/osrg/

Does anyone here have experience with either 1st or 2nd edition RuneQuest or 1st or 2nd edition WFRP? How do they compare to old school DnD? What are the appeals of these games?

>>50142297
I've played whfrp 2e. I just enjoy warhammer fantasy and i believe it catches the feel of the setting very well. Fun and fast combat and great magic.

>>50142297
WFRP 1e is a fantastic game, very low level, even in comparison to early D&D. Balanced somewhat by the fate point mechanic, which I discard normally

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Anyone got the Judge's Guild Ref Sheets?
I want to see more tables like these.

>>50142858
Nvm found it on 4shared and printed it to file.
So the rule is you can buy a relationship with women by giving gifts. There is a 1 in 100 chance an encountered woman is bald or 6'9" tall. I love basement dweller rules!

>>50141974
All damage rolls in combat are strictly d6. For non-combat hazards I might use multiples of d6.

>>50111879

Anybody know if this has been added to the trove yet? I can't figure out what section it would go under so I'm having trouble finding it if so, the search function on mega never seems to work for me.

Found a decent ref screen for LotFP
>http://rolandgames.toniruiz.es/2015/01/24/lotfp-unofficial-gm-screen/

>>50141698
Does it changes something about combat to make it less descriptive?

Also the pdf says something about thst if you fonth like how fast is level up you can adjust it

>>50143068

So what is the advantage of taking say a Longsword versus a Mace or any other medium-sized weapon?

>>50144164
Magic item tables, I'd guess.

>>50144164
In most combat situations, nothing.

>>50144109
Very nice! Anyone with a Mega account needs to add this to the trove.

>>50143068
>Rifle makes as much damage as a fist in combat.
Sorry, but that is horseshit.

How to do procedurally generated exploration games? What tools do you use?

>>50144977
>>Rifle makes as much damage as a fist in combat.
>Sorry, but that is horseshit.
1. Combat is abstract.
2. Successful attack rolls and therefore loss of hit points doesn't necessarily mean actually sustaining wounds from weapons. See 1.
3. There are no rifles in my D&D.
4. When you do get a decisive wound, it doesn't matter whether it's caused by a mace, a sword or a rifle; you're going to die any way.

Take a look at this: http://fightingfantasist.blogspot.fi/2010/01/od-weapon-damage.html

>>50144216

But conversely, the disadvantage for NOT using a longsword goes away.

>>50145391
I don't mind that knowing that combat in D&D is highly abstract. Characters and monsters prepared to fight are expected to have "appropriate" weaponry.

It doesn't however prevent me from creating ad hoc roleplaying situations where the weapon at hand does have significance.

>>50145293
1. I know
2. I know. If I want to play a simulation I wouldn't play D&D. Variable weapon damage is just a minor complication.
3. In others there are. What about a trebuchet or an arbalest? They also don't exist?
4. A wound isn't necessarily a deadly wound.
(I take a look at that blog.)

>>50145293
How do you handle the fact that some weapons are just straight better than others?

>>50145634
>4. A wound isn't necessarily a deadly wound.
Yeah but when you do get just a small scratch it makes no difference what type of weapon created that small scratch. It is what it is.

I like to keep things simple and stick more to the narrative and descriptive side of combat. It is a choice of play style for sure and certainly not the only one but in my experience D&D is especially suitable for such abstractions.

>>50145669
Are they? And if I absolutely must have a situation where a combatant is at a disadvantage because of a poor weapon I'd rather give him a penalty to hit, not damage.

>>50144109
I'm still salty that the official ref screen that came out of the campaign for the hardback ref book will only ever be availible to backers; I hadn't found out about LotFP yet at the time of the campaign and the ref screen looks sick.

Personally I kind of like class-based damage, where it's not about the tool so much as the man who wields it. Where the Fighter can kill you just as good with a dagger as with a longsword once he gets up in your face.
Works better in Dungeon World with its range-based combat than D&D though

>>50145744
>Are they?
Consider the mace and the morningstar.

>>50145293
I had a look at that blog and he just says
1. hp=abstract
2. damage=abstract
3. only last hit is a deadly wound
4. therefore it doesn't matter how much damage a weapon does.

That's wrong. Even if you assume most damage is just tiring the character or pressing his luck. Fighting against a man with a two handed sword will test your luck a fucking lot more than fighting a child with a wooden paddle.

>>50145797
>Fighting against a man with a two handed sword will test your luck a fucking lot more than fighting a child with a wooden paddle.
Sure, but this situation is absurd to begin with.

>>50145797
>Fighting against a man with a two handed sword will test your luck a fucking lot more than fighting a child with a wooden paddle.

But fighting Miyamoto Musashi when he's armed with a wooden sword is liable to end with your ass getting spanked and your sword shattered.

>>50145794
>Consider the mace and the morningstar.
For the purpose of playing a game about exploring dank dungeons and recovering mysterious treasure, I consider a mace and a morningstar to be the the exact same things.

>>50145999
Disgusting.

>>50145837
Not if you put an equal skilled man against him with a real weapon.

>>50146228

That's the thing, Miyamoto was dueling against other Samurai, and because he was a massive dick, he used a wooden sword and used it to slap the other samurai's swords until they broke. (All that folding lets the crappy Nippon steel take a great edge, but it also make it brittle when bent sideways)
(Also good luck finding a swordsman as good as old Musashi the Sword-slayer).

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>>50146301

Dammit, forgot pic related.

I'm thinking about making an OSR explicitly based on thieves. Dungeon crawling, breaking and entering theft, conjobs.

Does that interest anyone else at all?

>>50146386
yeah

>>50146386
yes

>>50142858
>Demon lover enraged.

The Ready Ref Sheets, for all their occasional nonsense, are a pretty important OD&D supplement. Certainly better than some of the published supplements.

>>50145837
He did approach that encounter like a PC, though. Katanas and paddles both doing d6 doesn't save you when your opponent shows up late enough that you're getting sloppy, blinds you with the sun, whacks you with a solid lump of wood, and has timed it well enough that he can run back to his boat and get away with the aid of the tide.

>>50142219
I wish Castles and Crusades had decent fan-made content. I love the support that Labyrinth Lord and other old school clones get, but aside from the Crusaders' Companion there doesn't seem to be much out there.

>>50145100
I wonder the same, because all of the stuff I see available for it seems to take ages at the table.

>>50144115
Anon, you shouldn't talk while you have food in your mouth.

To answer your question, Retro Phaze goes out of its way to specifically mention that anything you do offensively in combat, regardless of what you say, is just you trying to inflict harm on the enemy, and should be resolved with the standard to-hit/damage rolls, which makes the combat much less narrative like 0D&D or Basic, but strangely enough seems to make combat go much, MUCH faster than normal. So in my opinion, it balances it out, especially because you're going to be having a lot of combat.

The only non video game element involved is the fact that it pays attention to the range of your weapons. This creates an oddity where EVERYONE has range weapons out at the start of combat, and there's relatively low incentive to close the gap.

Ammo is resolved in an interesting way, yet I don't believe that its unique. Whenever you buy ammo, you have [FULL AMMO] for whatever weapon of choice you have. If you ever fire a shot, as soon as the encounter is resolved, regardless of how many you shot or didn't shoot, your ammo goes down one level.

So it goes
[FULL AMMO]
[ENOUGH AMMO]
[SOME AMMO]
[ALMOST EMPTY]

When you hit Almost Empty, you always have ammo, UNTIL you roll a Crit-fail to attack with a shot, and THAT'S when you discover you're out of ammo. However, Ammo, in all of its states, only takes up one item slot, so you could actually buy three sets of [FULL AMMO] and whittle that down as you go.

>>50144164
>>50144216
The original idea behind uniform weapon tables is that the DMs know what the difference between a Longsword and a Mace are, and would affect how combat was handled even if not mechanically. So if someone tried to use a longsword against something with scales, the DM could be like "Nah, you can't even get through that shell. The attack is ineffective".

Most people nowadays, I feel, would have a conniption if that happened though.

If you consider yourself OK at designing traps and/or rooms, I'd appreciate it if you submitted one to this google form:
>https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd2RWB8ZkcDaMYdHl-A-6S0bEHBU_1rNFrMHnUha69QvCeSzQ/viewform
I'll make sure to share the complete collection later if it actually gets enough submissions, but I made sure that you can see the results either way in case that doesn't work out.
I think. This is the first time I've used Google Forms, so I'm not sure if I got everything right.


I figure that I might try running one of those OD&D Solo Dungeons here some day, see how far /tg/ can get. That might be entertaining.
Maybe this weekend or something, I dunno. I'll have to make sure to make some magic-users in advance, since those are always a pain in the ass as random monsters.

What are the most innovative OSR?

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Please bear with me here: I had a group, long ago. We fell apart, I got bitter, but now we're meeting once a week again for board games (non-rpg). I would like to ease them back into RPG's because it seems GMing is a drug I can't quit.

Thing is, we only have about 3-4 hours once every couple of weeks, and they're all, despite my best efforts, casuals.

I'd like to try and run something tight, focused, something in the style of what I imagine was used in D&D tournaments in olden days: with set goals or perhaps some sort of scoring at the end. This wouldn't diverge too much from what they already recognize from board games.

I'm comfortable with Swords and Wizardry, I know the players would be able to handle it, but it seems this is a system that emulates D&D before the advent of tournaments.

What are some good adventures that fit my bill? If there's nothing like this for S&W, is there a list of known and reliable one-shot adventures that I could use for inspiration? Perhaps a list of popular adventures used at gaming cons? I don't want to go plume mountain on them from the start.

>>50148089
DCC.

>>50148107
Use DCCs tournament funnels.

>>50148089

Black Hack, Into the Odd. Bits of Beyond the Wall are pretty newfangled. Wolfpacks and Winter Snow does some interesting stuff, too.

