/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>50122031
>Do you include actual people in your game?
I run mostly historical games, so I'm happy to have them there as set pieces, but not really as actual individuals.
With my penchant for the Victorian era, I'm trying to decide exactly what forces hold sway (if any) over good ol' Queen Vic herself. Or at least, what different group think may hold sway.

Diamond Orders have it as an ongoing debate as to whether her advocacy for abstention is the influence of the Excarchs in attempting to subdue an important part of the human condition, or the wisdom of the Oracles in supporting self-mastery and conquering one's Demons. Or whether that's all needlessly overthought humbug.

>>50122218
Fuck that noise. Victoria should be running a few conspiracies of her own. oWoD had her radically overhauling the Technocracy's mandates, but you.... you can have her hunting the darkness with a radically overhauled Order of the Garter!!!

>"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules." - E. Gary Gygax

>"Let's make this new edition as ass-tastic as we can." - OPP Development Team Co-ordinator

CoD has a lot of helpful hints, even if you play WoD. For example, I don't describe the fear a character is feeling, I just hand the player an obnoxious card with capital F "Fear" written on it (can't forget that Capitalisation, it allows for Trademarking Fucking Everything). Also, I don't resolve ghost stories through clever plot and careful pacing - I use a flowchart. I write pages and pages of crunch for every concievable possible scenario, because why make up a single roll on the fly with a flexible stat system when I can have an entire paragraph explaining the rule procedure when someone gets kicked in the genitals? I make the entire system boring and bland as batshit, removing all backstory and metaplot. Vampires? Appeared out of nowhere. Werewolves? Your guess is as good as mine. Finally, I've nerfed all the splats to make them as bland an depowered as possible, barely better than Mortal in nearly all cases. "But ST," my players cry, "I miss having a character who kicked ass!" I tell them to shut the fuck up, "playing a monster to discover what it means to be human" is so 90's, now we get to play a monster barely better than human pursuing wangsty personal motivations, to discover what it means to be a human who wasted nearly $30 on an OPP book.

>>50122618
Koffee and kek

>>50122397

All of tabletop RPG gaming is a long, peril filled timeline leading to the inevitable conclusion that the freeform RP players had it right all along.

>>50122397
>>50122618
Are you even trying?
If you think that Chronicles of Darkness is a complex rules system, you'd have to have played nothing but RISUS.

>Actually advocating for metaplot
Here's your
>(You)

>>50122928
>wanting metalpot is the same as wanting the oWoD convoluted metaplot

Not how it works. A well written and fleshed out meta plot only improves the game

>>50122967

But enough about wishing for Unicorns.

>>50123054
Eh, stuff like the erciyes fragments and wraith: the great war prove they can manage it if they try

>>50122618
>CoD has a lot of helpful hints, even if you play WoD. For example, I don't describe the fear a character is feeling, I just hand the player an obnoxious card with capital F "Fear" written on it (can't forget that Capitalisation, it allows for Trademarking Fucking Everything). Also, I don't resolve ghost stories through clever plot and careful pacing - I use a flowchart. I write pages and pages of crunch for every concievable possible scenario, because why make up a single roll on the fly with a flexible stat system when I can have an entire paragraph explaining the rule procedure when someone gets kicked in the genitals?

Oh thank god i though that i was the only one.

Do...do you wanna exchange flow charts sempai?

>>50122967
>I make the entire system boring and bland as batshit, removing all backstory and metaplot.
They were literally comparing nWoD unfavourably to oWoD, so yes, they seem to think that the metaplot was good.
Although frankly I've never seen any metaplot that was good. Shadowrun's is also garbage, and possibly worse than oWoD's. Shadowrun's is probably harder to ignore, too, since they make mechanical changes and give them narrative justification, as opposed to just tweaking the rules.

There's also Degenesis, which has a metaplot, and the whole second edition book is filled with what feels like "there's a story and a reason here, but ~it's a secret~ until future books".

Oh, and of course CthulhuTech's modules of "one of your players is captured and raped through GM fiat, and all the NPCs have an invincibility spell on them that takes 16 hours to cast"

>>50123172
They seem to think that removing the metaplot was a bad decision, not necessarily that the old one was perfect (I have never met a single person who's liked and accepted every single part of the old metaplot)

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Would you?

>>50123209
I'm not saying they think it was perfect, but they clearly liked it. No one complains about the decision to remove something they didn't like in the first place.

>>50123228
He could complain if he prefers some metaplot over none at all

>>50123084

True, I've just never seen a metaplot that was wholly good. Some are OK, I guess. AMP's isn't terrible.

Why would anyone complain about the lack of metaplot of NWoD.

Have you read the example character in mage? Would you wanna follow that bland matrix reject across books? Why?

>>50123355
>bland matrix reject
Who?
Also, Mage: The Awakening at least *does* have an ongoing plot with the characters. It's just not a "meta"plot because their actions don't affect the rest of the game. The Nemean and his actions in Boston didn't change what people could do in their own Boston chronicles, and it didn't rewrite the setting or throw factions into disarray.

>>50123390
Well technically neither did oWoD, since there's nothing stopping you from having Ravnos characters and plotlines by setting them before the well of nightmares

>>50123390
>lso, Mage: The Awakening at least *does* have an ongoing plot with the characters. It's just not a "meta"plot because their actions don't affect the rest of the game. The Nemean and his actions in Bost

The acathus from 1st edition core, zero or zeno or some edgy name like that.

>>50123414
>having Ravnos characters and plotlines by setting them before the well of nightmares

Or just ignoring the whole thing really. Why metaplot is so restrictive again? Unless they dont update the mechanical side.

NWoD players can are as retentive about "canon" as any OWoD one. Try to suggest a mechanic change or a new spin on an organization and they would quote the books as if that meant shit.

I have meet people who insist that per the "canon", in awakening silver ladder can dispose any city that dont have an ladder as an hierarch which is also false but whatever.

>>50123476
because cannon fags derail games all the time

in owod this meant whole organization and countries didn't make sense. World wide conspiracy just up fuck your local city plot. and in Nwod it just meant your city didn't make sense.

on what scale do you want your verisimilitude disruption?

>>50123417

Zeno, the guy whose cool cause he has a motorcycle, and that's why he's cool.

>>50123414
>>50123476
Yes, but it's quite a different situation when whole factions shift and change compared to... nothing changing for the broader game.
Ignoring the metaplot is hard because the supplements are all assuming you're following it. For instance, if you started out running a game with Masquerade 1e and played from 1991 to 2004 and chose to ignore the metaplot, you would basically be unable to use most supplements.

>>50123476
Not really. I've only seen people say someone's change is stupid, or pointing out that the impression they have of something that exists isn't accurate, not that they can't do it.
>I have meet people who insist that per the "canon", in awakening silver ladder can dispose any city that dont have an ladder as an hierarch which is also false but whatever.
You're probably talking about me, since I've said that a few times. It's not false. In the book they state that Silver Ladder doctrine is that any Consilium that doesn't have a Thearch as Heirarch or Councilor is not a valid Consilium, and should be over thrown.
I'm not saying that every city will have a Heirarch that is in the Silver Ladder. I'm just pointing out what their policy is.
I've actually had a city where the Ladder wasn't in charge. I made it that way specifically because the player was a Silver Ladder fangirl and wanted to fuck with her.

Pointing out how something is as the default doesn't mean that's how it is in every single city. That's sort of one of the points of the nWoD. Not everything is homogeneous. It's not about the canon. You can ignore that entirely if you wanted to. I know plenty of people who ignore the Heiromagus messianic death cult aspects of the Guardians.

>>50123568

Frankly i run game on local scale so wether the city or the country doesnt "make sense" is all the same.

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>>50123602
>It's not false
Not false, but I've heard people parrot your out-of-context comments, missing the crucial context.

The Ladder created the Consilium system, and their mystic practices are based around performing their duties within it.
If they're denied any ability to ensure that it is functioning as intended, then that's basically like stripping away the Guardian's masks, or forbidding the Mysterium from performing their rituals.

>>50123602
>Ignoring the metaplot is hard because the supplements are all assuming you're following it. For instance, if you started out running a game with Masquerade 1e and played from 1991 to 2004 and chose to ignore the metaplot, you would basically be unable to use most supplements.

How so? I ask because i started with mage and basically only used the supplements for crunchy bits and discarded any metaplot i though was retarded like the Masassah war or the avatar storm as written.

Did masquerade mechanics have anything to do with politics? Or who switches sides?

>>50123602
>You're probably talking about me, since I've said that a few times. It's not false. In the book they state that Silver Ladder doctrine is that any Consilium that doesn't have a Thearch as Heirarch or Councilor is not a valid Consilium, and should be over thrown.

I was talking about a face to face game, you usually game on Cordoba, Argentina?

>>50123602
>I know plenty of people who ignore the Heiromagus messianic death cult aspects of the Guardians

oh yes, all the time. I make a point that the Guardians who believes in magic jebus are the retards of the order.

But my point was that i meet lots of NWoD fans that as intolerant of anything not fitting the "canon" of the books as OWoD fans complaining that "in X years Z organization" wasnt functioning.

>>50123772
The context isn't really important, though. The Silver Ladder's position is that them being in charge is more important than the will of the people. That was essentially what the "theme" of that city was: That the Ladder there realized (after a big war) that being in charge didn't make them leaders, it just made them in charge.

>>50123782
>Did masquerade mechanics have anything to do with politics? Or who switches sides?
An entire clan was killed off and another clan changed sides.

And no, that wasn't me, then. But they're right, the Silver Ladder does say that.

I've frankly never met many people who say something MUST follow the canon. I've met people who find deviations stupid (I certainly hate people who try to throw Caine into Requiem), but not that they need to follow the canon.

>>50123976
>will of the people
Nobody in the Ladder should give half of a shit about the will of the people though.
What's what the principles of the Sage is about.

In the oWoD, can Antes go Rotscrechk as well?

>>50124568
>>Now you can say "I'm Swooning" and look up what Swooning does and keep track of it.
>This is in and of itself extra bookkeeping. Add on top of that the fact that you're dependent on tracking and then dumping your conditions if you want more than a couple of Beats at the end of a session...
Status effects already existed in the game. That's not a new thing. Giving them all names and then putting them in the back of the book together is new. But putting them all in one place (or on cards they want you to buy but probably no one will) means it's easier to understand. It's easier to look that up and keep track of it compared to flipping through to find out which power does what effect.
If I'm Dominated by also someone used Nightmare but also I'm under the effects of The Kiss, I don't need to look through all those sections of the book, I just need to know that I have Mesmerized, Swooning, and Spooked.
I also love that each of the Conditions has a way to gain Beats. It encourages you to actually play up the condition. I like carrot and stick gameplay that focuses on the carrot.

>>50124591
>>Or, alternately, having that card helps keep the actual bookkeeping to a minimum.
>Oh yes, I love having to buy extra feelies in order to keep track of what's going on in the session.
You don't need the actual cards. And it's better than having unnamed conditions. Because Conditions have always existed, they just haven't had names. As an example, I'm going to pull out whichever book is on the top of the stack and give examples:
Tear-Stained Boneyard makes you feel like you're drowning, giving a penalty to all actions
Phantasmal Boneyard gives a bonus to see through illusions (and many others give simple bonuses like that as well)
Every Curse Manifestation is really just a Condition.
Although, wow, Geist's powers are so lame. So many of them are just bonuses and penalties. There's not really even anything like "sleep" or something.
Honestly, 2e is a lot more flavourful. The Beat and Resolution of the Conditions really helps add narrative to them.

>>I actually find mechanical structure to help the narrative.
>I'm sorry your imagination is broken and you can't include things in your narrative unless there are clear, concrete dice bonuses and penalties that the game has predefined for you involved.
My imagination is perfectly fine. I'd like the game to be imaginative. If you would prefer a bland game where there's nothing that adds mechanical weight to the narrative and everything is based on how well you can emote without any real emotional resonance there's always OSR. But me, I'd rather games that make one situation feel different from another situation in a more tactile way. I don't play freeform games because I *want* some sort of structure that adds mechanical weight to the narrative. Not because I "need" it due to a lack of creativity.

>>50124864

>My imagination is perfectly fine. I'd like the game to be imaginative. If you would prefer a bland game where there's nothing that adds mechanical weight to the narrative and everything is based on how well you can emote without any real emotional resonance there's always OSR.

Someone hasn't played any of the Sine Nomine games, or Beyond the Wall.

