/cofdg/+/wodg/ - Chronicles and World of Darkness General Thread

It's not much.
>News
http://theonyxpath.com/now-available-mage-tradition-and-convention-art-shirts/

>>50180114
>What non-Of Darkness media do you find inspirational?

Dark City (1998) - whilst largely overshadowed by The Matrix, this film captures perfectly the looming shadows, intrinsic paranoia and sense of urban decay of the WoD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD8LUvN_LFY

>>50180114
>What non-Of Darkness media do you find inspirational?

The 6:30 news.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjEQq_6yWKQ

Chronicle of Fagness

>>50180650
Stop being a faggot and asking for it.

Is there any reason to use a weapon that does bashing damage?

>>50180970
Not kill someone? Capture a creature by knocking it out? Not having a deadly weapon on you in case you get possessed?

>>50180797
Stop being a faggot and stop complaining about it.

>>50180970
... Sometimes you might not be in the mood for killing or maiming anyone?

>>50180970
To take the werewolf alive for experimentation.

>>50181005
I think you mean sodomize.

Kind regards, your local Ashwood Abbey member.

>>50181024
use the oversized toys. they regenerate anuses

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>>50180114
>What non-Of Darkness media do you find inspirational?

Sin City is pretty nice in my opinion, for showing off just how corrupted, merciless and disgusting the World of Darkness can be, especially for Vampire the Masquerade games.

...Darn, now I want to make Marv into a character for a session or two.

>>50181024
Roll for Anal Circumference.

>>50181277
Hey man, I ain't rolling for the monsters AC, I'm not the Story teller, aha.

>>50181305
Okay, roll for cock length, circumference and testicle size.

>What non-Of Darkness media do you find inspirational? What fits the tone of the games best, and what kind of book/movie/vidya/show do you wish your games played like ?

The comic-book series Fables. Mostly because I play a lot of Changeling and that I love adapting fairytales and legends into it, but also the surreal feel of it as well as a lot of intregration in the 'real world'.

Even if the scenario can be pretty messy.

Has DaveH mentioned whether Storycrafting is going to be in Changeling the Lost 2e core?

>>50181502
No love for Neil Gaiman? I would have through The Dreaming series was pretty much the go-to for Changeling ideas.

Why the fuck don't Chessex make d10 sets anymore? The only way to get d10 sets out of Chessex is to buy them from a third party that patiently assembles them.

>>50181924
Oh yes Neil Gaiman as well, actually I usually go to Neverwhere before The Dreaming.

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Does anyone think White Wolf went full TSR back in the day with some of their Werewolf:tA supplements?

I'm looking at this "Talon of the Wyrm" they put underneath Tunguska, and this fucker has to be designed solely to exterminate troublesome Rank 5 packs. He has 14 health levels. That pales in comparison to the stats for Shaitan in The Chaos Factor, who, iirc, had instakill amounts of Celerity and was Generation 4, making him effectively unbeatable unless the players called in the entire Sabbat of Mexico City.

>>50181967
I fucking loved that series. Did you know they redid it as a radio play a while back? It included that whole "Mind the Gap" bit that was left out of the original TV show and starred Benedict Cumberbatch as teh Angel Islington, Muad'Dib's kid from Children of Dune as Richard and that Margot lady from Game of Thrones as Door. Fucking top notch.

>>50181933
Go to Diceshoponline, go to die sets, check d10's, check Chessex

>>50182015
Yeees I remember that. I heard it a while ago before I read the book cause my mother used to listen to audiobooks while cooking.

>>50181987

Never forget NWoD vampires in love book, the TSR wood burning kit of the line.

>>50182267
>Never forget NWoD vampires in love book, the TSR wood burning kit of the line.

Wait what?
Requiem got a book about vampire love?

>>50182329

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/97127/Strange-Dead-Love?

>>50181987
WTA was never the most nuance game line

>>50182362
Huh. Wow. Didn't pay much attention to 1e Requiem, that one went straight past me.

>>50182470

We also had the Chronicle guide to werewolf, which has a chapter dedicated to an alternative setting hack of "what if uratha could mate with uratha" with description of what kind of love each auspice is.

By the end, NWoD could hide their magical realmy writing.

>>50182574
Huh. Wasn't that the book with the awesome Sumerian Werewolf-kingdom as well?
Talk about uneven book then.

>>50182574
Can you explain what this "magical realm" thing everyone keeps mentioning is, exactly?

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>>50182802
It's a reference to this comic.
Magical Realm has become shorthand for any inclusion of fetishes or otherwise sexual content in a game.

White Wolf mobile games go live this Christmas / New Years, starting with the Orpheus EVP game.

Are we psyched, or anticipating another Vampire: Redemption?

>>50182941
>White Wolf mobile games
>mobile

>>50182941
I'm seriously worried about those. We don't need to dilute WoD to pander to the lowest common denominator, but that's what's needed to succeed on the mobile games market.

>>50182941

The Orpheus EVP game actually sounds cool, the others seem pretty meh. Also Redemption wasn't that bad of a game, it was just the wrong kind of game and therefore ended up paling in comparison to Bloodlines.

>>50182941
>White Wolf mobile games go live this Christmas / New Years, starting with the Orpheus EVP game.
>Are we psyched, or anticipating another Vampire: Redemption?

i am dreading a dating sim-like WoD mobile videogame.

>>50182941
>Orpheus slot machine
wut

>>50183377

Nah, this one's one of those Earplay projects that OPP's also getting on board with. Apparently the game's premise is that it lets you turn your phone into a radio that can pick up the Shadowlands, and then a Spectre finds the frequency.

>>50183391

Orpheus GO! then?

>>50183408

It's just the one Spectre, and it's all voiced based. So you say things, it reacts, that sort of deal. It's seems like it's going to be more like Lifeline except not real time and with audio.

>>50182470
>>50182329

Written by the one writing V:tR2e right the fuck now for Onyx Path, ohohoho.

How would you design a cofd/wod game where mage are handled as "monsters"?

>>50183726

Hunter the vigil witchsomething

>>50183567
>>50182329
>>50182470
Actually developed by. It was written by the person who's developing Hunter. Also, I don't really see the problem with Strange, Dead Love.

>>50183839

It's actually a pretty boring book, for all the dustup around it. The soap opera style game was the best part, but Monsterhearts does that way better.

At least it wasn't Invite Only, though. Now THAT book was a big ol' pile of nothing.

>>50183839
>I don't really see the problem with Strange, Dead Love

I dont see the problem with trs woodburning kit neither.

It isnt offensive by itself is just unecessary and the point they ran out of ideas but try to grab a few bucks from their fanbase anyway.

>>50183893
>At least it wasn't Invite Only, though. Now THAT book was a big ol' pile of nothing.

Wasnt invite only an adventure?

>>50183932
>>50183839
>>50182329
Strange Dead Love is a much better rulebook than you might think, it has a lot of nifty scenarios and settings involved.

The dynamics surrounding romantic engagements are a pretty staple plot for Vampire and its crunch heavier than say owod clanbooks.

>>50183939

Nope. 72 page sourcebook on Vampire social gatherings. Like Strange, Dead Love, it's not bad, it's just kind of white noise, except this one is even more so.

>>50181987
I don't know what "full TSR" means in either context but WHY do you think either of those is so fucking super amazing?

14 health levels is possible for a starting wraith or risen char, and is itself not exactly amazing.

I don't know who Shaitan is (in this context), and I don't know why huge Celerity is "instakill." The PCs probably have it to. Two normal vamps with Cel 4 easily exceed his action economy.

>>50182574
Not magical realm by a long shot, its totally fucking vanilla and non intrusive.

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I'm building a cowboy for an CoD wild west game. With Haunted Mines, and ghost bandits and shit.

Question Should I still use the drive skill, for horses, and buggy driving? or is that more athletics or handle animal?

>>50183726
If you mean as degenerate vicious antagonists, make it so that they can only gain mana by sacrificing human-tier intelligent beings, consuming souls, etc. Easy.

>>50184000
You might want to replace the Drive skill entirely as that is meant for cars, trains, and planes

>>50183893
I don't really think there was a dust up at all, though.

>>50183932
A game for running romantic one on one stories in the genre that's almost half romantic stories isn't unusual.
Like, half of all urban fantasy is paranormal romance. And most of those feature vampires. Strange, Dead Love makes perfect sense.

A woodburning kit is just a weird kitschy thing.

>>50183949
Yeah. I still need to read it, since a lot of what I've done in the past has been one on one (and romanticish). I mean, my Mage game was basically a dating sim, at least partly.

>>50184000
Drive should be replaced with Ride.

>>50184026

There was a dustup, like there always is with these kinds of books, whether it was people wondering if the book was really necessary when White Wolf was more or less going dark, to people worried about White Wolf being tasteless, even to the few people freaking out about it being some kind of ERP manual (these people quickly shut up).

It just happened to die quickly because it was pretty clear that it was just a normal sourcebook on a niche topic, and then no one really talked about it again.

So. I have this weird idea of making a hunter game. Only it's set in the 1920's, and the players will be hit men working for the mob. Clearing out the weirdo trash that tries to edge into the outfit.

Is this a stupid or cool idea?

>>50184009
>>50184026
Thanks good sires for replying

I would replace drive. but there are Trains in setting, and the core book has horses as a vehicle option. so hence my confusion

>>50184071
Yes, it sounds very cool. Anything Hunter related that isn't just super moralizing HFY preachy shit is always exciting to me, and its very expected that supernaturals will perform criminal activities.

>>50184084
Then maybe Animal Ken is only for rearing and taming horses and Drive is for riding them

>>50184091
Yeah. I also kinda want it to be certain it's not exactly anti-monster. It's just that the players will be the guys with the weirdo experience.
Monsters aren't BAD per se, it's just that anyone who tries to get a piece of the pie without paying for it will get beat down.

Either that, or making a Werewolf chronicle in the same vein. A criminal organisation that at it's core is a werewolf pack.

>>50184062
I really remember nothing of the sort.

>>50184071
Sounds good.

>>50184084
Horses would still be Ride. Trains probably wouldn't be Drive in the first place. Replace Computers with Technology. Running a train is Intelligence+Technology.

>>50184132
You should have them doing business with the supernatural criminal elements, but making sure that they don't get too wise. Look into the Tokyo stuff that's been released so far. The Hototogisu is what you want to be. A Chicago Hototogisu, and you're the enforcers.
Sell fetishes crafted by your voodoun grannies to the werewolves and strong arm the bloodsuckers into paying for your prostitutes.

>>50184295

It's been over five years, but I remember. There was an even tinier one over the romance options in Werewolf Chronicler's Guide, but that too was lost in the bigger discussion of "is selling these books piecemeal a good idea?"

>>50184295
>A Chicago Hototogisu, and you're the enforcers.

Yeah. I was going for Boston, but it doesn't matter much.

>>50183977
"full TSR" means a sourcebook for every single possible thing they could make money from, no matter how dreadfully done or stupid.

>>50184734
In this context that makes no sense though, because he was referring to two sorta tough antagonists.

>>50183726
most of them are pretty monstrous. the Euthantoi are an entire tradition of serial killers.

>>50184776

I don't think most mages are anywhere near that bad, but the Euthanatoi are unusual for going around killing people for being fucking pathetic losers. Although I consider myself a fucking pathetic loser, what offends me is not that they kill people for being losers, but that they justify it based off the logic of "killing doesn't real because you'll just reincarnate."

>>50184881
mages can justify any act, no matter how horrible as long as they get something out of it.

they are like sith versions of john constantine.
A ORPHANAGE IS ON FIRE!!
A. save children by nudging reality enough to have a fire sprinkler system put it all out early
OR
b. HEY LOOK GUYS A COUPON FOR A FREE FROSTY AT WENDY'S!!!