>>50148138
I am reading about DCC now. Looks good, hope I'll be able to use it and not just put into the dusty collection of pdfs I have.

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For your pleasure I removed the name-fagging in the LotFP screen and optimized the ridiculous image size.

>>50144164
Not that guy, but the classic way of differentiating weapons is to use the Chainmail Weapon vs. Armor table. It basically makes a sword better at hitting a lightly armored or unarmored enemy, while a mace gets through heavy armor better.

>>50145100
>How to do procedurally generated exploration games?
Use the procedure to generate content before the game starts, not at the table unless the PCs walk off the edge of what was pregenerated.

>>50147064
>all of the stuff I see available for it seems to take ages at the table.
See above, but also consider making an app or something to generate with on the fly.

>>50148089
I'd say Wolfpacks for the simple reason that it shows an actual understanding of the mechanics and incentives of OSR D&D and manages to put forth *new equivalent incentive structures* for a game about different things than classic D&D is about. That's miles beyond what anybody writing their own games BITD managed to do, and few games since. To me, that's a big deal.

(Most people just complain and bitch about various rules without understanding at all why they're there or how they work within the system, and then change the rules they don't like assuming that the game will magically still work after you altered crucial bits to make it "more realistic").

>>50148410
The full version of the rules - including the AD&D adaptation, I suppose - also has other interesting little differentiations, like longer weapons striking first on charges and significantly shorter weapons getting multiple attacks.

The Chainmail spear sucks ass, though, to the degree that there's even an article in The Strategic Review #1 where Gygax responds to complaints about it. The weapons vs. AC tables in their d20 form also went through three separate not-entirely-identical evolutions in Supplement I: Greyhawk, Swords & Spells, and the AD&D Player's Handbook. Stuff got buffed and nerfed over time.

(Interesting note about Chainmail-to-D&D conversions: goblin light sensitivity in Chainmail is -1 to a 1d6 roll, meaning that they can't hit anyone with decent armor at all, but got turned into a -1 on 1d20 in OD&D, and then later -30% (i.e. -6) in Swords & Spells before getting swapped back to -1 in the Monster Manual.

I imagine the people in charge of updating OD&D monsters weren't the same ones writing S&S, who presumably noticed the Chainmail-to-OD&D problem?)

Is Fire on the Velvet Horizon in the trove?

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>>50148572

This guy knows what he's talking about.

>>50148580
>The Chainmail spear sucks ass, though
Yep, agreed. It's a serious flaw, but the table in general, and as a concept, is a pretty solid alternative to variable weapon damage since it's a highly defensible claim that all wounds from weapons exist on a roughly equal scale of grievousness.

>Interesting note about Chainmail-to-D&D conversions
The same's true of a bunch of other Chainmail conversions -- including the weapon vs. armor modifiers themselves, I believe. They were bizarrely sloppily done given that Gygax himself must've been at least aware of the probability work in Chainmail, as co-author.

>>50148572
You've perfectly summed up everything wrong with people who attempt to replace Vancian magic.

Point/Mana based systems don't work in games designed for them let alone trying to retrofit it into D&D.

>>50148679
I think a lot of it might have been intentional? Even stuff like OD&D having +1 to +3 swords, while Chainmail has the exact same range suggested.

I remember a quote about how Gygax got a bit peeved at some players who were using a 1d12 to resolve morale/reactions/whatever rather than 2d6, since it fucked up all the probabilities - I can't imagine that Gygax was unaware of how things got changed when moving from the 2d6 man-to-man system to the 1d20 alternate combat system (not to mention the 1d6 dicepool mass combat!)

Which is why the weapons vs. AC chart in Greyhawk is so bizarre - it just assumes that 8 is +0, IIRC, and just goes +-1 for every +-1 on the 2d6 chart. It's a straight port, no frills attached.

I guess it might be more balanced or something? I dunno. I think Gygax might have just been pressured into including it by player demand, and did a half-assed conversion to appease them? Kind of like the OD&D Halfling, in a way.

>>50148695
Oh, spell points work perfectly fine in some versions of D&D - 3E's Psionics is a wonderful implementation.

It just turns out that it takes a lot of effort to make a good spell point system, and most people who are interested in doing so either don't put in the effort (e.g. 21 first-level spells at first level, or alternatively two fifth-level spells at first level, or alternatively one ninth-level spell at first level) or realize that for all the effort they're putting in they might as well go fix the rest of the things that bug them about the system and WHOOPS you've got a new RPG that's trying to compete with D&D.

Seriously, you want one very simple relatively balanced variant on spell points?
>You have one spell point per level
>Casting a spell costs one spell point per spell level
Bada-bing-bada-boom, you've got a not-overpowered spell point system. The main problem here is that it's a lot weaker than vancian casting, and the Venn diagram with spell point designers doesn't overlap much.

Hey, can someone tell me how missile combat works in 2e for magic items? Like if I have a +2 bow I know thats +2 to thaco and damage, what does using magic arrows do with that?

>>50148931
>D&D - 3E's Psionics is a wonderful implementation.

I wouldn't know, like 99% of the population my DM's wouldn't let Psionics at the table because of how unbalanced they were or something... wait.

>>50148931
>The main problem here is that it's a lot weaker than vancian casting
Is it? I'm not sure if the increased flexibility doesn't make up for the lower number of theoretically castable spells.

>>50148618
Also wondering this

>>50148931
>Seriously, you want one very simple relatively balanced variant on spell points?
>>You have one spell point per level
>>Casting a spell costs one spell point per spell level

How would you govern spell point regeneration? X amount of points per hour? 8 hours rest and they're all back?

>>50148931
Which book describes 3e's take on psionics?

>>50149263
>How would you govern spell point regeneration?
I'm not him, but I'd use the same thing as for Vancian casting: spell points refresh only between adventures. You can't get any back by taking a break, so there's no point in obstructing the adventure to get your wind back. You just have to be judicious with the resources at your disposal at the start of the expedition.

>>50149347
For 3E: the Psionic's Handbook. For 3.5: the Expanded Psionic's Handbook, I think the name was.

>>50149347
If you want the awful take on it that clung too close to 2E's take on it, 3.0's Psionics Handbook.

If you want the one that's actually worth giving a shit about, 3.5's Expanded Psionics Handbook.

>>50148965
Beyond the misunderstandings about the scary system they aren't used to, a lot of anti-psionic attitudes stem from the AD&D psionics which were... sketchy at best, I suppose? They never really worked all that well, IMO.

>>50149263
Whatever method you use for magic-users. Slow regain is a pain in the ass to track.

>>50149044
Then limit the number of spells known, I guess? Honestly, that variant I gave is probably horribly underpowered - when you get access to a new spell level you're shooting off one spell per day and then you're dry. You've got a fuckton of first-level spells, but you really quickly run out of juice if you ever try to use higher-level ones.

A good implementation takes effort and, well, that one didn't take effort.

>>50149544
>Beyond the misunderstandings about the scary system they aren't used to
Oh, also, there's the whole fluff issue where some people are of the opinion that psionics are too sci-fi to fit in their D&D setting.

I don't agree, but that's their opinions and they're allowed to have them.


Seriously, though, the best thing 3E psionics did? They torched Psionic Combat and just made it into an alternative casting thing. Old psionics is too caught up in being two or more separate systems all competing over the same resources, all because the editing process for Eldritch Wizardry was a nightmare and its psionics were literally cobbled together from two separate systems.

>>50149544
>A good implementation takes effort and, well, that one didn't take effort.
Actually, what I meant to suggest with my post was that your implementation was one of the better ones I've ever seen, effort or no effort. Plus, even if it ended up being underpowered that would be the best place to start from since you could just sparingly hand out more points until shit felt right -- no player will ever bitch and moan about getting more points, but taking them away will rankle even with most good players, so starting out with lowballing them is the best strategy.

>>50149668
>so starting out with lowballing them is the best strategy.
That's probably a good idea with homebrewing in general, really - better that people complain that your shit is too weak than that they complain that it's overpowered. One's going to get banned and looked at negatively in the future, and one's going to maybe get reconsidered if there's a patch.

You aren't going to hit the sweet spot with your first try, so you should probably work your way towards it from the shallow end of the pool

Come to think of it, wouldn't a spell point system where you get quite few points naturally be a very good one for using magic items and such? You could have a whole class of implements offering extra spell points if you have access to them between adventures, or if you carry them with you, wear them and so on, even regular stuff like wands would become that much more valuable. Magic drugs which give extra spell points at the risk of addiction, using ritual paraphernalia and even sacrifices to get extra points... if spell points were scarce the temptation would always be there, which I think is an interesting idea.

>>50147391
Thats a nice way of managing ammo, any tip before running it?

>>50149668
Maybe every x levels a magic-user gains y amount of points. I'm not sure how that would work over longer periods of time.

>>50149759
I feel like it's been done before, although I don't know how well.

It's certainly something you could work with, but I feel like you'd need to rejigger things and create your own classes/spells/magic items etc.

So, you know, you run into the old "if I'm going to put this much effort into it, why not [X]?" problem, where X can be anything from endless development creep to creating an all-new fantasy heartbreaker to just giving up on the project due to the required effort involved.

Especially since, well, that's a lot of effort for something that might not end up worth it - just for starters, going that far off the beaten path is already dividing your potential audience into teeny-tiny bits.

I'm sure that we can all think of some highly innovative and unusual game that we would never play since it's TOO innovative and unusual.

>>50149884
You probably don't want to stick too hard to a formula, to be honest - perhaps it's better to just move around the numbers on a spreadsheet and see how many possible spells you'd get? I dunno.

>>50148443
Sounds interesting, Did B/X itself have some good tables for this? Or a 3rd party supplement?

