Arms and Armour Thread

>>50255076
>>/k/

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>>50255076

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>>50255164

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>>50255218

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>>50255272

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>>50255312

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>>50255389

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>>50255438

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>>50255504

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>>50255561

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>>50255615

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>>50255638

>>50255095
Fucking good, high quality post dude! You really contributed to this board with that one.

Does anyone have frogmouth bascinets aka the historical inspiration for visored barbutes?

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>>50256461
Sadly I do not have. My own folder is diverse, but doesn't include those sadly.

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>>50256565
I've only got the one image myself, and it's of a modern reproduction of mediocre quality.

>>50256630
That helmet looks pretty nice. It looks very utilitarian.

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>>50255218
>mfw the metal cowboy hats for my "green apocalypse" novel actually has historic precedent

>>50255561
QUACK

>>50256630
What would you call this? A close-barbute? I've been looking for reference images for these for a paladin character.

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>>50257493
Frog-mouth bascinet is what I search for. There are probably other words for it. It's mainly a late 14th century Italian thing.

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>>50257530
I don't know if I'd count a bascinet the same as a barbute with a visor.

>>50257623
If it's got a visor, it's not a barbute.

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>>50256630
Here's another visored bascinet (from armourer Piotr Feret)

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>>50260884

>>50255218
"you're a real aussie now boy"

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>>50255076
>Personally I am in desperate need of gambesons and other "cheap" armours.
how cheap are we talking about?

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you can't get any more cheaper than wood armour

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Still reading the last A&A thread.

It just keeps going...

Also, swords are overdone, let's see some axes (apologies for pic, only one I had).

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>>50261343
Yeah those are perfect. Gambesons and other gear used by levies and other rabble. Stuff that militias would use.

>>50261559

>>50257507
OwO
What's that?

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>>50262594

It shows how manly bastard you are, better than rest with biggest cock of the country!

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>>50262594
A codpiece.

You start out with people running around not in pants, but in hosen. The legs of the hosen leave a gap in the middle, so you put a bit of fabric there as well since your underpants probably aren't up to fashion standards.

With time, that bit got a bit mroe elaborate, and eventually fashion suggested some rather substantial pieces.

Now as men's fashion in fabric and steel were often tightly linked, these things ended up as part of armour too. Not terribly common though, fancier armour often being meant for people who remained on horseback as much as possible, where an armoured crotch wouldn't just be meaningless (there's a warhorse in the way) but also outright detrimental (decreased contact with the saddle means you won't ride as well, and that before we consider the assorted metal bits being pushed into your enters as you ride around).

And it was a pretty short lived fashion anyway.

>>50263040
That was a great response KM but please don't feed the copypasta posters in future.

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>>50263473
At such serving sizes it'd be more job trying to keep proper track of them, so I'm not terribly inclined to bother. If getting an honest answer out of a question is some kind of great "lolitrollyou" moment for someone, well, that's his problem.

Tangentially related question, what's a good place to read about Joan of Arc (Jeanne d'Arc, whatever)?

The details of what she got up to instead of the broader stuff.

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Would a mace head shaped like a regular tetrahedron be comparable to a flanged one of equal mass, at least for the purpose of suspension of disbelief in a relatively serious fantasy setting?

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>>50263930
Seems like it'd far less consistent in its impact performance, and may have an unfortunate tendency of wanting to twist in the hand in some cases if a corner impacts while it isn't in line with the shaft.

On the other hand, it isn't like it can't do horrendous damage to someone. Far form everythign back in the day was all that heavily optimised, at least as far as things appear to us in our armchairs.

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>>50263040
>And it was a pretty short lived fashion anyway.
and yet it was still lived more than some of the "fashions" of nowdays

>>50264178
>tfw trying to get a good brigandine that won't break the bank and take 3 years to ship and fucking kultofathena's have a massive gaping space where plates don't cover RIGHT up the middle

Fucking kill me

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>>50264267
that's a coat of plates anon.
This is a brigandine

>>50255076
I always like that picture

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I'm going full Lindybeige here for better or for worse, but why were Great Helms so commonly used in the High Middle Ages when the flat top makes you so vulnerable to overhead strikes? Especially considering the technology to make round helmets was already around for a pretty long time (the most recent example being the Norman helmet)?

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>>50268451

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>>50268508

>>50268480
They're easier to make. Maybe it was fashionable. It just didn't occur to anyone for a shockingly long time. People didn't really care because they preferred how it looked/felt.

>>50268480
You wear another helmet underneath it

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>>50256478
>Gee Jean-Pierre, how comes mum lets you have THREE crossbows?

