Necromancy sucks.

>>50205987
Because subverting tropes is fun. Especially if it makes the GM annoyed.

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>>50206006
>having fun
>for any reason

>>50205987
Because that's just how it works in your setting, and is inherently stupid?

I play my necromancers like Diablo necromancers. Magic users who are willing to use the enemies own magic against them in order to ensure that balance is kept.

Plus, making golems and homunculi are expensive as fuck.

>>50206031
> I play my necromancers
D R O P P E D

>>50205987
>where the dead do all the menial work for the living
UNDEAD AREN'T JUST MAGICAL ROBOTS, FOR THE FUCK'S SAKE!

>>50205987
>not being an old man who raises the undead so they can protect their families

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Constructs and animated objects are a lot more expensive than undead.

Skeletons and zombies have no souls in them.

Your move.

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>>50206071
>Being this insecure.

>>50206107
> Cute catgirl necromancer!!111
Neck yourself, faggot.

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>>50206118

>>50205987
What about willing necromancy?
Or, if you're a huge dick and you know you're going to end up in hell/eternal torment, wouldn't it be better to just be a skeleton instead?

>>50206147
Yo, dawg, I've heard you don't want to face eternal torment, so I've sticked you in a skeleton, so you'll suffer from eternal torment while avoiding eternal torment.

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>>50206091
This. The Skeleton Workers union demands rights! Equal pay to breathing workers! Breaks for applying bone lacquer!

SKELLINGTONS ON STRIKE! SKELLINGTONS ON STRIKE!

Guys! Guys!

Using fire spells turns you into FIRE! You can't cast fire spells unless you are FIRE!

>>50206091
What's the difference? Skeletons are non-sentient and obey orders. There's SOME sentient undead, but necromancers usually don't/can't raise it.

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>>50205987
>>50206091
>>50206170

Just give the player what they want, then force them to live with the consequences.

>Necromancer perfects cheap, easy skeleton automaton for menial labor
>bottom immediately drops out of the job market as skeletons can do the work of two or three men with no breaks for eating or sleep, and no pay
>millions starve
>peasants are dragged out of their homes and murdered by roving bands of corpse mongers who sell fresh bodies to wizards to make more skeletons to fill the demand
>tin pot warlords crop up, power seized base solely on how many skeletons they can field
>shambling bone armies smash each other endlessly on the battlefield, corpses being re-raised the next day
>the only infrastructure that can be attacked are centers of industry and the source of bodies - population centers
>even more peasants are dragged out of their homes and murdered by roving bands of murder skeletons sent by their eldritch masters to harvest them before the enemy can

NECROMANCY ISN'T EVIL GAIS.

>>50206169
Explain to me why being a skeleton is worse, or comparable to, eternal divine torment.

What about a necromancer who only raises people who bloody well deserve it or animals?
Gets his corpses from the state, executed criminals and the like.

>>50206107
You still have to worry about rotting flesh spreading disease, breaking customs, laws and traditions and going against general good taste, but at least you aren't doing something cosmically labelled als Capital E Evil

>>50206191
>What's the difference?
Depends on a setting. But in most of them necromancy involves defying natural order and disturbing the peace of the dead.

>>50205987
Let him go about being a necromancer
His views on being a necromancer is that it isnt inherently evil and he does what he does with good intentions
However, people around him dont see it that way, they still see the dark art of necromancy doing things it shouldn't do
There is a large difference in what a person perceives as right and wrong and what the general public sees as right and wrong

>>50205987
>Why it's always skeletons and zombies? Not elementals, not golems, not homunculi, it's always undead
Provided materials. Wherever PCs go, they leave bodies. So, the player figures he can put them to use as a Necromancer.

>>50206203
Being raised as non-sentient undead is akin to being lobotomized. You technically live, but it's not you anymore, it's a bone carcass that's under necromancer's control, with your soul trapped inside. If you want to avoid Hell and enjoy it, you probably want to become a lich or a vampire instead.
Being in Hell is not even that bad - you can even shed the shackles of the opressed and become an opressor yourself yourself. Sure, it's just a lemur for a start, but you can ascend further.

>>50206197
>People use a thing to do evil
>So obviously, the thing itself is evil.

Are you retarded?

>>50206249
This isn't like fucking guns, anon. Skeletons are not a right, and there is no fair and reasonable way to limit the proliferation of skeletons. It's a can of worms that destroys society when it's opened.

>>50206197
>skeletons can do the work of two or three men with no breaks for eating or sleep, and no pay
>the farm work of three men
>skeletons don't need to eat
>somehow people starve
>people who have skeleton guards are now easier to kill and rob when they were alive
>bandits never robbed people before but do it now that skeletons are everywhere
>necromancers raise skeleton armies, something they never did before
>people being killed for war is somehow worse than people being killed in war
I can understand that you're a fun hating homo, but at least try not to be retarded.

>>50206249
But it is. All the undead, even non-sentient like zombies and skeletons, has Evil in their alignment. Not neutral like wild animals or golems or homunculi, evil. Raising undead is always evil, because it involves bringing more evil into the world.

>>50206208
I'm about to start some necromancy shenanigans with my war cleric, raising the enemies who have fought against us and forcing them to fight against their former allies. Possibly raising the odd ally so they can get revenge on the enemy

>>50206275
>Alignments
Have you tried not playing DnD?

>>50206249
>>50206270
Oh boy, are we seeing the proto-NNA here? The National Necromancy Association? Will I only pull your cold dead hands from your cold dead hands? Gonna talk about how the skeleton was a sovereign right guaranteed by the founding fathers?

Eliminating scarcity without adjusting society to suit it leads to tragedy. Why do they need them? Do you think things will magically suddenly cost nothing? Do you think every nation will have equal amounts of skeletons all at once? Do you think people won't use the new skeleton automata to exploit their fellow man? With no more value for their labor, people have nothing to contribute for money. They can't buy food. Their lords could feed them, but why?

