Why is Abbadon perceived as a joke? How do make him scary?

>Give him arms.

>Make him competent.

>Replace him.

Choose two. No more, and no less, two is the number you must choose.

>>50263237
>Why is Abbadon perceived as a joke?

Memes, like >>50263254 clearly shows

>>50263237
From the perspective of someone who has very little idea about 40k and this guy's feats, he feels like a huge downgrade in terms of threat level compared to Horus, other Primarchs that fell to chaos etc.
No bully pls.

>>50263412
In lore is he actually more powerful than the traitor primarchs as he is not a daemon and bound to any one god.

>>50263237
It's just cancerous memes. The fact that this dankest of memes survived this lone is proof that the Imperial side of the fanbase are cancer incarnate

>>50263237
Idiotic memes based around a poorly balanced miniature and an implication that was never there.

>>50263237
Memes mainly. That and chaos fags being inherently cancerous that any attempt to take them down, no matter how asinine, is jumped upon.

>>50263237
Just mrmes.
All the other 40k Memes are dead by now, this one only survives because it makes chaosfags buttblasted, or at least imperiumfags like to think that it does.

>>50263531
Some got triggered by an earlier post, looks like. The push back at the meme happened recently. For the longest time Imperial cancer kept going at it because they can.

>>50263237
First the model often did loose its arms, at least the metal version, which led to armless.
It does not help the model is from 2nd and is a bit smaller then current plastic termis.

Furthermore while his previous 12 Black Crusades were somewhat successfull, some of the less reading-able people assumed he tried to storm to terra 12 times, falsely declaring all them complete failures.

Third compared to regular GW-SM fanwank he is a more realistic hero with ups and downs rather then I-succeed-at-everything-coz-I-am-SUPERMARINE loyalist jokes (Calgar, Grimnar etc) making him seem less then the GREATEST HEROS EVAH.

>>50263237
He has lead the forces of a faction of monsters from another dimension with UNLIMITED POWAH form millenia, but hasn't been able to destroy/conquer a crumbling Empire that is so rife with incompetence and non-Warp corruption, that it is more of threat to itself than anyone else. Horus was able to make the Break the Big E's legs with his little tantrum, before he was punted out existence.

How to fix:

1. Tone down the UNLIMITED POWAH part of Chaos:When you have that much power, than any failures will always be seen as incompetence on your part.

2. Let him be be tactically compentent and able to effictively lead his forces for at least a single battle without them trying to kill each other over stupid shit: When an army doesn't listen to their leader, it reflects badly on him and makes him look like a shitty leader.

3. Let him conquer things and just be like "kill and burn everything" and stay away from doing anything really edgy: Being overly Edgy is the number one way to not be taken seriously by anyone on this board. ie. the DEldar

Maybe if he takes the powers he's been given by the Chaos Gods, and managed to run off with them?

>>50263709
That could work. A sort of "Fuck you, I ain't nobody's bitch! I got my own hopes and Dreams! I'm a rebel with out a cause!" Outlook.

File: ADB explains Abaddon.png (90KB, 1069x751px) Image search: [Google]

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>>50263694
>He has lead the forces of a faction of monsters from another dimension with UNLIMITED POWAH form millenia

This real bad fluff knowledge. Abaddon doesn't have unlimited power, and the Chaos Gods attention is mostly on the Great Game of Chaos. Rarely do they pay attention to the galaxy. Abaddon started his quest with 3 marines, 1 Dark Eldar, and 1 daemon puppy. He had to build it all from this and deal with the madness of the daemon and gods. Picture related better explains it.

> Let him be be tactically compentent and able to effictively lead his forces

He did it 12 times. Each Crusade as successful and achieved its objective more or less.

Your problem is you are retarded. I am sorry. A basic understanding of Chaos lore is what you are lacking.

>>50263745
I think the bigger issue is people taking Imperium perspective as objective perspective. When a Black Crusade is successful in wiping out an entire sector and pulling it into the warp, the Imperium just purges any record of that sector and denies that it ever existed. In that way, Abaddon never appears to win from the Imperium's perspective.

>>50263810
The High Lords of Terra are said to live in fear from the Abaddon and day when he will replay the events of the HH, And he is the only enemy of Imperium who got a tarot card made of him.

Anyone can see that the higher ups of the Imperium know full well his threat.

>>50263237
>Why is Abbadon perceived as a joke?
Decades of lore that implied that the Black Crusades were a long string of failures, and a shitty portrayal in the Heresy books.
Now even though they changed it to them all having different, successful goals, the attitude of him being a failure is so ingrained in the memes that he'll never be seen differently.

>>50263745
>Picture related better explains it.
>quoting ADB

>>50263810
the goals of the crusades were big to deny. And at least some have been undeniably achieved.
-Destruction of that fleet base
-Capturing/destroying the blackstone fortresses
-Getting the daemon sword
for examples

>>50263865
>Decades of lore that implied that the Black Crusades were a long string of failures,

Actually, the oldest Abaddon lore I said was a WD article from 3th ED by I think Andy Chambers.

It's titled "ABADDON THE VICTORIOUS". He speaks about the Black Crusades and how they are preprocessors for the big plunge towards Terra. I think the failure here is from the fans, not the writers.

>>50263237
>How do make him scary?
Advance the plot

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>>50263901
Worked with Archaon. Now he is killing gods and destroying universe.

>>50263237
>How do make him scary?
you can't "make" him scary

they tried to do that with archaon, and failed real fuckin' hard

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>>50263915
>Implying

Whenever Archaon pops up in AoS, people are on their toes waiting to see his next ANIIIIIME moment.

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>Erf, the 12 black crusades were actually successful
>Abbadon won by losing 12 times in a row
We'll talk about that once he reaches Terra, because right now the crusades are nothing more than the jokes people say about them.
Abbadon is not a threat because the 40k setting is almost frozen in time, you can't create an impending sense of doom if nothing progresses.

>>50263964
>>Abbadon won by losing 12 times in a row

What's your measure for losing? Each Crusade had an objective that he achieved which ultimately led him and his legion to gain more power, resources, and favour from the gods. All of them were meant as prep strikes before the 13th Black Crusade which is the only Crusade meant to topple Cadia and go straight to Terra.

He is the only one gaining from the crusades while the Imperium is losing resources and growing weaker.

Again, basic fluff missed for no reason.

In old Lore he was a total failure, warmaster of chaos that can't do shit. Arms of his miniature(from Forge World) very often fall of the min.
But everything has changed since 6ed. There you have information that all 12 black crusades were preparation for the last, 13 black crusade. Also all his failed 12 black crusades are now succesfull, he achivved his goals.
So this are old memes, no longer accurate(but still funny).

>>50264035
>In old Lore he was a total failure,

Not true. Show me where in the old fluff they are said to be failures?

>>50264035
Or new fluff is plain bullshittery to prop up a total failure.

>>50263237
>How do make him scary?
Destroy Cadia.

>>50264073
Or in reality old and new fluff is pretty much the same but anons cannot into reading.

>>50264075
Black Crusade series has begun with "Traitor's Hate". It might end with Cadia blowing up.

I mean they screwed over the Eldar in Death Masque. Screwing the Imperials isn't fat fetched.

>>50264052
>you can't make any conclusions unless explicitly told so
Anon, please.

>>50264097
>It might end with Cadia blowing up.
But it won't.

>>50264110
The old fluff, didn't say they were failures. Quite the opposite.

So you are clearly mistaken. Your behaviour is also of someone in the wrong.

>>50264128
And you know this how?

>>50263729
Him conquering Cadia, before suddenly turning around the plugging the Eye of Terror would be cool. Seeing as if Chaos consumes the galaxy, he won't have one to rule.

>ITT: triggered chaosfags

Failbaddon is incompetent and everyone knows it

>>50264173
>The old fluff, didn't say they were failures.
The old fluff made the mistake of describing him as a badass, while having all of his plans fail completely like some kind of goddamn cartoon villain. Also his disdain for Horus after his death just made him seem like a whiny douchbag, and not a ruthless leader.
This is where the memes started.

>>50264270
>The old fluff made the mistake of describing him as a badass, while having all of his plans fail completely like some kind of goddamn cartoon villain. Also his disdain for Horus after his death just made him seem like a whiny douchbag, and not a ruthless leader.

Again I say, where exactly? From what I read in the "old fluff", it says the opposite. It says Abaddon emerges stronger after each crusade. After each Crusade, the Chaos Gods offer him daemonhood for his service.

Let's compare actual historical crusades to black crusades:
>rival kings and high noblemen constantly jockeying against each other and failing to co-ordinate their forces
>the enemy was a decayed and disunited empire which gradually reinvigorated itself through the crusading era
>10 big official numbered crusades and numerous smaller un-numbered operations
>exactly one was a clear victory and actually took Jerusalem
>others vary from moderate successes that strengthened the Latin position in the Levant, through draws, to counterproductive debacles
>don't forget the 4th Crusade, which blundered around the Western Med fighting fellow Christians and running out of money and supplies until it sacked the greatest Christian city in the world

Honestly, Abby's record doesn't look so bad.

>>50264327
>Honestly, Abby's record doesn't look so bad.
He doesn't really have one clear, defining victory. Just a bunch of scrambling around before high-tailing it back to his country with the navy on his heels. Not too dissimilar to the real crusades, but those do have the sacking of jerusalem to their name.

It's taken the biggest retcon in the game's history to *maybe* create one clear victory for abbadon. People see him as a joke because he's literally just twenty years of hot air.

>>50263237
It's all in the looks.
Look at Archaeon, even in AoS he still looks intimidating as fuck. He is a champion of chaos, and it shows.
Abaddon on the other hand just looks retarded, his ludicrous topknot doesn't help either.

>>50264375
Again, where is the retcon? I have a folder with nearly all 40K rulebooks and I read the Chaos lore. Show me where.

Also Abaddon sacked a lot of planets and strongholds of the Imperium during his crusades. Each crusades ends with thousands of worlds burned and looted.

>>50264414
But Archaon has a topknot now!

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>>50264469
>Proofstering this hard for your shitty husbando

Are you the top chaos Spehss marine in the entire Eye of Terror as well?

>>50264375
>He doesn't really have one clear, defining victory.
Literally every Black Crusade achieved its objectives, though.

>>50264556
I mean you made a claim and I have the books right in front me. All I want from you to point where it comes from.

If you cannot give proofs, then claims is null, comrade.

>>50263745
>>50263745
1st Crusade: Abbadon raids a bunch of Imperial Worlds with token defenses. A bunch of worlds that no one would remember existed if Abby hadn't hit them out of the countless Imperial worlds are destroyed, Abby gets a magic Sword, and the Imperiums decides "Hurr, maybe we should fortify Cadia to keep them from getting out."

2nd Crusade: Abby does some voodoo, Tzeenchian, curse magic that releases a plague on one planet, bombs bunch of ships while they're being repaired, and fucks back off into the Warp before the Imperium does anything. A couple random worlds are broken, and ships are blown up.

3rd Crusade: Abbadon sends a Demon Prince and his buds to Banzai charge the Cadian gate, distracting the Imperium so that he can Fulfill his Master plan of... Destroying some random saint's body because of an Imperial Prophecy/folklore that he would come back from the dead to fuck with Chaos later (like the story of King Arthur coming back from the grave, and probably just as likely to be true). If wasn't for "LOL DEMONS CAN'T BE PERMANENTLY KILLED! UNLIMITED POWAH!" Abbadon would be regarded as a failure for wasting troops So he could kill ONE out of COUNTLESS Imperial worlds around.

4th Crusade: Abby has his forces lead an attack against heavily fortified World. His armies get slaughter, including a bunch of his personal elite terminator body gaurds, but he wins anyway through because Magic Sword. One Stronghold world is ravaged, but but Abby's Armies are decimated from having charged into the meat grinder. although some of those casualties are negated because they were Demons so "Lol, technically immortal, UNLIMITED POWAH", there are still quite a few non-renewable forces dead for one world, especially considering that Abby doesn't have huge stores of Geneseeds lying around, and that cultists rarely live long enough or even consider having kids.

Cont. I've got 8 more of these Babies to do.

>>50264566
The 11th Crusade was kind of a fuck up.

>>50264631
>If I talk like a retard it makes my point stronger.

>>50264631
-butthurt and illitrate Imperialfag

Starting with the First Crusade, its main objective was to break the demoralisation of the Legions and ignite the Long War. The Chaos Legions were inspired by Abaddon's example and ceased their focus on their self destruction and misery. Abaddon reignited their hatred for the Imperium and this truly began the age of the CSM raids and wars against the Imperium.

So Abaddon is the very reason why the CSM are such a great threat to the Imperium they are today.

And i cannot bother going on all of them. This is all in the Black Legion supp.

>>50264469
>where is the retcon?
we're on the 14th crusade, dumbass

>>50264794
Ah..you're talking about the Eye of Terror campaign? I thought you are talking about the Black Legion supp.

>>50264631
5th Crusade: Abby decides to do an Encore of his performance, and attacks bunch of randomn imperial worlds because why not. Although, to his Credit, Abby does use his brain this time And manages to trick the WarHawks and Venerators Space Marines into being sandwiched between DoomBreed and his Bloodletters, and His Black Legion. Aside from this act of Tactical intelligence and Competence that resulted in the annihilation of 2 SM chapters, This run just ended to same as the first with a bunch of Imperial Worlds in a random sector being destroyed, and Abby just fucking off when he was done.

6th Crusade: Abby decides to mend his frosty relationship with Drecarth and his Sons of the Eye and invites them all to a day of Fun fucking up an Admech Forge World. At the end of the run, Abbadon Kills Drecarth ands tells his Sons of the Eye "You my Bitches now". This supposedly had the effect of making an example of Drecarth to prevent future betrayal, but all he did was pull out Drecarth's spine which is rather tame as far as Chaos goes. Also a random AdMech world got it's shit pushed in.

7th Crusade: Abby decides to stop fucking around with this Crusade and actually goes for weakening the Cadian gate as a whole. This Begins the "Ghost War" where Abby and friends Veitnam it up guerilla warwar, lightning raids, and just generally being a pain in the ass. Again, to Abby's Credit, this was a pretty good plan, but The gate was too well held. It's also worth mentioning that on Mackan, a Blood Angel named Jorus is stuck with his Bros cut off from supplies, and so decided to give Abby a taste of his own medicine. Jorus and his bros die, but not before He clocks Abby. Abby, in a rare display of Honor and Civility, has The Bodies of Jorus and his Bros placed on Thrones made from the terminator bodyguards they killed. Al the Other Blood Antels weren't so lucky. Eventually, Abby figures this isn't working and fucks of back to the Eye of Terror, with Cadian gate still standing.

>>50264998
You are actually reading this off the lexicanum/warhammer wiki? Fuck sake.

>>50263745
>Abaddon started his quest with 3 marines, 1 Dark Eldar, and 1 daemon puppy
And look at him now, one of the biggest DMs in galaxy.

>>50263237
Because until GW changed it he had 13 crusades that accomplished somewhere between dick and all. You can tell newfags because they'll claim that "Nuh uh! He totally accomplished something every time." That was a recent change, and you know it. He's been incompetent for so long, I don't think any amount of changes could fix that ingrained image. It's like seeing that guy who was a loser in high school pick up a muscle car and leather jacket. Yeah, thats cool and all, but you still ate chalk in 9th grade and no one is gonna forget that.

Also, his model is pretty bad, and the metal version was not made very well. I think I've seen him with his arms attached exactly once. Seeing a model without its arms to the point where you just immediately think "Abaddon the Armless" makes him seem kind of silly.

Also pretty sure Creed outsmarting him all the time with "tactical genius" didn't help either. Your claim to scariest chaos dude is kind of forfeit the moment a regular human outsmarts you, even if he is practically the reincarnation of solar macharius.

I don't think you could ever restore his scariness now. Any attempt to do so sounds like Abaddon desperately proclaiming to his followers "Nuh uh! I was only PRETENDING to be retarded!"

