/4eg/ - 4e General

File: 1445749093415.png (12KB, 200x200px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 200x200px

Martial rapiers were a mistake.

>>50322004
>What is your favourite 4e houserule?

Versatile expertise (but not the specific expertise feats with other bonuses) and improved defenses for free.
Although I do wonder what the best level to give those out is. Level 1 is too early, I'm sure. When does the math actually break?

>>50322004
>What is your favourite 4e houserule?
Martial practices for everybody!

>>50322356
I usually opt for level 4 on expertise, 6 on improved defenses. A bit earlier than required, but those are the levels I've most often seen used to take those feats.

File: 1415913743186.png (84KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 500x500px

>>50322766
People wait until level 4 for expertise?

>>50323800
I'm sure a fighter with a longsword and one handed weapon talent or a dagger rogue could afford waiting. For some classes or hybrids an AC feat at level 1 might be more important. Can't think of what level 2 would be for them instead though.

>>50324244
From what I've seen, it varies a lot for hybrids. It's either an initiative increaser or something build-defining, with a possibility open for weapon proficiencies. You can't postpone it past level 4, though, unless it's something stupidly vital that needs level 4 like running a Fighter|Warden MC Ranger build to snag Invigorating Stride which would push Expertise to Level 6, but you wouldn't be running something that wasn't a Longsword or a Rapier until that point.

>>50324244
>Can't think of what level 2 would be for them instead though.
The 'do your striker damage a second time with an AP' feats, typically.

File: 4790205c077bb3884013eae5d21e460d.jpg (212KB, 988x700px) Image search: [Google]

212KB, 988x700px

If you are still here, "melee sorcerer" person, did you receive word from your GM on whether you will be starting at level 3 or at level 5, and what free tax feats you are entitled to?

>>50324377

I cannot see initiative feats being higher-priority than Expertise feats, class feats, defense feats, and so on.

>>50324666

Likewise, I cannot see these feats being that crucial compared to Expertise feats and similar taxes. It helps to land attacks in the first place rather than aiming for slightly better burst damage every other encounter.

>>50324880
Expertise is +1 to hit at heroic. +1 on a d20.

How heavily homebrewed are your current games?

I'm in a superheavily homebrewed 4e game and it's a bit hard to gauge the balance of characters because of it.

>>50324913
Expertise is a +1 to a d20 roll you'll be rolling a significant amount of the time as opposed to conditional feats.

File: 18ba1cff8ee8b0380e9a1f8768e0ba32.png (5MB, 1748x2480px) Image search: [Google]

5MB, 1748x2480px

Branching off from the discussion in the last thread, I am thinking of producing a series of "fully optimized" level 10 melee warlords so as to highlight the differences and similarities between such top-optimized heroic-tier warlords, and showcase which of them would fit what kinds of parties best.

Should I assume a free Expertise feat?
Should I assume a free Expertise feat *and* a free Improved Defenses?
Should I assume no free feats at all, so as to be free of house rules?
Should I assume that a Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield +1 is legal or illegal?
Should I assume that an Ioun's Revelation +1 is legal or illegal?

Would anyone even be interested in this as a showcase?

>>50324913

It can also spell the difference between an important power missing or hitting.

>>50324880
I can, but it's mostly on guys that wanna go first. I can see Battlewise coming 1st level on a Cleric|Invoker, and then Mighty Crusader Expertise. Or a Tiefling Bard|Warlord might pick up Imperious Majesty. That said, not all will take Expertise at that level, and if you're a Human why the fuck are you picking it at 4th Level, that's too delayed.

>>50325126
>It can also spell the difference between an important power missing or hitting.
And +2d6 damage can mean the difference between a monster dying or surviving long enough to get another turn.

>>50325126
I think you should run three, assuming free Expertise, free Expertise+Improved Defenses, no feats at all, and using Inherent Bonuses, but if not, then do not assume Rhythm Blade Spiked Shields or Ioun's Revelations are legal.

File: eladrin warlord.jpg (53KB, 390x316px) Image search: [Google]

53KB, 390x316px

>>50324880
>If you are still here, "melee sorcerer" person, did you receive word from your GM on whether you will be starting at level 3 or at level 5, and what free tax feats you are entitled to?

It me. It'll be level 5 and both versatile expertise and improved defenses are free.
Currently I'm looking at
1. Unarmored Agility
2. Ancient Soul
4. Accurate Staff

I noticed that ancient soul also adds the bozak draconian arcane blood damage as well. I still haven't decided between honorable blade thunder or ice, or just running no specific elemental shenanigans at all. I know for sure that I won't be using the rod of the dragonborn because I love rod of ruin and shard of the mage too much.

>>50325126
I would have both expertise and improved defenses free for the purpose of this because it will help highlight the differences of the builds, which is the whole point. That's two more feats that could be distinct depending on the build. And the more different (while still optimized) these are the better it will illustrate results.

File: 4252ac1e12a613fe47e017766b262f49.jpg (1MB, 2160x1200px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 2160x1200px

>>50325163

Even assuming you play a cleric|invoker with Dexterity modifier +0 and Wisdom modifier +5, Battlewise is not as high-priority as an Expertise feat. You lack powers that you *absolutely must go first* to effectively use at levels 1-2; Thunder of Judgment is very flexible on enemy positioning, and it is unlikely you will start off in a good position to rush in for a Silent Malediction.

I would also take Staff Expertise (as usual) over Mighty Crusader Expertise. Maintaining both a magic two-handed weapon and a magic holy symbol is inconvenient, and a cleric|invoker has only simple weapon proficiency anyway, so the character may as well be given a standard-issue Accurate Staff of Ruin.

>Or a Tiefling Bard|Warlord might pick up Imperious Majesty.
It does not seem that high-priority for a bard|warlord specifically (I would sooner take Bard of All Trades or Hybrid Talent); a better case would be a tiefling paladin or hybrid paladin opting for Imperious Majesty first. That is a good case for an initiative feat at level 1.

>>50325189

Once every other encounter, as opposed to every single time you make an attack roll.

A rogue is best-off with Backstabber at level 1, and any Warlock's Curse-taking warlock should be taking Mindbite Scorn if they qualify for it or Killing Curse otherwise.

>>50325192

If I create sample Resourceful, Tactical, Inspiring, Bravura, Skirmishing, *and* Insightful warlords, then having three copies of each would increase my workload tremendously. I would rather not do such a thing.

If you had to choose a *single* permutation of legal options, what would it be?

>>50325336

I still insist that Dragonfear is absolutely superior to spending a feat on Ancient Soul on a non-rebreather build (combat advantage and an attack penalty on enemies in a burst 5 is amazing for a minor action), but it seems I cannot convince you on this.

File: c019765d6825de02d852bb96b3929f33.jpg (1MB, 1694x1200px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1694x1200px

>>50325336

If you really, *really* want to have Dragon Breath all the same, I would recommend fire as your damage type. It will be a long while before level 11, and in the meantime, you can enjoy being an Infernal Prince with a +1 bonus to fire attack rolls (e.g. Dragon Breath, Blazing Starfall, Burning Spray, Explosive Pyre, Flame Spiral).

If you would rather plan for level 11+, take cold damage. It is a golden opportunity for Lasting Frost + Wintertouched.

>help highlight the differences of the builds, which is the whole point
And what is your stance on a Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield +1 and an Ioun's Revelation +1? If I am interpreting >>50325192 correctly, they would prefer to have neither in the builds. What of you?

>>50325126
Optimized at level 10 is kind of odd, considering I believe 4e really shines in paragon tier.

It would be simplest with no free feats, and maybe add a comment on what feat to add if there is a free feat.

>>50325458
Rhythm Blade spiked shield is a little cheesy but I'm not super opposed to it. Especially if none of these builds would otherwise want to go two handed. I actually wasn't aware of Ioun's Revelation as an item. I would be less inclined to choose that one since it's a divine boon and so probably less likely to happen and requires roleplay devotion.

And I think I'll be happy with fire, yeah. Do you think there are any paragon paths that stand out over honorable blade, if I choose not to specialize purposefully in an element? Or multiclasses other than fighter that are more important, like nabbing blistering flourish?

File: 45070739cb02cd523021b621207e87a4.jpg (446KB, 757x1090px) Image search: [Google]

446KB, 757x1090px

>>50325478

You cannot be guaranteed to start at the paragon tier. Heroic tier optimization gives a better picture of how a build shapes up at the heroic tier, since the jump from level 10 to 11 is such a huge paradigm shift.

>>50325564

The Glee-Born and the Mithral Arm might be decent choices. The latter would let you have both Lightning Cuts and Spark Form, if you still plan on bringing along a dagger.

>>50325458
Honestly? No free feats, with a comment of what to take if free feats are given.

On the initiative debate, I always considered Leaders and Controllers to have rather high priority when it came to Initiative. You just make the path a lot safer for your Striker to wreck face, which is very useful.

>Favorite 4e Houserule?

Stands. Played once in a Steel Ball Run-inspired campaign. It was too fun. 「Revolver」was probably my favorote stand of all.

Also, I'd like to ask the CharOp guys here - how do you properly optimize a Striker than can be a good Striker throughout? So it won't drop off in Paragon, or instead only take off in Paragon.

File: f046a318e7441ba887634c7c6e705098.png (2MB, 800x1035px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 800x1035px

>>50325839

>how do you properly optimize a Striker than can be a good Striker throughout?

That is a very general question. There are many striker builds that are solid throughout all tiers. As a very simple example on the lower end of the optimization scale, even a humble pure-classed warlock can be a serviceable single-target striker/controller, between Mindbite Scorn and Killing Curse at heroic, Twofold Pact and curse-spreaders at paragon, and Cursed Spells at epic.