Can someone recommend some of the novels?
I reading Mage the Awakening - fallen world chronicles and after the first two chapters I'm somewhat underwhelmed.

>>50185528
talking specifically WoD novels?

>>50185528

A Hunger Like Fire is good, if you like Vampire the Requiem stuff. Fallen World Anthology is the only Mage the Awakening fiction book available at the moment, I think. There's a Requiem trilogy, a crossover anthology, I WANT to day that a Forsaken novel exists but I can't be sure, and the recent God-Machine, Strix, Idigam, Fallen World, and Firestorm Anthologies, along with Demon: Interface and The Primordial Feast.

Was anyone else super-bummed by Promethean 2e?
Like, it's kinda neat that they added more gameplay shit, like alchemists, more ways to keep the wasteland at bay, and making unfleshed an actual lineage, but World of Darkness has always been about heavy, well written lore and 2e skips out on a ton of lore that 1e established. The myths of the Zeka aren't mentioned, neither are clones, and Pandorans REALLY got the shaft in this one. The mockeries for each individual lineage don't even have NAMES anymore. In 1e they gave an interesting example of a powerful sublimati for each Pandoran mockery, but in 2e they just kind of threw 3 half-assed sublimati idea's out and said 'yeah these guys are kinda scary I guess.'
And don't even get me started on how speshul snowflake the extempore are this time around.
The whole book feels like they retconned way more than they added.
Literally the Pandoran's don't even have NAMES anymore.

I'm doing a bit of work on a Covenant for Requiem, my players have been requesting it since it's pretty tightly incorporated into the current campaign and I realised after six sessions that maybe I should actually do some work on it rather than pretending I've already done it but not letting the players see it. Y'know, regular GM stuff. I've named them 'The Forgotten'.

Rather than being a formalised institution such as Invictus, it's something more akin to the Carthian Movement in that it's more about individuals that share a general belief, but also an affliction. These Kindred have died in ignomity, their deaths unimportant and at best a footnote in an obituary. Some casualty of a war or killed in a feeding gone wrong perhaps. While many rise as Revenants, some are the passing fancy of their Sire and quickly left for dead. Though Revenants are by and large, the norm. The loneliness and despair that many of these Kindred/Revenants feel is a similar melody sung by Ghosts across the world. Ghosts who otherwise cannot fulfill their desires and resolve their lives. These Kindred are a bridge, a medium through which Ghosts can enact their will upon the waking world.

The crux of the matter is that the Forgotten are mediums by RAW, and they leverage their needs vs the desires of Ghosts the world over. Ghosts would innately be drawn towards one of the Forgotten, and the Forgotten is able to barter their services in exchange for powers of the Ghosts. The Forgotten can't tune out the Ghosts, they're always there and always wailing for help.

I wasn't sure whether these guys would work better as a Clan, Bloodline or Covenant by rules, I settled on Covenant for the time being but since I'm at a conceptual stage right now it's all up in the air. Does anyone have any advice/input on this? I'd like to iron out problems at the start if possible.

>>50185716
Clones were stupid, and Mockeries always felt unnecessary to me. I'm happy with almost all the changes, or at the very least lukewarm. Extempore are more interesting, although I think playing one or having on a game would be fucking awful.

It also feels like there's more, not less, of the worldbuilding stuff, especially in regards to Firestorms and the Azoth.

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>>50183726
A lot of the mid tier to high tier operate on a completely different level than mankind. They're like anyone with a little bit of power. They dehumanize the larger masses, for their own petty goals. Power corrupts and all that jazz

Or like>>50184881
>they kill people for being losers, but that they justify it based off the logic of "killing doesn't real because you'll just reincarnate."

They have alien justifications for the alien stuff they do.

It may make sense to cut off the power to electrical grid and stop the technical spirits from taking information. But to everyone else, their power got cut by a fricken madman! Because they don't have the level of sight/delusion they only see the material concrete.

The trick is not how to make then seem dangerous and unstable. The trick is to make sure they have a consistent parallel logic behind them

>>50185696
HLF is pretty good. I lost my copy of it though. sad face. I never read the second or third books are they any good?

Because the first had it's own little complete story arc and plenty of pathos. I felt like the last few pages could have developed a bit more. Like Persephone felt like a weaker character in the narrative and it really wasn't her story no matter what the back flap says. Bruise on the other hand, is SO real. the down and dirty grime, and just the entire slog he goes through. His life is destroyed and he's picking up the pieces. He makes friends that hate him, but are also willing to throw him a bone. Not to mention he's closer to the mystery/ investigation than anyone else. That character made me want to play a Nos again.

>>50185696
Curse of the Blue Nile is pretty fucking great, even if in one chapter the author clearly never read the book when it comes to mummy physiology.

>>50185819
It's cool, but justifying vampires from incredibly different backgrounds and clans all beeing able to communicate with ghosts is tough. It could work as a cross-clan bloodline like some in 1e.

>>50186820
I wasn't aware those were a thing, thanks Anon.

>>50185716
Is there anything keeping Zeka from being played anymore, like any drastic rule changes on that front?

>>50186871
Well, there are no rules for them, so you'd have to make your own. A lot of their tone just doesn't fit.

They'd mostly be best as Extempore.

>>50185819
Like vampire Gesit? That has some creative design space. I mean their is a convent in the DanseMacarbe which is basically vampire changelings.

Play up the forlorn connection to the other side. Vampires Die and then they come back. Who's to say their Minds didn't wander in the intermediary. Like one of those near death experiences only you actually died and then came back to tell the tale.

You can even do a thing about one of their over arcing goals to replace the beast inside a vampire with a ghost/giest. giving them a new balance, instead of the hunger

>>50185819
Something worth remembering is that there's lots of covenants that exist only in regions or specific cities, so if you need to justify some weirder shit you can try to make it tie in directly with something in your city.

Basically use the setting as a lathe to shape society, Mr. GM

>>50186913
Ah ok.

Yeah this shit is why I'm going back to owod. At least there's no risk of your splat being randomly deleted there

>>50186751

Shit, I forgot that one, which is weird cause that one's pretty good. We should be getting that upcoming Mummy novel, too.

>>50186554

I haven't read them but from what I hear the second one is OK but from a different writer, and I don't think I've heard people talk about the third one.

>>50186990

>Yeah this shit is why I'm going back to owod. At least there's no risk of your splat being randomly deleted there

The Ravnos say "hello"!

>>50187039
Ravnos were massacred, they were not mechanically deleted.

>>50186990
Uh... yes there is, and it's not "randomly deleted", it's just "not updated", which happened several times whenever oWoD got a new edition. CofD provides you with the tools to create things as well.

Nevermind that everything from oWoD was technically deleted, and on top of that the mechanics and fluff are bad...

>>50187052

To-may-to, to-mah-to.

>>50186941
That's a very interesting idea Anon. I hadn't even considered it honestly, the replacing the beast aspect. I hadn't thought of Geist either, much as I love that book, I guess it informed the path I went subconsciously.

In relation to my campaign (which is really why I'm doing it, serve the campaign first, be versatile second), the Forgotten are only six decades old. They were formed after the Soviet/Japanese war in Korea in the 40s. The Forgotten now exist to exact vengeance for the fallen and unquiet dead, and they're leveraging the power of spirits with their Kindred prowess to wreak havoc.

I figure, not everyone can just become Forgotten. It's all about where the Kindred is embraced, where they died and why. A Kindred might awaken in a cellar, left for dead in some Shovelhead-esque manner, and the first thing they see is the four dead people who also died in this cellar, and they want to get the maniac that killed them. Maybe you could help?

I really do like the Beast replacing idea though, perhaps some alternate Humanity track? Something where the Kindred is less about fighting off the Beast and more about preserving a sense of self against the onslaught of the Pleas of the unquiet dead?

>>50186985
I hadn't thought of this either, cheers Anon!

>>50187061
>Nevermind that everything from oWoD was technically deleted

I don't see how so at all.

>mechanics and fluff are bad

Some elements of the mechanics are bad, but after examining the mechanics in anydice I don't find them to be as bad as I thought.

>>50187123
The mechanics are bad even beyond the mathematical component.
And I'm talking about how oWoD ended in 2004. And even before that, there were three edition changes that no doubt left much in the dust.

If you want to play oWoD, go for it, but "they didn't update the supplement based character type I liked" is a stupid reason. I've already explained to you how to play one anyway, and it wouldn't be too difficult to make it from scratch.

>>50187178
>The mechanics are bad even beyond the mathematical component.

Er... what else is there?

I haven't really seen much in the way of a mechanical takedown of owod. The main issue is inconsistency -- how many different ways of mechanically handling a split dice pool there are? And that's one of the most important parts.

>but "they didn't update the supplement based character type I liked" is a stupid reason.

Flighty birds throwing everything I like into the trashcan is the perfect reason to choose.

Approximately how powerful is the average adamant sage? Could he face a pack of low-level werewolves by himself?

I was thinking about doing a crossover in my W:tF game.

>>50187212
>Er... what else is there?
The way that the mathematics function together?

Changing target numbers
Four rolls per attack
It's more than just splitting dice pools that are inconsistent.
Hell, a lot of the fluff-crunch interaction is really awkward, or flat out meaningless, like how Gypsies has a power where the first dot does nothing, and Tribebook: Children of Gaia has a Rite that does nothing and is just about yiffing in Glabro.
There's very few guidelines for things like Changeling Bunk or spellcasting in Mage.
Someone who's played more oWoD than I have can probably list off more examples.

>Flighty birds
You seriously can't handle an edition change?

>>50187178
>there were three edition changes that no doubt left much in the dust.

I haven't really kept up on that which is mechanically incompatible; mostly Dark Ages is its own line with weird mechanical differences, Kuei-jin and Wraiths/risen are updated a little, but mechanically there's not much of a problem.

The main guys who ere outright deleted are the non amenti mummies. I don't know anyone who liked them, rmummy is a lot more mechanically robust, and I think that, in-character wise, 2emummies can be transformed into amenti as well.

Mostly, the stuff cut out in owod are things that I am only distantly familiar with and don't really understand what the mechanical issue would be anyway.

>>50187277
>Changing target numbers

How would that not be a math issue?

>four rolls per attack

Often two to three, but point.

>Gypsies

Point

>yiffing

Point

>Mage

I find both owod and nwod mages horrendously overpowered and generally disagreeable.

>You seriously can't handle an edition change?

I don't understand why it is a big deal that one's favorite splats being deleted is the tiebreaker.

>>50187253
According to the 1e Adamantine Arrow book, an Adamant Sage should be at least a second-degree Master.
Which requires a Gnosis of 6.

Good fucking luck.

>>50187375
Though in the second paragraph, it does acknowledge that they can be lesser, and thus be merely a first-degree Master, or hold multiple Adept rank Arcana.

Which would make him a lot more managable.

Still, they're the strategiests of the order. Not the frontline fighters.

>>50187068
Its to-may-to you heathen, unless you're British.

>>50187097
>I hadn't thought of this either, cheers Anon!
I think there's a reason in VtR 2e they made an effort to make every example city have one or more local only covenants, not just the globally reaching ones in the core. A lot of people do! I'm actually really fond of the weird Apollonian-Eastern Orthodox fusion cult in Athens, though it isn't one that will ever make sense in any city outside the classically hellenic world. I'm in a game set in New England, so c'est la vie. Ordo Dracul is fine for me

>>50187294
The argument that things have been "deleted" because they weren't or haven't yet been updated for 2e is silly.

>>50187336
Changing target numbers is a bad mechanic because of how confusing it is to the player. The game is also unaware of when to use shifted target numbers or dice penalty/bonuses.

And whether you like Mages or not, it's an example of poor mechanics.