>>50149544
Your opinion is shit, it's the same as everyone else's manufactured false opinion even as you proclaim the superiority of false editions.

True AD&D psionics are best. False edition psionics are false and inform nothing.

Is the guy who was working on converting the d6 mass Chainmail combat battle system to DnD still here?

>>50150038
>True AD&D - False edition
Get lost already you idiot.

>>50150038
How the fuck can AD&D psionics be the best when AD&D psionics is a bastardized, watered-down, unbalanced version of Eldritch Wizardry's psionics that somehow managed the nigh-impossible feat of being harder to keep track of than fuckin' Eldritch Wizardry's god-awful editing?

Since you're a bit of a troll, I'll also take the chance to make a trollish point about you crowing about "false editions" when you're talking about Advanced goddamn Dungeon and Dragons, the game that Gary Gygax Most Definitely made all on his lonesome with no prior help or inspiration, no sirree, these rules are 100% pure Gygax in origin.
Seriously, "True" D&D? Yeah, fuck that shit. Piss on Arneson's grave while you're at it, you've already unzipped.

Also, man, there's like five different variants on AD&D psionics, none of which are identical. I think it's five, anyway - 1E, Psionicist article, Complete Psionicist's Handbook, Dark Sun, Skills & Powers, and The Illithiad? Did I miss any noteworthy variants?
Fuck, I don't think the later ones even use the psionic combat matrix. Didn't they also give up random power selection at some point, and waffle around a bit more on the psionic combat vs. non-psionics bit? I don't even know, man. AD&D psionics is such a fucking mess.

>>50148089
ACKS is a pretty good extension of B/X and has something for every traditional fantasy campaign. DCC does a lot on the micro class end and has a very interesting replacement for Vancian magic. I agree with all the people saying Wolfpacks as well; >>50148572 sums up much of the reasoning.

>>50149914
>So, you know, you run into the old "if I'm going to put this much effort into it, why not [X]?" problem
I agree that there's a risk, but I've also seen a fuckton of alternative magic classes and systems for old-school D&D; I feel like Last Gasp alone must've created three or four, and the Carcosa system's infamous of course.

I think there's space for making all new shit there and still recognizably be D&D, although I do agree that very few of the systems will have many fans. For most of the really out-there ideas it would also be a Herculean task to keep things balanced against the standard casting classes for purposes of fitting published modules and so on, no doubt.

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>>50150221
>you're a bit of a troll
Bro, True AD&D is a full troll; calm down, don't let him get to you and don't take the bait.

He's actually kinda funny as long as you don't make the mistake of taking him seriously.

>>50150421
Yeah, sorry.

It just really pushes my buttons, y'know? OD&D's psionics were fascinating when I first read them, if confusing, so I went to see how AD&D handled it. AD&D did a pretty good job with converting most of the OD&D material, you know? How much worse could it be?

Good God, how much worse could it be?

All the fun little bits I liked about OD&D's psionics? Gone. The only thing really remaining in something close to its original form is the psionic combat, but it's burdened by the ridiculous "one attack every segment" rule and also has a bunch of small annoying tweaks like making it easier to brain-fry non-psionics (moving the required Psionic Attack Strength from 120 to 100) and, well, randomizing which psionic attack/defense modes you end up with.

The OD&D ones scale with the number of powers you know, see, so if you're a newbie you can only Psionic Blast while a master could use Psychic Crush to kill people outright (not to mention defend themselves and all their buddies with Tower of Iron Will).
AD&D? Nope, you know a random number of them at character generation and IIRC never get any more. Choose whichever ones you want, I guess.

And then the powers! Good god, the powers! OD&D's pretty neat in how it divides things up so that each class has its own little list of available things, so the kung-fu monk "mind over body" shit goes to the Fighter rather than the Magic-User. AD&D? Nah bro, let's just put it all in one big pool and see what happens.
Similarly, that little note about how, when you as a DM are making the random tables, you should make it so that they're more likely to get stuff that's related to powers they already have? Nope, one big pool.

And all those neat little flavorfull class-specific drawbacks to psionic power are gone, of course - the magic-user doesn't lose spells, etc.

Man, I get that Gygax didn't like the system and only included it because of peer pressure, but why did he have to fuck it up so thoroughly?

>>50150585
I'm really sorry for you.

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>>50146386
The focus avoiding combat and making out alive with loot prods at my OSR heartstrings. I'd say go for it anon.

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>>50146386
Here's some more thief art to inspire ya

>>50150221
Arneson is a piece of shit and so is anyone who defends him, like YOU you fucking piece of shit. Fuck his shit. I bet you piss all over cancer patients while they struggle for breath like he did for Gygax? Claim false authorship to something you had NOTHING to do with? His whole fucking existence is based around Gygax allowing him to share credit.

HURR I ROLL 3d4 FOR ABILITIES, I INVENTED D&D. FUCK YOU. 3.0 and 3.5 are FALSE EDITIONS deal with it you fucking cuck.

Here's where it ends. Anyone who plays anything other than True TSR Editions is a fucking cuck. Suck nigger bull dick, fluff 'em up for Arneson cuckbois.

>>50146386
This is a natural fit, since arguably D&D is all about thieves in the first place -- magic-using thieves, fighting thieves, and (controversially) thieving thieves. Conan is a thief; Faf and Mouser are thieves; anyone who goes below to steal the treasure of the orcs is a thief. You'd just be sharpening the focus a bit; it makes sense. It would probably make for a good resource for less strongly-focused games, too.

>>50151799
This bait is way too aggressive to really emulate True AD&D well. I give it 0/8, and may God have mercy on your soul.

>>50151799
>>50152086
People do conveniently ignore all the bad stuff Arneson did though.

>>50152116
>all the bad stuff Arneson did
What stuff exactly would that be? By all accounts he seems to have been a decent dude who was fond of games and less fond of self-promotion, prone to favoritism when DM-ing but a great creative worldbuilder.

If you have some secret villainy to reveal, let's hear it.

>>50152116
This. Arneson is like August Derleth, running his whole campaign off in Minnesota while the Real Men were dancing with the shoggoths in Wisconsin.

"Hey Gary, I play a game kind of like yours but it's totally different!" Writing letters and not actually playing in the same campaigns or even the same state. "Oh cool Dave, you're a big boy now, let me just use none of your ideas ever."

"Gary you made it big with your game, can I have credit too please I wrote you letters". "Sure OK I'm nice." "HAHAHAHA YOU FAGGOT, I INVENTED THE GAME, HAVE FUN DYING OF CANCER HAHAHAHA"

What are some good exploration-based DCC modules? I feel most of them are rather linear.

Has anyone read Castle Zagyg? Why the fuck has nobody scanned it for the rest of the world? Do they hate it so much?

>>50152462

they're all like that, they're mainly designed as one-shot tournament style modules, just find a non DCC adventure and run it with DCC

>>50152462
I haven't read it yet but you might like Peril on the Purple Planet.

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>>50152357
Uh, are you actually clear on who Dave Arneson is? You've got the order completely reversed. It was Arneson who first started using Chainmail for his Braunstein campaign set in "The Duchy of Blackmoor" - he ran a demo game of Blackmoor for Gygax which convinced him that this could be a new game by itself.

Gygax was huge, no doubt - Arneson was using Chainmail, after all, but the whole idea of playing Chainmail with players representing individuals, with a referee to arbitrate between them, was entirely Arneson's to start.

>>50152258
Retroactively changed his story multiple times to minimize the perceived influence Gygax had on blackmoor*. While working at TSR multiple employees complained he worked on personal projects including a fanzine on company time and contributed little-to-nothing to the company. Ironically stole credit from Megarry.

* which was literally a unreadable unplayable mess until Tim Kask got his hands on it and rewrote the ENTIRE thing.

>>50152528
Innovations particular to Arneson's Blackmoor games also included Clerics, the Turn Undead ability (which from comments seem to have functioned less like an "auto-rout" ability originally but instead was more of a "barrier" to Undead, as per the Hammer Horror TV show the Cleric is pretty clearly stolen from). Blackmoor also featured thieves, but apparently the rules in Blackmoor may have been different (the rules Gygax published for OD&D's Thief class were instead taken from a different source).

Castle Blackmoor was essentially the very first dungeon, and Gygax was inspired by it to create Castle Greyhawk a few months later.

>>50152582

Do we have info on Castle Blackmoor? anything I could read through to see what it was like?

>>50152826
First Fantasy Campaign, published by Judges' Guild, should be in the Trove.
It's literally all an account of the Blackmoor campaign, including the (somewhat underwhelming from this side of history, but what can you expect) first ten levels of the dungeons.

Maybe someone tried this already so I might as well ask:

Anyone tried replacing DCC's XP rules with modified gold for xp ones that work with the reduced number of gold coins gained and the progression curve

>>50150309
DCC doesn't use Vanacian? What does it use for Magic?

>>50153121
It's been brought up many times before and I've been looking too. It seems like no one is up to the task, or the task is fundamentally impossible to get right.

>>50153527
It's semi-vancian. The player rolls a d20 to see how well he managed to perform a spell. If it's under a certain number, he loses the spell. If it's over then the spell is performed (at varying levels of success depending on how high the roll was) and the spell is kept. If you roll a 1 then you misfire and/or corrupt yourself.

>>50149855
Yeah, the best way to run it is to build a full sandbox, complete with encounter levels. That's the only real bad thing about it, is that it assumes you're going to have the entire map drawn out before the first day of play.

>>50153733
i was thinking, how risky is combat in this game? normally in most OSR, players tend to be cautious about everything, even bad positioning in combat could lead to their deaths

what's everyone's favorite books of monsters?

>>50155033
The Teratic Tome for the edge factor

>>50148956
Would anyone be able to answer this?