Likewise, an assassin (executioner)|warlock charge-spammer and an Iron Soul monk only really drops off by the epic tier. A simple Brutal Scoundrel rogue or an archer ranger does not drop off that much either.

When optimizing characters for actual games, I concern myself with starting level and expected end level, then optimize from there, heavily prioritizing the early game due to the fact that campaigns can end unexpectedly.

>>50326267
Ok, supposing you are to optimize a game starting at level 6. Assuming you wanna play a Striker with a Leader bent, how would you pull that off?

File: 4770153455d45efa0e254e68c3a63b53.png (1MB, 1374x1299px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1374x1299px

>>50326291

It is very difficult to go wrong with a goliath cleric|ranger with Battle Cleric's Lore.

Strength 17+2+1, Constitution 10, Dexterity 13, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 15+2+1, Charisma 8.

Take Spiked Chain Training, Light Blade Expertise, Weapon Focus (Light Blades), and Battle Awareness. Other feats depend on what free feats you are entitled to.

Select Mighty Hew as your level 1 encounter attack power. Choose Lashing Leaves at level 7.

Wear Iron Armbands of Power and ensure that your spiked chain's enhancement bonus is up-to-date.

Enter the Kensei paragon path.

The build is very simple, yet effective.

>>50326368

Are there any other wrist items other than Iron Armbands of Power for anyone using melee?

At this point I'm wondering if I should just give permanent bonuses to the PC's melee damage since everyone takes it.

Are there any other good items that can use the slot?

File: 174a943cd0fed3ce08941acb4fef4565.png (820KB, 572x800px)

820KB, 572x800px

>>50326450

The usual top contenders for the arms slot are Iron Armbands of Power, Bracers of Archery, a Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield or Wrist Razors, Bracers of Mighty Striking, or Bracers of the Perfect Shot, depending on the build.

If you are going to implement such a house rule, make it a +1 to +6 item bonus to implement and weapon damage rolls so as to be egalitarian to all builds, perhaps with an option to trade it out for something else if the character is a "lazy" warlord.

File: 3812f1999e5614f32059fc1d37322239.jpg (441KB, 1000x1163px)

441KB, 1000x1163px

>>50325126

I am starting to think it would be pointless to compare optimal warlord builds like this after all. They would all seem to fall under the general heuristic of:

Party has good basic attacks, and better single-target attacks than multiattacks: Tactical is the best option, although you might still pick Resourceful Presence regardless.
Party has good basic attacks and good multiattacks: Strength/Intelligence-based Resourceful Presence should be your pick, though Tactical is still decent given the Tactical Assault feat.
No good basic attacks or multiattacks: Settle for Inspiring Presence.

Honorable Blade means a dragonborn can be using their dragonbreath up to three times an encounter.

I'm wondering if going with an Arkhosian Scepter in the off hand (Primordial Adept means dual implement spellcaster still works) is worth it, since it means dragonbreath will now be doing even more damage and have some real ass accuracy. On the other hand, this would mean giving up lightning cuts unless I wear a battle harness. But battle harness is good anyways so that might be fine.

Thundering breath also adds a push of 1 (thirteen CON in paragon). That makes me think if a Draconic Arrogance sorcerer can work. Plenty of good powers push (and solkara's wave from the theme). Although giving up blazing starfall or burning spray for dragonfrost doesn't seem worth it at all.

>>50326682
What's the best secondary for a warlord|barbarian, in your opinion?
Is such a build functional?

>>50322004
5e baby reporting in, does eldritch blast get two beams at level 5 like it does in 5e? Or am I stuck at one attack?

>>50326924
Things don't upgrade so linearly in 4e, and class features aren't nearly as important. It's more about power choices. At level five, you'll get a new list of daily powers to choose from.

File: be8ba9610d1d79a00a3a2b0aee812f49.jpg (784KB, 800x963px) Image search: [Google]

784KB, 800x963px

>>50326733

>Honorable Blade means a dragonborn can be using their dragonbreath up to three times an encounter.
I am not so sure this would be particularly amazing on a non-rebreather, seeing how these are your level 11 action point feature and encounter attack power.

>Arkhosian Scepter
Much too expensive.

>Primordial Adept
This means not having a +1 bonus to fire attack rolls as an Infernal Prince. Remember that you are starting at level 5, and levels 10-11 are a long way away.


>>50326748

The barbarian hybrids best with the cleric for Battle Cleric's Lore, the paladin (cavalier) for defending and even a leader heal, and the warden for defending and a multiattack from Wildblood Frenzy.

The hybrid warlord would not seem as good a pairing with the hybrid barbarian.

I would favor Strength/Intelligence as a voidsoul (for psychic resistance on a low-Will build and Empty Mind) genasi barbarian|warlord. This would give the character decent AC and let them use Reorient the Axis and Lead the Attack well.

File: 63311586f53dd32a702648f80edaf6b1.jpg (134KB, 800x570px) Image search: [Google]

134KB, 800x570px

>>50326924

Eldritch Blast indeed does not upgrade all that much. It will not be your primary at-will power as a warlock or a hybrid warlock anyway; that would be any other warlock at-will, such as Hand of Blight, Dire Radiance, or Hellish Rebuke.

>>50327008
>I am not so sure this would be particularly amazing on a non-rebreather, seeing how these are your level 11 action point feature and encounter attack power.

An immediate reaction as the encounter power and a free action attack on an action point seem perfect for a striker. It seems like you don't really care for non standard action attacks, which is really weird when building strikers.

>Much too expensive.
Huh, I assumed that since a +3 one is level 12 it wouldn't be much more expensive than a regular level 11 magic weapon. That's too bad.

>This means not having a +1 bonus to fire attack rolls as an Infernal Prince. Remember that you are starting at level 5, and levels 10-11 are a long way away.

Oh yeah, I agree that infernal prince is better for actually playing. I just enjoy planning out things so I'm thinking up a paragon sorcerer for fun. And in that instance getting another encounter power that works with draconic arrogance and resounding thunder, along with a +2 power bonus to all damage, seems pretty good.

File: 06814e8a1e152c88ea8bbea18916774a.jpg (832KB, 990x1400px)

832KB, 990x1400px

>>50327133

>An immediate reaction as the encounter power and a free action attack on an action point seem perfect for a striker. It seems like you don't really care for non standard action attacks, which is really weird when building strikers.

At level 11, assuming you have Strength modifier +5 and Constitution modifier +1, your Dragon Breath looks like the following:

Attack: 5 half level + 5 Strength modifier + 4 paragon dragonborn = +14 vs. Reflex
Damage: 2d6 paragon tier + 1 Constitution modifier + 5 Strength modifier + 2 paragon sorcerer + 2 bozak Arcane Blood = 2d6+10 (average 17).

Draconic Sidestep adds half your level as extra damage, but it requires you to wait for an enemy to flank you.

This is what the Demonskin Adept's Demon-Soul Bolts looks like at this level, assuming Charisma modifier +5, an Expertise feat, Implement Focus (Staffs), an Accurate Staff of Ruin +2 with a Siberys Shard of the Mage +1, Dual Implement Spellcaster, and a +2 enhancement bonus implement in the off-hand:

Attack: 5 half level + 5 Charisma modifier + 2 feat + 1 accurate + 2 Expertise = +15 vs. Fortitude
Damage: 1d8 + 5 Charisma modifier + 5 Strength modifier + 2 paragon sorcerer + 2 bozak Arcane Blood + 2 feat + 2 item + 1 dragonshard + 2 Dual Implement Spellcaster = 1d8+21 (average 25.5)

By the way, you get to make the attack from Demon-Soul Bolts a total of three times against a single target in a single standard action, on a paragon path whose action point feature gives you a +3 bonus to attack rolls.

When multiattacking and using non-standard-action attacks, it is important to bear in mind the quality of those attacks.

>>50327354
Demon soul bolts is excellent, I won't argue that. But dragon breath (especially with resounding thunder) is going to be working better with the sorcerer's strengths, which is spreading around damage. I know that focus fire is generally better, but there's a point where if you spread enough damage around it can end up taking down several monsters.

Dragon breath, action point, dragon breath, blazing starfall, blazing starfall is really appealing.
Demon soul bolts is one of the best powers a sorcerer can have but I like the whole package of honorable blade more. If not going with that, I'd sooner pick dragon guardian if going for a sorcerer path.

File: c89d86e0351c5d02ce78d54ed211f6b6.jpg (806KB, 1213x2000px) Image search: [Google]

806KB, 1213x2000px

>>50327505

>but there's a point where if you spread enough damage around it can end up taking down several monsters.
And it will still be inferior to doling out a concentrated spike of damage to a single enemy.

You seem to be concerned about an action point nova round, in which case I would suggest looking into the Anointed Champion. (Reserve Maneuver away the level 11 encounter attack power.) That should give you your Charisma modifier as a bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls until the end of your turn.

Since you will have multiclassed into cleric just for this paragon path, pick up a Symbol of Victory as well.

For a Dragonborn fighter/barbarian hybrid, which is better for cold optimization? Winter Fury or Honorable Blade?

I know I could go kensei with a cold weapon, but kensei is really boring

>>50328852
Winter fury only changes untyped to cold, while honorable blade would add it to anything, including the few elemental powers barbs get

File: final_fantasy_tactics_advance_conceptart_Ivqeu.jpg (51KB, 575x502px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 575x502px

Theoretically, how would you do a "beastmaster" type character?

