D&D 4e General /4eg/

5e is pretty fun

Has anyone used the PoL map in OP for their campaign? How did that turn out?

>>50053151
there was a PoL map?

I have been playing 4e for the past 6 years and never knew that

>>50053203
The OP picture is the PoL map.

>>50053151
I never got to the full world-map but I generally run all my games in Nerath Vale. There used to be a wiki on the WotC site, now dead, that had an updated map, with a number of settlements and points of interest taken from modules. It's a shame they never got around to publishing a PoL gazzetteer.

>>50053050
>To use Monster Manual 3/Monster Vault/Monster Vault: Nentir Vale/Dark Sun Creature Catalog math. Avoid or manually update anything with Monster Manual 1 or 2 math.
So 4.5 D&D not 4.0 D&D?

>>50053324
No, 4.5 is Essentials. Do not use Essentials.

>>50053356
Essentials monster design is actually pretty good, it's just the class design that's garbage

>>50053356
>>50053361
I thought Essentials was the equivalent of the final line of 3.5 material, Book of Nine Swords, PHB2, etc?

>>50053356
There's no problem at all with mixing pre-Essentials and Essentials, besides most Essentials classes being boring as fuck.

>>50053324
Still same edition, everything is compatible. There's no call for numbering it differently.

>>50053356
Or rather, use it with caution.
Everything besides classes in Essentials is good. Classes are generally worse than non-Essentials, but can be worked around.
Both of my current 4e characters are coincidentally Essentials classes and are quite enjoyable, though I sometimes want to cry because of getting useless powers that I can't trade away and that aren't worth even their action cost.

>>50053050
Fart

>>50053389
ecksDeeDee I'm also lolrandumb look at me XDD

>>50053371
You could say the same about 3.5 and 3.0.

>>50053375
>getting useless powers that aren't worth their action cost

Which classes are you playing as? I thought most of the essentials used free actions or no action for their powers

>>50053409
Yes but unlike 3.0, people actually use pre-essentials 4e material for things other than cheesy builds

>>50053412
Summon Warlock's Ally as hexblade.
It gives me a pet which is a waste of actions.
There is never a conceivable situation where I'd want to use their garbage standard action attack instead of my RBA, and they don't have anything else interesting.

>>50053375
Particularly, I loathe the pigeonholing in Essentials class design. You don't HAVE to make a Knight with a heavy blade or hammer and a shield (or a quarterstaff, I know), but if you use anything else you have a bunch of class features that... just don't do anything at all.
And let's not even get started on Thief...

>>50053421
Yeah it can be converted just like 3.0.

>>50053409
3.0 and 3.5 don't have even close to full mechanical compatibility. Essentials and the rest of 4e is fully compatible.

>>50053429
They also tried to force knights to use strength via incredibly stupid methods none of which countered the actual problem of making a str/con defender class in 4e

>>50053423
...I completely forgot hexblades existed

I remembered binders, which are even more useless than hexblades, but totally forgot hexblades

>>50053514
Hey they're good for semi at-will invisibility shenanigans at least

>>50053375
>Or rather, use it with caution.

Essential classes are not even THAT bad, excpet for the Slayer, the Vampire and the nu-Warlock, and maybe the Executioner.

>>50053409
No you can't. 3.5 superceded most of 3.0, and all unconverted material is technically not valid. Essentials might be bad, but are perfectly usable alongside "regular" 4e.

So are there any good reference documents/threads/whatever about the Points of Light setting, or would I need to hunt through all the books myself if I wanted to read up on it?

>>50053409
Have you ever looked at the 3.0->3.5 conversion document? Tons of things got changed or made incompatible.

They removed multiple skills from the game! The changes to spells were also extremely broad - not just stuff like Haste no longer giving a partial action, either, but also stuff like changing names and removing some spells from certain classes entirely.

I mean, fuck, you saw how I wrote "partial action" up there? That's a standard action. The entire action economy was different in 3.0.

Also, of course, the wide rework of monster hit dice. And Rangers were ass.

You should read up on it some day if you haven't already - there's a lot of changes that aren't too obvious when you look into it after the fact.

>>50053745
The Wayback Machine should have a version of the old wiki. Eventually I will make a PDF with all that collected info, but I never have time.

>>50053050
I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record, but I'm not a fan of this pasta.
1. advocates using a pre-errata piece of rules and that is a can of worms.
2. is too harsh. "Reworked monster math" is a correction to average damage and reduction of solo HPs, nothing more. "Avoid MM1 and 2" makes it sound like you have to throw out two whole books, when it's a matter of a few seconds of correction.
3. I can get behind, but is it really necessary to NOT tell players you are in a SC?

>>50053832
>2. is too harsh. "Reworked monster math" is a correction to average damage and reduction of solo HPs, nothing more. "Avoid MM1 and 2" makes it sound like you have to throw out two whole books, when it's a matter of a few seconds of correction.
The never monsters also have better game design in general in what they do - MM1 monsters in particular can get pretty boring since, naturally, they're the first ones they made and the designers weren't entirely aware of what did and didn't work.

>>50053832
Personally my solution to skill challenges is to only use them for chase scenes, since I only use them for chase scenes and use them for every chase scene, I never need to tell my players that a chase scene is a skill challenge, because they all know a skill challenge is coming the moment a chase starts

>>50053884
>The never monsters also have better game design in general in what they do - MM1 monsters in particular can get pretty boring since, naturally, they're the first ones they made and the designers weren't entirely aware of what did and didn't work.

I'm well aware of that, and I agree, but it's still not what the OP says. That's why I'm advocating for a more precise rewrite, one that makes us sound less one-true-wayist.

>>50053832
>3. I can get behind, but is it really necessary to NOT tell players you are in a SC?
That actually directly contradicts advice I've heard before about skill challenges (at least if this guy knows what he's talking about): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvOeqDpkBm8

>>50053923
IME, you can do both. You can have skill challenges as emerging frames for what would be normally just "freeform" scenes, or you can announce them in order to promote player input. It depends on your group. It's also true that skill challenges are one of the most attacked aspects of 4e, when they actually are a thing that a lot of other games do (but they aren't D&D so they don't matter).

>>50053832
>>50053884
Perhaps it should be rephrased to say that the newer monsters are better designed, and MM3 and forward uses different numerical guidelines.

>3. I can get behind, but is it really necessary to NOT tell players you are in a SC?
It's not necessary, but for a lot of people it helps with immersion, avoiding the problem of people just going "I roll Athletics at it!"

>>50053734
>and all unconverted material is technically not valid.
Actually, technically it is valid, you're just expected to do essential conversions (Wilderness Lore -> Survival) yourself.

This is obvious from the fact that 3.0 unconverted creatures, prestige classes, etc are still referenced as usable in 3.5 material.

>>50053745
Anon, please see >>50054038

>>50054062
The fact that there is a conversion document rather proves the point that the systems are not compatible, though.

>Do you have any fun homebrew scenarios?

One which was basically Steel Ball Run but in an Eberron-yet-Roman Empire-at-its-largest-like world with weaponry from Ioun who was the main goddess of the whole deal.

>>50051919
How simple do you want to get?

Scout is literally dual axes: the class. You do nothing but hit things with your axes.

>>50054038
Really?

I thought the only 3.0 material 3.5 references are things they updated (half the padding in the Complete X books was updating PrCs from 3.0 books)

>>50054116
Eberron before the current era was actually goblinoid Rome, IIRC.

