MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - 「 R U B Y T U E S D A Y 」

>>50449680
If I play a spell that has you sac a creature as part of the cost and that creature has a "if ~this~ dies do x" ability, wich do I do first? Does the spell resolve first and than the trigger or the other way around?

>>50449794
The first step of casting a spell is to announce it and put it onto the stack. Paying all your costs in the order of your choosing (including the sacrifice, in this case) is the last step before the spell is considered "cast" in full. So, the death trigger would fire during the process of casting your spell (which is already on the stack), and go onto the stack once you're done casting it.

So your "When ~ dies, X" trigger is on the stack ABOVE your spell, and will resolve first.

>>50449812
Right, thanks.

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>swinging full board for potential lethal
>opponent declares blockers including pic related
>activates it's ability and sacrifices all his blockers before combat actually occcurs
>this somehow blocks my creatures without any damage being dealt to or by my creatures
now according to both my opponent and a store employee, this is a legal move, but I just don't understand why or how his creatures can be sacrificed AND block. I'd also like to make note of the fact that had he not done this all of his creatures would have died in combat.

>>50449853
He declared his creatures as blockers as a turn-based action during the Declare Blockers Step. All of your creatures that he blocked became, well, blocked.

After that, all players get a round of priority to cast spells or activate abilities before damage. He did so, by popping his team. Your creatures are still blocked, because killing a blocker doesn't unblock your creatures. It's not just "Block, all damage done instantly"; he specifically had priority to take actions inbetween, and the rules tell us that once a creature BECOMES blocked, it STAYS blocked for the entirety of that combat, even if everything that was blocking it dies or is removed from combat. This is largely so you can't just use Doom Blades reactively on blockers, you have to use them PROACTIVELY on potential blockers.

>>50449853
>this somehow blocks my creatures without any damage being dealt to or by my creatures
Unless your creatures had trample

>>50449853
What >>50449881 said. Once you declare attackers and pass priority, he gets to pick who is blocked. Once a creature is declared blocked, it's blocked. You gotta kill the blockers before hand.

>>50449881
>>50449905
that's basically how the store employee explained it, but it still doesn't really make sense from a logical standpoint. really just wanted a confirmation on whether or not I was cheated out of a win or not. magic is silly.

>>50449951
This is a game where strapping three broadswords and a warhammer to a parrot is a valid strategy.

This is a game where it takes two trained soldiers to kill a housecat, and one of them will die in the process.

This is a game where an eldritch god from before our concept of spellcraft itself can be killed by 15 doves.

Try not to get too tangled up in the logic.

>>50449794
>>50449812
Ow, and how does it work with activated abilities? For example, if I pay 2 mana and sac Yavimaya Elder, do I draw a card first and then search 2 lands or the other way around?

>>50449975
You pay 2 and sac him, putting the 'draw a card' on the stack. Your Elder died, so his ability goes on the top of the stack.
Looks like this:
>Elder death trigger
>Elder pay 2 draw card

Easy way to remember it is 'first in, last out'. So if the pay 2 goes in to the stack first, it's gonna be the last out. Anything that happens after it occurs before the pay 2 draw a card.

>>50450023
Ok, thank you.

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>>50449680
>begin of the upkeep
>krosan cloudscraper faced up in play
>gotta pay GG
>play Cloudshift on Krosan instead
>still need to pay GG for the krosan?

enchantments and counters remain on a card when it is flipped/transformed right? for example if I enchant thing in the ice with larger than life and that removes it's last ice counter, it still has the +4/4 and trample after transforming?

>>50449975
You announce that you're activating the ability and put it onto the stack. Then you go through basically the same steps as casting a spell, including "pay all costs" being the last step. Yamaha Elder's "when ~ dies" trigger will fire and resolve before the tutoring, so you'll draw THEN fetch.

>>50450101
Nope. We're past the point where "At the beginning of your upkeep" triggers fire, so the 'new' Cloudscraper won't trigger. The original trigger will resolve and tell you to sacrifice... a creature that no longer exists because the Cloudscraper on the board is a new object. It won't be able to attack this turn, though.

>>50450116
Generally, yes. Transforming a card doesn't do anything but change the copiable characteristics of it, baseline. Some cards like the Origins legends that transform into Walkers, they GO somewhere before coming back transformed, so they'd lose auras/counters. But if it's just staying where it is and transforming (like Thing in the Ice), you're fine. Ditto for Flipping, since that's just a status change like tapped/untapped.

Do note that transforming MIGHT make Auras fall off, if they cannot enchant the 'new' version of the card; for example, a Steal Enchantment would fall off of an Autumnal Gloom when it transforms into Ancient of the Equinox.