>>50155471
I believe they stack.

>>50155033
Still Fiend Folio.

>>50155784
What's your favorite monster from it? I really want to run a game with the Fiend Folio as the default monster source.

>>50150221
Dark Sun 2e, S&P, and The Illithiad are the same system (which is also in GW 4e).

>>50154652
Much less so than in other OSR games. I haven't played it to high level, but one thing that struck out at me is the monster abilities start getting incredibly sick as you go on, but that's rather standard for OSR. However, this is somewhat counteracted by the fact that the PCs level up crazy fast, and they start out with a good 4x the normal hit points of a level 1 OSR character. This one is all about that FF1 feel, so expect a lot of combat.

Positioning and things like that are much less of a deal. It really plays out like FF1 in that you have a menu of Attack, Magic, Defend, Item, and Run Away. In fact, I love the run away mechanic because it's basically a roll, and if you beat out the monster's rolls, you escape 100% from combat, and you cannot be touched, but you can't come back to help.

Speaking of deadly affects, I really love how they handled poison in this. Once you get poisoned, you take like, 1 or 2 damage or something per round. It never wears off. Instead, you can pick up antidotes, which drinking doesn't automatically mean you're cured. Instead, it gives you a second chance at the saving throw to avoid being poisoned. So it starts off as being a comical point as you read the instructions, but then someone gets poisoned, fails their save, and realizes they're royally fucked and should have actually spent money on the cheap-ass antidotes

>>50150585
An OSR hack of Eldritch Wizardry psionics would be cool. Streamlined, without completely losing the flavor.

Does anyone here run a wounds system? What effect do wounds have on the character and their abilities? I've been thinking about how to incorporate one for a bit now.

>>50150585
>I get that Gygax didn't like the system

You answered your own question.

>>50150019
Refer to the appendix of the AD&D 1E DMG. Procedural wilderness and dungeon generators.

>>50155963
Would you play this game over your [insert favorite OSR]

>>50150421
I don't think it's a troll. Closer to a running joke that some people don't realise is a joke. I mean, you don't think it's always the same guy, do you?

>>50156232
Ultimately? No. it's only meant for one style of play, and that's specifically to emulate Final Fantasy 1 and nothing more. It's hard to generate random encounter tables on the fly, so it has no portability, and in fact REQUIRES you to have the world pre-configured, so it's not even low effort. It has low compatibility with other OSR games because it uses a d6 system with numbers balanced purely around itself, and any unique features of the game are very easy, infact brazenly easy, to ad-hoc lift and insert into your actual favorite OSR.

Overall, it's a fun, workable system with a few flaws, but ultimately strings itself up with how niche-specific the audience is. If they changed it up, maybe added a balanced MP system instead of slapping the FF1 semi-vanacian system into it, allow you to play a more Dragon Quest styled game or even later FFs like 3, 4, or 5, this could easily be my go to combined with a pre-made setting map that I can work on and off on in the background. But as it is, it's hard to recommend it for anything other than a dedicated Wizardry fan.

Final Grade: C

>>50156400
3 uses semi-Vancian, doesn't it?

>>50156527
Oh yeah, it does, doesn't it? I completely forgot about that. Though, after looking at the pictures and seeing how much of each spell level it gives you, they might as well not have. Seriously, 14 level 8 spells per day.

>>50148572
This is the first time I've heard of it. Sell me on wolfpacks. What makes it great specifically?

>>50156765
Do you like stone age adventures?

>>50156814
No, not at all. I prefer Renaissance.

>>50156851
Wolfpacks is an OSR hack designed around stone age stuff.

I'm looking to map out a region for a new campaign I'm starting. I've hand-drawn a rough map, but I was thinking of doing hexes for crawling purposes.

Anyone got suggestions for decent hex mapping software that doesn't look like ass?

>>50156765
Very flavourful classes, magic is suitable for the setting. Xp is gained by survival based things (making stuff, coming up with uses for parts of animals). Good reasons to explore the surrounding lands (caves, food sources and other interesting things). I homebrew some parts but its very fun and robust overall.

>>50156860
>>50156875

Interesting. Somewhat reminds me of Kingdom Death.

>>50156871
>that doesn't look like ass?
Hexographer can make you something that looks like an old TSR hex map.

Failing that, you can put a hex overlay on your drawn map in Photoshop or something, or use the I Boardgames Extension for Inkscape to make a labelled grid, then draw on it or something.

how i can make a hex board?

Idea: For a thief based OSR system, lumping INT and WIS into a general 'Wits' attribute. Having a Luck attribute that affects damage multiplier for sneak attacks:

-3: x1
-2: x2
-1: x3
0: x4
+1: x5
+2: x6
+3: x7

Dumb?

>>50156400
it doesn't seem that the authors of the game will check the game any soon less make an other edition, maybe if i fall in love with it will take my time and adapt it, but yeah its a hard thing that characters cant do stuff like disarming and move attack move

or yeah that is another option, adapting stuff to my favorite OSR, this friday i am going to test this with my group and see what they think about it

>>50148580
>The Chainmail spear sucks ass
One advantage is that spears can fight three abreast in a 10' corridor. Kind of hard to do that with most swords or an axe, which would get two on the same frontage.

>>50148965
>I wouldn't know, like 99% of the population my DM's wouldn't let Psionics at the table because of how unbalanced they were or something... wait.

Because most 3.PF DMs didn't actually read the psionics rules

>>50157113
dump that and use a thievery stat

Does anybody have any links that describe how to create a dungeon level layout? As in, not how to stock, not how to give it a purpose, but literally a guide as to how many rooms it should have, how to arrange them, how many corridors and how long they should be, etc. etc.?

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>>50157174
Take a look at this: The general idea is LotFP specialist skills (but centered on Thieves only) meets DCC style saves and attributes.

What to keep? What to lose?

>>50157290
Actually I am fucking retarded and realized I already had a backstab skill. Whoooooooops.

>>50157290
The idea is that there are thief 'archetypes' (classes). Certain ones would start with +2 to certain Skills, like:

Cutpurse: Sleight-of-Hand
Trickster: Read Scrolls
Spy: Speech (-modifier is actually good for intimidation. +is good for persuasion)
Highwayman: Outdoors
Assassin: Stealth
Burglar: Tinkering
Thug: Force Door
Acrobat: Climb

Or you create your own. Each level would let you add 2 additional points to any skill.

blah blah. I'm a strong proponent of the Thief class and think that it would be a fun OSR to create where your players were a gang of *explicitly* thieves hired on to do various jobs like B&E, heists, long-cons etc.

>>50156765
So, things I like about Wolfpacks:
>hitpoints divided into Flesh & Grit, meaning that attacks going directly to flesh can take out even experienced characters.
>dead simple encumbrance.
>Simple but compelling survival mechanics; weather, food gathering, hunting, herbalism and so on.
>XP rewards, tribe management and GMing framework designed to produce the loop 'explore wilderness > clear out cave systems > attract followers > expand and explore more wilderness' etc.
>essentially vancian magic system overhauled to avoid spellbooks and costs in GP. A system involving cave paintings and scavenged occult ingredients replaces this, incentivizing magicians to explore the environment.
>magical experimentation can do brilliant things but risks fucking up and causing weird-ass fallout.
>implied setting is weird fantasy paleolithic, with mammoths and neanderthals alongside shoggoths and the undead.
>made by a /tg/ regular on her own
False Machine wrote a very positive review of it, fwiw.

>>50157482
Oh yes. I love flesh/grit. Makes ambushes so beautifully one sided

>>50157482
Oh, that sounds kind of neat, I might lo-
>made by a /tg/ regular on her own
>her
...how much wolf fetishism is in here?

Be honest.

>>50157557
Zero, thankfully.

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What's your favorite monster?

>>50149171
>>50148618
There's no pdf version of it.

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Alright /osrg/ let's get out the good shit. You know, the inspiration.

>What treasure is hidden in the dungeon beneath the old well?

>What is the strange thing in the clearing?

>What is that horrific noise that can be heard at night?

>>50158366
>Treasure
An old brass coin, tossed into the well long ago for good luck. It was a conduit to another world, and through it psychic horrors began to infest the well. Living mold, parasitic larvae, aberrant crustaceans and warped myconids guard the coin now.

>Strange thing in the clearing
The skeleton of a warrior, slain unfairly in a duel. They say that if you place flowers upon his body at midnight, he will whisper a grim secret.

>Horrific noise
Gutter-eels in the redlight district. When they're snagged on hooks and dragged out of the sewers and into the street to be butchered, they let loose a (supposedly deadly) curse.

>>50146386
If there will be good subsystems for fencing stolen goods, covering tracks, and collecting information about target - yes. That would be interesting.

>>50156000
I've never been interested in psionics much, but Courtney Campbell from Hack'n'Slash did Psionics supplement which is supposed to be an organized and tweaked version of both EW and AD&D psionics, I think. It's in the trove

>>50157395
>>50157290

Me and my mate recently discussed how first Thief games are totally OSR and now he's planning thieves only campaign, also LotFP as a base. That'll be helpful, thanks.

>>50158850

not just Thief, Underworld was very much too, but maybe not to the same extent, but definitely if you look at it in terms of megadungeon design

>>50157557
There's none of that. Cavegirl is great.

>>50157290
I like the sheet, at least; not fond of the saves, so much, but as long as they're descending simple rolls as opposed to 3E style and not tied to stats that should be fine.

I'm also doubtful about Speech skill, that seems best handled with roleplaying even if you do want to encourage Ocean's-style cons. (For my part, the way I'd run it would be to assume all thieves have the competence to not drop spaghetti just from lying, and judging based on the plausibility of the actual claims they make)

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>>50148956

Hey guys.
I and a pal started writing up a small OSR adventure module with the intention of putting it up to RpgNOW and Drivethru.