>>50053050
Currently playing in a fun homebrew setting where the feywild and natural world occupy the same plane of existance, and entering the feywild is as easy as walking too far away from any center of civilization and the whole world is centered around fantasy Rome run by dwarves. The DM has a whole lot of cool lore for the setting beyond that, but I'd never be able to describe it in a way that lives up to the experience

>>50054158
Sounds fun.

>>50054158
Pity, I'd like to hear more

>>50054150
I mean in terms of technology, really. So you've a Half-Elf empire (they reproduce like crazy and mastered the arts of psionics and the arcane, proceeding to conquer the main area of the game) in a Rome-like empire around a big lake slightly larger than the Mediterannean and some extra islands around this main one, while Humans are effectively Jews, Elves are German tribes and Dwarfs are the guys in North Africa and Iberia all the way to Anatolia, Tieflings in the Balkans and with tech roughly equivalent to Eberron, on a desperate chase after six parts of Ioun's weaponry which is disguised as a celebration but it's really being used by the Emperor to attain infinite power.

Quite the ride.

>>50054472
>>50054517
My DM browses /tg/, maybe he'll show up and share more

>>50054038
But that's actually not true. Unconverted material that is not included in the document became unusable. You *could* use it at home but there was a lot of wonkiness. ANd most of it was converted anyway, to pad out more books.

>>50054158
Good, anon. I'm very happy about my current campaign myself.

We started as courtiers in 1300 Milan, as the city was under a coup d'etat. We fled through half of Italy, betrayed by many of our former friends, until we got to Florence, home of the last trustworthy ally we had. He tasked us with recovering a holy relic of Justice, that could help us in our fight. We tracked it to the tower where a nobleman was confined to death a century before (this is a reference to Dante's Inferno). Under the tower was an hellish dungeon, and at its center the slain children of the nobleman, fused into a giant undead abomination. We barely managed to defeat it and retrieve the relic, when we were blinded by the apparition of a divine emissary. We ended the last session in Hell, in sight of Satan himself.

The game is great and the DM, while new, is putting in a lot of effort in the details. It does help that most of us have some background in literary studies, so we're relatively familiar with the source material. The campaign is probably going to consist in the ascent through hell, sort of a reverse Inferno. Plus, I'm not the DM for once, so that's great.

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>TFW I get two free 4e splatbooks but no games to play them with.

>>50055921
Which ones, anon?

>>50056185
Divine Power and Eberron Player's Guide

>>50055921
The Guild Living Campaign on roll20, look it up.
Constant easy-to-find games as long as mandatory voice chat isn't an obstacle for you.

>>50056784
Thank you.

>>50056823
I live to please.

>>50056480
Dragon 378 has an article that details Domain info for the Eberron deities. Might want to look into it

So where should I go if I'm interested in reading about PoLand?

>>50055053
>But that's actually not true. Unconverted material that is not included in the document became unusable.
Sounds like something you just made up, but on the off chance you're not a liar, source?

>>50057649
Off the top of my head: some PRCs in the late books of 3.0 had stacking critical bonuses that were explicitly disallowed in 3.5. Some skills and feats were replaced or outright removed (innuendo for ex) taking with them everything that used them as a prerequisite. Another anon upthread has a few more examples.
The complete series reintroduced most of these things, or functional equivalents, but before they came out using 3.0 material was a crapshoot due to all the minute changes, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone allow mixing.

>>50057649
The Wizards Police wouldn't come to your house and shoot you if you used 3.0 stuff, but the two weren't meant for mixing.

>>50058042
>>50058067
>>50057649

The only 3.0 splat I saw allowed somewhat regularly was Oriental Adventures.

Sweet, sweet iaijutsu focus...

>>50058042
One fun (and weird) example came up in an optimization contest: BOVD's Thrall of Orcus has this ability:
>Pallor of Death (Su): A 6th-level thrall of Orcus can adopt the appearance of a humanoid undead creature of her choosing as if she had cast the alter self spell. While in this form, the thrall has an aura of fear (as the fear spell cast by a 6th-level caster) that affects only living nonoutsiders within 25 feet. Pallor of death lasts for 1 minute per class level and can be used once per day.

What's up with it? Well, here's how Alter Self works in 3.5:
>http://www.d20srd dot org/srd/spells/alterSelf dot htm
And here's the 3.0 version (scroll down a bit):
>http://www.dragon dot ee/30srd/spellsa dot htm

Notice how the latter is almost entirely cosmetic while the former introduces a bunch of extra benefits? Yeah. 3.0 Alter Self is basically Greater Disguise Self - 3.5 Alter Self is Lesser Polymorph Self.

Similar issue pop up all over the place when you try to use unupdated 3.0 material that references updated 3.5 material.

Fuck, did you know that the 3.0 feat Expert Tactician, from Sword and Fist, got updated/nerfed TWICE? Once in 3.0 itself, in Song and Silence, and then again in 3.5's Complete Adventurer. The original was almost at-will 3.0 Haste, and the CA one is unrecognizable.

>>50058067
>twf Wizards Police raped my dog

>>50058729
>tfw they murdered my father and turned my mother into a newt

>>50058995
Did she at least get better, Anon?

>>50059159
She lived the remainder of her life happily as a newt. Does that count?

>>50059284
Depends on whether or not it was due to being a newt, or your father's murder.

>>50053832
>"Avoid MM1 and 2" makes it sound like you have to throw out two whole books, when it's a matter of a few seconds of correction.
Depends a bit. MM1 and 2 have more 'fuck you' monsters effects than MM3, with frequent use of daze and stun that slow combat down by just telling players they can't do anything that round.

But yes, there are still monsters in 1&2 that can be used perfectly well with ten seconds of number swapping.

They can be used perfectly well without the number adjustment, too, it's just a matter of combat taking longer that way.

>>50059359
I'll take both.

>>50053409
>You could say the same about 3.5 and 3.0.
Yes, it was a poor choice of nomenclature. At-best, it should be called 3e revised, and has lead to a number of misconceptions in Autists about how much difference constitutes a whole edition change, due to the implication that the minutia between 3 and 3.5 constitutes half an edition change.
>>50053324
>So 4.5 D&D not 4.0 D&D?

Similarly, calling 4e, using fixes 4.5 is silly. At its core it's still 4e, just with better math. That's not half an edition-change.

Dead thread.

>>50057584

Unfortunately, there is no PoLand source book. It's just sort of scattered around all the books, and some of the board games.
Which board game was it that had the world map? Was it Wrath of Ashardalon? Did that have any fluff?

>>50061879
Conquest of Nerath, and yeah, it had some.

>>50061879
Speaking of fluff, here is a site that details pretty much everything

http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=15210

>>50062051
That's what I was thinking of.

But yeah, I don't think there's one book with all of the PoLand material consolidated.

But that's part of the charm I think. That the setting is so fragmented. You get a real sense of exploration and wonder not just from playing in it and reading about it, but from hunting for things to read about it.

>>50062112

The Fell's Five IDW comic series was probably the most charming use of PoLand.

>>50062083
Neat! Thanks.

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>>50062132
>Fell's Five
Why must you remind me of my lost love, anon?

>>50062132

I cannot believe I still have not read that yet. I think some anons even posted a storytime a while back, but I missed it. :(

Wasn't that written by one of the guys from Leverage?

>>50062220

John Rogers, I remember it because it's a very piratical name...and we never got those pirate adventures.

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>>50053050
>Which setting is your favourite one?

There have been quite a few attempts made at 4E clones. A lot of them drift off in other directions due to the designer's urge to tinker and innovate.

