D&D 4e General /4eg/

Actually okay OP.

>What effects would come from making STR/CON, DEX/INT and WIS/CHA builds apply their secondary stat to a different NAD? How would it effect build effectiveness?

STR/CON is still fucked in the skills department, and all but INT/DEX are possibly fucked in the AC department without the right type of armor, but otherwise it should help a lot.

>>50200697
Don't all the STR/CON and WIS/CHA builds have heavy armor? I can't remember all of them, but clerics and bards have chain.

Barbarians only have hide, but STR/CON opens up heavy armor feats as an option.

>>50200739
They should, yeah, I just wasn't sure.

Bards seem kind of shafted on power variety, since their powers are split between implement, melee weapons and ranged weapons. Plus they don't get a weapliment without specific enchantments. And they don't get 'melee or ranged weapon' powers like the ranger, rogue, etc.

With the multiclass feat feature, I get the feeling bards were intended to poach powers from other classes as a matter of course.

How fucked are avengers in heroic tier? I wanna be a dex/wis focused avenger but I know chaser avengers kinda suck

>>50201715
Daggers, Farbond Spellblade, Drow Long Knifes...

Bards, I feel, were almost designed as Int being one that uses implement a lot, Wis being ranged and Con being melee. Thus, unlike the Arti, the Bard was set in his path from the start.

They did leave the options available, but it's clearly not the main objective.

>>50201715
Multiclass Swordmage and grab a Farbond weapon.

Now your weapon functions as an implenment, and both a melee and ranged weapon. Now pick your powers freely.

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>>50201773
>>50201788
>Throwable Fullblade
Oh my, this presents possibilities.

I just had the most amazing session last night.
>> Nature-themed game
>> GF is druid, I am shaman, sister is barbarian, and mutual friend is warden.
>> Finally found the Far-Realm, themed big bad.
>> All fail san rolls.
>> Elect to go out with a bang in our final sane hour.
>> Lob wizardly nuke at big bad and close the portal back to the world.
>> All die.

>>50201991
I'm playing an unseelie/winter-court pixie with a heart of gold, trying to change her essence and warm up to the idea of being good-aligned.

>>50201788
or MC sorcerer and use a dagger

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>>50202412
>Using a dagger for weapon attacks as anything other than a rogue.

>>50201991
>san rolls

No such thing.

>>50202412
>>50201788
>>50201715
Or take the feat that allows Arcanes to mix and match implements from Arcane Power. That way you don't have to multiclass into something you don't want and you get access to pretty much every implement but Holy Symbols and Ki Foci.

>>50202673
I've actually considered making an INT bard with tome proficiency, playing up the bardic knowledge angle. And treating them as more of an orator than a musician.

>>50202494
You're a bard, you don't use weapon attacks for damage, you use them for their effects

Daggers have the distinct advantage of having superior implements, I'd say multiclassing sorcerer and taking accurate dagger proficiency is overall a better life choice for most bards than multiclassing swordmage and taking fullblade proficiency

Although the fullblade is funnier

>>50202863
>Although the fullblade is funnier
Well yeah. Nothing quite like your enemies freaking out over the furious lunatic wielding a massive sword, only to find out that's the BARD. So what must the BARBARIAN look like?

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>>50200697

This is a difficult issue to solve because there are still reasons to play Strength/Constitution, Dexterity/Intelligence, and Wisdom/Charisma builds, such as:
• Dwarf wardens with Dwarven Weapon Training, Crippling Crush, Sudden Roots, and World Serpent's Grasp.
• Certain Dexterity/Intelligence-based Cunning Sneak rogues with permanent Stealth.
• Charisma/Wisdom paladins in general, given their sanctions, the Astral Thunder level 7 encounter power, the Honored Foe paragon feat, and the Hospitaler paragon path.

It would be difficult to improve the defenses of weaker class builds (e.g. Mantle of Clarity bards, Virtue of Prescience bards, Wand of Accuracy wizards, wizards [bladesinger] in general) without also supercharging the stronger builds mentioned above. You would have to go through builds in a case-by-case basis to avoid, say, hyper-durable and hard-hitting dwarf wardens, or Charisma/Wisdom paladins that obsolete all other types of paladins.

>>50201715

This is not as ill an issue as it appears to be, because the Bard's Songblade and Bard's Songbow items are at level 1/6/11/16/21/26, which means the cost exactly the same as as a regular Magic Weapon. All a bard has to do is pick up one such weapon, take Battle Song Expertise, outfit the weapon with a Siberys Shard of the Mage, and be on their merry way.

That said, the Virtue of Cunning bard is probably the best of the bard builds. It has the best AC and speed, Intelligence is a great help with skills and rituals, and its powers are no worse (or better) than those of the other Bardic Virtues. Such a bard can even skip weapon powers altogether.

The Virtue of Valor bard comes in second place, since Constitution is of minimal use to a skill monkey and a ritualist, and it is stuck in the meager AC and speed of chain. However, it probably ties with the Virtue of Cunning once the paragon tier opens up the incredible War Chanter paragon path, whose action point feature and powers are outstanding.

>>50203353
>This is not as ill an issue as it appears to be
Yeah, I know it's not a huge issue. It was more of an observation on perceived design decisions.

I probably shouldn't have said 'shafted.' Gave the wrong impression.

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>>50201715
>>50203353

The Virtue of Prescience bard and the bard (skald) are tied for the title of "worst bard." The former has horrendous defenses (especially ironic considering its theme is defense and avoiding attacks), and the latter has neither Bardic Training for rituals nor a Bardic Virtue to help out in battle.

>>50201773
>>50201788
>>50201908

For a non-Virtue of Prescience bard, I would not bother with a thrown weapon for a bard, or even a Farbond Weapon. The only bard level in which a ranged weapon attack power beats out every other option is 3 due to Rhyme of the Blood-Seeking Blade, and even then, Impelling Force and Echoing Weapon are good runners-up due to repositioning and static-damage-doubling-up respectively.

I think it is much more important for a non-Virtue of Prescience bard to have a melee weapon + implement setup, and a Virtue of Cunning bard could very well play a pure implement build altogether.

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>>50203353
>>50203410

For a pure implement Virtue of Cunning bard, one could gain staff implement proficiency by being a sun elf eladrin or by multiclassing. Staff Expertise is one of the best Expertise feats for its defensive benefits. An Accurate Staff of Ruin, a Siberys Shard of the Mage, Resplendent Gloves, and a Headband of Intellect can all help with accuracy and damage. A staff implement is one-handed, so such a bard could still use a light shield, possibly a Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield +1.

Such a bard could invest in a heroic-tier power progression like this:
At-will 1: Vicious Mockery, and Cutting Words OR Staggering Note
Encounter 1: Blunder
Daily 1: Stirring Shout
Utility 2: Moment of Escape
Encounter 3: Impelling Force, OR, with a party member with many static weapon damage bonuses, Echoing Weapon
Daily 5: Song of Discord OR Timeless Trek in Mithrendain, for action denial
Utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation, an absolute must-have for healing
Encounter 7: Prescient Warning, similarly a near-mandatory power for the off-turn attack
Daily 9: Counterpoint OR Wail of Anguish
Utility 10: Illusory Erasure OR Mantle of Unity

>>50201759

Avengers only come into their own by the paragon tier, when the Painful Oath feat and the Ardent Champion paragon path become available. That path is why Pursuit is the premier Censure at level 11+.

At the heroic tier, any avenger outside of a "low optimization" game should optimize for Power of Skill-based Overwhelming Strike charging. Take it to the hilt: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise, Vanguard Weapon, Horned Helm, Badge of the Berserker, Boots of Adept Charging, and so on.

At level 1, ask your DM how they interpret Raging Tempest; if they think it has a second damage roll, take it to double-tap static damage, and if they think otherwise, select Whirlwind Charge instead.

Fury's Advance and Relentless Stride should be taken in either order at levels 3 or 7.

Githzerai is the best avenger race for Githzerai Blade Master.

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>>50202821

This is a mechanically unsupported option, unfortunately:
• Gaining tome proficiency will require a wizard multiclass, which will be somewhat wasted on redundant Arcana training.
• Magic tomes are almost exclusively tailored to wizards with wizard powers, and are of little benefit to other characters.
• Unlike wizards with Mage Hand cantrips and shamans with spirit companions, bards have too few conjurations and summons to benefit meaningfully from Tome Expertise's auxiliary benefit.

You would be better off simply highlighting the ritual book (or spellshard) you need for your Bardic Training rituals.

>>50203621
>This is a mechanically unsupported option
Fortunately, this isn't a turn off since I rarely wind up in a high op group. And I'm a borderline forever DM, since no one else I game with can run a campaign longer than three sessions.

>>50202863
Githzerai with their racial heavy blade proficiency + damage feat can afford to fullblade

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>>50205806

Githzerai also make shabby bards given their lack of a racial +2 Charisma.

If you absolutely must have Githzerai Blade Master as a bard for whatever reason, look into a revenant githzerai Virtue of Valor bard.

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Warlock's Ally sucks.
But it is a leveled warlock attack, meaning a regular, non-hexblade/non-binder warlock can take it at level 9
>If they do, do they automatically get the ally associated with their pact?
>What about fey and star pact, do they get to pick binder or hexblade?
>What about dark or SK pact, does it have no effect for them?

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>>50206061

I can find no solid answer for this in the rulebooks.

>Effect: You summon a creature associated with your pact in an unoccupied space within range.

By RAW, you would indeed receive the creature linked with whatever pact you have. There is nothing that dictates whether you would receive the binder summon, the hexblade summon, or your choice of either, nor is there anything that would spell out what happens if you have the Twofold Pact paragon feat.

Unfortunately, the Dark, Sorcerer-King, and Vestige Pacts have no associated summoned creature, so the rules enter an invalid game state the moment you try to use Summon Warlock's Ally if you have only those pacts.

This is ultimately something that the DM must try to hash out themselves.

I would simply avoid Summon Warlock's Ally altogether, and retrain away from it as a hexblade or a binder. (Yes, this is perfectly RAW-legal and supported by the online character builder, for all that program is worth.) That said, if you are playing a binder, you have far worse problems than your level 9 daily attack power, such as your entire class being worthless by controller standards and nothing more than a stripped-down Player's Handbook 1 warlock.

At level 9, Vestige of the Onyx Queen is the absolute best power for any Constitution-based warlock, since it deals area damage and petrification (save ends) in a close blast 3; a good runner up is Feast of Souls for an automatic damage zone that includes static bonuses. A Charisma-based warlock can settle for Command Insanity for a no-damage hard control option (so can Constitution warlocks, actually), or Storm Countess's Kiss to disable a melee opponent.

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>all these people talking about optimal builds for their fedora characters
shaking my head, rate my character sheet teegee.

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>>50206272
Would a hybrid binder be restricted to the binder ally, or would they get to choose, because it's a chosen daily instead of a leveled class feature?

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>>50206348

This appears to be part of a character sheet for a D&D 5e character, not a D&D 4e character.

>>50206446

I would not know at all. There is no RAW that covers this, and nothing about the

That said, you really should not be a hybrid warlock (binder) since its control powers pale in comparison to those of other hybrid controllers.

>>50206533
It's for an NPC my players will fight, so it doesn't need to be good; it's meant to die. I just liked the invisible hexblade ally because only one PC has blindsight, so it'll be like in alien where they direct their allies attacks.

>>50199774
I love this pic.

Also 4e is great and 4e Bards are phenomenal.

>>50206562
Just grab the ability. NPCs are not even remotely bound by PC creation rules.

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>>50206562

Using PC statistics for NPCs is a deplorable idea, because PCs and NPCs are built under very different mathematical assumptions, especially with regards to damage output and hit points.