Either way, it all comes down to game playstyle and philosophy. "Emotional resonance" is something that comes only from the immersive and social aspects of the game, and exactly what will break that immersion will differ from gamer to gamer. For some folks, it's having things come down to a simple binary roll, and for others it's having a more mechanically rigorous structute. There's no real silver bullet to achieving it.

CofD 2e's system is in a very strange position where it's in the middle of the spectrum, so it can turn off both sides pretty easily, depending on the circumstances. Ultimately I think it's better but the system's still nothing to write home about.

>>50125040
Being in the middle of the spectrum is where I like it. I don't like many other games because they're either too crunchy or not crunchy enough. I actually am surprised I like CofD 2e, because it's more to it, but it's a very narrative It's all those systems I like in theory, but with enough meat to satisfy me.

And, like I said, for people who *don't* like emotionally resonant mechanics, there's always OSR. Or GURPS, which will always feel like GURPS.

>>50125040
it's mostly towards how the ST handles it. Conditions / Beats are like suppose to be the rewards for indulging into the narrative. likewise they incentivizes player to play in character.

STs can over tax the system without meaning too, by over loading the character with conditions. Like pulling the scene into too making directions.

They're like suppose to be an emotional burden to overcome in the scene and a reminder of previous scenes. Their like hitpoints in that manner. although the previous monster/rooms have been defeated, and out of mind; you're still down hitpoints

thats just my way to look at it

>>50125237

>And, like I said, for people who *don't* like emotionally resonant mechanics, there's always OSR.

Again, something is only "emotionally resonant" on a personal or social level, when a player feels immersed. The mechanics themselves can attempt to encourage this, but that doesn't make the actual mechanics "emotionally resonant". You're attaching a subjective quality to some pretty standard narrative mechanics.

>>50125413
Apply what this guy is saying to roleplaying games
https://youtu.be/2bsxQZ5JDec
https://youtu.be/fgIeBgLO6rY
https://youtu.be/XfFteTrAvZw
https://youtu.be/PmkDLZePGPE

I wish there were some Youtube channels like this, but for roleplaying games.

>>50125468
Actually that last one isn't important, I should have rewatched it before linking it.

https://youtu.be/xBN3R0m31bA

>>50122658

Thanks, that's pretty funny.

>You monster. I found the artist and now I'll waste the next half hour of my finite life looking at stupid comic strips.

>>50123414

There's nothing stopping you from having Ravnos *after* the Week of Nightmares either. They just wouldn't have been likely (read, basically zero percent chance of survival) to exist if they were anywhere near India at the time of Zapathasura's awakening and/or death.

If they were just a regular Ravnos in the Americas (and there are quite a lot of them there) the biggest issue is when two or more Ravnos meet up and go "ARGARGLE, DRINK YOUR BLOOD!" at each other.

While the Ravnos were absolutely decimated in comparison to what their numbers *used* to be, there's still a few members of the clan left. A little over a hundred members was the number given in "Time of Thin Blood". The Week of Nightmares happened in 1999 according to the Revised timeline (if you're following the 20th Anniversary timeline, the Week of Nightmares happen whenever the Storyteller wants it to happen). So, Gehenna in Revised takes place in 2004.

If you're dead-set on following the old Revised timeline (for whatever ungodly reason) that's still five years or so where the Ravnos are free to Embrace childer again (which they are likely to do, just like any other clan/bloodline are likely to start embracing again), a perfect time in which to craft various Ravnos plothooks and chronicles, or even new player characters.

Of course, the elders of the clan are completely gone. Kaput. Dead and buried.

>>50123602

The Ladder's test for legitimate Consilia is that there's a heirarch *or* Councillor. They're acbsolutely fine with a Heirarch from a different Order, as long as one or more Councillors is a thearch.

In some Consilia, the Heirarch is strictly just a chairperson and moderator, and the Councillors make the actual decisions.

>>50122928
>>50122397
Gary Gygax's spin on D&D and nwod are both mechanically complicated, the former far moreso than the latter, primarily due to initiative etc. Though AD&D inits are still far less complex than, say, Exalted 2e inits.

>>50123172
owod fan here. Metaplot is indeed dunmnb, and very VERY intrusive, on the order of "your character no longer exists! STs, please, really, don't let players get away with saving their characters -- it detracts from the wangst of the setting!"

It does however impart ENERGY to the setting. Its like a comic book franchise.

>>50124481

Of course. An ante is a """""""""""""""normal"""""""""""""""" vampire with blood pool: 100/20 (or whatever), a fuckhuge amount of maturation points, and level 10 disciplines whose power is PLOT, ie whatever the ST decides. But its safe to say very few antes have a level 10 power pertaining to resisting rotz.

>>50127284
Hey Dave, can you save a Sleeper from quiescence by erasing the memories of Magic from his mind before quiescence sets in at the end of the scene?

Are Hidden anything in particular? I for the life of me cannot figure out why they'd have 5/5/5 stats, 15 health and not being prone to moving on when they kill their killers, are they strictly new for Hunter?

Walkers are directly equated to Risen in Hunter: Walking Dead and shamblers could be any number of things, though a hive mind of spectres using Fetter Rape strikes me as the most likely.

Also are Hekatonkhire statted anywhere?

>>50127284
>any Consilium that doesn't have a Thearch as Heirarch or Councilor is not a valid Consilium
I said that, Dave :V

>>50127454
I have never felt that my games needed to be imparted "energy" from an external source.

>>50123602
>if you started out running a game with Masquerade 1e and played from 1991 to 2004 and chose to ignore the metaplot, you would basically be unable to use most supplements.

What utter horseshit. I know it can be done, because I've done it. It's easy. Metaplot didn't affect the Sabbat books in 2nd Ed, or any of the 2nd Ed supplements except "Under a Blood Red Moon" and the shift from Chicago 1 to Chicago 2. Using the Revised books just meant ignoring the Time of Thin Blood, The Red Sign, any other pre-packaged "on rails" adventures, The Week of Nightmares and it's fallout, as well as a heap of City By Night books you wouldn't have used anyway. Keep the Gangrel, the Ravnos and the Tremere Antitribu.

Fucking done.

>>50123976
>An entire clan was killed off
Of which mechanics play no part, and can be ignored.

> and another clan changed sides.
Of which mechanics played no part, and can be ignored.

You are zero for two, pal.

>>50123976
the metaplot was hokey, intrusive, and extremely, senselessly aggressive, as well as equating Tremere antitribu players to players of The Last Bunyip or The Last White Howler

it did not however prevent you from ignoring it, only tried to use shame tactics on you

>>50128302
>only tried to use shame tactics on you

Pffft. Please. I'm about as likely to take hollow judgements in a RPG manual as seriously as a maniac street preacher. White Wolf has always been about the idiotic assertions people are "playing it wrong". Phil "Satyros" Brucato has a poke in Mage 20th at people who (I shit you not) have the AUDACITY to eat takeaway franchise pizza at their sessions instead of ordering ecologically sustainable small business take-out, or cooking a large meal for four to five people. This is the same book where he complains there wasn't enough room for Sorcerers, despite being 200,000 words and the size of the Greater Chicago Phonebook... maybe if he hadn't masturbated thought-bubbles endlessly there'd be room for actual content, but that would require management to reign in the excesses of a bunch of old fucks that need rubber wallpaper and thorazine more than a paid job

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I've been through the whole Mage 2E book and still don't know how Goetia work. They live in the Astral Realms and represent concepts, okay. What makes them different from spirits?
If I kill a Goetia in my Oneiros, do I lose that aspect of my personality?
What exactly signifies a different "rank" between Goetia? Is it more dependent on the idea's popularity, or its depth in the culture?
Can there be multiple Goetia of the same concept? Or is it more like "whoops, someone already took Ronald McDonald as a Familiar, too bad"
I suppose there's a book somewhere that describes Goetia in detail, but they got hardly anything compared to ghosts and spirits in the core book.

>>50128446
Goetia were by far my favorite element in 1e, I wonder if they're any good in 2e.

>>50128446
Goetia are native to the Astral, Spirits are native to the Shadow.
Goetia are maintained by their realm in and of itself, while Spirits are forced into a semi-predatory ecosystem.
If you kill a Goetia in your Oneiros, it might influence your mind slightly, but it'll reform in time, much like a Spirit. If you excise it from your head though (by summoning it to the Fallen world) then that will influence your personality.
Goetia Rank is about the concept's pertinence. So the Astral Realm of people's perception of some local mayor will be fairly small. But the realm of McDonalds? That's going to have a crazy powerful fucking Goetia in it.
There can be MANY Goetia of the same concept.

Goeita are explained quite nicely in 1e's book Summoners.
Which it quite honestly a book EVERYONE needs to read.
It's fantastic.

>>50128395
What the fuck.

Its good to know that the prime guy behind Mage is... exactly the stereotypical author I envisioned.

>>50128395
>Phil "Satyros" Brucato has a poke in Mage 20th at people who (I shit you not) have the AUDACITY to eat takeaway franchise pizza at their sessions instead of ordering ecologically sustainable small business take-out, or cooking a large meal for four to five people.

Wut? Where is this?

>>50128395
>Phil "Satyros" Brucato has a poke in Mage 20th at people who (I shit you not) have the AUDACITY to eat takeaway franchise pizza at their sessions instead of ordering ecologically sustainable small business take-out, or cooking a large meal for four to five people.

Wut? Where is this shit?

>>50128587
>>50128603

Chapter 7, Telling the Story:
>Many gaming groups favor a potluck approach, with the members all bringing something to the table. Others pool their money and pitch in for a meal prepared by someone else. Whatever you do, please buy smart, eat healthy, and give your hard-earned cash to ethically-run local businesses whenever possible.

and,

>Even so, it’s a good idea to get the feast out of the way before your game begins. The rarified reaches of the Astral Realms may be hard to evoke when the scent of pizza’s in the air. [...] However appropriate the meal, though, it’s best to get the eating out of the way before your game begins. That way, the attention’s on you, not on the last piece of pizza congealing in its own grease.

And finally, we have this arrogant little gem;

>Contrary to popular belief, you don’t need to be rich or have a big house in order to set up a good gaming space

Yes! Popular belief in /tg/ is that regardless of whether you're playing Fighting Fantasy or FATAL, it *needs* to happen in your sprawling mansion on your family's estates. That's why we're all fabulously rich, and totally not playing in sheds and basements.

Brucato is an overprivileged piece of shit, who assumes he's writing RPG's for toff fuckers with cash to burn.

Sure explains those "Deluxe" editions, doesn't it?

> /me hums "Do You Hear The People Sing" and downloads M20 supplements off MEGA

>>50128446
>What makes them different from spirits?
They are literally just mind-spirits. It's not a complicated thing at all.
>What exactly signifies a different "rank" between Goetia? Is it more dependent on the idea's popularity, or its depth in the culture?
There is literally a sidebar on this very topic.

>>50128578
Summoners has some of the spookiest shit of any book.

>>50128916
You sound whiny and hateful, to be honest. How do you stand interacting with other people if you consider those quotes to be horrible slights on your very essence?

>>50129175
>You sound whiny and hateful, to be honest.
Well, if *I'm* being perfectly honest, I don't give a fuck what you think of me. You're the little bitch that got snooty because "durrr, goetia r juss mind-spirits, u is a dumbhead" - so you understood it and someone else didn't, you want a fucking gold star?

Also,
>whiny and hateful
4chan, I'm home.

>How do you stand interacting with other people if you consider those quotes to be horrible slights on your very essence?

I'll let you in on a little secret, I don't waste time socialising with Phil Brucato or people that shit me to tears. The only reason I'm even speaking to you is because it amuses me.

>>50129175
Go fellate Phil Brucato some more.

>>50129243
Man, I don't even care about the guy, I just find people wanking about how terrible he is to be overblown whiny bullshit. No one made you buy his game.

>>50129227
So, wait, you felt I was getting snooty, but you totally weren't in your post (or this one)? Seems pretty arbitrary.

>>50128916
>/me hums "Do You Hear The People Sing" and downloads M20 supplements off MEGA
So you're just as full-of-yourself and self-righteous as Brucato, then.

>>50129175
I thought it was a pretty funny review. Brucato is a totally ridiculous man after all. Better to embrace the stupid in RPGs than to be embarrassed of it.

And lets face it, the Brucato outlook on life is perfect for Mage.

>>50129227
>The only reason I'm even speaking to you is because it amuses me.

>*sheathes katana, tips fedora dismissively*

>>50125468
>>50125526

Video games aren't roleplaying games, and a lot of their theories and structures don't crossover as well as one might expect. Mechanics in a video game can be said to be emotionally resonant because even the most open video game is ultimately going to provide a controlled, crafted experience to a player. This is enhanced by storytelling techniques from film or television, so video games get the best of both worlds: influences from active and passive medias to encourage immersion and emotional reaction.