Your splat is also not being "deleted", and unless it was the *only* splat you liked playing (in which case I can't imagine you ever got to play WoD in the first place, since no one gets to play Promethean, and I can't imagine many groups allowing Zeka), then you'd be abandoning a ton of other stuff you like in favour of an objectively worse playing game. And a subjectively worse setting that can still be played in the better mechanical structure of the new edition. And this is ignoring that I've already explained to you how to play a nuclear Promethean (albeit one that has about as much chance of being allowed as a Zeka would have to begin with).

>>50187420
They also put an entire Clan in Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill that exists nowhere else, or at least not in significant numbers. (Although their Clan Bane is baaaad)

>>50187097
Did you ever look into the Jiangshi?

>>50187491
Aspel go back to playing with dead birds in the backyard.

>>50187491

>Changing target numbers is a bad mechanic because of how confusing it is to the player.

I have never found it confusing, so agree to disagree. I am aware how rabidly insane diff 10 stuff is, however (though I have, 99% of the time, been the one inflicting such horrors on mine enemies, hello Radiate).

>then you'd be abandoning a ton of other stuff you like

I have played two nwod chrons, one as a zeka centimanus, one as a septemi. I have ran many more. Can't really figure out much to like from nwod, but the last tethers have been cut.

>in favour of an objectively worse playing game

You mean subjectively. In which case, yeah, I'm not surprised you'd prefer a game that... you... prefer.

> And this is ignoring that I've already explained to you how to play a nuclear Promethean (albeit one that has about as much chance of being allowed as a Zeka would have to begin with).

I don't care about resorting to homebrew, I can homebrew whatever in any edition, including in new games. The prospect of persuading an ST to accept my special snowflake homebrew lineage is a grim prospect indeed.

>>50187491
>Changing target numbers is a bad mechanic because of how confusing it is to the player. The game is also unaware of when to use shifted target numbers or dice penalty/bonuses

The way i read it was target number for how difficult it was, number of successes required for extended actions and +\- dices is when as dm you want the player to not succeed or succeed.

>>50187642
I don't even remember cases of the ST giving out +/- dices in owod, ever, or thinking that was a thing.

>>50187491
>They also put an entire Clan in Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill that exists nowhere else, or at least not in significant numbers. (Although their Clan Bane is baaaad)
Kindred of the East bros are cool, I kind of hope that the eventual Elders book touches on them at least in a sidebar for 'if you used this thing from the core' bit, given how the text even there mentioned how alien the elders are to other old vampires.

>>50187601
Mechanical consistency is something where there can be an objective better version.

>>50187655
>>50187642
Target number is a bigger factor for success than more dice. But more dice is what you do to increase your competency.

>>50187655

In fact, that was why Greg Stolze made One Roll Engine. When he was working at White Wolf, he asked what the official guidelines were for when to increase/decrease TN and when to increase/decrease dice in the pool.

The answer was "whatever seems like it'd be a good idea". So, Stolze set out to create a dice pool system on two axes: the value of the number and how often the values repeat in the pool.

>>50187714
>Mechanical consistency is something where there can be an objective better version.

There can be, though not in this case. For example on extra actions; there are better and worse takes on it (those that are more punishing on it are mechanically superior).

I am actually somewhat glad *when STing* that owod is fairly mechanical inconsistent. Nwod has some mechanically consistent things that are outrageously terrible; for example, in nwod1e, that you are simply better off shooting armored enemies in the face or eyes, because 1. you don't lose any more dice 2. the damage is still lethal (?I think that was a thing) 3. the ST may award you a special effect (puppy dog eyes and saying "I LITERALLY SHOT HIM IN THE BRAIN!" will probably net you them).

Come to think of it, called shots were not mechanically consistent in nwod at all. I don't think I understand how hard/easy they are in nwod 1e.

>>50187753
And let me put it out there that on the other hand, mechanical inconsistency is not so great for the player usually. But then again, nothing stops the ST from fucking you over if there are rules (the ST once ruled that my Septemi using Awe on a rampaging Pure resulted in a 20 car pile up and it was at that moment that I stopped taking the chron serious).

>>50187420
That's true Anon, I hadn't even thought of it. I'm using the Tokyo setting as laid out in the book and I didn't even consider that the Zaibatsu there are Covenants.
>>50187491
I had a look into them, nothing too extensive though. I'll have a look tomorrow to see if there's anything I missed.

>>50187721
>>50187753
>There can be, though not in this case.
Note that more dice means more chance of rolling a 1.
>for example, in nwod1e, that you are simply better off shooting armored enemies in the face or eyes, because
You mean that shooting people where they aren't armoured is better than shooting them where they are?
>1. you don't lose any more dice
Yes, you do. There are targeting penalties. Hitting someone in the eye is like -5.
>2. the damage is still lethal (?I think that was a thing)
Why would it stop being lethal?
>3. the ST may award you a special effect (puppy dog eyes and saying "I LITERALLY SHOT HIM IN THE BRAIN!" will probably net you them).
A special effect like how shooting someone in the face will generally do more damage than the simple successes, yes. That's not exactly something unique to nWoD. I'm pretty sure if I made a called shot to someone's eye in oWoD and scored five successes or so the ST would at the very least say it did Aggravated damage.

>I don't think I understand how hard/easy they are in nwod 1e.
Yes, that's very clear.
But frankly I don't really want to argue with you about this. If you want to play oWoD, then play it. I just think your reasons are ridiculous.

>>50187774
That has nothing to do with the mechanics, that's solely on the ST being a shit.

>>50186088
The issue to me though is that you have to imagine the book from the perspective of someone who never read 1e before.
Like how some people will play video game: the sequel before playing video game: the original. That's what makes mockeries so important. It explains how the different methods for developing the lineages can produce different sorts of creatures based on the materials that made them. Mockeries are also excellent because they provide foils to the promethean in the artistic way their lineage is represented. Like how the Galateid mockery is completely silent and will jealously murder anyone objectively perceived as beautiful, which is a direct contrast to how Galateid's are very social and love beauty. It makes for much better storytelling than 'well, this monster is pretty spooky and has claws n shit.'

>>50187808
>You mean that shooting people where they aren't armoured is better than shooting them where they are?

I mean that having no mechanical way to have armor contribute to your defense because unless the attacker's player/ST is being nice he will simply shoot you in the eyeballs is pretty atrocious and one nice concrete example of owod having a superior way to handle it (-2 dice does not compare to +2 diff, etc... not that I remember the exact numbers involved).

>Hitting someone in the eye is like -5.

If someone is wearing armor that removes 5 dice to begin with and converts it to bashing (again, can't remember if that's a thing), then you have no reason to not shoot him in the face or eyes (depending on whether he has ballistic face armor, which barely exists RL and usually not at the same protection level), and there's no way to use it to your benefit.

>not exactly something unique to nWoD

It does, however, sink notions of one being super inconsistent. Splat pertinent mechanics are far more consistent in nwod to its credit, but basic shit like armor doing nothing unless the enemy player/ST is purposefully stupid + having to contend with arbitrary ST rulings on each hit does not make it seem that way.

>But frankly I don't really want to argue with you about this.

Yeah, I dont' get why people care which setting is used.

>>50187848
I mean that I literally didn't like Mockeries in the first place and thought it was dumb, so I don't really mind their absence. Most of them felt sort of like an afterthought. I wouldn't hate it if they came back in some 2e form, but I much prefer a vague general kind of Pandoran. But then again I also like that the Lineages themselves have changed so much. Mockeries in general would work better for Sublimati.

>>50187871
Why are you arguing about mechanics that you know worse than I know oWoD's?

Also, no, things happening if you do a called shot isn't inconsistent.

Are there any merits which can help mitigate the effects of blindness, mostly in combat?
Something like a blind fighting combat style or something?

I really want to play a blind Telluric/Oracle Ogre.

>>50187977
>Why are you arguing about mechanics that you know worse than I know oWoD's?

Baselessly insulting someone because you don't like their currently preferred edition isn't going to make you look any better, dude.

>things happening if you do a called shot isn't inconsistent.

Something as basic as a normal attack having effect: ST's Choice every time is probably the maximum level of inconsistency imaginable, and destroys the argument of avoiding owod due to inconsistency. Especially because if the target is armored, there is no penalty to shooting him in the head every time *even if the ST decides there is no special effect from the headshot*.

>>50188078
That's not an insult, it's an honest question. Your knowledge seems to be "(I think)" and "(I forget)". It's mostly wrong.

>>50187212
The only part of Prommie is the fucking Zeka? Fucking why.

>>50185716
>Was anyone else super-bummed by Promethean 2e?
I wouldn't say super-bummed, but I wasn't excited. I liked Vampire, Werewolf and Mage more, Demon brought sort of controversy with God-Machine, Beast was terrible and Promethean... ...Promethean just is. It's lacking both superior quality and drama which would make people interested in it.
Just my $0.02

In today's Forsaken game two of the pack ended up mentally projecting inside a weird interstitial space inside the Gauntlet after a psychotropic rite; they found a small cache of chained-up, weaponised vampires prepped a few years back by Ivory Claws as part of the 'scatter Macau with spiritual and metaphysical landmines' approach to warfare, and the Rahu managed to avoid losing his eye in a bet with a Wounded canidrome spirit by winning the race against the horrible abomination-greyhounds via a single success.

So the players had a thoroughly weird session of inexplicable things happening, but will get to actually find out answers to lots of it next time.

They're also now lined up for an audience with a Shard of Red Wolf, so that should be fun.

>>50188198

>Your knowledge seems to be "(I think)" and "(I forget)". It's mostly wrong.

Such is the price of speaking in generalities about a game whose mechanics change from book to book.

>>50187375
So not a fight the player pack could realistically win. That's actually perfect for my game.

Would it be safe to assume a second degree master would also be highly proficient in other schools of magic?

>>50188299
I was already about an even fan of both nwod and owod, but waiting years for an update only to find out you've been forcibly downgraded does tend to be a good tiebreaker.

>>50188327
but they don't.

>>50188364
>Forcibly downgraded
Holy shit you are really being annoying.

>>50188481
>but they don't.

I don't understand the benefits of lying in an online argument. You have no "name cred" to protect. Why bother?

>>50188490
The mechanics are not changing from book to book.

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Is it possible for Mage cosmology to be wrong?

>>50188364
No no, but why do you love the Zeka, that's what I'm asking here, I'm a different anon.

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>>50188481
>Holy shit you are really being annoying.
Coming from you that's entertaining.

>>50188532
Yes.

>>50188545

Zeka centimani were like a hodge podge of some of the weirdest, and my most favorite, things from owod, like Tzimisce and fomori, without having any requirement at all to be "evil" or edgy or whatever, and in general Saturnine Night (ladies and gentlemen...) was a great book.

Also gave me nostalgia not just for similar stuff from owod, but of post apocalyptic nuclear stuff and being a good justification for something similar to a post apocalypse setting that was itself localized.

My first nwod char was one, I ran a chronicle centering around the wasteland and effects of one, I use "Centimanus" as a handle a lot because of it to this day, and I still chuckle about Pyramid Head's retarded cousin, Rectangle Head, every time I think about Silent Hill.

>>50188532
Its happened before.

>>50188607
>Centimani
>not evil
Did you... read a different book?

>>50188532
whatever ST decides

>>50188677
The books are extremely clear that centimani often behave *purposefully* edgy because they are confused, but their "special ability" is to NOT suffer humanity loss from using pandoran powers, and there are centimani athanors and everything.

They also aren't part of a cosmic force of destruction and corruption or part of a clique that likes to turn human beings into flesh malls.

>>50188532
Old or new? The new mage cosmology changes whenever a sufficiently powerful spirit or archmage feels like it and nobody even remembers the old one.

https://youtu.be/6p1eVLEbOIw

Tangentially relevant.