PCs are very much glass cannons compared to monsters, and thus a PC vs. PC battle will be a shameless "rocket tag."

It would be much more prudent and take less effort to simply reskin a preexisting monster for the "warlock" and bring in a second monster as a "summon" during the warlock's first turn.

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I TOLD YOU HE WOULD BE BACK.
>my game is tonight
>still redoing some shit
>trying to make enemies engaging and unique to keep people
>I'm failing, I think :/\/\
>need automatons Eladrin would use to defend their city
>maybe a feywild dragon that could be convinced to keep an eye on it for reasons
>failing
>hate myself
>hate my players for having a month and STILL ASKING ME BASIC CHARGEN QUESTIONS THIS FUCKING MORNING
>AHHHHHHHH!

>>50203544
>>50203621
>>50205874
>>50206272
Oh hey 2hu, did you enjoy your ban?

>>50206650
>PCs are very much glass cannons compared to monsters, and thus a PC vs. PC battle will be a shameless "rocket tag."
Can confirm: I had my group's avenger fight a two-weapon ranger, because I wanted to give them a wuxia inspired sword duel. To first blood, so first one to half-health lost.

It was instead one round of the avenger winning initiative and CRUSHING the ranger.

Then they fought again, with the ranger winning initiative but missing half their attacks and getting smacked down again.

At least the encounter succeeded in giving the PC a follower that has come around to their philosophy, so in that aspect it succeeded. It was just a boring fight.

>>50203544
I'm rather partial to the ridiculous twin-blade avenger build for half-elves

13 str, 11(13) con, 16 dex, 10 int, 16(18) wis, 8 cha. Dilettante: Twin strike, with adept dilettante and versatile master, coupled with two-blade warrior and a couple of bastard swords

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>>50207114

D&D 4e simply does not work that well for dueling. It thrives with battles that pit 4+ PCs against 4+ NPCs/monsters, with all of them constantly moving around and exploiting terrain. This is why battles against single-unit solo monsters are boring short of extraordinary circumstances, and why 4e resolves duels crudely.

>>50207167
Yeah, no fucking shit.

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>>50207137

Twin Strike avengers may have been good back in 2009, but I am not convinced they hold up as well as generic charge-optimized avengers nowadays.

Aiming for Twin Strike as an avenger takes a very heavy race, feat, and item cost, which any other avenger could use to be a "conventionally" optimized githzerai avenger.

>>50207114
We had an epic (level 25ish?) game come to an Inquisitor and a Paladin dueling over their depleted and chained god in what was essentially a battle of the future of the religion.

Story wise is was a huge plot point with lots of weight behind it. After the first few rounds though it was a slog of at-will attacks only kept interesting due to the Paladin looking for a "side" way to win. Kinda deflated what would have otherwise been a really cool and dramatic event.

>>50207167
I'll disagree with big solo monsters being boring. At least, not like in other editions. The beefy dragons with several actions a round and lack of serious "save of lose" type stuff often kept them fun.

4e requires a bit more understanding of the tricks that make it work though I guess. You need to toss more than just a random tough guy at the party.

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>>50207230

What is an "inquisitor" in this context?

Single-unit solo monsters are boring because:

1. They have much less incentive to move around than multiple-unit groups

2. They therefore give the PCs less reason to move around.

3. They can be neutered by finding trivial holes in their defensive traits and exploiting them. Almost all solo monsters, for example, can be neutered by "cannot attack," "cannot take standard actions," or "takes a penalty to attack rolls" powers, and the lattermost of these is relatively common.

4. They fail to vindicate players' investments in multitarget powers and other options; a sorcerer or a monk will hardly be pleased by fighting nothing but a single solo monster.

5. More so than any other type of encounter, they inevitably turn the battle towards spamming at-will attack powers.

>>50207320
>What is an "inquisitor" in this context?
Ugh, Avenger? It's been years since I've played sadly.

Eh, I enjoyed our big fights, but we were never so min-maxed to have the same issues with power problems. Some fights favor some, others favor others.

What are some unorthodox but viable strikers? I wanna play something different but most striker options are leaving me lukewarm.

>>50208121
Seeker, psion, etc.

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>>50208121

Define "unorthodox." Is a level 13 battlemind spamming Brutal Barrage with vulnerabilities and Headsman's Chop "unorthodox" to you? What of a pixie assassin (executioner)|warlock charge-spamming with Eldritch Strike and Streak of Light, or a goliath cleric|ranger with Battle Cleric's Lore and Spiked Chaining serving as an incredibly well-rounded striker/leader with great defenses? How about an assassin (executioner)|blackguard trying to make the most of Virtuous Strike with both sources of striker damage, loading up on non-standard-action encounter and daily attack powers?

What is your starting level? What free feats are you entitled to?

>>50207320
1: Only a stupid monster would do this.

2: Scattering the enemy, chasing each one down, and killing them one by one works better.

3: Depends on the monster, and depends the party makeup.

4: Depends on the monster, and depends on the party makeup.

5: I can't believe I'm actually defending 4e.

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>>50208158

1. Anything you could possibly do to encourage a single-unit solo monster and the PC party facing it to move around could be applied to a group vs. group battle, which would then become even more dynamic.

2. Isolating enemies from the battle to be picked off one-by-one is incredibly difficult to do in D&D 4e, even by the character build that the Player's Handbook 2 calls "isolating avenger." It takes repositioning enemies far away, restricting their movement, and hoping they have no ranged attacks. It is even more inconvenient against a 4e PC party given the existence of defenders.

3. Almost all solo monsters are highly vulnerable to "cannot attack," "cannot take standard actions," or "takes a penalty to attack rolls" powers, and the lattermost of these is relatively common.

4. "Single-unit" solo monsters imply the absence of other monsters, which means that, yes, multitarget powers have the "multitarget" part rendered moot.

>>50208158
>> spouts anti-4e memes.
Get off this general.

>>50208156
Level five, and no free feats, the dm is a bit of a hard ass about that stuff.c as far as what unorthodox is, I don't know. Just something different from rangers/rogues/etc. A melee based caster could be neat or something.

>>50208121
Pyromancer Wizard, Elemental Empowerment Wizard, Charging Fighter, Brutal Barrage Battlemind, Radiant Invoker, Thunderous Invoker, and I think there was an amusing striker-build for Swordmages but I can't remember what it was

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>>50208424

You could consider a bozak draconian "rebreather" Dragon Magic sorcerer for a powerful melee implement-user. Take Infernal Prince as your theme and Unarmored Agility, Ancient Soul, and Nusemnee's Atonement as your feats, gearing up to select Hurl Breath at level 6. It is hardly overpowered at the heroic tier given no free feats, and it is very much a fragile "glass cannon" build. A level 5 "rebreather" will require prickly positioning up close to trigger Nusemnee's Atonement and Ancient Soul, but if conditions are ideal, the payoff will be multiple uses of Dragon Breath in a single turn. Positioning is easier at level 6 with Hurl Breath.

You could also consider a halfling Iron Soul monk. It is an amazingly well-rounded, hard-hitting (against multiple enemies too!), enemy-locking-down, durable striker/controller/defender. Take Unarmored Agility, Melee Training (Dexterity), and Versatile Expertise as your feats. Use the rare item selling trick to start with a Goblin Totem Dagger +2 (2,600 gp), a Siberys Shard of the Mage +1 (680 gp), a Ki Club +1 (680 gp), and an Amulet of Protection +1 (360 gp), leaving you with 160 gp. Tear into groups of enemies with Five Storms and Eternal Mountain, and knock single enemies prone with the suplex-like Dragon's Tail.

A pixie Desert Wind monk with similar feats and items could also work, though you will want to take Blistering Flourish instead of Dragon's Tail to supercharge the damage of your Desert Wind Flurry of Blows.

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>>50208501

>Pyromancer Wizard
>Radiant Invoker
>Thunderous Invoker
All three of these are decent controllers, but hardly noteworthy as "strikers," especially at mid-heroic.

>Elemental Empowerment Wizard
A good choice. Although it gets overtaken by actual strikers and dedicated control wizards by paragon, it is certainly strong in the heroic tier.

>Charging Fighter
You mean a bugbear fighter (slayer) with a gouge, charging optimization, and Martial Cross-Training (Rain of Blows).

>Brutal Barrage Battlemind
Obviously, this applies only at level 13. A battlemind is painful to play as a defender from levels 5-6, given its weak melee basic attacks with post-errata Melee Training, its shabby mark punishment that requires enemies to hit, and its lack of Lightning Rush.

>I think there was an amusing striker-build for Swordmages
This is usually a swordmage|warlock, certainly a good hybrid combination by high heroic or early paragon depending on your access to curse-spreaders, but I am afraid it suffers from too great a minor action economy a crisis at low and mid-heroic for it to be a strong option.

>>50208424
I like strikers hybriding with Paladin or Fighter to get some extra off-turn attacks/damage going.

You can do this with just about anything. Also, the pseudo-defender Vigilante Justice style rogue discussed a few threads ago is pretty amusing for this reason.

>>50208669
You can build a weaponmaster fighter as a striker by focusing on their numerous charging powers combined with their excellent charging support

It's a bit like a slayer, but does less DPR and more nova damage, and can also be a semi-decent secondary defender

>2hu is back

Welp. Here go the generals. Have fun with your charop.

Say for the sake of argument you'd like to fix the Assassin class into something decent. What would it take to make it comparable to other strikers while retaining the feel of it?

>>50208969
I really like the gameplay of amassing shrouds to unleash them in one shot.

Maybe set him up with a stronger secondary theme that he can do before going in for the kill. Such as having strong controller riders against shrouded targets.

>>50208969
1. Give it a decent fucking amount of HP, Wizard HP is simply not sufficient for a melee class
2. Buff the damage of shrouds, up-front is better than a backlog for damage, so you need to make the backlog suitably powerful
3. Give it a feat or feature to help it bypass necrotic resistance, necrotic resistance is everywhere and assassins do a lot of necrotic damage
4. Fuckit, just play a rogue

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>>50208706

Out of the hybrid defenders, the paladin (cavalier) is perhaps the strongest one for any character with high Charisma to take up. It comes with a full-powered Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance, it can have a 1/encounter leader heal from Spirit of Sacrifice, and plate and heavy shield proficiency are just a Hybrid Talent feat away. Valorous Smite at level 1 and Call of Challenge at level 2 make good power choices.

I am not quite as sold on the hybrid fighter, however. A hybrid ranger or hybrid rogue does not gain *that* much from the fighter side even considering the possibility of taking Hybrid Talent (Tempest Technique). It certainly does not stack up to a hybrid cleric|ranger with Battle Cleric's Lore, though that is a high bar to beat.

>>50208800

I am going to have to say "no" to this one. A fighter (weaponmaster) can be an excellent defender/secondary striker, especially at the paragon tier, when they can be a Son of Mercy with the Marked Scourge feat.

Tossing that aside in favor of charging optimization wastes the fighter's potential. It is not going to stack up to a charge-optimized avenger, fighter (slayer), or ranger (scout), and what nova potential it does have is outshone by a fighter (slayer) with the Martial Cross-Training (Rain of Blows) feat.

Never mind that the Hewing Charge feat locks you into a Strength/Constitution build with terrible defenses, whereas an avenger, a fighter (slayer), or a ranger (scout) would have equal if not better AC on top of good Reflex.

>>50208969

The original Dragon Magazine assassin is a lost cause, and the Essentials assassin (executioner) is slightly more salvageable but still quite mediocre the moment level 5 or so arrives. I would improve the shroud mechanic of the former and make it less frail, while the latter could use less situational at-will powers and a better Assassin's Strike power and poison progression.