For their bodies. For more skeletons.

People become fucking cattle. At least a serf is more valuable to his duke alive than dead. Skeleton Cattle is only valuable until it grows to full age, when it's slaughtered so it's corpse can be used to feed the Military Skeleton complex.

>>50206270
No jobs = no pay
No pay = no food
Shockingly enough, the time it takes for a society to drop the "you must work for your bread" mentality is significantly longer than it takes for someone to starve to death.

>>50206319
Speak for yourself wagecuck.

>>50206261
>Skeletons are not a right,
FUCK YOU, I WAS BORN WITH A SKELETON INSIDE ME.

>>50206327
Not an argument.

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>>50206122
>not playing a heartful nekoromancer

What are you, straight?

>>50206270
>>skeletons can do the work of two or three men with no breaks for eating or sleep, and no pay
>>the farm work of three men
>>skeletons don't need to eat
>>somehow people starve

Because they don't have a job, and thus no money. No money = no food = starving.

The problem isn't production, it's distribution. If you automate everything, that just creates a permanently unemployed class that lives in poverty. Sure, the people who control the skeletons benefit, but everyone else is shit out of luck.

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>>50206122
>he doesn't suck dicks 24/7
lol cis

>>50206308
>People become fucking cattle.
No. People adapt. They learn new skills to get jobs to feed themselves and their loved ones. Ones that, ideally cannot be replaced by a mindless skeleton.

>>50206308
If the people can be killed and starved en masse like that and do nothing about it then they were always cattle.
>>50206319
>>50206360
>being this stuck in servant mentality
As long as the food is getting made people will get to eat, do you really think that the higher ups would just burn all the food so they can starve the peasants? Society doesn't need to adjust that much, it can be practically the same except people oversee skeletons doing their work rather than working themselves. Even if skeleton owners stop making food, farmers would start making it and we'd be back to square one.

/tg/ -Ethics, Economics, and Necromancy

>>50206370
>>50206377

>people with no education or training in advance adapt to feed their families

your right, they become fucking criminals. Probably the same bandits killing and harvesting people for their skeletons

>Farmers would start making it

The lords skeleton knights come by and burn your farm to the ground and steal your food. Oh, and congrats, you are now conscripted into the skeleton army.

Post scarcity is a meme and you aren't gonna see it in a fucking medieval tier world no matter how much labor you eliminate.

>>50205987
Look up White Necromancer

Yes, it is shitty

>>50206319
I don't see a problem with the kind of necromancer who is getting undead to do all the menial labour instituting some kind of social welfare program.

Bread and circuses. Free grain and regular extreme action in the skelly arena should be enough to have the people over-look your 'crimes against nature'.

>>50206107
>Four ears
>FOUR EARS
>I'm fucking triggered

>>50206394
Alright, let's assume all this dumb shit actually does happen. What's stopping people from doing all of that without skeletons? Also, why aren't paladins popping up to put down tyrannical rulers? Heroes are always killing the big bad necromancer, why is it that suddenly there's no resistance from anyone anywhere?

>my setting has rules you are not allowed to go against, no exceptions
>you want to play something? too bad, in my setting you can't have that
>X is inherently Y, X can never be Z
jeez, just let your players have fun, it's true that the PCs have to exist within the setting, but it's just as true that the setting has to conform to the players as well

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>>50206474

We come full circle. The player wanted necromancy and he got it. Now, having seen the fruits of his wicked works, he cries out for the salvation of the sword. "Save me from what I have wrought!"

Necromancy has been proven evil. The player loses.

Deus Vult. Let the purging begin.

>>50206377
>As long as the food is getting made people will get to eat, do you really think that the higher ups would just burn all the food so they can starve the peasants?
Burn it, no. Stuff their faces at gigantic feasts that only they can afford? Fuck yes. Starving the filthy peasants is just a bonus. At long last, the dregs of man no longer need be tolerated by their betters by cruel necessity! The death of the lower classes can only lead to the ennobling of man as a whole. Now that they are not needed in the fields, they can be disposed of.

>>50206522
You conveniently ignored the main point of my post, what is stopping people from becoming tyrants anywhere at any time? If the sword can be used to put down a peasant then the sword must be evil, and the metal that it's made from, and the smith who hammered it.
>>50206551
Hey, it sure worked well for the French.

>>50206474
If necromancers rule everywhere and are this ingrained into society, mighty paladins are probably already dead.

>>50206579
paladins only need to kill evil necromancers, a necromancer can use his knowledge of life and death to be a doctor, without having to resort to prayer

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Why necromancy is always about forcing and slaving others? Why do always people assume being undead is suffering?

I mean, necromancy could be similar to LotR, one guy with some control over the undead talking to them to come and work with him, with the chance to leave after they are done. And even if they can't feel many things (like drinking a cold bear or boning a woman), there's still other ways to have fun.

Fuck, even if unconscious and unable to feel a shit because magic shenanigans, still better than burning in hell.

>>50206604
you be like the one from diablo, his skeletons are more like bone puppets

>>50206579
Can you kill a god? Can you kill all of them? Unless you do paladins can be born, warriors and mages can learn holy magic and we will reach our balance of terror that you're all so attached to.
>>50206596
That as well.

Why are you guys so obsessed with the notion that everyone is absolutely evil and evil cannot be opposed? Are you just projecting your own total lack of morals or are you mentally enslaved to contemporary pessimistic memes?

>>50205987
I played a necromancer, he animated corpes akin to animating rope. The GM accepted. Pretty fun campaign, made an army, protected a city.

>>50206596
But all necromancers are evil, anon.

>>50205987
Depends on the setting, your version of necromancy is one of many.