At what point does an attempted 4E clone stop being a 4E clone to you?

>>50062162
No problem. The more I read about PoLand the more I want to play games in it.

>>50062970

The Iron Circle was later for 4E, right? Those guys got fleshed out in the second Monster Vault, I think.

>>50063388
I think so, same with Vailin and stuff too.

>>50059650
The point is, essentials never was a revision of 4e. 4e had living errata and updates the whole time, but essentials did not rewrite previous material. Slayer is a new fighter but it did not invalidate old fighter. On the other hand 3.5 is explicitly a revision.

An ancient blog post I found, but one that concerns a topic I've been thinking about all day.

http://www.leonineroar.com/?p=3191

What do you guys think about initiative in 4E?

Problems:
Taking time out to roll and calculate initiative in the beginning
Long wait time between turns (players zone out/don't pay attention)
Players don't always take their turns in order (players delay)
The space between one player's turn and another (handing over initiative) can take some time
Tracking initiative for monsters can be bothersome

What are your fixes?

>>50063667
I have never found 4e initiative to be problematic. Primarily because 4e offers so many out-of-turn actions so actual player downtime is not a huge amount of time.

Keeping track of monster turns can be a pain, but typically I roll for monster initiative in groups. to cut down on that

>>50063667
I've never really had an issue with 4e default initiative. I think more problems arise if you do group initiative. The winning side just wallops the other, with PCs clearing out minions before they even become a factor and debuffing bigger monsters into uselessness, or monsters simply pummeling one of the PCs into oblivion before anyone can step in to help.

The game is designed to favor individual initiative with a bunch of powers/bonuses/etc catered to that. If you're really having a problem with players zoning out between turns then either some of your players are spending too long doing nothing a turn or the bored player simply doesn't like 4e combat

>>50063667
This is my house rule for initiative:
>Initiative check at the start of combat, difficulty 10+highest init mod of monsters
>PCs who pass the check act
>Monsters act together
>PCs act together

The method favors the PCs a bit, but not dramatically so. I had to introduce this rule to remove some book-keeping cause I was playing with a group of morons that regularly forgot whose turn it was; this way PC turns happen consecutively in any order so there's no need to worry. In the rare cases when a monster uses special initiative tricks, I play that as is.

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>>50062184

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>>50063573
>On the other hand 3.5 is explicitly a revision.
Yes, which is why I suggested calling it 3e Revised.

>>50063814
This. Basically you have the PCs roll individually, and have groups of monsters act on initiatives of their own. I usually break it down by, Minions, Standards, Elites, and then Solos, and then by roles and which ones work well together. Brutes+Lurkers, Soldiers+Skirmishers, and Artillery+Controllers. Basically cut back on the book keeping a bit and allows for monsters to act tactically.

>>50063667
I've been thinking about trying SotDL initiative out, and having players and creatures pick between Fast and Slow Turns, just to see how it would mesh with the action economy. I don't expect it will be a good fit, but might as well run a one shot and see what it do.

>>50063667
>houseruling initiative
WHY?
It's super easy to track in just about any virtual tabletop.
And if you're playing IRL, there are apps for that, too.

>>50065397
Like hell I allow electronics at my table.

>>50065757
You can ban electronics for players, but use them yourself as a DM. As long as you aren't being a dick about it and are only using electronics to help game flow, that is.

>>50064217
My gropu just worte it down on a whiteboard or something. Hard to forget who's turn is next when you can literally point to it

>>50065757
I've never really got the issue with electronics distracting players. I've only ever seen one player get phone distracted, and it was the guy that always complained he'd rather be playing 3.5. I figured if your players are so easily distracted, they don't really want to play anyway; banning their phones only means they'll complain more often

Man axe support really is pretty sad. Seems like even maces had more going on for them

>>50066328
Axes have Headsman's chop. And Scout.

I can't offhand recall what maces have (that feat that slows on AoOs?)

>>50066366
Don't maces share feats with hammers?

Makes me wonder why mace is a weapon type at all, since it feels like it would be simpler to just classify it as a hammer.

>>50066328
Axes have some nice stuff, although they share most of it with heavy blades, which are generally better weapons

Headsmans' chop, battlecrazed weapons, jagged weapons, holy avenger weapons, etc.

The only thing axes have that is good and unique to axes is the Rending weapon enchantment

>>50063667
Doesn't this cover initiative in most games tho?
I can't think of many games where it doesn't apply, or isn't resolved by players/the gm being on the ball.

>>50066390
Partially, but there are several feats specific to one or the other. Hammer Rhythm, Dizzying Mace, etc.

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>>50066366
>scout
>essentials class
gross

>>50066605
Could be worse, anon. Could be vampire.

Doing some bookwork to get a campaign going, and wondering, what bonuses stack with each other?
Enhancement and Feat bonuses do not, but do others?
I'm struggling to find the rules on riding mounts, are there feats for it?
>I only have phb1 and DMG1, decided to read them first before going forward

>>50066605
>human scout with throw and stab

It's pretty fun actually.

>>50066646
>Enhancement and Feat bonuses do not
They do.
Bonuses from different sources stack, the same sources do not. It's also important that the source state what kind of bonus it's providing: a feat may say "+2 feat bonus" or "+2 bonus"; the former will not stack with any other feat bonus, the latter is an untyped bonus and will stack with any other bonus from any source

>>50066646
Nothing stacks with bonuses of the same type. Everything stacks with untyped bonuses or bonus of different types

That is all there is to it, for specific cases, look at the bonus types involved.

>>50066646
>I'm struggling to find the rules on riding mounts, are there feats for it?
There's the Mounted Combat feat, PHB1, p199.

Though the rules for mounted combat are in the DMG, oddly enough. Page 46 of DMG1.

>>50066781
Pretty sure mount rules got changed since then, I'd look to the Rules Compendium.

>>50053050
What the heck is this map and why does it have the Temple of Elemental Evil on it, when that place should be in Greyhawk?

>>50066917
It also has the Tomb of Horrors and White Plume Mountain. Does this upset you?

Jokes aside, those places just exist in PoLand, too. Because it's the default setting and it'd be awkward to publish revisits of classic modules that can't take place there.

>>50066646
Seems all the other fears for mounted combat are scattered across dragon magazines. Probably best off just using the character builder

>>50067080
Alright, I was using the funyum thing and it pointed the way.
So, when is touhoufag coming back.
The one anon said he gets banned then comes back after a few months? Wanted some ideas about a dwarf avenger.

>>50065026

I'm not familiar with SotDL initiative-- is that Shadow of the Demon Lord? How does that work?

>>50067130
There's one pp that might be of interest: hammer of judgement I believe it was. Focuses on push effects with hammers, which is kinda odd for avengers but hey, it's got flavor

>>50066917
Technically this map appeared first in a board game, and the classic dungeons were there as a way to score points. Some of these areas were later expanded for RPG use in Dragon magazine.

>>50067211
And before that?

>>50067321
Put your STR bonus to good use by multiclassing fighter for fighter only feats? Use the polearm hammer dwarven weapon training gives you for polearm momentum?

>>50067905
>polearm hammer
??

>>50067966
...

I could have sworn there's one.

Whelp, guess I'm dumb!

