It's a "GM wants to play the worst game ever written"

Virt, why do you suddenly hate SW? It's good.

>>50355267
>every day until you hate it

>>50355267
>In b 4 /tg/ can't into probability
http://anydice.com/program/9e4c
Also the worst system ever is [Your preferred system here] without a doubt.

>>50355342
>It's a "everyone is Virt and I can't stop my insatiable lust for children" poster

>>50355376
That is something Virt would say. SW plays fast and fun.

My problem with Savage Worlds is that it insists to be played in a physical medium with minis and maps.

I do my gaming in the theater of the mind, so range increments and distances are better as abstraction for me then exact.

>>50355267
But that not F.A.T.A.L

>>50356664
I recall there is something mentioned about theater of the mind for explosives being mentioned with which blast template instead affects x numbers of enemies based on the size of the boom.

>>50355267
funny way to write anything written by catalyst game labs

Thats not DnD

Virt you have my permission.

That's not Dead Reign.

That's not Pathfinder though

But that's not the game I hate the most.

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Why play savage worlds when you could just as easily sit down for a game of GURPS

>>50356740
>catalyst game labs
I've heard of them but not familiar with their work.

>>50360134
Shadowrun & Modern Battletech

I've played BRP for CoC before there was Trails, and later Sormbringer because we wanted to try something old-school RAW.

It's a shit system by modern standards, like every other system from he 20th century (except OtE).

Now a guy is using it for his home brew. WTF?

That's not Fate, OP.

>>50360213

They're doing a great job of not fucking up Battletech. Their campaign system is really smooth.

I... I like SW.

But no fun here I guess...

>>50360250
>BRP/CoC
>bad system
It's probably the most venerable system in all of Roleplaying.

I'm getting this sneaking suspicion like this is a falseflag. I have never hated a system so much that I'd start a thread over it. Maybe OP is a fan of SW and just wants more discussion of it and he's hoping to harness 4chan's innate need to argue about shit to spark said discussion.

>>50360028
Because I'm not a fag nor a memester.

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But op that's not Dungeon World

>>50355267
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7ThHHOxlck

>>50360877
DW is a flawed system but holy shit that post is bad.

>>50360705
There's been a progression of anti-Savage Worlds posts and threads. This is the logical end of that progression.

Which is strange, because Savage Worlds is usually softly praised by /tg/

>>50356709
It's not VTNL either.

>>50355267

I don't think calling SW worst ever is even in the vicinity of fair, though it does have certain "features" that I fucking hate (fate points/bennies and reliance on miniatures, both of which take people out of the game's world by constantly calling attention to a concept that exists outside the narrative or to a physical object).

>>50363946
Why/how do bennies take players out of the world? I can see miniatures in a way taking you out, but how does a re-roll system do that?

>>50364025

A system that lest you use some manner of metaphysical abstract trump card to get out of bad spots takes players out of the world because the trump card is a thing outside the game world's internal logic. It's not a superpower, it's not a spell, it's not an ability or piece of equipment or anything that "exists in the game", it's just some external nonsense that bails you out X times per session. A reroll mechanic that was an explict part of the game's world would not have this problem (for example if there was a magic amulet that saves you from three deaths).

>>50355832
You're also rolling twice to see if it does damage. Toughness was a mistake

>>50364614
The game is balanced around having them, mate.

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>it's a gm tries inserting his politics in a ham fisted manner while a player brings a subtle counter

Why do you consider SW to be "the worst game ever written"? Its flaws are few and relatively minor, so what gives?

>>50364614
>because the trump card is a thing outside the game world's internal logic
Never even played Savage Worlds, but so far as it's concerned it's because they're the protagonists of a pulpy story--them being able to more reliably risky things is 100% in line with the fiction's internal logic and the tone of the game.
It's not entirely unlike how players in many games, by way of having class levels, have for more in the way of resources than virtually any level-appropriate NPC or creature. It's an assumption of the tone and composition of the fiction to be played reflected in mechanics.