>>50206640
even one who just minds his own business, and provides affordable medical care, without regard to religious affiliation?

>>50206578
>You conveniently ignored the main point of my post, what is stopping people from becoming tyrants anywhere at any time?

Logistics and Economic forces that necessitate civilization. You remove both by removing labor.

>>50206654
You can be a doctor without animating corpses, anon. Being knowledgeable in anatomy isn't a trait inherent to necromancers, and necromancers don't get any healing spells either.

>>50206688
i always thought that animating corpses is a side effect of learning anatomy, and they don't get healing spells because they can do it non-magically

eh, depends on the setting

Where did this necromancy based post scarcity society come from anyway?

>>50206708
some people like to take things really far, and because evokers using lightning bolt to power machines isnt as catchy

>>50206688
But a cleric can animate the dead as well (at least in D&D 5e they can)

>>50205987

Why is enslaving an elemental spirit to power your golem any better than using a negative energy battery to animate a corpse?

Skeletons and zombies don't use a soul. You can quite literally trap someone in a soul jar or some shit and then animate their corpse. I don't even think someone who's in the afterlife is aware that their body has been turned into a puppet, unless it's explicitly a kind of undead that binds the soul.

Also, if you're in the Forgotten Realms, being a lobotomized corpse is still better than being stuck in asshat Kelemvor's Wall of the Faithless.

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>>50206463
Happy now?

generally, i always play good or neutral characters
but i also like playing many different archetypes, so it would be nice to have all options available to me, without having to resort to alignment changes which shouldnt even be a factor when deciding your character

>>50206684
And yet there are many cases where tyrants come up in the real world, starving the peasants and taking everything, but people usually resist when this happens. Out of the world that came before our current society was formed, I think that's proof enough that once most people have nothing to do because of improved methods of completing manual labor they will get educated and start pursuing something else. Necromancy can just be like this, so really it's up to society to work itself out, and it will either end in a massive improvement to everyone's way of life, or a minor loss in quality of life to people who are clearly living under tyrants already.

I never understood /tg/ obsession with being good necromancer or lich and starting industrial revolution with necromancy.Most of times you`ll be much better off with normal magic and golems for such job.
Personally I love necromancy but whole "good necromancer" is really off putting.

>>50206765
What in the fuck.

>>50206789
>but people usually resist when this happens

Tyrants don't usually have undying never ending armies, retard.

You change the way the game is played, you change the outcomes.

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I hate it when players pull this shit off because they never put any thought into their character beyond 'He's a necromancer but he's GOOD and RIGHT', with any and all conversations being segued into how enlightened they are for making undead.

Can't make a zombie/skeleton without contributing to the evil god of undeath/necromancy, so shut up and pick something interesting.

>>50206765
Got a chuckle out of me.

>>50205987
Why do people star discussions about issues that completely and entirely depend on the setting without specifying a setting? Maybe necromancy requires evil acts, maybe it doesn't really require active villainy but disturbs the natural order of things by its very nature, maybe it is a neutral thing whose negative reputation is mostly due to people's views on death, the dead and spooky shit, maybe it's a sacred and respected form of magic that allows the dead to remain a part of the society they've helped build. It depends on the fucking setting.

>>50206331
>>50206383
underrated posts

>>50206817
And what about anyone who uses holy anything? What about other leaders who will oppose them? If anything it's better for the common people who don't have to die in horrible wars because skeletons take their place in armies. Either way eventually tyrants get to the point where everyone leaves to a society not run by a giant cunt or dies, then you just have the generic necromancer BBEG that's always starting up somewhere anyway, except this time some other leaders also have skeleton armies to oppose them rather than just getting run over by them and having their villages burned and peasants slaughtered until some douchebag heroes decide to get off their asses and kill Baddy McBones the 100000th.
Or let me guess you're talking about a world where everything is ruled by one person and they have absolute say in everything, a society of course that would never result in brutal tyranny without skeletons.

>>50205987
There's an official D&D adventure based on that very premises. Well instead of a utopia he just wanted to had servants and raised his familiar.

Sounds fine except in D&D Necromancer is synonymous with "Soul-torture." God were so worried pissed they sent a preist to give him a warning and tell him to free the undead souls and stop, or else he will be judged harshly when he dies.

Guys panicked and became a lich... Adventurers killed him.

Morale of the story:

Depends On Setting.

However in most D&D worlds, it's a form of torture for the deceased. So it doesn't matter your good intentions, you are scarring eternal beings for menial labor.

Evil.

>>50206099
I raise willing ancestors from death to protect my family, as they had before me and as I will be a part of if I were to be slain.

>>50205987

Skeletons cost at least 25gp worth of obsidian to create, along with the services of a magic-user and regular maintenance to prevent decay and repair damage.

Peasant farmers cost 1gp per year, can be taxed to retrieve a portion of that investment, are self-replicating and also look nicer, at least from a distance.

The constant oversight required for skeleton workers to not botch jobs involving even minorly-skillful manual labor is akin to that required by golems, save for being caused by a lack of intelligence rather than internal objection to being mistreated. They're best used in a remotely-controlled capacity for work that doesn't suit the living, such as dealing with hazardous waste or using mercury to make hats.

>>50206866
OP specified enough about a non-specific setting's Necromancy to base the discussion off of.

>>50206895
then you are TACITLY ACKNOWLEDGING necromancy is EVIL thus DEFEATING THE ORIGINAL POINT OF THE THREAD

>>50206208
state necromancers are probably the way to get away with necro shenanigans in a totally not-completelly-evil way in alot of settings i would suspect, could even set it up so that your individual skellies (if its a setting where the soul is required to animate them anyway) are individually "sentenced" and can only be used by the necro for a set period of time before being put to final rest
but oh well jus ebils i suppose

>>50206817
But once the purges are over isn't the new society a considerably better place to live in, though?