>>50264998
8th Crusade: Abby decides to go Full Riddler and Undertakes a bunch of random killings And Brutalities to form some sort of secret messages to Suck up to Tzeench. The amount of Confusion and "all according to Keikaku" that this creates tickles Tzeench Pink. He promises unknown benefits to Abbadons plans in the future which means...fuck all actually. But hey it was fun and he got to wreck some shit.

9th Crusade: Abby want's to raid another Sector without being annoy Imperium's navy there, so he goads the naval planet into a seventeen year long war that drains their resources by slaughtering the Capital Hive City of a neighboring world. The High Lords decide to call for some Marine chapters to help. The Lamenters and and Mortifactors get assigned to Corrillia, but the Mortifactora bug out because they don't want to catch the Lamenter's Bad luck Bug. The Lamenters decide to Martyr themselves and keep defending. The cavalry eventually arrives the UltraSmurfs and the Biker Mongolians, but not before they are slaughtered down to 200 Marines. The Whit Scars and Ultramarines break through the Chaos Warfleet, but Abby declares "mission accomplished" and heads home to the Eye of Terror.

10th Crusade: Abby wants to raid an area of space that happens to include the homeworld of the Iron Hands, Medusa, and invites Perturabl along because he doesn't get to go out very often because he doesn't have any friends. Perturabo agrees and brings along his Iron warriors. Together, they drive Iron Hands to the brink of destruction, but the Imperial reinforcements arrive before they can. So Crusade, again, ends with Abby fucking off back to the Warp, leaving behind a bunch of wrecked, but not irreparably so, worlds.

>>50265414

I agree with the model. His design is fucking stupid.

It seems each of his crusades had a purpose though; for example killing a previous enemy (drecarth). I'd imagine the crusades in which he was raiding random ass planets could be anything from getting slaves (like ramps children after HH), destroying planets that could contribute resources for more important military campaigns, suck the dick of chaos through raising totems etc.

However I do agree the whole "I got curb stomped, but I win because billions of people died and Nurglr is cumming in his pants." being more a bid to the attempted relevance of Abaddon rather than a true demonstration of his competence.

>>50263237
stupid fucking ponytail no one can take him seriously

>>50265414
>Because until GW changed it he had 13 crusades that accomplished somewhere between dick and all. You can tell newfags because they'll claim that "Nuh uh! He totally accomplished something every time." That was a recent change, and you know it. He's been incompetent for so long, I don't think any amount of changes could fix that ingrained image. It's like seeing that guy who was a loser in high school pick up a muscle car and leather jacket. Yeah, thats cool and all, but you still ate chalk in 9th grade and no one is gonna forget that.

Again, you guys are making stuff up. You seem to point at the change somehere but as a guy who is holding the books, I can say there wasn't any. The old fluff doesn't say his crusades were failure and claim they were successes, each one making him grow stronger.

I am starting to feel that I am talking to newfags that just love memes. And the proof is right here in this line :

>Also pretty sure Creed outsmarting him all the time with "tactical genius" didn't help either. Your claim to scariest chaos dude is kind of forfeit the moment a regular human outsmarts you, even if he is practically the reincarnation of solar macharius.

Creed only fought Abaddon ONCE in his life. ONCE. Creed wasn't even alive in the 12th Black Cruusade.

His backstory is that he got hastily promotion to leader of the Cadian forces after the Cadian were all killed by a rogue regiment.

In the retconned, Eye of Terror campaign, Creed lost. His one and only war with Abaddon's forces ended with him losing. What saved Cadia from falling totally to Chaos wasn't his tactical skills but the Imperial Navy chocking the supply lines of the traitor forces.

Creed DID nothing to warrant his meme status. He lost.

>>50265414
>Because until GW changed it he had 13 crusades that accomplished somewhere between dick and all.

Where was this? Because prior to the Black Legion supplement, there was literally nothing written on more than three-quarters of the crusades beyond, "They happened." The fact that nothing was written on them doesn't mean that they had no impact.

>>50264755
Which was YEARS after the first lore came out. And the first lore made the Black Crusades look like something FUCKING AWESOME. Said to come out once or twice a millennia and they caused fucking earthquakes of shit to spew out the High Lords of Terra.

And then you have actual descriptions of Abbadon's Black Crusades, and they just don't measure up...

Abbadon getting a magic sword doesn't keep the High Lords of Terra on the shitter, evacuating their bowels in fear. It's fucking pathetic. Doesn't matter how cool the sword is. He isn't cutting Terra in half with it.

And his later exploits, fail to do much better. Most actually point similar to the following (Taken from Chaos Codex 1996 printing; Page 20)

"Every city ruined, every planet burned brings the Imperium a little closer to dissolution. In a Imperium of a million worlds how much can a single world matter? Enough to have to defend each one against the infernal host, enough to bring the curse of Exterminatus upon those that bend the knee and bow down to daemon-kind."

Sounds kinda pathetic don't it?

Compare the hype to the actual damage done, and those Black Crusades, which seems like at 13 Abaddon has had the lion's share of them, and they just don't live up to it. Cadia still stands, a giant defiant middle finger right next door to chaos incarnateville.

There may have been no EXACT point where it said he failed on each one. But you compare something that happens once or twice a millennia and is supposed to cause so much fear with what the Imperium's reaction has been so far. A giant shrug and "Meh". You can easily infer that Abbadon is made of epic fucking fail.

>>50265590
>Abbadon getting a magic sword doesn't keep the High Lords of Terra on the shitter, evacuating their bowels in fear. It's fucking pathetic. Doesn't matter how cool the sword is. He isn't cutting Terra in half with it.

Taking the sword was among the prooceedings of the Black Crusade, not the focus.

>Compare the hype to the actual damage done, and those Black Crusades, which seems like at 13 Abaddon has had the lion's share of them, and they just don't live up to it. Cadia still stands, a giant defiant middle finger right next door to chaos incarnateville.

You used the lex instead of using proper sources and omitted a lot of information whether intentionally or not. Like how Makan was the first extinction event of the Blood Angels. They nearly all died that day. Such an event, if it leaked out, would bring the entire Imperium crushing down (See death of Imperial Fists, defeat of the Ultramarine second company).

Point 1, each crusade left entire sectors, thousands if worlds burning and dead. That's a lot of damage to sustain for an Imperium that can't afford it. So it's no wonder that the Imperials are ignoring the Tyranids, Necrons, and Orks to focus on the Black Crusade.

2, The Cadia Gate is the second most fortified and defended in the Imperium. Abaddon's forces are limited and/or unreliable, the Imperium is near-unlimited and reliable. So in a slugfest/attrition war (barring the 13th Black Crusade), Abaddon will always lose. So Abaddon never targetted Cadia for destruction. He circumvented to go for the other vital spots or went to areas to further his plans. Anyone can see this basic stuff.

>>50263237
The not-so-well-done-rulewise Black Legion supplement fixed him.

As I remember, 10 out of 12 Black Crusades were all about gathering stuff for the 13th one and only one was mostly a failure.

>>50263914
>>50263927
AoS please go.

I liked Archaon when he was a metal, bear-pelt wearing viking instead of a generic-looking fantasy evil overlord.

>>50265794
Nope. Utter fail. I told you where I got it. Chaos Codex 1996. Try again. But with less fail.

In that book, he only killed the Blood Angels Devastator Positions at Makan. Hardly an extinction event.

At El'Phanor, he lost 9 out of 10. Not worth.

And of course the sword on Uralan below the Tower of silence.

All in print, all written in his two page listing of the book. Page 98 and 99.

Your fail is complete.

He needs to become an agony uncle like his older brother Borak.

>>50266209
>Nope. Utter fail. I told you where I got it. Chaos Codex 1996. Try again. But with less fail.

Don't lie to me, anon.

>In that book, he only killed the Blood Angels Devastator Positions at Makan. Hardly an extinction event.

And in the newer canon he nearly wiped them out.

>At El'Phanor, he lost 9 out of 10. Not worth.

The fluff says that his forces grows with each Black Crusade. So the glory and slaughter of that day only made him stronger making it worth it.

Try again.

>>50263237

Get a new haircut. I cant take it seriously.

>>50266374
>And in the newer canon he nearly wiped them out
Sorry, but wasn't your point "Nuh uh, he was cool in the old canon too," or am I only hallucinating the squeaking of shuffling goalposts?

>>50266374
Nice goalpost moving. We were asked to provide proof that originally he was made of fail. In official print.

I did.

Anything you state now is pure retcon to try to make him NOT a punk who takes it up the ass and calls it a victory.

So deal.

(Drops the mic, walks out)

>>50266856
Follow the post chain. This sub-discussion started when started quoting the Lex/warhammer wiki and spewing retardation. Most of what you said comes from the Black Legion supplement. When I chided you for omitting details from the supplement/new lore and used the Blood Angels nearly dying out as example, you drifted into the "old lore discussion".

>>50266862
Get ahold of yourself. I just checked the old fluff. I checked the CSm codexes. Nowhere do they state that his crusudes were a failure. In fact, they state that his power rose after each one.

The 1996 Chaos lore doesn't even say that the First Crusade was about the sword only. It just says that he got it. The rest is description of the Krom-whatever conquest. Which he won.

So far as I can see this the only codex that goes into some detail about Abaddon's crusade. The rest didn't at all. So anon you were lying.

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>>50266946
Cont'ed. Posting lore to counter lies.

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>>50267016

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In terms of being taken "seriously" Chaos in 40k has always been the retarded stepchild of Chaos in Fantasy. Of course now they've fucked Fantasy as well, so.

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>>50267133
Shut up. Fantasy Chaos were a laughingstock after SoC and the headbutt incident. It took the end of the world to wash away the shame.

>>50267065
And I see nothing about him failing.

Moving on to 1999. Well, there is nothing in the codex bout the Black Crusades. This codex is starved of fluff. It's depressing.

>>50263810
The problem is, that people take xeno perspectives as objective ones. Xenos tend to underestimate the Imperium, thus all the SO INCOMPETENT LAWL memes.
Everyone failing against the Imperium must therefore be even more incompetent...

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>>50267170
To CSM 2002.

This is all the lore in it about the crusades.

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>>50267246
Add Abaddon's entry for good measure.

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>>50267276
Finally reaching 2007. The only fluff about Abaddon's Black Crusades in the codex comes from one page and it's Abaddon's entry.

Unless somehow I missed something, I have gathered the sum of all Black Crusade old lore from the dexes. So guys can you point where it says that he failed?

>>50263237
Aesthetically it's almost impossible to make him scary. His miniature takes the already goofy look of Chaos Marines and runs with it. But lore-wise? Turn Cadia into an Armageddon situation, with the forces of chaos having a permanent hold on the planet. Have cadia recall their regiment from across the imperium to defend their home and the High Lords get rightfully pissed at them. Maybe have the Inquisition land and start purging both friend and foe from the Chaos-infested planet.

>>50263237
New model with helmet, no open face with stupid top knot

>>50267170
>Shut up. Fantasy Chaos were a laughingstock after SoC and the headbutt incident. It took the end of the world to wash away the shame.
I don't mean achievements but the actual fluff being written.

>>50267987
Explain.

>>50267170
If by wash away the shame, you mean make them look like the whiny kid who cried to his overinvolved mother to chew out the coach when he tripped during Soccer practice and hurt his elbow, then sure.

One of the unspoken commandments that have to be followed if you want to be taken seriously, is that if something doesn't go your way, you can't throw a bitchfit and demand it never happened, no matter how badly it went. If GW had just followed the rules, and let Chaos get beaten like they would have let the leader of any other faction, then SoC would just be remembered as "That time that Crazy Badass Orc reached the Pinnacle of Crazy Badassary" and It would only have been a Minor Blemish on Chaos's record as relevant Faction.

But GW couldn't have their little darling Chaos have any sort of meaningful or important loss, noooo. Instead, GW had to retcon it and just say "No! Fuck You! Chaos wins and you all die!" and now they look like a whiny, little bitch of a faction that only exists so that GW can pretend that they're unique, dark, deep writers, by having the demons win.

>>50264375
>biggest retcon
>not newcrons

>>50268182
>believing it has anything to do with Chaos loving

According to Gav, management and studio team didn't like the ending and the resulting storyline.

Considering that GW likes money and doesn't have favourites in factions, they either didn't have the ability to follow up that storyline or it would have been costly.

Writing new books for the new lore, removing and adding old and new models, etc is a lot of work when they can just keep the status quo for no cost. Back then WHFB wasn't dying. There was no pressure to create something new.

So even if Chaos had won SoC, I think they would retconned it too.

>>50268182
>That time that Crazy Badass Orc reached the Pinnacle of Crazy Badassary.
You mean the Green Kroosade?

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>>50263506
>>50263508
>>50263531
>>50263539
>>50263552

>>50263506
fucking this
>>50268518
shut up, retard

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>>50269057
Gee, I wonder who this could be.

>>50263874
ADB didn't write that, he quoted it on his blog.

>>50268387
>GW does an event where the Ending is determined by the results of the people who play
>Event is very clearly portrayed as Chaos stomping through Warhammer Fantasy World with no real obstacles
>Fans instead voted for the ending where an Ork stops Archaon's Power trip like a badass, and all factions get to survive to fight on, rather than the "Chaos stomps everyone, No factions left, Chaos wins" Ending that GW had planned
>GW retcon the entirety of that event and instead have a plot advancement that bears an uncanny resemblance to CoS
>Only this time, There is no player input and Chaos wins and destroys the world,
>this ending requires the Writers to hit the reboot button to not just end there
>when confronted, GW is all "Oh no, there's totally no favoritism here. It's just that we couldn't think of things for CoS, honest"

Nigga, are you a shill or are you actually this gullible?

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>>50263237

Because he's the Skeletor of the 40k setting. There's nothing wrong with that. Every setting needs a Skeletor

>>50271511
Players had no input on the story at all, they only sent their game results to GW. The part of the ending that players criticised the most was Grimgor's stupid sucker punch that left the event without any sort of resolution.

>>50272203
About those game results, was Chaos winning or "barely and temporary bothered with a minor defeat". I just arrived to this thread and I'm aware of GW's Chaosboner.

>>50263493
>not bound to one god
Lorgar?
Perturabo?

>>50268220
Honestly, Newcrons weren't even that big of a retcon - mostly just an expansion of their faction besides a vaguely unexplained "AWAKENING EVIL" type of foe - which works for factions like the Rak'Gol who don't have much of an impact on the setting and are highly localized, but when you faction is galaxy-spanning and has its own Codex you really need actual meat on the bones of your factions personality.

Also, in old fluff it was set up so that Necrons basically could not lose, because everything is the work of the Deceiver or Nightbringer and therefore all JUSTASPLANNED (and those entities were entirely too powerful to begin with). Now, they actually have stakes and a possibility of defeat, and therefore makes their actions much more interesting and meaningful in the setting. The new C'tan are honestly the best way to go about it - the old stat-lines simply couldn't do justice to the concept of an actual god striding the battlefield. Extremely powerful but small-scale shards of the god, however, are much more easily justifiable.

>>50273146
>Also, in old fluff it was set up so that Necrons basically could not lose, because everything is the work of the Deceiver or Nightbringer and therefore all

Wrong, the oldcron lore says that the Deceiver most work fast to awaken the Necrons and his 3 brothers. He must unite his brothers again before the power of Chaos overwhelms the galaxy.

So Oldcrons, like the Newcrons, had a time limit and a possible defeat if they failed to meet the deadline. What does that make you? A liar anon. Shame on you for lying.

>The new C'tan are honestly the best way to go about it - the old stat-lines simply couldn't do justice to the concept of an actual god striding the battlefield. Extremely powerful but small-scale shards of the god, however, are much more easily justifiable.

Or go at it in the same why Dawn of War did. But hey, what would you know about imagination. Especially the one outside your bias?

Disgusting.

>Honestly, Newcrons weren't even that big of a retcon

Actually, it is. But that depends on the fact you read their codex which clearly you didn't.

There is nothing "vaguely explained" in the oldcron codex. If anything it was very revealing and explained Oldcron ad C'tan history from the start to 40K. Just throw in another lie.

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>Now, they actually have stakes and a possibility of defeat, and therefore makes their actions much more interesting and meaningful in the setting.

But the lore says that the Necrons are going to win. The races of 40K will never unite against the Necrons. For example, the Tyranids have no interest in allying with anyone.