And outside of narrative, it's supposed to encourage larger than life action from the players because they aren't purely gambling--they still have a degree of influence, so playing it safe, thus defeating the adventure novel, pulp action tone the game is designed to embody, is not really worth doing.

>>50361972
Savage is not nearly popular enough to make an attack thread. Iunno. Doesn't feel like it adds up.

>>50356664
Isn't that most games? If countless people manage to play theater of the mind with other games that don't abstract ranges and areas, I'm sure you could manage with SW.

>>50360028
>just as easily

After I prune out the sixteen million options I don't want from the core book.

>>50363946
>hating on meta resources

Pure autism. Every time you roll dice you're reminded you're playing a game.

>>50361972
Virt botched a horror roll and lost a character to a heart attack.

>>50364633
Which is one of the two big problems I have with Savage Worlds. They're so vital to survival that you can't use them for their nominal purpose, which is rerolling unlucky rolls. It might be different if rerolling with Bennies gave you some kind of boost the way it does in Mutants and Masterminds, like you ignored wound penalties or your minimum roll was a 4, but it's just not as attractive an option as saving them for when someone gets an inevitable knockout punch against you.

Not that this makes it a bad system, just that it's a problem that turns what could be a good system decent.

>>50364614
well, SW is not a simulationist game. Your objection is that it has non-simulationist mechanics.

>>50365352
>Not that this makes it a bad system, just that it's a problem that turns what could be a good system decent.

I think it makes a good system great, since it takes care to actually incorporate them into the game. Also you're seriously overstating their importance. They're there for the same purpose as in any other game: saving your hide and giving you an edge beyond simple numerical superiority over the NPCs.

>>50365487
That's what the Wild Die is for.

>>50365352
You only need to save one and the gm should be giving you more.

The only problem I see with bennies is that every GM seems to have a different idea on how often he should be handing them out to player and being given too little or too many drastically changes the game.

Savage Rifts is rule wise worse than Rifts if you can belive it, they took a game that has creatures on par with gods and shoehorned in balance on everything, now the diffrence between the strength of a greater demon and a juicer are gone, long range missiles go about as far as a boom gun, mystics somehow are holymen, took all the fluff and sanatized it.
Fuck Savage Rifts, wish I hadnt kick started it for so much. Gurps or d20 system would have scaled better to rifts.
SW is to short ranged and limiting a system for rifts, trappings be damned "a bolt is a bolt, is a bolt" doesnt ring true i my mind
Boooooo

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>>50364815
>it's a gm tries inserting his politics in a ham fisted manner while a player brings a "subtle" counter

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>>50367984
>It's a scam victim's remorse post

>>50367356
>The only problem I see with bennies is that every GM seems to have a different idea on how often he should be handing them out to player and being given too little or too many drastically changes the game.

I think this problem comes up with any rpg that relies a lot on GM fiat as part of the mechanics.

>>50356664
I have never once played Savage Worlds with miniatures, and never once have I had an issue.

>>50371615

When I played deadlands we had minis and terrain to show a general idea of things but no grid, it was just a visual representation of a battlefield sort of. It was neat actually.

>OP
Anon-kun, that isn't how you spell FATAL you fucking faggot!

>>50374104
But virt likes FATAL.

>>50376394
And the guy who obsessively calls everyone virt is a pedophile.

>>50367984
> kickstarting anything

>>50367356
Bennies are a mistake. They literally reward players for calling a session end when they run out of bennies, or just turtling for the rest of the session. They are a horrible idea.

>>50365246
You're missing the point you autistic faggot. And so is he. The issue with meta-resources is that they cause characters to metagame by making decisions based on abstract bullshit from outside the game. A character might choose not to attack because the enemy's AC is too high, this can at least be explained by him sizing up the monster and deciding not to fight it. But bennies have zero link to the game world. They are a dissociated mechanic. They do not belong. Please read Justin Alexander's article on dissociated mechanics before you attempt to comment in this discussion any further.

>>50377105
>Bennies are a mistake. They literally reward players for calling a session end when they run out of bennies, or just turtling for the rest of the session. They are a horrible idea.

This. Shitvag fanboys are never going to admit it though. They literally can't sit through an RPG session without having to cheat somehow.