It's more to kick "become a published author/illustrator, TECHNICALLY" off our bucket lists than anything, really.

What do you think the appropriate way of doing this would be? set up a blog, or a website? FB account? G+? Nag illustrious OSR bloggers into reviewing our thing? Before or after publishing?

We're pretty much making this up as we go along, so all input and help from people who already went through this is appreciated.

>>50158366
>What treasure is hidden in the dungeon beneath the old well?
Beneath it, or at the bottom of it? I'll go with the second since it's hard to build things underneath the water table in an aquifer:
A pile of ancient sacrificial goods. Stone axes are succeeded by bronze swords; gold foil figurines standing in for human sacrifices mingle with carved jade horses and gemstones in the round; a tall, curved helmet-crown studded with jewels is the most valuable of all, although its plumes have long rotted away.

>What is the strange thing in the clearing?
On closer inspection, it's Dagon. Roll a sanity check.

>What is that horrific noise that can be heard at night?
That's Dagon too. He's got a new stereo system and now there's no living with him.

Okay okay, serious answers to the last two:
*The remains of a ritual: a magic circle, a burnt-out brazier, and so on. But where has the caster gone? Perhaps careful study will let a magic-user learn the spell?, and
*A sect of wailing flagellants, which makes a procession each day after nightfall. These peasant ecstatics are convinced of the imminence of a divine reckoning, and may grow into a dangerous force of unrest and rebellion.

>>50156004
I run a wounds system.
mine is pretty simple.
the effect on wounds:
At <3/4 WND a Character has +1 ENC.
At <1/2 WND a Character has +2 ENC and -1d to most rolls.
At <1/4 WND a Character has +2 ENC and -2d to most rolls.

(ENC = lotfp's encumbrance. -Xd = up or down the dice chain. eg. -1d on attack rolls would be a d16 instead of d20)

Hey, /osr/, got a question - what are some good Weird Fantasy modules and settings for OSR games? Honestly I'm planning to use them out of OSR territory, but I like the way OSR material is written.

>>50160167
>weird fantasy
That's like 90% of all OSR. Could you be a bit more specific about what you're looking for?

>>50160223
mostly just whole settings published as separate PDFs, something I could read without having rules in the way

>>50160562

Carcosa, and World of the Lost might fit.

>>50160562
should've added, anything I could rip ideas from, too

>>50159102
I think yer right about speech. I'm gonna replace it with Disguise.

The saves will be old-school descending, just condensed into 3 categories as opposed to 5. All start at 16 and players reduce 4 points from any per level starting at lv. 1 (or something to that effect). Rolls are modified by stat bonuses.

>>50142858
>>50142949
>>50146552
The Judges Guild stuff is what I want to collect/complete after the last TSR stuff is hammered out. Speaking of, I need to finish that.

If anyone finds JG stuff we don't have, I'd loved to have it.

>>50143637
I don't think it has. I don't think I've seen it.

>>50144109
Nabbed and thrown in inbox.

Speaking of --

ATTENTION TROVE BACKUPS:
Clean-up guy asked me to keep the inbox going so people could check and see what's new. I'm going to clean out and file away everything on Friday. Backup anons have been warned.

>>50159303
> Nag illustrious OSR bloggers into reviewing our thing? Before or after publishing?
I'd review it for you. I'm not exactly illustrious, but I do get some readership. I plugged cavegirl once already, so I'm kind of an open door for anyone from /tg/ who comes up with decent work.

>>50161369
>I'd review it for you. I'm not exactly illustrious, but I do get some readership. I plugged cavegirl once already, so I'm kind of an open door for anyone from /tg/ who comes up with decent work.

I have no idea if mine counts as "decent". The pdf is essentially finished and we're at the final proofreading / playtesting stage. Still getting things straight. Probably gonna toss up a website and stuff like that for contacts.

What's your blog? How do I contact you?

What's the best place to get free art so I can publish my system?

>>50160562
Try Yoon-Suin.

>>50161537
I've been lazy recently, but it's http://swordandscoundrel.blogspot.com/

You can send me the pdf by email, if you want. ajaxmalloy @ gmail.com

>>50161356
You should nab my edit instead:
>>50148357

I edited the ref sheets to be around 9MB. Ideally someone get the original, I printed it to file.
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=92121168881609637996

>>50161356
>If anyone finds JG stuff we don't have, I'd loved to have it.
IIRC you still don't have City-State of the World Emperor?
>https://mega.nz/#F!MEJS0QiT!XLyXhowDhByGWNSoZwJDmA
These were the only complete files I could find back in, what, february?

Discussion topic:
What are the top 5 modules you want someone to play to teach them what OSR is/should be?

>>50162888
B2
CM1
X1
T1-4
WGR1

In no particular order. I did think of putting DLC1 in there as a 'not this' example.

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>>50162888
Top 6:
DCC 81: The One Who Watches From Below
Deep Carbon Observatory
The Flayed King
Death Frost Doom
The God That Crawls
Sleeping Place of the Feathered Swine

All of these manage to capture the whole 'shit is weird, yo' vibe that I dig, they're fun crawls through places that make the PC's feel like they're in over their heads, and the promise of treasure is combined with natural human curiosity makes them want to continue, if only to discover what's around the next corner. And, if you object to the fucked up content of LotFP, all of these are pretty easy to swap over to DCC for less weirdness.

So I'm writing up a Chainmail Retroclone. Anyone interested in seeing the progress?

>>50164275
I'm doing something very similar. I'd love to.

>>50164290
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G2hsxniubLyRI2ocRHe0ILjv5TzgdeYOkHN_uL1q5fw/edit?usp=sharing

>>50164364
Neat

>>50162888
Deep Carbon Observatory, In Search of the Unknown, Something DIY, Tomb of Horrors, Gone Fishin'

>>50160562
>>50160167
Yoon-Suin

Weird Adventures

Deep Carbon Observatory

Fire On The Velvet Horizon

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>>50158221
minotaurs are pretty great

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>>50158221
the humble zombie

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I'm in a confusing place, /osrg/

There's an oversaturation of DMs in my gaming group. We have seven people who are actively playing. My best friend became a second DM, sometimes alternating our sessions Flailsnails-style and also doing some horror one-shots.

Since we took a break, now there's two more: first is already running the game, second is preparing one. First guy is going through the usual awkward first-time-DM phase, which by itself would be okay but sadly he also insists on running Warcraft (everyone played it at some point, I was a huge lore junkie too) and even after numerous sessions behind his belt he's still hellbent on the idea of epic heroes saving the world, and as a first session showed, railroading for the sake of plot. He's a good friend but I don't know how many more sessions I can take.

Second guy wants to run 5e Adventure League, which might be okay, but most likely mediocre at best. At least he's genuinely trying to prepare it, unlike Warcraft guy who didn't get even most of the basic rules right so far (some 5e hack).

So the current DM / player ratio is too much right now. Me and my best friend are clearly about OSR, so we're in a need of attracting some normies and probably switching to something really slick like Into the Odd.

Typing all of this made me slightly less confused.

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>>50166405
I don't know where you have acquired your graphic accoutrements but I requisition you to materialize additional articles of similar style forthwith.

>>50162888
B2, G1, Caverns of Thracia, Tower of the Stargazer, A Red & Pleasant Land.

That being said, I'm one of those megadungeon + sandbox people, so I don't really feel like any prepackaged module really captures the OSR style. Maybe Dwimmermount?

>>50166405
>>50166496
Sauce, and more please.

>>50161537
I mean, stick the WiP pdf up here and I'd give it a once-over.

>>50167180
The female soldier pic is "Defeat" by Yoonsik Kim and the other is "Cromwell at Marston Moor" by Graham Turner.

>>50166405
Didn't this pic cause some sort of mini-controversy at some point? Is it even from an RPG product?

>>50167631
looks like something Virtualoptim would masturbate to

>>50158366
>The collected secrets of every couple made by wishing for love, trapped and howling in a box.
>A enormous boot of a defeated giant, the flesh and bone of its foot still remains and slowly regenerates. The local villagers gather monthly to consume the growing flesh to prevent the giant's return.
>The slow wet slap of piled organ meat, gathered after a day's ritual scrying and sold to the wretched who gather in the ziggurat's shadow.

Roll under ability sucks ass. Abilities should play a roll but not a decisive roll. I mean look at 5e and people now almost universally think rolling attributes isn't a good idea because of how crucial they are. And OSR is usually 3d6 in order.
That and going with LotFP I think the system misses one thing. Some kind of check for stunts and shit. Everything not covered by skills.

1 in 1d6 is to small for adding ability modifiers.

What should work is:
2d6 + relevant ability mod + difficulty mod against 10. Thats almost 17% like 1 in 6 without ability and difficulty mod. So you have the same basic probability but you can adjust the difficulty and add ability mods.
You can also add auto fail on 1-1 and auto success on 6-6 for spice.
A 1 in 6 success is pretty difficult, if we look at B/X ability checks (roll under) you would have a 40% success at 13. That is pretty much the same for 2d6+1 against 9. So for a not so harsh referee I would go with 9 base difficulty not 10.

If something is fighterish, roguish, wizardrish, etc. you can give a bonus - or malus if it's not. The same for character backgrounds etc.

You can simulate a mighty deed mechanic with this and not only for a fighter. Just let players reroll a check once a day for every X levels for doing their class shit. Or let them have a once per day bonus to any crazy thing they want to do that's in role.

This mechanic is better than 1 in 6 because you can add ability mods and circumstantial mods without skewing too much.

It is better than roll under ability because they should not be too important.

Note: This should not be used to avoid dangerous shit, saving throws are for this.