Easy mode: Feytamer is allowed, whips are flails

Medium mode: No feytamer/whips

Hard mode: No Sentinel Hybrid

My original concept was Warlord with feytamer, using your warlord powers to pass on attacks to the beast (also, Viper's strike), go into chainbinder to make maximum use of the whip.

File: 1410902726782.jpg (5KB, 234x251px) Image search: [Google]

5KB, 234x251px

>>50330048
>Warlord with feytamer, using your warlord powers to pass on attacks to the beast
You can do that?!

File: 43d0c5a3840ebccad1d343aec0c4b877.jpg (2MB, 900x1391px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 900x1391px

>>50330048

A fey beast companion and a druid (sentinel)'s animal companion both have rather weak attacks, so passing off free attacks to them (e.g. as a hybrid druid [sentinel]|warlord with the Fey Beast Tamer theme) would be wasteful.

A better way to go about this would be to take a hybrid druid (sentinel)|shaman with the Fey Beast Tamer theme and use the spirit as the main "beast," supplemented with summoned creatures.

>>50330378

Yes, but it is very weak.

>>50330427
I was thinking about focusing on a single beast, as opposed to 3 (although, playing what is 4 "bodies", 3 of them with supportive auras does sound rather fun).

File: 0e4aa8a74fb8eb37f1e063a5a5b435cb.png (989KB, 900x1372px)

989KB, 900x1372px

>>50330626

In that case, try a single-classed shaman.

A Wisdom/Intelligence-based Elemental Spirit shaman can be a surprisingly effective enabler given Spirit Infusion.

>>50330048
Shaman

I was considering a more martial bent, somewhere where the character and the beast gets to work in tandem, preferably in melee, which is why my first idea was Warlord.

I guess a better way could be to put the enemy into a catch 22 with a polearm using defender maybe? Something like having the target marked and the PC behind the beast, so the target now has to decide between hitting the animal and triggering the mark punish, or hitting the PC with a ranged attack, triggering an opportunity from the animal.

I guess an even easier way would be vigilante justice riposte rogue, but that would depend entirely upon one at-will, which is eh.

File: 1456549702969.jpg (12KB, 229x343px)

12KB, 229x343px

>>50322004
>the Voynich Manuscript will never be deciphered

File: 4bbfb15117dce0bd8f89d2c9563efb39.jpg (149KB, 1023x1198px) Image search: [Google]

149KB, 1023x1198px

>>50331510

Nothing is stopping an enemy from simply shifting past the Medium-sized companion and attacking you in melee, or shifting away from the companion and attacking you from range.

>>50331777
Well, if it was marked then the shift would provoke.

Unless you mean the vigilante riposte rogue, in which case, good point, though it could be remedied with spiked chain training, as the opponent would still be within reach.

... actually if fey beast companion is allowed, you could do both by being a fighter | rogue hybrid with tempest style.

File: 86991723f70e7834700e90650a526571.png (498KB, 600x798px) Image search: [Google]

498KB, 600x798px

>>50331842

>Well, if it was marked then the shift would provoke.

Not from 2 squares away, short of special abilities such as that of the Polearm Master's level 16 feature.

>>50331873
That would be the idea, yes.

>>50331890
>>50331873
Also worth noting that if you were using a spiked chain (flail), it'd be pretty easy to also trip on your attacks I think, which would mean your opponent would need to spend a move action to stand up.

Or maybe some other method of tripping.

Beyond the Giant's Might Swordmage utility power, are there any other ways in 4e to increase your size?


I wish to go full kaiju mode in epic tier

File: 4cdbf4d3acaec5e04e386f60560abc5c.jpg (188KB, 793x745px)

188KB, 793x745px

>>50331890

At that point, your build is hardly different from a generic Polearm Master with Polearm Gamble.

>>50331952

This is effectively a Polearm Gamble build anyway, and such builds pair better with Heavy Blade Opportunity/Mark of Storm and Polearm Momentum to knock enemies prone as they try to get adjacent to you.

>>50332044
It still does make use of the pet in the sense that should the target 2 square away from you would attack you with a ranged attack, it'd still provoke an opportunity from him (something you can only do as a daily stance IIRC).

But yeah, I'm looking for something a bit different.

File: 537f590daf41b173e10521b7638a4a65.png (757KB, 1500x1500px)

757KB, 1500x1500px

>>50331974

Mare's Body (wizard utility 16), Form of the Night Owl (druid attack 19), Form of the Life-Giver (Emerald Guardian attack 20), Nightmare Form (Legendary Witch attack 20), Unicorn Form (Legendary Witch attack 20), Giant's Might (swordmage utility 22), Primal Ape (druid daily 25), Draconic Form (Dragon Sovereign utility 26), Draconic Rampage (Dragon King utility 26), Elemental Transmogrification (Master Hierophant utility 26), Primordial Form (Emergent Primordial utility 26), and Wyrm Form (sorcerer attack 29) all either increase your size or set your size to a certain category. Those that set your size can, in fact, make a pixie suddenly Large or Huge.

All of these are daily powers.

The Sovereign Beast epic destiny's level 21 feature makes you Wild Shape into Large beasts.

>>50332109

Not quite, because unless the beast is positioned absolutely perfectly, the target could shift away from both you and the beast and then make a ranged attack.

>>50332186
But if he shifts, he provokes an attack from you anyway with polearm master, and probably gets knocked on his ass.

File: 8b899c1928d881f1195dd570f8df48db.png (555KB, 861x1027px) Image search: [Google]

555KB, 861x1027px

>>50332206

I think I finally see what you are aiming for now. You are aiming for a build that covers the contingency of having a marked enemy within 2 squares of you, and that enemy being able to make a ranged attack against you (if it has a ranged attack).

Considering how weak a companion's attacks are, it might as well take the meager opportunity attack and be done with it.

You have other things to worry about under such a build anyway, such as enemies with reach 2.

>>50332252
Right, I'm basically trying to set up any sort of lose-lose situation so the companion has a chance to actually attack from time to time, without eating the character's (likely to be much more useful) action in the process.

>>50332186
Ok, it looks like my best bet at getting as huge as possible is to either take giant's might and primordial form or giant's might and draconic form.

Probably either being a genasi barbarian/swordmage hybrid for primordial form, or just a plain dragonborn dragon sorcerer for draconic form

>>50322004
What modules/adventure paths have the best maps for forts and cities? Are there any that take place in the Feywild?
Where do I find details on PoL dwarven holds and Eldadrin citadels?
What is good loot to offer a early heroic party that is not magic weapons/armor or simply gold?

>>50332299
You should really just use druid summons with instinctive actions if that's your goal

>>50332512
I have an Insider account, do you want me to download all the dungeon magazine issues for 4e and post a giant zip of them all in this thread?

>>50332536
All of them are already in the big mega.
I just wanted to know where to go, rather than look thru.... 70+ individual pdfs to see if they perhaps had the information I was looking for.

>>50332570
The general recommendation I'd give in your case is to read through them all

Even if you don't find what you're looking for in each individual issue, you may find things that you'll want to know later down the line

It's what I did, and I think it really helped my DM-ing

File: db598ce29e96098ded29238eb1ee4a11.jpg (1MB, 1000x617px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1000x617px

>>50332512

Your best bet for dwarven city lore is the Hammerfast book. The Manual of the Planes and Heroes of the Feywild have articles on eladrin civilization, and Dragon Magazine #366 has an article on the eladrin city/citadel of Mithrendain.

>>50332595
I would if I didn't have less than a month to craft a further game.
This got sprung on me fairly last minute.
>>50332610
>Hammerfast book
I'm actually ordering that as we speak.
>The Manual of the Planes and Heroes of the Feywild have articles on eladrin civilization, and Dragon Magazine #366 has an article on the eladrin city/citadel of Mithrendain
Cool, thanksalot.
>>50332536
What fileshare would you use? Mega makes my pc cry bitch tears, literally, but if that is what you feel comfortable doing, I'll take it.

>>50332645
I don't know, I don't share files often

But I'd still need time to download them all, so you may as well use the mega link https://mega.nz#F!REQ3iBST!3rWAyA2wX2HtrJF_CNcNBA

>>50332512
>What is good loot to offer a early heroic party that is not magic weapons/armor or simply gold?

Consumables, ritual components and rituals (feel free to homebrew some), possibly familiars, boons, RP stuff.

File: afdd83f7bcf3509800704e949453bd24.jpg (688KB, 760x1300px) Image search: [Google]

688KB, 760x1300px

>>50332512
>>50332698

Magic implements, arms slot items, feet slot items, hands slot items, head slot items, neck slot items, rings, waist slot items, and wondrous items are also "not magic weapons/armor or simply gold."

I would strongly recommend using the recommendation in page 125 of the Dungeon Master's Guide concerning a "wish list" written by each player.

>>50332820
>Magic implements, arms slot items, feet slot items, hands slot items, head slot items, neck slot items, rings, waist slot items
I mean items that are flavorful and would be found in an abandoned city. I am expressly trying to avoid things that add numbers to the players, because you are going to find gauntlets of ogre might sitting in a box in sitting area of someone's abandoned manor.
>DMG recommendation
Did that already, but I am looking for more. What >>50332698 has said is infinitely more useful, I am trying to avoid having magical items that just happen to be laying around for looters like the pcs to find.

>>50332933
If you have the offline builder, just open it up, go into "shop" and look through magic items in the categories that aren't weapons. There's lots of knick-knacks there. You could also add some quality of life magic items that are entirely useless for an adventurer, like self swirling tea-spoons or something.