>>50205987
In your scenario, it's inherently evil. If your player doesn't understand why, break it down into three parts:

> Forced Labor:
Even if Slavery is normally acceptable, this takes it one step further in that it requires the person to continue to work constantly. Even something as the bible would prohibit overworking the slaves or over-beating of them. Plus if your setting happens to be against slavery, then it'd be a two fold problem.
>Prohibits Death
From the way you make it sound, the necromancer stops all attempts to reach an afterlife. This would not only disrupt the natural balance of things (Likely bringing a divine agent from both death and life after him) but it would also be denying a basic right to death. Even if it's done against criminals, this is still an inhumane torture.
> The Pain:
This is perhaps the largest one. Constant pain and suffering, on a level high enough to be at least mentioned. This is not even counting the emotional pain of being stripped from peace or being constantly worked with no prospects of rest. Or the pain of the living, from seeing Great-Grandpa working the fields, his rotting flesh slowly falling from his bones as he toils the same fields he has for hundreds of years, now only forced to do it like a common slave.

All in all, there is no 'Utopia' to be found with necromancy. At best, this Utopia would benefit the living, and make harm for the dead. Any cleric of ANY religion should see this an afront to the natural balance of things, and would want to stop it. Average citizens would be in fear of the necromancer, both out of fear of their own afterlife, and the afterlife of their loved ones. And hell, even the evil individuals would fear it. After all, once they die, will they end up stuck in some menial task for the rest of their days? At least in an afterlife, they have a chance for something better.

Hence, this is clearly evil.

>>50206229
plus elementals can be hard to control depending, and golems/homunculi range from not insanely useful to gorram expensive
but skellies get made everytime the murderhobos play for more then 5 minutes

>>50206939
It could be handled like indentured servitude, if you die with debts then state repossesses your corpse and puts it to work until they're paid off (plus the additional costs of reanimating, of course).

>>50206962
was thinking more along the lines of replacing vague life sentences
no mr axe murderer
your sentenced to 186 years and your gonna fucking serve them

>>50206006
>Annoying the GM is fun

You are the worst type of person. Not player. Person.

>>50206905
Well, I'd say that sorts everything out.

>>50206921
I must have missed the part of my post where I said necromancy could only be used for evil. I suppose it's my fault for expecting you to understand that there are going to be other societies with necromancy that aren't ruled by a giant cunt without me spelling it out for you. Thank you also for capitalizing most of your post for emphasis so I can know you're as angry as you are stupid. So let me be absolutely clear here. Necromancy is a tool. Tools can be used for good or evil depending on the user. If it does not corrupt its users or force them to be evil and society becomes ruled solely by evil people then it's society that's evil inherently. If society is evil by default then there's really no damage that can be done by adding necromancy to the mix. It's the same as anything that gives power, why doesn't the benevolent wizard that protects the town just burn it all down for his entertainment? Why don't heroes just turn on the common people and become evil? It all depends on the people; if a good person gets power they use it for good, if an evil person gets power they use it for evil.

>>50205987
Let's say raising undead minions is evil (scrub-tier necromancer), what exactly about necromancy's other uses is inherently evil? Why is summoning fire to burn your enemies alive or using enchantment to control them not evil?

>>50207012
Savage

>Be able to speak with the dead
>not everyone dies in peacefully in fantasy world
>a lot of angry and sad spirits
>"Oi spooks, you protect me from harm, help me get shit done, and I'll help you find peace via revenge/delivering a message/completing a task
>"sounds good meatbag"
>you now have spirits willing to be bound to skeletal forms
>the contract is withheld, spirit rips in peace
>you break the contract, suffer the wrath of the dead
>gods of balance like nerull look favorably on you
>some spirits, possibly some heroes who simply refuse to rest, will stick with you long term if they agree with your actions

Refusing to see necromancy as anything but cackling dyels in a dungeon is a shortcoming of the DM

>>50207066
Because the retards who make these systems still use alignment charts and don't want to think about it too much.

So it's all just lazy writing.

>>50207075
>>50207012
>samefag

You outright ask where the paladins and holy men are, then say "BUT I NEVER SAID NECROMANCY WAS EVIL LEL"

If the forces of good are anathema to it, it's evil. Shithead.

>>50207108
Yes but it's easier to just see them as evil and nothing else, so you get retards like OP who constantly whine when someone tries to be different and to do something different with a class.

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>>50205987

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>>50205987
>OPs Post
>From wording presumably OP is the DM, unless he comes back to say otherwise this will be considered a safe assumption.
>OP's post says: " it traps souls in rotting bodies and brings them great pain, as they are unable to ascend to the afterlife."
>Followed by "it twists and corrupts nature"

>In OPs setting these are facts. Your opinion, fellow Anon, on how your version of necromancer does not matter. We are in OP's world now.

Now you may progress forward discussing if Necromancy is evil or not. Please note you should also be answering if Trapped Souls, Causing Great Pain, Pressed against will, and Corruption are evil or not.

Now this thread may continue.

>>50206901
>However in most D&D worlds, it's a form of torture for the deceased

That can be debated. In 3.5, depending on the level of undead created, there could be no semblance of soul attached. Raising your poor old uncle as a mummy, vampire or ghoul is certainly torture...but Skeletons and Zombies have no soulstuff in them, just a scant touch of negative energy to act as the strings moving the bones and meat along.

>>50207143
>Sigh
>...version of necromancer does...
version of necromancy works does

>>50207130
Should I take a picture for you to shout photoshop at?