RPGs are different from the very beginning: The rulebook is not actually the game. The rulebook is the blueprints for the game, and it is the mixture of improvisation and social contract that is the missing component to create the impact of the gaming experience. Immersion will always be more difficult, but in exchange its versatility goes beyond anything a video game could achieve at the moment. Mechanics can arbitrate disputes and encourage the intended narrative of play, but emotional impact cannot to ascribed to them, because getting the player to feel is the referee and the player's job.

>>50129175

Tone of the poster aside, RPG documents are always based on hard word count limits. Being economical with them is crucial, so the many asides that Brucato makes is actively making less room for more relevant content. It all comes off as padding, and it should have been cut.

>>50127805
He can be confirming what you say rather then saying your wrong.

>>50128916
>Many gaming groups favor a potluck approach, with the members all bringing something to the table. Others pool their money and pitch in for a meal prepared by someone else. Whatever you do, please buy smart, eat healthy, and give your hard-earned cash to ethically-run local businesses whenever possible.
Kek. Shouldn't be it also vegan only?
>However appropriate the meal, though, it’s best to get the eating out of the way before your game begins. That way, the attention’s on you, not on the last piece of pizza congealing in its own grease.
Geez, thanks for advice, mum.

>>50124805
>I also love that each of the Conditions has a way to gain Beats. It encourages you to actually play up the condition.
It does the opposite of that, actually. You get absolutely no reward for playing up the condition - you get the reward for REMOVING the Condition.
>I like carrot and stick gameplay that focuses on the carrot.
I have seen the idea behind conditions handled so much better in multiple different game systems that the way ChroD does it feels much more like a stick.

>>50126962
>While the Ravnos were absolutely decimated in comparison to what their numbers *used* to be, there's still a few members of the clan left. A little over a hundred members was the number given in "Time of Thin Blood". The Week of Nightmares happened in 1999 according to the Revised timeline (if you're following the 20th Anniversary timeline, the Week of Nightmares happen whenever the Storyteller wants it to happen). So, Gehenna in Revised takes place in 2004.
Can post-Zapathasura Ravnos still Embrace?

>>50128916
I wouldn't have much of an issue with this (it just comes off as silly on its own, honestly) if he didn't then turn around and complain that he DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH WORDCOUNT for other things he wanted to include.

Why doesn't OPP have fucking editors?

>>50129257
>Man, I don't even care about the guy, I just find people wanking about how terrible he is to be overblown whiny bullshit. No one made you buy his game.

Maybe we're pissed because it was supposed to be a 20th anniversary edition, a love letter to the fans and all that? What we got was a badly edited mish-mash of unworkable garbage, with a heap of concepts changed for no good reason (the Christians are right, now, did you know?). The rules are broken up, hard to read, full of irrelevant rants on whatever the author is pissed off about this hour, they repeat for no good reason and are often contradictory. Some young game designer could have gotten the job and done a better product by 150%, culled page upon page of unnecessary bloat and made the book actually worth the money. But no, we get this POS. Even better, we get people like you, apologists for incompetence and mediocrity.

M20's How Do I Do That? should be held accountable at the Hague. What a complete misnomer, more like How Do I Confuse My Players?

But sure, pretend that everything OPP touches is pure gold. I'd hate to contradict a delusional schizophrenic.

>>50129391
>(the Christians are right, now, did you know?)
Wait, what?

How does that even jive with consensual reality?

>>50129270
Well, I didn't look down on anyone for eating pizza, criticise people for not using "zie and zir", make assumptions about everyone living in splendour, hobble the concept of Paradigm until literally everyone can cast magic using Yoga and spend page upon page lecturing people about the evils of modern technology while I typed 200,000 words into a laptop's word processor, so....

>Daddy, what's a false equivalency?

>>50123172
>Shadowrun's is also garbage, and possibly worse than oWoD's.
It's not just possible; it DEFINITELY is.

>>50129286
I still don't understand why you all get so triggered over fedoras. It's a fucking hat. Do you have any idea how pathetic you sound when you dish shit on people over a fucking hat? Grow up and join the real world, where people worry about real problems.

Fedora. Christ....

>>50129428
No, but you're literally equating yourself to a goddamn freedom-fighting revolutionary martyr for pirating an RPG book because you think the guy who wrote it is a tool.

I'd say that's taking yourself as seriously as Brucato does.

>>50129450
Are you new enough that you don't understand how memes work? They're not literally attacking the hat.

Never played either of the Mage games, so I don't know; are you guys always as crazy as you seem to always be in here?

>>50129338
Why wouldn't they? Bloodlines don't have antes, and they get by just fine.

>>50129378
This, this, god almighty, a thousand times this.

>>50129283
I know. That's why I'm so confused as to why people playing Mage hate the guy who thinks he is one. I mean, that poster made it out like he was personally being insulted. The tone of Dudes of Legend is more insulting, judging by those quotes.

>>50129471

Mage fans are prone to fighting at the drop of a hat. It has been this way for over twenty years.

>>50129290
They don't cross over perfectly, but they still cross over. I was tired last night and throwing an example of what I meant before going to bed. Mechanics in a roleplaying game can very much be emotionally resonant. It's all about adding mechanical weight to the narrative. Dogs in the Vineyard for instance would not work as well with a different system. The system it has very strongly reinforces the themes of the game. The same with Monsterheart's String economy. There are even a lot of Conditions in CofD that really help sell the tone. The Humanity system in Vampire is also a good one, in that when you do things that are inhuman--whether positive or negative--you lose Humanity, and everything is tied to Humanity. There are also the little carrots, like how interacting with your Touchstone gives a point of Willpower.

While there is no computer system running a roleplaying game, it's ridiculous to say that the book and the game presented in it isn't the system, and isn't something you can judge. You can tell me that it's up to the ST to get players to have emotions, but my point is that some games make that a hell of a lot easier. Again, I point to Dogs in the Vineyard. That system is meant to make you feel like you're pressed into backing down or risking bigger and bigger Fallout to double down and press on. And it does that by making physical and verbal battles more or less equivalent.

Going back to the Conditions and Willpower gains, those get people to care about things, even just a little, because there are mechanics tied to them. There's something on a page to give a mechanical weight to your action. And for things like Morality, there's a mechanical penalty for doing bad things. That gives meaning beyond just how well you roleplay.

Also, perhaps--just perhaps--Brucato felt those asides were important to the tone of the game.

>>50129474
Then I'm not sure why "there are only 100 of them left" is such an issue. They can refresh their numbers, and they won't even have an Ante breathing down their necks waiting to eat them all, because that guy has already been killed.

I mean, the lowest-generation Ravnos in the world are gonna be like, 8th gen, but aside from that they should be fine. Just have those guys do the embracing instead of their childer and grandchilder.

>>50129417
It fits in with the Rules section on spirits. First, the caveat;
>We’re not here to tell you how to believe or to force a religion (or the lack of one) down your throat. Maybe all spirits really are aliens or angels or demons or archetypes. That’s your call to make, not ours.

Ok so far. Then we get told that there are only 3 truly supreme Celstines; The Essential Divinity (source of all heavenly goodness), The Godhead (personified God or Gods) and The Adversary (literally an old Christian term for Satan, and yes, evil incarnate).

So yeah, fuck the Triat, fuck 20 years of gameplay, There Is But One God and Brucato is His Prophet.

>>50129509
Dudes of Legend is written with irony. Brucato seems to be woefully deficient in that area.

>>50129467
Oh, I understand memes just fine; a series of inside jokes that rely on repetition in order to make people laugh. The problem is, "tips fedora" isn't funny, it's just heaping shit on a particular group of people who think they're stylish, and saying "look at me! I'm better than him because I don't wear a hat!"

When I was 16, people got the same way over pork pie hats. Maybe y'all just need to mature a little.

>>50129538
Vampires are thrown into YUUUUGE fits of despair and decline over being dwindled to almost nothing left, even though, as you say, nothing ***directly*** controls their population in VtM.

But I think Ravnos, after their antediluvian was gnarmed, suffered some sort of vague frenzy on sight rule with regards to each other.

>>50129378
>Why doesn't OPP have fucking editors?

Because that would require quality control, we cant have that and OPP/WW remain the same, wouldnt we?

>>50129592
So they could Embrace, but then they'd immediately devour the childe?

>>50129454
Wow. You are actually so high on the Aspergers spectrum that you can no longer tell when someone is trying to make a joke that fits with the rest of the post. I'm not even going to insult you, I genuinely feel sorry for you. The internet must be a scary place when you can't perceive people's intentions.

>>50129594
It would also have saved us the clusterfuck that was the Beast Kickstarter.

of course, the Beast Kickstarter made OPP 115 grand, so why would they change it?

>>50129565
how many fucking Satans does owod need?

I don't find Brucato's triat any more or less retarded than the stasis/dynamism/entropy one but its still dumb.

>>50129591
As the person who made the post; no, I was using the katana-and-fedora as convenient shorthand for the sort of person I was talking about.

File: Wizard Fedora.png (113KB, 442x423px) Image search: [Google]

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>Oh, I understand memes just fine; a series of inside jokes that rely on repetition in order to make people laugh. The problem is, "tips fedora" isn't funny, it's just heaping shit on a particular group of people who think they're stylish, and saying "look at me! I'm better than him because I don't wear a hat!"

>When I was 16, people got the same way over pork pie hats. Maybe y'all just need to mature a little.

>>50129616
>You are actually so high on the Aspergers spectrum that you can no longer tell when someone is trying to make a joke that fits with the rest of the post.
Maybe your jokes are just bad.

>>50129471
It's just Fan-Rage. It's healthy for us to vent, it stops incidents like when all those Warhammer 40K fans went troppo and sent death threats to Matt Ward over the Necrons teaming up with the Blood Angels. We throw insults at each other like crumpled balls of paper until we get bored and wander off. No-one gets hurt, and if anyone gets really genuinely pissed off they put down their device and go do something else... or just fap to porn.

>>50129652
>when all those Warhammer 40K fans went troppo and sent death threats to Matt Ward over the Necrons teaming up with the Blood Angels.
Fucking what?

Jesus people, it's little plastic toys that pretend-fight.

Hell, taking 40k seriously in the first place is missing the point of the setting, leaving aside that it's a silly table game to begin with.

>>50129603
I don't recall any rules for it. It was also a softer extermination than, say, the Tremere antitribu, which was VERY aggressively presented.

For the Ravnos, I don't think they had rules for their extinction, just that, yeah, that's what happened.

I think its safe to say their clan as a whole is totally, irrevocably doomed (unless they have their Beasts amputated first, which is essentially the same result) but I would let PCs and any NPC they're super attached to survive with any form of half clever solution.

I generally don't suggest taking Gehenna/End Times stuff for owod too literally, simply because of how some clan dooms are "you're irrevocably fucked, game over" and how Thaumaturgy 3 apparently really does let you completely, canonically laugh off Wormwood.

>>50129297
He put emphasis on the *or*, so I assume he thought I didn't.

>>50129318
The Resolution of most every Condition is going to be something related to that Condition's narrative aspects. Being so Spooked that you go off and investigate, being so Shaken by what you found that you failed a roll, being so Lethargic that you sleep all day, being so Guilty you confess.
Many Conditions also have a situation in which the Condition doesn't go away, but you still gain a Beat. Losing Integrity to your Vice because you're Soulless, being Victimized because you're a Thrall, forsaking your supernatural group responsibilities to hang out with your BFF Beast due to Family Ties, being so Delusional that you adhere to a paranoid belief...
Although I will admit that looking through Beast (the PDF I had open today), there's a lot of Conditions where the Resolution really should be the Beat.

>I have seen the idea behind conditions handled so much better in multiple different game systems that the way ChroD does it feels much more like a stick.
Give me some examples, then. It's basically exchanging Fate Points/Bennies/Hero Points for Experience, which is something I find novel and interesting.

>>50129620
An editor wouldn't have helped that, and the Beast Kickstarter was like an anti-clusterfuck. They heard the complaints and fixed the game. Or at least the problems it was feasible to fix. They could have avoided other problems with more open development.

>>50129594
>>50129378
>>50129495
>>50129391
>Maybe we're pissed because it was supposed to be a 20th anniversary edition, a love letter to the fans and all that?
>But sure, pretend that everything OPP touches is pure gold. I'd hate to contradict a delusional schizophrenic.
Honestly it sounds like you got exactly what you were asking for, but regret asking for it.

>>50129428
No, you just look down on people for other things.