>>50332933
There are a lot of flavorful magic items that don't simply add numbers. It would help to know the history of the place they're rooting around in

>because you are going to find gauntlets of ogre might sitting in a box in sitting area of someone's abandoned manor.
I am confused. You mean to say player will find such a thing or did you mean you don't want such a scenario?
And you know you could do such a thing. It's d&d after all; rich people could own all sorts of crazy things. A nobleman might have a fancy suit of armor displayed next to his hunting trophies or sword in the living room, all in an attempt to impress his visitors, and never have realized the gauntlets were actually magical. Or he may have been an avid collector of all sorts of artifacts, and simply have an entire room full of rare things he found or bought from around the world. Most of it could be mundane (but still rare) items but a few may actually ping magical. Maybe he has a little collection of animal carvings and one of two turn out to be jade horses or onyx dogs unbeknownst to anyone all those years. Hell the guy might have straight up been a retired adventurer and never got out of the habit of wearing cloaks of protection when he went out. He might have a hidden room full of relics from his old days.
There's tons of ways you could present this stuff without it seeming to be blatantly out of place

>>50332610
>Dragon Magazine #366 has an article on the eladrin city/citadel of Mithrendain
That's some good shit. The article's descriptions do make me wish it came with a map of the city though. Seems like it would make for a very unconventional city layout

>>50331510
Doesn't Sentinel whop people with a staff? Sentinel|Cleric ain't bad.

File: 10747ed8d8d3cb8603b199280f997a08.png (2MB, 1024x721px)

2MB, 1024x721px

>>50336446

>Sentinel|Cleric ain't bad.

I had proposed a cleric|druid (sentinel) here >>50243124 as an example of a top-notch leader/controller... for the heroic tier, dropping off at paragon relative to the usual perks of having a warlord in the party.

buuump
Who has ever seen a shifter or one of those weird crystal things in a game?
How surprised were you to see that Warforged exist in the PoL setting?

>>50338441
>Who has ever seen a shifter or one of those weird crystal things in a game?
One campaign I was in, That Guy played a longtooth shifter warden and I played a razorclaw shifter fighter. He whined that my Fort was all of 1 point higher than his, despite how I was playing a brawler that had lower AC. That whole campaign was a clusterfuck.

Also played in one campaign where there was a shifter ranger, but I can't remember which type.
>How surprised were you to see that Warforged exist in the PoL setting?
They are? Okay. I don't think I've ever played a 4e campaign in an established setting.

>>50338441
My first 4e character was a shifter. Seemed a natural choice for a wildblood warden

How would you properly handle risk vs reward in powers? I wanna try making some homebrew content for my game and that involves making some powers for a class, more or less. And the idea for the class is trading defense for offense.

>>50339233
Probably the same way some barbarian powers do it: Higher damage at the cost of granting combat advantage to your enemies.

>>50339302
That's the easy route I know, but i'm looking for something well, riskier. I know it's not really something that comes up in 4e, but I have been curious about something like larger penalties for bigger bonuses. Maybe it just wouldn't work well in 4e.

>>50339332
Well there's a bunch of powers that give the enemy a free MBA, which are of dubious quality. That's about as risky as a 4e power gets

>>50339233
Invokers have a bunch of powers that inflict status ailments on the caster for huge benefits, mostly they either have "Malediction" in their name or have extra effects if the Invoker has the covenant of Malediction

Examples:
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Silent-Malediction.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Despised-of-the-Gods.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Forced-Submission.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Knives-of-the-Soul.html
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Malediction-of-Blindness.html

RESURRECTION

>>50339233
Bravura warlords do something like that.

Could someone break down what can be possible in 4e in terms of a round?

Is there a cheat sheet for the system?

>>50345596
>Could someone break down what can be possible in 4e in terms of a round?

If I understood what you want correctly, read PHB1 pages 264-295.

Alternatively, if you mean "how much of a badass you can be", in a recent game I, on a high heroic striker over the course of one turn (not round), moved 14 squares, murdered a standard controller/leader monster, and moved 11 more squares back to reposition myself away from "here be flanking" before any monsters got to act.
For reference, 25 squares total in 6 seconds is about 23kph.

>>50345596
http://funin.space/compendium/glossary/Action-Types.html

You mean something like this?

There's supposed to be a very useful 4e compendium DM screen, check the pastebin links maybe it's in there somewhere.

>>50345596
Your turn:
Move or Minor Action
Minor Action
Standard Action
Action Point (an extra of one of the above actions)
Free Actions (unlimited, but only one free action attack)

Other turns:
Opportunity Action (one every turn)
Immediate Interrupt/Reaction (only one per round)
Free Actions (only if triggered, one attack only)

>>50345980
I believe the official 4e DM screens were actually very good

>>50346905
Technically you don't need to write "Move or minor action", only "move action", because every action can be "downgraded" to take the action slot of any "larger" action. So you can spend a standard action to use a move action, or a standard action to use a minor action.

Also, the "One attack only" rule for free actions only applies on a per-turn basis

>>50346942
>because every action can be "downgraded" to take the action slot of any "larger" action.
I meant to point that out, forgot to write the alternates for standard actions

>>50346942
Yeah, this isn't 3.x, where a swift is always a swift.

ded thread

>>50351920
ded game

INTvoker: hybrid or not?

File: 6622dcfc087898e2f648f74367513154.png (2MB, 1400x1000px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1400x1000px

>>50353824

The pure-classed invoker's extra +1 non-AC defense, extra trained skill, ritual casting (on an Intelligence-based class), free Hand of Fate once per day, and actually decent Channel Divinity might not be spectacular, but they are surely more useful than what most hybrid classes have to offer.

The hybrid classes that can vindicate a hybrid Covenant of Preservation invoker are the cleric with Battle Cleric's Lore and implement powers, the druid (sentinel) with an animal companion and strong controller powers, and the warlord with Combat Leader and decent "lazy" enabling powers.

>>50354264

Out of curiousity, what is *your* personal favorite class(es) to play in 4e? Let's just say the group would let you pick first before they pick the rest of your characters, so what would you choose?

File: Remilia.webm (2MB, 444x640px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 444x640px

>>50354811

I am a very context-sensitive person when it comes to building my own characters.

I would like to know:

1. What the campaign's setting is.
2. What the overall premise is (e.g. "Adventuring in the courts and the wilds of the Feywild").
3. The ratio of combat challenges to skill-based challenges (not necessarily literal "skill challenges").
4. The game's starting level and *realistic* expected ending level.
5. What starting equipment I am entitled to, and whether or not I can perform the rare item selling trick.
6. What free feats I am entitled to.
7. Whether or not dragonmarks are allowed.
8. What treasure-granting scheme will be used, and how much the GM will abide by "wish lists."

I will create something optimal, of course, but what counts as "optimal" depends on the answers to the above.

Is there a Martial at will power that uses constitution or wisdom that can be used as a melee basic attack? Or a way to make eldritch strike Martial?

>>50355023
Half elf can make a martial dilentahte cha or wis based I think

File: c65717c5214e5f93b958c90a8716a015.png (332KB, 530x800px)

332KB, 530x800px

>>50355023

I would not know of any martial powers that attack with Constitution or Wisdom, short of the Adept Dilettante half-elf feat.

Do you need the power to be usable as a melee basic attack at all times, or only under certain conditions, such as while charging?

I would not know of any way to turn Eldritch Strike martial.

What are you aiming for here?

>>50355218
The melee basic attack isn't necessary, I suppose, but would help for Battle Awareness.

I've got a WIS/CON dizzying mace/thunder hammer/ironstar mauler invoker, and I just found Mountain Thunder Rampart. It's not required but I figure if there's an easy enough way to make it work, might as well.

File: d7631b84a19f63b11adc0caa2c951144.png (4MB, 2300x1916px) Image search: [Google]

4MB, 2300x1916px

>>50355280

Mountain Thunder Student and Mountain Thunder Rampart might not be a good use of two whole feat slots.

You could multiclass into fighter via Wrathful Warrior rather than Battle Awareness, letting you dump Strength. It is not as though you will be in melee often.

Versatile Master does not seem like an especially high-priority feat for your build. Surely, one melee basic attack each encounter will be sufficient? You might even consider Knack for Success instead, which helps both in and out of combat.

What are you using for dazing powers?

>>50355488
Yeah, currently I'm not using versatile master. The only level 11 feat is dizzying mace and reserve maneuver is a higher priority. I'll probably give up on including mountain thunder rampart.

The dazing powers I've got lined up are Thunder Judgement, Word of Ruin, Silent Malediction (this miss consolation prize), Sun Shard, and Fourfold Invocation of Doom.

I used to have a dazing encounter power at seven but Rain of Blood is too excellent to ignore.

I know of rebreathers, but are there other ways of infinitely regenerating powers like that?

Hello everyone. Why is there a big correlation between people who play 4e and people who post cute anime girls?

>>50355919
Oh, that's just one person essentially using an avatar. As far as I'm aware at least.

File: da3df388d3b23709ca84ce3d5a3baac1.jpg (119KB, 600x847px)

119KB, 600x847px

>>50355656

Consider a hybrid cleric (Battle Cleric's Lore)|invoker with the following loadout of attack powers:

At-Will: Hand of Radiance (invoker 1), Sonnlinor's Hammer (cleric 1)

Encounter Attack: Thunder of Judgment (invoker 1), Astral Flare (cleric 3), Curse of the Divine Plague (invoker 7), either Death's Dread Whisper or Lightning Spike (Reserve Maneuver for invoker 7)

Daily Attack: Font of Tears (cleric 1), Silent Malediction (invoker attack 1, does not actually trigger Dizzying Mace on a miss due to that feat requiring a hit, but is great anyway), Fourfold Invocation of Doom (invoker 9)

I take back what I said in >>50355488 about not being in melee often. With such a power loadout, you will be, and Sonnlinor's Hammer can back you up there. This helps vindicate trying to qualify for Battle Awareness.