>>50367984
Rifts was shit anyway. If anything, Savage Worlds tore off the veil of autistic rules to show it for what it really was. Sorry.

>>50364913
Actually its flaws are relatively major, as evidenced by a character with a shotgun and the marksman edge who can just stand there and literally autohit with a +4 bonus versus TN 4 and kill everything because 3d6 is a fucking shitton of damage.

>>50364626
Toughness is the only decent part of the game. Not "if it does damage" you moronic mongoloid, it's if it actually manages to kill the creature. You're still hurting the guy, just not enough to stun / kill him.

>>50361051
Why is it bad? Because you disagree with it. Because that would make it pretty bad, wouldn't it.

>>50377196
Did a person just post that the best part about Rifts is the rules?

Damn son.

>>50377216
It's true, though. Which says a lot about how shitty Rifts is.

>>50364614
I agree completely. I hate these elements that pull me out of the game world and make me think about the meta-game.

Bennies/fate points/whatevers are not like classes because classes can be easily explained within the conventions of the game world (a Gladiator is a guy who fights in the arena, not some abstract metaphysical concept).

Bennies just end up being used as backup hit points all the time anyway, defeating their stated purpose. It's a waste of time and imagination.

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>>50377352
Oh, I agree with you in every respect.

I just happen to agree with 99% of the planet when I say that Rifts is actually awesome, meaning that the rules of Rifts are actually amazing.

>It's a "GM invites us to play his custom RP game and wants one of us to be the GM so he can play his own game" episode

Fuck you Mikael. You and your shitty sci-fi adventure

>>50369766
>>50370483
>>50377387

"It's a ________" is the worst meme since "It's [current year] therefore ______".

Should be a bannable offence. My mind ignores anything starting with "it's a..." on 4chan now.

>>50377514
If you ignored it, how'd you get so mad?

>>50377105
just took a look at it: it's still a simulationist approch to RPGing. ONLY simulationist players need to be exclusively in character. A narrativist player has generally no problem working on the narrative via meta-currency, a gamist player just wants to beat the game.

>>50377105
>But bennies have zero link to the game world.
Only because you're too incompetent a roleplayer to give them one. Bennies and similar mechanics represent luck, fate, and heroic determination. So making decisions based on them is making decisions based on that gut feeling that Lady Luck is with you, or that you can succeed despite the odds - or that dread that you're about to press your luck a little too far, or the gut instinct to back off.

>>50377681
>Metagamer desperately trying to justify metagaming
Is it that time again already?

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>>50355267
Yep

>>50377365
I love bennies personally, but I'm also a huge fan of pulp.

To me, one of the most common elements of pulp is luck running out. Characters aren't really blind to their fates, they don't ask "Why did this happen to me", they ask "why did it have to be today".

Watch pulp fiction again and picture Samuel L. Jackson spending his last benny on that miraculous survival. He knows it's up for him, and he's got to get out.

That's what Savage Worlds is to me.

>>50377748
>Metagamer desperately trying to justify metagaming
Guess it really is that time

>>50377748
>metagaming

I bet you justify the inspiration mechanic in 5e as well.

Pure fucking filth inhabiting this board, might as well take it back to /vg/ if you don't care about the integrity of the game. Ever hear of World of Warcraft? You'd love it.

>>50377724
>theatre major desperately trying to pretend there's no G in RPG
Is it that time again already?

>>50377887
>in order to play a game you must first cheat at the game

>t. shitvag worlds

>>50377925
It's not cheating if you use the tools a different way to win.

>>50377925
I bet you're the kind of person who plays a thief who steals from the party and then argued "it's what my character would do!" when they get angry.

>>50377960
I bet one of your ancestors was saying something like that right before getting lynched for cheating at a card game

>>50378010
Nah. He got in a shootout and managed to flee.

>>50378023
Oh, is that how your family ended up on the west coast? I only ask because lying cheating intellectually dishonest bullshit are all from the west coast.

>>50378064
>living on worst coast
East side motherfucker.