>>50129509
>that poster made it out like he was personally being insulted.

So if you bought a book that was utter shit and hyped to cloud nine, you wouldn't ever complain or get angry?

>>50129522
What was the mechanical weight and emotional resonance behind beating all over the big three with a nerf bat?

>>50129687
Well I can't say for sure but that's how i read it.

>>50129538
A bit of Diablerie and even the 8th Generation part won't be an issue :D

>>50129616
>a joke that fits with the rest of the post.
Are you so incompetent that you can't tell that's sort of the point? You sound full of yourself and whiny. Your self-aggrandizing joke doesn't help that.

>>50129591
It has nothing to do with wearing or not wearing a hate, it has to do with the hat being associated with a particular type of person, similar to "neckbeard", or coloured hair, or flannel shirts, or long hair.

>>50129474
Aren't Bloodlines just offshoots of the clans? I mean, Ventrue Antitribu are just Ventrue. Aren't Nagaraja and so on still just offshoots of other clans that could trace their lineage back to the Antediluvians and Caine the same as anyone else?

>>50129592
>some sort of vague frenzy on sight rule

Nope.

Anyone notice how DtF has perhaps the most variable canon around of any of the game lines?

Specifically:

1. The Time of Judgment fiction portrays Lucifer as NOT knowing who created the hunters.
2. Days of Fire portrays Lucifer as claiming that the last two angels sent them.
3. One of the Time of Judgment scenarios portrays (from the out of character narrative perspective) Lucifer as having sent them.

>>50129693
>>50129570
Seemed pretty ironic to me, and, no, I don't really feel like Mage 20 is anything to get pissy about, because every time someone links something, it looks like every other oWoD book I've seen. Except more deluxe.

>>50129687
>An editor wouldn't have helped that, and the Beast Kickstarter was like an anti-clusterfuck. They heard the complaints and fixed the game. Or at least the problems it was feasible to fix. They could have avoided other problems with more open development.
Having an editor would have prevented the shitty first draft from appearing for public viewing in the first place, and they could have spent time building hype and succeeding more instead of doing a hasty rewrite of the entire book (which kind of falls apart after the first chapter).

File: woodfaceChicken.jpg (135KB, 500x667px)

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>>50129391
Not OPP fault that one was all Phil

>>50129634
By saying you were better than them.
By speaking derisively about people wearing fedoras.
Go back to 1st grade, kid.

>>50129734
>Nope

You can't just say "Nope," the books definitely portrayed the surviving Ravnos as diablerizing each other, but no real explanation was ever provided.

>>50129637
>>50129591
Wait. When the fuck were pork pie hats in vogue that you were making fun of them at 16?

>>50129687
>Give me some examples, then. It's basically exchanging Fate Points/Bennies/Hero Points for Experience, which is something I find novel and interesting.
Tying the reward to getting rid of the Condition is a mistake. Tying the reward to your character-advancement resource is a BIG mistake.

If it was "play it up for bonus dice or a willpower refresh" or something it'd be fine.

>>50129645
maybe... but given the high rate of neckbeard Aspergers on this site, let us err on the side of caution

>>50129674
>how Thaumaturgy 3 apparently really does let you completely, canonically laugh off Wormwood.
Hang on, what?

>>50129687
>Honestly it sounds like you got exactly what you were asking for, but regret asking for it.

I wanted a comprehensive compilation of past material; not a scrap-book collage of anti-modernistic rants, sloppy layout, bad editing, contradictory rules and the goddamn Purple Paradigm. I wanted a good product. Why are you so fucking retarded that this concept confuses you? Were you seriously shortchanged on the number of grandparents you have, or something?

>>50129712
What?

>>50129741
Well, the Kickstarter draft was the pre-edited copy anyway, so that wouldn't have changed anything. And it was not the first draft, it was probably the third draft, it's just that many people didn't like it.
I feel like your understanding of both the Beast situation *and* how the whole process works is sort of lacking.

>>50129757
Why do you feel it was a mistake. You can't just say that without explanation, because I like that aspect. So clearly I don't think it was a mistake. As I pointed out, saying that you get rewarded simply for getting rid of the condition is misleading.

>>50129797
You wanted a Deluxe 20th Anniversary Edition of Mage: The Ascension.
You got a book that is exactly that.

>>50129769
Wormwood's effects are that everyone loses generation until they all become 15th (or 13th, or 14th, can't remember) gen schlups. Pretty bad, right?

...but it explicitly, and completely nonchalantly, states that the most obvious cure for the problem, Thaumaturgy 3, works fine and even lets you lower your gen to 3rd. Tremere/Saulot gives no fucks about that angle, though him becoming a lobotomized vohzd spontaneously turns out to be a problem...

>>50129797
>I wanted a comprehensive compilation of past material
I think the only 20th anniversary book that was actually this was the original V20 corebook.

>>50129748
It's a shorthand.

Do you consider yourself personally slighted because you wear a fedora or something?

>>50129726
>Are you so incompetent that you can't tell that's sort of the point?
You read it here folks, the guy fully admits his position on the spectrum.

>>50129823
I found WtA20 very useful for that.
Wraith doesn't have much material to compile in the first place, so I'm glad they're expanding everything massively as well.

>>50129743
>Not OPP fault that one was all Phil

Actually no, its the OPP fault too. As a company that put their name on the book they should have an editor examine the book before printing it and saying

"Phil, what the shit is this? Nobody cares about your views on gamer food habits. CUT THAT SHIT"

Or alternatively give him 10k more wordcount to fill that he actually has and knowing that he will wast 15k in rambling and cut it without his knowledge.

>>50129726
>It has nothing to do with wearing or not wearing a hate, it has to do with the hat being associated with a particular type of person

Oh, so you're BETTER than them, because they are a "Certain Sort of Person"? People like you used to complain about black people getting served in post offices.

>>50129845
Rants about western decadence written by decadent westerners is ***THE*** trademark of Mage and Werewolf products, dude.

>>50129848
>making fun of people with shit fashion taste is the same as discriminating against blacks

Uh oh, the sperg's gotten out of his cage again

>>50129872
You know who else discriminated against Spergs? H****r.

>>50129855
>Rants about western decadence written by decadent westerners is ***THE*** trademark of Mage and Werewolf products, dude.

I meant direct ranting, not the analogy ranting like Pentex = Murica corporation

>>50129726
>Aren't Bloodlines just offshoots of the clans?

Yes and no. The Giovanni were a bloodline until they nommed the Cappadocians, at which point they were considered a Clan. The Capps then re-emerged as the Harbringers of Skulls, but were considered a bloodline. In Dark Ages, the Baali got big enough to be considered a Clan, despite not having a clear story on who or what started them. Let's not even get started on the Brujah / True Brujah thing.

The whole thing reminds me of a quote from the 4400, "cults are what the big religions call the little guys". Bloodlines seem to be small groups, while Clans hold more political power.

>>50129726
>Nagaraja

They didn't even get embraced properly, they just slit their throats and jumped in a vat of pure Ravnos juice. Their clan founder was a ritual knife.

>>50129738
>Anyone notice how DtF has perhaps the most variable canon around of any of the game lines?

You mean, other than the assertion that the Jews, Muslims and Christians were right, and other religions shouldn't even exist?

>>50129743
>Not OPP fault that one was all Phil

If OPP hired him, and the editor, the fault lies with all three. And they did, so it does. It's not Phil Brucato Productions, it's Onyx Path Productions. There's meant to be some oversight, for Christ's sake.

>>50129750
Where? Where does it say that? On Page XX, next to the full rules for Vicissitude, I'll bet.

>>50129952

I imagine is a situation in which Phil gets very very upset and hides himself in the closet when the editor points out how shitty his draft is. So they gottan print it anyway for him to come out.

>>50129829
People aren't on the autistic spectrum just for finding you whiny. I would actually imagine that people in the deep, cartoonish end of the spectrum that you seem to think everyone is on would find you less whiny.

>>50129845
Have you even read a Mage book? Like, shit, I hate oWoD and don't like it and even I know that kind of shit is all over every book of theirs I've seen.

You got what you asked for, but didn't ask for what you wanted.

>>50129848
Complaining about a person for the things that they do or their beliefs is not the same as discriminating against ethnic groups. I'll also complain about Republicans, religious people, Neoliberals, fans of trash anime like Keijo!!!!!, people who feel criticism of their titty ninja games is censorship, capitalism apologists, people who write Tumblr/Twitter shitpost bots, Youtube antifeminists that call themselves Rational™, people who think Michael Bay is a great filmmaker, and people who compare mocking a strawman caricature of a whiny egotistical nerd to literal fucking real world discrimination. Also, as an aside, people who use insults like "autistic" or "sperg" on the internet, but I already know that's a battle I'm not going to win.

>>50129522

They do crossover. That doesn't mean that you chose an area where they crossover well. You bring up Monsterhearts and Dogs in the Vineyard (games I don't think you seem to have actually played), but you don't being up the game theories that led to their existance, and why the idea of "emotionally resonant mechanics" as presented in the YouTube videos you linked doesn't really apply to RPGs because of those theories.

System matters, but the game is not the system. While the system can be judged on its own merits on how it can arbitrate rules and encourage game play, the actual game does not exist until players and referees interact with their PCs and NPCs. This is why we all know that White Room testing is only effective to a certain extent.

The issue here is that you're taking mechanics that have an objective purpose, that being achieving narrative and genre consistency, and applying a subjective purpose that only exists within the people. It's a trap that many people fall into.

"Making it easier" is not the same as actually making it so, and the way an RPG tries to make it easier may acually alienate instead of encourage, through no fault of its own design.

As for Brucato, whether or not those asides are important to the tone of his game isn't as important as whether or not the information will be useful to the player, especially in a chapter about running the game. I wish you would stop defending games you don't read or like just because someone said something about it that you would probably otherwise agree with in a mean tone.

>>50129930
>You mean, other than the assertion that the Jews, Muslims and Christians were right, and other religions shouldn't even exist?

I'm talking about in terms of stuff that happened, though obviously I have to point out all 3 are deranged (Christ was Lucifer's apprentice rather than an incarnation of God, Mohammed was most definitely not visited by a 'good' angel and the Jews are wholly delusional in terms of them being a Chosen Race or having been given Promised Land etcetera).

>>50129855
If an RPG writer is your idea of decadent, you must be a cartoon parody of a Stalinist.

>>50129755
1996. It was the end of the grunge era, and some of the kids that liked Primus and weed used to wear them. Some teenagers went off like firecrackers over them, acting in a way that I suppose they acted 20 years later over the bhurka.

>>50129902
>I meant direct ranting

Book of the Weaver is pretty direct...

>>50129985

>Neoliberals

Well you do like to complain about yourself very often...

>>50129985
>You got what you asked for, but didn't ask for what you wanted.

I asked for a rules compendium and clearer rules for Paradigm nothing else, i dont know what is that you think "i asked".

>>50129905
>>50129916
Yeah, but those still sound like offshoots of clans. I mean, the Giovanni were a bloodline descended from *some* vampire, and the Nagaraja were still essentially embraced by the Ravnos.

I would have thought Nagaraja would have been tied with Tzimisce. Aren't they the big African vampires with Viccissitude, or am I thinking of something else?

>>50129976
>>50129952
Your understanding of how editors work is weird.
You know the editor isn't supposed to make judgements on what does or doesn't belong, right?

>>50129806
>You wanted a Deluxe 20th Anniversary Edition of Mage: The Ascension.
>You got a book that is exactly that.

Take a photo of the dictionary you're using and show me what it defines "deluxe" as. Broken? Messy? Incompetent? Contradictory? Confusing?

I ask, because google defines it as:
>adjective
>luxurious or sumptuous; of a superior kind.
>
>synonyms: luxurious, luxury, sumptuous, palatial, opulent, splendid, magnificent, lavish, grand, rich, superior, high-class, quality, exclusive, choice, select, elegant, well appointed, fancy; expensive, costly; upmarket;
>informal - plush, plushy, posh, classy, ritzy, swanky, pricey, fancy-pants;
> informal - swish;
> informal - swank, loaded;
> rare - palatian,

Have you finished making a fool of yourself now?

>>50130035
No, Nagaraja were the most necromancery of the necromancer's club, they used to be able to ghoul ghosts n sheeeiit.

The ones with haywire Vicissitude (more haywire than usual) are some African bloodline.

>>50129987
Dogs in the Vineyard was literally the first game I ever played.

I feel like you've missed the point. The long and short of it is that mechanics can reinforce the narrative. When I say "emotion", I don't mean strong feelings of happiness or sadness, I mean the vague and nebulous feeling that something has happened.