Does this mean that Newcron actions are not interesting and not meaningful?

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>>50273371

>>50273060
GW has kinda been shying away from talking about them for a little while. The most recent statements about unaligned Primarchs is that Be'lakor is the first and only.

>>50273473
The lore says the same thing about the Tyranids. It also says Chaos is unbeatable. It also says that if the Orks ever united, they would be unstoppable.

The lore says a lot of things.

>>50275427
Funny that YOU (here see here >>50273146) didn't say that about the Oldcrons lore. Double standard? Assuming you are the same guy.

By the way, the Tyranids bit was removed.

Orks one proven bullshit since they united under the Beast and were beaten anyways by a weakened Imperium.

>>50275391
I remember recent-ish WD "ask the White Dwarf" section getting a question about Lorgar's Undivided status.

The White Dwarf dodged the question and didn't really give an answer.

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>>50271511
>Fans instead voted for the ending where an Ork stops Archaon's Power trip like a badass, and all factions get to survive to fight on, rather than the "Chaos stomps everyone, No factions left, Chaos wins" Ending that GW had planned

http://web.archive.org/web/20100506001217/http://www.bugeatergames.com/?p=123
>Me: Okay, lastly I’m going to hit home a little bit. Some people felt the ending to Storm of Chaos was … well … disappointing. It felt like all the major players showed up and … nothing happened. I mean, I’m pretty sure Archaon should be a spawn right now. What happened? Is the goal to keep the background stable so that way it simply serves as backdrop for people’s armies rather than an advancing plot? I know your time as Loremaster is done, but do you think there will ever be a massive advancement in the plot line?

>Gav: The main intent of Storm of Chaos was to bring the conflicts of the Warhammer world into a stark present. It was never meant to be a continuing narrative, but was a move to highlight the idea of a world at war. It was a beginning rather than an end – the Dark Elves are invading Ulthuan, the forces of Chaos are invading the Old World, the Tomb Kings are prosecuting their war against the living, the Orcs are on the rampage. This took those ideas out of the history and into the present. The outcome of the campaign was to decide the specifics of that new ‘present age’, and then the setting would freeze again.

>Given that much of the timeline has been wound back to exclude the events of the Storm of Chaos, I cannot see any other advancements in the future.

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>>50275944

>Regarding Archaon and spawn, it’s time for me to wheel out a well-worn rant! People need to stop attributing human notions of success and failure to the Chaos Gods. Players have focussed on a very specific rules incident that’s been around a while – a fleeing Champion gets turned into a Spawn – and created an entirely warped (ha ha!) idea around what the Chaos Gods think of mortals. A Spawn is a Champion that has been given too many gifts! It is not a punishment… Archaon in particular has survived a long time without any significant mutation at all, and for all we know the Chaos Gods don’t really care about him one way or another. The Lord of the End Times, the Champion of Light, even Sigmar reborn are all mortal constructs created to help them make sense of the ultimately senseless and Chaotic. The blur between reality, myth, religion and magic in Warhammer is so intense that there are no dividing lines between what is a priest and a wizard, a champion and a failure. Just as in the real world, any individual claiming to do something in a god’s cause is no closer to knowing their deity’s will than anybody else…

>Me: Okay, now I’ve got to ask – you said the Storm of Chaos was supposed to set the stage for the Warhammer world, yet you also just said that the new armybooks have wound back to exclude those very events. What gives?

>Gav: The only diplomatic reply I can give to that is ‘because some people within GW didn’t like Storm of Chaos and would prefer to pretend it never happened.

And the conclusion if anyone wants to see it to judge for themselves:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070623225534/http://stormofchaos.uk.games-workshop.com/

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>>50275955
Including, of course, that infamous battle:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070626033219/http://stormofchaos.uk.games-workshop.com/daythree.htm

>With his army fighting against the Orcs, Valten, seeking Archaon, once again drove into the Swords of Chaos. This time, his foe was there, mounted on the Steed of the Apocalypse and towering over his warriors. The warband of Archaon parted to allow Valten to approach the Lord of the End Times. With a roar, Valten charged, Ghal Maraz swinging toward his foe. The hammer smashed through the magical form of Archaon’s Daemonic mount. The steed exploded in flames and smoke, and Archaon was hurled to the ground.

>Valten lunged forward to press home his advantage and raised the Hammer of Sigmar above his head to strike the killing blow. A screech filled the air as Archaon struck out with the Slayer of Kings and unleashed the power of U’zuhl. The blade bit through the gromril armour of Valten and drove deep into his gut. Slowed but not stopped, Valten continued with his strike. The head of Ghal Maraz fell wide of the mark and tore a shoulder plate from Archaon’s armour.

>Pushing himself to his feet, the Lord of the End Times ripped the Slayer of Kings free, struck again, split the comet-emblazoned breastplate of Valten, and sent him onto his back. Through the blood of the grievous wound, the birthmark across Valten’s chest could be clearly seen. As if stunned by the twin-tailed comet etched into Valten’s flesh, Archaon took a step back with the Slayer of Kings held to one side. Luthor Huss launched himself at the Everchosen. His hammer sent up a shower of sparks from the impact with Archaon’s Chaos armour. A mighty blow to the side of the head caused Archaon to lose his footing and sent him down to one knee.

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>>50275966

>The next blow did not land, as the Lord of the End Times raised his shield to block it and jarred the hammer from Huss’s fingers. With a howl, the Chaos Champion batted Huss aside and shattered bones as he flung the Prophet of Sigmar through the air. The sounds of guttural war cries resounded around the Lord of the End Times, along with the shouts of his warriors. Regaining his feet, Archaon turned as another figure appeared in front of him.

>A green-skinned forehead slammed into Archaon’s helmeted face as Grimgor made his presence felt. Behind him, his ’Ardboyz fought against the heavily armoured warriors of the Swords of Chaos. The Orcs had fought their way through Valten’s followers to reach the Everchosen. With Middenheim beyond anyone’s grasp now, there was only one way left for Grimgor to prove himself to Gork. Grimgor hefted Gitsnik in both hands, swung it in a wide arc, sheared the bottom from Archaon’s shield, and sent the Everchosen sprawling backward.

>Once more, the Slayer of Kings flicked out, but Grimgor had expected the counter-attack and parried with the hilt of his magical axe. The Black Orc Warlord brought his booted foot down hard onto the arm of Archaon and knocked the Daemonic blade from his grasp. Using the flat of Gitsnik, Grimgor battered Archaon across the head twice and then placed the tip of the blade on the Everchosen’s throat. The Black Orc pulled back his head and roared into the leaden sky. “Grimgor izz da best!”

>A great cheer went up from the Orcs, a deafening chant of Grimgor’s name that echoed over the clash of fighting. Grimgor raised Gitsnik above his head, roared again, and pumped his fist in the air. Having proven his point, the warlord turned south with his barbaric horde. Their cheers of victory were heard long after they disappeared from sight.

>>50275977
Necrodermis is living metal

>>50275977
>edgy as hell description of death and chaos including comets and stars
>ends with "Grimgor izz da best!

10/10 best flavour, salty GW cucks can get fucked.

>>50276287
>10/10 best flavour, salty GW cucks can get fucked.
LOL. Imagine it happening in 40k!
>Abaddon has broken the Cadian Gate
>his forces are right outside the Imperial Palace
>Horus Heresy mk2
>suddenly Orks out of nowhere
>Ghazghkull stomps the shit out of Abaddon
>"Ghazghkull is da best!"
>they get back into their roks and leave

>>50265470
Wheres 11 and 12?

>>50263237

As has been said many times, it is 100% memery. There's a certain brand of cancer that refuses to acknowledge that they're wrong on this and will repeat again and again that the Black Crusades were failures no matter how many times you show them lore explicitly stating they achieved their goals.

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>>50264998
>>50264631

>If I use simplistic language and do my absolute best to sound retarded and play down unequivocal gains I can obfuscate the facts!

>>50264375

Anon, do you even know what a retcon is?

>>50277175
They were, your gay retcons suck, Chaos cuck.

Make him win.

That way he is a treat instead of the Saturday morning cartoon vilain he is now.

Allow him to win cadia (both in orbit and on the ground) allow him to claim territory and keep it. The IoM is falling after all, it shouldn't be able to keep or reconquer territory all the time.

>>50277363
What retcons? Point them out. I already posted 99% of the old Crusade lore in this thread so it should be easy for you.

>>50273146
How the hell are Newcrons not that big of a retcon? For better or worse they were utterly altered.

Eye of Terror campaign retcon was annoying though yes.

>>50276456
... Am I the only person who genuinely likes the headbutt ending and not because it pissed people off? Like, it just seems kind of fitting and fun that the big bad's wild card allies acted like /a bunch of wild cards/, and the most powerful mortal servant of the dark gods gets his shit slapped by someone he never even considered a threat.

>>50272296
Chaos was losing. In game results they struggled to make it past Kislev, but were written to have reached Middenheim.

In complete contrast to the 40k campaign where Chaos absolutely dominated the game results, but were written to have failed.

>>50278230
I find it kinda fitting as well, chaos rely on unreliable people and it should fuck them over sometimes

>>50263237
>Joke
He's launched 13 campaigns to conquer the imperium and isn't any farther than when he started.

>How do make him scary?
Make him actually affect the setting.

>>50279498
>He's launched 13 campaigns to conquer the imperium and isn't any farther than when he started.


Source? Because the fluff says otherwise which indicates you are a liar.

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>>50273146
Newcrons were a MASSIVE retcon, and a pretty significant tonal shift.
There were always lines about some Necrons retaining their personalities, but being a "pale shadow of their former selves".
They expanded this to wacky space egyptians who engage in diplomacy and flayed ones skinning people because they want to have bodies again. Remember, we all laughed when that piece of fluff first came up about Blood Angels teaming up with Necrons? We thought it was so stupidly out of character. Boy, were we in for a surprise.

Also, the C'tan explicitly enslaved the Necrons, whose bitterness and hubris led to their destruction. Newcrons pulled an expert double cross and got out of their Faustian bargain while enslaving the C'tan. That's a HUGE retcon.
On par with something like, I dunno, revealing that Grey Knights actually summon demons all the time and are secretly working to make a new Chaos God or something. It took a fundamental piece of the faction and flipped it around completely.

I'll give you C'tan shards, I think that's a fine change mechanically and could neatly explain how the Nightbringer can be in more than one place at the same time.

As far as a faction "needing" individual personality, what do you think of the Tyranids? Outside of Genestealer cultists, the 'nids are basically just an unstoppable tide of animals. Nobody wants to retcon in Hive Tyrants who like to chit chat before a battle or Carnifexes who long to go back to being charming, cud-chewing bovines.


Ok, maybe I do want that last one a little bit.

>>50263237
Skull topknot.

>>50281598
Actually, there are those out there who consider the Tyranids disinteresting because of the lack of anything that's not "Eat everything" character wise.

>>50281915
Well, Genestealer cults and conspiracies are really great fluffwise but I guess they have their own army now. For me tyranids do it as a enermous, unimagineably huge end of the world locust. It's not "eat everything" for me, it's more of a "end of all things living". Tyranids are like a force of nature. Plus I love Swarm by Bruce Sterling.

>>50276456
I would be okay with that. Someone needs to put those gibbering, retard, Chaos gods in their place, and it might as well be the Mean Green Boyz with a bunch of kickass toys!

Besides if we're lucky, It might even cause Carnac to have a heart attack.

>>50275944
>>50275955
How does this invalidate anything I said?

If anything the part were Gav ranted about how "Oh, Chaos Isn't retarded! They just didn't really care anyways, that's why they keep losing! They're motives are beyond understanding, because we said so and it worked for Lovecraft, so stop trying to understand them! Stop Judging Chaos by the standards you judge every other faction!" Just shows how much of a rampant Boner GW has for Chaos.

>>50263237
Less ponytail

>>50263694
I never knew the Arms meme is because of the old Model. I always thought this comes frome som BL book WD i never read.

Feelim kinda newfag now

>>50282373
>the "Chaos stomps everyone, No factions left, Chaos wins" Ending that GW had planned

>>50282929
Pretty sure that "explanation" for the meme is itself just a meme.

The way I perceive it is the way it's worded

if you said: Abbadon has launched 13 crusades to try and conquer the Imperium, each time he has tried he has been pushed back BUT each victory is pyrrhical at best and has damaged the forces and morale of the Imperium and it's just a matter of time before he manages to break through

instead we are given the "each crusade achieved tactical objectives and Abbadon/chaos is great" by doing this it feels like you are excusing Abbadon, just call the crusades defeats but built the notion that he's learning from each one and becoming more competent which is exactly what the Imperium never does and bam you have a competent, believable character that tries and is slowly achieving his objective even if he has to shallow defeats and counterattacks.

and also remove the whole daemons are immortal, 80% of the issues I have with chaos as a whole would be solved if daemons/CSM could be killed just as you kill normal humans it makes the ground more balanced and creates tension instead of making it seem like a futile fight.

>>50283290
But Anon, how will the Fanbase know Chaos is supposed to be powerful if GW doesn't suck it's dick and give it stupidly powerful in-fluff benefits 24/7?

>>50283359
just make the boundaries of chaos invasions/influence larger, we are set to believe that all this shit has been going on from the last 1000 years (crusades omitted) why not capitalize in the fact that for every chaos follower you kill for good (read GOOD) somewhere someone is listening to the whispers of the warp telling him/her tales of greatness/salvation and the cycle begins anew.

make chaos a faction based around an idea not a character(s) so that as long as those ideas find place in the minds/hearts of man they will regrow again thus transforming chaos into a concept that is capable of taking physical form and not just a bunch of psychopaths that paint themselves red and scream blood 24/7. also fuck Khorne favoritism he's the most boring of all gods

>>50263254
>Make him competent
>Replace him

Fueled by anger at his betrayal by The Chaos Gods he launches an unfair dismissal suit.

Be'lakor stands as his lawyer.
And phones it in on purpose

>>50263237
>tfw Chaos Gods know the Imperium is a corrupt society who unknowingly feeds them
>tfw they'll allow Abaddon to have Black Crusades for an extra boost but never destroy the Imperium because it ends two sources of substance, both the Imperium and Abaddon's Black Crusades

>>50283290
I had the idea to emphasize how damm costly it to hold Cadia against a Black Crusade. Each time the Imperium has to repel a Black Crusade, entire sectors are drained of their forces and left defenseless in order to throw more men at Abbadon. Despite Cadia itself being held, the Imperium does lose large amounts of ground each time as it abandons them to hold the line against the Black Crusade.

>>50281598
weren't the only changes for necrons in the lords and above while fodder crons are still oldcrons?

also didnt they revise the c'tan so that they shattered each other? it was either that or having chaos ripoffs in the materium which would gg any other faction

>>50284512
Unless the newest codex changed it, I believe it was the Newcrons who shattered the C'tan, not the C'tan who shattered each other. In fact, I think they completely got rid of the idea that the Deceiver started tricking its siblings into eating each other, too.
The foot troops are pretty close to Oldcrons. I like that they were deliberately lobotomized, because the Necron aristocracy are pieces of shit. Also, Destroyers are suffering from some sort of virus/psychopathy that makes them want to kill everything, like Oldcrons.

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>>50263237
Because he's the Chaos equivalent of Zapp Brannigan. He has overwhelming resources, infinite manpower, supplies that outdo even the Imperial Guard, and every horror and abomination from the lowest depths of the Warp. He faces an enemy who may be more powerful overall, but always has a weaker field presence. Every advantage is Abbadon's. He holds all the cards.

But he loses every single time. He throws countless millions of servants of Chaos to their deaths in campaigns of egomania. He views himself as a Chaos God Ascendant and the greatest chosen of the Chaos Gods. He thinks he's a tactical genius and the destined ruler of the entire galaxy. But he's a bumbling and egocentrical moron who is consistently outwitted and outmatched by his Imperial adversaries, his own incompetence being the greatest contributing cause to this.

tl;dr: he's what SJWTropes would call "General Failure"

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>>50283359
Give this man a fucking medal. I love 40k but holy hot damn if Chaos/CSM aren't the biggest mary sues in tabletop history

>>50285019
And many times in the canon it is said that one of the few reasons no one had replaced him yet is because he IS the best fighter of all the Chaos Marines. (In a recent book, he kicked Kharn's ass to make a point)

>>50285238
He's an amazing fighter, but a shitpoor tactician and strategist.

