Arms & Armor

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There that should help the fancy axe situation too.

Welp, I'll never need to search for warhammers ever again.

>>50281103
I can scan some cataloug I bought this year, given that the thread survives until tomorrow.

>>50281644
>>50281604
So is a larger blade better for "soft" targets and a smaller blade better for "hard" targets?

I'm trying to think of the logistical value of different axe heads.

I know you guys are posting hammers and all, but does anyone have a picture of a two-handed kriegsmesser?
ty

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Has anything else like this bronze age Scandinavian scimitar ever been found up north or is it just a weird one-off?

>>50283795
>>50283812
>>50283841
>>50283858
Thanks :3
Hopefully this thread'll stay alive for tomorrow morning

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>his paladin doesn't smite the wretched with a hammer

Explain yourself.

> warhammer = can opener

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>>50281668

>>50282378
IT'S NOT A COMPETITION SVEN.

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I need more bascinets

>>50283477
>I'm trying to think of the logistical value of different axe heads.

Money. Also larger heads are more showy, so you can use them as standards more easily.

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Are they even as effective as people make them out to be?

>>50289902
Well they can give you a pretty good concussion and make dents in the plate or helmets, same as a mace, or in the best case pierce it with the pike

These warhammers, which end do you strike with?
I bet the answer is BOTH ANON, DEPENDING ON HOW YOU NEED TO MURDER THEM

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>>50291060
That would probably tend to be the case, yes. Though with >>50281457 we have a demi-basket making sure you hold it with the pick side forward.

>>50283883
That looks more like a pole-arm head than a schmitar.

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>>50289226

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>>50289226
*

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>>50289226
Bestinet.

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Burgonets and demi-armors I

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>>50295305
Burgonets and demi-armors II

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>>50295323
III

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>>50295333
IV

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>>50295390

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>>50295433
VI

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>>50295463
VII

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>>50289226

>>50295323
Is demi-armour another way of saying 3-quarters coverage, sans below the knee?

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>>50293623
Oh hey, a Navaja! Traditional knife of my people, suitable for stabbing, shanking and shiving! Thought to be originated from the medieval razor, with the tip ground into a clipped point, since Gypsies were forbidden from carrying weapons in some townships.

Pic is an unmodified razor

>>50295333
Damn, that's gorgeous. Is it a period piece, or a modern one?

>>50281581
I love the elephant hunter's detail on this one.

>>50283156
>AUG knight

>>50297675
I was 100% sure navaja just meant knife (this kind of stabby knife) in spanish.

>>50297675
>since Gypsies were forbidden from carrying weapons in some townships
>Traditional knife of my people
I knew there was a reason I hated you

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Anyone got any grille-faced bascinets? I saw a really stylish engraving of one in a textbook a few years back, but can't find it now.

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>>50297675
>since Gypsies were forbidden from carrying weapons in some townships.
There was good reason for that.

>>50289029
underrated

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So, let me ask. I have this huge guy (8 feet tall) that fights all sort of monsters: ranging from humanoids enemies to 25 feet tall behemoths with hard exoskeleton.

What's a good weapon for him to carry? I was thinking on him carrying a heavy zweihander that can double as a hammer with mordhau, a crossbow, a shortsword as a sidearm with smaller enemies and a dagger. Is that set up versatile enough?

>>50299255
What about a spetum, ranseur, something with a little more range than his quillons?

>>50299388
I considered them as well, but for some reason I got the feeling that his ranseur broke after some battles and he was unable to replace it. He does prefer carrying a spear whenever he can, but his fighting style is pretty rough on his weapons: He's used to scrap weapons during a fight because he can pick up the weapon of the dead guy beside him that died during the skirmish.

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Live, damn you!

>>50295433
This is terrifying. I like it.

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>>50291060

A one-handed war hammer was something you'd use on horseback, since knights and men at arms fighting on foot would be using the two-handed version, the pollaxe.