File: 1458331858148.png (2MB, 900x1200px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 900x1200px

>>50355919
See >>50356021
Other anons may post cute animus, but 2hu is the one that treats it like a necessity for every reply.

>>50354982
>1. What the campaign's setting is.
Homebrew
>2. What the overall premise is (e.g. "Adventuring in the courts and the wilds of the Feywild").
Let's say city, wilderness and occasional feywild/shadowfell romps can be expected
>3. The ratio of combat challenges to skill-based challenges (not necessarily literal "skill challenges").
50/50 split
>4. The game's starting level and *realistic* expected ending level.
levels 6-16
>5. What starting equipment I am entitled to, and whether or not I can perform the rare item selling trick.
One lower, one equal and one level +1 magic item, no rare item selling trick
>6. What free feats I am entitled to.
Versatile expertise and Improved defenses
>7. Whether or not dragonmarks are allowed.
Not allowed
>8. What treasure-granting scheme will be used, and how much the GM will abide by "wish lists."
GM follows a wishlist of one weapon/armor/neck item and let's say three other slots of your choice. Magic items can't be purchased with gold rewards.

File: f73b7b18a68a8275ce5c63e0a9f38bb7.jpg (644KB, 700x700px) Image search: [Google]

644KB, 700x700px

>>50356600

Under such parameters, the two builds I would favor are:

A. Staff of Defense wizard focused on Arcana optimization and Arcana swaps.

B. Virtue of Cunning bard with Bard of All Trades and Bardic Knowledge. Ask the GM for Signs of Influence.

Both would be either shardminds or eladrin. Both would also focus on Will-targeting psychic powers for Resplendent Gloves, a Headband of Intellect, and Psychic Lock. Both would have an Ioun's Revelation +1 for 680 gp.

Both would have good combat capacities and a broad array of skills for "city, wilderness, and Feywild/Shadowfell adventures."

For a str/dex fighter/barbarian hybrid leaning towards charge-focus, what are the strongest hybrid talent feat options?

>>50357106
With Fighter Combat Talent for Two-Handed Weapon Talent, you qualify for Pinning Challenge, letting you immobilize on every BA against a marked target. So you need a way to mark before you charge.

Other than that, if allowed, there's the Arena Training expertise feat sharing cheese and Barbarian Armored Agility for some bonus AC.

>>50358582
But charging barbarians don't use basic attacks, they use howling strike

>>50356946
What would you build for a more combat oriented survival game in Darksun? Or a political one in Eberron with purchasable magic items?

So I'm building a character and arrived at a bit of a conundrum.

Originally I was going Fullblade as a Goliath Serene Blade Runepriest, because giant swords are cool, but then I noticed this feat-

http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Goliath-Greatweapon-Prowess.html

Going for this instead of Fullblade Proficiency, I'm getting 1d10+2 before stats instead of 1d12, and the only thing I'm losing out on is high crit.

It was pointed out that I could get a bonus from Weapon Focus for the Fullblade, but that'd be investing two feats into it vs one. Any thoughts?

>>50359397
Doesn't howling count as a BA, when used for a charge?

>>50360599
You're a leader, so I assume you have better feats to take than two on weapon damage.

>>50360817
No, it "can be used in place of a melee basic attack"

That does not make it an MBA, but it does gain all the benefits of being a charge attack

>>50360817
Can be used in place of, not counts as
>>50360847
Runepriests are terribly unsupported, so maybe he actually doesn't

>>50361008
Runepriests have the rune feats, which get better the more of them you have. If he wants to take rune feats, any feat saved is worth it.

File: 1d88f8356e58f3dcd412f2a987860d91.jpg (263KB, 1864x2048px)

263KB, 1864x2048px

>>50357106

I would actually wait until the paragon tier to take a Hybrid Talent feat, at which point I would select either Barbarian Armored Agility for a great AC and Reflex improvement, or Fighter Combat Talent (Arena Training) for an AC boost and weapon proficiencies.

>>50360257

Do both games use the exact same character creation parameters?

>What would you build for a more combat oriented survival game in Darksun?
What races am I allowed to play? Could I be a shardmind from the Crystal Forest?
Do I have free selection of magic items at character creation?
Do I have to choose a Dark Sun theme, or can it be any theme?
Am I allowed to play a hybrid cleric under the rationale in the sidebar in page 9 of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting, or is the divine keyword completely barred off?

>Or a political one in Eberron with purchasable magic items?
Probably the exact same bard and wizard builds above, albeit with more feats sunken into skills and rituals. Alternatively, I might play a changeling/doppelganger or a sparrow hengeyokai with the Spy theme and Bluff (Spy 10) and/or Streetwise (Secrets of the City) optimization, probably as a rogue (thief), a warlock (hexblade), or an assassin (executioner), simply because such Essentials basic attack-spammers have some decent noncombat class features.

File: 2a233b008d05b8cd1f8d474cc19a3438.png (1017KB, 1200x1560px) Image search: [Google]

1017KB, 1200x1560px

>>50360599
>>50361100

Runepriest attacks are mostly low-[W] (even daily attack powers like Rune of the Undeniable Dawn), so this might actually be a decent feat to take, assuming you have nothing better to select, like an Expertise feat, defense feats, Mark of Healing, Markings of the Victor, and so on.

>>50361110
You wouldn't consider two-handed weapon talent?

Charging barbarians tend to want to use a gouge, wouldn't the +1 accuracy on a +2 proficiency weapon be tempting?

File: 547a3ff66705d5230ed75caa1346ce85.jpg (716KB, 888x1187px)

716KB, 888x1187px

>>50361150

Belay what I said in >>50361110, actually. This is the heroic-tier feat progression I would take, assuming a free Expertise feat:

Free: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
Level 1: Hybrid Talent (Fighter Combat Talent [Arena Training]) for gouge and any other weapon
Level 2: Surprising Charge
Level 4: Superior Reflexes
Level 6: Superior Fortitude
Level 8: Iron Will
Level 10: Weapon Focus (Spears)

This lets the character charge with reasonable damage while still having solid defenses with which to actually defend.

>>50361210
What if the DM gives versatile expertise and imrproved defenses out for free?

File: 58250973_p0.jpg (797KB, 636x900px)

797KB, 636x900px

>>50361253

I personally think it is a bad idea to hand out Improved Defenses for free; if anything, it should be "a single defense feat of your choice for free."

The choice between Improved Defenses and a full trio of defense feats is a difficult and well-balanced one; simply handing out Improved Defenses makes it mostly pointless to aim for the other defense feats.

Should avengers go 16/16 or 18/14?

On one hand they use wisdom for a lot of things, not just accuracy and damage, so 18/14 is tempting, but on the other, 16/16 gives more AC, and Avengers need extra accuracy far less than other classes thanks to oath of enmity

File: e954745554567ffd6e987ab4b2363d3f.jpg (1013KB, 1000x1333px)

1013KB, 1000x1333px

>>50361660

16/16. Oath of Enmity makes the extra accuracy mostly unneeded, and an 18/14 array undermines all other ability scores.

>>50361110
What races am I allowed to play? Could I be a shardmind from the Crystal Forest?
No.
Do I have free selection of magic items at character creation?
No magic items at start, wishlist still applies.
Do I have to choose a Dark Sun theme, or can it be any theme?
Anything you can reasonably fluff to fit.
Am I allowed to play a hybrid cleric under the rationale in the sidebar in page 9 of the Dark Sun Campaign Setting, or is the divine keyword completely barred off?
No divine, arcane brings suspicion, etc.

File: b10c6836c99efa78c48a756ecf68c070.png (1MB, 1800x900px)

1MB, 1800x900px

>>50362855

A. Elf Primal Guardian druid (protector), Centered Breath monk, archer ranger, ranger (hunter), or ranger (scout).

B. Wilden Primal Guardian druid (protector).

Such characters can pull their weight in combat while having the skills necessary to blaze through most of the skill-based wilderness survival mechanics in the Dark Sun Campaign Setting's GMing chapter.

File: Arcane Archer female.jpg (173KB, 800x1131px) Image search: [Google]

173KB, 800x1131px

I want to make an arcane archer build that is either a striker or controller. And is capable of actually using weapon attacks, instead of just a Moonbow Dedicate implement.

How do I do this?

>>50364357
Well, depends on when you get online, but there's that one Bard paragon path that lets you make martial attacks using CHA, regardless of what the original stat was. And Bard just so happens to be an Arcane class as well, and I think there are archery bard stuffs anyway. So Bard + your striker multiclass/hybrid of choice could work.

>>50364482
.... I was thinking of Daring Blade but that's melee only. My bad. Euphonic Bow does look rather nice though.

>>50364357
IIRC the basic build is generally Bard|Ranger or Bard|Rogue. Won't be the stereotypical Arcane Archer, but it can make use of a ton of stuff - it's got very good damage capabilities while still having very good leader powers. I'm a particular fan of MwaO's Annie Oakley when it comes to those builds.

If we're dealing with more Arcane than Archer, I'd wager the best pick available is probably a Warlock|Artificer. Star Pact and Sorcerer-King Pact would be my two picks for Warlock Pacts. Capable of picking one target, laying some hurt on it and allowing your friends to capitalize further on it. Battle Engineer would be my Paragon Path pick if only for Greater Magic Weapon because holy crap that's strong.

Yeah, the Arcane Archer idea isn't truly possible in 4e. Honestly if I had more time or skill in my hands I'd do a genuine Arcane Archer homebrew, filling a different role with an entirely different playstyle.