>>50209051

Why do you hate fun? Charging fighters are fun, no one else gets as many charge powers, or interesting ones like boulder charge, and just going "well, they're really fun and interesting, but they're not quite as good as a boring fucking ranger so just ignore them" is basically saying that you hate the game.

You'll never match a ranger with a charging fighter, hell, you'll never match a single-target-focused stone fist monk, but you can be a sufficient striker because being "sufficient" as a striker in 4e is stupid easy

>>50209051
Why is battle cleric lore so much better than tempest technique fighter hybrid? I mean, the better armor and shield AC is nice, but wouldn't the tempest technique bonuses to attack/damage be more worthwhile for the ranger?

>>50209092
>Why do you hate fun?
Literal autism.

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>>50206898

>>50207167

I just replace the PC's health with that of an Elite (Worth two normal monsters? Been a while).

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>>50209092

There just is not that much mechanical incentive to play a Strength/Constitution-based Hewing Charge fighter (weaponmaster) over a similarly charge-optimized avenger, fighter (slayer), or ranger (scout). Perhaps even an assassin (executioner)|warlock, a warlock (hexblade), or a rogue (thief), all of which can be optimized for charging too.

4e has *many* charging builds available, and the Hewing Charge fighter is on the lower end of that totem pole.

>>50209134

Taking Hybrid Talent (Tempest Technique) puts you down a feat, and you still have to take Armor Proficiency (Chainmail). You are down two feats compared to a cleric|ranger, and you still have 2 less AC and lack that 1/encounter leader heal.

That said, I may have misjudged; at the heroic tier, a two-weapon fighter|ranger with a Spiked Chain Training is probably on par with a regular ranger, but by paragon, having no access to Called Shot and Prime Punisher might hurt. (Even a cleric|ranger suffers from this, of course.)

>>50209227
But literally none of those other options can use boulder charge

They either don't have dailies, or don't have strength

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>>50209318

Boulder Charge comes only at level 15, and it is not even *especially* strong a daily power for its level.

That said, I will concede that the Essentials chargers grow relatively worse with each passing level (save for the level 11 renaissance of Deft Blade/Impaling Spear), due to the usual issues of poor level-scaling for most Essentials classes.

Of course, by level 15, a Hewing Charge fighter will be suffering from major frailty issues with low Reflex and low Will.

>>50209227
The problem with prime punisher melee rangers is that they need to engage enemies alone, which sets them back a fair bit due to being unable to focus-fire with the rest of the party

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>>50209590

That has always been my main issue with them, but the payoff is undeniably huge: +1 attack from Prime Punisher and +5 damage from Called Shot. In the best case scenario, a ranger either finishes off an enemy entirely on their own with a multiattack nova, or softens up that enemy enough for the rest of the party to take down.

For a game starting at the paragon tier, a plain ranger perhaps has the most potential amongst two-weapon ranger builds. For a game starting at low heroic, you will certainly enjoy the perks of a cleric|ranger with Battle Cleric's Lore and Spiked Chain Training more.

>>50208969
MC or even Hybrid Executioners can be fun. You get access to assassin feats.

Warlock//Executioner
+Mindbite Scorn + Killing Curse = 5D8 bonud damage on a Basic Attack

I need a level 1 and 2 feat for a Half-elf Valorous Bard, stat. Ignore all Expertise feats and static +1/2/3 feats, they are automatic.
2hu, do NOT tell me to "take X at will from X class and take X feat to support it", I am not asking that yet.

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>>50210247

The assassin (executioner)|warlock is a well-known build, and it can be improved as a pixie with Streak of Light and other components of rapier charge optimization: a Vanguard Weapon, a Badge of the Berserker, a Horned Helm, Boots of Adept Charging, Light Blade Expertise, Surprising Charge, and so on.

Alas, half of your encounter and daily attack powers will be of minimal use to you.

>>50210301

I would suggest Bard of All Trades to transform yourself into a solid skill monkey, and Mark of Healing to help your allies shrug off (save ends) effects.

I would recommend taking Dilettante only for a half-elf starting at high heroic or at the paragon tier outright. Before level 11, Knack for Success is a *much* stronger and more versatile racial encounter power, and it can even help with skill checks out of combat.

Remember to invest in a Bardic Songblade and, if your GM allows it, a Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield +1.

>>50210301
improved majestic word or mark of healing never ever hurt.

>>50210301
If dragonmarks are on the table, battlesong expertise combined with mark of storm is ridiculously awesome.

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>>50210301
>>50210358

Ah, yes, if your GM does not give you free Melee Training, you should definitely take Melee Training (Charisma) before Mark of Healing. That way, you can charge and make opportunity attacks.

If you have a free Expertise feat, Battle Song Expertise is the best of the lot for you. It should help with both Staggering Note and Shout of Triumph.

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>>50210387

Bear in mind that if you will be taking both Mark of Storm and Battle Song Expertise, you will also need a Lightning Weapon, which can be rather expensive. You will also have to take Arcane Implement Proficiency to use implement powers well, unless you forgo a light shield (and potentially a Rhythm Blade Spiked Shield +1).

Melee warlock that is not a hexblade. Is it viable, or should I give up on the concept?

>>50210422
It is viable, extremely so with hybrids.

>>50210417
Bards do have many thunder powers, most notably the at-will staggering note.

>>50210441
Is it viable to do so as a human? I know Half elf has a much easier time of it, but i'm looking to play a human this camapign. What are the best hybrid or class options for a melee lock?

>>50210465
Cavalier, Paladin, Fighter, Executioner (see:>>50210247) would be my immediate picks.

>>50210465
Also, humans make viable-very good everything, just maybe not the best.

>>50210486
I guess i'll tinker around with Warlock|paladin or warlock|fighter then. Fighter seems a bit trickier since i'd need to dip into strength heavily, right?

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>>50210454

Yes, but not enough to rely solely on native lightning and thunder keywords. Mark of Storm is more geared towards those who will be dealing lightning or thunder damage with *every* attack.

>>50210422

As far as pure-classed warlocks are concerned, a melee warlock probably will not be as good as a ranged warlock. Depriving yourself of the many rock-solid ranged attack options from the warlock list will be a shame, and Shadow Walk works best when you can keep your distance and move.

>>50210441

The classic swordmage|warlock is a solid hybrid combination... by high heroic or low paragon, when it can solve its minor action economy crisis with curse-spreaders.

>>50210465
>>50210486

Human swordmage|warlocks have the upside of being able to take Eldritch Strike alongside Sword Burst and either Hellish Rebuke or Eyebite, and the downside of being unable to have 18/18s in both attack scores. It is certainly viable, though as mentioned above, the swordmage|warlock struggles with a minor action economy crisis until high heroic or low paragon, depending on your build and your items.

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>>50210486
>>50210524

Moving away from the swordmage|warlock, I really do not see anything in the fighter|warlock's favor. There is minimal synergy to it.

The assassin (executioner)|warlock is a classic build laid out in >>50210247 and >>50210358.

The paladin (cavalier)|warlock is a top choice for the reasons mentioned in >>50209051.

Thus, between all of these options, I would definitely recommend either an assassin (executioner)|warlock or a paladin (cavalier)|warlock.

What is your starting level, and what free feats are you entitled to?

>>50210558
7th level, but no free feats. I'd prefer to focus on a more offensive/striker hybrid melee lock but i'm not sure how effective such would be.

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>>50210571

As a human assassin (executioner)|warlock, you will be a one-trick pony focused squarely on murdering opponents using Eldritch Strike, preferably while charging.

A human paladin (cavalier)|warlock will have more variety to their tactics, sometimes stopping to defend the party with Valorous Smite and Call of Challenge, but for the most part, your modus operandi will still be to kill opponents outright with Eldritch Strike and all your other warlock powers.

Remember to be a Sorcerer-King Pact warlock for the Mindbite Scorn feat, and to take the Killing Curse feat, giving you +2d8 curse damage.

>>50209042
Could a secondary defender work with adjusting the Bleak Disciple feature? I've thought about making them pump out THP like crazy through a few adjustments with feature and feats, and making Night Stalker the controller sub path.

>>50209045
Warlord HP work fine you think? I thought to have the shroud do d8 damage to start, with a d10 improvement feat option. Maybe I should mix Assassin's Strikes natural damage buff instead, and have the Shrouds increase the damage by an additional for each one applied, and something special for removing them based on class feature?

>>50209051
I'm trying to not make it a lost cause. I don't really care if I have to rewrite it from the ground up with major adjustments and mishmashing features of the two classes. Is the poison worth it?

>>50210687
>Could a secondary defender work with adjusting the Bleak Disciple feature?

That was my other idea, yeah. You still need something do draw fire with, but an at-will power that does slow+no shift should work for that (maybe tinker with executioner's noose?).

Another interesting thing would be to focus on staying hidden while using your secondary role, but that kinda moves into rogue territory. Then again, perma hidden rogue is usually an assassin hybrid.

>>50206533
>you really should not be a hybrid warlock (binder) since its control powers pale in comparison to those of other hybrid controllers
But...invisibility!

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>>50210571
>>50210595

I had drafted up a sample level 7 human assassin (executioner)|warlock. This character's playstyle is simple: charge-spam with Eldritch Strike. You will want to expend Assassin's Strike at the first opportunity, and to activate Delban's Deadly Attention and Touch of Command whenever opportune. Occasionally, you will be buffing yourself encounter-long using your assassin poison and/or Emerald Shield. It is hardly a complicated build or playstyle.

If anyone has a better suggestion for a feat than Resourceful Leader, please recommend it.

Level: 7
Race: Human
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Class: Assassin (executioner)|warlock
Defense Bonuses: +1 Fortitude and +1 Will
Guild Attacks (Hybrid): Red Scales
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid): Sorcerer-King Pact
Theme: Your choice, but I would recommend Elemental Initiate, Ghost of the Past, Guardian, Harper Agent, or Ironwrought
Background Benefit: Auspicious Birth or Born Under a Bad Sign

Ability Scores (Level 1, pre-racial): Strength 8, Constitution 12, Dexterity 16, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Charisma 16
Ability Scores (Level 4, pre-racial): Strength 8, Constitution 12, Dexterity 17, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Charisma 17
Place your human +2 in Dexterity for more AC and initiative, or Charisma for more attack and damage with warlock powers; you can use either Dexterity or Charisma for Eldritch Strike due to Attack Finesse anyway.

Feats: War Wizard's Expertise (human), Mindbite Scorn, Killing Curse, Arcane Implement Proficiency; the last feat does not matter too much here, but I would suggest Resourceful Leader for an extra trained skill and a way to help your allies

Trained Skills: Perception, then three (four with a multiclass) other skills; no need to take Athletics given Ghost of the Rooftops

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>>50210966

At-Will Attack Powers: Eldritch Strike, Quick Lunge, Poisoned Dagger
Encounter Attack Powers: Assassin's Strike (Hybrid, assassin 1), Delban's Deadly Attention (warlock 3), Touch of Command (warlock 7)
Daily Attack Powers: Either Bloodroot Poison or Carrion Crawler Brain Juice (assassin poison 1), Emerald Shield (warlock 5)
Utility Powers: Either Ethereal Stride or Shadow Blend (warlock 2), Ghost of the Rooftops (assassin 6)

Items, assuming starting with an Ioun's Revelation +1 is not allowed: Vanguard Longsword or Rapier +2 (level 8), level 7 rare item sold for 2,600 gp, Horned Helm +1d6 (level 6), Summoned Leather +2 (1,800 gp), Rhythm Blade Dagger or Wrist Razors +1 (680 gp), Badge of the Berserker +1 (520 gp), Boots of Adept Charging (520 gp), Bracers of Mighty Striking +2 (520 gp), 360 gp remaining, free mundane adventuring gear as per page 143 of the Dungeon Master's Guide

Charging attack bonus:
3 half level
+4 ability modifier
+1 feat
+2 enhancement
+3 proficiency
+1 charging
Total: +14 vs. AC, average AC of level 7 monster is 7 + 14 = 21

Damage with charge and Warlock's Curse:
1d8 longsword or rapier
+4 ability modifier
+2 enhancement
+2 item from Bracers of Mighty Striking
+3d8 Warlock's Curse with Mindbite Scorn and Killing Curse
+1d8 Attack Finesse
+1d8 Vanguard Weapon
+1d6 Horned Helm
Total: 6d8+1d6+8 (average 38.5)

>>50210892

Do explain.