>>50188545
Different anon than the one you're asking but I also love Zeka.
They're a neat artistic concept for me. Take something that isn't really supposed to be alive and infuse it with living energies to create forbidden life. Now take something that isn't really supposed to be alive and infuse it with destructive energy capable of killing millions.
It's similar to the lich from adventure time.
You just get to BE the fucking final boss.

>>50188532
>Mage Cosmology
Other than that there's another reality called the Supernal Realms, which is reflected in the Supernal World, separated by the Abyss, there's nothing more to Mage cosmology.

Everything else, be it that the Underworld is a fallen reflection of Stygia, that Arcadia is but once place, is mere conjecture with not a shred of evidence as to its truth.

>>50188532
Mage cosmology is mostly a big pile of labels they stick on things that are almost totally useless to get an in-depth understanding from. Despite these labels being useless they form the fulcrum of stupid personal grudges and feuds that can go on for centuries.

>>50188677
The centimani were mostly emo instead of evil in 1e, except for that one who just fucking loved making pandorans.

>>50191247
Everyone likes Zeka, except Aspel because Onyx Path is the soul and center of his identity.

>>50191408
I know a few people that don't like Zeka, I'd have to ask them why in detail though.

>>50191569
Aspel you don't know anyone because you don't go outside and no one on the internet likes you

>>50191628
Oh man, oh man I'm so not fucking Aspel. I've spoken to him personally on other formats sure, but we ain't even fucking friends hommie.

Though the people I'm talking about hate/are disgusted/pitty Aspels sad, sad fake trans being.

I haven't been here in weeks. Did I miss anything?

Why aren't Rio and the DE Companion out yet, god damn.

>>50192020
Zeka got retconned.

>>50192020

Dark Eras is supposed to have shipped out already? I think?

A VtM anthology came out. It's got a Rich Dansky piece in it.

>>50192045

I don't think that's true.

>>50192048

The Companion has been in Art Direction for a while now, and all the stuff I'm super jazzed for is in it, rather than the main book.

>>50192060

Same but I want my book and screen already, gosh darn it.

>>50192060
Tome of Secrets for Dark Ages vampire came out, it's pretty alright.

Also we had a whole thread of cancer due to the you know what.

>>50192098

Anyone got a link to the book?

And that doesn't surprise me. I've pulled back from everything and am distracting myself by buying copious amounts of artwork.

>>50192114
Not that I know of, I'd pass it off to Aspel and have him upload it, but I don't feel like talking to him for awhile.

I could answer any questions though if you want. Well, questions about content/things written.

>>50192167

Could I get a general overview/ToC? Hard to ask for things if I've got no clue where to start. Is there Tzimisce or Setite stuff? Demons?

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So we're playing Vampire: Requium, and our GM has introduced a witches coven. Because reasons, one of our players managed to get himself joined to the cult under threat of being remotely burned alive by a demon at a moments notice, so we're kinda sorta allied with them. So our GM allowed us to gain knowledge of magic from them provided one of us buys the physical book for use at game.

What I want to know is, is this even an avenue worth pursuing? Are vampires even able to learn spells worth using without spending assloads more EXP?

>>50192228
Eh. What kind of magic are we talking about here?
Which book is it the GM wants you to buy?

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>Be a vampire pack
>Charged with tracking and killing a Diablarist
>Manage to track him down to an overpass
>Guy trys talking us down since it's 4 vs 1
>Without having any meaningful investment into stealth or melee weapons, one of us manages to sneak behind him and stake him through the heart with a "Make America Great Again" campaign sign they found by the road

>>50192228

If your Storyteller is smart, whatever form the 'magic' takes will be represented by Cruac, Theban sorcery, or Devotions, all of which are already in the core book.

>>50192228
Magic is Magic is Magic.
That being said, what book are you referencing?

>>50192246
Our GM has little experience with the mage side of WoD himself, or at least new World of Darkness. He might have played the old version a while back since he talks about it so much. My assumption was Mage: Awakening, since that seems the base book.

Right now we're just wanting to ward Elysium from these exact mages, since we're worried the witches will find it, but if any particular spell caught my eye I'd look into it. A quick scan through the PDF makes it look like mage powers work like bloodlines and clans, and my main worry was that us being Vampires would make buying spells more expensive, similar to how Thralls can be humans with vampire powers but they cost twice as much

>>50192281

FYI, crossover between gamelines is usually a pretty bad idea: if your vampires learn the magic from Mage, things will go to shit very, very quickly. Cruac and Theban should have you covered, and the Blood Sorcery supplement is also great. I'd stick to those.

And for the love of god, you'd better be using 2e.

>>50192178
The first chapter with content details various sources of rites and blood magic form certain clans. Abyssal Sorcery, Assamite Sorcery, Kuldonic Rites, Two new (I think 100% new) Necormancy paths and lastly it details 'witchcraft' which includes minor spells, cantrips and is basicly just talking about hedge magic with some touches on 'high' magic.

Second chapter talks about Fiefdoms, vassalage, knight order and medieval warfare.

The third chapter talks about holy and unholy thing, detailing True Faith a bit, example holy relics (Saints bones and hte like) and 'holy necromancy'. The holy part of the chapter also gives you an idea of how to make your own holy/religious order, two examples being a hunter organization and a group of vampires following a dead saint that happens to have been a Nossie.

The other side of the chapter is unholy stuff, ala infernal stuff, details unholy orders and gives us an example order of idiots that use the wyrm and it's banes as part of dark thaumaturgy spells and then another order that summons demons.

Finally there's a appendix that lists some random combination disicplines, a abyssal mysticism spell and a thuamaturgy spell. I guess they didn't know where else to put them.

>>50192281
>Vampires + Mage the Awakening
Oh fuck no.
No, no, no, noooooo.

As >>50192304 says, stick with Cruac and Theban.
Mage shit is stupid experience heavy, and has enough in-setting hangups such that it shouldn't be combined with Vamp.

>>50192315

Is the new Setite and Koldunic stuff neat? I'm guessing there's a new kraina or two. All of those new orders and organizations is definitely what I want out of a book like that.

Holy necromancy?

>>50192281
Jump ship! Jump ship!

Vampires should NOT be able to get it.

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>>50192304
So theoretically, what would be the issue for if we did happen to be using 1e, because the two vampire books seem to have the exact same fucking cover for some reason and I can't check the books to verify

>>50192334
Neither of us have looked into it much, he just presented it as a possibility and neither of us were really sure it was even possible given the rules. I'll pass it along that they shouldn't mix.

>>50192364

2e has the benefit of a decade worth of game design experience behind it, and also doesn't need another rulebook to make characters. Easy way to check is if the book says World of Darkness (1e) or Chronicles of Darkness (2e), or if the character creation section references Virtue/Vice (1e) or Mask/Dirge (2e).

>>50192332
Holy necromancy, or as it calls it 'biblical necromancy' Is more or less necromancy that you're able to do if you posses enough true faith. what they present is more of a example/sample since each tier is a spell with diffrent religous flavours. The spells are, in order of dot, Islamic, Christian, Germanic, Roman/Greek, Egyptian, Roman/Greek and finally christian again. At least I think Lazarus is christian.

Koldunic stuff gets one new Karina, The Bialowieza Kraina with 5 dots and then about 15 rites of various Krainas or Koldunic paths.

Settite sorcery details 3 paths, 2 that have 5 dots of 'disciplines' and a third one that's just a growing in power version of it self over 5 dots. The third one basically has the Setite stealing a persons willpower, road/path, self-control or instinct, Demeanor and finally nature. All in that order of dots you purchased in it, along with stealing a point of temp willpower no matter what you target. It's fluffed as being how they make people reject their gods to turn to Set or whatever god they're pushing.

>>50192364
>Neither of us have looked into it much, he just presented it as a possibility and neither of us were really sure it was even possible given the rules. I'll pass it along that they shouldn't mix.

Yes. They shouldn't. Hell, if you play 1e, then not even Mages should use the Awakening rules.
They are insanely abusable.

>>50192364
Real talk just stick to Thebean/Cruac spells or use the... Blood magic or whatever supplement that allows for semi-freeform blood magic.

>>50192464
Looking at the 2e PDF I can say we are using first edition, so that kinda sucks.

Anywhere you would suggest we get the actual mages stuff from? Given your objections we'll steer clear of it for our characters but I want to point my GM in the right direction in case we have to fight them

>>50192489

Just reflavor stuff already in the book; they can use Cruac or even Disciplines like Nightmare and Protean and you're free to flavor it however you like.

And do try to get everyone on 2e, it's a massive improvement across the board.

>>50180114
I very much enjoyed playing VTMB. If I want to learn about the general history of vampirism, which books should I read?

>>50192551
So I read through one of the paths of Setite sorcery, Akhu as they call it, and it's more or less a weakish form of necromancy. It allows the Setite to see ghosts, see a ghosts great/terrible deeds which they use to make minions. 3-5 are just upgrades of the minion from a mindless servant to a, and I quote, "Proto-Bane Mummy"

>>50192489
If you want vampire magic, get the book Blasphemies and Sacraments. It is a book dedicated to blood magic.

It is a 1e book, but it is compatible with 2e as well.

>>50191646
>fake trans

What...?

>>50192690
>Proto-Bane Mummy

!!!
TIME TO JERK OFF

>>50192891
NO YOU FOOL, NOT OVER MUMMY!

But really should I even try to read mummy? I own the book but... I mean. You know.

>>50192905

I own it too.

Depends. Do you enjoy starting with 1/1 (FUEL_STAT) and having to go back to the fucking middle east every time you try to do anything to recharge?

>>50192941
That... I mean, it's a game about a Egyptian hero, so I guess that makes sense? Fuck whatever I'll flip through it, already fucking spent shekels on it.

>>50192941
>>50192905
But seriously, its alright.

Anyway we have legitimately no idea how Mummy like, or Fomori-like, the resulting creation will be, even though it is described as a Proto Bane Mummy.

I sincerely hope it will at least allow the option of using Powers & Hekau though.

>>50192952
Yeah it's really not to clear what those mummies can do, I'm thinking of asking The Gentlemen Gamer about that. Like for example, it says for each success the mummy can be used for an additional night, then it mentions that the mummies are permanently active and wont decompose... Only to THEN say that if a mummy uses it's blood pool it instantly turns to a pile of ash.

Like I think I'm just being retarded because I'm reading this at 5 am, but fuck man.

>>50192951
Mummies are actually really powerful and awesome, but they have the most absolutely horrible "level one syndrome" of any white wolf splat ever.

They are afterall unkillable demigods with built in True Faith Arete, for whom the power to destroy a small town is a mere level 3 power and have perhaps the most delicious item creation abilities in the game, but ffffffffffuck if an amenti becomes powerful they have earned it, they have earned it.

I guess omages also have an absolutely abhorrent level one syndrome, except that an arete 1 (why) mage does have 6 "detection" tier spheres he can use in unlimited amounts.

>>50192060
It's actually somewhat legit.
Even in Promethean 1e, the Zeka were mentioned as myths, so the writers had an idea for what they were.
In 2e they don't even get a passing mention at all. If the writers planned on keeping them around at all, even for a supplement book, they would have at least got something. A rumor, a myth, a hint, anything.

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>>50192255
>running oWoD n modern nights
How did your storyteller get around gehenna?

>>50193587
I too am curious. It EXPLICITLY STATES that the guy in >>50192255 had his clan diablerized to the last man on p.24 of Gehenna, how the fuck is he still (un)alive?

>>50191628
>>50191408
Have I even said I don't like Zeka?
I mean, I feel like they could have been implemented better, but it's also pretty clear that a lot of the way Lineages in 2e work is due to how the Zeka worked. Of course, I would have preferred Extempore that worked more like some of the strange single-Lineage Prometheans, like the one with Vitae as a Humour.