On horseback, you use the hammer side for heavy downward blows against peoples helmets and stuff like that, since the pick side of the one-handed versions would not be guaranteed to pierce a helmet, which was the thickest piece of armour worn. In addition, using the spike when you're on horseback is a great way of getting your hammer stuck and losing it. Against less armoured opponents the spike works wonders and is "more lethal" than the hammer side. You can run off or keep fighting with a broken rib or arm, not so much with a finger deep hole gushing blood.

The real strength of the rear spike is in hooking and controlling your opponent, which is why many historical examples have a much stronger curve on the spike than the angle of the blow would require. This is particularly pronounced in a lot of eastern European and middle eastern examples where it sometimes looks like a combination between hammer and shepherds crook. Good for pulling other riders off horses.

The examples of one-handed war hammers that have a top spike are generally western in origin, which makes sense since western europe saw the most use of plate armour and techniques like half-swording and equipment like rondel daggers. The top spike is something you use in really, really close quarters with both hands on the weapon, one close to the head, to jab it in peoples visors and stuff like that.

>>50289902
The helmet and breastplate were the thickest pieces of armour worn, getting a clean penetration with a one-handed weapon is very unlikely. Denting it significantly or immobilizing armour through buckling joints and visors etc was possible though.

The two-handed versions on the other hand (pollaxe) did put a lot of holes in armour, as we know from accounts of tournament fights and challenges between knights.

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>>50302873
example of one handed warhammer against breastplate

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>>50303030

>>50303030
>>50303039
Still nasty. And it looks like the zone around the hole is deformed too right ?

>>50303091
yep but no real damage, it still didn't touched the padding underneath it.
On the second pic you can see other dents too as not all the hits went through

>>50303234
True, but now I'm imagining this kind of shot landing in the head or the neck and the kind of trauma it must inflict

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>>50295323

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>>50303322
> now I'm imagining this kind of shot landing in the head or neck

The thing is that helmets were both the thickest pieces of armour and the most well padded. In addition to the padding function of an arming cap or equivalent worn under the helmet, the helmet straps and liner made your head "freefloat" inside the helmet, no part of your head was in direct contact with the metal. A blow like that would certainly be noticeable, but there wouldn't even be bruising even if you hit it hard enough to dent the helmet.

What you can certainly do though is ring a guys bell hard enough that he gets a concussion/gets completely stunned or disoriented and goes down.

When it comes to neck blows it depends entirely on what type of armour the other guy is wearing, full neck protection was fairly common once full suits of plate was in use and helmets evolved to have more neck protection, rigid or articulated (great bascinets, armets etc.) In the transitional period you find more mail protection for joints, but eventually the only real weak spots were the major moving joints like armpits, backs of knees and elbows etc.

>>50303322
You can't throw that shot and hit the neck. It'd just hit the chin and glance off.

>>50304388
Even with a sallet ? I mean it's padded of course and I could be wrong but it doesn't seem big enough to allow free floating. Big helmets like the armet or the great bassinet of course but I'm sure about sallets or older bassinets.

>>50304486
As>>50304388 said it has to depend on the armor the guys is wearing, I'm sure you have to feel it if you only have mail

>>50304697
No man, I mean that a downward strike like in that pic with the warhammer isn't going to hit the throat, the head is in the way and will block it from connecting. You have to cast a side snap to hit the neck or a thrust, which has a completely different impact.

>>50304768
I don't think the hit on anon's pic is downward since the plate is vertical and on a mannequin, I guess to simulate a normal situation. I mean of course a complete downward hit is going to get blocked by the helmet, but I don't know why you even have this idea

>>50304811
...Anon the beastplate is globose/sloped. It actually has a surface that sticks up you can strike downwards on. That blow was delivered with a downward strike, which if you've actually sparred you'd know is nigh impossible to do to the neck.