>>50378010
>how dare you fold because I grinned when I looked at my hand!
>you're only supposed to make decisions based on your own cards!

>>50361972
>>50360705
So far I've seen:
>savage world hate thread >>50355267
>pathfinder "shitseeker" thread >>50371785
>"meta-game transaction points are shit" thread 50377197

The janitors got the other obvious ones:
http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/deleted/deleted/type/op/

It's actually looking like the deleted smug loli thread was a bot that will respond to anyone posting in it with "smart" preloaded insults.

>>50378141
>Shitseeker retard pretending his autism tantrum was a bot

That's some next level damage control

>>50378163
Dude, I'm the savage world supporter, not the pathfinder supporter. I demand you respect my desired insult language and check your insult privilege.

>>50378163
You're shitposting, you gotta stop.

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>>50377196
If this person is shooting at a person standing within short range, in open field, with no armor.

Just standing there. Being shot.

Then yeah, the shotgun will probably kill them. As it should.

>>50377376
>I just happen to agree with 99% of the planet when I say that Rifts is actually awesome, meaning that the rules of Rifts are actually amazing.
Oh, man, so this is what pure delusion looks like...

>>50377724
>Not knowing when to hold 'em or fold 'em
>Not knowing when to let it ride
>Not trusting in the heart of the cards

In all seriousness, I hate FATE points because they are so bland. I give my players the ability to change the story with narrative points.

So, rather than just rerolling, if a player wants something to work or to save a botched system, they can tell me "I can smell alcohol on the guard's breath. He must be drinking on the job." and then exploit that. I reserve veto power (refunding any spent point) if it's something stupid, and allow the players to veto with a 2/3 majority, but we've never had to use it.

>>50378362
>narrative points

t. metagamer

>>50378401
Your life must be hard for you to get so upset at things so trivial. Good luck overcoming your self-doubt.

>>50378775
On the contrary. His life is so easy that he's never developed perspective. This is one of the worst things that's ever happened to him, which is why he's so upset.

>>50378362
>It's not metagaming because the player is also paying points to be the GM sometimes!

Pathetic desu

>>50379101
Did you pay the required FATE points to project that thoroughly?

>>50379121
Stop breaking character.

>>50377810
>>50378401
t. simulationist

>>50379158
I thought you were okay with metagaming though

>>50379175
And I thought you weren't.

>>50378114

This is honestly a really good comparison.

People try to act like the meta surrounding a game isn't also part of what keeps it together in the first fucking place, and instead use it as this evilbadwrong word to encompass everything wicked about a game.

*Why* do we have a disparate batch of PCs that don't know eachother in the first place working together to do a thing? Because the players want their characters to play together to keep the game easy to follow.

http://theangrygm.com/respect-the-metagame/

A good expose on why faggots whining about the metagame are stupid and why the meta is a necessary component to any game in the first place.

>>50379301
>Metagaming is good because people who you would never let play in your game abuse it and obsess over the meta of games

>>50379301
Ut oh guys we've got a blogger here

>>50379379
>You can't agree with a guy unless you are that guy

>>50379345
Metagaming is *necessary*. All you're whining about is stuff you don't like that you're too dumb to explain or attribute another word to.

>>50379712
>It thinks metagaming is necessary
People of color me surprised

>>50379731

>It wants to ignore the outside world beyond the game table completely

Are you sure you shouldn't be in a therapist's office or something, Anon?

>>50379731
You're the kind of guy who rolls an amoral assassin for a heroic fantasy game, aren't you?

>>50379345
bait

>>50379897
Anything to distract from the fact that you can't roleplay right :^)

>>50380230

In fairness, everyone involved should've known this guy was a stupid shitposter from >>50379345 onwards.

>>50365246
>Every time you roll dice you're reminded you're playing a game.

That's why I don't let the players roll the dice. I make all rolls behind the DM screen.

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>>50380310

I don't even tell the players we're playing a game at all! I just gather them by the campfire and start tapping into the Platonic Storycraft spirit. Who needs these, like, *rules* and stuff, man?