>Want to be an 'ethical necromancer'
>Nobody will let you desecrate the bones of their kin and ancestors, most will probably throw you out and call the guards just for suggesting it
>Guards and soldiers are going to attack necromancers and undead on sight because they're not gonna humor the possiblity of running into the one 'good' necromancer in the continent
>No town is gonna let a dozen rotting corpses stumble about the place
>99% of non-evil religious orders are gong to slap your shit on sight
>Ghosts and spirits are gonna haunt your shit en-masse for using their corpses as tools against their living comrades
>All it takes is a more powerful necromancer to subvert your control and you're being eaten by your own free labour

Why can't you just play a fucking sorcerer or a paladin instead of being obsessed with being ~subversive~?

>>50207147
I'd say it's the other way round, vampires are fully sentient and enjoy their unlife just fine while skeletons are mindless slaves.

>>50207143
>Trapping, Causing great pain and pressing against will
>Evil

Well shit, I guess most horse tamers in a medieval setting are fucking blackhearted too then. That or you have no idea what is done to find and break a mustang into cavalry service...

>>50207165
But still no suffering on the skeletons part, seeing as there's no soul.

Also vampires can hate the fact that they need to feed.

>>50207130
It's holy versus unholy, not good versus evil. If you're going by holy = good / not holy = bad then of course it's evil, but I'm talking about actual morality, does it help or hurt people, how it actually changes people's lives.
>>50207154
I was going to say the same thing, fuck maybe we are the same person.

>>50207165
People raised as vampires may regret having no way out of it. Imagine a fine warrior culture that punishes suicide. Now you're stuck as a blood-drinking monster, unable to end it yourself by walking in the sunlight, and unable to see the line of your fathers and forefather stretched out welcoming you into an endless battle, the only way out if you can manage to die in combat, combat that you now have an edge in because of your supernatural self.

Skeletons are, as you said, mindless. They aren't even aware they are in any kind of distress.

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>>50207147
>That can be debated. In 3.5,
Libris Mortis begs to differ, Anon. As politely as I'm am able to word this. You are flat out incorrect. Skeletons and Zombies are very specifically mentioned to be trapped souls.
90% of Mummies often want said process to happen to them. So lets exclude that for now.
And in addition to the normal types there are Vampires and Ghouls where Negative energy or evil spirits in habit a previously-owned body.

So, almost the exact reverse of what you said, for D&D worlds.

>>50207196
>Maybe we are the same person
This is the internet, who knows, we could all be a part of a gestalt consciousness.

>>50207172
when these discussions come up the morality pyramid definitely has sapient humanoids at the top with domesticated animals like horses down below
thems the breaks

>>50207172
Probably, people were brutal in medieval times. But then again you fed and sheltered horses, and presumably stopped beating them after they learned. And you can`t torture a horse after it`s dead... Unless you know... Use necromancy.

Necromancy lasts for ever, even after the caster is gone. Orders of magnitude.

>>50207201
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm

The SRD is Core; Libris Mortis is optional. You can use Core without optional; you can't use splat without core.

Core trumps splat. CORE says they are mindless, can draw no conclusions of their own. Ergo, they are unaware they are even being used.

Please, try to argue another not-at-all necessary tertiary optional book as your goto for rules clarifications; I'm gonna stick with the more solid ground of the official core.

>>50206905
Putting skeletons to work making hats is some dangerous shit, anon.

Mercury causes hypercalcemia.

>>50207181
If there's no soul, what powers the skeleton to move then? That's actually a good question since Animate Object and spells like that aren't considered evil. What if you use Animate Object on a skeleton, is that necromancy or not? Can it be turned by a cleric or not?

>>50207196
>actual morality
>in D&D
Haha lol no but seriously what?

>>50207217
Druids say otherwise, and in a fantasy setting with vampires and paladins, druid rules an opinions are no different. If a NG druid would say what horse tamers do is wrong, then by correlation wouldn't they be evil? You're implying a more modern set of morality, and even that is shaky as modern societies treat some animals as fodder and others above that as companions. We'd think it twisted and vile to buy up shelter dogs to fight for sport or to cook and eat, but we have less issues with bullfighting or hamburgers...

>>50207218
Then similarly, one could argue that the "pain" the soul goes through is only during the calling and binding process, and that once ensconced in a corpse, it is at ease unless it tries to go against the necromancer's command? Not really different from spurs, no?

>>50207130
Because Lawful Good has never been antagonistic in any campaign ever. Just because the fucks have GOOD written in their IDs that doesn't mean shit.

They can oppose necromancy all they want, that doesn't immediately turn it into a bad thing to do.

>>50207259
nah, the alignment system in D&D is objective not subjective. a character's point of view doesn't affect the morality of his actions.

>>50207283
Then how can they have a class called "Dread Necromancer" that allows for nonevil characters? The class does what you state is "objectively" evil, but the class description states they can use their powers for good intents.

Just because D&D SAYS it's alignment is subjective doesn't mean the writers and game devs treat it as so.

>>50207244
Generally it's said that a bit of negative energy is put into the body to power it and the body contains that power and uses it to function, opposite to positive energy of living entities. The necromancer controls that construct running on negative energy.

This is where everyone and their brother shouts how that is horrible as it fucks with the local environment and all that crap, but they are pulling that from nowhere, if you put a skeleton somewhere say a cave, it just stands there until disturbed, and the cave is none the worse for it.

>>50207228
A: While that site is a great resource is strip out most lore. So don`t use it in a predominantly lore discussion. Pull out your actual 3.5 book.
B: Sidestepping the whole thing. Animating the undead is [Evil], because it's an evil type. The universe of rules has declared it evil. So it doesn't even matter how it specifically works it's Evil. period.

You know, since were sticking to official core.

>>50207297
Not to beat a dead horse (lol) but D&D writers and game devs not knowing what they're doing shouldn't come as a surprise to you by now.

>>50207252
Okay so you're just using retarded DnD alignments rather than actual logic to argue, that explains why it seems like you're retarded. So yes, I will give you that if you use labels for things that immediately put something in the camp of good or evil based on arbitrary bullshit rather than the actual morality of the usage of said thing, you can say that necromancy among many other things that can be used for good is in fact evil.