>>50193008
That doesn't really jive. I'm also not sure they were in the 1e core, but I don't want to go check.

>>50192167
Who are you and why?

>>50192228
>>50192281
No, that's a bad idea. The book you should be looking at is Blasphemies and Sacraments. You can use that for vampire magic, or you can use it for NPC wizzards.
>>50192364
One of them says "second edition".

>>50194017
They are referred to as a legend in 1e core, but once they've been confirmed to have been real I'm not surprised that they're no longer mentioned as a legend.

>>50194017
>>50192281
If I were to use mages and vampires together, I would probably adapt Sacraments and Blasphemies to work more like mage magic in terms of casting, extended casting, and number of spells that can be in effect at once. Because as is:

1. They can stockpile nearly unlimited successes
2. They can hang unlimited spells at once.
3. In VtR2e, each roll requires an hour, meaning that if you DON'T abuse the "hang unlimited spells" rule, you can't use your spells during any normal session at all.

Im'n new to the whole role-playing business.Can someone tell me the essential differences between VtM and VtR?
And your opinions too

>>50194170
VtM is old world of darkness and as far as I can tell, the difference between old and new is that old has a timeline and metaplot whereas new world of darkness is a rulebook, societies and vague descriptions of the world at large to give it a timeless play setting
That said the lack of a metaplot is super shitty in my opinion in addition to the central rolling mechanic being changed because it makes a distinctive game and setting bland and boring being sold not on good mechanics or good story but the success of the original gamelines because lets be honest no one is playing a storyteller system for the awesome crunch

>>50194170
1. different system
2a. in vtr bloodlines are like prestige classes from d&d and you have "blood potency" to determine your overall power level like essence in exalted
2b. in vtm you just have a clan or bloodline, not both, and you have a "generation" on char creation that fixes your overall power level in terms of blood points, stat caps, etc., and is not often changed
3. vtr is less unipolar and more local

>>50194170
Masquerade is all about playing a single person in a big world. Everything is controlled by conspiracies led by ancient monsters. You are just a tiny cog in a vast, ages-old machine.

Requiem is all about the horror of the vampiric existence. There is no international vampire conspiracy, what matters is what you do to survive the night.

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>>50194228
Nice pic

>>50194201
>That said the lack of a metaplot is super shitty in my opinion in addition to the central rolling mechanic being changed because it makes a distinctive game and setting bland and boring being sold not on good mechanics or good story but the success of the original gamelines because lets be honest no one is playing a storyteller system for the awesome crunch

I have the opposite opinion for exactly the reasons you stated.

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>>50194201
>That entire spoiler
Pic related.

>>50194170
I would suggest picking up the Vampire: The Requiem second edition if you're interested in things.
Requiem is a game about playing vampires, dealing with vampire society, and trying to balance your humanity with the awful things you need to do to survive.
Masquerade is a kind of cartoonish game about ancient vampire conspiracies and being made to do things by your boss for fear of being eaten. It's also got worse mechanics, and honestly the same kind of stories can be run better in Requiem (2e).

But honestly it would be very different to explain the games to someone if they know nothing about either. Without the Compare/Contrast, there are a lot of nondifferences that come up. If you've played VtM:B, that would be a good way to explain the differences, though. Either way, I would very strongly suggest VtR2e.

Because it's worth noting that anything you do in VtM you can do in VtR.

>>50194232
Shut up, it's early.

>>50194229
To be the Devil's Advocate, nearly every VtM module that involves contact with the ancient vampire conspiracy involves the PCs being pretty damn pivotal in it.

But yes, cartoonish, or comic book-ish, is a good description.

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>>50194240
True. But that isn't the theme that's painted all over the entire bloody setting. And not all GM's enjoy playing modules.

Cartoonish, and to be precise. 90's cartoons.
Pic related. Pic way, way too related.

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>>50194267
I would also point out that the PCs tend to be radically exceptional in, say, VtM, due to often outpacing much older vampires. But you're right, I've only ever ran or played in dramatically small scale, low key VtM games -- even if the PCs and their enemies are tremendously powerful, the stakes have always been just simple survival or control of a tiny, tiny town.

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>>50194235

>Because it's worth noting that anything you do in VtM you can do in VtR.

This really isn't true, unless you just mean "homebrew, homebrew away," in which case, the reverse is true as well.

Which fulfills your needs better varies, but there's no denying VtR has its share of horrendous elements as well -- from the unintentional hilarity of Predator's Taint in 1e to the atrociously weird and unpredictable humanity chart in 2e.

>>50194351
VtR is much easier to homebrew.

>Wildly unpredictable humanity chart in 2e
what

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>>50194399

>VtR is much easier to homebrew.

An... okay opinion I guess, but there's simply no equivalent for a lot of stuff in VtR.

>what

Doing human stuff and not doing human stuff can deplete humanity, plus the obvious. There's no real telling when you will be forced to lose humanity, in addition to having to avoid "doing bad stuff".

>>50194448
What is there no equivalent for?

>There's no real telling when you will be forced to lose humanity
"Does this remind me that I'm simply a monstrous demonic parasite inhabiting a corpse, as opposed to a real flesh and blood human?"
If the answer is Yes, then it's a Humanity Breaking Point.

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>>50194484

>What is there no equivalent for?

Paths/Roads for starters, Thaum/Necro Paths & Rituals (it certainly has the equivalent to one or the other, not so much both). And whenever someone is bothered by people preferring VtM due to Requiem lacking a lot of stuff, the inevitable result is to argue that it sucks that anyone wouldn't want to deal with VtR 2e humanity and that its much better and deeper roleplay yada yada.

And since just about anything, including being hurt, dumped, charming someone, etc. (and more, as the book suggests) can do that arbitrarily, it is a pretty humorous, but immensely punishing, system.

>>50193587
>>50193636

V20, M20 and W20 (that is to say, the 20th anniversary editions of oWoD) basically retcon the "Gehenna in 2004"-idea, leaving it up to the individual Storyteller to decide when to implement Gehenna. The newer books even reference real-life events in 2007, 2014 and so on.

>>50193636
>I too am curious. It EXPLICITLY STATES that the guy in >>50192255 had his clan diablerized to the last man on p.24 of Gehenna

Which clan are you talking about here? Are you talking 'bout the Ravnos? If so, we discussed that a few threads back, and it's actually stated in Time of Thin Blood that some survivors of the Ravnos were still around (though only about a 100 or so, and no Elders) after the Week of Nightmares, and that after the Week of Nightmares ended, the Ravnos stopped being all blood-crazy and "Kill each other on sight".

>>50194566

Your clan and thus character doesn't exist anymore. Deal with it.

>>50194576
>Your clan and thus character doesn't exist anymore. Deal with it.

lol, I've never even had a Ravnos char, mate. I'm just clearing up stuff in case people are confused as to whether or not a clan/bloodline is actually dead.

>>50194566
Yeah, I didn't get the impression even in Gehenna that it was strictly in 2004. Did anyone?

I remember when I first proposed the idea of a Gehenna book on the forums, saying it could be an optional sourcebook with a lot of different scenarios that STs could feel free to customize and so forth, and was soundly called a faggot etc.

>>50194588
>Yeah, I didn't get the impression even in Gehenna that it was strictly in 2004. Did anyone?

Oh, sorry, meant 2005*. Though, that's just according to the god-awful "Gehenna: The Final Night" novel, the one with Beckett as the protagonist.

>>50194586
Your character is still dead. Canonically.

>>50194563
Paths/Roads do suck. But that's also one of those things that's easy to slap into Requiem with basically zero effort. And I'm actually pretty sure there are two or three already-in-existence ways of doing that in Requiem. Probably in the Chronicler's Guide.

There's also an entire book devoted to blood sorcery.

>And since just about anything, including being hurt, dumped, charming someone, etc. (and more, as the book suggests) can do that arbitrarily, it is a pretty humorous, but immensely punishing, system.
I can't parse this. But I get the impression it's something to do with Conditions.

>>50194642
>But I get the impression it's something to do with Conditions.

No, it has to do with random and only randomly available humanity loss. You lose it often for a system beyond your control and it requires XP to recover. Not everyone's going to enjoy an arbitrarily punishing system.

Different people prefer different iterations of WoD. You can accept that different people have different tastes, or you can be frustrated by the fact that fools cannot see how Objectively Superior your tastes are and rage against an uncaring universe that somewhere out there, people are having fun in a wrong and often bad way.

>>50194629
>Your character is still dead. Canonically.

Ah, attempted trolling and mindless shitposting, how I've missed you.

>>50194588
>I remember when I first proposed the idea of a Gehenna book on the forums, saying it could be an optional sourcebook with a lot of different scenarios that STs could feel free to customize and so forth, and was soundly called a faggot etc.

Well, it might not be much of a consolation, but the upcoming "Beckett's Jyhad Diary" for V20 is basically what you suggested: a LOT of different scenarios in every chapter and multiple ideas that are presented to the ST in how they could play out said scenario(s). Very Gehenna-related as well, in that it's going to be an attempt to clear up stuff and pull back the curtains on various unresolved characters, situations, cities, etc.

>>50194697
Personally, I considered myself vindicated (in a stupid, baby eating, AT field busting fashion) with Gehenna, because it was (four?) scenarios, with the PCs generally being integral to the storyline.

That sounds far better, however.

Of the end of the world books, my absolute favorite was Time of Judgment, and DtF's especially, because after having been naggingly lectured so long about how "your character is dead! deaaaaaaaad! one of the books says so!" and having been begged for YEARS to run or play a chronicle in which all the vampires are dead (based off some novel in which a character noted the vampires all disappeared), that the ToJ has many, MANY different canon possibilities, especially with regards to DtF (9 different possibilities +), and the book/books don't add up to there being a single, indisputable canon for DtF and HtR.

>>50194679
I feel you have a very mistaken impression of how Humanity works. I can accept people having preferences, but people being completely wrong about how something works is quite frustrating to watch.

>>50194958
Sorry that taking the hierarchy of sins verbatim causes perceived controversy. Either way, incredibly inconsistent rules are something I prefer with secondary rather than primary systems, at most.

>>50194983
Let me change tack:

Give me examples of what you feel the problem with Humanity is, and why you feel that it's confusing.

Also, Paths have a heirarchy of sins as well. And, if I recall, a much stricter one without the bonuses, penalties, and options that CofD has.

>>50195004
I don't find it confusing at all. Sorry.

>And, if I recall, a much stricter one without the bonuses, penalties, and options that CofD has.

Generally far less strict than VtR 2e's incredibly expansive yet brutally constricting system.

I'm the new guy again,thanks for all the answers.I have another question and it's about the disciplines.Is VtR lacking in that department anyhow?I guess I'll try both of the games but I was highly intrigued with the stuff like the ravnos' unique ability and stuff.It would be a bummer to not have interesting abilites like that.

>>50195274

It's got less Disciplines, but more emphasis on Devotions, which are Discipline combos that can do dramatic things. Chimestry, for example, could easily be replicated by Devotions with Nightmare and Dominate.

>>50195048
Fine, explain to me why you seem to have a problem with it through the use of examples.

>Generally far less strict than VtR 2e's incredibly expansive yet brutally constricting system.
Adopting a Path requires you become a serial killer first, even if it's something like the Path of Honourable Accord. Each path has one and only one Sin associated with each level, further making it feel like "Path of What I Was Going To Do Anyway".

It's far from "brutally constricting", and even allows for the option of altering your personal approach to Humanity. Humanity in VtR2e is about how Human you are. Doing or experiencing things that remind you that you aren't human is what makes you suffer a Breaking Point.

>>50195274
VtR2e has only the core Disciplines, but it's not too big a deal in my opinion.