>>50210951
Feat ideas: Hybrid talent for prime shot? Cursed Shadow for shadow walk?

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Is it worth spending money on Iron Armbands of Power as a Swordmage, since about half my attacks are non-melee implement?

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>>50211478
Probably not worth it if you can buy other items.

>>50211522
Nice taste bruv

In that case I might get a Weapon of Summer. Scaling bonus to damage of both melee and implement along with a new keyword to have fun with sounds like it'd do me better, even if the damage bonus is less than IAoP until epic.

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I've been allowed to play as a Goblin Storm Sorcerer that is a thin veil for Midna. Are there any hints for playing as Storm Sorcerers?

Everything is allowed except for Eberron Dragonmarks, which he doesn't allow as he's anally butthurt about people mixmaxing with them.

>>50212138
Too bad, mark of the Storm is really good for storm sorcerors.

Grab dual implements, some light blade feats, ankle biter, you should be set.

Have you guys seen this? In an old Oprah episode this mother of a child molester says that one of the signs she noticed was him liking D&D. It's around 29 mins in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KSwO98qqe8

>>50211100
>Do explain.
Star pact binders have hidden lore - when you drop an enemy to 0 or an adjacent enemy drops to 0 you get invisibility until EoNT. Seems a useful tool for invisibility related shenanigans

Any ideas how this could be gamed?

http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Reapers-Touch.html

I feel like there's bound to be some build you could base on this, but haven't found anything yet.

>>50213533
It lets you use any of those on a charge. Apply normal charge build cheese from there.

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>>50199774
Hey guys. This may be the wrong place to ask, but where is the -4 STR meme from? I know it's DnD but that's it. Google gives me nothing.

Thanks in Advance.

>>50213533
Doesn't seem very effective. Even if you'd use it to gish a Warlock or Sorcerer, Eldritch Strike and Sorcerer Blade Channeling sort of obsolete it. Not sure on the Invoker power though.

When a power says it effects an ally, does that include yourself? Do you count as your own ally?

>>50214687
No

>>50213960

Its not from DnD actually. FATAL

>>50213533
Good for shadar kai revenants, not so good for shadar kai

Although that also depends on how you read sorcerous blade channeling, does it turn an RBA into an MBA?

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>>50211108

Come to think of it, I would replace Resourceful Leader with Hybrid Talent (Shadow Walk) outright. If you will be constantly charging anyway, you may as well gain some concealment out of it.

>>50211478
>>50211588

I would suggest a Radiant Weapon with a Siberys Shard of Radiance instead, as radiant is the premier damage type of D&D 4e.

>>50212138

What is your starting level?

I would favor staff implements over daggers, because staffs are vastly more supported.

Wield an Accurate Goblin Totem Quarterstaff (or an Accurate Staff of Ruin) and outfit it with a Siberys Shard of the Mage. Take Staff Expertise, Unarmored Agility, Ankle Biter, Superior Implement Training (Accurate Staff), Staff Fighting, and Dual Implement Spellcaster for feats; this should significantly improve your accuracy and damage.

You will probably want to take non-lightning/thunder powers anyway, such as Blazing Starfall for a radiant damage area burst at-will, and Flame Spiral for a multitarget multiattack each encounter.

>>50212596

That seems too unreliable to build around. The warlock (binder) is perhaps even worse a controller than a seeker.

>>50213533
>>50214133

I am unfamiliar with builds that try to optimize Reaper's Touch specifically; you could build a charger that uses any one of the associated at-will powers, but it would probably be worse than a more conventionally optimized weapon-based charger.

Staff Expertise makes it unnecessary for implement-users to have backup melee/close powers. Reaper's Touch's array of at-will attacks is mediocre too.

>>50215699

Acid Orb and Dragonfrost say "ranged basic attack" specifically, not just "basic attack." Sorcerous Blade Channeling turns a ranged attack into a melee attack, but the Special line of those two powers is unchanged, meaning the powers remain unusable as melee basic attacks.

Staff Expertise already obsoletes Sorcerous Blade Channeling.

>>50216435
staff expertise doesn't obselete sorcerous blade channeling if you're playing a goblin, halfling or pixie, because a goblin totem dagger is essentially just a cheaper staff of ruin for them

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>>50216435
>>50216502

I will concede this on a certain point: I had forgotten that Small/Tiny-sized characters cannot actually use magic quarterstaffs due to them being two-handed. Ergo, while a Goblin Totem Quarterstaff could exist, a Small/Tiny character could not use it. Likewise, the Staff Fighting feat is unusable by Small/Tiny characters.

With this in mind, I would revise my recommendations for feats and items down to two routes:

A. Staff Expertise, Accurate Staff of Ruin with Siberys Shard of the Mage, Dual Implement Spellcaster with a plain Magic Staff or Magic Dagger in the off-hand. Slightly more expensive, far more defensively capable when stuck adjacent to an enemy.

B. War Wizard's Expertise, Goblin Totem Dagger with a Siberys Shard of the Mage, Dual Implement Spellcaster with a plain Magic Staff or Magic Dagger in the off-hand. Slightly less expensive, less risk of hitting allies caught in your bursts and blasts.

I would personally favor A, because the defensive benefit from Staff Expertise removes the main downside of ranged/area attacks, and because even with War Wizard's Expertise, you will want to avoid targeting allies anyway.

>>50216922
I thought implement staffs can be used as quarterstaffs, but quarterstaffs can not be used as implement staffs unless you're a monk

After all, the staff implement description says it "can also function as a magic quarterstaff" but the description for quarterstaffs have no such line regarding staff implements, which implies that it only works one way, which means that you couldn't use a goblin totem staff at all, because they don't exist, only goblin totem quarterstaffs exist

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>>50217004

Sorcerers' implement proficiencies are as follows:
>Implements: Daggers, staffs

>Implements
>Sorcerers wield daggers and staffs to channel their wild arcane power. When you wield a magic dagger or a magic staff, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of sorcerer powers and sorcerer paragon path powers that have the implement keyword. Without an implement, you can still use these powers.
>Any dagger can function as a sorcerer implement. However, you don’t gain a dagger’s proficiency bonus when using the dagger as an implement.

Quarterstaffs belong to the "staff" weapon group, which means there are staffs. A magic quarterstaff is a magic staff, and sorcerers can use staffs for implements.

Blame Wizards of the Coast for having two discrete game elements with the same name.

For all it is worth, the online Character Builder supports a sorcerer using a magic quarterstaff with a weapon enchantment as an implement.

>>50216435

Starting level is 1, but the GM says levels will be gained faster than normal. How much faster I really didn't get a chance to ask.

Thanks for the advice, helps at least with some weapon choices.

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>>50217711

Do bear in mind my concession here regarding feat and weapon choices: >>50216922

Are you entitled to any free feats?

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>>50216922
>>50217808

Also, if your GM allows it, you could consider a Rhythm Blade Dagger as your off-hand weapon for Dual Implement Spellcaster, giving you a +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex.

That said, if you are starting at level 1, Dual Implement Spellcaster will be a ways away. You could wield a Rhythm Blade Dagger in your off-hand anyway just for the shield bonus.

>>50217808

AFAIK its a pretty RAW game. From what I know we're getting the following house rules:

- The usual feat taxes as free feats (For sorcerer I assume it'll be the standard weapon and implement expertise and that jazz).

- Magical items don't have +1, +2, etc... but rather automatically level up with the player. Didn't specify when, but I assume at 5, 10, 15, etc... No mentions on their rarity aside from "They won't be a complete pain in the ass to find."

Also FYI I have no idea what the player composition is as of yet. One player is flipping between nearly every single Controller ever known as he's indecesive as hell, the other has a raging hardon for Dwarves so it'd be Dwarven *something*, and the last guy hasn't played 4e in years so he wants to read some stuff before deciding.

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>>50218062

In that case, here is a sample build you could work towards as you progress from levels 1 to 4. I recommend the staff feat and item setup over the dagger setup because War Wizard's Expertise is of less use to a Storm Magic sorcerer who can already exclude certain squares from area bursts.

This is a simple build whose tactics amount to "blast away." Since you do not actually have that many lightning or thunder powers, do not be afraid to drop your lightning and thunder resistance to negate an attack against you.

Level: 4
Race: Goblin
Class: Sorcerer
Spell Source: Storm Magic
Theme: Your choice, but I would recommend Noble Adept solely for the 1 power point and Adept's Insight, which can transform a failed roll into a success, in or out of combat
Background Benefit: Silent Hunter

Ability Scores (Level 1): Strength 8, Constitution 12, Dexterity 16+2, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Charisma 16+2
Ability Scores (Level 4): Strength 8, Constitution 12, Dexterity 17+2, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 12, Charisma 17+2

Feats:
Bonus: Staff Expertise
Level 1: Unarmored Agility
Level 2: Superior Implement Training (Accurate Staff)
Level 4: Ankle Biter, or a multiclass feat of your choice, potentially Resourceful Leader

Trained Skills: Arcana, Bluff, Perception, Stealth, potentially Diplomacy with Resourceful Leader

At-Will Attack Powers: Blazing Starfall; Acid Orb, Dragonfrost, or Lightning Strike
Encounter Attack Powers: Explosive Pyre or Whirlwind (1), Flame Spiral (3), and remember that Flame Spiral's 1d6 applies all static damage bonuses
Daily Attack Powers: Howling Tempest (1)
Utility Powers: Dragonflame Mantle (2), and remember that it can cancel an attack that hits your defense exactly and that, as an arcane power, it receives your Spell Source damage bonus

>>50213533
Can bladesingers get wizard dailies somehow? I was thinking combining it with http://funin.space/compendium/power/Wizards-Fury.html to get minor action MBAs until the end of encounter.

>>50218233
Also, http://funin.space/compendium/theme/Blackstaff-Apprentice.html

Could also net you a minor action attack.

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>>50218233
>>50218261

I am unaware of any method for gaining a wizard daily attack power as a wizard (bladesinger).

Using Magic Missile as a melee basic attack will not be particularly effective as a bladesinger anyway, because your bladespells require a hit.

>>50218537
Well, I totally forgot about that.

Maybe useful in some barb | sorc hybrid builds then, if shadar-kai didn't kinda suck for that.

>>50219243
Go revenant if revenant hasn't been banned

Which, from personal experience, often is

So sad to see that i cant play the classic tsr bladesinger from the novels.

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>>50219922
I share your misery. Have a Sad Elf.

>>50219922
What are they like? What's missing?

>>50220044
They were fuckawesome honourable gish. Plus, the crazy High Magic stuff in the old elf canon meshed seamlessly wuth them.