>>50304839
>Anon the beastplate is globose/sloped
Yeah that was happens when an object enters in collision with a metal plate but you're tha ballistics expert here

>That blow was delivered with a downward strike, which if you've actually sparred you'd know is nigh impossible to do to the neck
No fucking shit, when did I say a downward hit to the neck was possible. What I'm saying is that a blow to the neck with that hammer must hurt pretty fucking badly

>>50304697
Even with something like a sallet or fairly snug bascinet the lining of the helmet is constructed in such a way that the lacing that adjusts tightness is at the crown of your skull, meaning that there's a good bit of clearance between your actual head and the metal of the helmet at the top, and significant padding at the sides. It's basically impossible to hit the helmet in such a way that the helmet doesn't have a bit of give or movement under it before any force is imparted to the wearer.

It's actually pretty important in sallets, since the "lobster tail" on some versions partially relies on the helmet having a bit of give in the way it's secured to your head, the "tail" on some versions of sallets would be a pretty big liability if the helmet was attached super-rigidly. As it is, it's a very effective protection that "spoils" strikes at the back of your head or neck.

Bottom line, the helmet liner/arming cap or combo thereof adds up to a good bit of clearance between your skull and the metal of the helmet, and protects you from a significant amount of the force in any blow, even if it's strong and straight-on enough to dent the helmet.

>>50304811
>>50304768
>>50304486
>>50304811
>>50304839
>>50304863
Start over with just a little less autism so the thread can stay productive and informative.

The thing to remember is that neck protection like gorgets or helmets that prtect the neck were in common use past a certain stage of armour development.

Short of pole-arms or lance-strikes it was very difficult to get the kind of force behind a hit that you'd need to outright kill someone through plate armour, as long as he was active and moving. No personal protection will stop a war-lance with the momentum of a horse behind it if you get a straight-on hit that doesn't slide off, and it won't stand up to prolonged abuse from impact polearms like pollaxe variants.

Not unless you start getting Elves or Dwarves involved anyway.

>>50304975
Thank you

>>50304975
Fuck I forgot. It's a rather strange question but you seem to know your shit so I will ask : is it possible to strangle someone wearing a helmet but only a padded mail for the throat and neck like this >>50291092 and >>50289226

>>50289840
Why would an executioner's sword need a loop like that?

>>50305130
Because the knave must be reminded of his place by the sheer coolness of it

>>50305130
To look like a sword.
An executioner's tool needn't have a loop, nor a crossguard. In fact, a maul or bardiche would be a much better overall design.
The important factor is that kings died 'by the sword' and thus the tool must be swordlike. Swords of the time had guards like the one pictured. The rest is trivial.

>>50305070
Not for a human, there's no way to put enough pressure on the windpipe or major arteries through all of that with your hands unless the guy is not resisting you at all, and if that's the case you pull the helmet off and stab him in the neck like a normal person.

The mail aventail is attached to the edge of the helmet, which has a much wider circumference than the head and neck, t's important to remember that the mail is not rigid, but it's not elastic either. You'd basically have to push the lower part of the aventail up until you had some of it resting right against his throat before you started pressing, and even then it would cancel out a lot of the spot pressure you could make with your thumbs, and that's if he's NOT wearing some kind of padding around his neck.

If the guy was on the ground and you basically stood on his neck you could accomplish the same thing, but short of that I don't see it happening.

That's without factoring in stuff like getting your face absolutely pasted if he grabs your head or shoulders and smashes you against his visor if you're not armoured, or stabbing you in the armpit if you are, since you so helpfully raised your arms for him.

>>50305150
>To look like a sword.
And yet the point is smoothed down.

>>50305280
And if you use your arms from behind with an arm key ?

>>50305338
arm lock*

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>>50305338
Or is it neck lock ?

>>50305338
He would be in a lock, but you are basically making the choking part of it even less effective by using a larger surface area to press on his neck with.

And again, you are running smack into the problem of logic. if you have him in an armlock why aren't you just pulling his helmet off and killing him?

No matter how you change the parameters, you will still run into the problem of why you're not killing him in a more effective way if you have the opportunity to choke him, out, since that will invariably mean you have the chance to do something smarter than that.

If he's not resisting, you can kill him however you want, if he is resisting you're just giving him a free shot at coming up with a way of freeing himself or harming you.