Life •• can make people fall asleep right? Also making a building full of people shouldn't cause dissonance if you can make everyone fall asleep right?

>>50191306
>which is reflected in the Supernal World,
Did you mean the Fallen World?

What about the Lower Depths being the Lie of a Lie?

>>50193587
>How did your storyteller get around gehenna?

By ignoring it? I am confuse as to why so many ask "how did you get arround ZXY canon metaplot?"

Chrod didnt invent rule 0.

>>50195864
I like the way you think.

Would you guys ever play a game where you and your finds would literally just be yourselves in the Wod, and, due to unforeseen circumstances, each member is a different type of splat. Ie, the dm is now a mage, the guy that is always late to game sessions is now a vampire, and some dude just busted in to your session, killed your best friend, and told you he was his fetch?

>>50196423
>crossover game
>everyone plays themselves

You literally couldn't pay me to play either of those things, let alone both at once.

>>50196423
Fuck no man, I don't wanna play myself and crossover is shite.

>>50196423
crossover is pain. If you're ever even thinking about doing it, that needs way more planning than "what if"

>>50196363
We have to obtain a tablet from an anthropology institute. Trouble is we have no idea what it looks like.

My plan is to veil myself from biologic senses walk into the lobby and ritual cast my sleep spell. Then we can search the archives at our leisure.

>>50196715
Think you can get the potency high enough? Also do you have a way to exclude you and your allies.

>>50195864
>making a building full of people
Ex nihilo?

>>50196820
Making a building full of people fall asleep, he meant.

Why do people dislike crossover so much?

>>50196742
>Think you can get the potency high enough?
It's a building filled with academics I'd be surprised if anyone has stamina above 3. To play it safe I could use a knowing spell to locate people and learn what their stats are. With willpower and extending the ritual I think I can manage it. There's a non zero chance for paradox backlash and it may take some mana but I think it's the safest way to avoid any bad business with the sleeper researchers.

>Also do you have a way to exclude you and your allies.
I got Fate•• so the plan is to use that to exclude the cabal from the spell.

>>50196423

Nope.

>>50195625

>Fine, explain to me why you seem to have a problem with it through the use of examples.

Its about as three times as constricting as owod humanity or most paths/roads, for something that is already both 1) unusually tedious at best and 2) something NPCs aggressively ignore. Its the Path of Being Nice (But Humanity's Not About Being Nice, Its Deluding Yourself That You're Not A Monster), the Path of You Gotta Be Around People, and the Path of Don't Do People Shit. Thematically, its a clusterfuck

>Adopting a Path requires you become a serial killer first,

No, you have to have humanity 3 (manslaughter tier, and all forms of murder are still humanity violation), ie a high end estimate of what the majority of NPC vampires tend to act as. Of course there's a lot of reasons to think the Dark Ages Road system is better. But VtR tends to make it adamantly clear Humanity is a PC problem. This is generally a shitty thing all around, as VtR NPCs tend to consider you, well, a fag if you have a problem killing a child during the wedding ceremony or whatever, but even if they abided by the same rules, their lack of screen time would

And of course, that's just the problems of the Path Of PCs Must Be Nice Guys (But Humanity's Not About Being Nice, Its Deluding Yourself That You're Not A Monster), not the utterly unpredictable You Gotta Be Around People and You're Arbitrarily Fucked From Beyond Around People.

>Each path has one and only one Sin associated with each level, further making it feel like "Path of What I Was Going To Do Anyway".

Generally, bossing players around with meta penalties and instructing them on what they should do, lest they be fucked over is something that should be kept to a minimum.

>>50196921
It dilutes the themes of individual splats, you could do whatever trope you want in single splats and generally there is no balance whatsoever between splats.

>>50197126
>>50195625

An example of a game that actually takes the morality stat seriously, regardless of its other (many) flaws is WtF 1e; its clear that PCs and NPCs alike contemplate the seriousness of Harmony violations and their consequences, debate the pros and cons of breaking Harmony.

That is... almost totally (about 99%) absent from Requiem. For people who catch Alzheimers if they break the rules too much, Requiem vampires range from almost totally ignorant or openly contemptuous of Humanity, to having a precisely backwards idea of how to preserve it (Lancea Sanctum consider their business of purposefully bullying and torturing mortals to be a way of preserving Humanity when they're just flushing it down the drain out of religious fundamentalism), to... being nearly the only fucking people in the setting to have a concept of Humanity AND an idea of how to preserve it AND a system to preserve it (the Invictus).

I've DMed, GMed, and STed for 21+ years and I've never known heavy handed meta punishments descending from the Heavens to yell at players for RPing their PCs wrong and snipping off permanent traits to improve things. So by far its natural for me to prefer VtM, or V:DA's much trimmed down moral codes.

>>50196423
>>50196509
>>50196538
I love crossover and I've never seen problems with it. On the other hand I have never empathized with the "you play yourself" D&D cartoon show thing. It shows up in old fantasy novels all the time, too.

I consider myself pretty vain (jerking off in the mirror is reasonably entertaining etc) but I still can't muster the all consuming fascination with myself to want to play a slightly different version of myself.

>>50196921
Mix enough colours together, and all you get is this disgusting black-brown.

>>50197243
The colour beast should have been instead of purple (AKA my favorite colour.)

>>50197126
>their lack of screen time would
Help I'm in suspense.

>>50197279
Oh sorry. Meant, their lack of screen time results in the tendency of STs, modules, and vampire rituals/traditions to have NPC vamps play "humanity chicken" (dooood you should totally drink a little kid dry its tradition) being totally one sided. They just don't have enough time to deplete their humanity, and official NPCs have crazy high humanity scores: the stock LS guy having humanity 8 (in 1e anyway), the stock Belial's Brood guy having an incredible humanity 5, etc.

>>50197180
>An example of a game that actually takes the morality stat seriously, regardless of its other (many) flaws is WtF 1e
Wut. Harmony's only fluff aspect is the Oath of the Moon.

>For people who catch Alzheimers if they break the rules too much
What?

>to having a precisely backwards idea of how to preserve it (Lancea Sanctum consider their business of purposefully bullying and torturing mortals to be a way of preserving Humanity when they're just flushing it down the drain out of religious fundamentalism)
While the Lance annoys me, they're also intending to preserve Humanity *as a whole*. They do bad things to serve a greater good.

>I've never known heavy handed meta punishments descending from the Heavens to yell at players for RPing their PCs wrong and snipping off permanent traits to improve things.
You are misunderstanding the system. And you might as well argue against health damage for the same reasons.

>So by far its natural for me to prefer VtM, or V:DA's much trimmed down moral codes.
But they have many of the same issues, on top of being Path Of Whatever I Was Going To Do Anyway.

>>50197126
Thematically Humanity is one of my favourite aspects of the system and setting. Being reminded that you're a Monster degrades your ability to tell yourself "I'm not a monster".

And degrading to Humanity 3 is still pretty fucking horrifying, especially if you want to join the Path of Being Nice.

> But VtR tends to make it adamantly clear Humanity is a PC problem. This is generally a shitty thing all around, as VtR NPCs tend to consider you, well, a fag if you have a problem killing a child during the wedding ceremony or whatever, but even if they abided by the same rules, their lack of screen time would
Their lack of Screentime would what? And, yes, it's true that in Requiem 1e there was far too much "we slaughter babies and bathe in their blood", but 2e seems to have toned that down, and it was mostly present in supplements (like New Wave Requiem).

>>50197126
>Generally, bossing players around with meta penalties and instructing them on what they should do, lest they be fucked over is something that should be kept to a minimum.
You call it a metapenalty, I call it the thematic core of the game.

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>>50196423
>playing yourself
Not in these sneakers.

>>50197509
>Harmony's only fluff aspect is the Oath of the Moon.

Far from it, a number of books go into detail of the problems Harmony causes, most obviously being ... you're not supposed to kill other werewolves, and Pure and Bale Hounds most DEFINITELY suffer from low Harmony when they violate it.

Meanwhile, NPC vamps just seem to be magically exempt, and virtually no one but the Invictus appears to care about Humanity at all.

>They do bad things to serve a greater good.

Well, the greater good of... torturing people because God. They're not like the Punisher etc. style "do bad things for a good cause," they're more "well God wants us to rape these nuns and castrate these monks and defile this church, because if he didn't, their pure faith would repel us."

VtR 2e more ties the LS into their Requiem for Rome reimagining (that is, "scaring them straight" rather than "Belial's Brood but with crosses facing the right side up") but while they apparently despise low humanity vampires, they don't seem to have any concept of how to preserve humanity or how you actually lose humanity.

>You are misunderstanding the system.

Not at all.

>And you might as well argue against health damage for the same reasons.

There's a million times the level of consistency with health levels. VtR 2e Humanity is just capricious, unpredictable punishment dished out chaotically, because almost anything can be considered to "distance you from humanity."

>But they have many of the same issues, on top of being Path Of Whatever I Was Going To Do Anyway.

Unlike Humanity (which is Be Nice + Be Around Humans + Don't Be Around Humans When They Do Human Things) there's some actual code rather than chaotic punishment -- usually.

>Being reminded that you're a Monster degrades your ability to tell yourself "I'm not a monster".

Its just hard to relate to a protagonist that weak and spineless that having his feelings hurt or getting in a car crash makes him permanently socially retarded.

>>50197509
>And degrading to Humanity 3 is still pretty fucking horrifying, especially if you want to join the Path of Being Nice.

Humanity works in the exact reverse fashion, so there really isn't much to roleplay -- the less humanity you have, the less you care (isn't that a song?). Low humanity is more punishing in owod/VtR1e, but both nwod and owod seems largely written for humanity 1-3 vampires (the PCs are the only ones who seem to react to casual murder and torture), except without the related lack of composure and intelligence.

The way owod and nwod vampire is written is that I get the impression that the PCs are a bunch of Louis types that make NPC vampires think "oh god its those dweebs again, better dare them to kill someone just to be edgy."

>>50197523
Well, you are either interrupting the natural flow of the game to announce that the player has doth screwed up and should roll to see if he has fucked his character up and if so how badly, or possibly warning him first.

>>50197674

>hard to relate

Man, if I got thrown through a windshield and was able to put myself together while everyone else twitched and wriggled in agony and my first was "Man, that exposed bone marrow looks delicious!", you can fucking bet I'd not be able to look at myself in the mirror the same way.

And after you do that a few times, you stop thinking of danger the same way. You start taking chances, making mistakes, and getting messy, because you get away with it.

Someone who is unchanged by going through an accident that, for others, is life-changing or fatal and yet they walk away unharmed... They're harder to relate to, to my mind, not easier.

>>50197778
To my mind, the trauma of a car crash is:

1. The surging adrenal panic of the act itself (vampires don't seem to react much except the actual pain unless there's fire involved)
2. The prolonged period of suffering and recuperation, made worse by there being nothing to fucking do for vast periods of time.
3. Sometimes, you are left permanently disabled.

It would hurt for a little bit, but unless there was fire or friends hurt, there's not that much to traumatize them -- none of the above really applies. Not even a working heart to skip a beat, and debatably no adrenaline. I doubt it would much phase anyone. I don't see what the fucking problem is, there's no "active ingredient." Pain that lasts a few minutes, perhaps.

Sure, if you killed someone, or your friends died, survivor's guilt, etc., sure. Reduced to torpor, or the car was set on fire.

>>50197674
>virtually no one but the Invictus appears to care about Humanity at all.
You were literally just talking about how the Lancae et Sanctum seemed to be the only ones who cared about Humanity.

>they're more "well God wants us to rape these nuns and castrate these monks and defile this church, because if he didn't, their pure faith would repel us."
Do you even read these books? The Lancae et Sanctum has always been about scaring people back into the fold of Christianity or righteousness. Their purpose is to strike terror into the hearts of those who would turn away from God or the Light, and if necessarily kill or Embrace them.