Mechanical systems can provide agency in a way that freeform play doesn't.

>>50129828
No, I just think you all snigger and carry on about how you're better than "certain types of people". Bunk. You all shit, piss and die like the rest of us. Why are you getting so defensive? Does it upset you to think you're no better than the people you look down on?

>>50130019
You must be that guy who doesn't know what neoliberals are.

>>50130033
>>50130047
You asked for a 20th Edition of Mage and that's what you fucking got. You just don't seem happy that you got the distilled essence of Mage: The Ascension.

>Dictionary definition of deluxe
A massive fancy hardback book with a shiny cover and cloth bookmark certainly sounds like a luxury to me.

>>50130069
You do understand that when the "certain type" is a self-chosen type, it's reasonable to complain and criticize it, as opposed to inherent and unchangeable features such as ethnicity, right?

You're literally comparing complaining about black people to complaining about shitty people who have chosen to be shitty.

>>50129985
>People aren't on the autistic spectrum just for finding you whiny.
Don't blame me, you read it in your voice.

>>50130086
>You asked for a 20th Edition of Mage and that's what you fucking got. You just don't seem happy that you got the distilled essence of Mage: The Ascension.

good bait anon.

>>50129993
>your whole post

wat

>>50130069
If we are all the same and we all must die I'd prefer to die without a shitty hat on

>>50129985
>STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE
>MUMMY MAKE THEM STOP

Jesus, you are fucking pathetic. You are literally no different from a redneck ranting about "JOOS and A-RABS", you just obsess over politics instead of race.

>>50130173
And you compared complaining about pretentious egotists to literal fucking Jim Crow

>>50130153
Referring to DtF's setting. Guy I was responding to seemed to have been frustrated over how God is or was real in DtF, so I wanted to point out that its still very far from saying Christianity etc. is right (DtF's God is probably the same being as either Gaia or the August Personage of Jade etc)

>>50130107
>complaining about shitty people who have chosen to be shitty.

Seriously, it's a fucking hat. Get over yourself, you sad, pathetic little shit. I can think of fifteen things off the top of my head that are worth getting angry over, and headwear is not one of them.

>>50130086
>A massive fancy hardback book with a shiny cover and cloth bookmark certainly sounds like a luxury to me.

Well, I can't very well do anything about you being a complete sap who can't tell quality from dross, can I?

>>50130062

Right, you're still applying a subjective quality to mechanics with an objective quality, you're just changing the definition. Agency has nothing to do with it.

>>50130173
It's almost as if politics were a chosen belief that could be changed or grow or learned, while race is an unchanging trait that you're born into.

Do you not understand that criticizing people for their beliefs and actions is different from hating people for traits they had no control over?

>>50130202
No one is complaining about *the hat* you incompetent shit. People are complaining about the type of person the hat is associated with.
Jesus you are 10/10 this is infuriating bait

>>50130167
Mate, I don't wear a Fez. It doesn't mean I piss on everyone who does.

>>50130218
I'm getting very frustrated here because you seem to be completely misunderstanding the argument that I am making in favour of that old kernel of ̶s̶h̶i̶t̶ wisdom that every system is equally viable and the GM is the sole determiner of whether a game is enjoyable.

>>50130221
>Do you not understand that criticizing people for their beliefs and actions is different from hating people for traits they had no control over?

One allows you to bully people over the internet with a clear conscience, while the other triggers your white guilt?

>>50130086

>Michael Bay films and bad anime are directly equivalent with "capitalism apologists"

A neoliberal that pays lipservice to anti-capitalism is still a neoliberal. Just saying.

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>>50130248
>every system is equally viable

Play FATAL sometime. It's very existence nullifies your argument.

>>50130263
Go back and read that sentence again.
Why would I call "every system is viable and the GM is the sole determiner of whether a game is enjoyable" a kernel of shit if it was something that I believed?
My argument is that many games have mechanics that add to the game experience, and facilitate certain narrative tones.

>>50130250
Sure.
Aren't you just bullying those poor people who's belief is that fedoras are bad? You're doing the same thing, anon. We need someone to come defend the anti-fedoras from your discrimination.

>>50130255
I didn't say they're equivalent. And, what, you expect me to smash capitalism myself? You've consistently shown that you don't know what neoliberal means, and I regret trying to trigger you by tossing it into the list :V

AH found yall's Problem

>OPP Gives a shit about another creators aborted universe when they're real cash cows are making money hand over fist

>>50123227
I have never noticed that those had blonde hair...

Wasn't Ascension always shit? Or maybe I just really hate consensual reality.

>>50130337
What? I think the M20 Kickstarter was one of their most successful.

>>50130344
Yes

>>50129378
AFAIK, word count is also sectional as well.

>>50130248

I'm saying that while a game can have mechanics that maintain narrative consistency and encourage a tight flow of play, the qualities you bring up are something that's ultimately inherent to the social contract nature of gaming because of its more active nature.

I am also saying that how a game tries to encourage its play can be alienating to the player through no fault of the game's design. A rigorously mechanical narrative system or a very loose binary system may grant agency to some players, but other may come away feeling restrained, or that the game is patronizing them.

That doesn't mean that the GM is the sole arbiter of quality or that every system is viable. We both know that's not true, but we're talking about games on a meta level. And on the meta level, it's important to understand what qualities actually come from the game as a system, and which qualities actually come from the game as a social event. You're ascribing one to the other.

>>50130288
>Aren't you just bullying those poor people who's belief is that fedoras are bad?
Standing up to them, anon. Zie is standing up to them.

>>50130344
>Wasn't Ascension always shit?
Yeah, but at least it never got nWoD levels of bad.
>"hey guise, let's take out all the horror and all the intrigue and just have a bunch of low-powered emos running around giving each other the finger!"

>>50129814
And then God kills you for being a cheeky little shit and not learning your fucking lesson, which was the point of the Wormwood scenario. And you die anyway.

>>50130408
I don't know; you can still get up to some pretty crazy shit in Awakening.

I was actually thinking about why Apocalypse worked for me and Ascension and Dreaming didn't. I think the answer is that, while all three games had a heavy theme of "fuck the man," Apocalypse gave you something better and more timeless to fight for, i.e. the survival of the planet itself. It also helps that your main enemy is the god of evil.

>>50130288

>You expect me to smash capitalism myself?
>follows it up with a trigger joke

It's not my fault that you can't come to terms with being a comfortable, privileged neolib. You'll even mock identity politics when given the chance.

>>50130431
I think you wind up dying of turning into Tzimisce Tang in that one, not sure.

>>50130392
They are not inherent to the social contract, though. The way that one game handles something creates a different 'feel' to how another game handles it.

This is why playing a game in a different system will result in a very different game. Whether that alienates people or not is beside the point. In fact, it's sort of the point I'm making to begin with. The quality that I am talking about--how mechanics can encourage specific emotional responses--IS inherent to the system. I'm not saying that they're going to 100% result in people caring--even in the video I linked there's no reason that those mechanics would inherently result in an emotional response--it's that HAVING those mechanics that work towards that goal is always going to be better than NOT having them.

As an example, people always talk about removing the Morality systems from WoD games. That's because those systems are put there specifically to encourage a tone of play that some people dislike. That is a mechanic that facilitates and encourages a specific emotional response. It encourages "tone".

>>50130408
>Yeah, but at least it never got nWoD levels of bad.
5/10, would have been higher if you hadn't implied Ascension wasn't exactly as you described.
Although I'm not sure how you get "low powered" from either Mage game.

>>50130452
Nah that was crucible of god

>>50130451
Do you think that every American is a neoliberal?
Do you think that everyone who has the internet is comfortable or privileged?

>>50130469
The storyline in which Tremere/Saulot uses Thaum 3 to ignore the generation rot thing involves Tzimisce fleshbeasting everything and everyone.

LARP went swimmingly last night. Tremere-hosted halloween ball.
* An Assamite leaning towards the Loyalists/Mountain attacked the Assamite Primogen, and the Loyalist got torpored for his trouble.
* A dance myself and another player had been prepping for, a waltz, went very swimmingly.
* All the Tremere players ended up dying due to the ritual failing, and no one turning into Mages. There was a lot of good improvisation, including a really baby Tremere running to anyone who had any blood magic trying to find a way to not die.
* Lots of mixed reations, including fear, anger, hate and opportunism.
* Malkavian Primogen ended up having an awesome improv 'LOOK GEHENNA IS UPON US!' speech.
* Building caught on fire due to Assamite #1 and prepping stuff ahead of time. Many people took damage but no one died (though one nearly did)

All in all, a wonderful session.

>>50130431
I both hate Wormwood and want to play it, to see how hard I can break that scenario.

>neopagan PC with True Faith
>high Humanity, interested in helping other Kindred be nicer
>utterly appalled by the events of Wormwood, tries to organize a refugee effort to get as many vampires as possible into the sanctuary
>hopefully has enough Faith to take on Ferox directly if that becomes an issue

>>50130288
>smashing capitalism
>neo-anything
Karl Marx is long dead.

>>50130464
>As an example, people always talk about removing the Morality systems from WoD games. That's because those systems are put there specifically to encourage a tone of play that some people dislike. That is a mechanic that facilitates and encourages a specific emotional response. It encourages "tone".

>implying that the mechanic does its work well.

As for low powered mage games the trick is the pc starting with arete/arcanum 2, use time skips and only letting player raise between timeskips.

Unlike other games the power level gap between arcanum 2 and 3 is massive.

>>50130464

Once again, you are ignoring the social aspects of the game, and attributing a quality of the game as a social event to a quality of the game as a system.

Having narratively consistent mechanics is not always better than not having them at all. Not only does execution of the game as system matter when you make a statement like that, it also ignores the creative agenda of the group and why they want to play. If their creative agenda does not sync or conform to the mechanics for any reason, no emotional response occurs, no matter how well the system might do so.

Morality encourages tone, but that does not inherently create emotion, even under your definition, without the acceptance and understanding of people coming into the game. And this is where the nebulous subjectivity of the game as a social event comes into play, which is the essential half of the game that created the RPG play experience as we know it.

This is the problem when you talk about "emotional resonance" and whether or not a mechanic is "meaningful". You are applying subjective terms when you want to talk about "consistency", whether it's to theme or to genre.

>>50130493

Damn, that sounds like a hell of a session! Also, props to you for actually waltzing, very nice. How much practice did it take?

>>50130464
>I'm not sure how you get "low powered" from either Mage game.

You're right, both are pretty full on. Just a shame Awakening is uninteresting as well as uninspired, really.

>>50130658
cool opinion bro

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ah I do love chrod/wod on a sunday

>>50130745
>chrod

Stop that

>>50130639
My partner choregoraphed it; we had been practicing 3 hours a night since last Sunday. It wasn't a long waltz, just about 3 minutes, but it was fun. It was a neat choreography too; the more formalized old style waltz for the old Russian Tremere Elder, and then partway through the music speed changes and we switched to some more spins and 'free form' stuff as the Toreador Elder takes over control of the waltz.

>>50130753
never change ausburgers never change

>>50130753

Chrod
Cod
CofD
New New Wod
NWoD second
Chronicles of fagness

>>50130617
The fucking social aspects are not fucking relevant here you Goddamned dumbass, we're talking about the fucking system. The social qualities of the game don't change that certain mechanics encourage certain playstyles. The creative agenda of the group doesn't fucking matter. I can play an in depth social game with fucking D&D, but that's ignoring the bulk of the system and freeforming because there are little if any meaningful rules for complex social interactions.

>If their creative agenda does not sync or conform to the mechanics for any reason, no emotional response occurs, no matter how well the system might do so.
No, they do have an emotional response. Again, "emotional response" in this case does not mean feeling joy or sadness or fear, it means having at least some sort of feeling towards the events of the game. That going *against* the mechanics creates a negative emotional response is sort of my point. The mechanics encourage a certain playstyle. Not playing to that without altering the mechanics creates a fundamentally worse experience.

>Having narratively consistent mechanics is not always better than not having them at all.
Yes, it is, provided that you are using the right mechanics for your narrative. Playing WoD in D&D's system doesn't work. One of the reasons I don't like Shadowrun, for instance, is that the games I'd want to play in it would have a tone more similar to WoD.

Either way I think I'm done with this discussion.