If you have someone in a bascinet in a headlock, here are some better ways to kill him:

you grab the visor or the edge of the helmet around the face if there is no visor, and you twist as hard as you can. If the helmet is loosely attached, you pull it clean off, or you can spin it around until he can't see shit, then you just disentangle yourself and kill him while he's trying to turn his helmet or get it off.

If the helmet is too rigidly attached, you basically have a handle to twist his head until you injure or kill him.
Or you just stab him.

Is this some kind of weirdass D&D wrestling build or something? Because It seems very forced and silly.

>>50305500
Many thanks.

>Is this some kind of weirdass D&D wrestling build or something? Because It seems very forced and silly.

Well no it's just some writefaggotry I'm trying to do and I realized it was forced and silly, hence my question about the legitimacy. I'm just gonna use what you said about the twisting, tho, I hadn't thought about that

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>>50299162
I've only seen burgonets with grill visors.
Perhats it was a tournament helmet?

Where should I buy swords and such in the UK?

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>>50304811
>I don't think the hit on anon's pic is downward since the plate is vertical and on a mannequin,
it was on our guy

>>50305753
Also, is windlass.com genuine?

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>>50305575
That might be the case. It was also a Victorian engraving, so who knows how accurate it was.

>>50305540
And don't forget about classics like eye-gouging, nostril ripping, straight up punches to the face etc, depending on if the helmet is off or not.

The fact that armour turns your body into a weapon is also sorely overlooked by a lot of writers.

I've read a gorillion accounts of completely implausible sword techniques, but never about anyone getting headbutted with a pig-face visor and spraying teeth and losing an eye, or getting gauntlet-punched to death.

>>50305806
Windlass, kultofathena, hanwei, you have the same options as someone in the States. Sword buyers guide is a pretty good website if you want to read reviews of specific models or companies.

>>50305948
Eye gouging, punches and armored headbutts were already on my list but nostril ripping is quite fancy I must say.

Of course I'm open to any other suggestions which would add gruesome yet realistic details

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>>50305948
>but never about anyone getting headbutted with a pig-face visor
I know it's not the same, but the close enough.

>>50306132
Nice

>>50305972
Thanks, I was just wondering if it was a faked site due to the amount of products that didn't have images.

>>50305948
Oh, I've thought some more about the twisting. If the helmet is really well attached to your head, can you break your opponents head by twisting his helmet sideways ?

>>50306198
>opponent's head
I'm really good for nothing tonight. I meant his neck of course

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>>50305500
>If the helmet is too rigidly attached, you basically have a handle to twist his head until you injure or kill him.
>>50306198
Well fuck

>>50306215
Keep in mind that this would have been incredibly rare though. Bascinets and the like stayed on by their own weight and the liner or arming cap fitting snugly, not with neckstraps or similar, while a lot of later helmet arrangements locked your head in place so you couldn't actually turn it.

If the person is wearing a bascinet with aventail, the most likely result of pulling or twisting the helmet would be it coming loose or spinning around freely, not actually twisting the wearers head around.

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>>50306184
Like this, and instead of having a price you contact them. Just want to make sure they are genuine, as I could not find any information on whether it was.

>>50306592
A lot of other sites sell their products though, so if you want more pictures just search for the name of the product.

>>50306489
My character has a very good reason to keep his bascinet in place at all time so I'll just take a bit of liberties around that and say he has straps around the chin neck

>>50306755
It was less to do with seeing it, and more to do with if the site was genuine. I thought that if it was, they would have images of their own wares. Also, having to contact them to find out what the price is seems shady.

>>50307176
Actually, don't worry. I've figured out what i was doing wrong and it was just me being stupid.

>>50304863
>No fucking shit, when did I say a downward hit to the neck was possible. What I'm saying is that a blow to the neck with that hammer must hurt pretty fucking badly
A blow to the neck with a side snap delivers far less force like the downward blow in that pic however. The damage will be far less, and thus not really comparable at all.