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>>50263745
>He has done this through feat of arms and personality

>>50263254
After all these years I still don't understand the origin of the joke that Abby has no arms. Does it have to do something with his actual boardgame model?

>>50275378
But he did provide good arguments anon, don't go to child behaviour.

>>50283290
>if you said: Abbadon has launched 13 crusades to try and conquer the Imperium, each time he has tried he has been pushed back BUT each victory is pyrrhical at best and has damaged the forces and morale of the Imperium and it's just a matter of time before he manages to break through

You disingenuous piece of shit. I would slap right in the face for this bullshittry.

The reason why idiots are calling him a failure is because they think the the Black Crusade were meant to conquer the Imperium in on go each time. So basically you want to make what he is erroneously mocked about canon.

>>50263237
In our friendly group Abaddon is not the only big bad, You have Erebus and Kor Phaeron (taking their 30k rules and adding the same mark Abaddon does) running Word Bearers, Huron heading out of the maelstrom, and other warbands loosely working together (loosely because being chaos they tend to knife one and other from time to time competing for power) with a strategy of a death of 1000 cuts. After their defeat they dont have the raw power to take on the imperium, so look to make cuts with the long term aim to bleed the beast dry and collapse itself. Abaddon's crusades are examples of these cuts where you do the damage, withdraw, and start anew.

Really the whole Crimson Path, and other plans just seem like Saturday morning cartoon villains which ultimately makes the faction look like losers when they fail at the basics. Abaddon in the fluff has been victim to this trope.

>>50289012
Really? Cause last time I checked, when conducting a war, if you can keep advancing towards victory, you do so. Am I wrong? Did the Allies say? "You know, we took the beaches. That was our objectives guys. Lets head back to England, and call it a victory. Don't want to be late for dinner."

No. If Abbadon could have kept advancing, he should have; by all strategic sense. But he can neither take ground in any real sense, nor keep it. He may raid, but raids are not advancing a cause or a "Crusade".

Basically Cadia still stands. Terra still stands. All the major strategic points between still stand. He is a useless, armless, faggot that cannot actually be a threat. End of story.

>>50289810
>Really the whole Crimson Path, and other plans just seem like Saturday morning cartoon villains
Am I the only one who likes the Crimson path idea? The idea of extending the home ground advantage of the Eye to me makes perfect sense for Abaddon and his crew.

Archaon was a character so terrible he literally destroyed a setting. GW just couldn't get enough of forcing his unlikable ass on players, and decided to just kill the setting when they wouldn't accept him.

At least Abaddon has a character.

>>50276731
I got sidetracked with irl stuff and lost motivation
Basically
11th Crusade: Warp shenanigans, Abby ends up sidetracked fighting on a Planet already being attacked by Orcs, gets even less done on this raid then his other ones, but he gets a bunch of Orcs to torture/experiment on so he's cool with it.

12th Crusade: 400th verse, same as the first. But this time he's got double Death Stars baby. This changes things as now his raid can have actual effects that the Imperium can't repair in a hundred years as instead of just raising all life on the planet, he can destroy the Planets entirely with the BlackStone Fortresses. Gets pushed back by Imperium and Eldar team-up, runs back to the Eye of Terror, but he still keeps his Blackstone Fortresses.

>>50263237
>Why is Abbadon perceived as a joke?
He's a 40k character.
>How do make him scary?
Kind of impossible.

File: Black Crusdes Brb.png (2MB, 1819x905px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1819x905px

>>50290455
What an asshole. I come back to the thread and I find that you puked out a chuck of dirt at me.

What do you do when you conduct a war against a force that has home field advantage and near-limitless numbers and sources. Guerilla warfare and hit and run tactics. Hitting the vital spots and weakening their ability to respond. This is what the Crusades was doing among other thing. Abaddon cannot get a lasting breach outside the Eye because the moment he forms one, the Imperials will drown him in their endless resources while he will lose his limited resources. It was only in the 13th Black Crusade that he gained enough power and numbers and got a solid plan to counter the Imperium might enough to actually win ground and advance.

>He may raid, but raids are not advancing a cause or a "Crusade".

Objectively false. All Black Crusades were meant as build ups and sets towards the 13th Black Crusade. All them achieved their objective and increased his power and weakened the Imperium, "advancing his cause". Says so in the fluff so that makes you a lying faggot.

>Basically Cadia still stands. Terra still stands.

Basically, you are cunt. Only the 13th Black Crusade was meant to topple Cadia and then terra.

>All the major strategic points between still stand.

False.

Abaddon blew up a lot of them in his Crusades. And what remains won't matter thanks to the Crimson Path.

>He is a useless, armless, faggot that cannot actually be a threat. End of story.

Says that moron with zero knowledge aboutt he fluff and is spewing bullshit. Die in a hole please.

>>50291100
Notice that this anon didn't respond to my points which means he conceded that he is wrong.

I am glad that other anons called him out of being a moron. There is hope yet for /tg/.

His lies about there being a retcon was BTFO.

>>50289810

>Really the whole Crimson Path, and other plans just seem like Saturday morning cartoon villains

Please explain. I am hyped at seeing your understanding of it.

>>50290961
Nice history revision you got there. Archaon, prior to his novels, had as much character as Abaddon. Which is to say he had none. Back in the day, his model has viewed as one of the best models produced by GW and he was fairly popular.

>At least Abaddon has a character.

Like I said, zero.

Archaon character was explored and expanded in recent years while Abaddon's remained a non-character like most of the 40K villains in the setting. The Black Legion seres is meant to fix that but considering that the Pov is fucking Khayon who's all over his waufus, I fucking doubt it.

>>50288938
the arms of the metal abaddon model are pretty heavy. resulting in them falling off constantly if not pinned

>>50291417
That's not true, right? Can some with the model confirm this?

File: 20161118093702_1.jpg (606KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

606KB, 1920x1080px

>>50263237

Does this help?

>>50291191
Alright faggot let's get on with your points, lets look at this shit, I'm assuming your points are from the post above me >>50291158.

>Accomplishing his Goals
Abbadons Goals for the most part are fucking stupid. Accomplishing what he could
>Increased his power
Having other random Chaos Clutists want to suck your dick and the Choas gods give you a thumbs up for breaking shit Means fuck all. It's a shitty way to place importance and relevance on what was a bunch of Fucking raids on parts with centuries between each other. If the Forces of Chaos are so easily impressed with that, Then Engaging in an actual war or raiding or raiding more than semi occasionally would have impressed them even more.
>Weakening the Imperium
Oh yes wow, a bunch of Planets were scoured, How will the Imperium of Man recover with only a couple centuries between Abbadons Crusades? It's not like they have Thousands of Planets full of people and resources to rebuild with, or that they have a practices procedure for recolonizing reclaimed worlds.

>I am glad that other anons called him out of being a moron. There is hope yet for /tg/.
Ok now, you're just showing your hand. Yes those were all "Other Anons" seeing the glorious light of your Chaos Faggotry, i'm sure. Seriously, Who the fuck thinks "the more Posts from Anons I have agreeing with me, the more validated my argument is"?

The same kind of people who samefag and post on multiple devices to agree with themselves

>His lies about there being a retcon was BTFO.
I actually don't know what you're talking about here, I never said anything about a Retcon on the Black Crusades. Perhaps you confused my posts with another.

Or maybe you're just so deep in your hole of Samefaggotry, that you just automatically assume everyone else is also doing the same

>>50263237

>Abbadons Goals for the most part are fucking stupid.

This. This so much. There was a general in ww1 who "never lost" because he would set really low goals. He was a useless general but was seen as sucessful due to him always achieving his goals

>>50263506
Here's your (you) that you so desperately wanted anon.

>>50291478
>I'm assuming your points are from the post above me

Wrong posts.

>Abbadons Goals for the most part are fucking stupid. Accomplishing what he could

Is that an opinion or an actual statment from the fluff. I am going by an opinion. True using a facts from the fluff or you don't speak at all.

>Having other random Chaos Clutists want to suck your dick and the Choas gods give you a thumbs up for breaking shit Means fuck all. It's a shitty way to place importance and relevance on what was a bunch of Fucking raids on parts with centuries between each other. If the Forces of Chaos are so easily impressed with that, Then Engaging in an actual war or raiding or raiding more than semi occasionally would have impressed them even more.

Opinion. Not based on fluff. Counter with something in the fluff.

Abaddon and legion became the most powerful legion within the Eye. His personal power being above Traitor Primarchs.

Thanks to the Crusades Abaddon by the time of the 13th Black Crusade has assembled a force greater than anything Horus ever commanded. Add to this that the Chaos Gods are fully supporting him. Thanks to the thinning of the walls of reality and thE crimson path, Abaddon now has access to infinite daemon reinforcements. This is the plan he worked towards and now he has the means to crush the Imperium

>>50278253
>In complete contrast to the 40k campaign where Chaos absolutely dominated the game results, but were written to have failed.
IIRC they were winning on the ground, but Imperial Navy overwhelmingly won the vast majority of Battlefleet Gothic games, so GW wrote about how their renegates and mutants were overrunning Cadia but got cut off from reinforcements when the Imperial Navy stomped the shit out of their fleet and recaptured the orbitals.

Gee. The chaos fanboys are out in full force today. Don't you guys have jobs or something to do?..

>>50291579
>Oh yes wow, a bunch of Planets were scoured, How will the Imperium of Man recover with only a couple centuries between Abbadons Crusades? It's not like they have Thousands of Planets full of people and resources to rebuild with, or that they have a practices procedure for recolonizing reclaimed worlds.

Plenty of planets were tainted beyond recovery and had their resources siphoned to consolidate Abaddon's power in the Eye. The fruit of the weakened Imperial defences was seen when Abaddon smashed the defenders of Cadia Gate aside and poured into the nearby sectors. The Imperials there failing to push back the Black Crusaders, had to drain resources from the whole Imperium which left the all regions f Imperial space defenceless against the Xenos Onslaught. Necrons and Tyranids are vitually left to do as they please.

>Accusation of samefagging.

A new low for you. Also another lie.

No, I am not using them to validate my argument. Me posting actual fluff validates my argument all while shredding yours. I am just happy that other anons see your bullshit.

>>50291570
Keep your cancerous you, you cancer.

>>50291564
>here was a general in ww1 who "never lost" because he would set really low goals. He was a useless general but was seen as sucessful due to him always achieving his goals

Objectively false. His goal was to work towards the 13th Black Crusade which he has done admirably despite of Chaos being what it is. The fact that he united Chaos under his banner not one but THIRTEEN TIMES with the thirteen he had the full forces of the Warp and the gods united behind proves him to be a godlike commander.

>>50281598
>>50281915
>As far as a faction "needing" individual personality, what do you think of the Tyranids? Outside of Genestealer cultists, the 'nids are basically just an unstoppable tide of animals. Nobody wants to retcon in Hive Tyrants who like to chit chat before a battle or Carnifexes who long to go back to being charming, cud-chewing bovines.

The solution's simple: bring back Zoats.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Zoat
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Zoat

>>50291582
The Imperial fleet did no such thing. They chocked the supply lines of the Crusaders which prevented Cadia from fully falling to Chaos.

Chaos won a minor and established took ground of Cadia and kept it. However, the wider objective of breaking the Cadian Gate wide open failed.

>>50291595
But I am a Necron fanboy doe.

>>50264631
Holy shit. Chaos fags btfo. That was quick

>>50291602
>Plenty of planets were tainted beyond recovery
*looks at the ash-blown hell worlds that the Imperium builds its biggest cities on*
No such thing, unless he dragged them into the Warp entirely.

>had their resources siphoned to consolidate Abaddon's power in the Eye
Which will last exactly as long as it takes for the Imperium to send some more mining equipment there to start the process of ripping more resources out of the ground again.

>The fruit of the weakened Imperial defences was seen when Abaddon smashed the defenders of Cadia Gate aside and poured into the nearby sectors.
And this happened, when, exactly? Last I checked, Abaddon either got cock-blocked by Cadia, or bypassed them entirely.

>The fact that he united Chaos under his banner not one but THIRTEEN TIMES with the thirteen he had the full forces of the Warp and the gods united behind proves him to be a godlike commander.
Really good at organizing, really terrible at actually fighting.

Notice the natural progression of anti-Abaddonfags.

First, they will say that the crusades were failures.

When confronted with the fluff that the crusades were successful they proceed to

Second, they say they were retconned to be successful. Saying the old fluff they were written off as failures in the old lore

When confronted by old lore that says none of this they proceed to

third, they say his goals were stupid and he is not achieving anything.

When you loop back to telling them that the fluff says otherwise and present the fluff, they throw a tantrum.

>>50291716
>No such thing, unless he dragged them into the Warp entirely.

Yes, such thing. World tainted beyond recovery can never be settled. Dead worlds are a thing you know.

And Abaddon lives thousand of worlds burned to ash or tainted forever nearly each crusade.

>Which will last exactly as long as it takes for the Imperium to send some more mining equipment there to start the process of ripping more resources out of the ground again.

Nope, the Imperium in the Age of Ending is collapsing on itself. It could no longer afford dealing with Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, and the hundreds of xenos that are using the weakness of the Imperium to finally wreck revenge, and most focus excursively on Abaddon's Black Crusade. One example of this is the Maynarkh dynasty invasion which couldn't be stopped because the Imperials cannot afford to send forces stop them. The High lords ordered a campaign Exterminatus, nuking their own worlds, to halt the flesh hungry Necrons and contain them in their sector. This won't work due to the fact that Necrons have access to Dolmen's!

This is all thanks to the pressure Abaddon subjected the Imperium for thousands of years. The rulebook outright states that these are the final days of the Imperium.

>And this happened, when, exactly? Last I checked, Abaddon either got cock-blocked by Cadia, or bypassed them entirely.

Even the Eye of Terror campaign said it in its campaign book. The quote was copypasted in the FW Armour of the Lost and Damned book timeline.

>Really good at organizing, really terrible at actually fighting.

Consider the fact that he is winning the Long War since he first waged it, I don't think so.

>>50291820
Abaddon leaves*

>>50291739
Look at the pro-Abaddonfags.
First, they insist that his Crusades were successes.

When confronted with the fluff that the crusades were originally miserable failures instead and they had to be retconned they proceed to

Insist that it doesn't matter and the old fluff doesn't matter.

When confronted with the proof that even in the new fluff his "successes" are trivial at best and counter-productive at worst.

When you loop back around to telling them that the fluff proves otherwise, they throw a tantrum.

>>50291839
>When confronted with the fluff that the crusades were originally miserable failures instead and they had to be retconned they proceed to

I already posted ALL of the codex lore of the Black Crusades. Please show me where it says they are failures and what was retconned.

>When confronted with the proof that even in the new fluff his "successes" are trivial at best and counter-productive at worst.

You mean throwing an opinion that runs counter the the lore.

So whose side the lore is again? Not yours. Waiting on you to fulfil my request.

>>50291579
>Abaddon and legion became the most powerful legion within the Eye. His personal power being above Traitor Primarchs.
>Thanks to the Crusades Abaddon by the time of the 13th Black Crusade has assembled a force greater than anything Horus ever commanded

These statements are so vague that they barely mean anything? Does it say where these forces increase i forces magically come from?
Were there random unaligned Chaos bands just magically deciding to Join Abbadon because he gave the finger to the Imperium? If they were, then they Would have ended up joining Abbadon Anyways if he had made grander scale plans and either kept advancing or caused more destruction by staying rather than retreating into the Eye of terror for a nearly a Millenia after each Crusade. And they would have done so sooner to boot.
Are his forces being increased by the people he's enslaving and capturing? Because that would still not make very much sense of this magic power boost, because
A) most people get straight up killed rather than enslaved
B) A lot of the Slaves would get killed before they get turned to Chaos
C) Those that do get corrupted into Cultists would still have a high chance of dying because the Eye of terror is fucking shitty place to live for anyone without Plot Armor or the Favour of the Gods
And if you Keep in mind that on all of His crusades Abbadon also Lost at least some forces in war as casualties on each Crusade, these numbers don't make sense, Especially considering that the longer he waits, the more random redshirt cultists die from living there.
Are the Chaos Gods just throwing Demons at him fro wrecking shit? Because then that would default to the same reasoning as the other unaligned war bands.