I was inspired by this discussion here:
http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/discussion/topic/346/unhappy-with-1d6-skills/

>>50167925
Whoops miscalculated that
> if we look at B/X ability checks (roll under) you would have a 40% success at 13.
Can't revise the math atm because anydice.com went just black and I'm lazy.

>>50167925
>stunts and shit

Roll two attack rolls, one for the stunt, one for the attack.

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>>50161540
Search for clip art online using terms like "public domain." I shamelessly stole this one for my system. I might pay an artist friend to do another version so it can be "mine."

>>50168227
I.e. high level fighters do every stunt against lightly armored enemies - everyone else won't.
The party would get pretty wrecked too btw, if 8HD BBEG with several attacks starts disarming and tripping people with this mechanic.

No, stunts should be more special and not too easy.

>>50158366
>There is no treasure, only the lying tales of travelers and a town that lures the dissolute youth of the wealthy to their doom.

>A copse of trees, once a sacred grove. Tales say that if a girl entwines one of her hairs with a hair taken from a boy and buries them amid the roots he will fall in love with her within one year.

>A goat. It's just a regular goat. Your party isn't familiar with them and everyone in the inn laughs at them when they rush out to confront the sound.

>>50159369
>I'll go with the second since it's hard to build things underneath the water table in an aquifer
What if the buildings predate the rising water table?

>>50168317
There are several image search sites for free art.

>>50168324
>high level fighters do every stunt against lightly armored enemies - everyone else won't.
>No, stunts should be more special and not too easy.

That way lies fighter nerfing feat tax madness.

>>50168393
Feat tax casters then.

>>50167925
What are your players doing that you are constantly rolling ability checks?

>>50168348
Yeah but I'm after something unique.

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>>50161540
wikimedia commons has some excellent stuff, particularly if you're decent at photoshop to clean some of it up.
Here's something I'm putting in WP&WS deluxe when it happens.

Well I disagree. Most important stunts will be by fighting and the fighter is the best for it. A 13 strength lvl 4 fighter would in your mechanic make stunts against unarmored enemies 7/10 hits. That's crazy. I mean if you want crazy rules which can be a lot of fun that's DCC's (or Hackmaster lol) territory.

>>50168509
That was for
>>50168393

>>50168461
Nothing. I referee very seldom unfortunately but I love rules. Rules over ruling IMO. But simple and elegant rules. Not rules for their own sake.

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>>50168509
Well, seeing that OCR's philosophy is "characters are inert meat-puppets that do only as well as player's competence, limited by dice, allows them", I think that players who fight well IRL should have a way to utilise their competence in the game.

>>50148572
>>50156765
>>50156875
>>50157482
Can any of you niggas hook me up with the rules?

>>50169415
here's a link;

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/189190/Wolfpacks-and-Winter-Snow-PDF

So what's going on with the background image of the lotfp site? It's ridiculous.

>>50170203
Weird Fantasy

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>>50159303
Share it here and we'll tell you how bad it is.
Run it all the way through. Better yet if you get someone you trust to run it and they don't get to ask you for any advice or clarification until their done, they'll have a bunch of feed back. If you have some sort of online presence already then just link to it from there.

I'm not sure if you don't, maybe see if you can buy [YOURNAME].com? You're probably going to want an email address for feedback it too.

A week before you intended to release it send a free copy to every blogger and reviewer out there (check the OP) even if it seems out of thier wheel house, you never know who they're going to share it with. With any luck someone will write something. You could perhaps send a small portion of it on the appropriate G+ communities, or if they system has it's own forum make an account and post a some of it there (in the appropriate place for advertising!). Either way include a small message to the effect of
"I made a adventure about [subject matter] with my good friend [name]. Attached is an early copy of it before it releases next week on [websites]. -signed [your name]"

>>50170203
Looks normal to me? It's made to be a seamless vertical tiled image (with an edit of the image to show a person with a gun at the top), perhaps something messing it up for you?

>>50170279
>>50170457
I'm talking more about the woman with the gun.

>>50170502
She's fighting some abomination, what about it? It's the stuff that's expected if you run LotFP modules.

>>50167822
The juxtaposition of scantily clad and a fucking execution is pretty jarring.

>>50170927
Honestly it's a pretty good art piece. It triggers a reaction and tells a story pretty well. Can't say I like the idea of people jerking off to it though.

>>50170993
Better they jerk off to fantasy than to real shit. The picture is really great. It absolutely conveys emotions, which is the definition of art.

>>50169927
Thanks a ton homie

Why does Caverns of Thracia suddenly get all this love?
I never heard of it beforehand.

>>50171967
I think a lot bloggers started writing about it having good game design and that one could learn a lot from it, so people are deciding to check it out.

>>50170457
>Share it here and we'll tell you how bad it is.

I'll see what I can do. It's not only my work, so I'll ask the other author before posting it up on 4chan of all places.

It's beein playtested, though I haven't found an independent DM to try and run it.
I plan on having a website or blog up, and already have an email.

I never used G+, so I don't really know how to handle that side.

>>50170993
I jerk off to it.
I wouldn't want to actually experience this in any capacity and I sure as Hell wouldn't jerk off to that.
Sexual fantasies and reality can be very, very different, and rape fantasies typically are.

How big should a megadungeon level be? How many rooms and how much wealth should be in it?

>>50172359
I've recently been reading some old modules to figure this out. I would suggest looking through stuff like Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Caverns of Thracia, White Plume Mountain, etc.

Anyone read or GMed Tower of the Stargazer?
Call me pedantic but it says in the second printing the tower is 80' tall and there are 40' tall spikes near the tower which meet 40' above the middle of the tower. Am I missing something here or did Raggi fuck the dimensions totally up? The spikes should be 120' high right?


>>50172359
Look at the recommended megadungeons and compare?

>>50172440
>did Raggi fuck the dimensions totally up?
It's WIZARD FUCKERY, obviously.

>>50172440
It's just Raggi being a dumb retard as usual.

>>50172137
Yeah sorry, I didn't mean to say that it's wrong to jerk off to it, it's just that I personally don't like the thought of it. Carry on.

>>50171967
>suddenly

Man, where you been? It's been widely held as a brilliant design for ages. Notice the praise for Jaquays and Thracia in particular in this analysis of dungeon design:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?168563-Dungeon-layout-map-flow-and-old-school-game-design

>>50172471
I like Raggi, he's great, it's just that sometimes he has bad ideas. All creative people do.

>>50172643
I like the rest of the module. It has a fantastic atmosphere. Really looking forward GMing it in two weeks on a con. (If any players show up that is).

>>50172643
>I like Raggi, he's great, it's just that sometimes he has bad ideas. All creative people do.

That's what "editors", "proofreading", and "listening to other people's opinions" are for, but he's either too proud or too dumb to do any of the above and that's how shit like Death Frost Doom got shat out.

>>50172832

>That's what "editors", "proofreading", and "listening to other people's opinions" are for, but he's either too proud or too dumb to do any of the above

As if the gaming world isn't rife with poor editing.

>>50172832
What's shit about DFD?

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>>50172832

>Death Frost Doom
>shit

I want your opinions on 5e, both in how it compares against older editions, and just in general.

>>50172440
Ahh, I think I actually misread the part. He said the spikes lean toward a point 40' above the tower. Not "to" a point. That of course makes a difference. Sorry!

>>50172832
>editors
>proofreading
>listening to other people's opinions

That ain't OSR.

>>50172914

Kind of a mishmash, can't seem to decide what it wants to do, power starts too high and ramps up too quickly for the sort of deadly game I'd prefer.

>>50172914
It's a lot more heroic than older editions. Abilities are crucial, so much as it can be almost seen as a design flaw. I.e. rolling for abilities makes a world of difference for characters. I'm not a fan of standard array or point buy. It feels like a CRPG mechanic not like P&P.

The power curve is a lot different than older editions. Afaik you're supposed to breeze through lower levels.
Healing hitpoints is almost instant in 5e while OSR games mostly have 1hp/day healing.
Advantage/Disadvantage is an interesting and simple mechanic. But it will lead powergamer PCs to argue a lot for it because basically anything circumstantial can give you A/D.

I like some ideas, like the dropping of the magic mart and wealth/level shit. A lot of streamlining and it's a right step after 4e. But the thing is it tries to reconcile all editions, which gives any type of player something but it's a jack of all trades and master of none. The OSR mostly doesn't like the Bard class.

>>50172877
>>50172858
projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/rulebook-heavily/death-frost-doom/
this guy puts it better than I probably could.

>>50172853
top whataboutism pal

>>50173075
>projects.inklesspen.com

Is this site supposed to be serious? It reads like a SomethingAwful article, and a low effort one at that, since most of it is quotes.

>>50173075
>this article I read calls it shit so I ought to repeat it like a sheep

>>50172914
Modern D&D: totally centered around a party of 4-5 characters at all stages of game play. Character backgrounds and story are important.

Old school D&D: the campaign, its environments and interacting with the world is key. Player characters are just pawns on the playing board.

>>50173124
>No one is ever allowed to agree with anyone else, no two people will ever have the same opinion on something. If someone agrees with someone else, then it can only be because he's simply repeating his opinions

>>50173119
>offered criticism about something
>reject it because of the layout it's formatted in rather than because its contents

I used to wonder how a hack like Raggi could even find an audience of edgy teenagers to sell his shit to, but this explains a lot.

>>50173075
>projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/rulebook-heavily/death-frost-doom/

WTF is that
>top whataboutism pal
nice reliance on ad hominem

>>50173075
>Yes, there's a chance your character will permanently want to move overseas to marry someone with every dose they take of this drug. Or just become a permanent rapist, whichever. It always comes back to sexual violence with these bad RPG authors sooner or later.

>want to move overseas to marry someone
>sexual violence

Um. What?