>>50304975
>Short of pole-arms or lance-strikes it was very difficult to get the kind of force behind a hit that you'd need to outright kill someone through plate armour,
Non-pointed lance strikes aren't actually enough to penetrate a coif covering the neck. Knights in 13th century jousts used blunted lances, and would strike each other in the neck, even aim for it, and not suffer any problems.

>>50308568
>not suffer any problems
That's a bit of an exageration anon. How many traumas and injuries happened during jousts ? Of course they had protection and it was relatively rare but come on

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>>50298915
Very close. Its the Gitan (Spanish mountain Rom) word, and a corruption of the Latin word for Razor, novacula. In Zingari (South Italian Rom), we call it a Novaha. The Gitan (French Rom) call it a Novasi. etc etc.

>>50298985
Because of your latent homosexual attraction to me?

>>50299162
Mostly late period tournament helms, but sure.

>>50299164
Not really. Most non-landowners were forbidden. That is why things like Messers and Cinquedas were invented, to circumvent the rule.

>>50305321
Its a purpose built tool, but its about semantics. There are basket hilted capital swords.

>>50305806
They are hit or miss, and more often a miss.

>>50305972
>>50306184
>>50306755
Hanwei is a better brand than Windlass, but Kult of Athena is only a retailer.

>>50297675
>Society at large decides your people are too dangerous and untrustworthy to own knives
>Let's you keep your shaving razors so you can still be clean and civilized
>Modify razors into knives because you'll be damned if you can't shank some gadjo
>Do this so often it becomes tradition

Goddamnit, gypsies.

>>50305806
They're really fucking cheap.

You get what you pay for...

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>>50308940
>Not really. Most non-landowners were forbidden. That is why things like Messers and Cinquedas were invented, to circumvent the rule.
I meant trying to prevent gypsies specifically from arming. No offense to you, IMO there's Roma and -Gypsies-, and those guys can get real nasty even in the recent era about not budging and taking whatever they want once they've parked on your land. In medieval times when authority isn't something that can be relied on and takes time to get support, it's better to be safe than sorry.

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>>50308984
>>Modify razors into knives because you'll be damned if you can't defend yourself from some trumped up gadjo with a giant "knife".

Fixed that for you.

>>50309117
>No offense to you, IMO there's Roma and -Gypsies-

No offense taken. I've been on Kompania with family in Europe and met both the Romani and the Gypsies of my family. Those that call themselves Rom are just citizens with a different cultural and racial background to the country they reside in. People who describe themselves as Gypsies are almost always scum.

Gypsies are to Romani as niggers are to black people.

That said, lets face it, the social stigma as outsiders did also kind of make them who they are. All they know is being criminals.

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>>50309635
enough of that though, back on subject.

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>>50309716

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>>50309738
>>50309738

>>50309635
Most roma seem to dabble in organized crime, hence why the police in Sweden kept secret lists of roma people.

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>>50309848
People said the same about Italians here in the US years ago.

Wish I could get some of that sweet sweet mafia money

>>50308940
>Not really. Most non-landowners were forbidden. That is why things like Messers and Cinquedas were invented, to circumvent the rule.

First of all, that rule depends hugely on where and when you are talking about, it was far from universal.

Second, no, messers weren't invented so people could say "it's not a sword it's a knife lol, I'm not breaking any no-swords allowed laws!" People weren't stupid, a lot of cities had their own regulations about carrying arms, and one convention was to have a knife on a chain by the gate, meaning anyone entering had to relinquish any blade longer than the example knife. This is not something you got around by pretending a sword is a knife, it's a simple case of any weapon bigger than x being banned on the premises except for people with a legit reason or special dispensation.

The "messers are knives" thing is not about what's legal to own, it's about manufacture. Manufacture and trade was often heavily regulated and monopolized in the medieval world, and guild masters jealously guarded any trade or craft that was seen as theirs exclusively, because the whole guild system relied on it.