>>50364979
>the Arcane Archer idea isn't truly possible in 4e
You can just be a wizard with a moonbow implement/feat

>>50365194
>And is capable of actually using weapon attacks, instead of just a Moonbow Dedicate implement.

Emphasis on that.


Should've gone with "your Arcane Archer idea" - but the general stereotypical Arcane Archer which mixes both arrows and spells into one thing isn't something exactly possible in 4e the way most people picture it.

>>50365216
Seeker...attempts to

>>50365244
It's actually not too terrible with that feywild stuff they added in the dragon mags

>>50365216
I think bard is entirely reasonable for arcane archer. He's got a bunch of weapon /arcane attacks. Not a striker, but has a bit of control.

>>50365315
Definitely. The most "Pure" Arcane Archer is IMO a Half-Elf Valor Bard with War Chanter with Dilletante as Magic Weapon picking a bunch of Artificer stuff and then probably having a few Warlord MCs thrown in because why the fuck not.

File: a95b2d08c7899fc403a136a8e4e8a7c9.jpg (707KB, 836x1136px) Image search: [Google]

707KB, 836x1136px

>>50364357
>>50364482
>>50364979
>>50365216

Why not a pure-classed artificer or artificer|warlord (a.k.a. "killswitch") wielding a greatbow or a superior crossbow?

A properly optimized Magic Weapon-spamming artificer or artificer|warlord does not actually need any implement powers. Instead, they use Magic Weapon ad nauseam on their turns, occasionally throw out a buff like Punishing Eye or Icebound Sigil, and make off-turn arcane weapon attacks.

If this is not an arcane archer, then what is?

It might not be a striker or a controller, but it is a heavily offense-oriented leader.

>>50366041

It's neither a striker nor a controller, which is one of the requirements. I know it's 2hu I'm talking to here but there's a very clear requirement that probably wants to be achieved mechanically in there rather than try and refluff it - as much as I advocate for refluffing myself.

Honestly, Controller is more possible than Striker (Striker generally being a Bard|Rogue or Bard|Ranger); while Controller has more than a few options - if starting at Paragon, Half-Elf Fake Skald with one of the two Seeker At-Wills is pretty powerful, and even then it’s pretty good – not spectacular, but can do its job decently well. At low Heroic, it has a few tools that can be very controller-y. For example, a Slow+Daze+Can’t Shift combo is pretty devastating, plus it’s still got Arrow of Warning, for example, and Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade. At high Heroic, it can use any of the Level 5 powers, such as the one that grants Domination. Feyjump Shot adds in harder control, and you can have up to 3 turns of very powerful control. Then, as you go up, you start mixing up your Leader abilities with Controller abilities.
On another example, you can run an Artificer|Warlock as a possibility mainly using control-heavy powers, even with some powerful leader things hidden in there. Artificer|Wizard is another possibility, although I think that one’s kind of boring, but on the other hand you’ve technically got your Arcane Archer controller.
The third option is Resourceful Magician which I’m not exactly warm to but hey, it’s got the best control out of any options I mentioned technically speaking.

File: acae4981b08247449eaa2e59feb72ad8.png (616KB, 800x1000px) Image search: [Google]

616KB, 800x1000px

>>50366378

I am unsure if a bard|ranger or a bard|rogue would fit >>50364357's request, because the "striker" side is being contributed solely by martial powers, and the actual arcane-keyword ranged weapon attacks are simply a mix of controller and leader. (Furthermore, they lack any Virtue of Prescience riders on them, though such riders are admittedly a hassle to acquire due to Charisma/Wisdom anyway.)

Likewise, a paragon-tier half-elf bard spamming *primal* ranged weapon attack powers, not arcane, which calls to question if the character is truly an arcane archer.

Could >>50364357 please give more specifics to their request, such as starting level, expected end level, amount of free feats, what exactly they mean by "arcane archer," and whether or not the striking/controlling has to be accomplished by arcane-keyword ranged weapon attacks?

MAJESTIC WORD

>>50366778
Sorry it took so long to reply, had a power outage.

>Level 11
>Inherent bonus
>Free versatile expertise and improved defenses.
For clarity, I'm fine with having some implement or non-arcane powers, but I want the majority of powers to be arcane.

I have a very strong preference for arcane at-will powers, at least. It doesn't feel like an arcane archer if I'm just spamming twin strike.

File: 57556628_p0.png (2MB, 1000x1464px)

2MB, 1000x1464px

>>50369192

These are the only arcane at-will powers that can have a range of "ranged weapon" or that can be used through a ranged weapon:

- The artificer's Aggravating Force and Magic Weapon
- The bard's Jinx Shot
- The bard (skald)'s at-will powers
- The wizard's Flame Arrow, but it is a terrible power

That is just about it, sadly.

It seems that you will have to settle for a leader if you wish to be an arcane archer spamming arcane ranged weapon attack powers. I would recommend a genasi or warforged Intelligence/Constitution artificer or artificer|warlord (thank goodness for Combat Commander) spamming Magic Weapon.

>Inherent bonus
What becomes of your starting wealth, then?

>>50369192

Bards. Cunning generally is seen as better. Dip into others for useful things because there are pretty good Paragon Paths that help with controlling, Resourceful Magician is always good... most of the good Ranged powers don't actually use Wisdom as much. Rhyme, Jinx Shot and Arrow of Warning don't rely that much on Charisma. You can pick up a mixture of powers as well, especially given Combat Virtuoso.

Artificers can do decently as well - if you need more control, I'd look into MCing Wizard and using Wizard dailies because holy fuck they're strong.

File: 613a23a0a800a0870d4d37261c5f10db.png (3MB, 1500x2000px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1500x2000px

>>50369707

Virtue of Cunning bards are predominantly implement power-focused, and might take a songbow solely for Arrow of Warning.

In comparison, an artificer or an artificer|warlord would be spamming arcane ranged weapon attack powers round after round.

Is making a charge-optimized character that isn't a slayer worth it?

I love charging, but I hate the idea of giving up my dailies and most of my encounter powers to do it

File: 70bd5f66ab11f1a6d8c99deb3228568a.jpg (2MB, 2347x1709px)

2MB, 2347x1709px

>>50370619

Assassin (executioner)|warlocks, avengers, barbarians, fighters (slayer), fighters (weaponmaster), rangers (scout), rogues (thief), warlocks (hexblade), and wizards (bladesinger) all have their own brands of charging builds.

Even Charisma/Constitution ardents have charging builds.

Remember that pixies and revenant pixies make the best chargers due to their Streak of Light racial feat.

>>50371014
I was planning on going warforged for the warforged juggernaut PP, rather than pixie.

Also because I want to be the pain train

>>50338441
Shardmind are pretty neat. Played a Shardmind Bladesinger once for reasons I can't recall and enjoyed it quite a bit.

How do I boost my arcana checks as high as possible? I want to guarantee getting the maximum effect from the sage of ages level 26 utility every time

File: d5eb4d3a771f424cba9e3c76ac012b8a.png (712KB, 680x879px)

712KB, 680x879px

>>50373176

It is fully possible to have a passive, always-on Arcana +38 at level 11:

+5 half level
+6 Intelligence modifier
+5 training
+2 racial
+2 background
+4 power (Order Adept)
+2 item
+5 Moran's Eye
+3 Skill Focus
+2 sprite familiar
+2 Academy Master paragon path
Total: +38

By level 26, you can have:
+13 half level
+8 Intelligence modifier
+5 training
+2 racial
+2 background
+4 power (Order Adept)
+5 item
+5 Moran's Eye
+3 Skill Focus
+2 sprite familiar
+2 Academy Master paragon path
+3 epic-tier wizard (mage)
+6 Sage of Ages
Total: +60

This is enough to hit the 61 effect on Trick of Knowledge even on a natural 1.

>>50373624
How the hell are you getting a level 14 implement at level 11?

File: cddbd876374e61007c8d46afba5c3144.png (1MB, 697x999px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 697x999px

>>50373849

Rare item selling.

>>50369192
Refluff the dagger implement as a specially designed arcane bow, not very useful for physical attacks because it's meant to shoot spells. Then be a sorcerer of some sort, perhaps an elementalist.

>>50374077
You can make ranged weapon attacks if you become a regular sorcerer with dexterity, but elementalist models the arrow-shooting feel more accurately.

You could also use the bow as an implement with any arcane class with a monk multiclass, I think.

But the original request was using it as a weapon for arcane attacks.

>>50322004
>What is your favourite 4e houserule?

Ban all Expertise feats and/or other math-fix feats.

They are _super_boring_ and shouldn't compete with more interesting feats.

>>50374263

Then how do you fix the math?

>>50374263
>expertise feats are boring
Staff Expertise is a great feat even without the number fixes attached

>>50374317
So's flail.

>>50374324
So is spear, and tome, and light blade

Spear and light blade are boring, but good, while tome is really interesting

>>50374362
Tome expertise is hilarious on a Shaman. Just grab Witchcraft Initiate for the proficiency and some extras that fit the shaman fluff nicely and you're golden. to have a spiritual murder beast that always gets Combat Advantage.

Is there a chart or something for expected AC per role at various levels?

>>50374574
No, because different classes have different AC values even within the same roles. For example, a monk will always have more AC than a sorcerer, because a monk has unarmored defense and unarmored agility, while sorcerers only have unarmored agility.