>Thanks to the thinning of the walls of reality
What does that to Do with Abby that was going to happen anyways. Are you saying that the incredibly long Cooldown Period between the Crusades was justified because of it?

>>50291867
Jesus, you want me to actual spoonfeed you the fluff?

Abaddon CANNOT hold a foothold outside the Eye. He will lose and will waste resources trying to keep. Consolidating his gains in the Eye is his best option. Because yoy do know that the Imperium will drop EVERYTHING just to fight Abaddon. Necrons invading? Hive Fleets? major Waagh!? Fuck that we must stop Abaddon. That's how they think and how they acted. Also I want you to put into account that time in the Eye is distorted. A thousand real space years could be but a moment and vice versa.

The more power Abaddon gains, the more followers both daemonic and mortal flock to him. In Chaos, power attract more than anything. The Empire of the Eye contained billions of beastmen and humans who are thriving albeit in a torturous existence. The Eye can sustain human life and Abaddon's numbered swelled thanks to its offerings.

Don't believe me? Then read the novel "Daemon World" where you can see human life thriving on a Slaaneshi controlled daemon world within the Maelstorm.

>What does that to Do with Abby that was going to happen anyways.

Everything if you read what the Crimson Path is about. Abaddon will break the walls of reality forever. It's what he has been working towards for 10K years.

>>50291820
>Yes, such thing. World tainted beyond recovery can never be settled. Dead worlds are a thing you know.
*looks at Calth* And that stops the Imperium from inhabiting them how, exactly? Hell, almost all major Hive Worlds are basically uninhabitable outside the Hives!

>Nope, the Imperium in the Age of Ending is collapsing on itself.
Sure, buddy. Keep telling yourself that. The Imperium's trucking along as strong as it ever has been.

>It could no longer afford dealing with Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, and the hundreds of xenos that are using the weakness of the Imperium to finally wreck revenge, and most focus excursively on Abaddon's Black Crusade.
The only Xenos that are any serious threat to the Imperium are the Orks (solely due to their ubiquity; any individual Ork Waagh can be easily crushed) and the Tyrannids. Every other Xenos race can be easily crushed by a proper Crusade, once the Imperium's finished beating off the extragalactic invaders.

>One example of this is the Maynarkh dynasty invasion which couldn't be stopped because the Imperials cannot afford to send forces stop them.
Because angry Xenos robots are a lower-tier threat than the intergalactic bugs. Once the Tyrannids gets fought off, the Imperium will be able to go around stomping the shit out of all these petty Xenos empires one by one.

>Consider the fact that he is winning the Long War since he first waged it, I don't think so.
Sure, buddy. Keep saying that. Maybe if you say it enough, you'll actually start to believe it too.

>>50291960
>Abaddon CANNOT hold a foothold outside the Eye. He will lose and will waste resources trying to keep.
And this is why Abaddon is a miserable failure who has never accomplished anything of note. It doesn't matter what bullshit you get up to in the Warp; the only meaningful victories you can have are in the Materium, and in order to do that, you HAVE TO HOLD TERRITORY.

The only victories worth anything are the ones that take and hold planets. Abaddon has never done that, and that is why his "achievements" are all worthless, and nothing more than dust in the wind.

>>50291963
>*looks at Calth* And that stops the Imperium from inhabiting them how, exactly? Hell, almost all major Hive Worlds are basically uninhabitable outside the Hives!

The Chaos taint.

and if they managed to inhabit them, then the defences of Cadia sector wouldn't had holes in them that allowed Abaddon to pour through

>Sure, buddy. Keep telling yourself that. The Imperium's trucking along as strong as it ever has been.

Bullshit. The rulebook says it's collapsing and this are its final days. Are you putting your opinion as higher than the fluff?

>The only Xenos that are any serious threat to the Imperium are the Orks (solely due to their ubiquity; any individual Ork Waagh can be easily crushed) and the Tyrannids. Every other Xenos race can be easily crushed by a proper Crusade, once the Imperium's finished beating off the extragalactic invaders.

Nice headcanony opinion. The Tyranids pose the greatest threat according to the lore since all efforts to stop Leviathan proved a failure. Leviathan is heading towards Terra and its not slowing down. The Imperials are screwed.

The Necrons are ravaging the Imperium in a rapid piece virtually unopposed.

>Every other Xenos race can be easily crushed by a proper Crusade

That will never come. This is the last days of the Imperium.

>Because angry Xenos robots are a lower-tier threat than the intergalactic bugs. Once the Tyrannids gets fought off, the Imperium will be able to go around stomping the shit out of all these petty Xenos empires one by one.

Nice heqadcanon.

The Tyranids are among the enemies that the Imperial are ignoring for the sake of fighting of the 13th Black Crusade.

>Sure, buddy. Keep saying that. Maybe if you say it enough, you'll actually start to believe it too.

Again

Opinion vs fluff.

Abaddon was failure in old editions. He has waged 12 black crusades and there was no fluff about them. So everyone thinks about them as failed. Even if make by accident old editions shows Abaddon as warmaster who lost all his crusades and can't do shit.
But in 6th edition, CSM codex and Black Legion codex show us a new truth. Warmaster was succesfull in all his crusades and they were just a preparations to 13 black crusade. Also now he can gets shit done. Using Alpha legion(and propably Ahriman) he bring daemonic invaion to Fenris just to lure Magnus on his side and make him attack Fenris.

>>50291991
Nope, it proves that he great commander that thinks of the long term instead with his pride and ego-penis. He doesn't have to hold territory. Holding territory proves no advantages against the Imperium and only exposes the traitors to the wrath of the Imperium which, before the 13th Black Crusade, they could not face head on.

>>50292055
provides no advantages*

>>50290961
LOL
Ahem. Sorry, won't happen again.

>>50292029
rapid pace*

I would like also mention that the Necron nearly caused the whole Imperium's morale to break when they defeated the Ultramarines in Damnos.

>>50292055
He could have attacked in M32 in the wake of the Beast to grab and hold territory. He could have grabbed half of the galaxy, if he wanted to, and ground the Imperium down through sheer attrition afterwards. But he didn't, because he's a failure as a general.

Territory gives resources, it gives men, it gives a base of operations, it gives you everything you need to be an *actual* threat to the Imperium beyond raids and skirmishes that are just pinpricks on back of the behemoth that is the Imperium.

Hell, the pirate lord Karrad Vall from the FFG Rogue Trader gameline's accomplished in a hundred years than Abaddon has in a hundred times as long - at least he has a planet he owns, and he stand a real chance at permanently conquering a sector-sized area of realspace if the PCs don't stop him!

>>50291648
Me too =]

>>50291960
But that still doesn't Explain why Abbadon did so few of them and why they were presented as such shattering events.

Why were these raids done as "crusades" and done with so much time between them and not as raids every other decade or so, in a way hat would truest drain the Imperium? Why did he wait so long? If he had put more pressure on the Imperium this way, he could have accheived all of these before the 40th Millenium.

Did he just suffer from really bad Chronic Procrastination?

>>50292029
>Bullshit. The rulebook says it's collapsing and this are its final days. Are you putting your opinion as higher than the fluff?
>That will never come. This is the last days of the Imperium.
And in the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium, there is only war.

Except that there isn't; there's plenty of people who live out their entire lives without ever seeing so much as a civil disruption, let alone a soldier firing a shot in anger.

And the Imperium is the most cruel and brutal regime in existence.

Except that there's plenty of planets run by reasonable people who treat their subjects well. Hell, there's an entire Sector run that way by the Ultramarines!

And so on, and so forth. All those sorts of statements can be put into the pile of "empty setting puffery that's designed to set the game's mood" and safely ignored.

>>50292153
>He could have attacked in M32 in the wake of the Beast to grab and hold territory. He could have grabbed half of the galaxy, if he wanted to, and ground the Imperium down through sheer attrition afterwards. But he didn't, because he's a failure as a general.

During the time of the Beast, Abaddon had a much much smaller warband and no means to conquer the galaxy or keep ground at that level. He didn't have the backing of the gods even. He was just another warlord in the Eye. Even if he tried, the Orks, Eldar, and Imperials would come down on him

Remember that after the 1st Crusade, the Cadian Gate was transformed to the second most fortified and defended area in the Imperium. How is it possible for Abaddon which just a handful of guys to break it open? Heck, even in the 13th Black Crusade its a tough struggle to break through it.

>Territory gives resources, it gives men, it gives a base of operations, it gives you everything you need to be an *actual* threat to the Imperium

It makes you vulnerable to being smashed and it ends costing you more resources to keep it than it gives.

>Hell, the pirate lord Karrad Vall from the FFG Rogue Trader gameline's accomplished in a hundred years than Abaddon has in a hundred times as long - at least he has a planet he owns, and he stand a real chance at permanently conquering a sector-sized area of realspace if the PCs don't stop him!

He isn't the Imperials Greatest enemy and threat.

And Abaddon, again, is not interested in taking ground. He will burn it and loot it. but taking it is out of question.

Why don't you ask Huron why doesn't try to capture territory out of the Maelstorm?

>>50291820
>This is all thanks to the pressure Abaddon subjected the Imperium for thousands of years. The rulebook outright states that these are the final days of the Imperium.
So.. none of the other races played a hand in that then? Or even any other chaos factions for that matter. Sorry to but in on y'all's argument but that's just silly. You really stick Abaddon on a pedestal

>>50292254
>During the time of the Beast, Abaddon had a much much smaller warband and no means to conquer the galaxy or keep ground at that level. He didn't have the backing of the gods even. He was just another warlord in the Eye. Even if he tried, the Orks, Eldar, and Imperials would come down on him

And the Imperium was so weak then it'd have collapsed to a stiff breeze.

>It makes you vulnerable to being smashed and it ends costing you more resources to keep it than it gives.

Only if you're retarded. You conquer one planet, then use its resources to help you conquer another one, and then you conquer another two, then another four, and so on and so forth. Aggressive expansion is the only way forward; the Tyrannids and Orks know that truth, and they're the only real threats to the Imperium in the galaxy.

>Why don't you ask Huron why doesn't try to capture territory out of the Maelstorm?
Because I already know the answer to that, too: he's also a failure. He allowed himself to be dragged into a defensive stance rather than one of continuous aggressive expansion when he was fighting the Badab War, and it cost him dearly.

>>50292223
>Except that there isn't; there's plenty of people who live out their entire lives without ever seeing so much as a civil disruption, let alone a soldier firing a shot in anger.

Actually, it said that every world in the Imperium has felt the lash of war at some point. Even the people of planets which wasn't been embroiled in war yet can hear the drum of wars.

Opinion vs fluff.

>Except that there's plenty of planets run by reasonable people who treat their subjects well. Hell, there's an entire Sector run that way by the Ultramarines!

The fluff says that the vast majority of the Imperium live lives of despair and hopelessness. Grinded down by the Imperials madness. This is the realm why Typhus's Plague of Unbelief/Zombie Plague is such a threat to the Imperium. It's a warp virus that only infected anyone who is without hope and faith, and it's said that most of the Imperium are like this.

Can there be happy planets in the Imperium? Shure but they are very very few. Most of the civilized worlds in the Imperium are utter hellholes.

>And so on, and so forth. All those sorts of statements can be put into the pile of "empty setting puffery that's designed to set the game's mood" and safely ignored.

"I ignore fluff I don't like".

The timeline which this comes from shows the periods of the Imperim and detail how the Imperium is declining and shrinking with each new age. It's not a baseless statement, it's fact in the setting.

Also did you know that the Imperium lost contact with a whole Segemtum? Segemtum Obscurus feel to darkness and the Imperium lost contact with it.

>>50292329
>And the Imperium was so weak then it'd have collapsed to a stiff breeze.

Not true.

The Imperium wasn't weak. The infighting of the High Lords prevented the forces of the Imperium to deploy accordingly to face the Ork threat.

All the defenders of Cadia didn't go anywhere. They stayed in the positions waiting for Abaddon or any CSM to get out.

>Only if you're retarded. You conquer one planet, then use its resources to help you conquer another one, and then you conquer another two, then another four, and so on and so forth. Aggressive expansion is the only way forward; the Tyrannids and Orks know that truth, and they're the only real threats to the Imperium in the galaxy.

Bullshit headcanon again.

What happened to Ork Waaagh! and Tyranid Hive fleet eventually? They were broken down, lost their momentum and were wiped out. Unlike the Tyranids and Orks, traitors cannot magically grow their forces out of thin air (not yet).

The Crimson Path lore specifically mentions this fact. I mean fuck you guys never opened a dodex in your life.

>Because I already know the answer to that, too: he's also a failure.

You mean he was smashed by the Imperial vast numbered and forced to flee the moment he was found out. Aggressive expansion against a foe with basically (at the time) had near-limitless resources? Are you crazy.

>>50292172
I just like to watch the Abaddon fanboys and Imperium fanboys go at it. But it's a lot more enjoyable to me personally watching the chaos wankers scream
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
JUST AS PLANNED

>>50292185
>But that still doesn't Explain why Abbadon did so few of them and why they were presented as such shattering events.

You do know that Abaddon funds and sponsors the other raids and black crusades of the CSM? You know the raids that continiously harrass the Imprium. Abaddon even did stuff without declaring a Black Crusade like he invaded Pandorax.

Vraks? Abaddon was behind it supporting it. The invasion of Fenris? Abaddin masterminded it to draw out Magnus from his moppiness. So on and so forth.

>>50292391
Orks do that. Tyranids do not. Literally the only strategy that works for them is aggressive expansion like that anon said. To say otherwise is your opinion. They survive off of biomass everything from their foot soldiers to their "space ships" require it to survive. That's why they're invading in the first place. Food source

>>50292391
> Unlike the Tyranids and Orks, traitors cannot magically grow their forces out of thin air (not yet).
>what are daemons
>what is Chaos corruption mind-control

>>50292435
Tyranids do it. Each planet they invade and eat only makes them larger. They start to build momentum. The forces that emerged would be bigger than the force that invaded.

With traitors, they lose momentum with each planet they conquer. Their losses aren't replenished and they need supply lines for their ammunition and reinforcements. They will lose momentum while the Imperials will drown them ceaselessly.

That's why Abaddon needs the Crimson Path to counter the Imperial numbers and give him endless reinforcements in the form of the daemons of Chaos.

LOL what a retarded discussion.

Have anyone of you hear about "The Liber Malefactt" prophecy?

>>50292455
>>what are daemons

Unreliable and unstable. They require a constant feed of psychic energy in order to maintain their forms and even then their hold ob reality is tenuous. That's why I said "Not yet", the Crimson path is the solution to this see >>50292470

>>what is Chaos corruption mind-control

Corrupted humans are insane cannon fodder that cannot be trusted to gold positions or act tactically. In the Ragnar novel during the invasion of Cadia, the corrupted Cadians just swarmed over the marines hitting them with their fists, clubs, or sharp objects. They did nothing but splash gore at the marines.

>>50263237

have him kill a primarch

>>50292544
He killed Horus Reborn.

And he defeated Angron, Mort, and Magnus.

>>50292555
>He killed Horus Reborn.
LOLwut. When did this happen?

>>50292589
Bile cloned Horus. At the end of Slave Wars.

>>50292589
The novel "Talon of Horus".

Horus Reborn was the perfect clone of Horus.

>>50276456
It would be trash because Ghazghkull is actual garbage

it doesn't matter what Abaddon's real achievements are.

all most players will see is that he is the big boss of chaos that has launched 13 giant crusades and haven't destroyed the imperium yet. it doesn't matter that it wasn't even the point of the crusades because the players will never read that as the codex doesn't talk about the crusades

it immediately paints the image of satuday cartoon villain in their heads and after that they can't take him seriously anymore

>>50292784
Who cares about casuals? If you going to sweat every thing they get wrong, then you will grow crazy.

