>>50505908
>>50506109

For the baseline I like
>humans
>elves
>dwarves
>goblins
>trolls

The weird options are kind of setting dependent. I'd like them to follow a theme. And I'd probably ditch the baseline to go fully with the new theme.

So you could have beastfolk arranged so you hit a few movement modes, sizes, and defenses/weapons.

Or you could have a horror setting with golems, vampires, lycanthropes, and the like.

Or you could go sci/fantasy and get some squid heads, bugs, notrobots, doppelgangers, psychic weirdos, etc.

>>50505908
I change it so there's 3 subraces for each group and merge the redundant races:

>Humans
ASI Con +1
2 Skill prof.

3 variants
Hill (+2 Str)
Plains (+2Cha)
Sea (+2 Dex)

>Elves
+1 Dex
One skill as Expertise

3 variants
Light (+2 Int)
Earth (+2 Wis)
Dark (+2 Cha)
(Basically High elves, Wood elves and Drow)

>Dwarves
ASI +1 Str
One tool as Expertise

3 variants
Hill (standard Dwarf +2 Con)
Forrest (Standard Gnome +2 Wis)
Plains (Stamdard Halfling +2 Cha)

>Goblinoids
+1 Str
Half prof in 2 skills

3 Variants
Orc (+2 Str +1 Con -1 Int -1 Cha)
Hobgoblin (+1Str +1 Dex +1 Int -2 Cha)
Goblin (+2 Dex +1 Int - 1 Wis -1 Cha)

Reptilians
ASI +1 Con
Animal senses (better hearing, sense of smell)

3 variants
Lizard-men (+2 Str)

Draconian (Dragonborn +2 Cha)

Kobold ( + 2 Dex)

No halfbreeds between the races exist (Human+Elf produces one or the other flip a coin, Goblinoid + Human is alway Goblinid and Orc + Elf doesn't produce anything)

>>50506454
6 foot tall manlets who are larger than you man.

File: 1480775194625.jpg (281KB, 1280x1012px) Image search: [Google]

281KB, 1280x1012px

>>50520059
That's a Moogle. A once proud race that could Shimon tsunamis through interpretive dance that have evolved to "OMG, SO KAWAII" comic relief and the utility of a meta character in most newer installments

Fite me on this.

>Good Human RP'ers
>Halflings
>Dwarves
>Half-Orcs/Orcs
>Elves
>Bland Human RP'ers
>Dragonborn
>Half-Elves
>Tieflings

There is no literally need for Gnomes with Dwarves and/or Halflings present. Their fey depictions can be moved to Elves, their steampunk depictions can be moved to Dwarves, and their generic shortness is better pulled of by Halflings.

Tieflings and Dragonborn should really only be mid-to-high level enemies, bosses or mini-bosses.

Goblins and Kobolds are fun as NPC's and Mobs, depending on their depiction, but really shouldn't be playable 99% of the time.

Elves and Half-Elves are fine as long as they aren't played as whores.

>>50528954
>Mobs
kill yourself

There should be only one race in any game and that's human. Stop playing these stupid snowflake fantasies you children.

>>50529389
Ah, there we go. We've been waiting for you.

>>50528141
>>50520059
.
I think "vagina ears" is the nu mou.

Ivalice races aren't much different in concept from DnD races. Humans, as always, are considered the balanced jack-of-all-trades race.

From left to right:
Viera, and all-female race that is generally seen as more agile and naturally gifted in archery. Similar to elves. (Archers, fencers, red mages, assassins)

Bangaa, the strong, less magical race, kind of like a half-orc, but more soldiery than barbariany. (warriors, monks, templars, dragoons)

Moogle: the tiny, quick-witted, trickster race. Like a halfling and gnome combined into one. Adept at both thievery and magic. (thieves, black mages, machinists, jugglers)

Nu mou: slow, weak,and generally unfit for martial disciplines. All of their classes are magical (arcanists, alchemists, scholars, sages)

>>50506749
sounds like Hyolotl

>>50506985
>What happens when orcs fuck elves?

The elves die.

>What happens when dwarves fuck halflings?

You get Stoutheart halflings.

>>50507131
AVÉ IMPERITOR!

File: goblin witch.jpg (226KB, 900x971px) Image search: [Google]

226KB, 900x971px

>>50517035
humans:halflings::elves:gnomes::orcs:goblins

>>50505977
I'm the opposite. I think that, if you're going to have a non human race, it should be so fundamentally different from human that you couldn't have the same character otherwise.

If this isn't the case, just be human. Even halflings can be just an ethnicity of human.

>>50516431
>He will see his nation as the good guys.
I mean Germany was objectively in the wrong in WW1.