>>50374671
I'm just asking for an average to shoot for. Just something considered good/middling/bad for the level

>>50374418
Do you actually need to hold a tome or even be proficient with one to get the secondary benefit? It never actually mentions that requirement while other expertise feats usually say "while wielding" the implement in question

>>50374718
That takes a little bit of calculation, but not much

Rest assured, "enough" AC at any level is the equivalent of someone starting with 16 dex or int wearing hide armor for all classes but defenders with inherent bonuses. So 16 AC at level 1, 17 at 2 and 3, 19 at 4 and 5, 20 at 6 and 7, 22 at 8, 23 at 9, 24 at 10 and 11, 25 at 12 and 13, 28 at 14 and 15, 30 at 16 and 17, 31 at 18, 32 at 19, 33 at 20, 34 at 21, 35 at 22 and 23, 37 at 24 and 25, 38 at 26 and 27, 40 at 28, 41 at 29 and 42 at 30

This loses accuracy as it goes along, because you're expected to be picking up feats and features that boost your AC higher, and heavy-armor-wearers swing over and under it thanks to the difference between level up bonuses to stats and the level values that come with boosted AC for heavy armor. But as a general rule so long as you remain on or above that value at that level, you should be fine.

>>50374836
Shouldn't "enough AC" be calculated in comparison to the desired monster accuracy against that AC at each level?

>>50374857
Yes, but the list shown is closer to what you'd actually see

>>50374857
So for example, if you want the monster to hit you with 60% accuracy, your AC needs to be level+14. (This is actually the monster AC formula.)

Is it possible to make a striker-psion or a striker-invoker?

I like how those classes work, and not enough actual strikers use force, psychic or radiant damage

>>50375499
I think striker-psion came up in a discussion recently, and the general consensus was that it's not really possible. You can be a controller psion who deals okay damage, at best.

Dunno about invoker tho.

I think warlock | paladins got you covered on psychic + radiant damage, but I guess that is quite a small slice.

HEALING WORD!

bump

File: FullplateWarlord.jpg (206KB, 724x1332px) Image search: [Google]

206KB, 724x1332px

>>50378260
>healing word
>not inspiring word
clerics get out

Also, what would make better use of this Paragon Path?
>http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Sainted-General.html
A warlord mc paladin, a hybrid warlord|paladin, or a paladin mc warlord?

>>50379004
I'd definitely go hybrid. That lets you both use your divine challenge as at-will and hand out a fuckload of attacks, immediately granting your allies benefits from your lvl 11 feature.

I don't think there's a better attack-granter than the warlord, but you could also try Bard | Paladin hybrid and multiclass into warlord from there.

>>50379109
>I don't think there's a better attack-granter than the warlord

God this just reminded me of one the funniest things I've ever done with a Warlord.

>Level 12 Warforged Warlord with Commando Captain PP
>One other PC is a Fighter.
>Fighting a boss monster thing(an enlarged human heart with tentacles)
>Respond to an attack with Vengeance is Mine to bring the Fighter in, we smack it.
>On my turn, Instant Planning to buff our attack, Blindside Assault so we can both smack it again.
>Action Point and Provoke Overextension to hit it and force it to hit me
>It attacks me, triggering the Fighter's mark punishment, getting it smacked again.
>It's attack misses, allowing the Fighter another attack
>The result is me and the Fighter tandem-smacking the shit out if it, it finally gets an opening to try and strike, which result in it just getting the shit smacked out of it again.

Didn't kill it with that sadly, but we came pretty fucking close.

So a group of friends and I have been discussing a potential 4e rewrite, and something we've been pondering recently is racial stats.

While racial stats do help give each race more definition, they are also limiting in terms of concepts. Stats are so important in 4e that a race which boosts both a classes relevant stats is a really significant advantage.

While removing racial stats altogether has been discussed, replacing them with more powers or passive traits, another option is letting a player choose a single +2 from amongst the three each race has available to it, and instead shifting the second +2 to be a function of your class, so you can always boost your primary stat and will generally be able to boost a relevant secondary. The two +2's not being able to be assigned to the same stat, of course.

Any thoughts?

>>50379238
Vengeance is mine + guardian theme with a fighterbro in tow is my reason for living.

>>50379289
The second one (one stat bonus from race, one stat bonus from class) sounds good, if you want to keep stat bonuses at all.

>>50379289
I was thinking about implementing the same thing, but allowing the second +2 to be any other stat regardless of class. The part that stumps me is what to give humans to make up for it. Let them have both the extra at will and heroic effort?

>>50379238
>Blindside Assault
>Provoke Overextension
It's illegal to make more than one free action attack in one turn, so I hope you were doing this before the errata.

>>50379359
I'd assume so. I don't remember hearing about it before then and the DM didn't say anything.

>>50379358
A +1 bonus

>>50379289
>shifting the second +2 to be a function of your class, so you can always boost your primary stat and will generally be able to boost a relevant secondary.
What counts as primary if you're a dual stat hybrid?

>>50379359
It's a stupid, unfun errata. Should have changed powers that were a bit OP into granting oppotunities/immediates instead, if it was that much of a problem.

>>50379238
>>50379356

I adore Vengeance is Mine. Mostly for getting to call out the powers name when I use it. I feel like I should accompany it with a maniacal laugh every damn time.

>>50379421
Yes!

I also just like RP-ing it as grabbing onto the weapon while grinning maniacally.

>>50379419
>Should have changed powers that were a bit OP into granting oppotunities/immediates instead, if it was that much of a problem.
That would make things even more unfun. The one free action attack solution was best

>>50379549
How? Making them opportunities essentially has the same effect, except the ones that remain free action attacks can be stacked with them still.

>>50379419
>>50379792
Making the less broken Free Action attacks No Actions instead would work. In fact, that's what they did by fixing Power Strike.

>>50379792
In the case defenders, using immediates would forfiet their punishments and hurt their ability to play their role. As limited free actions a defender isn't forced into that choice.

>>50380032
You want to heap your free attacks on strikers anyways, also, aura defenders.

>>50380057
Immediates like curtain of steel and startling offfensive are part of a striker's strategy as well. And aura defenders a shit

Majestic Word!

>>50382097
The slide is nice, but clerics and warlords can attach way more utility to their heal than bards can

>>50383502
Battle Cleric's Lore is some bullshit.

>>50383715
Only on hybrids, because it completely bypasses how hybrid classes have the lower of the two armor proficiencies.

On full-class clerics it just brings a weak leader class up to par

>>50383789
Even without the armor, it adds an all-round untyped +2 to hit to the heals.

>>50384069
Which is fine, because clerics have no attack-granting powers, which means it's still doing less overall than what a warlord, bard or shaman is doing

Healing Infusion!

>>50385519
This reminds me of that time we were playing an Eberron campaign in 4e (I was introducing a new group to it) and the Artificer threw a bitch fit because he couldn't create a robot army.

Thank fucking god I'm never playing with that group again.

>>50386936

A 4e artificer can totally create a robot army. You just need to secure a huge amount of funding, infrastructure and assistance, giving up your life as an adventurer to become an arms dealer. Then again, given the political landscape and the lingering fears about Warforged, it likely wouldn't be much more safe of a career path.

>>50387004
It can also _actually_ create a robot army with summoning spells.

He just couldn't do it at 3.

>>50322004
The weapon system is boring since there are a few "best weapons" that you'll see everyone using, like Rapier and Fullblade and other tired shit, and having so many different weapon types makes giving out magic items in a realistic way kind of impossible because like 5/6 times or something, a "random" magic weapon is only really gonna be worth its sell value in gold.

Simplify weapon table to 5 or 6 roughly balanced "weapon archetypes" and then do "counts as" for everything that drops.

I never really did a proper writeup for this because it takes a bit of work to divvy up which feats and class features go to which archetype, so we just kind of did it on the fly based on who was playing and what they wanted to use.

>>50387025
I want to play a warforged artificer at some point and reflavor all the summons as other warforged under my character's command.

And MC wizard for even more sweet, sweet summon improving feats.

File: pic1218032.png (73KB, 414x447px)

73KB, 414x447px

>>50387156
Yo.

Gamma world weapon tables gots you covered.

Use that, and add 1, 2 or 3 special qualities based on if it's simple/military/superior.

>>50387156

That's another thing we've been discussing in the aforementioned 4e rewrite, how to fix weapons.

Removing variable accuracy seems like a good plan. We're trying to remove feat taxes and other 'necessary' mechanical bonuses wherever possible, so also excluding most of the weapons because they're +2 rather than +3 base accuracy seems like a worthwhile change.

>>50387406
If you really want to simplify things, an interesting thing to do for scaling would be to calculate stats Black Hack style, where you have a base value for attacks/defenses that is modified by level difference instead of scaling with level for both sides.

>>50387926
That basically forces the GM to do all the to-hit calculations, or the players will learn every monster's level.

It ultimately does the same thing, but it's less neat in terms of who gets what information and how to delegate work at the table.

>>50387406
Here's how I'd do it

All weapons have one of three "size" values (off-hand, versatile, two-hand) and one of three "quality" values (simple, military, superior) which decide their weapon die size

Off-hand simple: d4
Versatile simple: d6
Two-hand simple: d8

Off-hand military: d6
Versatile military: d8
Two-hand military: d10

Off-hand superior: d8
Versatile superior: d10
Two-hand superior: d12

On top of that, every weapon is either melee or ranged (ranged weapons can't be off-hand inherently, and can't be used two-handed if versatile), and has a weapon "type": light blade, heavy blade, spear, axe, hammer/mace, pick for melee, and bow (two-handed only), crossbow, sling for ranged.