>>50068010
Seems like an embarassing absence given all the polearm support

>>50067130
dwarf avenger guide

Step 1. Attribute setup(including racial bonus): 13/13/16/10/18/8. Be a pursuit avenger, they're the best avengers
Step 2: Worship a Diety of the skill domain. You NEED the skill domain.
Step 3: Take overwhelming strike as an at-will and aspect of might as your level 1 daily. The other at-will and your level 1 encounter are less clear-cut
Step 4: Power of skill feat. Take it, use it forever
Step 5: Other feats you need from later levels: Unarmored agility, improved defenses, dwarven weapon training, spear expertise
Step 6: Look for attack powers that aren't standard action attacks and take them. Avengers are amazing at off-turn and minor action attacks
Step 7: Use. A. Gouge.
Step 8: Ardent Champion PP at paragon and Painful oath feat

>>50067905
Never use a polearm as an avenger, Oath of Enmity only works on adjacent enemies, so reach weapons are effectively useless to most avengers, and actively harmful for charging avengers

>>50068063
there was some feat that let you get adjacent on a charge with polearms

>>50066917
Why does Greyhawk have the Keep on the Borderlands, Isle of Dread and Lost City of Cynidecea on it?

Well, they just want to keep updating old adventures and import them (in a more generic, modular fashion) into the generic setting de joure. (Although the Return to the Keep on the Borderlands thing was more Mystara being a dead setting at the point rather than Greyhawk being the "default" 2E setting. And Cynidecea is only in Greyhawk by virtue of it being 3E's default setting. The Isle of Dread totally counts, though.)

See also: 4E making the Isle of Dread a time-travelling there-one-day-gone-the-next island in the Feywild, and 5E sticking the Isle of Dread into the new Elemental Plane of Water. Man, that module really got around.

More relevantly for this specific map, though, it was made for a boardgame and those dungeons had some mechanical function. I think they gave you victory points or some shit like that? Or you could send heroes into them to get stuff? Fuck, I dunno.

>>50068042
I think an execution axe might actually be better for a dwarf ardent champion with all that crit-fishing. You could pick up two-handed weapon expertise instead of spear expertise to get your charging bonuses

>>50068121
The extra damage an execution axe presents on a crit still amounts to less damage overall for even an avenger than the gouge provides without the high crit property. Even if you're using a jagged weapon. Because spear support is fantastic

>>50068094
Still a waste

Spending a feat and using a lower-damage weapon in order to do what could be done with any non-reach weapon without a feat

Don't get me wrong, it's a good feat for fighters, but Avengers need to be adjacent to their target to do everything, fighters only need to be adjacent to do mark punishment

>>50068183
Just saying, if there's some polearm shenanigans anon wants exploited it can be done

>>50068042
If themes re allowed, don't forget to pick up the Samurai.

>>50068042
Looking through things. Invigorating pursuit feat is amazing and is in heroic.

>>50068937
Polearm Momentum works with spears as well, Battle Awareness is an amazing multiclass feat, Pursuit Avenger putting a couple points is Str qualify for both just like that, and dwarf Weapon Training gets you the Gouge and a damage bonus. It's frankly quite ideal. Also not impossible you find a better PP among Fighter/Martial stuff than you would among Avenger ones (because they suck).

>>50067204
Yea, it is. The basic gist of it is...
>You choose to either do a Fast Turn (1 Standard or Move action, 1 Minor Action), or Slow Turns (1 Standard, 1 Move, 2 Minors).
>Players act before Monsters, but Monsters pick from the turn types themselves.
>A creature taking a Fast turn will go first based on however the team decides to act. Slow Turns go after in the same manner.

I think it might go fine on some degrees, but that SotDL gives 2 Minors on a slow turn makes me think certain builds might shine a bit too hard. Guess we'll see. Might run a Level 20 one shot to get a good idea of what sort of bullshit one could pull with the system.

I have been itching to do some weird build and I have been looking at the Rogue a lot, most importantly, Riposte Strike.

How would you leverage Riposte Strike to get enemies into a catch 22? I have been thinking about

> putting it on a defender (fighter? Knight? Berserker?) with half-elf
> hybrid Fighter or Paladin (champion of justice)
> be a ghetto defender with Vigilante theme, Vigilante Justice style, Battle Awareness, etc.

>>50053050
I'm kinda new to 4e so I need some advice. Between a Shaman and an Ardent which would earn the most value in a party? Also is Psion a valid control character choice?

>>50071913
I prefer Shaman, Ardent is generally considered not that great as far as I know. Both are tricky, but I like playing around with the spirit more.

Psion is valid, not as good as the top togs

>>50071689
What I did:
>vigilante theme/vigilante justice style
>hybrid fighter
>blade bravo pp

>>50071946
Does Runepriest even function or is it kinda dead right outta the gate?

>>50071913
shaman is better supported as far as I'm aware, and spirit companion is more versatile. I recall Ardents had AC troubles too, being a melee leader with poor armor proficiencies.
All controllers are valid choices except seeker and psion has some wonderfully fun reality warping powers, but like all psionics don't have as much support as other sources.

>>50072070
It's pretty solid actually, it just has virtually no support. Shame really, rune states is a very interesting mechanic

>>50072070
It's fine, it got some dragon mag support that makes it pretty good.

Is there any way to make a ruthless ruffian rogue not shit?

>>50072378
By ____________________nope.

>>50072411
Would it be worth it to paragon multiclass ranger for twin strike and get disheartening ambush to make it rattling? You'll lose one SA die, but get STR*2 with twin strike and whatever other multiattack powers you poach

The problem is that ruthless ruffian doesn't have any support at all that'd make it be worth it. The weapons it allows you to use are worse than light blades, generally, and you can rattle with other attacks just fine.

And RR powers also need CHA for some reason.

You are just infinitely better off taking the multiclass feat, then grabbing some methods of getting rattling on your attacks with another class.

That said, Disheartening Ambush to make all your other powers rattle, then mace expertise+some sort of repositioning combo could pay dividents as some sort of control-focused rogue.

>>50072936
I don't think anyone here tried that. Good luck.

>>50071913
Shamans are the 2nd best leaders in the game behind warlords. Ardents are a perfectly fine class, but are not as good as shamans

Psions are also a perfectly fine class, unfortunately wizards can do everything they can do and better. Because wizards get all the nice things

>>50072070
Runepriest has very limited options, but none of the options it has are weak. Just remember to go str/wis so you can have two usable NADs instead of one

>>50073259
The other problem is that its class feature explicitly only works clubs and maces. Not the mace weapon group, just those two particular weapons, and those two weapons are really bad weapons

>>50073259
>>50073263
Welp I did it. Paragon multiclass ruthless ruffian, martial archetype ED just for even more ranger multiattack/minor attack powers. Combined with half-orc it looks like it can dish out pretty high nova damage by mid paragon, but it's feat hungry as hell and there's little I can do to patch the awful accuracy of a 16/16 split with +2 prof weapons.

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>>50075299
TY dubs man. Narrowed things down a little for me. As a player coming from 3.pf and 5e which of the 3 good ones (Shaman, Runepriest and Psion) would be the easist to pick up? I played a shaman for 3 sessions about 5 years ago and enjoyed how I always seemed helpful if that matters.

>>50076272
Runepriest is the easiest to build, but their rune-state stuff may be a bit confusing in-combat. Whereas shaman is a bit trickier on the build side, but the easiest to play

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>>50076374
I'll build them both then and check back in a bit to see if I messed everything up. You guys in here are super helpful.

Are scrolls that have rituals upon them destroyed when copied?
Are scrolls of spells?

>>50080270
no, copying a scroll is not "using" it

no, spells are arcane powers, there are however wands of spells

>>50080487
I read that wizards can copy down more spells in their spellbook, rather than being restricted to their level gain powers, just have to swap them in.