>>50292882
i just answered OPs question.

>>50292470
No, they do not. Tyranids do not spawn out of thin air. You said I was wrong and then went on to list reasons why I was right. Are you retarded? Orks do that. They're fucking fungus. Tyranids do not. They require organic sustenence.

>>50292594
Didn't Horus not want to win because of some internal mental conflict or some shit? Something about recognizing that he himself was an abomination

>>50293020
Tyranids gather their dead and the biomass of the planet to create more Tyranids. Tyranids do not long anything when they win.

>>50293132
...... Okay
Now what does that have to do with what we were talking about?

>>50293208
Thin air is an exaggeration. What is that Tyranids and Orks gain momentum and replenish their losses on the fly as they invade. Tyranids will always increase their numbers and momentum as they conquer one world and the next unlike the traitors.

>>50263237
He's a classic GW "importance is my only character trait" faction head. They've tried so hard to make him the best Chaos Space Marine that they forgot to give him a personality. He's just a powered up generic Chaos Lord.

I'd start with an actual personality, not just a boring version of Kharn, and then use him in stories, rather than just leave him as the snarling boss of more interesting villains.

For a faction leader that actually personifies his faction, see Vect.

>>50293250
They gave Archaon a personality. WHFB is still butthurt about him being an edgy anti-hero/mary sue.

>>50293245
Still not true. There are loads of situations where they leave a planet with less than they started with. You can butcher your Imperium and chaos fluff all you want but keep your head cannon away from the nids.

>>50293338
Nope, Tyranids if they conquer the planet will add the biomass of the planet plus the biomass of their fallen and reclaim nids to make the whole much bigger. Unless they are fighting Necrons or they were denied biomass of the planet, they will always grow bigger.

And i like how you I say butchered Imperial lore when I am the only one citing rulebooks and posting pages.

>>50291470
>I'm gonna eat youuuu

>>50293403
You're stating that as a fact and then immediately contradict yourself. I don't care if you cite shit for the Imperium. You're clearly wrong about this, you even gave an example for why you are. I love Tyranids, so at least I have the decency to recognize they arent Orks. I can recognize that they aren't the end all be all even though they're my favorite unlike every chaosfag or Imperium wanker. They're two very different races. Keep your fluff wanking to the Imperium.

>>50293512
>immediately contradict yourself.

I did not.

The biomass harvesting and growing larger is stable of Tyranid lore. The fact hat you are arguing against this makes me think you are a troll.

>>50263619
>some of the less reading-able people

You have been really kind anon. Too much, I'd dare to say.

>>50263237
ABD's Soul Reaver trilogy talks about Abbadon in a pretty good and terrifying light.

Not the whole justification (or rather lack thereof) for his crusades, but the simple aura of assurance and actual charm Abbadon has.

Like, he just doesn't give a fuck what Talos thinks about him or his judgement of Abbadons Crusades. Talos isn't in his inner circle, he doesn't have to justify shit to him.

At the same time, Talos is pretty intimidated when he actually encounters Abbadon because of that. Also, you know, the whole "chosen of the warp gods", leader of the black legion, the biggest and most cohesive CSM organization - excluding the WordBearers, but even then they aren't as well equipped despite their unity as a legion, and are pretty much at Abaddons call so long as he has the favour of Chaos.

Talos calls him out, and instead of getting angry or defensive or making excuses or wild claims attempting to justify or prove himself, Abbadon pretty much tells Talos that he's going to suck Abbadons dick, and then he's going to thank him for it, and it's all just because Abbadon finds it convenient to have Talos suck his dick because Talos isn't worth the time it would take to have it be personal.

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>>50293466
Well, that destroyed any semblance of serious that this pic had. Good job anon.

>>50263619

There was a long gap between the Thirteenth Black Crusade being hyped up as the next big Chaos push and any details being released on what the first twelve actually were. Since Chaos has no significant territory gains anywhere on the map outside of the Eye of Terror, it wasn't unreasonable to assume they were all failures, and when they *did* explain what the other Black Crusade were, the explanation is that they were almost all piddly bullshit that don't make any significant difference to an enemy with a million worlds. At one stage the official fluff explanation was that Abaddon's first twelve Black Crusades had all crashed completely ineffectively against Cadia, but that this was secretly part of his plan because now all the slaughter and war had bathed Cadia in Chaos and this would cause the world to turn into a Daemon World and then...Chaos would control one more planet. Like, a really well fortified planet, sure, but there's still 999,999 where those came from, several thousand of which are directly between Abaddon and Terra. The Imperial Guard can just start pouring all their troops into the next planet down and their total decrease in combat effectiveness is going to be barely noticeable. It was supposed to make Abaddon super badass, but GW writers have no sense of scale and accidentally made him seem super pathetic instead. You still get dumbasses (including ITT) who can't wrap their heads around the fact that GW saying that Abaddon is super awesome doesn't actually make him super awesome, because most GW writers are idiots who can't think past the drama of one storyline and see how trivial the consequences of that storyline are for the bigger picture. This is where you get shit like having a grand total of a million space marines in a galactic scale conflict and somehow they're supposed to be relevant, even though any intelligent enemy can defeat them just by going around them because they can't be in two places at once and planets are big.

>>50292555
>Abby krumped Angron, Mortarion, and Magnus.
Well...I never heard that one. When it happened?

>>50294439
I thought Abbadons plan was to get the Imperium to concentrate their forces on Cadia, then pin them down there so that the rest of his forces could bypass it and attack the weakened territory behind it.

Bathing it in Chaos doesn't make sense anymore since Cadia has the Necron anti-warp pillar shit going on.

>>50267016
>>50267065
>>50267133
>>50267170
>>50267246
>>50267276
>>50267388

This is exactly the fluff that led to Abaddon being called a failure. Because these accomplishments that GW is so proud of are trivial. It's like someone bragging to a New Yorker that their hometown is bigger than Spokane. It's like a military boasting about how they can outfight Cameroon. Abaddon is Spongebob bragging about how he stubbed his toe gardening and only cried for fifteen minutes. He's a fifteen-year old suburbanite who thinks he's totally gangster because he's been in one fist fight ever, and he won. He's a yappy purse dog who tries to pick a fight with everyone he sees and thinks he's terrifying because no one ever takes him up on it. Your reductionist bullshit about Abaddon never being explicitly called a failure is just that: Reductionist bullshit. Just because there is no specific sentence that says "Abaddon totally got fucked" doesn't change that fact that in big picture terms Abaddon cannot accomplish anything significant.

>>50294708
Looks like he succeeded to me. Called Crusades to solidify his position, pay off the Warp gods in sacrifices, replace gear and equipment for his legion, weed out challengers among other CSM factions, cull the crazier ones that would otherwise be attacking the Black Legion and whatnot.

Like I posted >>50294220, Abbadons Crusades have always advanced not just one, but many of his goals. He's going slow and making sure he's prepared for his eventual push to take Terra. He doesn't want to repeat the mistakes of Horus, such as gambling on a decapitation strike.

>>50294760
>Looks like he succeeded to me.

Because you're a dishonest asshat who keeps jumping back and forth between new and old fluff as it suits you. It took GW over a decade to figure out how to make Abaddon even *remotely* threatening, and by that point the memes were already entrenched, and GW's constant retcons to try and make Abaddon seem more intimidating just came off as petulant.

Seriously, look at this: >>50267016
>>50267065

This article is something you, yourself posted because you thought it supported your side of the argument, because some idiot at GW talks about how Abaddon is super cool and dangerous for destroying "entire star systems." So, not even full sectors, then? Just star systems? Each of which contains, like, four or five worlds? So we're looking at a total loss of somewhere in the neighborhood of like fifty planets. That isn't even close to being 1% of the Imperium's total planets, and it's not targeting the most valuable worlds, it's just whatever shit happens to be close to the Eye of Terror. And then we're supposed to be impressed because he led an attack that saw 90% casualties, but wasn't himself killed. Then he does the same thing AGAIN, except I guess it's supposed to be more impressive because this time the target was a named unit of one thousand people. Who gives a fuck? The Blood Angels could be completely annihilated and it wouldn't be tactically significant to anything, because they're 1,000 dudes and would struggle to take a single hive simply by virtue of the fact that any enemy who occupies a hive city has the numbers to just go around all the Blood Angels.

>>50294958
You . . . you don't understand the concept of "strategy" do you?

Abaddon surviving despite his force being wiped out is supposed to reinforce that he is blessed, and that he has a Capital "D" Destiny. It's a pretty common trope actually, the king that can fail but not fall.

And you're ignoring the fact that he's achieving his strategic goals of husbanding his Black Legion and preventing the Imperium from fortifying the Cadian Gate, once again keep in mind that the biggest threat to the Black Legion and all CSM really is internal dissension not the Imperium so there wouldn't really be any point to him going balls out and doing as much damage as possible. It would be a Pyrrhic victory.

And keep in mind, he's doing this shit in the most heavily defended part of the Imperium sans the system of Holy Terra itself. He's not wiping out isolated and undefended Ag worlds, or raiding Forge worlds, or Hive worlds that have a PDF and maybe a small local fleet.

He's going out and utterly destroying the support network around the Cadian gate, slowly weakening it for when he can make his final push to seize it.

I mean, "it's not targeting the most valuable worlds" is categorically wrong as they're some of the MOST Strategically valuable worlds the Imperium has as the Cadian Gate is the only stable path out of the warp. If Abaddon can seize it, then he can raid with impunity much farther afield because space is fucking big and 3 dimensional and it's pretty fucking hard to actually intercept someone unless they HAVE to go to a point like the Cadian Gate.

The Imperium doesn't have the resources to station the kind of troops they have there at every world, whereas if he seizes the Gate Abbadon will be able to concentrate his forces for attacks and project force pretty much at will into the Imperium.

Key terms for you to look up: Bottleneck. Force Projection. Blitzkrieg. Supply chain.

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>>50263237
(pic related)

>>50295320

Oh, God, the endless refrain of the idiot strategist. "But it was my plan to be a dumbass who can't accomplish anything all along!" The Cadian Gate is not a bottleneck, because #1 if it were Abaddon would be unable to ever project force past it, which he does, and #2 it's in fucking space. No, I don't give a shit about GW claims about how you can't get out of the Eye of Terror except through Cadia, all that proves is that they don't know what the fuck a bottleneck is (and neither do you). If Cadia were actually a bottleneck, Abaddon would not be burning down a couple dozen worlds every time he failed to capture it.

>And keep in mind, he's doing this shit in the most heavily defended part of the Imperium sans the system of Holy Terra itself. He's not wiping out isolated and undefended Ag worlds, or raiding Forge worlds, or Hive worlds that have a PDF and maybe a small local fleet.

No. He's doing it in a region where "[Imperial] presence ranges from the smallest listening post staffed by a handful of Tech-adepts and defended by a single platoon of Guardsmen, to the frontier worlds of the Cadian Gate where millions of men are under arms, entire continents are fortified and Imperial Navy battlegroups form impenetrable blockades." The total number of those fortress worlds? "Upon Cadia and a hundred other frontier-fortress worlds, billions of soldiers" do stuff we don't care about, what's important is that the total number of fortress worlds is somewhere in the neighborhood of a hundred. If Abaddon were targeting those exclusively, his average result of 50 worlds burned per Crusade would've seen him through the Cadian Gate by the time he got to number three. In fact, just because it's tactically useful to blind your opponent and very easy to do so in this case, it's pretty safe to say that the worlds most reliably destroyed by Abaddon are the listening posts with like forty dudes on them.

It was believed for a long time that Abaddon's Black Crusades "failed" 13 times because the Chaos gods actually have no interest in seeing him succeed and just sponsor him for their continued amusement and sustenance. It wasn't until relatively recently in lore that it was all part of Abaddon's master plan, that Abaddon is actually better than the traitor primarchs in every conceivable way, that he is literally a few steps shy of marching on Terra and taking the whole thing, and that Battlefleet Gothic players did not in fact cockblock the 13th crusade forever and ever (thanks to the retcon god).

>>50295320
>>50295530

Also, "billions of soldiers"? Bitch, a standard world of 5-10 billion inhabitants can crank out one hundred million soldiers per generation without even straining their economy. That is a 2% mobilization rate. Tithing 10% of that to the IG means that the Cadian Gate is defended by the spare population of approximately 100 somewhat sparsely populated worlds. The Cadian Gate itself includes approximately 100 fortress worlds, so according to this fluff the Cadian Gate is being manned by its own population and they aren't even going full speed, let alone drawing from other sectors. Abaddon's a fucking bitch.

>>50295574

One hundred million should be ten million, typo'd.

>>50263237
>How do make him scary?

New model. I like the old one, but it's dated and due to the armless meme, it is literally a joke.

Next, give him shit to do. He's poorly defined.

Archaon, whatever that characters flaws, had a badass quest about finding 13 Chaos artifacts and conquering the tribes of the Chaos Wastes. Whatever his flaws, he had a well defined arc. You knew exactly what he did to become the badass he's meant to be.

Abaddon seems to be Warmaster by default. His story is more about management restructuring and rebranding.

Give him a more active role in the decline of the Imperium. Have him fight off challengers in brutal and interesting ways. Give him more of a character. Have him kill a chapter master or trash Kaldor Draigo.

Finally, they need to do more to make the Black Crusades less embarrassing.

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>>50291462
My only Abaddon was second-hand and immediately set aside to be cannibalised later (now lying buried and forgotten deep in a bits box somewhere, IIRC in some state of disrepair) so I can't help too much on that front, but metal parts not wanting to stay on is hardly a unique problem. As an origin story for Abby's armlessness, it smacks of something cooked up after the fact, which people repeat as the truth simply because it's what they've heard.

I dimly recall my earliest exposure to the meme was a thread many years ago that opened with a WIP Forge World Abaddon statuette: WIP as in just the main body, since all the other components had been left off so they could be painted separately.

Most notably the arms.

Trouble is enough time has passed that I can't say with any certainty when it happened (2007?), or whether it was the original thread, a thread following on from the original thread, or even its own thread at all. But I'm confident the whole thing was spawned by something incidental like that. It's easy enough to imagine: one anon posts a pic of Abaddoo with his arms off, another decides that's the reason he keeps failing to conquer the Imperium, as the general understanding of the Black Crusades goes, and the joke sticks. Something I definitely remember is that the photos from that particular set were synonymous with Failbaddon back in the day, though they don't seem to get posted anymore.

So there you go. A bloggy, half-remembered anecdotal mess of an answer that may be completely off base, but it's as much as you're going to get unless there's someone else around who can do better.

>>50294958
>Because you're a dishonest asshat
>stealing Carnac's shtick while accusing a different anon of being him

>>50297057
>A bloggy, half-remembered anecdotal mess of an answer that may be completely off base
no, you've got it about right

The eye of terror campaign was a bit fresher in people's minds, the retcons and "previously unknown details" of earlier crusades hadn't shown up in force yet, and carnac was too busy fellating the tau to worry about defending abaddon's honor.

What a time early-mid 4th edition 40k was.

presumably because stuff like >>50296269 exists

>>50277363

>Retcon

The word retcon implies something was changed. The crusades always accomplished their objective. They were NEVER at any point stated to be failures. So where's your source? Your ass? It's your ass again isn't it?

>>50283290
>Abbadon has launched 13 crusades to try and conquer the Imperium

That's the lie that's been repeated on /tg/ again and again. No matter how many times a source is asked this claim will never, ever be substantiated. Same old bait for years.

>>50291839
>When confronted with the fluff that the crusades were originally miserable failures instead and they had to be retconned they proceed to

Oooh, please show us where it says that! I've been waiting for years.

>>50291963

>Every other Xenos race can be easily crushed by a proper Crusade, once the Imperium's finished beating off the extragalactic invaders.
>This is what Imperial fags believe

Imperium doesn't even have the resources to wipe out the Tau. The fucking TAU. Their resources are spread paper thin on ever front, and they're losing on every front.

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>>50294708

>Ram into the heart of enemy territory and steal Blackstone Fortresses from them while burning scores of planets to the ground
>I-it's no b-big deal guys
>W-we don't need the most powerful weapons known to the galaxy

>>50294958

>GW's constant retcons

Speaking of dishonest asshats...