>>50173169
>>reject it because of the layout it's formatted in rather than because its contents

I wasn't talking about the layout, I WAS talking about the content. Like a SomethingAwful page, or an attempt to be a low budget The Angry Roleplaying Game Nerd or some shit. It's smug, smarmy, and downright insufferable. Like this shit:

>"So somebody from something called Penny Arcade ran some Swords & Wizardry."
>-Raggi, demonstrating his knowledge of the modern world

>LEL who doesn't know PENNY ARCADE OMG it's like he's not one of us cool internet nerds guys!

Just fucking awful.

>>50173169
>reject it because of the layout it's formatted in rather than because its contents
That's literally what the guy who wrote that "angry nerd review" did, though.

Anyway, can you leave? Last time we got into this stuff everyone was having a bad time and the comfy feel of the general suffered. Haven't you been at this for months at this point?

>>50173169
>No one is ever allowed to agree with anyone else, no two people will ever have the same opinion on something. If someone agrees with someone else, then it can only be because he's simply repeating his opinions

Yeah, but instead of using YOUR OWN WORDS to say what YOU didn't like you just posted a link.

>>50172914
Unlike OSR games it's very, very heavily balanced around point-buy for characters. Once you get to level 14-ish you start getting into the crazy heroic power level. The magic system is Vancian-esque, but they tweaked a lot of things.

It's a damn good system in my opinion, and I run a fairly OSR game with it with only a few houserules. That said, it doesn't replace OSR systems for me. DCC and LotFP are on par with 5e and I like them all for different reasons. But, do check out 5e. It can really catch players' attention if they enjoy the crunchy aspects of character building but it's managed to avoid the munchkin-ey builds of 3.pf.

>>50173075
>In order for the party to have their first conversation with this man, you need to roll a d% dice, then depending on the result either roll another d% or roll a d4 and then a d%. Then maybe you wait for up to forty minutes game time.

>literally cannot imagine using d4 to roll for 25% of something happening

This is a fucking trainwreck of a review.

>>50173230
>Anyway, can you leave? Last time we got into this stuff everyone was having a bad time and the comfy feel of the general suffered.

Alright, but only because you asked nicely. Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

>>50173236
Doesn't help that I actually read the review he posted and the guy reviewing lacks basic language comprehension. Half of the points he complaints about he misunderstood completely. Like the Oath-swearing that's supposed to drag you to hell if you break your word. Instead he just interpreted it as "read it and die"

>>50173262
Mind sharing the houserules? Debating whether to run a 5e campaign.

>>50173044
>magic mart
Couldn't stand the magic mart myself, but it's pulling up a problem where players are just sitting on gold they have no idea what to do with. Anyone have a solution on that count?

>>50173169
Rather ironic, considering layout and formating were something the review complained about for paragraphs, isn't it?

>>50173355
>Couldn't stand the magic mart myself, but it's pulling up a problem where players are just sitting on gold they have no idea what to do with. Anyone have a solution on that count?

Is that a 5e problem or an OSR problem?

Not familiar with 5e but in OSR, there are quite a few moneysinks either already built-in in several systems, detailed in books and DMGs, or easy to implement.

One of my favorites is "You only get the XP when you SPEND that money". It might not be the best or most refined, but it's simple and to the point.

It also encourages a lifestyle of wild partying, ales and wenches, etc. and that's always amusing.

>>50173075
>projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/rulebook-heavily/death-frost-doom/
I suspect this blogger doesn't know how to, or want to, enjoy OSR games in general. He seems to have problems with lethality and lack of plot.

>>50173405

Asking more for 5e, as it's worse there, as it lacks many of those built-in sinks (Wealth as XP, investments, hirelings, etc) that much of the OSR has. Although, admittedly, I've heard some of the same complaints towards later bits of LotFP, but I'm taking both with a grain of salt.

Seriously, who was the guy who uploaded all of the OSR/5e houserules recently? I'm blanking on the site/name.

>>50173355
I use LotFP's encumbrance with 30' as the base move speed in combat rather than 40', I use the ammo system from Retro Phaze, my players and I have all dropped using the 5e Inspiration system for the most part.

Food/water is also important. Two day's of rations doesn't take up weight, but carrying 3 day's for one person counts as an encumbrance point, and 4-6 counts as two, 7-9 as three, etc. Same with torches.

I highly suggest some sort of encumbrance rule. Otherwise, the game feels -very- highpowered. The default system for it all in 5e is wonky as fuck, and I deplore counting individual ammo as well.

>>50173504
Why not 40'?
Works better considering that being low on encumbrance is supposed to be a reward in a way.
Afraid of messing up monk abilities?

>>50173814
A wood elf monk could start moving 55' per round by default, dashing to 110' per round for a ki point and just.. It's a little gnarly. I would love to hear how it works at 40' to be honest, but I'm not willing to try it with my group.

I've been developing an OSR game for a while now and I'm stuck. I have two different and mutually exclusive combat systems built for it and I can't decide which I ultimately want to go with.

> Option A: The familiar with some house rules that are interesting. Things are more or less exactly what you'd expect.

> Option B: combat system based on the three-system setup of Chainmail with some smoothing and polish. Makes running larger battles between hirelings and mooks easy. Makes things more interesting and deadly overall. It takes more chances, stands out, etc. On the other hand, it's going to be less familiar and less compatible with other OSR games than the safer route.

>>50175023
Go with the latter. A lot of people are interested in these systems, and you could easily get a crowd that way.

>>50175023

How easy is it to run old modules with Option B?

>>50173044
>rolling for abilities makes a world of difference for characters
I do agree about this, especially with games that rely on character abilities more than player abilities. I'm actually thinking of porting 5e's point buy and standard array to The Black Hack simply because ability rolls make up nearly the whole system.
One thing I do like about OSR games is that you don't even need to ability scores or even roll for them. You can assume everyone has average stats and barely anything would change.

>>50175023

Seconding >>50175058 half of the reason I'm looking through everything I can (even completely noncompatible stuff like Reign) is for shit that scales/works well with hirelings

The real reason that Death Frost Doom is shit, though, is because it's a horribly substandard copy of The Lichway. Like, brazenly so.

How the hell can you fuck up stealing a thirty-year-old three-and-a-half-page module?

>>50175225
>One thing I do like about OSR games is that you don't even need to ability scores or even roll for them. You can assume everyone has average stats and barely anything would change.
That's... sort of true. More so in the case of, say, OD&D - if you're not using Greyhawk's stats, attributes don't really matter too much.

If you're using B/X stats, though, like seemingly every fucking OSR clone out there? An 18-strength Fighter 1 is more accurate than a Fighter 6 with average stats and does twice the damage. Fuck, a 16-strength anyone is automatically in the next hit bracket. Constitution gives you up to +150%HP, although for a Fighter it's more like +75%, Dexterity can make the magic-user harder to hit than the Thief and give the Thief the equivalent of chainmail & shield with a pittance of the encumbrance, and that's some aspects of the physical stats!

Charisma's one hell of a force multiplier, even in (or perhaps especially in) OD&D, and can easily make a character with it as their highest stat twice as powerful as everyone else.

>>50175023
Maybe consider something more familiar for the mass combat system? e.g. make it still use d20s to hit or whatever, just abstract away the units as 1:20th scale or whatever.

It would also help if things could be readily converted from one system to another without losing much in the way of mechanical accuracy, I suppose.

Like Swords & Spells/BATTLESYSTEM(TM) except hopefully simpler, basically.

>>50175380
I was thinking that even in B/X, you could assume every character is average in all stats and they would still be competent in their areas of expertise. Later editions have skill checks and saving throws affected by stats, so they assume you'll have high stats appropriate for your class.

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>>50175380
>a horribly substandard copy of The Lichway

An awesome module whose first edition was clearly inspired by the Lichway, you mean.
The Lichway's neat, but it's just a three page sketch of a dungeon, that shares only a few things with DFD: The idea of a bunch of undead held back by a weird singing thing, a powerful NPC lurking further back in the tomb, and uhh... both have some spiders in there, I guess.
Calling it a copy is being facetious.

>>50175453
I forget, did B/X add Wisdom to magic saving throws or was that just a later thing?

(Also, of course, lol attribute checks.)

>>50175507
>The idea of a bunch of undead held back by a weird singing thing, a powerful NPC lurking further back in the tomb

...So pretty much the core concept of DFD?

>>50175550

Yeah, like I said, DFD was clearly inspired by it. Lichway had this neat concept, but it was all but forgotten in an old White Dwarf magazine, and was never fleshed out beyond that three pages. So Raggi made his own Lichway, giving that neat concept the red carpet treatment it deserved.

So I have started a small open table dungeon crawl. My dungeon is around 40 rooms, but in our first session we only did about 3 rooms (3 hours of play time, it was great fun!). So I might be able to run this dungeon for some time.

I was thinking about constructing a (small) wilderness map so that I might refer to, for instance, a local village for supplies, or a local hermit for sage advice etc, and to have some sort of in-setting excuse to roll wandering monster checks if the party decides to rest outside the dungeon (plus more reason to head to town and spend some coin for a good sleep!). Now my question; how big and how populated should this wilderness be? I am making a list and atm I only got this:
- Encounter table with 6 random encounters
- Town (supplies, rest, hirelings)
- Local sage (rumors, magic item help)
- Small treasure cashes or something like that.

So OSR general, what is your advice on small wilderness sections surrounding a central dungeon?

>>50175576
>horde of a billion zombies
>DMPC mary sue
>"giving that neat concept the red carpet treatment it deserved."

BRILLIANT adventure writing there.

>>50175613
You're bringing it up again, aren't you?

>>50175613
Begin by telling us how this isn't good adventure writing and let's go from there.