>VtR 2e Humanity is just capricious, unpredictable punishment dished out chaotically, because almost anything can be considered to "distance you from humanity."
>Its just hard to relate to a protagonist that weak and spineless that having his feelings hurt or getting in a car crash makes him permanently socially retarded.
>>You are misunderstanding the system.
>Not at all.
You clearly are. You're both misunderstanding the very system itself and how it mechanically works (a Breaking Point is not an automatic drop) or it's consequences (you do not become "permanently socially retarded"). Nothing about the list of Humanity Breaking Points is chaotic or arbitrary. Many of them are even on the same list in Masquerade.

>>50197722
I feel like you're drastically misunderstanding the system.

>>50197744
Breaking Points happen at the end of a scene, and are essentially emotional hit points.

>>50197847

Having been in more than one car crash (never as the driver, never with the driver at fault), that's not how it works. Sudden, violent traumas trigger human instincts that make us hyper-aware of dangers, no matter how small or unavoidable.

If you are in a serious car crash, the mere sight or thought of getting in a car can cause severe anxiety. For a lot of people, they recover out of necessity; forced to just... Get on with it. For a lot of people, though, that's it; they avoid cars for years.

Pain isn't the cause of psychic trauma; if it were, we could alleviate fear and stress with painkillers. It's the anxiety and loss of a sense of safety and sanctity that is damaging. Humans are really panicky animals and the realization that we are in way more danger than we like to think is painful.

A vampire realizing that they're in far less danger doesn't actually help any more than surviving a plane crash with minimal injuries makes you okay with aircraft; it just emphasizes how chaotic and dangerous the world is.

How a vamp reacts to that can vary - fear, elation, anxiety, introspection, etc.; likely some combination thereof - says a lot about them but having SOME reaction is a marker of being human.

Not reacting at all is weirdly inhuman.

>>50197944

So morality scale in chrod are awful, they were always awful whether owod, nwod or crhod

>>50197778
Bingo.

>>50197847
>>50197944
You know those scenes in movies where the villain is mutated and twisted by their evil powers, then they see the children cowering before them, or get a glimpse of themselves in the mirror and stop, horrified at what they are? That's basically what Humanity is. It's "Oh, shit. I'm not human, even if I pretend I am". And when you experience things that put you lower on the Humanity chart, what that represents is the more difficulty you have in lying to yourself.

"I'm still human, just like those folks"
But the Beast says "no you're not, what kind of a human being walks away from a car crash unharmed? What kind of a human being drinks blood? What kind of human being can do the things that you do?"

It's not about a vampire's reaction, it's about the experience. It's about being unable to go "I am Hugh Mann, there is nothing unusual about me"

>>50197973
Everything is awful if you don't understand it or use it as intended.

>>50198014
Is that why Aspel wants to cut his dick off?

>>50198025
If I wanted to cut my dick off, what would I tell you to suck?

>>50197905
>You were literally just talking about how the Lancae et Sanctum seemed to be the only ones who cared about Humanity.

Nah, I said the Invictus too -- with the LS distinctly caring about it while having no fucking clue what maintains or reduces it.

>Do you even read these books? The Lancae et Sanctum has always been about scaring people back into the fold of Christianity or righteousness.

In the LS book and the Testament of Longinus, its "okay pie, I'm just going to go like this, *NOM NOM* and if you get eaten, its your ooooown fault." In the LS book, a guy even throws a corruption spell on a church to turn it into a den of prostitutes and gamblers. Why? Because fuck humans if they can't stand up to supernatural powers forcing them to be evil, I guess.

>Their purpose is to strike terror into the hearts of those who would turn away from God or the Light,

Or force them to turn away from God and the LIght, and then kill them.

>a Breaking Point is not an automatic drop

No shit.

>you do not become "permanently socially retarded"

In the sense that buying back humanity is spending permanent resources for temporary relief, and somewhere, some day, the clouds will part and the sky will crack open, and God Himself will reach his fucking arm through just to push you down.

>Breaking Points happen at the end of a scene,

I guess that's different between nwod and owod, yeah.

Either way, I never really got the glowing praise of humanity as a mechanic: its such a deeply meta concept (the way that having no emotions makes you sad, and the way that the more you lose the less you care, but the more the player cares). You may have glowing memories of humanity loss, and I see people speak of them often, but I've only seen players become embittered about it and roleplay their characters in a more passive fashion as a result.

>>50198035
A lot of thing? Your cock? I mean, come on, you don't have to have a cock to tell someone to suck it, that's not how stupid insults like that work.

>>50197847
*faze

>>50198014

Or you could understand that complex issues like morality cannot be codified perfectly on a system as there is TONS of buts and maybes and why they are always clunky as mechanics.

>>50198057
You know what, you're frankly not going to be convinced of anything and honestly I don't care, I just don't want to keep hearing you badmouth my favourite aspect of the new system.

>>50198089
They're not that clunky. It's incredibly simple, though I never said that morality could be perfectly codified. I just said that if you don't understand how the system is meant to be used--i.e treating 2e Humanity as morality, or failing to understand what it represents--then of course it will seem terrible.

>>50198060
Well it ain't gonna suck itself.

>>50198057
>Either way, I never really got the glowing praise of humanity as a mechanic: its such a deeply meta concept (the way that having no emotions makes you sad, and the way that the more you lose the less you care, but the more the player cares). You may have glowing memories of humanity loss, and I see people speak of them often, but I've only seen players become embittered about it and roleplay their characters in a more passive fashion as a result.

Well thats because those systems reward less actions/removing yourself from play.

Wanna gain the mechanical benefits of having clarity/wisdom 10? Then use very little magic.

personally i just throw all those systems away after years of enduring them our group came to the conclusion it didnt bring anything to the table we couldnt do ourselves better with RP.

>>50198129
Well yeah, of course it isn't, dicks can't suck themselves and I don't wanna suck a dirty lump of meat no longer attached to a man.

>>50197944
Sure, but I don't get what the "mechanism" is that would traumatize the vampire. Heart rate doesn't change. They don't have adrenaline. They feel pain for a few minutes or seconds, and then its gone. There's no fire, so the beast doesn't care, other than that they probably feel suddenly very hungry.

>Pain isn't the cause of psychic trauma

It is a cause of a LOT of psychic trauma.

Another is the loss: if he's a poor vampire from a poor family, he is probably going to suffer a lot worse.

>Humans are really panicky animals and the realization that we are in way more danger than we like to think is painful.

One would think that realizing you weren't in any danger would be comforting.

The car crash I was in, certainly the traumatizing factor for me was the loss of my FUCKING CAR, my first and best car, to a dumb bitch playing with her AC, and having to mooch off rides evermore. But if I was high enough in the vampire mafia to get a new one the next day, I think it would be far less stressful.

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>>50198129
>I just don't want to keep hearing you badmouth my favourite aspect of the new system.
Well boohoo someone has a wrong opinion on the internet.

Mentioning this isn't going to stop anything.

>>50198163
It's not gay if its girlcock, anon.

>>50197778
Why would you give a shit? The operative factor is people getting seriously hurt (ie not you), and possibly having to live with the disability of carlessness over your carelessness.

What the hell is there to empathize with a vampire so weak that he cannot accept himself for what he is? That doesn't mean "killing people," or not being the softiest cuddliest vampire in town that is a kill joy around all the NPCs who try to dare you into humanity shredding contests, but it strikes me that any vampire who is that emotionally distraught over eating people goo and being a regenerative superman seriously needs to go do some volunteer work at a cancer ward and hospice to put things in perspective.

Novas and exalts don't have these problems.

>>50198129
>I just don't want to keep hearing you badmouth my favourite aspect of the new system.

Hey, I'm not the one who sperged out because someone preferred owod and had to convince everyone that nwod is Objectively Better (TM). You may not be either, but you seamlessly continued the debate.

>>50198211
True, true and if it was girl cock that would be fine... Well unless it's those weird dicks that are bent at like, a 40-60 degree angle, forget what it's called.

>>50198129
>They're not that clunky. It's incredibly simple, though I never said that morality could be perfectly codified. I just said that if you don't understand how the system is meant to be used--i.e treating 2e Humanity as morality, or failing to understand what it represents--then of course it will seem terrible

Clunky doesnt necesarily mean complicated. I am not saying all the morality stats, or whatever you wanna call them as you get pedantic over it not being "a morality stat", are complicated. They arent, they are simple but what i am saying is that they dont work particularly well.

Requiem 2e humanity is frankly not as bad as the rest but again, humanity as a concept is subjective and i can see lots of people not agreeing with the game interpretation of humanity and its mechanical weight.

>>50198217
Novas? What gameline is that from?

>>50198129
>I just don't want to keep hearing you badmouth my favourite aspect of the new system.

Damm aspel, just when i though you couldnt be more of a pussy, you rip off your dick and write shit like this. Bravo.

>>50198266
Aberrant. A surprisingly WW-ish treatment of super"""""""""""""heroes"""""""""""""" (in the broadest of terms, like vampires, they do tend to become both way more powerful and way more monstrous over the centuries)

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>>50198129
>I just don't want to keep hearing you [x]

Since when has (many, many) other people saying they don't want to hear you talk anymore about [something] ever stopped you?

>>50198194
>>50198305
>>50198244
>>50198346
Lemme rephrase: Don't say stupid shit when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

>>50198189
>>50198217
You're missing the point. It's the fact that the Vampire is reminded that they aren't human.
It has nothing to do with "weakness".

Novas and Exalts are also a) from a completely different system with different themes, b) not inhuman corpses animated by the stolen lifeblood of the innocent, eternally damned.

>>50198256
I don't know what your definition of "clunky" is, then, but it isn't what I would call clunky for certain. Also what "rest" are worse than Humanity?

>>50198360
I mean you say that, but I'd say Abyssals, Infernals and maybe the Prom- Liminals could share some vampire horrors.

>>50197973

Even the new versions are still painfully 90s in design and execution. Still, it's part of the draw, so you can't outright replace it.

>>50198360
>It has nothing to do with "weakness".

For you, perhaps. For me, its truly contemptible levels of weakness, and I don't relate to it at all, or how it pertains to the game effect (that is, how good the vampire you're roleplaying as is at roleplaying as a human). And remember, Aspel, you started this shit, and have to bitterly argue with everyone that nwod is Objectively Superior (TM), even if they play both.

>not inhuman corpses animated by the stolen lifeblood of the innocent, eternally damned.

Cry me a fucking river, plus that's just the opinion of the LS.

>>50198420
Unless Neo-White Wolf goes hard in the mother fucking paint on the rules, which I doubt but still, who knows what they'll do with 4e. Do we even have like, -anything- on 4e?

>>50198452

For one thing, it's 5e now.

>>50198452
What? There's only 3 editions out.

>>50198523
First edition: Vampire the Masquerade
Second edition: Vampire the Masquerade 2nd edition
Third edition: Vampire the Masquerade Revised
Fourth Edition: Vampire the REquiem
Fifth edition: Vampire the Masquerade Redemption
Sixth edition: Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines
Seventh edition: Blood & Smoke
Eighth edition: Vampire the Dark Ages 20th Edition
Ninth edition: Vampire the Masquerade 20th edition

Next up is Vampire 10th edition.

>>50198360
>what "rest" are worse than Humanity?

Eh...the other morality systems? 1st edition clarity, wisdom, humanity (1st), Hamony (1st), hamony (2nd), wisdom (2nd)

And before you get all pedantic and whine about how they arent morality system. They work the exact same way that the previous morality system with some "sin" changed or a minor tweak. The basic mechanic is the same.

Clunky in that they dont work well, the feel forced and unnatural to the flow of the game. And the games feel that they have to bend over backwards to justify their existence when sometimes they are unecesary.