>>50207307
So in other words this entire discussion is pointless, as the source material is more scizo than a poster on /pol/?

>>50207298
So no soul involved then? Horrible torture and ruined afterlives are just head canon then?

>>50207275
Argue what? Parroting OP's post
> it traps souls in rotting bodies and brings them great pain
Pretty specific. Gonna have to say your assumption of only the calling being painful as flat out wrong. Please move on.

>>50207321
I wouldn't call it pointless, it's pretty entertaining and there's some fun ideas come up in the thread.

>>50207324
3.5 seemed to want to make it souls, but you can ignore that if you want, pf and editions onward seem to just brush over the subject and it seems to just be head cannon for people to parrot constantly.

Outside of DnD, your results may vary.

Isn't desecrating the dead considered Taboo in the first place?

>>50207338
Fair enough.
>>50207343
Depends on the culture, stop putting your own moral system

>>50205987
>Every setting ever is D&D 3.5

I just wish this shit would stop someday

>>50207349
Did 5th clarify at all?

>>50207343
Taboo yes, the conversation is about exactly if its straight plain primordial evil or if its just culture getting squicky
even in a setting like diablo where it isnt actually evil, cultures still consider messing with bodies fucked up and they consider it evil anyway
untill the fucking necro comes to save them in a time of crisis, then its all ok, buncha shitbags...

>>50207364
Don't think so.

You don't just say "it's evil period" you mudak king, you EXPLAIN that it:
a) uses person's soul as fuel, slowly stripping them of afterlife
b) involves tearing a small portable hole in reality for steady supply of whatever energy the undead thingie is using
c) necromantic rites involve too much magical realm for player to handle
d) asking an asshole locked away somewhere to animate a thing and give its control to you in exchange for something - a soul per 13 undead or something, thus allowing said asshole to weaken its bonds and someday fuck up the world again
etc

The Circle of Death and Shadow would like to remind all burgeoning necromancers that using your dark powers to create a utopia, provide cheap labor to the masses, or in any way benefit mankind as a whole is a serious breach of contract. Such actions are punishable by fines, seizure of any and all necromantic paraphernalia (candle holding skulls, flesh-bound tomes, excessively hooded robes, etc.), and potential eviction from the circle. Thank you for your attention.

>>50207463
>excessively hooded robes
>necromantic paraphernalia
Plz
It's obviously wizarding paraphernalia and not just necromantic one

>>50207506
Wizards wear hats, don't be silly.

>>50207531
I though witches wore hats

>>50207303
Lore isn't important; we're talking rules. I could write up a book that says evocation is powered by unicorn farts, but it wouldn't change the actual rules of "1d6 fire damage per caster level, max 10d6". The lore is irrelevant; the rules are.

>>50207636
So you agree that spells tagged with [Evil] indeed are evil?

>>50207307
It's no surprise. Which is why we have to base our discussions on rules related topics with actual game rules, not what fluffy lore that particular fanfiction.net or deviantart level writer was putting pen to page at that time.

Crunch matters more than fluff.
If the description for animating a golem mentioned that it "Wrenched a powerful elemental from its home plane, shackled it with painful bindings of eldritch runes, and crammed it into the shell of the object to move, always aware of it's tormented imprisonment" but the entry for how to make a golem doesn't say "[Evil]" or the like, then guess what? The fluff about torture doesn't mean a damn thing.

Likewise, saying Skeletons and Zombies are "tormented lost souls painfully bound to their corpses" is just as much bullshit, since the rules give them the "mindless" quality.

The wole argument is moot really since the game never has any concrete rules in core about changing alignments based on actions; only "suggestions". There's no black-and-white rule prohibiting a lawful neutral cleric from casting animate dead all day every day for skeletons and zombies to fight his battles for him. None.

>>50207594
They do, but it's a different sort of hat.

>>50207330
>Gonna have to say your assumption of only the calling being painful as flat out wrong
Doesn't say the pain is lingering either, so you have no case yourself. The wording is ambiguous; it mentions that it traps them and brings great pain. It doesn't say the pain persists for the duration of the entrapment. You read it like being crushed in a car door; I read it like a tattoo, painful during the process, but fine when it's done.

>>50207463
I chuckled.

Although this DOES bring up an alternate point: Inevitables. Even if the setting allows for animated dead to not be evil, and even if the necromancer does ask permission with each soul beforehand if they are willing to go through with it to help their community, it still violates one of the natural laws of the cosmos (Everything has an end), and eventually will attract the attention of an inevitable to correct that oversight.

>>50207709
A different sorting hat?! How many of those grumpy fuckers are there?

>>50207682
Only insofar that you also admit that there are no rules that state casting spells tagged [Evil] actually do anything to your alignment. The only rules about them are to be bolstered by effects (like evil domain) and restrict them from being cast by opposite alignment clerics. Says nothing about arcane casters or neutral.

>>50207787
wasnt healing formerly classified as necromancy at one point?

>>50207859
Yeah it was, before the "necromancy is evil forever no matter what, so healing can't be!" Thing happened and started this mess.

>>50207859
According to by 2nd ed AD&D handbook, as recently as that it was Necromancy. But then again, in 2nd Ed, clerics were called priests and didn't have a spell list by level; they had it subdivided like wizards do by "sphere"

>>50205987
Necromancer can totally work as a chaotic good character.

You torture a few to save multiple

>implying that people would lose jobs after skeloton-based automation becomes affordable
>implying the economic needs of people are finite
>implying new kinds of jobs wouldn't be created by enterprising individuals

>>50208017
>Enslavement
>Chaotic Good

Alignment system is retarded imo.