>memes were already entrenched

Oh wow, you hear that guys? There were memes. Good citation.

>>50294708
So basically you have no proof to what you are saying and are just saying his failure because you want him to be failure despite the lore saying he is the most successful Chaos warlord with more power than any Chaos character with the support of the Chaos Gods behind. He became the number 1 enemy that the Imperium fears above all.

The dishonesty is staggering. The Cadian Gate thanks to him punching holes in folded in the Eye of Terror campaign and allowed his vast forces to crash into nearby sectors.

To put it mildly you are wrong.

>>50291963
>Necrons can be krumped by a single Crusade!

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>>50294958
>Who gives a fuck? The Blood Angels could be completely annihilated and it wouldn't be tactically significant to anything, because they're 1,000 dudes

Each time a a First Founding chapter is sent to near extinction the Imperial nearly breaks in despair. They are not just 1000. They are THE 1000 dudes that the Imperium needs alive.

You ever read any fluff where the First Founding marines were wiped out or curbstomped? When the Orks obliterated the Imperial Fists from existence, the Imperials took every effort to hide this from the masses because if knowledge of this came out, then the Imperial spirit would be crushed.

A similar thing happened when the Ultramarines lost to the Necrons on Damnos. The whole Imperial morale nearly collapsed when news of it got out despite the Inquisition best efforts to hide the truth, and the High Lords scrambled to solve the situation. The Ultramarine suffering a singke defeat made humanity doubt itself as masters of the galaxy. Let this sink in.

And they are important worlds. Fortress worlds and defensive. You think the Cadian worlds aren't defended? You don't see how it became easier and easier for Abaddon to break through the Cadian blockade over the years thanks to him blowing holes in it?

>>50295530
>"But it was my plan to be a dumbass who can't accomplish anything all along!

Except he accomplished a lot thing which are highlighted in the fluff. Your opinion is not higher than the fluff.

> if it were Abaddon would be unable to ever project force past it, which he does

Already pointed this out. He weakened it through the Crusades which allowed each of his following Crusades to progressive further and do more damage.

> No, I don't give a shit about GW claims about how you can't get out of the Eye of Terror except through Cadia, all that proves is that they don't know what the fuck a bottleneck is

So you are saying now you know better than GW about their own setting and your opinion is higher than their lore? What the hell?

> every time he failed to capture it.

None of the 12 crusades were about capturing Cadia though.

>No

What do you mean "No". Again you throwing an opinion not based on anything against what's written in the lore. "Index Chaotica The Eye of Terror", says that the Cadian Gate is the second most defended and fortified region n the Imperium. Second only to Terra. It has a fuck ton of forces and defenses and plenty of other forces cruising nearby on speed dial waiting to join the fight. The moment Abaddon or any CSM emerge they will fall upon them.

>>50295574
Niceheadcanon. But try to use the fluff.

>>50299246
Posting Cadia Gate lore from the Index Chaotica because some morons haven't done their home work yet.

>The tides of both space and the Warp are roiled by the presence of the Eye of the Terror. As such, travel to and from that deadly region is incredibly difficult. There are many routes, all of which shift and fluctuate save one. The one and only reliable route to and from the Eye of Terror is the area of space surrounding the planet Cadia. Known as the Cadian Gate, it is the only place a sizable fleet can enter or exit the Eye of Terror, and as such, it has become one of the most strategically vital worlds in the Imperium.

>Cadia is a fortress world – a heavily guarded planet that is extremely well defended. Its entire population is geared for war and its factories and manufactorum churn out munitions, weapons, tanks and soldiers at a prodigious rate. It is perhaps the most vital location in the entire Imperium, outside of Terra, and the military strength based there is unfeasibly vast. Its entire population belongs to one branch or another of the Imperial military, the most famous of which are the Cadian Shock Troopers raised for service within the Imperial Guard. The Shock Troopers are considered some of the finest soldiers in the entire Imperium, even earning the respect of the legendary Adeptus Astartes.

>>50299288
>>The original human colonies of Cadia were destroyed by cyclonic torpedoes, for its population had been tainted due to its close proximity to the Chaos-spewing Eye of Terror. It was resettled and refortified so that late in the 31st Millennium it was ready to stand against the first of the Black Crusades. Although ultimately victorious, thanks in large part due to newly raised Space Marine Chapters and the Legio Titanicus, the early defenses proved undermanned, and the Cadian Gate was further reinforced. Since those earliest of days, the planet’s fortifications have been constantly upgraded, rebuilt and improved. So now, every city is a fortress, with the streets and buildings fashioned with great cunning by the finest military architects.

>If any major Chaos incursions wish to plague the rest of the galaxy, they must first pass through the defenses of the Cadian Gate.

>Of all approaches to the Eye, the area around the world of Cadia is most navigable, although still treacherous and uncertain. Why this might be so has thus far evaded all explanation, but many attribute the effect to the numerous alien artefacts that lie in the wilderness space around the region; or perhaps it is the ancient constructions on Cadia itself that somehow quiet the violent torrents of the Warp. Known as the Cadian Gate, this area is the most closely guarded of all regions in the Imperium, save the sacred ground of Terra itself. Orbital stations numbering in their hundreds hang in the depths of space and five thousand watch stations and listening posts can be found in planetary orbits and on otherwise deserted moons and asteroids, every eye and ear searching for some omen, some sign of impending doom and disaster.

>Fully a thousand regiments of Imperial Guard stand at constant readiness to respond to any incursion and no fewer than ten Space Marine Chapters maintain their fortress monasteries close by to watch for and strike at any threat. Three Titan Legions wait for the call to arms and untold vessels of Battlefleet Obscuras constantly make patrols and sweeps of the thousands of nearby star systems.

>>50299368
>And yet, for all this watchfulness, Chaos cannot be held at bay. Sometimes, lone vessels strike at Imperial shipping routes; treacherous agents slip through to spread their ‘wisdom’ and creeds to any unfaithful who will listen, whilst warbands constantly harry the Emperor’s forces. Most terrifying of all are the Black Crusades, when some ruthless leader rises from the ranks of the Traitors, uniting them in their unholy purpose. Pacts with dark beings are made to bring Daemons forth by archaic, corrupted sorceries. These hosts have broken through the wards placed to deflect them, killing and maiming all that lay in their path, reveling in the unholy desecration, wanton savagery and bitter revenge. For every fleet and army turned back or destroyed, another ten are gathering, waiting for the time when the vigil lapses, when the guards grow weary and the guns are untended. May that time never come – for if it does, it will be the doom of Humanity.

>- Extract from the Galaxia Daemonica Perpetua of Jerome [By order of Inquisitor Dalma, 453.M35]

>>50294578
Talon of Horus novel. To prove a point, Abaddon went to each othe traitor Primarchs and demanded they bow to him before the First Black Crusade.

Magnus, Angron, and Mort were the only ones who refused to bow. Abaddon defeated their daemonic legions and then them. He forced them to bow to him in the end.

>>50298704
You see all those posts I quoted? In which one of those posts did anything to do with Blackstone Fortresses occur?

>>50299116
>Each time a a First Founding chapter is sent to near extinction the Imperial nearly breaks in despair.

What actually significant material losses has the Imperium suffered due to the loss of any space marine chapter? If the Imperium "nearly breaking in despair" never results in them actually losing planets or fleets or anything, it's not actually strategically relevant how very sad they are.

>>50299246

>Except he accomplished a lot thing which are highlighted in the fluff.

No he didn't. He accomplished petty bullshit that GW thinks is impressive because they don't know how scale works.

>He weakened it through the Crusades which allowed each of his following Crusades to progressive further and do more damage.

Again: This is not how bottlenecks work. A bottleneck is a place you have to *capture* in order to advance. If Abbadon can just fly past Cadia under any circumstances except capturing the planet, it is not a bottleneck.

>So you are saying now you know better than GW about their own setting and your opinion is higher than their lore?

GW doesn't get to define words like "bottleneck," you dumbfuck, that's the English language, not their setting. The Cadian Gate has been repeatedly shown to not function as any kind of bottleneck at all.

>What do you mean "No"

I mean I just gave you fucking quotes from the articles you yourself were citing that prove you wrong.

>Niceheadcanon. But try to use the fluff.

I did, you dumbass. The quotes on the Imperium having a million worlds, on Cadia being guarded by mere billions of soldiers, and on the approximate number of fortress worlds are all taken straight from the article you just posted.

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>>50299489
BFG Gothic War happened about the same time as I think 3th ED CSM codex. I forgot to add it but if you read the entries in the pages they speak about how crusades were sending the Imperium reeling each time. The Gothic War/12th Crusade is THE example of how the defenses of Cadia weakened over the years and how far the traitors can reach now and how much destruction they can cause.

A prelude to the 13th Black Crusade that simply just dashed the defenses of Cadia aside and smashed forward.

>>50299473
>He forced them to bow to him in the end.
Kek. Post source for luls. And not just the book title aint noone got time to read that shit.

>>50299520
Morale is everything to the Imperium whose grip on their worlds in the Age of Ending is paper thin. By the time of 13th Black Crusade, Segmentum Obscurus, all across it, were rebelling and the Imperium lost contact with it.

Rebellion across the Imperium is spreading like wildfire in its final days.

>>50299473
Bullshit. It's canon Magnus refused Abaddon an audience so he turned to Ahriman.

>>50299558
>No he didn't. He accomplished petty bullshit that GW thinks is impressive because they don't know how scale works.

Their setting, their scale. Your opinion on the matter is irrelevant to theirs.

>Again: This is not how bottlenecks work. A bottleneck is a place you have to *capture* in order to advance. If Abbadon can just fly past Cadia under any circumstances except capturing the planet, it is not a bottleneck.

But it is. You don't have to capture a bottleneck/blockade to advance. You just need to pass through/fight through. It becomes easier to do so each time you blow holes in them by burning their fortress worlds.

>GW doesn't get to define words like "bottleneck,

In their setting, they fucking do. Again, you are throwing your opinion as if it's faces in the setting.

>I mean I just gave you fucking quotes from the articles you yourself were citing that prove you wrong.

No, you didn't. By "No" you were disbelieving that Cadia is the second mot defended region in the Imperium. So tell me where is in that articile does it say this isn't true? Nowhere/

>I did, you dumbass. The quotes on the Imperium having a million worlds, on Cadia being guarded by mere billions of soldiers, and on the approximate number of fortress worlds are all taken straight from the article you just posted.

You didn't. You acted like the guys on Cadia are the only forces IN ALL guys defended the Cadian Gate. Which is false. There are others with them as pointed in the Index Chaotica.

And the Cadian are mere billions? In the fight against the Tau in Mont'ka, the Cadian forces numbered in the billions and even in the Shield of Baal war they numbered in the billions. There were billions of Cadian foots on Tau soil.

So if there are billions of Cadian all over at the Tau side of the galaxy how many are there in the Cadian Gate?

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>>50299600
>yfw the Imperium survived regardless

>>50263237
Because daemon weapons can't melt steel beams.

>>50299684
>It's canon Magnus refused Abaddon an audience so he turned to Ahriman.

Are you an idiot? Sorry, anon, but come on.

Magnus refused to meet Abaddon shortly before the 13th Black Crusade. Magnus eventually got onboard when Abaddon targeted the wolves.

Abaddon forcing Magnus to bow to him happened before the 1st BLACK CRUSADE.

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>>50299705
>yfw they survived but it's the Age of Ultramarines + crossover with AoS.

>>50299698
>Their setting, their scale.

Yeah, and GW has established the scale, and it is way the Hell bigger than anything Abbadon has done would matter to. The Imperium having a million worlds isn't something I made up, it's GW's fluff.

>You don't have to capture a bottleneck/blockade to advance. You just need to pass through/fight through.

If you fought through, you captured it. Like, maybe you don't leave a garrison behind and they recapture it as soon as you leave, but if it's actually a bottleneck, you still need to break the force that's defending it.

>In their setting, they fucking do.

Jesus fuck, Games Workshop did not redefine "bottleneck" in the context of 40k. That's something they could theoretically do, like how demons and devils are different in the context of D&D than in common language, but it is sure as shit not something GW ever did for that word. If I'm wrong, go ahead and find the part of the fluff where GW actually stated that "bottleneck" has a different definition in the context of 40k.

>By "No" you were disbelieving that Cadia is the second mot defended region in the Imperium.

You do not get to tell me what my own arguments are. When I said "no," what I was disbelieving is that Cadia doesn't have anything comparable to ag worlds, hive worlds, or forge worlds. Not only do they have planets with defenses on par with those, they have planets that are significantly *less* defended. You would understand this if you actually read complete paragraphs, since the entire following paragraph was specifically about how bullshit small the garrisons on some Cadian worlds are, and how burning down a world near the Eye of Terror isn't automatically any kind of significant accomplishment. A lot of them are actually worth way the Hell *less* than an isolated ag world, and they are sure as shit not worth nearly as much as a hive world, which produces orders of magnitude more soldiers than even a regular world.

>>50299723
Black legion supplement. Page 50 and 51.

Deal with it fgt.

>>50299698
>You acted like the guys on Cadia are the only forces IN ALL guys defended the Cadian Gate.

The quote wasn't referencing Cadians specifically or Cadia, specifically. It referenced Cadia and a hundred other fortress worlds like it.

>In the fight against the Tau in Mont'ka, the Cadian forces numbered in the billions and even in the Shield of Baal war they numbered in the billions. There were billions of Cadian foots on Tau soil.

In what way do you think the Cadians being able to send billions of soldiers away from the Eye of Terror to fight Tau suggests that Cadians are not only taxed to their limit by Chaos attacks, but also required to siphon off extra forces from other sectors? IG Regiments are referred to by home world, not posting, a Cadian regiment means they are *from Cadia*, which means that is a planet with troops to spare. Apparently shit-tons of them, more than you'd think a single planet could sustain, but I guess Cadia has extremely stable supply lines and can afford to outsource all of their agriculture, industry, etc. etc. to people from other planets. You wouldn't expect fortresses to be dependent upon supply lines to live through next Tuesday, but either way too much of their population is soldiers for them to live on their own or Cadia is secretly a hive world.

>>50299820
>Yeah, and GW has established the scale, and it is way the Hell bigger than anything Abbadon has done would matter to. The Imperium having a million worlds isn't something I made up, it's GW's fluff.

And It established that the Imperium is a crumbling realm filled to the brim with incompetence an corruption. It's a sinking ship and Abaddon putting presure on it and punching more holes only made it worse for them. Million worlds but the Imperium does not have the ability or power to direct them or take advantage of their resources to save its life.

>If you fought through, you captured it. Like, maybe you don't leave a garrison behind and they recapture it as soon as you leave, but if it's actually a bottleneck, you still need to break the force that's defending it.

Not when you taint the area beyond recovery. The holes Abaddon leaves behind are newer filled no matter how hard the Imperium tried. The Cadian Gate only got weaker over the years until Abaddon simply smashed it aside.

>fluff where GW actually stated that "bottleneck" has a different definition in the context of 40k

Cadian gate. All forces emerging from the Eye must pass through it. All of them. Without exception.

>When I said "no," what I was disbelieving is that Cadia doesn't have anything comparable to ag worlds

Again, you are acting like Cadia is the only thing in the Cadian Gate and that everything else don't exist. It's not like there is quick response forces on standby to reinforce and throw back the traitors.

Also Cadian are producing billions of IG which are considered surplus because at the same time as the 13th Black Crusade is starting these billions are in the four corners on the galaxy. For billions to bediscarded like that, Cadia must have must have hundreds of billions to spare.

>>50299600

The Imperium provoking rebellion is very different from the Imperium succumbing to despair. People paralyzed by fear and ennui don't take up arms. People who are angry take up arms. Rebellions are caused by some combination of the Imperium's bad domestic policy and Chaos' PR teams. Neither has anything to do with how many Blood Angels are currently breathing.

>>50299853

>Black legion supplement. Page 50 and 51.

Which refers to Abaddon getting the support of the primarchs prior to the 13th Black Crusade. Exactly like I said.

First Crusade is when he had them bow.