This meant that the armourers were allowed to make armour, the swordsmiths were allowed to make swords, the hilt makers made hilts, and so on and so forth. Nobody wanted anyone to make everything, because a lot of people made their living making one category of thing exclusively.

The messer was not a way for people to cheat the rules on carrying swords, the messers were a way for the knife makers to cheat the rules about swords being the exclusive domain of the swordsmiths. It had nothing to do with weapon ownership, it was about cheating a manufacture monopoly.

I don't know where you got that the Cinquedea was counted a knife or anything of the sort, it's just a case of Italians having a Romaboo period and wealthy people favouring a funny looking sword because it had more room for fancy engraving and giltwork.

>>50309921
>>50309848

When the Swedish government made an inquiry into the state of the Roma population in Sweden back in the 90s, partially in an effort to combat the stigma around them, the findings were so bad that they just scrapped the whole thing.

Among the choicer bits of info was that no Roma had managed to finish basic, compulsory swedish school (grades 1-9) in the last 15 or so years, and that they were massively overrepresented in many kinds of crime.

Their public perception in Sweden is still shit because of the frequent fuckups, like stabbings at weddings, benefits scams, child trafficking and the Roma cultural ambassador getting caught by security with a bunch of stolen stuff under her skirt.

Even in a country that can't stop making excuses for immigrants, people pretty much unanimously loathe the Roma.

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>>50310861
I'd love to read more documentation about this. To be very frank, North American Rom are just so far removed from our Euro cousins, because we simply don't have the long ingrained seedy shit and cultural bias.

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>>50311076
Also America treats Roma better. Granted we also have laws that don't tolerate a gypsy lifestyle, castle law and all that fun stuff, but we're much better at accepting and assimilating people into America than the European countries.

God I love patriotism.

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>>50311463
All quite true, but ironically, settling down and being able to legally own property was a dream that my great grandfather would never achieved in Italy.

They only ones now adays who romanticize the life on kompania are the hipster teenagers. I know that I don't miss the hardships of the touring circus life.

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>>50311666
>All quite true, but ironically, settling down and being able to legally own property was a dream that my great grandfather would never achieved in Italy.
Well to be fair Satan, most Italians have a dream of owning property that will never come true. Because shit's so condensed that you live there for generations.

Shame Italy's gone to the dogs though, I'd love to move there someday if there was actually jobs to be had. t'would be nice to embrace the motherland's culture.

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I need pics of great bascinets and burgonets with visors.

>>50308940
>Not really. Most non-landowners were forbidden. That is why things like Messers and Cinquedas were invented, to circumvent the rule.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT!
Gropalope we went through that stuff countless of times.
I dare you ONCE AGAIN to show sources for that otherwise I have to call bullshit on it again and again.

And I mean the messer thing, the "no good reason to hate gypsies" is also bullshit but I can't even describe the level of how wrong you are on that one.

>>50316346
My town charter has that rule from the 1200's as do many others in Germany. We learn that in kindergarten.

I have not met a bad Gypsie outside of Berlin, and he was a strange one. Muslims are the real problem.

>>50316511

Has that charter says that swords aren't okay but similar sized messers are, for the sole purpose of peasants can walk around with weapons? Because I will need source then and it will change the whole academic view on messers and medieval weapon laws.

Especially the part where messers as weapons pop up in 1200 and so common that people make a law about them all around germany.

>>50316346
The control of swords over knives in cities was the norm in townships across the Netherlands, with exceptions based on the style of manufacture (a sword smith vs. a cutler) comparing a tool of war and a tool of defense.