>>50268480
You're not going to get struck overhead much on a horse running down infantry. Also, cheaper to make.

>>50257630
Apparently those are fakes that didn't exist in history. Barbutes didn't have visors

>>50268702
I know, but the visors that got put on them are from Italian bascinets. They look pretty much the same, just without the nasal or cheek protection with the visor up.

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>>50268480
The flat top is weak to strikes, but the edge is strong. I doubt you're going to get bonked directly on top all that often, and the flat top is cheaper to mass produce.

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>>50268721
Klappvisors look the best though

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>>50268839
How does someone even get to be so wrong?

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>>50268887
By being right

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>>50255095
...And?

>>50257204
They are called "Iron hats", which is a literal english translation both name and design of the earlier chapeau de fer.

>>50261849
>>50261849
>Gambesons and other gear used by levies and other rabble. Stuff that militias would use.

People of all strata used gambesons. And it really depends on your time and culture. >>50255708 is literally city militia armour that can be adjusted to fit by the wearer.

>>50263076
>>50263081
>>50263089
Who repro'd this beauty? Not enough "common" harnesses.

>>50268739
You're also on a horse, and have a helmet (literally, small helm) under it

>>50264267
Depending on what your using it for, you can make a decent piece by hand with nothing but some tin-snips, a thin sheet of steel, and some brass roofing nails.

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>>50268933

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>>50268919
Maybe if you want to look like a potato instead of a warrior.

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>>50268957
>Update

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>>50268970
I'm pretty sure I would shit myself if I saw a potato with a warhammer running at me

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>>50268996

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>>50268996
Fucking Ugo man.

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>>50269035

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honest question:
Why the fuck did the japanese stop using shields!?
And did the other civilized asians use shields!?

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>>50269079
Is that a shield or a breast plate or a helmet? Also the Japanese did some weird stuff.

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>>50269050
I am a firm believe that he is the reencarnation of Negroli.

>>50269116
There are some sources stating they used their helmets as shields too

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>>50268933
>>50263076
>>50263081
>>50263089
>Who repro'd this beauty? Not enough "common" harnesses.

Per Lilllund-Jensen. he's got a bit of a thing for 16th C munitions gear.

someday. when I win the lottery...

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>>50269116
The Koreans used shields at least.
Fuck finding english sources though.

>>50269142
fukken what!?

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>>50269116
They didn't. They just became situational, and had a slight revival in the 18thC as heavy bucklers for protecting against pistols (pic related)

That all said, it is a culture of mounted archers who use polearms. Up until later in their history, calling a man a "good swordsman" is an insult to their archery.

>>50269125
That is a shield and hand-spear used in traditional Ryukyu martial arts against the Niponese. Still practiced today, and apparently very effective. Used to use sea turtle shells.

>>50269171
>someday. when I win the lottery...
After my custom Ugo suit.

>>50269267
anti pistol buckler...
what a time to be alive.

>>50269208
that looks really nice though.

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>>50262594
*nuzzles ur pauldron*

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>>50269142
>>50269263
Yup. as bucklers.

>>50269292
Pic related is from "Budōgeijutsu hiden zue shohen" (武道芸術秘伝図會 初編), by Masatomi Ōmori and Utagawa Kuniyoshi, 1855, the title roughly means "martial arts secret view". This page discusses the 鉄の盾 (Tetsu no tate- iron shield) in combat.

An excellent modern book on the subject is "Samurai of Japan: A Chronology From their origin in the Heian era to the modern era" by Dorothy J Perkins.

This is a subject I have done some research into.

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>>50269354
Pic is a late 18thC 鉄の盾 (Tetsu no tate- iron shield) from the Japanese national museum of art.

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>>50269171
Actually /a&a/ what's your ideal suit of armor? What would you buy if you won the lottery?

I would probably go with something Bronze, like the one on the right here. Maybe one of those Archaic suits of Hoplite armor that completely cover your body.

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Can I get some glorious Nippon action? My folders are overwhelmed by Western kit.

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>>50269373
Im slowly finishing mine, and swapping out the simple, safety/sport oriented parts for the fancier bits. Late 15th/early 16thC Italian harness in modo antiquo.

Pic related.

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>>50269267
Erik Schmid for 12th C maill. Jeff Hildebrandt for 13th C, Graham Ashford for 14th C english harness, Per-lillelund and Roman Tereschenko for 15th, Ugo for a 16th C harness.

if you win the lottery, why settle for one?

then its a couple of bits of Peter, a flanged mace off Fabrice, Get Tod's stuff to do the crossbow, and off to Tournament Stud to learn horsemanship with Toby Capwell, Dom Sewell, and Jason and Chris Kingsley,

Well, that or persuade Mac out of retirement for a 7-figure sum, and make do with one harness.