>>50080605
The DM can allow it as special loot I guess, but you are usually limited to 2 dailies/slot.

>>50080632
>The DM can allow it as special loot I guess
It says it right in the phb entry for them, dude.
Why does it need to be "special loot" if it's apparently something that is supposed to be found in the course of the game?

>>50068117
>Well, they just want to keep updating old adventures and import them (in a more generic, modular fashion) into the generic setting de joure
There's sort of an after-the-fact lore explanation now: at this point they've committed to the idea of a broader encompassing multiverse that unifies all settings (even homebrewed ones) in a Spelljammer/Planescape sort of way, with part of the idea being that classic adventures, spells, and items are eventualities, the result of machinations by beings and gods who can reach between dimensions, or otherwise impressions in closely related versions of existence by these big concentrations of power as if it's some arcane equivalent of quantum entanglement.

Incidentally this also explains why all these totally different settings use the same rules and stats for 90% of anything you'll do in D&D.

>>50080658
Scrolls are specific to Rituals only now. You do not find scrolls of regular attack or utility spells. Though you could, as >>50080632 said, have it be special loot. In no where in the PHB does it mention anything about class powers being applied to scrolls. Hell, you can't even copy scrolls into a ritual book.

>>50080658
>phb entry

Well, the PHB is out of date and I don't have one on hand anyway. Do you mean this (from the compendium)?

> Like mages, arcanists gravitate to the adventuring life because it gives them the chance to discover interesting new spells and rituals to add to their spellbooks. Though they might lack focus, arcanists prove themselves equal to their schoolspecialist counterparts in both learning ability and application of that knowledge, and are counted as valued members of any expedition.

This is fluff. The powers you get as you level are the spells your wizard discovers. Your DM may allow you to put spells into your book on top of those, but there's no built in option for that, as far as I know (there may be some magic item that's not a wand though).

>Daily and Utility Powers: Your spellbook also holds your wizard daily attack powers and wizard utility powers (not including your cantrips). You begin with two daily attack powers in your spellbook, one of which you can use on any given day. Each time you gain a level that lets you select a wizard daily attack power or a wizard utility power, choose two different powers of that type at that level and add them to your book.
>After each extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily attack powers and utility powers according to what you can use per day for your level (see the Wizard Powers Prepared per Day table). You can’t prepare the same power twice on the same day.

>>50080720
Didn't know you can't copy rituals actually. It makes some amount of sense, since a ritual scroll also contains the components of the ritual, the full package so to say; it'd be like copying from a RAR file by hand without unzipping it first.

Well, you can copy from book to book I think, so you could hand out ritual booklets.

>>50080720
>>50080487
Oh, I see then.
But.... hmm, gonna look at the phb again.

>>50080747
>Well, you can copy from book to book I think, so you could hand out ritual booklets.
You can yes. It even explicitly states as such in the entry for it under the ritual section. It does make for good loot too.

Is there a way to make blaster wizard good?

>>50081477
Be genasi, take the power that lets you add your STR to damage.

Possibly better with evoker mage.

>>50081477
>>50081489
Stormsoul genasi using promise of storm with the elemental echo feat can do some decent damage, added to the elemental empowerment feat adding strength to damage. Heroic has the enlarge spell feat, and paragon has the resounding thunder feat to add 1 to thunder blasts and bursts. Use with arcane admixture.

Tiefling for fire stuff.

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I'm playing a flail fighter and to my surprise my gm has allowed me to take the mark of the storm feat.

To me this combo sounds ridiculously strong, especially in conjunction with spiked chain training.

Am I overestimating the strength of this or will I now render his encounters trivial?

>>50081643
A friend of mine made a fighter who could slide 20 in a single round when actually trying.
It's basically golf instead of D&D at that point.

>>50081643
Without a way to do reliable Lightning or Thunder damage, you won't be too strong. Might be fairly sticky with such a means though, but hard to say you'll trivialize an entire fight. Multiple dangerous targets with lots of slippery movement abilities can make it hard to keep things in check. Also your own party comp you have to worry about.

So as a defender, you'll be plenty sticky with a good array of lightning damage to back your Mark up. On your own though, it might be a back fire depending on your party comp vs the enemy comp. Lurkers can hurt like a son of a bitch after all. Especially if there are plenty of minions to Aid Attack.

>>50081687
Lightning weapons?

>>50081489
For added fun, be a pyromancer mage with the master of flame PP, and multiclass into a barbarian

Then take the reincarnate champion ED and take tiefling as your first past life, to also grab hellfire blood and hellfire arcanist

>>50081962
Well that's the obvious idea, but it's also setting and DM dependent sometimes. You usually don't just buy a Lightning Weapon without a good magic market or a Ritualist in your party.

How would one go about building an intimidatomancer?

>>50082169
Probably wizard buffing arcana and then using a utility power to swap it for intimidate.

Then just intimidate foes into submission after bloodying them until your DM has enough of it.

>>50082169
Dragonborn race, wizard(mage) class, nethermancy school, dragonfrear racial power instead of dragonbreath, haunted blade theme (If you're using themes), intimidation of the dragon feat, fear walker paragon path

>>50082265
Alternatively, half-orc race, any strength rogue build, vigilante theme, disheartening strike at-will, strong-arm tactics & untamed berserker style feats, bloodfury savage paragon path

Become half-orc batman

>>50081477
If you don't mind being the magical equivalent of a 3E-style "full attack all the time" Fighter, I've heard good things about the Elementalist.

Not actually a Wizard, but, well. It fits the archetype to a T.

http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Tactical-Warpriest.html

How RAW should I take the level 16 feature? As it reads, you put on an encounter long mark... but the target only provokes once... but he also provokes at range.

http://funin.space/compendium/power/Fading-Strike.html

Ranged opportunities /tg/.

Ranged. Opportunities.

>>50082909
>How RAW should I take the level 16 feature? As it reads, you put on an encounter long mark... but the target only provokes once... but he also provokes at range.

So long as you keep refreshing the mark, you should be able to keep using the provoke ability too. At least, that's how I infer it.

>>50082909
You can refresh the mark to refresh the punish

>>50082909
>but he also provokes at range.
He explicitly has to be adjacent to you.

>>50083102
That's what I get for not reading the one in the compendium.

Dangit, I wanted a ranged defender so hard...

>>50083115
>ranged defender
so swordmage?

>>50083155
Swordmage teleports in/teleports him back, so he's still quite melee imo.

Except I guess Shielding...

>>50083115
Play a paladin wielding a drow long knife

divine challenge needs you to be adjacent at first, but after that you don't have to be adjacent at all so long as you attack the target once per round

>>50083180
Was just thinking about that. I guess I'll see how that works.

>>50083180
You also get the Sword beam level 7 encounter power, which is a ranged attack you make with a melee weapon

>>50083115
The standard practice for that is paladin|warlock hybrid abusing the divine challenge/hellish rebuke combo

>>50083180
You never need to be adjacent with divine challenge. It's a close burst 5, and to keep the mark you have to end your turn adjacent OR have attacked it that turn. The punishment itself has no range; it'll technically go of if your foe teleported halfway across the world and kicked your dog

>>50083435
my mistake

>>50083180
>tfw I'll never be a paladin wielding a drow

>>50084594
>Not having a Drow Rogue as your melee weapon
I bet you don't even abuse your Sanction either, knave.