>>50380343

I know you're jestposting, but honestly, only rule any RPG really needs is "DM decides". Everything that doesn't agree with the DM is vetoed by the DM anyway.

Sure, this rubs some snowflakes the wrong way but fuck 'em. DM outranks the rules, that's just a fact of RPGs.

>>50379301
>Angry gm
Fucking trash

>It's another "OP needs personal validation in the form of internet angries because his acerbic personality pushes everyone in his real life away from him"

>>50380425
>This post
Fucking trash

>>50377376
RIFTS is a great game world and the rules really are not that clunky, sorry you have to keep track of stuff and death can quick, Palladiums rules being universal is a great thing allows for cross system movements with out heavy conversion.
Rifts is bad ass

>>50378306
With put just saying palladium rules are shit and spread out, what is actually wrong with them?

>>50380597
>t. guy who has actually read the rifts books or even perhaps played the game
Nice to meet you

>>50380622
You too, keep the Forge lit and fuck Erin Tarn for life

>>50355342
No it's not.
It's dice system has epicicles like it was written by Apollonius of Perga: for some values of stats it's actually harder to do something when you get better at it.
It's character generation rules manage to make your choices trivial and mechanically convulted at the same time.
Most of the settings are garbage and most of the manuals's illustrations have obviously been drawn by edgy deviantart fetish teen "artists".
Perhaps it's not the WORST game ever but boy is it bad. CofD tier bad.

>>50380709
>It's dice system has epicicles like it was written by Apollonius of Perga: for some values of stats it's actually harder to do something when you get better at it.
Not really. The difficulty is almost always 4, and 4's not one of the numbers where you get worse. You do run into the issue where it's a little harder to Ace when you go from d6 to d8, but you're still significantly more likely to succeed.

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>>50380655

Where's my beyond the supernatural players?

>>50380373
you know what outranks gm fiat? player non-participation.

>>50381453
>Where's my beyond the supernatural players?
played... twice I think. then RIFTS took over.

>>50381640
Yeah it's not played very often, got into it recently and fugg it's good, refreshing after having only played DnD

>>50381453
As usual Palladium took Call of Cthulhu and did it right, just like they did for D&D with Palladium Fantasy.

Fuck yeah BtS.

>>50381875
Probably my favorite caster system, not overpowered but you still feel really powerful, all the while keeping the non-casters in the same ballpark with weapons and other skills being nearly as good, not to mention promoting teamwork like crazy.

That and the fact that the spell time slip is Za Wardo lite

>>50381875
jesus, we know you're bored but you can stop now.

>>50382101
Its just opportunistic shitposting, think nothing of it anon.

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>>50381875
>palladium
>doing anything right
Try to keep it believable, anon.

>>50382231
>palladium
>not doing everything right for 25 years straight
Not even mad, I play the longest running and best series of RPGs ever written and you play some half-baked kickstarter games that will never be good and try to make up for it by being really really permissive.

>>50382101
you must be bored

>>50382616
Where do you think you are?

>>50378251
No, faggot, he's moving. There's no penalty for shooting a moving target in Savage Worlds.

Hell even if the guy is behind cover there's still an 86% chance he'll be hit.

Also, armor doesn't fucking matter in terms of to-hit, this isn't goddamn Dungeons and Dragons you stupid piece of shit.

>>50380462
holy shit this is some top tier projection.

>>50383814
Or as we call it in the biz, TTP

>>50355342
>Virt, why do you suddenly hate SW? It's good.
virt was pushing this game when i snagged him for not understanding fucking anything about wargames
i don't think it's him
also no long winded, blocks

>>50377196
>>50383806
>>Actually its flaws are relatively major, as evidenced by a character with a shotgun and the marksman edge who can just stand there and literally autohit with a +4 bonus versus TN 4 and kill everything because 3d6 is a fucking shitton of damage.
>3d6 only at close range
>Autohit only at close range, -2 to hit at medium - 4 at long
>Has to stand completely still and cannot fire more than once per turn
Oh no, a character with a shotgun can reliably hit a SINGLE enemy if they're standing still and the targets at close range.
>Hell even if the guy is behind cover there's still an 86% chance he'll be hit.
What rank of cover are you using here? I'm guessing not heavy or near total. Note that heavy cover is literally crouching behind a waist high wall or lying next to a tree, so it's not hard to get a good cover bonus.
And we haven't even accounted for light level, other vision obscuring factors and if the enemy has some dodge edges or not. Honestly your standing still shotgunner doesn't sound nearly as broken as you're making it out to be.