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>>50269378

>>50268480
>>50268739
Given that Great and Enclosed Helms were pretty much exclusive to those of the knightly class who wanted the most complete form of protection, I seriously doubt that ease and cheapness of manufacture were significant motivators for the shape historically. Though they do help modern hobbyist armourers.

Especially as every basically every other form of helmet used at the time was domed/conical to act as a deflection surface.

Domed/Conical helmets follow the shape of the head fairly closely, with some allowance for padding. Flat-top helms do not, and are quite a bit larger than a persons head. This gives a lot more room not only for padding, but also air as well to act as a shock absorber safely away from your head and squishy brain.

It also seems likely that at a fairly early point in their development that floating suspension was used, much more so than in the fairly tight fitting domed or conical helms. This would greatly increase the shock absorption comapred to closer fitting helms.

The video below is on later helmets but the principle is the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itO64ZBX1jU

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>>50269378
Why? Even the Japs realize they have shitty harness and eagerly bought up as much Euro kit as they could in period.

I found all this info on shields because the Japanese ALC team is tired of getting wrecked by European fighters. All the best jap fighters use Euro equipment, and that obviously is a little shameful if they are going to present a national team.

Dumping Namban harnesses

>>50269445
Almost all my kit is Alan Bauldree, who is only in my price range because he's sponsoring me in HMB/ACL.

Capwell, Tod and Ugo are on my dream list.

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>>50269373
a single harness, money no object?

I'd get Mac out of retirement. whatever his price is, and I'd double it.

Flemish harness, C.1460. white harness, with an exchange great bascinet.

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>>50269515

>>50269496
>>50269496
>Especially as every basically every other form of helmet used at the time was domed/conical to act as a deflection surface.

Including the forms of helm that were actually used by lower class soldiers on a budget such as the kettle/iron hats mentioned in the thread, was the concluding part of that thought.

It's late, have pity.

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>>50269547

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>>50269557

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>>50269515
>Why?

Because I've been reading a book on yokai and feeling weebish.

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>>50268839
Very interesting thread, saw some European style helmets I'd never seen
before. Destroying thread with weeb pictures. Why can't you ever have
Just European styles of armor? Why must Japanese stuff always be
included "just because"? Its as bad as Blacks inserting themselves into any
discussion Whites are having that don't involve them.

No I'm not disparaging anything Japanese. Yes I know this is a general
thread for arms and armor.

>>50269723

>Why can't you ever have Just European styles of armor?
>Yes I know this is a general thread for arms and armor.

Way to answer your own question.

Found the 'MUH EUROPE' guy.

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>>50269723
>Why can't you ever have Just European styles of armor?

Nigger, that's all these threads ever are. Quit being a faggot.

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>>50269723
But I bet Bronze and Viking stuff is fine? Faggot.

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so, its now ethnographic armour thread?

Tibetan lamellar, 17th C.

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>>50269860
as god intended

>Dacian

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bone armour, Tinglit or Aleut

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Jade armour: Chinese burial goods.

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>>50269582
Fuck the Nips. The premigration Aborigines like the Ainu (who the Nipponese cribbed a lot of fashion and weapon designs from) or the Okinawans are SO much cooler.

>>50269723
Don't be a cunt.

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>>50269916

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polynesian: Kiribati.
woven coconut fibre, pufferfish helm, shark-tooth lined sword.

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>>50269782

Every time I see one its 1/3rd Euro 2/3rds Jap. Then everything
turns into weebs proclaiming the Samurai sword is the best blade
ever invented like the cringe that they are. Don't be hormonal.

Some fun links.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s_9W531ZLU
Thread Theme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPbTWDeqQf0
MEDIEVAL COMBAT WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS 2015 POLAND VS USA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzGGFVD12yk
IMCF 2015 10v10 JAPAN VS GERMANY

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India: pangolin scales.

BTW, Gropey, are you still doing later 16th C jamestown stuff?

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>>50269991
Confirmed for filthy memer or complete arms and armor newbie.

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>>50269991
>Every time I see one its 1/3rd Euro 2/3rds Jap. Then everything turns into weebs


Bullshit.

Tinglit: Reindeer Bone lamellar.

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>>50269991
You obviously don't go to many A&A threads.

>>50270000
I wish. Been doing 18thC military sciences at Colonial Williamsburg for the past few years. I would love to go back to Jamestown.

>>50269991
I'm sorry to tell you, sir, but you have a rare brain condition. You'll be able to live a normal life, but I'm afraid you'll never be able to remember any thread before the one you're currently reading.