Well, my oneshot went to shit.
More then half the group weren't ready to play, and 2 players didn't even have their character sheets filled out.
Then spent an hour doing that, only to find out that both of them:
Fucked up feats (I wrote down they receive pre-errata melee training and an expertise feat of their choice for free, they chose whatever feats they wanted)
Fucked up their skills (they apparently didn't realize being Trained in a skill gave you +5, one thought it was like 3.5 where being trained means you can roll it at all, and told the other this)
Refused nearly all the advice I had to give them (hey avenger, I'm giving you the option gith blademaster feat even tho you aren't a gith because it's really good for you, ignores it and takes up a longsword to my utter disbelief because of "eladrin synergy". Bladesinger, you ought to take your extra human at will from the wizard list to expand on your options, you need some range because you have none at all, takes everything from the bladespell list)
Didn't even provide the things I asked for (everyone gets 3 magic items of their choice somewhere in the course of the adventure, they give me nothing and I tell them once there it is too late to make a list)
And to top it all off, they only got to the 2nd room of 18 planned. Hell, the actual part of the dungeoncrawl didn't even begin because the party got caught up in a setpiece battle that they were supposed to deal with via other means rather than swinging swords at it (I was trying to show them how the skills could be used in a robust fashion, naw, we are gonna swing our swords at it flailingly even when we are failing to accomplish to anything).
I had 3 good players, 1 mediocre player, and 2 players who actively brought it down, and one of the good players pulled me aside afterwards absolutely incensed, as he felt his time was wasted because some people couldn't get their shit together in a reasonable amount of time.
Ugh.

>>50220166
>Fucked up their skills (they apparently didn't realize being Trained in a skill gave you +5, one thought it was like 3.5 where being trained means you can roll it at all, and told the other this)
It's nice of you to DM for them, but illiterates have a hard time playing RPGs.

>>50220473
Not illiterate, just lazy.
When asked why, after be given a month to read phb1 and make a character, they still didn't, the response was "I didn't have time!", over and over.
I told the group flatly that if you can not make time to do your part for the game I am making time to create, then you are not welcome after this.

>>50219932
>Misreading emotions.

Autism confirmed.

>>50220166
Reading stories like this scares the shit out of me, because I want to try and run a game.
How do you deal with players like this?

>>50220166
>>50221441
>How do you deal with players like this?
Have a pre game sit down during the first week before the official start of a campaign. Explain everything being house ruled in detail, answer questions, and cover expectations. Try to hash out generation and other such lists during that day so everyone is always on the same page as to who's doing what and why.

A game like 4e works best with group tactics, so the group should work together in an active manner. Ability choices, power selections, and all other manner of goods fit best for a good group dynamic that takes these things into account. Optimized or not, actively picking choices that would end up undermining someone else's options tends to suck for all party members involved. Best way to avoid it is to have a sit down and make the party plan themselves out together instead of individually. Gives the GM one week of extra prep time to take into account the party's selections too.

>>50221591

This.

Often I make sure to stat up sheets for an entire sessions just to make sure people not statting doesn't happen.

As for people taking dumb powers, this isn't unique to 4e. Players will always grab what seems cool to them, even if its a fucking awful choice.

>>50221591
>>50223123
Probably couldn't even get them together to do that much.
Frustrating as fuck.

>>50220166
>hey avenger, I'm giving you the option gith blademaster feat even tho you aren't a gith because it's really good for you, ignores it and takes up a longsword to my utter disbelief because of "eladrin synergy".
I probably would've done that too. Longswords are more eladrin flavored and getting feats I don't qualify for makes me feel like a cheater. Longswords are a perfectly average weapon anyway; not like he was trying to play an avenger with a handaxe

Is there any way to make a pull and grab build using a whip or the like? As an at-will option. I know Fighter has some flail related grab powers, but I'd really love to be able to pull an enemy into melee and grab them in one action.

bum

>>50225725
Grappling strike fighter? You can get the grab at least

>>50227449
This looks like it was drawn by the dude who did keychain of creation

>>50225725
Sadly, whips have next to no support, thanks to an errata changing their type from "flail" to the entirely unsupported "whip" (iirc, I may be wrong on this).

You are much better off using a spiked chain and treating it like a whip, as it does get flail support, and so can be used to drag people in.

If you are set on using the whip, you have your work cut out for you, though Whip Expert is pretty sweet.

>>50227975
>>50227975
A goliath brawler fighter with the stoneblessed PP can do it

Maybe, I don't know how grappling strike would work when your unarmed reach is 2

>>50231083
Shit, I didn't know about whips becoming their own weapon type.

>>50231240
Grappling strike is melee touch range, so I guess it could work for grabbing at range. But as far as I know it wouldn't be able to sustain the grab unless it's adjacent.

>>50232238
Follow-up question: Could
>http://funin.space/compendium/item/Flail-of-Winds.html
combined with the increased Stoneblessed path let me using Luring Strike to slide an enemy from 2 squares away?

Because that's good enough for me.

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>>50232274
Footwork Lure, not Luring Strike. I am dumb.

>>50232274
Yes

>>50232281
still yes

So are you set on whips?

In case you are, this isn't very useful for you, but if you aren't >http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Chainbinder.html

HOLY SHIT THAT LEVEL 12 UTILITY

>>50231083
The CBLoader still has whips as flails. Seeing as how it's been correct over the funin.space compendium before, I would trust that ruling

>>50232682
It goes both ways, but in that case, go with it, it really makes no sense to have whips alone as 'whips', even if it makes them really, really good.

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>>50225725

Take a Brawling Style fighter. You should ideally be a bugbear or a thri-kreen in hide armor, or a human in scale armor.

Take the Flail Expertise, Mark of Storm, Dragging Flail, Pin Down, and Improved Defenses feats in that order.

Wield an alhulak. Ensure that the weapon is a Lightning Weapon, and it should ideally be upgraded with an Eberron Shard of Lightning.

All of your melee weapon attacks now knock the target prone and slide them 1 square. For example, if you have a hand free and you are using Grappling Strike or Serpent's Coil, you can knock the target prone, slide them 1 square, and then grab them. While they are grabbed, they cannot stand from prone until they break the grab.

Bear in mind that this is an extremely feat-intensive build that will only vindicate itself by mid-heroic.

If you are completely set on attacking a target 2 squares away so that you can slide them adjacent to you, you will have to be a goliath of the Stoneblessed paragon path at level 11+ (your level 16 feature will be a complete waste), or a minotaur of the Beastblooded Minotaur paragon path at level 16+.

Either way, since you will be using a Lightning Weapon, you will fare very poorly against lightning resistance (e.g. all demons and their variable resistance).

>>50233846
>Wield an alhulak. Ensure that the weapon is a Lightning Weapon, and it should ideally be upgraded with an Eberron Shard of Lightning.
>Either way, since you will be using a Lightning Weapon, you will fare very poorly against lightning resistance (e.g. all demons and their variable resistance).
This has literally nothing to do with what I want my character to do.

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>>50233876

A Lightning Weapon with Mark of Storm, Flail Expertise, and Dragging Flail is the single most accessible option for ensuring that all of your melee weapon attacks knock prone and slide 1.

That is simply how 4e's metagame has shaped up.

>>50233907
That also assumes I have access to Mark of Storm.

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>>50233951

If you cannot take Mark of Storm, then your only other options for attaching a slide, a pull, or a "knock prone" to a grabbing at-will attack is to be a human with the Foamgather Heritage and Foamgather Warrior feats, opening up the Net Snare feat.

I could be wrong here, however. Do any other options present themselves?

Moving on from above, what would a player who went Eladrin Avenger with a longsword need to stay on the ball?
>he, against all my urging, did not pick up unarmored agility, and has 15 ac
>the creatures they are running into have +7/8/9 to hit, from the minions to the heavies
>Why don't players heed the advice of the DM? Why do players think the DM exists to lie to them?

>>50234059
Bcuz players are used to the Dm hates you mentality of 1e/osr.

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>>50234059

I would have prioritized Power of Skill over Unarmored Agility myself.

Here is a homebrew feat I had devised that caters to eladrin under Wisdom primary classes:

Spiral Tower Inquisitor
Prerequisites: Eladrin
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to Wisdom-based attack rolls, Wisdom-based damage rolls, Wisdom-based skill checks, and Wisdom checks. While you have a hand free and you are using a longsword as part of a Wisdom-based attack roll, when resolving the power, the longsword's damage is improved to 1d12, the longsword gains the high crit property, and you gain a +2 feat bonus to the power's damage rolls. This bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level.

Does anyone know of a way to get the old WoTC 4e character builder?

>>50234325
>I would have prioritized Power of Skill over Unarmored Agility myself
He follows Erathis, Power of Skill doesn't apply, and I gave the entire group pre-errata Melee Training for free, so Power of Skill becomes less auto-feat tax.
>that feat
That's pretty damn far, anon, it combines almost 4 feats into a single package.

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>>50234444

>That's pretty damn far, anon, it combines almost 4 feats into a single package.

Is it any worse than a githzerai avenger taking Githzerai Blade Master?

>>50234514
Yes, by FAR.
>You gain proficiency with all military heavy blades, as well as the bastard sword and the fullblade.
Military weapons are already covered in most melee classes, unless you are trying to notGish, the real bonus is the fullblade, because the bastard sword is a schizoid weapon.
>Additionally, you gain a +2 feat bonus to damage rolls with these weapons. This bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level.
The same as the above.
Then tack on bonus to attack rolls (expertise feat), damage rolls (focus feat), skill checks (skill feat/bard class feature), wisdom checks at base, treats a military weapon as a superior one (gith blademaster), grants high crit (paragon/epic tier feature), scaling damage bonus (gith blademaster).
This is one of those feats that goes way to far to make what is a flavor choice top level optimal. If this was allowed, the player would be a fucking fool to not take it, because it blows every feat he could take at Heroic out of the water, full stop.
It's a new Leadership feat, no thank you, anon, but I do appreciate your time.

>>50234584
I think you are going too heavy here. Leadership literally broke the game. This is just an ideal feat you'd be stupid not to take (like Expertise or unarmored defense). What it does is turn a longsword into a fullblade + scaling bonus (putting it on equal footing with gith blademaster), and give +1 to attack to make up for the wis deficit.

Not saying I don't agree with you, it probably does too much for a single feat. It probably doesn't need to make up for the wis; your player knew that he'd be less precise when he took Eladrin. But if your player doesn't have a plan in mind that makes use of eladrin's unique advantages, I think it is not unfair.

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>>50234584

A Githzerai Blade Master wielding a fullblade is using a 1d12 damage weapon with high crit. They enjoy a +2/+3/+4 feat bonus to damage rolls. Assuming a starting Wisdom of 16+2, they have +4 to attack rolls, damage rolls, and primary skill checks from their ability modifier.

With this homebrew feat, an eladrin avenger wielding a longsword with a hand free is using a 1d12 damage weapon with high crit. They enjoy a +2/+3/+4 bonus to damage rolls. Assuming a starting Wisdom of 16, they have a total of +4 to attack rolls, damage rolls, and primary skill checks from their ability modifier and this homebrew feat.

I fail to see the difference.

>>50234584
>Expecting homebrew from an optimizer not to be broken as shit.

>>50233907
What his character wants to do however, is use a whip.

>Do any other options present themselves?

Probably not until paragon, but I'll spend some time looking into it.

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>>50234444

>>50234660
It's not broken as shit, unless you consider githzerai avengers broken as shit.

>>50234669
I hate you.
>>50234681
No, I consider it unneeded because you are trying to make an option that is fluffy and has a lot of racial support the equal of top level optimizing. It's the same problem 2hu has, no, not everything needs to be high level optimizing, especially in a sensible, actual game.
>>50234658
So why couldn't the eladrin just drop an 18 in wis, take weapon proficiency/expertise/focus, call it a day?
Auto-take feats are just as bad as feat taxes.

>>50234658
the difference is the source. gith have inherent wis bonnus, eladrin do not. the feat is providing more than a feat normally should, even if it's only to put the PC on par with a more optimized race choice

>>50234775
>Auto-take feats are just as bad as feat taxes.

They are literally the same thing. If you HAVE to take a feat, it's a tax.