>>50208059
>enslaavement
>not lawful good
It's like you apply modern world morals to fantasy settings based on earlier times

>>50205987
>Necromancy doesn't merely animate bones, it traps souls in rotting bodies and brings them great pain, as they are unable to ascend to the afterlife. It makes the living wither and die, it twists and corrupts nature.
If that's how it works in your setting and my character is aware of that, sure, I'm gonna go an alternate route.

But there are settings where the soul energy of a necromancer can be split from themselves instead of using trapped souls: My setting for example uses this to explain why PC necromancers have such hard limits on minions while NPCs seem to have veritable armies of them at levels below what the PC usually needs to even get started. It's that necromancy is fucking hard without soul slavery and that good aligned folk would rather take that burden on their own spirits, thus not affecting other life forms.

>Do you think that necromancers live in places devoid of plant and animal life, with skies covered in black clouds, because they want to?
I know I do.

>>50208017
>You torture a few to save multiple

That's neither chaotic, not good

>>50206986
Not only are you a terrible DM, but you're a terrible friend.

>>50206308
The idea behind skelly servants is so that there don't have to be surfs and shit. People don't need to do shitty work like farming anymore because they have skellies, now they can focus on intellectual, magical, or political pursuits, stuff like that. This process would eliminate the need for civilized people doing uncivilized work

>>50207163
OH MY GOD CONFLICT IN DND?

CALL THE FUCKING DM

>>50206579
> "Necromancy is evil in ALL settings, no matter the circumstance :^)"

>>50208123
So what is chaotic good for you?

>>50206394
Or you know you could do is try to and educate these people instead? Like what most countries do?

>>50208215
A good character would find torture completely unacceptable. And given the choice between sacrificing a few to save many, or letting many suffer to save a few, a CG's choics is optimally none of the above. There's always a third option.

>>50208283
This means inquisitors are evil for you?
And if there is no third option?

>>50205987
>Player wants to upset an established paradigm
>Not doing everything you can to challenge him, so that he may shine even brighter
>Being this shit of a GM
wew

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>>50208328
>This means inquisitors are evil for you?
Are you implying they aren't?

>>50206216
> involves defying natural order
> implying natural order is inherently good
> implying plagues and parasites are inherently good

>>50208328
>This means inquisitors are evil for you?
Why are you bringing up inquisitors? Do you just mean in general? Because generally inquisitors aren't associsted sith being good. Like the necromancer question, it depends on the setting.

>And if there is no third option?
Have you ever DMed for a mostly CG group? They will ALWAYS find a third option.

>>50208141
>I don't want people to intentionally annoy me
>UGH YOU ARE THE WORST I CAN'T EVEN #NOTMYGM
Fun fact: just because it "subverts tropes" doesn't mean it's good, and only children think that way.

>>50208568
Anon I'm fucking idiot and even I can tell he's not serious.

>>50206377
>As long as the food is getting made people will get to eat, do you really think that the higher ups would just burn all the food so they can starve the peasants?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kqEXHj8Ms8

>>50210481
Rusanon here, yes, this is actually a thing that happens, and happens often in Russia. It's not something that's out of ordinary.

>>50210526
I'm russian too. And I'm not saying it's something extraordinary or even bad, that food is basically contraband and there is absolutely no guarantee it meets any quality standard.
Just pointing out that, yes, higher ups can burn all the food if they have a reason to. Russian government is not getting a lot of love for that decree, but they keep doing it all the same.

>>50206107
What's the difference between a permanent skeleton and a golem

I mean, in my setting necromancy is easier but undead fall apart/disperse as soon as the necromancer stops exerting effort unless they use special magical catalysts and put additional resources into making the undead in question permanent. Those guys are mostly regarded as creepy and weird because they CHOOSE to animate corpses instead of golems, despite their being little practical difference between the two.

On the other hand, most of them are followers of the god of death, and he grants them the ability to summon fresh materials from his plane. They can portal in full skeletons, already prepared for animation, so there's rarely any reason for them to keep permanent undead around.

But... That's just my setting. There's no real resolution to this argument because I imagine it functions in a million different ways in a million different settings.

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Evil? First of all reason is relative. And I believe that since no one is home they won't mind if I use my god given abilities to get some good out of their useless meatsack.

It doesn't matter if the necromancer is trying to do good, his methods are still evil

>>50210867
That's like saying "it doesn't matter that the French Revolution was largely responsible for popularizing European popular democracy in Western Europe, the French were REALLY mean to the nobility so it was still evil ):"

If you can make sure that the living never have to work again by torturing the dead than the ends literally justify the means.

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>>50210909
>The French revolution
>Good

>>50210931
Stop bullying the poor guy
Everyone goes full retard once a while

>>50210867
>It doesn't matter if the medicines animal testing produces save millions of lives, hurting animals is still evil!

>>50210931
Sometimes things need to get worse before they can get better.

>>50210963
Pretty sure it would be wrong if it were humans suffering for all eternity instead of animals though

>>50205987
A golem is only as good as its creator.

Necromancy lets you command the power of ancient fallen souls. Resurect sorcerors to blast your enemies with long-forgotten magics. Resurrect the greatest knights from history to defeat any mortal knight.

This is why important people are buried in such impressive graves and mausoleums. A grave stone is a sealing stone, preventing resurrection. Putting graveyards next to churches also ensures that clerics are ready to fight and destroy an necromancers and their undead.

Ancient battlefields are also seen as very dangerous places, and are frequently the sites of necromancer towers. Forgotten catacombs and family tombs can also often be necromancer hideouts.