These threads are fucking stuffed to the gills with European arms and armor. Anything east of India is a general rarity in most threads, and katana wank hasn't been in vogue for about two years now.

With therapy and help, you'll live a long and happy life. Probably.

>>50270083
>your image
Do you have a bigger image of this suit?

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>>50270083
no worries. was going to put up some interesting bits of 1560-70's jack of plates that have just come up for auction recently, including some lace-on jack sleeves, which are rare as honest politicians.

meanwhile, this just cropped up on farcebook. It seemed appropriate:

>>50269962
This is absolutely fantastic

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>>50256113
Those don't look very shiny...

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>>50270231
some more from Kiribati:

>>50269915
>Jade armour

I'm from BC. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if we started manufacturing these at some point.

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>>50269991
You have literally never been in any of /tg/'s arms&armour threads, you lying goddamn faggot.

>>50264223
Where did you take this one?

>>50255076
Why does every fantasy armor -realistic or extravagant- have pauldrons? Did knights tackle a lot of people?

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Refurbished suit(Yongzheng era) of late Ming/later Jin surcoat brigandine.

>>50270886
Getting stabbed in the shoulder sucks.

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>>50270917
because shoulders contain a huge number of muscles which are easily severed and which disable you from lifting the arm.

and in games and art, they're easy to draw.

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>>50270888
*Qianlong not Yongzheng era.

>>50270886
Because it looks cool. It gives a more imposing frame, they're easy to draw, and you can decorate them a lot.

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>>50270181
I do not, sorry.

>>50270222
Share away! Sounds interesting! Besides, 18thC is for paying the bills. Its not my interest.

>>50270886
Vast majority of blows come on a downward angle. That is why helmets and shoulder armour were some of the last bits to get phased out.

>>50269916
>Ainu

Check out Golden Kamuy, pulp manga about Ainu and ex soldiers from the Russo Japanese war. Very good.

>>50273377
>HAHA Time to FIGHT MUSSELMANNEN

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>>50269116
>>50269354
To add to the "Japanese shields" discussion - during the horse archery period of Japanese warfare, the large square pauldrons on classical o-yoroi functioned to some extent as shields.

What's more, the skirt plates would drape down over top of the fighting saddles, which had built up wooden sides that worked with the skirt plates to provide spaced-out armour all round. With this level of protection from arrows shields would not be necessary; and this setup left both hands free to shoot back with a bow or attack with a polearm.

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>>50275133
During the later Sengoku period, warfare transitioned away from duels between individualistic bands of horse archers to mass warfare akin to the era of European pike-and-shot.

This era featured far larger armies that fought in disciplined close order using pikes and firearms. This led to a decline in the traditional o-yoroi that was designed to defend against arrows via layers of labour intensive scale construction ("kozane gusoku"), and gave way to new armour-crafting styles known as "tosei-gusoku" (lit. 'modern armour').

These were built of a single or several iron plates, with the lacing far more abbreviated than on kozane (likely due to the shift towards mass production for large armies). Much as in Europe, the move to metal plates was driven by the need to defend against early firearms and heavy polearms, and often were proofed in much the same way.

European contact also gave rise to armours modeled after European cuirasses, known as "Nanban Do" (lit. "southern barbarian armour") - an example was posted earlier in >>50269557, and >>50269578 shows another example. In some cases these were literally just a European-made cuirass mated with Japanese trappings like the kabuto (helm), suneate (greaves), and kote (sleeves/armguards), but sometimes the armour was forged indigenously.

>>50255312
I WILL DRINK FROM YOUR SKULL

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>>50275186
The shield-like structures of the earlier o-yoroi disappeared from Sengoku-era armours, mostly because the large shield-like pauldrons and skirt were an impediment in hand-to-hand combat and cumbersome to move around in on foot.

The mass combat and larger armies of the time however meant that rather than using hand-shields, a retainer could carry a shield for you (in other words, a pavise) - as before, this left the samurai's hands free again to carry a ranged weapon like a bow or a firearm of their own - see the pic for an art example.

For the most part, Japanese firearm doctrine seemed to focus on accurate shooting. Unlike later European developments of the arquebus that got rid of the iron sights and instead relied on weight of fire, Japanese teppo never seemed to remove the sights.

A Tokugawa-era "manual" that describes the training of ashigaru foot troops, the Zohyo Monogatari, suggests that gunners should not open fire at further than 30 meters (90 feet), both for purposes of accuracy and to ensure the likelihood of a penetrating hit, as early bullets lost velocity quite rapidly. Zohyo Monogatari also recommends that archers not open fire until the enemy has closed to within 15 meters (45-50feet), indicating that the arquebus was considered to have double the effective range. One interesting suggestion is the idea of mixing together gunners and archers, so that the faster firing archers can cover gun-equipped troops.