Source is Thuis in de late middeleeuwen (het nederlands burgerinterieur 1400-1535) ISBN 90 70072 66 1

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/556...otostream/ page 1
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/556...otostream/ page 2
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/556...otostream/ page 3, a table of arms and armor in civilian inventories.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/556...otostream/ page 4
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/556...otostream/ notes
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/556...otostream/ An example of one a measuring knife (schreef) from Deventer. Total length 81 cm, knife 40 cm, 15th or 16th century, Museum de Waag, inv # 2732.3

>>50316624
4chan messed up the links

>>50316637
Apologies.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/5564445821/sizes/l/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/5564441675/sizes/l/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/5565019806/sizes/l/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/5565020784/sizes/l/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/5565021938/sizes/l/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/12636421@N05/5564442397/sizes/l/in/photostream/

There is also a modification of ordinance by Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy to his officials in Hainault, dating to 1432, that makes specific mention forbiding anyone to carry "big knives with crosses and nails", which sound like the equivalent of German messers.

https://archive.org/details/cartulairedescom05deviuoft

>>50316717
>There is also a modification of ordinance by Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy to his officials in Hainault, dating to 1432, that makes specific mention forbiding anyone to carry "big knives with crosses and nails", which sound like the equivalent of German messers.
yep that's more like it.

Also while I can't speak the language that you first links book is written on I will need confirmation from you.

The bullshit messer theroy/urban legend, that was debunked countless times, is that messers were specifically made at first (and by messers we mean here the weapons, not the usual (small) knives which were used as tools or for eating) so that they can go around the weapon laws so peasants can carry them because according the theory only swords were regulated, so it was totally okay to carry a messer which was exactly the same size of an otherwise banned sword but the messer is a knife so it's allowed.

So the question is, does that book confirms this?

>>50316759
It is French, and does indeed confirm that weapon possession ordinance within towns had to be modified to specifically incorporate construction methods of "big knives of sword lengths" and "big knives with crosses and nails" into preexisting law.

I would say this is safe inference that the messer construction was being used as a cheat around the preexisting sword ordinances in such a way that it required specific wording to counter the popularity.

>>50316816
what were the existing laws that needed to be modified?
Because in most german towns it was regulated according to the length of the weapon or blade (hance constructing method wasn't even a question in said cities)

>>50316858
The law forbid any who were not landowners or of explicit allowance, to carry a "sword of war" within chartered townships. I assume it is one of those things that in the period was understood as a matter of course.

>>50316910
alright I'm now interested. Is there an english translation of that book?

>>50316933
I do not know. You can try google translate, or perhaps ask Gropey or Frenadian to translate it? I would, but university takes all my spare time.

>>50316955
I will look into it, thankfully have a few friends who also speak french and can translate it to even hungarian

>>50316980
french anon here, do you want that i take a look ?

>>50316980
So you were proven wrong about the messer laws... Does that mean you have to try and learn to love the gypsies too?

>>50317038
I will wait until I get a translation that I can read, but yeah I'm willing to accept that I was wrong.

Then again there is no book that can redeem the gypsies

>>50317018
please do so, I think more than one people in this thread would be interested

>>50317070
>>50317038
well, will do.
So, can the anon who provided the ink give me the pages where I should look for ? because I don't think I will read the entire thing to find the proper quote.

>>50317018
>>50317070
Its not most exciting reading.

>>50317098
try these for a start >>50316717

>>50317187
french anon here.
I can't speak dutch, so I can't translate the flickr thingies.
1432 letter then ? will look after that.

>>50317238
you can do that too although if it doesn't mention about going around the law with messers then simply banning them aren't as interesting as it happened here and there

>>50317322
french anon here.
Ordinance from Duc of Burgundy, 13th march 1432, forbidding people to wear "great knifes with nails and wood", indeed.
no mention that it was used against the ordnances about wearing weapons, as it was mentionned at the beginning of the ordnance, as he liss about people wearing armors and weapons, using it to disturb the peace, force people to pay them during wedding for unasked services, etc.

>>50317390
It's in the second book.

>>50317809
which second book, do tell ?
I 've quoted the 1432 ordnance you were talking about, it mentions that messers were frobidden, as a weapon, nothing more.

Hey, HEY!
GET BACK TO ARGUING, IT WAS ENTERTAINING, YOU FUCKS.
Also, more gypsy shit.

>>50283477
You would be right. Longer cutting edge makes it easier to cut deep and easier to extract.

Like a scimitar.

>>50306132
fucking slav berserkers