>>50130658
2/10

>>50130753
>Crud
>Chronicles of Fartness
>Molecules of Partners
>Monocles of Spa-baths
>Darkity-Darkity-Dark-Dark Darkness
>Chronicles of Mechanical Devices That Create Emotion And Pathos, See, It Says "Emotion And Pathos" On The Card

>>50130802
Wow. I can honestly say you completely shit all over the guys who used to crazy glue rice crispies all over their face and say "I'm a Nosferatu!"

as well as the guys who used to Blackface as an Assamite Elder

>>50130879
We get it. Being a Rules Lawyer makes you erect. Half this thread is you repeating yourself and refusing to acknowledge that a bunch of rules =/= emotional content

I'm putting together an Unchained for an chronicle, but I've run into a problem, that I hope you could help me with.

The Demon in question is supposed to be real stealthy, skulking around in darkness, that sorta thing.

But one of the Demon Form powers I want, the Plasma Drive, glows. And I can't figure out a way to re-fluff that to still keep it cool, thematic, and not-glowing.
Does anyone have any ideas?

>>50131184
>crazy glue rice crispies all over their face
This sounds absurdly painful to try to remove.

>>50131206
Um... sneak around in human form?

>There is no "right way" to have fun with our brands. --- White Wolf Publishing

>FUKK U REETUD YOUR WRONG --- standard Crod player and rules lawyer

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>>50131184
LOL. Thanks. And hey, crushed-up corn flakes, a bit of toilet paper and some liquid latex or Elmer's Glue can, if you take time to layer it and set it up appropriately, do good Nosferatu. Even I have trouble doing 'per the book' Nosferatu makeup. But people forget, there are also non-Orlockian nosferatu. Cock Robin, their justicar, has a big-ass bird face. As long as it looks horrendous and Nos-ly, I'm cool with it.

Here's our costumes from last night (I was totally channeling Imperial Russia when I designed my jacket).

>>50131334
>>FUKK U REETUD YOUR WRONG --- standard player and rules lawyer

corrected that for you

>>50131203
>>50131334
But I'm not a rules lawyer, you dumbass. I regularly change or ignore rules to better suit what I want the game to be like. Calling me a rules lawyer because I like there to be mechanics, and I like those mechanics to facilitate the narrative experience, is as reasonable as if I called you a freeform loving faggot just because you're arguing against me.

I mean, when you get right down to it the crux of my argument is "some mechanical systems are better for certain games than others are."

>>50131206
I can't remember what that one does. Although "sneaking around in human form instead of Demon form" is pretty good advice regardless

>>50131352
Jesus, 10/10

>>50131443
>if I called you a freeform loving faggot just because you're arguing against me.

Well... I do love freeform... and I do love cock... so really, that's just us both stating the facts. But let's get back to why you're a Rules Lawyer. It's because you are so emotionally invested in the idea of a static, logic-driven system that you seem to panic in the face of abandoning it. It's become a security blanket for you, a way to clutch at something "safe" while the game topics disgust and horrify you. The crux of your argument was never about some systems being better fits than others, it was about reinforcing emotional content through an anal application of the ruleset. That may be true for you, friend, but not for the rest of us.

Totally not lying about the cock. Kiss kiss, darling.

>>50131443
>I can't remember what that one does. Although "sneaking around in human form instead of Demon form" is pretty good advice regardless

It gives you temporary bursts of super-speed, and defence against firearms.


Which is really useful. I'd especially like it as a partial transformation. When, you know, sneaking around in (mostly) human form.
Except that it glows.
That means you can perhaps hide it when it's bright outside, but it's impossible to skulk around in darkness.

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Pic related ST is a goddamn pussy chickenshit yellowbelly candyass softcock poon punk pussyhole jabroni

>>50131524
sneak in human form, power up if spotted. No-one will be shooting at you if they don't know you're there, and sudden movement may make people notice you.

>>50131511
>It's because you are so emotionally invested in the idea of a static, logic-driven system that you seem to panic in the face of abandoning it.
Are you just incapable of reading comprehension?
>It's become a security blanket for you, a way to clutch at something "safe" while the game topics disgust and horrify you.
What does that even mean?
>Kiss kiss, darling.
Oh, is that you? Did you just trade off shitting up one thread for another?

>>50131524
Getting glowing Tron lines when you need to flee isn't that bad. But you could also have it produce shadows and smoke. Also, you could just say that the light doesn't attract attention, and instead causes people to ignore the Demon, what with, you know, it being magic light.

>>50131626
>Getting glowing Tron lines when you need to flee isn't that bad.

I suppose not.
Veins filled with darkness, and a cloud of shadow around you is cool, but I don't think it looks super-speedy enough.
Damn it. This is difficult.

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>>50131511
>oldwodfag still believes using own sexuality as a weapon of offensive is an effective MastDe-bater tool

Trying to use edgy shit from the 90s ? What century is this? Stop using tg as a cumrag, we don't need an inside view of your morning bathroom routine

>>50130879

You are talking soley about the game as a system. I am talking about the game as a social event, and the interactions between between the two to create the RPG game experience.

The mechanics you are discussing do indeed encourage a playstyle, but any kind of emotional reaction, including your definition, ultimately comes from the social contract and creative agenda of the group. Again, an RPG is not a video game. It is an actively participated social experience as much as it is a game, and ascribing the qualities of one aspect to another is just plain wrong.

Again "meaningfulnees" does not exist in a mechanical sense. It exists in a social sense, and while a good mechanic may create emotion and meaningfullness, the two are not the same. This is a trap that many early designers fell into.

The creative agenda of the group always matters. To deny this flies in the face of many modern game theories, including the one that led to the birth of Dogs in the Vineyard, your first game. It is why otherwise well designed games cannot appeal to some people. It is why some people will still play a GoT game in D&D even though there's so many other options. It is why we play at all.

Mechanical consistency is not the end-all be-all of game design. You have to understand that.

I'll accept your concession of the argument, Aspel, but I urge you to actually read about RPG theory and absorb what it means, instead of just name dropping and using a YouTube series on video games to serve as the main crux of your argument. I also encourage you to play more RPGs with an open mind. You're only hurting yourself by not taking the time to get hands on learning in practice and theory.

If you want understanding like you say, you have to work to get it. And I'm sure you will one day.

>>50130802

Damn. This actually makes me want to start up a LARP. How does one organize one?

Okay, so I'm not particularly a fan of Reqium or it's rules, but this Count Fucking Dracula guy makes me chuckle.

>>50131837

>trying to have a conversation with aspel.
>said conversation didnt boil down to insulting aspel

Hope you learned your leason anon.

>>50131690
Iunno, smoke is pretty fast. You ever seen Rise of the Guardians?

>>50131837
You are talking about something completely unrelated to the thing that I am trying to talk to you about, yes.
>Again, an RPG is not a video game.
>The creative agenda of the group always matters
>Mechanical consistency is not the end-all be-all of game design. You have to understand that.
No one said otherwise.
These statements make me realize that you are not understanding the things that I am saying.
You are consistently failing to grasp the core concept of what I am saying, and instead talking about something else. You are assuming that I am saying one thing when I am saying another.

>Again "meaningfulnees" does not exist in a mechanical sense. It exists in a social sense, and while a good mechanic may create emotion and meaningfullness, the two are not the same.
You're seriously missing the point. Let me try an analogy: A hammer works a lot better than a crowbar when you want to drive in a nail.

>>50131864
Kinda depends on your area. I've been running LARPs here in my city on and off for the past decade, but when I was starting out..
* First find out if there's interest in it. Local gaming store advertisements, Facebook group, RPG forums and such, local bookshops and such. Make paper ads, if you have a local gaming club find out if there are people interested. Local actors guilds. Anywhere you can advertise and see what the interest would be, but it's always best to start with a small, intimate group of people you know. Word of mouth is the best method to attract new people.
* If you have people interested, you'll need to find out what you want to actually do, what game and genre and system and stuff.
* The hardest part is finding space. We used to use various free or cheap spaces; right now we have a salon in a conference center we rent, and we have access to all the open function space, so we have a lot of breakout room.

It's trial and error, and sweat and footwork to get a lot of it done. Especially if you're going to be the ST and organizer. Be prepared for personality conflicts, rules lawyers, and having to punish people for being cheaters and ejecting people from the game (including friends). But also be prepared for, what I think, can be one of the funnest activities and experiences you can have.

Also, what the FUCK, 4chan? I just had to do 9 fucking captchas.

>>50131914
Count F▆▆▆king Dracula

>>50132015
>Also, what the FUCK, 4chan? I just had to do 9 fucking captchas.
Maybe you're a robot.

But seriously at this point if it wants me to click until no more appear, I'll just refresh it. I have no idea why that one is so fucking spotty. It might also have to do with any extensions or add-ons you have. I know I had to get rid of one that made me go through a lot, and then copy paste a random string.

>>50132000
>Iunno, smoke is pretty fast. You ever seen Rise of the Guardians?

Can't say I have.
Smoke is more about concealment than speed though.
But... It is all about defence after all, so re-fluffing it as darkness filling the veins, and smoking darkly... Yeah. I think it could work.

>>50132034
>maybe you're a robot

My secret is revealed!

>>50132034
>Count F▆▆▆king Dracula
Was introduced to the character as an way to play the stereotypical 90's Brujah while still keeping the element of education the Clan had before the modern day.

>>50132078
You can do that regardless.
Besides, everyone knows Count F▆▆▆king Dracula is a Promethean anyway.

>>50132156
Oh, I know you can, it's just something I've not often seen actually done.
And really, though The Count'a physical appearance is certainly odd it's hardly in the realm of impossibility.

It has been 12 years since the end. Our Empire of Night lies sundered. The young rule the streets and we, the Elders, are silent. Our ancient wars begun anew, even as a new and even more brutal mortal Inquisition has begun.

Welcome to Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition, aka, V.V

>>50132283
Eh? New info dropped?

>>50129338
>>While the Ravnos were absolutely decimated in comparison to what their numbers *used* to be, there's still a few members of the clan left. A little over a hundred members was the number given in "Time of Thin Blood". The Week of Nightmares happened in 1999 according to the Revised timeline (if you're following the 20th Anniversary timeline, the Week of Nightmares happen whenever the Storyteller wants it to happen). So, Gehenna in Revised takes place in 2004.

There was nothing saying they couldn't, and nothing stopped the other clans that had their antedeluvians killed/diablerized, so I'm gonna go with "yes, they can still embrace".

>>50129750
>You can't just say "Nope," the books definitely portrayed the surviving Ravnos as diablerizing each other

Yes, but that was during the Week of Nightmares. Three nights after Zapathasura's death, the frenzying and forced-diablerie-on-sight stopped.

This is directly explained in "Time of Thin Blood". The book even outlines the rules for frenzying; the higher generations have a lower difficulty in resisting frenzy (which happens whenever they wake every night for three nights, or whenever they see another Ravnos), while the lower generations have a harder time with it. After the three nights are over though, Ravnos are free to do whatever they want; the chains of the Antedeluvian are finally snapped.

Of course, most (if not all) of the survivors will have gotten traumatized over this ordeal, and many will sport signs of diablerie after the three nights are over and will have to live with that for the rest of their unlives, no matter how long or short it is.

But yeah, after that, Ravnos can still embrace and make new vampires. They're free to rejuvenate the clan/bloodline, although they'll probably never be a force to be reckoned with, due to the death of all the elders.

>>50132000

You put some Errant Signals videos into the thread and hoped it would explain yourself, and you straight up said

>>50130879

>The creative agenda of the group doesn't fucking matter

So, you did.

I understand your point. But your point is rooted in an philosophy that looks too much on mechanics than it does the social contract and creative agenda of the player. This is why your arguments are only explaining the basics of the CofD system and lumping it in with stronger systems, instead of actually addressing why someone may understand that and still come away unsatisfied with the 2e mechanics.

You've taken the complex aspects of game design and boiled it down to "some games have 'meaningful' mechanics and some do not", which won't help you defend the games you like nor help criticise the games you do not like.

>>50131690
How about faint satic after images that last for a second or two.

>>50132015

Thank you! I'll have to start asking around!

>>50132390
I'm keeping that for teleport, alas. (Grabbing both via the advanced form merit.)

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I am legitimately curious as to who the fuck would actually prefer the angst, obtuse rules, built-in magical realm, and agonizing liberal diatribe of oWoD to the simple toolkit that is CofD.

>>50132486
Some owod/nwod creatures have clear counterparts, other times its pretty indirect. Many VtM itches can be smushed into VtR (especially if your character is a very vanilla kind of vampire), and maybe MtA into MtA, but very broad swathes of Mummy, Demon, Werewolf, and Hunter don't remotely translate and comparisons of "better" are futile.

>>50132558
Well if you like WtA there's always Changing Breeds. :)

>>50132486

1/10 obvious bait. Come back when you can think of a better bait.