>>50382231
You realize palladium has been selling copies of the samevbooks long enough to havev20th adversary editions its so good right? Palladium fantasy has such a good setting they can slow roll books out and guarantee the whole run will sell out.

Palladium is so immersive that it has books for astral life , dream life , multiple dimensions and settings andvcan easly smash them together. They have a super hero setting that actually works so a hero can beva fire ball all day without breaking character.
Palladium is fucking great, people who talk shit rarely have even cracked 1 of the books let alone played it.

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>>50377544
cuz your a cfucking faggot FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING FILTH

>>50355267
Thanks everyone! Best Savage Worlds thread I've ever seen on /tg/

>>50383814
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

>>50384129
A +2 to hit from a buckshot spray that barely exists in the real world is still far out of proportion. Shotguns are still ass-broken damage-wise because they have 3 dice instead of 2 and they are d6s so there's a good 50% chance of explosion per 3d6 roll, so you're really rolling 4d6 on average which flat-out wipe most monsters in the book.

> b-but they're not broken if literally every enemy is behind maximum cover.
> and if average joe minions have a fucking edge that requires Seasoned rank
> a-and that light level rule that fucking no one uses

You're reaching far for this. And either way, a flat +2 bonus in Savage Worlds is HUGE. The shotgun is still at a MAJOR advantage compared to the assault rifles, when in reality it is a far less viable weapon, and should be at best equal to them.

>>50355267
Jeezus shat I leave for a year and now everyone's goddamn insane? Why do we hate this system again? Weren't we all pumped for the Rifts conversion just earlier this goddamn year?

>>50384764

>>50384996
>A +2 to hit from a buckshot spray that barely exists in the real world is still far out of proportion.
Realism is a subjective quality in a game, so you're not wrong, but at least it's not a straight up cone of damage like some games have it.
>Shotguns are still ass-broken damage-wise because they have 3 dice instead of 2
Only at short range.
>and they are d6s so there's a good 50% chance of explosion per 3d6 roll, so you're really rolling 4d6 on average which flat-out wipe most monsters in the book.
Maths a bit off there, it's more like 3.5d6 on average if there's a 50% chance of an explosion isn't it?. But that's just nitpicking from me.
>>b-but they're not broken if literally every enemy is behind maximum cover.
>>and if average joe minions have a fucking edge that requires Seasoned rank
>>a-and that light level rule that fucking no one uses
Medium cover is anything under half your body hidden, Heavy is " if only a small part of the target is visible (prone beside a tree, behind a high wall, peeking around the corner of a building, etc.).". If the GM plays the Minions as retards not using the environment to their advantage then it's absolutely no surprise that something as basic as aiming with a shotgun will reliably kill them. And it's the same with the light rules. Light rules are used all the fucking time, ambushes at night are common as fuck. Don't complain about a weapon being too accurate if you arent applying the proper penalties.
>Seasoned
It's fucking nothing, that's only the second rank. so basically something like "level 4" minions can grab
If average joe minion is some low level trash with less than 4 advances, and is standing in the open in broad daylight then a level 4+ character who's taken marksman should be able to spend their entire round standing still within 12" to almost guaranteed kill them with a shotgun. Wow it's fucking nothing. If it's a fucking mook then it going down from one characters full round attack is not a problem.

>>50385068
The Rifts conversion sucks.

>>50377105
>Bennies are a mistake. They literally reward players for calling a session end when they run out of bennies, or just turtling for the rest of the session. They are a horrible idea.
I bet you enjoy spell slots and don't see the hypocrisy.

>>50385322
But is it as bad as Rifts itself

>>50385834
No, it's not anywhere near as Rad as Rifts itself