Beyond this weapons have "features" which can be added to weapons by lowering their die size, features include brutal 1, high crit, reach, small (versatile and two-handed weapons only), thrown (melee weapons only) and defensive (off-hand/versatile superior melee only) with superior weapons getting one feature for free. (one feat for effectively +1 damage is pretty paltry)

I'd probably do more with this, but I'm unsure where to go with it from here

>>50388206
Well, the DM knows the monster stats and player level is supposed to be the same. He can then just quickly calculate the defense/offense (even quicker than the business card), and you cut out modifier scaling.

>>50388234

Why the restrictions on ranged weapons? Pistol crossbows would make sense as offhand ones.

>>50388348
Because that takes a feat

Specifically, the rogue feat "Two-fisted shooter" which would let you use versatile crossbows as if they were off-hand weapons, instead of only letting you do so with hand crossbows specifically

>>50388374

That seems a bit arbitrarily restrictive to me, but to each their own I suppose.

>>50388415
Not tat anon, but it doesn't really make sense with how off-hand weapons are utilized by 4e anyway.

>>50388415
>>50388425
The idea is to keep the system as close to 4e's functionality as possible, allowing for specific feats to retain their usefulness, like githzerai blademaster (proficiency and bonus damage with military heavy blades and superior versatile and two-handed heavy blades), and all the rogue stuff that relates to daggers (replace "dagger" with off-hand simple light blade/off-hand military light blade with the thrown property)

>>50388705
Great. Now try to make a fullblade.

>>50388735
two-hand superior heavy blade with high crit as the free superior feature

>>50388746
>1d10
Why devalue weapons that exist, instead of just making new ones?

>>50388761
Disregard, I suck cocks.

>>50388761
superior weapons aren't downgraded; they have their extra property at no cost

>>50388761
>"with superior weapons getting one feature for free"

Thus, what I just described was a 1d12, two-handed heavy blade with high crit, which is exactly identical to the fullblade

Weapons that can not be made in this system include daggers (d4 simple off-hand weapon but with the thrown property), bastard swords (versatile superior heavy blade with a d10 damage die but no extra features), any brutal 2 weapon, and weapons with +2 proficiency, because this system was devised to erase them

>>50388234

Making people trade damage against properties is a bad idea. It's not an equal exchange and will lead to a very small number of optimal options being used.

>>50388234
Shit, I forgot flails, add them to the weapon type list

Also, weapon types can be considered features for the sake of adding them to weapons at the cost of damage die size

>>50388789
It's difficult to balance weapon features

Reach, thrown and defensive are far more powerful features for a weapon to have when compared with high crit, brutal or small, I know this, but I have no idea how to make them all available without breaking the system

So I've been chatting with a few friends about the prospect of building a character for having ludicrous reach, probably starting as a Goliath Fighter using a polearm and aiming for this PP and ED for +1 Reach each and the latter granting permanent threatening reach.

http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Stoneblessed.html
http://funin.space/compendium/epicdestiny/Eternal-Defender.html

The question I have for the thread is how would you make use of a character like this? What sorts of fun tricks and combos could you pull that would actually benefit from having such a huge reach?

>>50389024
Wardens can mark punish within their reach. Be that instead.

>>50389024

Eternal defender doesn't give permanent threatening reach

Aside from that, just take the standard polearm momentum set and use that. You might be better off doing it as a warden though, considering that wardens can enact mark punishment against any enemy in range, while fighters need their enemies to be adjacent to them

>>50389024
Like everyone else said, warden uses reach better. They also have form dailies that increase reach further, giving you a maximum of threatening reach 5 when you use summit advantage

What are some cool warden builds?

File: 003fb7272e6c22b52395363c43016fd6.png (3MB, 1920x1080px)

3MB, 1920x1080px

>>50389033
>>50389152

The problem with warden reach builds is that, short of certain warden forms, a warden still needs to be adjacent to enemies to mark them with Nature's Wrath. This demands a rather prickly positioning scheme.

>>50391788

The single best Strength/Constitution warden build is a dwarf (for the minor action second wind) with a craghammer, Dwarven Weapon Training, Crippling Crush, World Serpent's Grasp, and Sudden Roots, spamming as many slowing and immobilizing attacks as possible which deal great damage and knock enemies prone.

Of course, Strength/Constitution wardens have a terrible non-AC defense crisis, and they do not even qualify for Superior Will easily.

Strength/Wisdom wardens are perhaps better as actual defenders due to their more viable defenses. Goliath seems to be the best race for them, what with +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, +1 Will, and a defensive racial encounter power. They lack the Crippling Crush combo, so they are probably better off working towards Superior Will, Superior Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes early on.
Check with your GM how Wildblood Speed works, because if it can resolve before a mark enforcement power, then it single-handedly elevates the Wildblood warden into the best warden by the paragon tier.

Parry Gauntlets are a great item for any warden. Check with your GM if you can take the Mark of Warding feat, because that should raise the attack penalty on your mass-marking and give you an extra +1 AC with Earth Shield Strike.

>>50392035
Would it be worth hybriding paladin with warden?

You'd get a lot of non-melee marking prowess.

I'm not sure what feats would be good though.

File: 4195e4cd8af5a60e623969315e764a47.jpg (376KB, 1280x1024px) Image search: [Google]

376KB, 1280x1024px

>>50392303

If dragonmarks are allowed, I would say that the best paragon-tier reach-abuser is a half-orc paladin with Blessed Strength, Weapon Proficiency (Greatspear), Mark of Storm, Battle Awareness, Polearm Momentum, Polearm Gamble, Rushing Cleats, a Lightning Greatspear, and, preferably, an Eberron Shard of Lightning.

This way, you can mass-mark opponents with Call of Challenge and Castigating Strike, then keep them away with your Polearm Gamble Attacks which slide 2 and knock prone.

The problem with this, as is standard for most Polearm Gamble builds, is that enemies with reach 2+ or any ranged attacks do not have to establish adjacency to hurt you.

Is there an SRD of 4E someone could use to copy the bulk of the combat mechanics out of? Yeah I could just copy the text, but that's a LOT to type.

>>50392927
You could just copy from
http://funin.space/index.php?search=a&folders%5B%5D=glossary

>>50387406
>4e rewrite
Son, let me speak about my tries.

First one was an OGL retroclone with math fixed. We basically just granted a (new type) tier bonus to non-AC defenses equal to tier (+1, +2, +3). Gave up because of rewriting the shit to avoid GSL and to fit SRD/OGL.

Second was a condensed version with powers having double features that could be chosen like the Monks power and scaled (even Encounter and Daily) so new powers offer real new possibilities and not just Brute Strike 2.0. Gave up because of the whole balance work.

Third was just a "Rules Cyclopeadia" type to unite all powers and feats of each class in only one thematic PDF, already with the last errata. Gave up because CB loader exist.

Fourth was a try to eliminate the false power grow since everyone, friend or foe, grow at the same rate. This was meant to get a Bounded Accuracy feel of 5e to allow use of lower level monsters instead of facing a recoloured, leveled up version that only exists because of the math (and powers that are only powered versions of previous ones). Had not gave up, but is on hold.

My advice: ditch race ability bonus, give them to classes so all Fighters start with Str+2. Leave races with support and situational powers.

File: a7d8b079fc1c90d532806b4894089f74.jpg (1MB, 900x1391px)

1MB, 900x1391px

>>50393006

The problem with eliminating racial ability bonuses is that significantly more characters will be pixies for super-jumping, draconians for super-jumping and then Draconic Arrogance at the paragon tier, githzerai for Githzerai Blade Master, genasi for Shocking Flame at the paragon tier, half-elves for Versatile Master at the paragon tier, revenants for racial feat access and durability, bugbears for Large weapons, sparrow hengeyokai for noncombat flight, and so on and so forth.

>>50393130

The idea, in the given context of a full rewrite, is to give every race a full complement of interesting, flavourful and potent powers, traits and feats in order to give them their own mechanical identity beyond what a couple of stat boosts provide.

File: db3769b93370f711eef99f7749e1091b.jpg (343KB, 1000x745px)

343KB, 1000x745px

>>50393179

I wonder why you would even need races at that point, instead of just giving all characters a free choice of "racial" skill bonuses, a selection of a "racial" power, and an extra feat or two to cover feats that provide passive "racial" abilities.

>>50393259
I'm not sure what makes you say that. The explanation given in >>50393179 means that the races will still have their own identity, just not tied to their stats.

File: d9c8912afe63dee78b413c773edac91b.png (826KB, 816x1061px) Image search: [Google]

826KB, 816x1061px

>>50393307

Given how reflavoring-friendly 4e is, I see no reason to continue to preserve races as a mechanical concept, rather than just letting everyone build their characters however they please and taking heritage feats like "sylvan senses [heritage]" or "sylvan fleetness [heritage]" to represent racial abilities.

>>50393259
The same could be said about ability scores: pick 2 of a different NAD for +2.

>>50393362
Races, as a mechanic, are more akin to kits with pros and cons filling a theme. Elves are swift ones, eladrin are magical ones.

>>50393451
This.

If you wanted to, you could attach a tag to them, like how classes get roles. Except these'd be more like "tools".

"Swift", "Silent", "Perceptive", "Precise", "Lucky", etc.

There's also the unique race powers, that with enough feat support can change the way some classes play. I'd honestly consider making some race powers at-will or at least recharge more often than encounter so you can build more around them from the get go (with other adjustments for balance of course; no at-will dragonbreath rebreather from the get go please).

>>50393683
This way, with classes filling a role that can be refluffed and themes (for lack of a better term) as race substitute mechanically wise, races become more fluff play as the alignment became, allowing a swift (elf-like) Dwarf that grew on a hill clan that used hit and run tactics to face giants alongside a stout (classic) Dwarf.

That's if you want to go full hardcore on the rewrite.