>>50210963
It is totally evil
But it's not eternal torture evil

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>>50210971
>Sometimes things need to get worse before they can get better.
>Things got better

>>50205987
>it traps souls in rotting bodies and brings them great pain.
Depends on the system/setting.
Also would that mean if you found a body without a means to access a soul you could not animate it?
Most rules sets do not call this out specifically that things without souls can not be made undead.
> Do you think that necromancers live in places devoid of plant and animal life, with skies covered in black clouds, because they want to?
Depends on the setting.
>Why it's always skeletons and zombies?
It isn't but those are the most common because they are the easiest, does it have flesh? Zombie, is it just bones? Skeleton.

>>50211057
He's the GM silly
He makes the setting

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How would being a skeleton cause them great pain? Zombies maybe, but if your soul is attached to a skeleton, you don't have any nerves to feel pain.

>>50205987
I don't see what's so bad about this. He has a concept. He has something that NPCs will disagree with. He gets to be the edgy misunderstood guy, but he also gets to do something innovative.
If he only takes bodies that were dead for other reasons, such as natural causes or slain by adventurers, and either uses gentle repose to stop zombies rotting, or only uses skeletons or something, sure. He's a visionary.
He only wants to end hardship and scarcity. Peasants won't starve, because skeletons will do the work and provide food for them.

Otherwise, I'm working on a setting where part of the world has all the menial work done by the undead, because the streets and fields need to be cleared of snow constantly.

OP, fuck you for not wanting to work with your players and think outside of the generic fantasy box.

Wasn't there a thread about this a few months back? The gm made a campaign with a necromancer guy who wanted to create an utopia and was going to use the results on another campaign where the necromancer was the villain, or something like that.

>>50206006
>This guy is taking more responsibility and stress than the rest of us so that we all can have fun.« together.
>Haha what a jerk. Let's annoy him on purpose and continuously. That'll teach him to do things for others.

>>50205987
>Why it's always skeletons and zombies? Not elementals, not golems, not homunculi, it's always undead
For the same reason that other necromancers choose to work with the undead. It's way, way easier and cheaper to animate corpses than to summon and bind elementals or build constructs and imbue them with a motivating force. And enslaving elementals or trapping them in a golem to do your shit for you is at least as fucked up as reanimating a corpse or pile of bones. Animating mindless undead doesn't yank the soul out of the afterlife.

>>50205987
It's actually exactly the opposite. Non-sentient undead use negative energy as power. No souls, no nothing, just faceless formless energy. Golems require a trapped elemental spirit. That's why, at least in older editions, golems had a chance to go berserk. This is why necromancy being evil is stupid.

>>50211017
>Things got better
Yes, you idiot.

Replacing monarchism with popular democracy was objectively a good thing, regardless of how bloody the French Revolution itself was

>>50211593
>Replacing monarchism with popular democracy was objectively a good thing, regardless of how bloody the French Revolution itself was
>Democracy
>Good

>>50211640
>t. neoreactionary

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>>50211659
>he's not a pro-catholic monarchist
Enjoy your "freedoms"

>>50205987
And what about communicating with the souls of the dead and giving them the ability to animate stuff like armor (animated armor) or clay (clay golem)?

None of these are organic (well maybe if the clay had something in it).

Or if you have to use organic elements, then ask the soul what kind of corpses it wants to inhabit.

I mean Necromancy was at first talking with the dead to ask them what bugs them that they are so restless. You can very well go and ask a soul if it wants to join you as a party member if you give it something to gain more...substance.

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>Necromancy

>Evil

>Not turning everyone into skellies for a perfectly ordered, suffering free society under your iron will

>>50211640
>>Democracy
>>Good
To paraphrase how Churchill put it - democracy kind of sucks, it's just that everything else we tried was even worse.

>>50211681
Enjoy your "Dark Enlightenment"

>>50211728
Seriously hoping that when the Tomb Kings DLC for TW WARHAMMER hits the Steam Store, it will have Numas in it.

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>>50211738
>Kind of sucks
>Not the worst thing to happen to the western world
Stop it anon, you're just embarrassing yourself at this point

>>50211816
Democratic constitutional monarchy works fine, as long as you don't elect the wrong people.

Now fuck off back to /pol/, containmentfag.

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>>50211916
>Now fuck off back to /pol/, containmentfag.
But i like it here
>Democratic constitutional monarchy works fine, as long as you don't elect the wrong people.
>Democratic
>Working fine

>>50211970
Then leave your shit behind when you come here. Move to Somalia or Russia if you don't like democracy.

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>>50206319
So obviously the right thing to do is turn this feudal fantasy world into some sort of fantasy communist society? I'm in

>>50207303
>Casting [Evil] spells makes you evil
>Casting [Fire] spells makes you fire
>Casting [Transmutation] spells makes you a fucking attack helicopter kin

FOH

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>>50205987
>anons in thread don't understand why democracy is best option, despite all that is shit about it

>>50206197
>bottom immediately drops out of the job market as skeletons can do the work of two or three men with no breaks for eating or sleep, and no pay
>millions starve
Why can't he just give the food he grows to people?
>peasants are dragged out of their homes and murdered by roving bands of corpse mongers who sell fresh bodies to wizards to make more skeletons to fill the demand
Necromancy doesn't require living sacrifices, just dig up a graveyard

Your logic is retarded
>Oh your player wants to play a nice necromancer?
>But what if your player was a bad necromancer?
>Now your player is evil because he does evil things

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>>50213638
>having the same power on choosing major decision makers as with some retarded yokel
>country leaders get their position because of popularity instead of skill and integrity
>best option

you aint serious

>>50205987
>Why?
Recycling, wanting the dead to stay near them, less uncanny valley, quiets the fears of dying if something of you can remain in some way.

>>50206901
>However in most D&D worlds, it's a form of torture for the deceased.

No it isn't. You can yoink someone's soul out of their body, put it in a jar, then reanimate the body. Their soul is still in the jar. Undead don't need souls to function, and they are not described as requiring souls to function in the first place in most of the Monster Manuals.