Also, being shitty is worse than either (not saying eladrin avengers are, mind you)

>So why couldn't the eladrin just drop an 18 in wis
By the same token, the gith then could have had 20 in it.

But yeah, this is why I said that the wis-fix is probably too much. However, avengers really do need the high crit. If nothing else, add that to the eladrin soldier feat.

>>50234892
>not saying eladrin avengers are, mind you
That seems to be the overwhelming opinion if they need so much "fixing".

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>>50234775

>So why couldn't the eladrin just drop an 18 in wis
Then the avenger could not have a pre-racial array of 16, 16, 12, 12, 10, 8.

>Auto-take feats are just as bad as feat taxes.
The competition here is a githzerai with Githzerai Blade Master, which is very much an auto-take feat for any githzerai avenger or cleric (templar).

>>50234793

I do not see anything wrong with homebrewing feats to make certain race/class combinations immediately compete with top-notch race/class combinations.

There is already precedent for this in official material, and precedent that actually goes too far in solidifying a single race's dominance, such as half-orc paladins and their Blessed Strength racial feat.

>>50234924
>half-orc paladins and their Blessed Strength racial feat
Yes, but Blessed Strength makes up for the fact that without it, their job as defenders, already difficult for the paladin, would become nearly unattainable. That is making a race that most do not make CHA strong still viable.
The above feat implies that Eladrin Avengers are not viable, and actually subpar enough that they must be elevated to a top tier optimized race.
As usual, we disagree on the necessity of optimizing. Even then, I asked for advice to give to my player on how to further along his idea of an Eladrin Avenger of Erathis from before the fall of Nerath, and I get homebrew and optimizing arguments that don't actually help me at all.
2hu, if you can't offer the assistance I asked for, I respectfully ask you to exit this conversation, as you are not adding to it, only contributing to derailing it massively.

>>50234924
There's no competition unless there's a gith avenger in the same party.

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>>50234998

In your post in >>50234059, you had asked, "what would a player who went Eladrin Avenger with a longsword need to stay on the ball?"

I had given a homebrew suggestion, seeing how you were open enough to homebrew in >>50220166 to give an eladrin avenger Githzerai Blade Master as a bonus feat. Presumably, your player turned this down due to insisting on using a longsword, which is why I came up with a more longsword-centric version of Githzerai Blademaster to be selected with an actual feat slot.

I fail to see how this is an invalid suggestion, while handing out a powerful racial feat (of a different race) for free is not.

>>50235059
Because the feat offers more than I am willing to give him, and I am thinking long term, such as ways to capitalize on his race/class combination, paragon paths, et al.
A homebrew feat has been proffered, and rejected. I have little issue with eliminating tax feats, but I made a houserule offer, and the player did not want it. I am not going to put a larger honeypot under his nose because the last one wasn't big enough, it will be an insult.
Do you have anything else?

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>>50235110

Your player insists on a suboptimal race choice with a mediocre weapon, said player is refusing free feats to help solve the problem, and you, the GM, are turning down homebrew options that likewise aim to fix the issue.

I do not think there is anything to be done if both you and the player are willingly declining any patches to the problem. At best, you could be extremely generous with magic items towards the eladrin avenger.

>>50235157
Your homebrew options are predicated on bad faith and the rejection that a character is more than the mechanical choices.
I leave this conversation, farewell and good day.

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>>50235187
>the rejection that a character is more than the mechanical choices.
What else were you expecting from 2hu?

>>50235187
You are asking for mechanical fixes and then bitch about how the one you get is mechanical? If you don't care about the mechanics, what is there to fix?

Fact of the matter is, for an avenger to work as intended, it needs a high crit, preferably high damage dice weapon. Nothing the eladrin race has built in makes up for that. You'll probably need to put in some magical longsword+ that is essentially a fullblade. On top of that, however, I'm not sure what you could do to synergise the race with the class. Possibly open up eladrin charge to Avengers?

>>50235225
He seems totally capable of doing fluff here >>50205955

>>50235375
Yeah it's just that some retarded people hold the completely indefensible view that caring about mechanics and optimization puzzles, is somehow diametrically opposed to caring about fluff.

>>50235317
>Anon asks for ways for the character to capitalize on being an eladrin.
>Gets a homebrew feat that basically makes the character a githzerai with a different sword.
I can see why he has a problem with it. Dude probably expected suggestions on teleportation related shenanigans with feats and magic items.

>>50235485
Multiclass fighter and grab eladrin charge. But the avenger probably doesn't have the STR for battle awerness so...

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>>50235838

Fey Charge is a paragon feat, and it requires heavy investments to make the most of.

What would you do to make ruthless ruffians not strictly inferior to brutal scoundrel rogues?

>>50237993
Make them able to use all flails/maces/hammers instead of their shitty weapons.

>>50238023
And possibly add the whip to that.

>>50234924
I see your point, but the feat still comes of as very atypical and bundles a lot of mechanical changes into one choice. For example why not just make it apply to avenger class and paragon path powers like other avenger feats instead of the weird wis based thing?

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>>50237993

The Brutal Scoundrel is already superior to all other rogue types, because the other builds all have inherent problems:

Artful Dodger: You still want to avoid opportunity attacks *anyway* when fighting Monster Manual 3-math monsters, and many rogue powers grant shifting to facilitate exactly this.

Cunning Sneak: Dexterity/Intelligence.

Ruthless Ruffian: Clubs and maces are awful weapons, and locking yourself into rattling powers means eschewing many of the better rogue powers.

As well, top-notch powers such as Sneak in the Attack (utility 2) and Bloodbath (daily 5) simply work better in the hands of a Brutal Scoundrel due to increased Sneak Attack damage.

I would not know how to fix any of these off-hand.

>>50238206

To support eladrin clerics as well.

>>50234059
Okay, what's the party like?

What censure is he?

>>50238340
Disheartening ambush in paragon means you're not forced to always select rattling powers, as do executioner's mien and hounding assault in heroic. You lose a die of SA damage from Disheartening, but potentially make it up with +str damage and an added debuff. Seem like it would outperform brutal scoundrel's bonus if applied to multiattacks, but rogues don't have any. I toyed around with making a paragon multiclass ranger with it, but there's nothing to help the shitty accuracy/weak mace support.
>>50238023
Flails may be more compatible with rogues. Would there be any way for a rogue to get an at-will slide? Maybe through fighting style feats?

>>50238585
>Would there be any way for a rogue to get an at-will slide? Maybe through fighting style feats?

Duelist's flurry.

Would be real good if it worked with a whip.

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>>50238585

>Disheartening ambush in paragon means you're not forced to always select rattling powers
A paragon feat and +1d8 Sneak Attack damage is not a small price.

>executioner's mien
Neither is a level 10 utility that is redundant with your natively rattling powers, and that competes with the much more useful Acrobat's Escape and Counter-Step.

>Hounding Assault
Nor is a level 1 daily power competing with Press the Advantage.

The opportunity cost here is high.

>Would there be any way for a rogue to get an at-will slide?

Duelist's Flurry could work, but it requires a light blade (not an issue if this hypothetical fix to Ruthless Ruffian lifts this restriction, of course). Also, its damage is rather shabby, and I am not entirely sure adding Sneak Attack will cause it to be eligible for static damage bonuses. Is there official clarification on this matter?

A Lightning Weapon and Mark of Storm would also work, if those can be taken.

>>50238671
>duelist's flurry
Hmm, no damage roll so ruffian's bonus won't be added. Would be perfect for flail ruffians otherwise. Could slap on flail expertise and make it proning.
Come to think of it could you do that without any homebrew with spiked chain training?

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>>50238846

A Spiked Chain Training rogue is still better off as a Brutal Scoundrel who multiclasses into fighter for Dragging Flail.

>>50238956
Isn't that mutually exclusive? Since spiked chain training is a multiclass feat.

>>50238808
>I am not entirely sure adding Sneak Attack will cause it to be eligible for static damage bonuses. Is there official clarification on this matter?
Well sneak attack counts as part of the power's damage roll when it comes to maximizing crit damage, so it should count for static bonuses as well come to think of it
>>50238956
Indeed, just wondering on spiked chain's compatibility with rogue

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>>50239015

Yes. Yes, that had slipped my mind.

In that case, you cannot have both Spiked Chain Training and Dragging Flail as a Ruthless Ruffian either, short of a fighter|rogue hybrid or the Traveler's Harlequin paragon path.

>>50239060
You could still take advantage of duelists flurry as either brutal scoundrel or ruthless ruffian

>>50238956
>>50239060
I was never too clear on how flail expertise interacted with dragging flail. Since flail expertise doesn't specify slide distance, does it cancel all slides even the one triggered by it's own proning effect, or is it ruled procedurally?

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>>50239112

And by "take advantage," you mean "drop in favor of better rogue at-will powers like Acrobatic Strike, Piercing Strike, and Riposte Strike."

>>50239183

Flail Expertise requires an initial slide to transform into a proning. This initial slide can come from, say, Mark of Storm.

Dragging Flail triggers once the enemy is knocked prone, creating a second, separate slide.

>>50234059
How?

No seriously, Avengers have an inherent +3 to AC and Eladrin receive a bonus to intelligence and dexterity, there is no reason for him to have 15 or less in his secondary stat

>>50238340
You don't take artful dodger for the bonus it gives off the bat, you take it because there's actually soe pretty darn good power riders that require you to be an artful dodger

Also because it has some fun feats.

Also also, cunning sneaks have barely any reason to actually go dex/int, their feature has no stat requirement and the power riders that use int are hardly necessary powers. They're far better off going dex/wis and picking up the darkstrider PP from the ranger class

>>50242043
It's 2hu. You can't out autism him.

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>>50242043

>you take it because there's actually soe pretty darn good power riders that require you to be an artful dodger

Let us have a look at the top melee rogue encounter attack powers from levels 1 to 27, now:
1: Dazing Strike, Opening Move (Charisma), and Positioning Strike (Charisma)
3 and 7: A mix of Low Slash, Darting Strike, and Startling Offensive
13: Stunning Strike
17: Tumbling Strike
23: Skip this level's powers
27: Perfect Strike

Top melee rogue daily attack powers:
1: Press the Advantage, Spinning Blade Leap
5: Bloodbath (Strength in a way)
9: Knockout
15: Bloody Path, Bold Feint (Charisma), Slaying Strike (Strength), Vicious Cooperation
19: Hilt Slam
25: Visceral Strike
29: Cagey Killer, Deathweaving Strike (Charisma), Kiss of Death

I am not seeing any level wherein Charisma beats out non-Charisma-based options for attack powers.

>Also because it has some fun feats.
Duelist's Panache is a good way to rig physical skill checks in your favor, but it does not make up for the lack of direct offense that an out-of-the-box Brutal Scoundrel offers.

>cunning sneaks have barely any reason to actually go dex/int
You are absolutely correct here, and I concede that. Cunning Sneaks are indeed better off as Dexterity/Wisdom characters entering Darkstrider. They are still worse than Brutal Scoundrels due to having to sink a large amount of resources into hiding reliably. As well, the rogue powers that are most compatible with their hiding playstyle (mostly ranged-oriented powers) are not quite top-notch, meaning they must either settle for those decent-but-not-outstanding powers, or take the top-notch powers anyway and wind up as a third-rate Brutal Scoundrel.

I will say that "permaStealth" Cunning Sneak builds are competitive with Brutal Scoundrels, even if they do take plenty of work.

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>>50242470

>I will say that "permaStealth" Cunning Sneak builds are competitive with Brutal Scoundrels, even if they do take plenty of work.

Then again, I have been doing research on such builds, and it seems that heroic to early paragon "permaStealth" builds are best off as assassin (executioner)|rogue/warlocks, rogue|warlock/assassins, or rogue (thief)/assassin/warlock/Traveler's Harlequins.