>>50082909
God damn it. I spent a while looking for options for that. There's a bunch of unerrata'd abilities that would give ranged opportunities, but they're all way too dispersed and too situational to build around.

why do my players insist on making armor and weapons out of monster parts
> no rules for this in 4e
how you you DM's handle this request?

>>50086812
Instead of giving out nonsensical loot, count harvested monster parts as ritual component for create magic weapon/armor ritual (and let martials take those). Worth +20% if used for something in theme, -20% if against theme (i.e. trying to make frost weapon from a fire dragon's fang).

>>50086812
I believe by the rules monster parts can be distilled into residuum, the same magic goop that makes up magic items. It's a 1=1 translation of units to gold value, so I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to make a more in depth system for making monsters into magic items. Perhaps some equation involving the monster's level and weight?

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If an attack has more than one elemental keyword (say, cold and necrotic) and an enemy has uneven resistances to those keywords (say they only have resist 5 Necrotic, or resist 10 necrotic and resist 5 cold), do I calculate damage based on the higher or lower/nonexistent resistance?

>>50087091
I think it's always the highest resist.

>>50087091
If a monster is resistant to one on element of an attack but not the other is takes full damage, so I imagine it's based on the lower resistance.

If a monster has resistance 10 nec/5 cold and it's hit with 30 nec/cold, it takes 25 damage.

>>50087152
Gotcha, so if for example all my fire attacks are dual-keyword, would it be redundant to a degree to get the Burn Everything feat?

>>50087194
If ALL of them do, then yeah it'd be redundant, but I'm curious as to how you achieved that

>>50053429
>>50053488

I'm a fan of my eladrin knight who multiclasses swordmage and uses Int for melee basic attacks.
Half elves (in paragon) can also go pure con with an at will eldritch strike. That's pretty cool.

>>50053423
At least you can probably make use of the ally in out of combat situations?

>>50053718
They're fine in heroic, but after paragon they seriously drop off.

>>50087244
Malec-Keth Janissary's 16th level perk, lets you add 1d4 damage of an elemental type to all your attacks. Weapon of Summer also lets you add 1+Enhancement-Bonus fire damage to your attacks.

I'm trying out a fire-centric Swordmage build for shits and giggles, but I know that fire damage is resisted by something like 13% of monsters so negating resistance is a fun little challenge on top.

>>50086812
>>50086966
>>50086979
Magic items can be broken down into 20% of their value in residuum. Whether this is how much of it actually is residuum or how much is recoverable is unknown. If the former, the rest of the value is for labor and use the 20% as the amount the PCs would need to collect from the appropriate monsters

The DMG has a list of the appropriate wealth of treasure parcels per level, so you can use that as a basis for how much residuum PCs should get for an encounter with monsters of a particular level

>>50087314
>Malec-Keth Janissary's 16th level perk, lets you add 1d4 damage of an elemental type to all your attacks.
Does it add that keyword to the base attacks though, or is the elemental damage counted separately? I forget how precisely it works in 4e, but I think extra damage effects are counted separately and don't add their keywords to the triggering powers unless it explicitly says it does

>>50087321
Note that as of the last update you disenchant uncommon items at 50% and rare items at 100%.

For the other Anon, you can also go the route of boons: consumed monster parts give a unique special effect equivalent to items.

>>50087407
From page 115 of the rules compendium:
>"If a power gains or loses damage types, the power gains the keywords for any damage types that are added, and loses the keywords for any damage types that are removed."

So to my understanding, whatever element of damage the MKJ adds to the attack is also added as a keyword to the power, and would thus proc feats and abilities that work on that keyword. Of course I could be wrong on this interpretation.

>>50087480
I'd go with your interpretation, mine might be muddled by many 5e games and too long not playing 4e

>>50066427
Rending weapon with an offhand staff of the traveler or something is some shit, let me tell you.

>>50066556
Dizzying Mace on an invoker who got it as a weapliment (through an enchantment, don't remember which) is some serious lockdown. Like psychic lock on roids.

>>50087583
I have not looked at rending until now and holy shit, that's amazing.

>>50075299
>Shamans are good

Elucidate this for me please, dubs.

>>50081477
Genasi muscle wizard has already been covered, but if all you want is the flavor of a wizard (no wizard specific mechanics) then you could also just play a sorcerer. They're blaster wizards.

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>>50082169
Dragonborn barbarian|sorcerer, wandering duelist background, yakuza theme (more use than haunted blade, even if a more minor bonus), skins of the slain feat, screaming hide armor.

>>50087583
Oh shit my bad, not rending. Staff of the traveler is nuts with Reaper's Axe.
Rending is great though.

>>50053050
Anyone know who made this map?

>>50088198
IIRC it's taken from some game.

>>50088198
It's from the conquest of nerath boardgame. Some of the areas have been covered in Dragon magazine.

>>50088752
I see.

>>50058067
I continued to use many 3.0 sources up until 2007, and still bust out 3.0 'Realms products when I run a 'Realms campaign.

>>50089540
>I never stated my point
Whoops.

Point is it's trivial to mix & match 3.0 and 3.5 and even PF stuff; just like it's trivial to mix & match 4e and essentials.

>>50089571
Still not recommended and can give shitty results in case of 3.x, but kinda the assumption in 4e.

>>50089757
Generally pretty easy to remember which important things changed between 3.0 and 3.5.

>Damage Reduction is lower because it's per attack rather than per round.
>3.0 Allowed stacking that is disallowed in 3.5.

Those are the biggies for allowing 3.0 options and using 3.0 monsters.

>>50087806
shamans are the only leader class that have both an at-will that grants a basic attack and an at-will that grants a saving throw

They also get almost as many attack granting encounter powers as warlords do

>>50053050

Hey /tg/

I'm working on a homebrew setting right now, roughing out the broad strokes before I setting into the details.

Basically, it is a moderate post apocolyptic fantasy setting. The whole thing would be set in a massive city that is believed to have once been the seat of power for the gods and was home to the sky-stair, a bridge to the heavens and the physical homes of the gods.

However, for for reasons unknown the gods turn their backs on mortals struck down the sky-stair, magic is slipping out of creation and the world is dying. The sun burns cold and red, the earth is black and dead.

Tech level is a blend of medieval fantasy and 14th - early 15th century (black powder weapons are around, but not crazy common).

The city itself is a great arching spire many miles high. The lowest levels are controlled by demons and devils, who manage mining waste disposal. The mid-levels are home to the humanoid races, what little farming that happens is done here. The highest levels are controlled by celestials and angels who rule the city.

Should I continue?

>>50091047
Are you sure you don't want to try just setting it in Dark Sun?

You know, the official DnD setting set in a post-apocalyptic wasteland where the sun is dying, gods have turned their backs on mortals and sorcerer-kings rule like divine tyrants over their destroyed domains?

>>50091499

Honestly, I did look at it and give it some thought. However, I wanted to give some mystery for the players to figure out.

The city was the base of space elevator and the planet is a failed terra-forming project. The Sun went red-giant early on. Gods never existed in the first place and were merely the orginal colonists of an ultra advanced civilization. "Magic" is the left over remnants of their tech.

Like I said, I thought about running Dark Sun, but felt this would be too much of a departure.

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>>50091631
Just needs animal people humanoids and you've recreated the plot of Autumnlands

>>50092240

Well, shit. No original idea under the sun...

>>50092302
Originally is highly overrated. Presentation is more important.

That and everyone having fun.

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>>50092875
>Originally
I a fill with shame.

>>50092875

Well, I suppose thats true. I think it could be fun.