You are really stupid, anon,

>>50299960
Source your shit or fuck off Carnac.

>>50299943
> Neither has anything to do with how many Blood Angels are currently breathing.

Yes, they do, When the holy defenders of mankind prove to be mortal and fallible, then the Imperium is a lie. Mass panics and riots take place. Agents of subversion take advantage of people needing ti feel security to spread their creeds of freedom and rebellion.

>>50299970
Talon of Horus.

The last chapter when Khayon talks about the First Crusade and what they did before it.

>>50299930
>And It established that the Imperium is a crumbling realm filled to the brim with incompetence an corruption.

Abaddon fucking around until the Imperium bleeds out and dies because of its own stupidity doesn't make Abaddon an awesome badass. It makes the Imperium even more hilariously incompetent, that they can be knocked over by the stiff breeze of a guy who struggles to raze 1% of their worlds even when he's allowed to count worlds with a garrison in the double-digits.

>Not when you taint the area beyond recovery. The holes Abaddon leaves behind are newer filled no matter how hard the Imperium tried.

If the Cadian Gate is a bottleneck and also Abaddon has punched at least one permanent hole in it, then it is of exactly zero strategic utility, because again, it's in fucking space. If there is even one dead world through which Abaddon can go from the Eye of Terror to beyond the Cadian Gate, then Cadia no longer matters because Abaddon no longer needs to come within a half-dozen light years of it. They would not even be able to see Abaddon's ships dropping out of the Warp to pass through the breach until years after he had already done so, and they wouldn't have any warning from Astropaths because the world they're passing by has had the shit killed out of it. If Abaddon has punched any number of holes in the Cadian Gate at any time, from that moment onwards it is no longer a bottleneck. He's been doing that since M31, so Cadia's been strategically useless for most of the Imperium's existence. It's not a bottleneck, Abaddon just shows up to fight there all the time because I dunno, I guess he feels it would be unsporting to go around it.

>Cadian gate. All forces emerging from the Eye must pass through it. All of them. Without exception.

That's not Games Workshop redefining a bottleneck, that's Games Workshop claiming the Cadian Gate is a bottleneck. And then it doesn't ever function like a bottleneck.

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>>50299999
So says the Ubertzeentch!

>>50299930
>Again, you are acting like Cadia is the only thing in the Cadian Gate

No, I was using "Cadia" as short for the Cadian Sector because I was running up against the char limit.

>For billions to bediscarded like that, Cadia must have must have hundreds of billions to spare.

That isn't in the articles you cited. That is shit you made up. All that's proven by billions of Cadians showing up in a Tau campaign is that there are at least that many Cadians to go around, and that the Imperium doesn't feel they're too important to the defense of Cadia to keep them around.

>>50299863
>The quote wasn't referencing Cadians specifically or Cadia, specifically. It referenced Cadia and a hundred other fortress worlds like it.

I just reread the pages above. I knew something was fishy. None of them give any exact details about the strength of the Cadian Gate worlds. Are you jerking my chain, anon?

Are you trolling me?

>>50299960
Thanks for reminding me about that retarded book

The primarchs bowed before abaddon or gave him their blessing (I think?). Just lol. Anyway, how many did that?

Because ever since that last book with Dorn, Alpharius is supposed to be dead, which means Omegon is supposedly killed by Roboute too

>>50299999

How many rebellions were sparked by the loss of space marine chapters? What kind of idiot hears that the Imperium is falling apart and decides that now is an excellent time for some internecine conflict? People sometimes turn on their allies too soon because they've misjudged how decisive their advantage is over a common enemy, or because they're just spiteful and can't wait any longer to stab their hated ally of convenience in the back, but nobody rebels specifically because they're losing against a common enemy.

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>all these jokes about arms

>>50300060
>>50267246

This one does.There are "millions" of men under arms in individual frontier worlds of the Cadian Gate, and the total number of Cadia and "a hundred other frontier-fortress worlds" there are "billions of soldiers". "Frontier worlds" and "fortress-frontier worlds" are pretty definitely the same thing, because it refers to those frontier worlds host to mere millions of soldiers individually as having "entire continents [which] are fortified." It also says "entire planetary populations stand ready for mobilisation at the first sign of an incursion through the Cadian Gate", so apparently the Cadian Gate worlds are at or near 100% mobilization, which means they really are 100% dependent upon supply lines for food and weapons, which means Abaddon doesn't have any reason to even attack on the ground since a fleet battle means instant victory. That's not the only reason why Abaddon should be completely ignoring the planet, though, so apparently he just really likes fighting there.

>>50300047
>No, I was using "Cadia" as short for the Cadian Sector because I was running up against the char limit.

The article say nothing about the total number of Cadians.

>That is shit you made up.

Nope, it's from the Mont'ka book.

And that fight happened just before the 13th Black Crusade. They had to stop the Tau because if they were left unchecked they would conquer all space from Agrellan to Ultramar. Once the Tau threat was handled the Imperials made a beeline towards the Cadian Gate.

Even in Shield of Baal because the Cadian commander was on hot coals over the fact that he is wasting him there while Cadia is threatened.

And once it was over he took his ravaged forces and headed towards Cadia in a rapid pace.

>>50300121
So there is not a specific number and just vague "millions". Years later when know that now it's "billions". You passed all of this on vague statement with no specifics

You do know that 1000+ regiments means hundreds of billions now? Good god you bitched about GW's scale you should know that by millions they mean a fuckton of men and not a solid number.

>>50300066
Again.

All the daemon Primarchs bowed him.

Mort, Magnus, and Angron had to be defeated before they agreed to bow. Mort came the closet to killing Abaddon and his crew.

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>>50300073
You do know that Cypher literally sparked the rebellion across a whole Segmentum in the guise of the "voice of the Emperor".

Also the genestealer Cults took advantage of decline in the Imperium to mass rebel.

People in times of panic will flock to anyone who offers them security and they will do as they are told just to feel safe. This is what sheep do when the Shepard is dead.

>>50300199
Eh, if a Grey Knight/Grey Knights could do it then Abaddon could too.

I guess primarchs ain't so great after all, despite the whoop ass they dealt so much in the Horus Heresy books.

GW/BL are retarded and have been trying to push Chaos as the BBEG for years now.

I have no inherent problem with Chaos being the biggest threat, as long as the other factions also have a fighting-chance lore-wise. The problem arises when

- Chaos starts to supersede every other faction in endgame fluff(prophecies, macguffins or plain lore)
- Necrons become cartoonish egyptian space geezers, Orks become a running fodder joke
- Tyranids will only get to consume the galaxy after a Chaos victory (according to Ynnead prophecies)
- Horus is retconned by that faggot ADB as having always been "The False Pawn", meant to fail from the beginning to make way for Abbadon meaning the Emperor vs. Horus battle wasn't actually a pyrrhic victory that threw a wrench in Chaos' plans, it was just they intended from the beginning - I guess people at conventions endlessly making fun of Abby's numerous failed crusades compared to how seriously everyone takes Archaon in Fantasy rustled GW's jimmies.

Basically GW got triggered HARD by one Failbaddon the Armless joke too many, and BL's writers (ADB in particular) are edgy chaosfags.

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>mfw the chaosfag ITT is implying Abbadabadoo's past "successes" of

- ravaging sectors X and Y, including planets 'nobodygivesafuck" and "willneverbementionedagain"
- getting the Emperor's Children to stop grounding each other into cocaine to snort while masturbating for 5 minutes while the crusades last
- retrieving mcguffins A and B
- almost getting killed by Elfuckingdrad while retrieving the above

... are somehow noteworthy achievements

>>50300270
>- Tyranids will only get to consume the galaxy after a Chaos victory (according to Ynnead prophecies)

The prophecy had nothing to do with Ynnead. It said that if the Tyranids are allowed to win on Duriel, then that what will happen. The Tyranids lost on Duriel so the prophecy is moot now.

Anyways, Chaos was always intended to be the main bad guy. 40K is about man vs himself (sins) more than anything. Xenos are just a sideshow to this and it should be this way. Making xenos actually relevant would distract from this and muddy the meaningfulness and profoundness of the setting. It would make it just another sci-fi.

>>50300137
>The article say nothing about the total number of Cadians.

So? It says what the number of soldiers on the fortress-worlds is.

>Nope, it's from the Mont'ka book.

No it isn't. The presence of billions of Cadians in the Tau campaign is a real thing, that Cadia "must" have hundreds of billions as a result of this is shit you made up. The percentage of Cadian forces the Imperium is willing to commit to other theaters is completely unknown.

>>50300199
>So there is not a specific number and just vague "millions".

"Millions" isn't an exact number, but it's between 2,000,000 and 9,999,999. It's within an order of magnitude

>Years later when know that now it's "billions".

You didn't even read the article, evidently. It's not years later, it's two paragraphs later, on the same page, because the billions is a reference to the total forces of all fortress worlds and the millions is a reference to the population of individual fortress worlds.

>>50300231
>You do know that Cypher literally sparked the rebellion across a whole Segmentum in the guise of the "voice of the Emperor".

Okay. So? A pretender persuasively claiming superior legitimacy to the current ruling government is not even slightly similar to losing a prestigious but insignificant military unit.

>Also the genestealer Cults took advantage of decline in the Imperium to mass rebel.

The Genestealer cults didn't decide to rebel because the Imperium is weak, they decided to rebel and then later on the Imperium was weak, so they went for it. The loss of Blood Angels would not have been a significant contributor to that weakness, because they'd struggle to hold a hive city, let alone a planet.

Has the loss of a space marine chapter or other prestigious but tiny military unit actually resulted in significant, widespread rebellion for the Imperium ever?

>>50300329
>Anyways, Chaos was always intended to be the main bad guy.

Chaos wasn't even in the original release. Orks and Eldar were.

>>50300343
>So? It says what the number of soldiers on the fortress-worlds is.

A vague number.

>Cadia "must" have hundreds of billions as a result of this is shit you made up. The percentage of Cadian forces the Imperium is willing to commit to other theaters is completely unknown.

If they are willing to through billions on far away fights in the middle of mobilization for the 13th Black Crusade then the majority of the Cadians must be far greater than the billions expended on far off lands.

>"Millions" isn't an exact number, but it's between 2,000,000 and 9,999,999. It's within an order of magnitude

Again, mister GW cannot into scale, it's vague number which just means whole lot. While billions means double a lot. of men. Years later these single worlds would have billions and more to spare consider how Cadia is expending its men.

>Okay. So? A pretender persuasively claiming superior legitimacy to the current ruling government is not even slightly similar to losing a prestigious but insignificant military unit.

So the coming Black Crusade caused the guys to flock to a single guy who told them they should rebel. This is a matter of security. and once the sheep feel the shepard cannot protect, he can't even protect himself, then they would rebel.

>The Genestealer cults didn't decide to rebel because the Imperium is weak

Actually, they rebelled because the Imperium is weak in response to the Hivemind urging. The Imperium lost the capacity to defend itself. It could no longer stop them. They are free to manipulate the populace into rebelling.

> because they'd struggle to hold a hive city, let alone a planet.

Space Marines can ravage whole sectors on their own anon.

>>50300526
>Has the loss of a space marine chapter or other prestigious but tiny military unit actually resulted in significant, widespread rebellion for the Imperium ever?


Waaagh! of the Beast. The High Lords hid the death of the Imperial Fists from the masses so that they won't succumb to the terror of the Beast and surrender.

The High Lord of the Imperial Church went nuts from fear and panic after knowing about the destruction of the Imperial Fists and seeing the marines fail to stop the Orks from reaching Terra and besieging it. He ordered the worlds under his control to submit to the Orks because there is no hope. These worlds had the populace rebelling, killing anyone who was still loyal and submitting to the Orks as saviors.

This is the actions of one High Lord (of the Church) who should have been a pillar of willpower and integrity became a subversive traitor when he realized that the Space Marines and Emperor could not save him. What would be the effect of this knowledge be on the common man of the Imperium.

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>>50300371
The were men to be the main bad guys the moment they were introduced, though.

>>50300526
forgot my picture

The Imperium cannot protect you. The Space Marines are dying in droves. Time to rebel!

>>50300526
>A vague number.

So what? The entire range it covers is within the ability of the worlds of the Cadian Gate itself to supply without drawing on any other worlds at all. If you're going to try and claim that any number which isn't given down to the last digit can be whatever the fuck we want it to be, then I'm going to declare that when GW said the Imperium had "a million worlds" the actual number was probably closer to four hundred billion, one world for every star in the galaxy, and therefore Cadia's billions can easily be supplied by a tithe of just one soldier per planet.

>If they are willing to through billions on far away fights in the middle of mobilization for the 13th Black Crusade then the majority of the Cadians must be far greater than the billions expended on far off lands.

According to what? Remember all that shit you said about opinions not trumping actual written fluff? Well, that's not actually what 'opinion' means, but it's still extremely hypocritical of you to start an argument with "assuming this fluff I just pulled out of my ass is true..."

>Again, mister GW cannot into scale, it's vague number which just means whole lot.

Again going to ask whether or not you'd think it acceptable to drastically scale up the number of worlds the Imperium controls because it's not an exact number. GW is shit with scale, but they still give a scale. If they didn't, we wouldn't know they were shit at it.

>So the coming Black Crusade caused the guys to flock to a single guy who told them they should rebel. This is a matter of security. and once the sheep feel the shepard cannot protect, he can't even protect himself, then they would rebel.

Has that ever actually happened?

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>>50291462
bare witness to failbaddon the armless

>>50300526

>Actually, they rebelled because the Imperium is weak in response to the Hivemind urging.

They rebelled because they're genestealers. They were never loyal.

>Space Marines can ravage whole sectors on their own anon.

How? There's a thousand of them. If each of them killed a dude every five seconds for a year, their total body count would still be shy of modern Earth's population. If you're trying to dig GW out of the "says stupid things because they're bad at scale" hole with this, it's going really fucking poorly. The entire point here is that GW says things that are supposed to be impressive, but instead it sounds pathetic, because they don't realize how numbers work.

Unless, of course, the ravaging is mostly done from orbit, which anyone with a cruiser could've done.

>>50300568

>This is the actions of one High Lord (of the Church) who should have been a pillar of willpower and integrity became a subversive traitor when he realized that the Space Marines and Emperor could not save him. What would be the effect of this knowledge be on the common man of the Imperium.

I mean, considering that people fight to the death against overwhelming odds all the time, probably the effect on the common man of the Imperium would be way less subdued. 40k allegedly takes place with real, actual human beings. Humanity is kind of a big thing throughout the setting, in fact, and it's explicitly humans from our actual home world, which becomes a big holy site and etc. etc. All you're proving here is that High Lords are sometimes incompetent, which, like, yeah. That's not even unusual, nor is a major religious figure defecting to the other side bringing a bunch of his followers with him even slightly weird or requiring further explanation.

>>50300641
>According to what? Remember all that shit you said about opinions not trumping actual written fluff? Well, that's not actually what 'opinion' means, but it's still extremely hypocritical of you to start an argument with "assuming this fluff I just pulled out of my ass is true..."

Cadians having billions to spare for two conflicts that happen at the same time as the mobilization for coming of the 13th Black Cruasde is not an opinion.

> I'm going to declare that when GW said the Imperium had "a million worlds" the actual number was probably closer to four hundred billion

The number of Imperial worlds changes between billions to a million in the fluff because GW likes doesn't like to commit to numbers. So go ahead.

>Again going to ask whether or not you'd think it acceptable to drastically scale up the number of worlds the Imperium controls because it's not an exact number. GW is shit with scale, but they still give a scale. If they didn't, we wouldn't know they were shit at it.

They throw random words. Like I said, the size of the Imperium changes to million world, over a million, and then suddenly shoots up to billion. Scale n 40K is impossible.

>Has that ever actually happened?

"Phobos Worked in Adamant".

Spoiler alert.

A leader of forge world near the Eye of Terror fearing the coming of the 13th Black Crusade, falls under the thrall of a C'tan God. The leader convinces the fearful populace that the only way to salvation from Abaddon is abandon everything and hook themselves to some weird alien machine.

By the end of it, all human life on the Forgeworld disappeared, and in the Gates of Varl the C'tan God was smiling.