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>>50269515
>Even the Japs realize they have shitty harness and eagerly bought up as much Euro kit as they could in period.

This is a bit of a misconception - early on the Japanese would have definitely purchased European cuirasses, but they more eagerly copied the European designs and went into production for themselves (as was also the case for firearms).

A great many nanban-do suits are of indigenous manufacture. Japan's not nearly as iron-poor as meme history would have you believe - most tosei-gusukou already was being made of iron plates.

The spread of nanban-do was limited moreso by the fact that European traders were more active in southwestern Kyushu and thus would have had greater contact with some factions over others (several prominent Otomo Clan daimyo, for example, converted wholesale to Christianity - most likely motivated by the prospect of further European trade), and the technical knowledge would have taken some time to diffuse further east and north. Northern clans like the Date have very few suits, for example (although even the northwestern Uesugi procured suits for their leaders - Kenshin had a suit in this style).

>>50268957
>Gothic black plate
Unf

>>50275372
Nothing about that is Gothic. Its the arched fluting that makes the gothic styling in the fifteenth century.

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>>50270222
If that man was wearing a suit of armor, he could ignore his abusive wife's puny fists. He clearly needs a night armor if only for his own protection.

>>50268933
> >>50255708 is literally city militia armour that can be adjusted to fit by the wearer.
If you mean the arms those are more for just storage purpose

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>>50270850
from /tg/, arms and armour thread

>>50269373
>Actually /a&a/ what's your ideal suit of armor? What would you buy if you won the lottery?
I have a hardon for beautifully blackened armors.
But here is a very good example I would pay for huge dosh

>>50261419
The hell is that?

>>50255076
I need axes.

Axes that look lordly and fancy. Something that could be enchanted.

>>50276063
some armor from Oceania I think. Where people fight with primitive bows and wooden weapons which may or may not have shar bone / theeth pieces in it it's a pretty good armor. Made from seaweed and various other plant parts

>>50270353
Does BC have a huge jade industry or something?

>>50269576
That looks like Killer Queen from JoJo.

>>50270886
80s padded shoulders probably originated that shit.

>>50275364
For a long time I didn't understand why feet protection were so underused through history when you get easily impaired if hurt at this place. It makes sense when you realize it's quite difficulte to hit when the guy in front of you is mobile and trying to kill you as much as you do. Maybe I was just traumatized by the Gaulois and tigers fight in Gladiator where Maximus destroys his foot with the pick of an axe

>>50269263
>>50269142
One style that still does this is Yagyu Shingan-ryu, many demos of them on youtube showing that.

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>>50276067

>>50276429
Do you have any specific videos?

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>>50276067

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>>50276067
Let's see...

>>50275186
>Much as in Europe, the move to metal plates was driven by the need to defend against early firearms and heavy polearms

Part of the shift towards plate armour, or even just larger plates in lamellar variants, may also have been driven largely by economy. When you have large enough blooms that you can do it without forge welding hammering out and shaping a single plate appears to be a generally quicker operation than hammering out and shaping dozens of smaller plates, and then lacing them all together.

If we look at Europe the plates largely start at the extremities, and work themselves inwards, with the breastplate being the last part by and large. At the same time we have a trend towards larger furnaces making larger blooms (and then larger chunks of fined pig iron).

>>50275271
>see the pic for an art example.
Though that one appears to be Kamakura period rather than Sengoku.

>>50276763
https://youtu.be/1Yl5M0Ox4gU?t=36s

Quality leaves soem to be desired, but it's somethign at least.

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>>50276067

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Make way, peasants

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>>50277289

>>50275781
No, I mean the way the straps are all open, rather than ser to hard points. There is a lot of wiggle room.

>>50276407
Because in a real fight, aiming for below the knee opens your targeting from the navel up. Its rarely a good trade.

>>50278266
>straps are all open, rather than ser to hard points
you lost me, probably language barrier. Explain what do you mean the straps are all open

>>50257204
They do make cowboy hat style hardhats, anon. No one wears them because they look fucking stupid, but they are out there.

>>50276763
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19lJerM4bj4

The helmet as a shield thing starts at 4:00, among other things.

>>50278714
He probably means there is a lot of room to adjust. The straps and ties can give more wiggle room.

>>50278846
I'll never look at my Shogun 2's ashigarus the same way

>>50277304
Anyone got any more good warhammer pics? As in historical warhammers? One handed, if possible, I'm looking for paladin inspiration.

>>50279420
Image limit reached fuck

>>50279529
>>50281103
JUMP!