>>50091499
Dark Sun has really good weapon breakage rules.

ded

>>50089540
If you use setting stuff there's no problem, but 3.0 FR PRCs were insane (and were in fact generally neutered in the conversions).
The fact that you can use them does not mean that you are supposed to. It's like fitting a round peg in a square hole.

>>50095111
Game

>>50096476
Ded

>>50096476
>>50095111
Could be worse. I'll take it over the weeaboo faggotry waifuposting of /pfg/.

>>50096727
Thred

>>50086812
Actually, most of the Masterwork armours and Dark Sun armours are made of monsters. All of them are innately magical, as reflected in the fact they have a minimum enhancement level, but they also all have a bonus to AC or an NAD.

>>50053050
Thanks OP for the map.
Stealing a piece of it to use to base my OC on since I can't into mapmaking.

>>50096756
Speaking of, it's annoying how the Compendium is incorrect on some masterwork upgrades, forcing people to look at source material.

>>50096756
>minimum enhancement level
>Dark Sun
Dark Sun is intended to be used with inherent bonuses, which remove the minimum enhancements.

A bump for the road

>>50098083
Why is this thread so fucking dead?

>>50098095
Only so much mechanical stuff to talk about, and oddball concepts are far easier to pull off, and work, than in say 3.pf.

>>50098380
Are details of the fall of the empire of Nerath in Dungeon Mag?
I had an idea of setting up a "dream sequence" where the party plays out as a last group of spec ops irregulars on a mission that is betrayed, but I want it to be lore friendly if possible.

>>50098746
My understanding is that the fall of the empire is kept intentionally vague, specifically so DMs can slot in whatever details they need.

>>50098773
So what about details about the empire itself?
I know Bael Turath and Arkhosia get fleshed out.

>>50098746
There was an article with fluff for the Last Legion Officers feat tree that came closet to giving solid details on what happened at the fall of Nerath.
>>50098848
That is significantly harder to find in one place. A lot of it comes from offhand comments about Nerath from features and fluff not even directly concerned with it. Some stuff comes closer, like the fluff for the shock trooper pp, but it's still all pretty vague

>>50098746

So here's what we have about Nerath and its fall;
>Capital city of Nera, it took it upon itself to sweep up the debris of Arkhosia and, to a lesser extent, Bael Turath.
>Had a somewhat Roman feel to it-- there is mention of an ineffective Emperor who ignored some border wars, and the nobility raised their own legions to deal with it
>Its destruction is nebulously attributed to a horde of "gnolls and their demonic allies".

>>50098746
>>50099006
You can use the compendium to find out which issue of dragon the last legion stuff was in. From what I can remember off the top of my head, the last legion was headed by a general who, while loyal, was not favored by the increasingly corrupt heads of state and was thus oftensent on assignment far off from the capitol. When news that the capitol was under seige by the gnoll(?) hordes got to him, his troops were too distant to arrive in time to make a difference. Nevertheless they returned and began recovery efforts, rescuing and protecting the survivors and offering it to any others in the now broken empire. The legion continued on for several generations, gaining fame as the last legion of nerath and protectors of the last remnants of civilization

>>50099109

Other stuff

>First Emperor who founded the whole thing lit "Flame Imperishable". His name was Magroth.
Citation: Dragon Magazine 393.
>There was an official order of psions called the Ghost Blades who were, more or less, like the secret service.
Citation: Dragon 381
>There was a strong link between the Empire of Nerath and the Temple of Erathis. The King often used Erathis Avengers.
Dragon 387
>King Elidyr is ruler when Warforged are created. They are created to combat a rising gnoll-army threat, who march under "The Ruler of Ruin".
Citation: Dragon 364
>The Empire of Nerath clashed with the Empire of Karkoth. Nerath won.
Citation: Dragon 399

>>50099339

Nerath's end looks to be a combination of it losing its king without an heir, and a gnoll invasion. Lots of outside pressures saw Nerath pulling back its military and leaving border territories to fend for themselves-- when Nera was sacked, the nobility was unable to keep things united and more or less fell to squabbling.

>>50099339
>>There was an official order of psions called the Ghost Blades who were, more or less, like the secret service.
Pretty badass

How to make a radiant-specialist Hexblade most likely going Morninglord good?
I'm trying to cheese my ways into various sources of bonus damage, but it's tough.
Frozen Whetstone seems lucrative to double-dip elemental optimisation, but it would take two minor actions to use (one to apply, one to create pact blade), which is almost prohibitive.

>>50099993
That's a bit tricky

You see, the most common way to really abuse morninglord is to use channel divinity: Solar Enemy to stack radiant vulnerability before unleashing a great big nova. But a Hexblade will not have enough wisdom to take the divine channeler feat, so it leaves you a bit stuck

>>50100167
Yeah but how do I tap other damage optimisation sources?
An example was my failed Frozen Whetstone idea.
A part of my build plans is basically "get sick BA's, rely on enablers to kill shit with off-turn attacks while dropping big dailies with my standards".

>>50100192
That's not so hard, hexblade MBAs are all arcane attack powers, so you can use the arcane admixture feat to give them pretty much whatever you want

>>50100232
The issue is that if I go Arcane Admixture route, I'll kinda neglect my dailies, which can be amazeballs. E.g., at a later level, I'll pick up either Visage of Zhudun or Plague of Frogs, while I already have Tentacles of Cryonax and Star Shackles.

>>50100251
Hmmmm, difficult

Especially since poor Hexblades can't just use a radiant weapon or sunblade to attach radiant damage to everything they do

Have you considered being an O-warlock or focusing more heavily on just your at-wills?

>>50100406
Yeah, O-warlock with eldritch strike would probably work better.

>>50100406
>Especially since poor Hexblades can't just use a radiant weapon or sunblade to attach radiant damage to everything they do
I actually can use a radiant staff for that purpose.

>>50100406
>Have you considered being an O-warlock or focusing more heavily on just your at-wills?
I'm already a Hexblade.
Focusing on just at-wills is quite interesting, but it feels bad to just neglect amazing shit like Visage of Zhudun.

>>50100423
You aren't really neglecting it, that would be like saying a fighter that takes deft hurler style is neglecting come and get it

>>50100251
>>50100423
Visage of Zhudun is one of those weird powers which makes me feel like we're all reading it wrong

Technically you add all your bonus damage to the 3d10 roll, but it really doesn't feel like you're supposed to do that, like the damage is just supposed to be 3d10 flat

It's like flame spiral or thundering howl. It feels like there's important 4e errata that somehow never got finalized or something

>>50100504
I guess, though it'll be still a bit annoying if my "BIG AND FLASHY SUPERPOWER" deals less damage than my MBA.

>>50100570
Well warlocks curse does say damage rolls, and some similar powers would be awfully shitty without them

>>50100834
Ah, I see your dilemma.
You could go for dailies with more controllery effects so it's not really a damage competition between your powers

>>50100570
There's a lot of effects that trigger on damage rolls specifically. If they wanted avoid stacking those they could've used the x number + modifier strategy they do with other powers

>>50100893
Motherfucking

Tyranny

of

FLAAAAAAAAAAMES

God I love that power

>>50099339
That's a really useful list, thanks anon
>>50099185
This is a pretty meaty article in dragon #396 for anyone who cares

>>50101336
It's CON-based. I'm CHA-based. But I get your point.

>>50100504
I guess going whetstone pre-paragon, admixture in paragon is reasonable.

>still playing this shitty game
>2016

Is the original assassin class any good or does executioner completely obsolete it? Seems like executioner is just better at the whole striker thing but o-assassin seems like it might have some nice tricks with shroud use.