I know I am missing something here; what exactly is available to heroic to early paragon, pure-classed Cunning Sneak rogues that makes their "permaStealth" builds more viable than the other builds above? I do not believe it is Persistent Tail or Shadow Stride; their timing for going hidden is not favorable enough.

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What does this thread think of a Wisdom/Constitution-based wood elf cleric|druid (sentinel) as a leader throughout the heroic tier? Such a build has many upsides:

- Freedom to start with Wisdom 18+2.
- Battle Cleric's Lore.
- Perception for initiative.
- Two uses of Healing Word, which can be upgraded with anything that affects Healing Word, including Battle Cleric's Lore itself.
- Excellent druid control powers, such as Magic Stones (at-will 1), Summon Giant Toad (daily 1), Wind Wall (encounter 3), and Charm Beast (encounter 7).
- An animal companion.
- Only three trained skills, but those will probably be Insight, Nature, and Perception under maxed-out Wisdom with a +2 racial bonus to the latter two anyway.

It is no party-enabling Tactical Presence warlord, but it seems like a good way to be a leader/controller with great survivability and initiative.

>>50242470
Compel the Craven gives Bloodbath a run for it's money in the right party, and vaulting charge loses some control against stunning strike, but it's one of the best openers a rogue can get

>>50242708
The permastealth rogue hybrid builds all take cunning sneak as their hybrid talent, so even if they aren't full rogues, they're still cunning sneak rogues

I'm seriously considering making a heavy armor rogue

I think I could do it, it's a stupid, stupid build and is literally useless unless you're starting in paragon, but a cha/str rogue multiclassed into bard for the daring blade PP could forgo dexterity entirely and use all of the power riders that don't depend on a rogue talent

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>>50243331

Compel the Craven does take specific positioning to land more than one attack from an ally (no opportunity actions on your own turn), given that the target avoids "unsafe squares and difficult terrain if it can."

Vaulting Charge is completely outshone by the hard control of Stunning Strike at level 13.

>The permastealth rogue hybrid builds all take cunning sneak as their hybrid talent, so even if they aren't full rogues, they're still cunning sneak rogues

Then we might as well be comparing all builds that happen to be rogues (scoundrel), whether as pure-classed rogues (scoundrel) or as hybrid rogues.

>>50243431

You would want to be a hybrid cleric|rogue or paladin (cavalier)|rogue for this. I do not believe that would preclude you from multiclassing into bard and then entering the Daring Blade; would it?

Alas, I see little mechanical point to such a build even with a paragon-tier start.

>>50243499
The point is that it can run powers with charisma riders off of it's primary stat, making things like swift parry, bold feint, and footpad's friend weapons really strong

Also, you can still go brutal scoundrel, combining brutal scoundrel and footpad's friend on a cha/str rogue gives you the biggest sneak attacks possible.

And fluff-wise, you're a rogue in scale armor who's totally lacking in dexterity, and that's funny

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>>50243590

Footpad's Friends weapons are expensive—Radiant Weapon expensive—and incinerating a multiclass feat and a paragon path just to enable this build are no small opportunity cost either.

Still, I can see what you are doing, and I think it could be worth a try. The following build operates in combat much like a standard Brutal Scoundrel rogue... except as a Strength/Charisma-based Daring Blade, which means stacking Strength modifier, Charisma modifier, Charisma modifier, and Charisma modifier yet again onto Sly Flourish.

Mighty Hew is a good off-turn cleric power, and Word of Vigor triggers Battle Cleric's Lore upon multiple allies.

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>>50244062

Level: 11
Race: Bozak draconian (Dragonfear, Instinctive Flight)
Class: Hybrid cleric|rogue
Theme: Your choice
Background Benefit: Gritty Sergeant
Paragon Path: Daring Blade

Ability Scores (Level 1): Strength 16+2, Dexterity 13, Constitution 11, Intelligence 8, Wisdom 10, Charisma 16+2
Ability Scores (Level 4): Strength 17+2, Dexterity 13, Constitution 11, Intelligence 8, Wisdom 10, Charisma 17+2
Ability Scores (Level 8): Strength 18+2, Dexterity 13, Constitution 11, Intelligence 8, Wisdom 10, Charisma 18+2
Ability Scores (Level 11): Strength 19+2, Dexterity 14, Constitution 12, Intelligence 9, Wisdom 11, Charisma 19+2

Feats, to be adjusted as necessary if no free tax feats are given; remember that Duelist's Panache is less important with Instinctive Flight):
Bonus: Light Blade Expertise
Bonus: Improved Defenses
Level 1: Hybrid Talent (Rogue Tactics [Brutal Scoundrel])
Level 2: Backstabber
Level 4: Cunning Stalker
Level 6: Nimble Blade
Level 8: Weapon Focus (Light Blades)
Level 10: Bardic Dilettante
Level 11: Reserve Maneuver

Trained Skills: Acrobatics, Perception, and four more

At-Will Powers: Righteous Brand (cleric), Sly Flourish (rogue)
Encounter Attack Powers: Mighty Hew (cleric 1), Low Slash (rogue 3), Nimble Strike (rogue 7), Startling Offensive (rogue 7)
Daily Attack Powers: Shield of the Gods or Weapon of Astral Flame (cleric 1), Bloodbath (rogue 5), Knockout (rogue 9)
Utility Powers: Sneak in the Attack (rogue 2), Swift Parry (rogue 6), Word of Vigor (cleric 10)

Items, assuming starting with an Ioun's Revelation +1 is not allowed: Level 12 item sold for 13,000 gp, Imposter's Wyvernscale +3 (level 11), Footpad's Friend Rapier +2 (level 10), Iron Armbands of Power +2 (1,800 gp), Rhythm Blade Dagger or Wrist Razors +1 (680 gp), 15,520 gp left and neck slot item still unpurchased

>>50234325
>Spiral Tower Inquisitor
>Prerequisites: Eladrin
>Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to Wisdom-based attack rolls, Wisdom-based damage rolls, Wisdom-based skill checks, and Wisdom checks. While you have a hand free and you are using a longsword as part of a Wisdom-based attack roll, when resolving the power, the longsword's damage is improved to 1d12, the longsword gains the high crit property, and you gain a +2 feat bonus to the power's damage rolls. This bonus increases to +3 at 11th level and +4 at 21st level.

Wouldn't that feat give an Eladrin Swordmage effectively a Fullblade + the bonus feat damage while still allowing them to get the full +3 AC bonus from being one-handed? Plus a +1 bonus to Perception checks and other, lesser, Wisdom skills? Or an Eladrin Paladin the same plus a heavy shield?

>>50238508
Too bad he apparently fucked off.

Could have been an interesting experiment to build a unity avenger who goes sort of secondary leader (fits the god too).

>>50245424

Forget this I can't read.

>>50238808
>A paragon feat and +1d8 Sneak Attack damage is not a small price.
With ruthless ruffian damage isn't really lost, it's exchanged for a modifier bonus which will exceed the average for the die roll lost, assuming strength is kept high. You even get to apply a -2 attack roll debuff. Unless there's something critically important about the die roll i'm missing, this seems like a good trade

>>50246766
Right, he probably means in the context of "I could just use Brutal Scoundrel instead".

Of course, I think the damage lost is probably still worth the debuff. Especially with the right feats, you can get it situationally up to -4; that's pretty good.

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>>50246766
>>50246818

Even if you were dead-set on taking Disheartening Ambush (as opposed to any other paragon feat that preserves the +1d8 damage), you would still be better off as a Brutal Scoundrel, since being a Ruthless Ruffian locks you into clubs and maces.

How would you make a druid sentinel of spring more useful to the party?
inb4 make a cleric or other class, can't do that.

>>50247600
Multiclass cleric for healing word feats, since apparently it's the same power despite being an entirely different class?

>>50247600
I thought spring sentinels were pretty good...

Can you hybrid?

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>>50247600

What is stopping you from playing a hybrid druid (sentinel)? The hybrid version preserves most of the important class features of the sentinel, and does not have to take that awful Combined Attack class feature, thereby opening it up to excellent druid encounter attack powers like Wind Wall at 3 and Charm Beast at 7.

A cleric|druid (sentinel) is a fine heroic-tier leader, as I propose in >>50243124.

The best you can do as a pure-classed druid (sentinel) is to try to be a half-hearted leader/controller by picking up Magic Stones as an at-will power and good druid daily attacks like Summon Giant Toad at 1.

>>50247675
I was going to try for taking the healing word feat. Thanks mang.

>>50247676
>I thought spring sentinels were pretty good
Oh, in what way?

>>50247676
>>50247728
And yeah, was contemplating hybridizing. How does hybridization work in 4e, dudes?
I took some other powers at part of my combat routine, would it be possible to retrain them?

>>50247774
>And yeah, was contemplating hybridizing. How does hybridization work in 4e, dudes?

As long as you know what you are doing, pretty well, especially for essentials classes that have hybrids.

If you mean the mechanics, you essentially grab two half-classes (in whatever you are using to build your character they are listed as "Hybrid Sentinel" "Hybrid X") and combine them, receiving some powers/features/proficiencies from both.

Hybrid Cleric is one of the most powerful options due to Battle cleric's lore, it hybrids well with basically anything that uses STR/WIS.

As for spring sentinels, IIRC the wolf is actually a pretty nice companion, and you have access to the Magic stone + polearm momentum shenanigans for some very nice at-will control.

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>>50247774

>How does hybridization work in 4e, dudes?

Most classes have a hybrid version that offers a stripped-down set of class features. You choose two hybrid classes and then pick powers from both, with restrictions.

Some hybrid classes are particularly strong due to giving up very little. The hybrid cleric is a good example due to Battle Cleric's Lore, as is the hybrid druid (sentinel) for a leader/controller, and so is the hybrid paladin (cavalier) for a defender/leader.

>>50247822

I would not actually bother with Polearm Momentum as a druid. It takes too high an opportunity cost (a fighter multiclass, Polearm Momentum, an Alfsair Spear, Rushing Cleats), and it will be of little use whenever you are using a power other than Magic Stones, such as Wind Wall or Charm Beast.

At-will optimization is a fool's game for characters who still have many standard action encounter and daily attack powers.

That said, I will concede that it is a little better a deal for pure-classed druids (sentinel) of Spring due to the +1 bonus to attack rolls with spears.

>>50247875
>I would not actually bother with Polearm Momentum as a druid. It takes too high an opportunity cost (a fighter multiclass, Polearm Momentum, an Alfsair Spear, Rushing Cleats), and it will be of little use whenever you are using a power other than Magic Stones, such as Wind Wall or Charm Beast.

I was actually thinking of a build where you'd also go into Polearm Master, grab some sort of marking method (vigilante theme?) and then stand behind your animal companion.

Admittedly, would work best if you could somehow grab beast form for the sliding MBA at-will.

>>50247822
>>50247875
Thanks heaps dudes for the excellent information! Would it be possible to retroactively apply hybridization, otherwise I'm not sure if my friend would allow this. It might actually be safer going the single-classed route, but I'll have to ask him to be sure.

What are good powers to take as a sentinel and can they be retroactively retrained?

>>50247929
Hybrid is an option you take at level 1. It's essentially your class. So if your DM is a stickler for that, he probably won't let you retrain.

What race is your character?

>>50247977
Damn, I probably can't then. Oh well.

Human, we're a mostly human party.


Incidentally, does Improved Initiative stack with Battlewise?

>>50248056
>Incidentally, does Improved Initiative stack with Battlewise?
Yes. Battlewise isn't a feat bonus, it just changes the applied ability score bonus.

What was the healing word feat?

>>50248056
Now I'll need to look into Sentinel getting wild shape somehow; human has some quirky things it could do with that.