>>50198420
>Still, it's part of the draw, so you can't outright replace it.

It is really? WW only vampires had a morality scale of any kind in OWoD. I know they wont but it would be nice if they get rid of it or just make a chronicle guide or something with how to remove the whole mechanic considering the other mechanics attached to it in Chrod.

FUCK. How did Backstop get turned off?

>>50198392
Abyssals, Infernals, and whatever Prom-Liminals are could probably use some kind of a Morality trait like Humanity to measure how much of a fucked up monster they are, sure, but that's not the kind of game that Exalted wants to be.

>>50198446
I didn't start this, and read the fucking book.

>>50198420
In what way is Chronicles 90s?

>>50198452
>>50198523
>>50198543
Masquerade
Second Edition
Revised Edition
20th Anniversary Edition
V:V

>>50198548
They are Morality systems. I fail to see the problem with Harmony or Wisdom, though. Wisdom could be more interesting, but Harmony is great and I love it. The only real problem is that the default suggested sins are weighted too much in one direction.

>Clunky in that they dont work well, the feel forced and unnatural to the flow of the game. And the games feel that they have to bend over backwards to justify their existence when sometimes they are unecesary.
Maybe to you. But to me, they're one of the draws of the game. I want to play a game where there's a heavy emphasis on balancing an emotional wellbeing trait. My fun comes from that. The experiences I've enjoyed the most come from trying to balance what I need to do to keep alive and further my goals or the goals of those I'm allied with, and what I need to do to keep myself emotionally stable and sane.

"That sounds mighty hubristic" is a phrase my ST used an awful lot.

There are also several places where "just don't use Morality" are suggested.

>>50198543
Okay first of all that isn't even in proper order, secondly games don't count, or supplements for a time frame and lastly that's a dumb joke.

Hey /tg question.

Is the rules in Lore of the forsaken to create fetish still valid in 2E?

I read 2E, they give you a rate for the fetishes (1 to 5) and a bunch of effects but doesnt say if i should apply one or all of them.

Normally i would say 1 effect but for a rate 5 fetish weapon it says the weapon gives 8s again which is incredible weak considering all Rahu start the game with that ability.

I am trying to convert 1E official characters and some say they own klaives. How rare is a silver Sword that deals aggravated damage in 2E?

>>50198622
Oh shut up Rory, 20th anniversary doesn't count as it's own edition, come on. Ask Inene or Ivan and they'd say the same.

>>50198635
Technically if you count Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand (11th edition) we should be in 12th edition.

>>50198622
>I didn't start this

Someone with an amazingly similar posting style did.

Also the only thing likely to damn a Christian vampire is the way Lancea Sanctum retardedly choose to abandon faith in Christ's promise to forgive ALL sins, but they do get kewl powerz.

>>50198622
>Maybe to you. But to me, they're one of the draws of the game.

Thats why i said i could see some people dont liking the mechanics. I could see someone liking this mechanic that i think is not very well done, and enjoying the game with said mechanic and i dont think they are an aspel for it.

My best experience with WoD was a apocalypse game because we didnt have a morality mechanic so we were free to RP the shit of the consequences of society asking us to do thing that dont agree with our morals and moral ambiguity of said action.

>>50198664
I thought the 5th edition memeing was based on something WW itself said.

>>50198638
For a 5-Dot one it actually says give the 8-again AND ROTE quality on particular dice pool.

Motherfucking ROTE.

>>50198622

It's an attempt at taking a large and complex thematic character arc and boiling it down to some numbers and dice rolls because that's all people had as their tools in that era of design. It's still an effective enough mechanic, but it's also still pretty 90s.

So much of CofD 2e's design is trying to see how much modern game thinking they can put into a 90s/early 2000s mechanical framework without breaking the entire thing. I think it does it quite well but like an old house with a remodeling, you can't help but notice the older bits.

>>50198839
It is. He's just being an idiot.

>>50198884
>It's an attempt at taking a large and complex thematic character arc and boiling it down to some numbers and dice rolls because that's all people had as their tools in that era of design.
No more than any other aspect of a roleplaying game. And the CofD mechanics are quite a bit different from what oWoD had going for it. If anything, the Morality systems in CofD seem like radically new things compared to Morality in 1e and the Humanity and Paths of VtM. Humanity in Requiem 2e is, in my opinion, an amazing example of mechanics that reinforce theme.

>>50198664
Well something was 4th.
http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/vampire-the-masquerade/963352-vampire-tm-5th-edition

>>50198638
>Is the rules in Lore of the forsaken to create fetish still valid in 2E?

I'd have to reread Lore but I'd suspect not. I specifically didn't build the 2E fetish ratings off the pre-existing content from Lore, as I wanted something to suit the game as we were rebuilding it rather than tying myself to that sort of backwards compatibility.

>I read 2E, they give you a rate for the fetishes (1 to 5) and a bunch of effects but doesnt say if i should apply one or all of them.Normally i would say 1 effect but for a rate 5 fetish weapon it says the weapon gives 8s again which is incredible weak considering all Rahu start the game with that ability.

As a kindly anon has pointed out, I believe that it specifies more than just 8-again at that rank.

>I am trying to convert 1E official characters and some say they own klaives. How rare is a silver Sword that deals aggravated damage in 2E?

Um, well, if it's a silver sword then it deals agg damage on account of being silver, so no need for a fetish weapon there. How common would such a weapon actually be, of course, is another matter. To my mind, full-blown silver swords aren't exactly going to be growing on trees. No need for binding spirits or any of that stuff for one, though.

>>50198965
Well fuck me, egg on my face I guess. That's pretty dumb but whatever, third edition was called Revised afterall.

>Transmedia controls metaplot (To a point.)
>Humans are more than bloodbags
>Not Post Gehenna like the orignal plan.

Fucking gross.

>>50198881
>For a 5-Dot one it actually says give the 8-again AND ROTE quality on particular dice pool.
>Motherfucking ROTE.

I miss that "and". Still for a 5 is that really strong? I mean a rahu with professional training can replicate it and the rules says that the rating of the fetish is the rank of the spirit, isnt a rank 5 spirit almost a god?

So a sword powered by a god gives me the same thing that a particular combination for a chargen pc? Should apply all the effect listed there for a fetish or just pick one?

Or should i use the rules in Lore?

From the mage perspective is it an act of hubris to bind a defeated spirit as a fetish?

>>50199006
>Fucking gross.

What is the problem?

>>50199019
Don't like Social media or the Gehenna being 10 minutes away instead of already there. The human thing was more a joke.

Basically I just don't like it.

>>50198992
>Um, well, if it's a silver sword then it deals agg damage on account of being silver, so no need for a fetish weapon there. How common would such a weapon actually be, of course, is another matter. To my mind, full-blown silver swords aren't exactly going to be growing on trees. No need for binding spirits or any of that stuff for one, though.

I am using Denver and the mayor NPCs have klaives. They dont say what they do so i am assuming they meant silver sword with war spirit like in WtA.

The most direct use for a klaive i can think off is a sword that you could use in Garu to hit aggravated to everything.

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>>50199013
5 dots is a powerful Spirit, but you've got to remember, that's still only 5 dots. 5 Experiences.
Plus Fetishes can't use the whole power of the Spirit, only a bit of what you can siphon off of it while it sleeps.

>>50199015
Probably not an eggregious one.
How you GET the Spirit to that point, and what will happen in its absence is what's more important though.

Spirit of Health who's found itself sticking around a supremely successful Doctor? That's going to be questionable as his work will likely suffer.

Spirit of Bloody Fucking Murder? Nobody's going to miss that Spirit being bound away.

>>50199013
>I miss that "and". Still for a 5 is that really strong?

Yes.

>I mean a rahu with professional training can replicate it and the rules says that the rating of the fetish is the rank of the spirit, isnt a rank 5 spirit almost a god?

No.

>So a sword powered by a god gives me the same thing that a particular combination for a chargen pc?

So there's a couple of things here I think you may be overlooking. First is that even if you can manage to wangle a Professional Training profession for a Rahu that gives Brawl or Weaponry as chosen skills, you still have to spend Willpower each time you trigger Rote. In addition, chargen werewolves are intended to be very good at their specialisation due to the Auspice. Such a 5-dot fetish weapon gives ANY werewolf that level of sheer killing power, regardless of Auspice, and without any Willpower costs either. That's very, very potent stuff.

>Should apply all the effect listed there for a fetish or just pick one?Or should i use the rules in Lore?

Pick one. If you stack them all on it will rapidly get rather absurd.

>>50199058
Klaives in 1e Forsaken were, iirc, just fetish melee weapons - not necessarily silver.

I dropped the term from 2e because it's literally a meaningless holdover from Apocalypse rather than a word linked to anything in the Forsaken setting.

>>50199089
So I should be in the clear if I open a can of whoopass on a troublesome electrical spirit thats been causing electrical fires around town?

>>50199123
Bar any information about personal motives, probably?
Hubris is about the combination of the act and motive.

>50198884

>Humanity in Requiem 2e is, in my opinion, an amazing example of mechanics that reinforce theme.

You need to actually play more games.

>>50199205
And what would you suggest are good mechanics that reinforce theme?

>>50199089
>5 dots is a powerful Spirit, but you've got to remember, that's still only 5 dots. 5 Experiences.
>Plus Fetishes can't use the whole power of the Spirit, only a bit of what you can siphon off of it while it sleeps.

Wait you spend XP for then? As they arent present in the merit section i though that you could only get them through the create fetish rite.

>>50199117
>Pick one. If you stack them all on it will rapidly get rather absurd.

Ok, thanks for answer.

>>50199117
>Klaives in 1e Forsaken were, iirc, just fetish melee weapons - not necessarily silver.
>I dropped the term from 2e because it's literally a meaningless holdover from Apocalypse rather than a word linked to anything in the Forsaken setting.

I see, that explains it.

Question aside would a weapon that deals aggravated to anything be a appropiate for a level 5 fetish, considering i am running a Werewolf game in which the only other splat present (and only as NPCs) are vampires?

>>50197316
that's mostly mechanical in terms of how do I run this npc. There's story in that, but we don't need a dice roll, if you want to the story to go that way

And really we're more interesting in how the PC deal with slow disassociation of their former life, with their need to eat and feed.

>>50199267
>Wait you spend XP for then?

No, you don't spend XP on them.

>Question aside would a weapon that deals aggravated to anything be a appropiate for a level 5 fetish, considering i am running a Werewolf game in which the only other splat present (and only as NPCs) are vampires?

Not really. A weapon that deals aggravated damage to everything sidesteps a couple of elements of Forsaken that I think would be to its detriment - firstly, the role of silver in werewolf conflicts, and secondly, the role of the Bane in dealing with spirits.

I mean, it's up to you for your games, but I personally would never give a character a rank 5 fetish that dealt aggravated to everything for the above reasons.

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>>50197674
/all the stuff

tldr: my ST was a total wanker and doesn't understand pacing and emotional weight

>>50197674
>Be Nice + Be Around Humans + Don't Be Around Humans When They Do Human Things

Levels of steps. You're treating it as if you must apply all 'sins' at all the steps. Not breaking bread with your fellow man is just one more barrier between you and humanity. so at the low ends it doesn't matter. middle ends, doesn't matter. high ends. thats where the minutia of Humanity really hits you hard.

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>>50198057
>In the LS book, a guy even throws a corruption spell on a church to turn it into a den of prostitutes and gamblers. Why? Because fuck humans if they can't stand up to supernatural powers forcing them to be evil, I guess.

Yeah that's exactly the damn point. They keep throwing impossible drama plays and tests. So that they can justify doing the shit they do. 'If they were so pure, they wouldn't have fallen, therefore it is ok for me to eat them'