>>50132610
Did I strike a nerve, Dracula?

>>50132632
>full ass-rape stiffness

Just sayin

>>50132453
I like the way you think.

>>50132283

Is this legit? Can I get a source?

>>50132650
You're not exactly helping to defend owod if that's what you're going to say about it.

>>50132575

Well if that's your thing I won't question your tastes, anon.

>>50132632

Not really but you could do better anon, so much better. Angst, buil-in magical realms and agonizing liberal diatribe? That is all new CofD.

You gotta keep up with neckbeards anon, someday i know you will bait like the best.

>>50132681
>>50132318
I am 400% sure that there will be a VtM fourth edition before there is a fifth edition, gaiz.

>>50132685
I'm saying there is something that translates directly from WtA, and it's Changing Breeds.

>>50132702
White Wolf has stated that they consider V20 to be a proper 4th Edition, and that they'll be producing it as 5th Edition.

>>50131762
abs or GTFO

>>50132264
I don't really remember the specifics, but Count Fucking Dracula is actually the real Dracula's Childe, and there's some implication in one of the books that he's not Embraced so much as "made".

>>50132363
The creative agenda of the group doesn't matter when discussing how mechanics facilitate certain playstyles. You seem to think I mean that the creative agenda of the group doesn't matter period.

My point is not rooted in a philosophy other than "certain mechanics make certain game styles easier or more difficult". That's something that shouldn't even be a disagreement, much less an argument. You've completely failed to understand what "meaningful" means in this context. Though the phrase I used was emotionally resonant.

>>50132486
I'm on the CofD side by a wide margin but that's just not even trying at bait.

>>50132702
1e, 2e, Revised, 20th, and V

Also, "V:V" reminds me of Resident EVII.

>>50132708
It translates, somewhat, in terms of eco-flavor alone, but that's about it.

A better comparison is the corrupt nature spirit demons in Inferno being similar much more mechanically interesting than banes are in owod, but on the other hand possessed are a bit crappy compared to both odemons and fomori in terms of variety, progression, etc.

So, do you think they'll ever rework the Kuei-Jin?
As it is they weren't tied into anything resembling either Eastern folklore OR Western vampire folklore and instead had this almost entirely cut from whole cloth mythology that tied heavily into Exalted's 1e backstory/metaplot and stuff.

I'd even be fine if they were just traditional vampires that had their own sect influenced by their culture like the Islamic Ashirra Kindred had rather then arbitrarily special vampires for the sake of Orientalism.

>>50132735
>>50132892
Wow, they're really continuing VtM with a new ed? That's genuinely cool.

I've thought for a very long time that emphasizing hunters as antagonists would be really great.

>>50132978
Well western vampires aren't remotely tied into western folklore, so eastern vampires probably shouldn't be tied into eastern folklore.

They're more like everything and the kitchen sink ultimate crossover monsters.

>I'd even be fine if they were just traditional vampires that had their own sect influenced by their culture

Pure waste of wordcount.

>>50132318
>>50132681

I'm obviously the only one that bothered to watch the entire Grand Masquerade 2016 keynote speech.... take note, IP holders. It's also noteworthy because they literally tell LARP and TT groups to just flat out ban shithead players instead of trying to cope with people using "in character" as an excuse for "bad behaviour", an obvious nod to the most oft-levelled criticism against One World By Night and it's issues with in-game harassment through sexual assault. One major player's quote was "let's not turn this rape into a murder", and seriously, it was scaring off female players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ezN0vwKhA

>>50132486
Oooh, Me! Me! Me!

>>50133027
I'm fine with them having their own thing, but tying them into Exalted is ridiculous.
Like the Hunters from Reckoning; it wasn't something done for reasons beyond cross-marketing bullshit, and tying Exalted into it would be even more pointless then it was when they first did it.

>>50133050
I haven't watched the entire GM speech, no. But the rest of it I've heard about tangentially due to being friends with people in the big LARP groups.

I just wasn't sure if the quote you put up there was from something newer than that. Suppose I'll sit down and listen to the whole speech sometime this afternoon.

>>50132892
>You've completely failed to understand what "meaningful" means in this context.
Stop. Just stop. I know it's you. It's always you. You come to this thread and you start some stupid semantic argument, endlessly chasing definitions around in circles and repeating yourself whenever anyone tries to actually discuss anything with you. Just let it go, and move on. You honestly sound like the guy from the Monty Python sketch, popping in here for an argument, and responding to everything everyone says with a long winded "oh, no it isn't". I'm sick of it, zie is sick of it, zie has had it up to here, and zie just switched to /h/ to look for decent porn.

Find something to talk about that won't result in you arguing about the *context* of your words, for fuck's sake.......

>>50133076
Well, like them or not, the Ebon Dragon & Scarlet Queen are figures that straddle KotE, HtR & DtF, in addition to them being tied into wraiths & spirits. That's a pretty sweet resume, especially in a game system that is normally so opaque to crossover.

I'm all for tweaking it to be less Exaltedy especially because there is absolutely nothing that fits (one of the two last surviving angels, that is a personification of yin & death to the KotE and the force representative of the virtue of Mercy doesn't fit into really ... anything... about the Exalted Ebon Dragon).

>>50132978
Yes. The Keynote address stated that they are reusing everything, every gameline. They explicitly said leaving Demon off the White Wolf website was a mistake, because all the old creatures are coming back.

>>50132892

But it does, because only when the creative agenda and social contract syncs with the mechanics do the mechanics actually do their job.

Again, "mechanics encourage different playstyle" is basic game design. The problem isn't that you're saying that, the problem is that you are ignoring the social and human factors that make up a game, and doing so will not actually strengthen any of your arguments. You confuse what's in the game as a system with what's in the game as a social event. It's an overly reductive philosophy, one that seems to be based on misunderstanding what works in video games and what works in RPGs.

The mechanics can encourage narrative and thematic consistency, but they do not themselves cause emotional resonance. They can do this in video games which are a more controlled and crafted experience with both active and passive elements of consumption.

It's not a matter of misunderstanding you. You just have a flawed point.

>>50133186
Old World of Darkness:
>ST: ...the sight of the putrefying corpse and it's sunken, empty eyesockets horrifies you to your very core. The stench of decay is rich in your nostrils, and you suddenly taste bile in your throat, struggling to breathe over the sickly sweet smell of grave-rot.... roll Self Control or flee the scene.

New World of Darkness:
>(ST hands player a card with "Rattled" written on it) You are at -2 until this condition is resolved.

Yep. Totally. Emotional resonance. Feeling it.

>>50133264
>saving throw or your character doesn't get to participate because its icky to a fucking blodsugging monfer

Second example is strictly superior.

>>50133264

Nah, that's disingenuous. That's a lot of fluff around a save roll, and one's a decent ongoing mechanical effect. Neither would are emotionally resonant mechanics, because that's not really a thing in RPGs but one is clearly more narratively consistent with the other.

That's the other mistake people make when it comes to thinking about mechanics. They think that if they apply enough description or fiction to it, it somehow makes the mechanic itself better.

GoD, I just LOVE edition wars. They really being meaningful discussion to the table.

What are the ramifications for an apartment building blowing up and frenzied Kindred eating the first responders?

My players tried to subdue a Kindred military veteran last session, he's here to wage a guerrilla war that's part of the ongoing campaign story. This soldier is one of many, but right now he's the players big concern. The players have managed to befriend him and arranged to meet him at a safe house. He got there early I decided, he's a soldier in enemy territory, he scopes the place out.

But the players are one of two Coteries tracking down this guy, and my players are about as subtle as a bus made of bricks, so these other kindred found the safe house. After a bit of a fight, the Soldier blew it up using explosives. The entire apartment went up, it's a two storey building and terraced. The other kindred are inside the building, and two of them die but the other three flip the fuck out and frenzy while they run around on fire. The players and the first respondents arrive at roughly the same time, respondents go in and get torn apart by three frenzying Vampires. The players have no idea where the Soldier responsible is anymore, a building has been gutted and there was probably extensive damage to neighbouring streets and the emergency services that responded would've been killed in a manner that bears no similarity to an explosion of any sort. I'm not sure what happened to the Frenzied Kindred yet as we ended the session there. What directions would you guys take this?

>>50129916
>They didn't even get embraced properly, they just slit their throats and jumped in a vat of pure Ravnos juice

Wasn't it Setite?

>>50133300
>assuming I'm talking about Vampire when both worlds have about a dozen splats a piece

Do you just not go outside and check your car is there before you phone the cops and report it stolen, too? Remember Anon, when you ASSUME it makes baby Jesus cry

>>50133264
>it's one or the other

hey man if you can't only handle doing the mechainical or only doing the fluff thats on you mate

>>50133575

>assuming

Self control virtue was mentioned, which 99% of the time indicates a VtM char

>>50133441
>GoD
>Gonads of Darkness

I'd play it

>>50133375
>They think that if they apply enough description or fiction to it, it somehow makes the mechanic itself better.

Of course, we all know it's actually better because they have Capitalisation ®

>>50133441

>>50130745

>>50133502
>What are the ramifications for an apartment building blowing up and frenzied Kindred eating the first responders?

Your PCs are fucked if they don't seal that Masquerade breach.

>>50133681
I thought as much. They definitely didn't do that. They ran away and hid to lick their wounds, it was very early in the morning and they didn't want the sun to catch them with their pants down. Any ideas for what a full day of mortal damage control/investigation this would entail? I presume there'd be a healthy Ghoul presence in the right places within the emergency services, but not enough to put a lid on this.

>>50133130
>Telling Aspel to fucking stop
This never works. At best he'll take the rest of the thread off, and then maybe skip the next one, and then expect to be applauded for that while he's sending its successor thread down in flames, because when we claim he "ruins all the threads" we're clearly lying because he JUST wasn't here!

He doesn't seem to understand that people aren't always perfectly literal all of the time, and ruining the vast majority of threads by shitting them up with arguments nonstop pay as well be ruining every thread.

>>50133731
There'd need to be a good solid cleanup operation dedicated to the effort of making sure all the leaks are plugged. Witnesses bribed or disappeared, medical records hacked or lost, bodies vanished or tampered with to remove evidence of feeding or residual vampire dust (as apparently these licks were burning WHILE attacking the paramedics?), etc...

>>50133502
All bar one of the frenzying vampires succumb to being on fucking fire, and the survivor is fucking pissed. He'll be back in a game or two, but right now he's laying low and regrouping.

The Soldier has a bolthole somewhere easily defensible where he's laying low, too. The Motor Room at the top of an apartment complex elevator shaft, perhaps, with a zipline off the roof to a building across the road. He sleeps on a flattened cardboard box after barricading the steel door, drinking blood bags from a bar fridge and polishing guns while he listens to the radio for news updates, or maybe waiting for a transmission from his handler.

Speaking of pissed off, the Prince is madder than a shithouse rat. He holds the players directly responsible and hands them the cleanup. The Fire Inspector will need to be... persuaded it was a gasline explosion. The Feds will need to be dodged and avoided. The local police need some sizable sweeteners (or several "unofficial" jobs done) to look the other way on this one. Remains must be stolen from the Morgue, evidence from the lock-up. Luckily the explosion meant the area was cordoned off, so no civilian witnesses.

Basically the whole next story is a Hallmark Card entitled, "sorry we blew up a building and threatened the Masquerade".

>>50133681
Depends how burnt down the building is, if the bodies were caught in the fire or not and if said ghouls could just pass it off as they got trapped then got roasted by the fire.

>>50133542
just checked it, yes, it was Setite. They were enemies of the Snakes at the time, and just kept blood from their enemies. The wiki says something about the Setites wanting Enoch to trigger an eternal night, and so they decided to do the Tremere thing and trade Quintessence-fuelled True Magick for blood-fuelled Necromancy. Which makes absolutely no sense.

There's a reason I never used them. They're.... kind of crap.

>>50133611
>Self control virtue was mentioned, which 99% of the time indicates a VtM char

Wrong. Mortals in oWoD were developed largely off the back of the VtM framework. The only real difference in terms of Virtues is that a Mortal can never lose their last dot of Humanity, no matter how depraved they get.

>>50133782
Maybe if we're really lucky, he'll die of a massive aneurysm.

>>50133939

We can only hope anon, we can only hope.

>>50133916
>Wrong.

Right.

>Mortals in oWoD were developed largely off the back of the VtM framework.

No shit. Hence 99% of the time.

>>50133790
Sounds like a whole story in and of itself. Blimey, okey dokes.