>>50175612
Keep it contained. Maybe use hexcrawl rules and make a small 10x10ish grid of 6-miles hexes. Put at least 10 locations there.
Dungeon
Town
Lord's manor
Sage
Secondary dungeon
Secondary town (a lesser hamlet)
Magic place (wizard's tower or something)
Enemy fort (like a hobgoblin camp or whatever)
A "weird" location (could be a harmless stonehenge deal or something bizarre like a crashed spaceship)
A tenth one depending on what you feel like you need

>>50175693
I was definitely planning to go with some hex crawl rules. I just never like the idea of a 6-mile hex; it feels like so much surface area to visualize on such a small piece of paper. I was thinking of just sketching in a small country side that the party could travel around in within a few hours.

>>50175550
Also, it's a weird singing barbed plant that makes the undead fall asleep. And killing it awakens the entire horde of undead.
Guess which module I'm describing? Both, of course, but The Lichway did it better by having you actually encounter some sleeping undead beforehand so it's not a shitty out-of-nowhere gotcha, and they just start wandering around as wandering monsters.

>>50175576
The Susurrus got into the fuckin' Fiend Folio, man. And got into Best of White Dwarf Scenarios, for obvious reasons.

Also, the original oozed flavor and makes sense in a way that Death Cold Frost, well, doesn't. On account of being a poor man's undead-themed crypt dungeon.

Fuck, even Gygax had enough presence of mind in '74 to write in OD&D that instadeath traps aren't that good an idea and in any case unsporting - DFD follows on from the worst of Tomb of Horrors-style tournament bullshit, without requiring any of the player ingenuity that makes the Tomb of Horrors good despite that.

>>50175728
Hexcrawl is meaningful is you expect some wilderness exploration. If you don't want to push that angle, just a smaller-scale, non-hex map is fine.

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>>50175613

Those are both elements it shares with the original, so you're not really scoring any points, just making yourself look retarded.

>>50175744
>shitty out-of-nowhere gotcha
Yeah, Lichway is genuinely better. DFD is just a neverending list of out-of-nowhere gotcha.

>>50175744
>Also, the original oozed flavor and makes sense in a way that Death Cold Frost, well, doesn't
>even Gygax had enough presence of mind in '74 to write in OD&D that instadeath traps aren't that good an idea
>follows on from the worst of Tomb of Horrors-style tournament bullshit, without requiring any of the player ingenuity

I'm glad to see that not everyone here drinks the Raggi koolaid.

>>50175793
>drinks the Raggi koolaid

>People disagree with me, so I'll insult them

>that'll make them take me seriously

>>50175793
>I'm glad to see that not everyone here drinks the Raggi koolaid.
Remember that not everyone who refuses to swallow baseless bullshit at face value "drinks the Raggi koolaid".

>>50175023
Clearly option B. There's just no reason to rehash stuff with personal tweaks at this point, it's something everyone does constantly.

>>50175023
Do B. I'm playtesting my own houserules for d6 combat for my own group and I'm interested in seeing what other people came up with.

>>50175793
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

>>50175952
I'm sorry I disturbed your Raggi Echo Chamber by having the gall of possessing opinions outside of your hugbox.

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>>50175974

Jesus christ, dude, you really can't handle other people not sharing your opinions, huh?

>>50175974
Fuck off already. You already wrote that you were going to.

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This whole dramatic DFD/some dude hates Raggi thing is pretty uncharacteristic for /osrg/ (chillest general on any board), but I'm kind of glad it happened, because I actually do like the Lichway better. I'm a big fan of both versions of DFD, but I really dig the backstory and ensemble cast Lichway has. You could have some great team-up-survival-horror shit with this.

>>50176617
That's a perfectly valid opinion and I might even be inclined to agree with you, especially if a more classic D&D adventure is preferred over the more avant-garde horror stuff that DFD tries to do.

It's just that that anon has come into these threads for the better part of a year at this point, reminding us that "Raggi is a hack". He never comes with any good criticism and really seems to just have a personal vendetta thing going with Raggi. At this point I'm pretty sick of it. Lots of people in these threads come with criticism against all kinds of retroclones and modules, but his posts are always a nuisance rather than informative and helpful.

What's a good location to steal for a homebase? Not counting classic modules like Keep on the Borderlands

>>50175879
Do you have a design document for that? I'm incredibly curious about this. Any pitfalls you came across so far?

>>50176790
Are you looking for a premade module or something?

Speaking of constructive criticism, or more like an observation really: some of Raggi's modules are a bit too centered at one particular gimmick, so once you're past the initial concept some problems arise. Like if you manage to get rid of The God That Crawls (and my players did), the game turns into a classic Monty Haul. And Weird New World is just an arctic sandbox preview with some encounters to steal. Death Love Doom feels like a shoutout to Nordic LARP and at some point someone will turn all the body horror and suffering into a joke. At least in my experience.

On the other hand, I really don't care much. It's trivially easy to build upon good ideas and Raggi does have good ideas, with top-notch execution sometimes (Tower of the Stargazer, Better Than Any Man imho)

I cannot find How to Host a Dungeon in the trove. Can anyone point out the folder?

>>50176790
Give them a bunch of home base possibilities. Go grab a bunch of small dungeons or make a few of your own, give them unique flavors, and put the idea in your group's mind that they can make a base out of one of these places.

Or, a multi-story building on a city's edge. Let them spend their adventuring money buying a perimeter wall, iron-barred holding cells in the basement, a library, a rooftop observation platform and telescope, a nice armory, a forge, etc. They'll love it.

>>50177096
Don't think it's there. It's trivially easy to google though.

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>>50177147
Rate my dungeon geometry, /osr/.

It's still super work in progress, didn't place the doors but hopefully you can tell where they should go.

Top floor is housing and rooms for a bunch of ancient wizards, bottom floor is a giant magic circle. Was one of these wizards' pet project, now abandoned and still infested by their weird shit.

>>50178198
Should the stairs be in the middle of the hall like that, blocking you from going around the ring? You don't normally mount stairs from the side.

>>50178261
>stairs into a wall
fucking wizards, man

Want to play some Basic. At an impasse though.

Labyrinth Lord and Basic Fantasy seem to be the two main choices. I know LL uses Race as a Class and BFRPG separates it, but I'm on the fence about which I want and why.

LL or BFRPG or some other third choice, /tg/?

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>>50164364
Alright, finished writing up the base rules. Let me know if there's any more I should add or anything to clarify. Units are next.

Is The Lichway in the trove?

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>>50179756

If it's not, I can post it. It's pretty cool, I can see why Raggi decided to do his own take on it.

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>>50179802

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>>50179811

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>>50179819

And hey, it's actually four pages long, not three. It's been a while since I looked at it.

>>50179802
Thank you friend

we need a new thread again

>>50178261
The idea is that there's enough space to move along the circuit corridor on level 2 once you walk down the stairs, but if you think it's not quite clear enough i'mma fix it so it's more obvious from the map

>>50179038
I never played BFRPG, but i've been running for a long time with LL and it has everything you want from Basic.
If race-as-class is something you don't like, grab Labyrinth Lord Advanced. It has rules for integrating AD&D races and classes into basic-compatible (and LL-basic-compatible) games.

File: thief skills, Moldvay Basic, failure reduced by one third.png (48KB, 802x590px) Image search: [Google]

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>>50179038
Let's see...

Thief skills start off higher (though still terrible) in BF, but they cross over around 7th level, after which LL skills are higher (LL's peak at 14th level, where they're all pretty much 99%, while BF's don't peak until 20th level, when they run the gamut from 73%, 83%, 88%, 93%, 95% and 99%). I'd say LL wins if you take all the levels into account, but since you're more likely to play at low levels, it's a bit closer to a toss-up. Still, thief skills are screwy all around, as even in BF, if you attempt something at 1st level, you may have a 1 in 4 chance to succeed.

Of course, it's been said that thief skills should be treated as saving throws in case you otherwise fail at your task, but this begs the question of what the primary determiner is. Ability checks are an okay fallback but not a very good primary method of resolution because a person who rolls high scores has such a huge advantage. Resolving things purely through description can be good (saying exactly where you poke and prod for the trap with your wooden pole, for instance), but I'm not sure that the thief percentages work very well with that (it seems like they should be more static and not going from terrible to virtually automatic, where it's almost a waste of time to describe what you're doing, since a roll will carry you through 99% of the time), and resolution purely through description only really works for things like traps and not, for instance, stealth or climbing.

But maybe you want to institute a primary 2-in-6 chance roll for everybody, with the thief skills being a saving throw on top of that. The pic shows the percentages you get if you combine these into a single roll (using Moldvay Basic's thief skill percentages as the basis).

But I've strayed a bit from the topic at hand...

File: Thief Skills, Alt (specialty + weakness) 2.png (64KB, 1567x803px) Image search: [Google]

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>>50181720
Or you could use a completely different skill system of some sort.

File: skill system, d12.png (58KB, 1030x1016px) Image search: [Google]

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>>50181741
Or something more rudimentary like this.

>>50181720
>>50179038
Anyway, continuing on with LL vs. BF...

LL gives clerics spells at 1st level (BF, like Basic, itself, does not) and is more generous when giving clerics spells per day. I'd say the point goes to BF here. Clerics gain levels quickly, can wear any armor, and are decent in combat, so they probably don't need a boost in the department of magic.

In terms of spells per day, the magic-user progressions in the two systems are much closer to the same. The only really significant difference is that, like Moldvay Basic, BF caps things at 6th level spells, while LL has 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells (it also has 7th level spells for clerics, while BF stops at 6th, and Moldvay Basic at 5th). I don't think high level magic-users need more levels of crazy-powerful shit, so this is a definite point in favor of BF, but you're pretty unlikely to have characters that are higher than 12th level, so it really doesn't matter much in the end.