>>50450163
>>50450023
I'm this guy. I thought part of putting something onto the stack is paying all the costs, and part of the cost is sacrificing the Elder. So he's dead in the process of putting the ability onto the stack, right? So shouldn't he fetch THEN draw? Since the draw activated ability is what caused him to die.

>>50450232
The absolute first step of casting a spell or activating an ability is announcing that you are doing so, and placing that spell or ability on the stack.

You go through a series of steps for the spell to be considered "cast" and move on, or for the ability to be considered "activated" and move on, but literally every one of those steps other than "announce it" come AFTER it's on the stack.

>>50450276
Yeah, so in this example, the player is announcing he's paying 2 and sacrificing Yavimaya Elder to play it's activated ability and draw a card. The first thing that would go on the stack wouldn't be the draw? Is it because part of the cost is killing the Elder, which means the step of 'paying the cost for the ability you want to play' would happen before the ability you want to play goes on the stack?

I'm not sure if you can follow, I kind of just dumped my thought process.

>>50450346
So, I mixed up the abilities; for some reason I thought it was draw when it dies, and the sacrifice ability was land tutoring, instead of the other way around. So you'll activate it, pay 2 and sac it. "When ~ dies" trigger goes above that, you search for your lands, THEN you draw.

My bad.

>>50450367
No problem! I had to look up the card to make sure I was remembering it right, too.

Say I have Nim Deathmantle, Ashnod's Altar, Grave Titan and a Zombie/random token. If I were to sac the zombie then Grave Titan, can I bring Grave Titan back with Nim Deathmantle? Or is the sac on the stack and I can't target him?

Here's a dumb one for you.
Corpsejack Menace says if an effect would place a +1/+1 counter on a creature you control, place twice that many +1/+1 counters instead.
I looked up the rulings on it and it seems that if you put a single counter on something, you get two with corpsejack instead. Why, though? 2x1=1.

>>50450439
Nothing about Ashnod's Altar uses the stack. Paying a cost does not use the stack, and neither do mana abilities; they just resolve immediately. You can absolutely sac a Zombie for CC, then sac your Titan for CC, and he's very much in the graveyard by the time you need to be paying 4 mana for Deathmantle to bring it back.

>>50450462
>2x1=1
...what?

So if I cast a rift bolt which has suspend 1 a opponent cannot counter the suspend but can counter the spell when it comes into play correct?

>>50450545
Yes. He plays the counter spell once yours goes on the stack, which doesn't happen until it actually casts.

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>>50450545
Unless he has a way to counter abilities, just like with storm

>>50450462
each +1/1 is an individual counter. corpsejack clearly states that instead of placing X counters on target creature you place double that many counters. so if I use a kujar seedsculptor to +1/1 a creature it instead gets two +1/1s.

>>50450545
The act of suspending a card is a Special Action. It does not use the stack and it cannot be responded to.

The triggered ability that removes the time counters can be responded to; a Stifle would delay the spell for a turn. The trigger to cast the spell when the last counter is removed can ALSO be responded to; a Stifle here would keep the spell stuck in Exile forever. Finally, once that trigger resolves and casts the spell, it goes onto the stack and can be responded to, such as with a normal counterspell.

>>50450568
You can't stifle Suspend. It's not an activated or triggered ability, it's a special action.

when scrying multiple cards must they be placed back in the same order they were originally "drawn"?

how does it work if you have multiple sources of scry activating at the same time, for example having multiple 'geist of the archive' on the field during upkeep?

>>50450594i mean I figured but the card specifically states twice that many. Meaning times two, right? Two times one is still one

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>>50450716
not according to my calculator app.

>>50450661
Don't use 'drawn'. Words mean very specific things in Magic, and using words interchangeably like that is going to cause problems.

If you Scry 3, you look at the top 3 cards of your library. You can put as many of them as you like on the bottom of your library, in whatever order. Then, you put the remaining cards (if there are any) on TOP in the order of your choosing. You absolutely do not have to put them back in the same order.

If you have multiple things telling you to Scry, you perform each of those actions separately. So if you had three Geist of the Archives, you would Scry 1, then Scry 1, then Scry 1. This is not the same as Scry 3, because you're only looking at one card each time. If you choose to keep the card on top with the first Scry, then the next two are just gonna show you the exact same card.

>>50450716
I don't mean to be rude, but in what universe does 2x1 = 1?

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>>50450928
I think I figured out what he was saying. he thinks that it doubles the value of the counter, so that it's a single +2/2 counter and not two +1/1 counters.

thanks for the clarification on scrying by the way.