>>50248093
Yepp. Not sure if it's worth investing so heavily in initiative boosting, but it does work.

>>50248093
Oh sweet.

My animal companion is there with me just to soak up damage and provide a stumbling block to the enemies?
And it can only move on my turn but can't attack, an attack will just use up my own standard action?

>>50248136
That's how it works. Do keep in mind that it has an opportunity attack you can make it take. That's pretty useful for deterring enemies.

The wolf also has a passive aura that grants advantage, which is pretty nice.

>>50248171
Nice! How do I make it take the opportunity attacks?

Yeah, that is a good addition to everything. It's a passive +2?

>>50247117
I am aware. My goal is to make RR as not shit an option as possible while still vaguely preserving the spirit of the fluff. >>50238023's suggestion of homebrewing in flail compatibility seems like a good idea; it's dex requirements match up with rogue stats and avoids the need to sacrifice weapon mastery in epic.

The accuracy is still shit though. I'm thinking homebrewing in a third weapon talent option for flail/mace/hammer users might solve that. Maybe +2 to related weapon attacks and dishearten ambush's effect built in?

>>50248201
>Yeah, that is a good addition to everything. It's a passive +2?
Yes, and many effects rely on having it. For example, rogues.

>Nice! How do I make it take the opportunity attacks?
The description says that when an enemy would provoke an opportunity attack from the wolf, you take an opportunity action to command the wolf to take the attack (a bit convoluted, but the point is that you don't both get an opportunity/turn).

>>50248116
Sentinel has no way to get wild shape, though they can get beast form through were-themes

>>50248246
That would let them use Beast attacks, right?

The polearm master could actually be a pretty fun build then... aside from having a hard time marking since you give up your theme for the beast form.

Still, the fact that there's an actual method to play a two-beast defender/controller team is pretty awesome.

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>>50247929
>>50248056

What is your current level?

What free feats do you have access to?

You should really check with your GM first on whether or not you can retrain into a hybrid cleric|druid (sentinel) build like the one in >>50243124 first.

Good druid powers for a sentinel include Magic Stones (at-will 1), Summon Giant Toad (daily 1), Wind Wall (encounter 3), and Charm Beast (encounter 7).

>>50248231
Excellent! But it's only 1 square away from me though?

Cool, yeah, figured as much, thanks. 4e is bit too restrictive with animal companions unfortunately but they possibly needed that to reign the druids in a bit.

>>50248246
>>50248116
Think there's the Beastwalker Circle feat that lets an otherwise-unable-to-wild-shape-druid the ability to enter animal form. Dunno how good it is though.

>>50248283
Currently we're only level 3, my feats have all been chosen to date, but we might be levelling up really soon, so I'm all ears.

I've taken tending strike, jolt of lightning, summon park wolf and the seed of healing already, so if it's at all possible to retrain them that would be excellent.

>>50248276
I believe they're locked out of beast form encounters, but still have access to beast form dailies and utilities
>>50248296
>Think there's the Beastwalker Circle feat that lets an otherwise-unable-to-wild-shape-druid the ability to enter animal form.
I think that only works for protectors

>>50248296
>Excellent! But it's only 1 square away from me though?

You mean the aura? 1 square from the companion.

Beastwalker Circle needs you to be a different kind of druid (protector)... or get the summon natural ally power somehow.

>>50248325
>Beastwalker Circle needs you to be a different kind of druid (protector)... or get the summon natural ally power somehow.
... which you can totally do with http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Call-to-the-Wild.html

Well, that's one weird ass build, but it could work.

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>>50248321
>summon park wolf
kek

>>50248283
Sentinels get locked out of the encounter power at level 3 since it's an automatic progression of the combined attack encounter power.

>>50248322
>>50248325
>I think that only works for protectors
> Beastwalker Circle needs you to be a different kind of druid (protector)... or get the summon natural ally power somehow.
Well that's terrible.

>>50248325
>You mean the aura? 1 square from the companion.
Good to know, brah.

>>50248348
I'm totally going for a wolf theme, short of scrabbling about on all fours.

>>50248345
>take feat to swap daily for summon natural ally
>take another feat to get wild shape...and swap back summon ally for a regular daily
Weird indeed. Were-theme might just be easier. Less costly at least

>>50248227
I've only made one Brutal Scoundrel for a one-shot. Good shit.

Warforged Brutal Scoundrel Rogue with Warforged Juggernaut PP, focused my entire build around charging into melee with my big-ass mace and beating some dude over the head with it.

Plus the image of a 400 pound golem charging loudly across the battlefield, braining a dude while shouting "SNEAK ATTACK!" at the top of his lungs was too funny to not do at least once.

Then he was a Wererat for reasons I can't remember, probably so I could throw Claw Gloves to add the d10 damage.

>>50248283
A better daily 1 for spring sentinels is the pack wolf rather toad.

>>50248386
Right, the full build would be one using vigilante theme to go into polearm master. You'd use magic stones to knock 3 enemies on their ass+mark, then control some ridiculous space with yourself and the wolf.

Shit, what's better? Superior Fortitude or Swift Recovery?

Is there any viable striker build that uses a polearm that isn't an eldritch strike build?

I want to do a "spear over the shoulder" combo with a melee warlord, just for the fluff of it

>>50248406
>400 pound golem
>Wererat
Wow, Rattrap got JACKED.

>>50248625
Barbarians can do some pretty sick polearm shit iirc.

>>50248599
Swift recovery. You'll spend many more surges than you'll get hit by ongoing damage

>>50248644
Also, slayers with martial cross training.

>>50248649
Gotcha, well that's a no-brainer then. Randomly, when healing word is used, do my allies heal equal to my healing surges or theirs?

>>50248731
It should be theirs, yeah? Just making sure.

>>50248731
Whenever anyone spends a surge to get back hp, they use their own surge value unless otherwise noted

>>50248778
Thanks brah!

>>50248632
That was basically the inspiration for him actually.

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>>50248355

>Sentinels get locked out of the encounter power at level 3 since it's an automatic progression of the combined attack encounter power.

I am referring to hybrid sentinel selections.

>>50248414

The giant toad still has superior reliability in making attacks; there simply needs to be an enemy within 3 squares of the giant toad, as opposed to an enemy adjacent to the pack wolf.

>>50248406

Warforged and maces are not particularly strong choices for Brutal Scoundrel rogues. Lacking +2 Dexterity and a light blade hurts.

>>50248599

I would say Superior Fortitude, though Improved Defenses or Superior Will would be higher priority. In the era of Monster Manual 3 math, prevention (avoiding attacks) is *much* better than curing, so I wholly disagree with >>50248649.

>>50248649

I think you are forgetting that Superior Fortitude also grants +2/+3/+4 Fortitude.

>>50250352
>Warforged and maces are not particularly strong choices for Brutal Scoundrel rogues. Lacking +2 Dexterity and a light blade hurts.
Wasn't a high-op game(or as much as you can get in 4e), so the difference was negligible at worst.

>>50248406
I'm assuming you meant ruthless ruffian?

>>50250613
Maybe. Been a while since I played 4e.

Which of these books do you think has the best organization for combat and skill rules?

Player's Handbook
Rules Compendium
Gamma World

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>>50250891

The Rules Compendium is the most up-to-date *printed* rules source of D&D 4e, so I would definitely favor that.

>>50248386
Amusingly enough, the way the offline builder handles it you actually get extra dailies...

>>50250352
>I think you are forgetting that Superior Fortitude also grants +2/+3/+4 Fortitude.
Eh, effectively +1 with improved defenses

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>>50252663

You take Improved Defenses if you are a controller, a leader, or a striker who does not have to concern themselves with non-AC defenses.

If you are a defender, or if you are a non-defender who has to concern themselves with non-AC defenses, then you can either take Improved Defenses or gradually piece together the trio of defense feats that you qualify for. For instance, if you are a Strength/Wisdom, Strength/Charisma, Constitution/Wisdom, or Constitution/Charisma defender, then you might seriously consider taking Superior Will, Superior Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes in that order; whether or not this is worth the three feat slots depends on how much feat room your build has to spare.

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Is there a way to use a spear with rogue powers, similar to Tunnel Stalker?
I'm making a polearm momentum monk and wondering if I can get away with going hybrid rogue.
I could go spear mainhand dagger offhand, but I'm really liking the idea of using a shield for hindering shield. Maybe a spiked shield would do the trick?

>>50252952
>Lightning Reflexes
Silly question I know, but would Superior Reflexes be the better choice if I qualify?

>>50252975
What would hybrid rogue offer you as a polearm monk?

>>50253111
Well it's the same bonus plus a bonus effect, so I'd say so. Qualifying would be the hard part

>>50253265


Well, if I could still get sneak attack with spears, only the general stuff it offers any Monk|Rogue. Low slash, snapshot, the fact that monk hardly loses anything in a hybrid so why not?
I'm not going to force it if it doesn't work, of course, but seeing if there's an easy way to make it work since it's generally beneficial to hybrid.

>>50253516
>since it's generally beneficial to hybrid.
That's far from a general rule, especially for striker|strikers. You're generally just losing class features and gaining restrictions without improving your striking ability, since the two halves' striker features can't interact. Perhaps it's not so bad for monk, but still.
Can't get SA with a spear anyway, strangly enough

>>50253841
Oh, sorry for not being clear, I did only mean Monk|Rogue specifically, over pure Monk.

But thanks for the heads up that rogue won't work with this. It's probably more trouble than it's worth.

>>50250352
Unfortunately I won't be able to hybridize but thanks though.

>>50250352
The pack wolf syngerizes best with the wolf though.

>>50254042
It does, but even considering that toad still has the better instinctive attack

>>50254122
Don't really care about that tbqh.

>>50199774
>that guy who asks if the group wants to play D&D, then pulls out an outdated version of the game
This is you, 4eg.

So there was some talk about a hybrid cavalier|warlock earlier, what are the best builds/feats for it? I imagine killing curse/mindbite scorn, but what makes the two synergize fairly well/makes them strong?

>>50254200
4e is still fun though, do you hate fun?

>>50254652
don't reply.

>>50254442
Is hybrid cavalier better than hybrid paladin?
Starfire Womb/Hero's Poise is cool for that combination, I assume cavalier can also get it.

>>50254689
Cavalier can still act as a good defender and you can just use the hybrid feat to get access to plate armor

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>>50254200

>>50254442
>>50254689
Cavalier | Warlock has better minor action economy, since you don't need to mark. In exchange, it's a lot more melee focused.

>>50248599

Superior Fortitude. Defenses are king, and monsters inflict a lot of ongoing damage. I'd choose Toughness before I'd take Swift Recovery, and I don't think I've ever actually taken Toughness on a character I've played.

>>50260961
>monsters inflict a lot of ongoing damage.
In four years of playing 4e I cant think of a time I've been hit with ongoing damage

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>>50261364

According to the Compendium, there are a total of 5,315 published monsters in all of D&D 4e.

Of those, 1,733 contain the word "ongoing" in their monster entries.

3 contain the phrase "ongoing effect" and 2 have the phrase "ongoing effects." Of these five monsters, all but one (the orog militant) deals ongoing damage as well.

This means that 1,732 out of 5,315 monsters (32.587%) involve ongoing damage in some shape or form.

>>50261515
It's still up to the DM to use them.

>>50248227
Don't most good flails have +3 proficiency?

On the former topic of Eladrin Avengers, I've been thinking about it in a way that makes them interesting rather than just "your longsword is a fullblade in disguise".

So I ended up toying with Fey Step, the Arcane power source, and Swordmages. I think I can probably cobble up a Theme, Paragon Path (maybe one for Clerics and Paladins as well) and Epic Destiny that fits the concept. Plus a bunch of feats that should make the Eladrin a Dark Blue or similar for Avengers.