>>50133806
I presumed that most of the burning ones would die eventually, but leaving a survivor would be fun. The Soldier absolutely has a bolt-hole. He's part of a Korean Bloodline who have emerged from the shadows to claim Japan for themselves based on the huge backlog of grief between the two nations over the last century. The Soldier is a Korean Soldier who served in the Soviet/Japanese War in the 1940's.

The players are in Tokyo and the Zaibatsu as a whole are trying to present a unified front against the Foreigners, but the players are currently led by the only player who read the setting and decided he was going to be: A Japanese National, and a member of one of the Zaibatsu. The players are already in deep trouble with this specific Zaibatsu for having this Soldier escape them once (and accidentally summoning Japanese folklore ghost monsters), and now it's gotten a whole lot worse.

That list will certainly be useful though, thanks anon. What if, hypothetically, the players don't want anything to do with that and they go into hiding? Last time something bad happened (the japanese folklore ghost monster summoning) they buried their heads in the sands and I floundered, what did I do? I resolved "next time I'll get them", and this is that next time.

>>50133863
I figured enough that there wasn't anything distinguishable left of the room, some serious damage to the upper floor and neighbouring buildings. The Kindred inside would mostly be dead, but not before the first respondents got eaten and chewed up nicely. That's the challenging bit, or at least I feel it should be.

>>50133987
Both statements cannot be true. Either they are vampires 99% of the time, or mortals 99% of the time. There is no 198% anon.

#basicmath

>>50134222
>Both statements cannot be true.

There was only one message; that 99% of the time, if the ST is telling the group to roll self control, that's because its a Vampire the Masquerade chronicle.

It would also be pretty stupid and faggoty to have halfway competent normies roll to not be turned on autopilot because they saw a gross corpse.

>>50134022
>The Soldier is a Korean Soldier who served in the Soviet/Japanese War in the 1940's.

Awesome! There are so many people who obsess over the European theatre of WWII, delving into the long history of what led into the Pacific theatre is fresh and interesting. Certainly, anyone from that time that remembers korean boys treated like dogs and girls being told that to serve as a prostitute was a great honour for the imperial Nipponese masters is going to want to nuke every other city in Japan for the sake of honour ALONE.

>What if, hypothetically, the players don't want anything to do with that and they go into hiding?

Then they're refusing an order. That generally doesn't go down well in Japanese organisational structures. I would have the Zaibatsu declare them renegades and declare whatever the local equivalent is for Blood Hunts. At that point, the players only safe option is to join The Soldier's crusade.

>>50134258
>There was only one message; that 99% of the time, if the ST is telling the group to roll self control, that's because its a Vampire the Masquerade chronicle.

And I'm telling you, it happens in Mortal campaigns and Hunters Hunted campaigns. That blows your "99%" assertion into hyperbole territory, whether you choose to accept it or not.

>It would also be pretty stupid and faggoty to have halfway competent normies roll to not be turned on autopilot because they saw a gross corpse.
There are so many things I can say to you, but here's three;
> you're obviously a sheltered little daisy who's never seen a rotting corpse in all it's brown glory, let alone smelt the stench.
> people living in Chrod shouldn't throw stones when it comes to "pretty stupid and faggoty"
> read my lips; full ass-rape stiffness

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>>50134307
Now that sounds fun. I'll have to consider it, this is quite clearly their last chance (they've been told numerous times). Currently there is something of a Blood Hunt on, but a bit more business-like. Coteries have been assigned neighbourhoods to monitor and observe, and the players have drawn an area just outside the tourist hot-bed of Tokyo, on the riverside near a dock. The idea was that I'd be able to build up this little neighbourhood and fill it with characters that the PCs interacted with, and underlay it with an almost Cold-War level of espionage and subterfuge. But oh well, the players weren't too interested in all that. They've made their bed, now to get snuggled in.
>pic related

>>50134389
There's an old military axiom about the long term plans for battle never surviving past the first engagement. It's true for RPG, too. I've had players that have tried the TT equivalent of griefing. The biggest asshole player I ever dealt with was a guy who derailed an entire Apocalypse game before it began by throwing a last minutes hissy fit over how he wanted his character to "not catch the disease that makes Werewolves". I attempted to explain the game concept to him again, only to have him argue with me - the only one who had read the sourcebook - over the true nature of the Triat and all the game elements he thought were stupid.

Holy shit, I wonder if it was Aspel....

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https://en.wikifur.com/w/index.php?title=Werewolf:_the_Forsaken&oldid=236957
>Recieving mixed reviews from the Furry Fandom at large for its apparent anti-anthro tone and concepts,

What did he mean by this?

>>50134559
All I'll say is;
I have four players. One is a Dutch Mekhet who will try to talk down anything, his character is that he's a street magician. The other is an Australian Rail-working Nosferatu, his character line is "I didn't know", his MO is not getting involved. The other is a Romanian Language instructor with a Crack-whore ghoul, the game is a joke and he's trying 500 punch lines to see which one fits. The last is a Ventrue Tzimisce (I asked about it a few threads back I think), the Zaibatsu member. He's only had a session as the character so I'm not sure how he'll go.

On top of this, I have a side character who sometimes turns up, the Romanian vampires girlfriend who is playing a North Korean peasant who drank pool water in Elysium because she thought it'd be funny. I suspect she might drink the antifreeze from the garage for a laugh too. I'm not sure if my expectations were unreasonable or not. But your guy sounds pretty dreadful, did he want to pick and choose bits of the Werewolf curse to have? I've not played any incarnation of Werewolf whatsoever, but that's what it sounds like to me?

Also
>I didn't read the corebook you linked us but you'll walk me through it right?
Every. Fucking. Week.

>>50134649
I dunno, are Forsaken self-hating weres? I know that they suck in combat compared to oWoD. No longer can you shift to Crinos and shred 38 ghouls in body armour with SMG's - you are now a half-powered weakling that shifts back in a few seconds, leading to death by lead poisoning. But hey, you get to be a bland spiritual version of the Minutemen, so there's that

>>50130879
>>Having narratively consistent mechanics is not always better than not having them at all.
>Yes, it is,

Fugging wot. Bullshit.

Some things work basically ONLY as freeform and mechanics only get in the goddamn way.

>>50134666
>did he want to pick and choose bits of the Werewolf curse to have?
Yeah, that's it in one. He wanted to hack out parts of the setting he didn't approve of, fuck the other players.

>>50134742
Oh god. What bits did he want gone? Sounds like we could all do with a laugh

>>50134733
Forget it, Anon. Zie is so fucking rigid that the idea of not having rulesets and dice roll mechanics for zir characters putting on their shoes fills zir with anxiety.

>You need to shit! Roll for Anal Circumference!

>>50134708
Also the unihar was an element explicitly targeted against fursex.

>>50132453
There's already a Mirrored Skin form that overrides all other non-stealthy form appearance downsides like plasma glow.

>>50134708
>No longer can you shift to Crinos and shred 38 ghouls in body armour with SMG's -

You couldn't ever do that

WTF2e are very powerful tho

>>50134649
Furfags are buttmad that they can't have furfag sex in that Werewolf game, unlike Apocalypse which made a big deal about bumping uglies with animals.

>>50134374
>And I'm telling you, it happens in Mortal campaigns and Hunters Hunted campaigns.

Which are unbelievably rare compared to VtM games.

> you're obviously a sheltered little daisy
Projection.

>people living in Chrod shouldn't throw stones when it comes to "pretty stupid and faggoty"

Dem assumptions about preferred editions

>>50134747
* he wanted First Change to happen from an infection (fine for Ratkin, but that wasn't what we were playing)
* he thought the reverence for Gaia was stupid and wanted it removed
* he wanted his character to not take agg. damage from fire
* he wanted twin silver klaives, despite being told that obtaining ONE was a campaign in itself
* he thought Tribes were stupid and wanted everyone else to be Tribeless too
* he couldn't grasp Auspice. Not at all. Even when I painstakingly described it to him.
* he couldn't understand why wolfsbane didn't work but silver did
* he thought the connection between Garou and Luna was stupid, despite being told that it was the source of the silver vulnerability he wanted to keep.

In short, he wanted to play Lon Chaney Junior with a pair of six foot silver knives and no Crinos form.

Naturally, I aborted the whole session and refused to ever play with him again.

>>50134864
I'm not going to pretend I know the technical terms, but those all sound pretty fucking dumb. When you say infection, did he mean like an infected bite or he got an illness that turned him?

>>50134821
>You couldn't ever do that
Stargazer lupus ahroun. End of discussion.

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>>50134708
>Forsaken self-hating weres?
no
>I know that they suck in combat compared to oWoD. No longer can you shift to Crinos and shred 38 ghouls in body armour with SMG's
they use down and dirty rules for that
beat them all with one roll while dodging their gunfire

>>50134831
>Apocalypse which made a big deal about bumping uglies with animals.

Hardly. Polite Garou society generally had you shacking up with your birth group; Homid to Homid, Lupus to Lupus. Metis were sterile and oddly sexless.

>>50132000
>you are not understanding the things that I am saying.

There's a thing you learn taking some courses on writing:

If people don't understand what you wrote, it's your fault, not theirs.

>>50134945
Elaborate, please.

>>50134970
WtA definitely pointed out that the garou are in peril due to such a low quantity of wolf DNA.

>>50135016
>dur we shouldn't have deep concepts in writing because aspel's too dumb to understand

>>50134858
>Which are unbelievably rare compared to VtM games.
How would you even know that? All you can assert with confidence is the games you've seen in your area and on the net. You have no idea what fans are doing offline as close away as the next state.
>Projection
Hardly. You get all edgelord about rotting corpses. Anyone who has had a genuine experience wouldn't be so cavalier. So, yes, sheltered.
>Dem assumptions
Which you do absolutely nothing to stimie. This is the bed you made. Lie in it.

>>50134970
Not exactly what I meant. I meant that there's no impetus to play the 'animal mindset' or overuse the furry-appropriate forms in Forsaken, as there are in Apocalypse. You can't hang out in your 'cool big wolf' Gauru form like you could in Crinos, and there's no impetus to go bang an animal for any reason in Forsaken.

>>50135056
>How would you even know that?
there's only one mortal (not hunt) character sheet in all of wod and most people don't know what book it's in
mortal is stupid af to play wif

>>50135056
>You get all edgelord about rotting corpses.

You're the one who wrote the purposefully edgy description about them.

>>50133130
Hey, it was the employee who argued via the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person said, not the customer.

>>50134914
Sorry, quick translation;
>Gaia - world spirit, spiritual mother to all life
>Klaive - an enchanted silver ritual werewolf blade passed down for generations with a resume of it's asskicking
>Auspice - the stage of the moon a Garou is born under, determines role in pack as well as starting Rage statistic
>Wolfsbane - a small flower that blooms in autumn
>Lon Chaney Junior - a classic black and white movie actor, the first man to play a werewolf on screen, even if he was just a dude with yak hair glued to his face and his nose painted black

And yes, he wanted an infected bite to be what made him a werewolf, not to be tapped on the shoulder by a spiritual calling

>>50135016
Fuck you, Aspel. I hope your arsehole prolapses and they have to take you to the hospital in a squatting position. You can't understand what he's saying because you're either deliberately obtuse, brain damaged or criminally and pathetically stupid. Fuck off and eat pool salt.

>>50135018
>Elaborate, please.

In older editions of Fuzzy: The End that particular Tribe/Breed/Auspice (respectively) combination allowed you to start with bases of 5 for Willpower, Gnosis, and Rage (also respectively) right off the bat. In 20th Stargazers only have 4 Willpower base but it's still a pretty potent combo.

>>50133186
>It's not a matter of misunderstanding you. You just have a flawed point.

What? Impossible. Obviously the point just hasn't been repeated enough times for you to understand it.

>>50135018
it's a particular combination that min-maxxes a character to ridiculous levels. Ahroun start with the most Rage. Lupus start with the most Gnosis. Stargazers start with the most Willpower. To make matters worse, the Lupus breed are restricted in what Abilities they can purchase at creation, leading to stats like Brawl and Dodge getting all the points. True, 65% of people meeting the character would want to leave the room, but do you think such things matter to a guy whose entire shtick is total KKND?

>>50135094
>You're the one who wrote the purposefully edgy description about them.
In a context that made sense, as an ST would describe in a session. What I didn't do was swagger on about what an absolute fag the character must be for wanting to leave the room. Hypocrisy doesn't suit you.

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>>50135022
>>50135214
But.

That post was replying to Aspel?

Aspel, who always complains that people "misread" and "misunderstand" what he says whenever they disagree with him.

You know, every single time.

>>50135125
Hey, props. Not many people watch old media anymore.