>>50451231
For sure. You just can't Stifle the actual act of Suspending it.

>>50451262
Yes, I read the rest of the post just after responding
I am not a smart man

Ok, if I copy a creature that using, say, Clone and the first creatures power and toughness is increased by Beastmaster's Ascension, does the Clone also copy the additional power and toughness? What about abilities added by various other cards that isn't originally on the first card? Do they? Or no? This is important.

>>50449680
Ok. So I was playing online and I'm wondering if what happened here is a glitch/bug, or if it's legit, and if it's legit, then why?
>I have a flagstones of Trokair in play
>opponent is playing Merfolk and enchants my flagstones with a spreading seas
>flagstones is an island now
>I play a second one, and the legendary rule kicks in, I have to sac one
>I sac the one enchanted by spreading seas
>I don't get to search for a Plains
I feel like if I didn't get to search for the Plains because it's a basic island now, then why was it still legendary?

>>50451272
Man, if I had a dollar for every time I misread something, I would have a lot of dollars.

>>50451273
Nope. Clone effects copy the base, unaltered creature. The only thing a copy effect can 'pick up' beyond that is OTHER copy effects. So if you used a Quicksilver Gargantuan to copy a Bear Cub that had 10 +1/+1 counters, a Rancor, and two Swords of War and Peace on it, your Gargantuan would be...

a 7/7 Bear Cub with no abilities.

If I Cloned your Quicksilver Bear Cub, my clone would ALSO be 7/7.

>>50451290
You don't sac, you just put one in the bin.

And because Legendary is a supertype. All Spreading Seas does is change the land's subtype (or add one, if it didn't have one) and override the abilities it naturally has (because land-type changing is weird). It doesn't change the Supertype.

>>50451302
Also, back in a bit.

>>50451302
Thanks

I Humble a Banisher Priest, then kill it. What happens to the exiled creature?

how would soul separator work on an ulvenwald hydra or other creature where it's power/toughness are */*?

Can I sacrifice Boggart Shenanigans to activate Siege-Gang Commander's ability?

>>50451576
looking at the two cards I don't see why not. SGC states sacrifice a goblin and BS has the sub-type of goblin. nowhere does SGC state that it needs to be a specific type besides the sub-type of goblin.

If something like Living Death causes multiple triggered abilities to go off, such as all of the creatures ETB effects, how do you decide which goes first?

>>50451350
It comes back. The ability exiled the creature for the duration of "Until this exact object leaves the battlefield". That's already in place, so hitting it with a Humble before you kill it won't do anything, unlike Fiend Hunter (which has the separate LTB trigger that would get nixed)

>>50451380
Depends on the card. Those cards have what we call CDAs: Characteristic-Defining Abilities. Those work in all zones... mostly. Things like the Hydra are fine, and will constantly update in every zone (including the graveyard) to tell you what the P/T is. Some of them require some 'input' that makes them not work correctly outside the field, like Sewer Nemesis; no chosen player means you return null values, so it's just a 0/0 everywhere but the field.

>>50451576
Yep! It just says "Goblin", which means "Goblin PERMANENT", not necessarily Goblin CREATURE.

>>50451938
Active Player (the one whose turn it is) puts their triggers on the stack first, in the order of their choosing; NAP does the same afterwards. So NAP's triggers will resolve before AP's.

>>50451956
interesting, so with hydra does the 1/1 spirit retain explicitly the */* or is it */* plus the base 1/1 of the token?

>>50452110
1/1. P/T defined by CDAs applies in layer 7a, and P/T set to a specific number (like Soul Separator) is 7b, one sublayer LATER. So that 'overrides' the CDA.

So you'd have a 1/1 Ulvenwald Hydra token with Reach, Flying, the "tutor for a land" ETB trigger, which is also a Spirit; you'd also have a black Zombie token with P/T equal to whatever the Hydra's P/T was as the ability resolved.

>>50452159
good to know.

one last question about SS. how does it treat transforming creatures? do they stay 1/1 when transforming or do they turn into exactly what they normally would (plus spirit/flying/reach)?

why does the spirit token get reach when it already has flying?

>>50452302
>How does it treat transforming creatures
It doesn't. The only things that can transform are Double-Faced Cards.

Tokens aren't cards. Therefore, tokens can't transform.

>Why does the spirit token get reach when it already has flying?
Because Ulvenwald Hydra has Reach, and the token is a copy of the Hydra (except it's a 1/1, is a Spirit in addition to its other types, and has Flying)