>>50105181
Both are garbage desu fampai.

>>50098380
>oddball concepts are far easier to pull off, and work, than in say 3.pf.

Only if those concepts are defined broadly. Not necessarily if there are any kinds of specific abilities you would need.

A couple examples of things I've never seen anyone pull off in 4e.

Breath-of-Fire Dragon-Clan Swordmage.

(If you're unfamiliar, Dragon Clan have a humanoid form most of the time, but can take on a variety of dragon forms, completely replacing their own capabilities with level-appropriate forms for each dragon type they learn to turn into. They can maintain that transformation for a short time before becoming too tired and having to change back. IIRC, separate HP pool when transformed, as well.)

And for an easier version, Ogre-Mage form Synthesist Summoner. From squishy mage, to massive hulking greatsword user that flies, can take a tremendous beating, and has reach.

Alternatively, the main premise of the Summoner class in general:
A squishy buffmage whose main purpose comes in the form of a custom tailored beatstick pet. IE: A Pokemon Trainer with a single customizable pokemon.

I would be impressed to see a plausible build that can handle any of the three concepts.

>>50105224
Garbage as in "these are seeker/vampire levels of unplayable" or "you'll just be a suboptimal striker" unplayable?

>>50105264
The latter.

>>50105241
>A squishy buffmage whose main purpose comes in the form of a custom tailored beatstick pet. IE: A Pokemon Trainer with a single customizable pokemon.
Shaman?

>>50105280
Eh, I guess it's close enough that you could do it, with some refluffing. I forgot about shaman.

But the transformy builds?

4e is fairly build-versatile, but I don't think it covers /everything/.

>>50105241
>If you base your concepts on builds from a specific game, you will not replicate them easilly in another

No shit fampai

>>50105429
Hey, you'd be surprised how many times the people touting the virtues of refluffing have told me you can satisfactorily represent *ANYTHING* using published 4e character options.

>>50105644
I suspect they meant any genre, not any mechanic

>>50105644
Wait. You think those two things are in opposition? No, that's exactly my point. When you refluff, you bring a story-based concept into existing mechanics. That's relatively easy. The problem arises when you go the other way around, and base a character on a mechanic. But honestly, "being able to use class feature X" is not a character concept.

>>50105944
>"being able to use class feature X" is not a character concept.
Of course not. But it's very possible that it could be a required *PART* of a character concept.

"Mage who transforms into a giant fuckoff ogre mage to kick ass and take names" is very much part of a legitimate character concept.

Sure, you need *MORE*, but that doesn't mean that "just because you're going to need mechanics that back that up it's not a valid part of a character concept".

Just like you need mechanics that back up playing a wizard. If you dont have something that can easily be reasonably fluffed as your spells, its hard to call yourself a wizard.

If you're trying to build a cloud giant warlord of some sort, "refluff halforc" isn't going to suffice.

>>50106370
Couldn't druid be the transforming mage?

You sorta go from "caster" to "melee monster".

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>>50097456
>Dark Sun is intended to be used with inherent bonuses, which remove the minimum enhancements.
Only for weapons, implements, and neck slots actually. IF you read the books on how inherent bonuses is meant to be run, Armor is one of the things you are supposed to keep up on. Personally, I dislike this and created my own inherent bonuses chart that has been shared on these threads already.

>>50106370
>>50107585

Yeah Druid seems a 100% fit

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>>50107619
>DMG2
>not quoting the Dark Sun version
See the differences in phrasing?

Is a power considered a hit if there is no attack roll?

>>50107958
No.

>>50107958
no

>>50107958
No, but there might be a damage roll still, such as with certain zone or AoE powers.

>>50107757
Neither books version includes appropriate math to keep defenders' AC relevant with MM3 math.

>>50103436
Command Insanity
Far Realm Glimpse
Delusions of Loyalty

Warlocks make control wizards jealous with their dailies

>>50108047
Fixed enhancement bonuses (Dark Sun Campaign Setting page 209) add to defenses, including AC. Once you give out unenchanted masterwork armor to fill out the additional bonuses, how is that any different from the regular system?

>>50107585
>>50107720
It's the closest thing I can think of, but druid typically turns into animals, not the equivalent of a flying bear that can wear armor and use fighter weapons.

But yes, druid is the most similar. You'd need to change out the nature skills maybe, but the form they change into isn't the best match.

They can't normally transform and then use a greatsword or polearm in tandem with fullplate, or the like.

>>50108370
>It's the closest thing I can think of, but druid typically turns into animals, not the equivalent of a flying bear that can wear armor and use fighter weapons.

You are thinking mechanics again. The druid turns into nondescript "animal form" that has melee attack powers you can only use there.

If you say you turn into a warrior with a sword/armor? Sure, go ahead, who gives a fuck, just pick up powers that give you shit a warrior would do.

Also,
>They can't normally transform and then use a greatsword or polearm in tandem with fullplate

Does that class work by carrying around equipment it can't even fucking use until it transforms? Cause in that case "transforming" for that class is essentially cosmetic, since you'd be focusing on one form anyway.

>>50108370
Take a Weretheme. At level 10, you can use all your powers in the were-form.

>>50108436
Yes, I do indeed carry around weapons I can't use until transformed, and then bust them out. Though rather than using actual armor, it has high natural armor and DR.

In combat I would typically stay in "ogremage" form, unless I am deliberately staying at a distance to cast spells (which I might do from time to time, but is not the norm).

Ogremage is in quotes because the alternate form can be whatever you want, you pick features and abilities via point-buy.

>>50108436
Not a warrior, a flying warrior. Sure, you might be able to turn into a grizzly bear (closest animal that comes to mind), but a bear with a fly speed?

>>50108436
A nondescript "animal" is fine, so long as there's one with abilities that match what you're building.

>large size
>heavy hitting attack similar to weapon of choice - could be anything from a sword to a polearm (common) to (hypothetically) a bow.
>Flies.
>Tanky.

I dont have the books in front of me, and I've never actually played a 4e druid. Is that actually doable?

>>50108590
>Not a warrior, a flying warrior. Sure, you might be able to turn into a grizzly bear (closest animal that comes to mind), but a bear with a fly speed?

>http://funin.space/compendium/power/Form-of-the-Primeval-Raptor.html

>>50108590
Flying in 4e is restricted for a reason. If you want it, some racial features offer it, though it's not true free flight. Dragonborn using Draconian options, Pixies, and Windsoul Genasi,

>>50108590
I get the feeling that your problem is not knowing enough about 4e's character options.

>>50108717
That is likely part of the issue. Yes.

I have pretty limited off and on access to 4e. Friends mostly play Pathfinder and Shadowrun, and other games are things they try out for a few months and then go back to PF and shadowrun for another 6.

It helps that we have several campaigns on the go simultaneously (at least 3), but 4e is very rarely among them; and when we have done 4e, I often found it difficult to build/refluff less simple concepts, because there often didn't seem to be anything that was a good mechanical fit.

>>50108825
I'm confused, what exactly do you want to be able to do?

>>50108666
Sovereign Beast ED lets you be large
Druids have polearm builds meant to exploit polearm momentum
Winged boots or whatever they're called will let you fly indiscriminately
Druids can be tanky, strikery, whatever the fuck they want really

So yeah, I guess so

Are there any non-class-specific ways to regain the use of expended daily powers?

>>50109571
Some epic destinies. Qualifications may need some multiclassing. Daily recovery is an epic tier thing, anyway.

>>50109843
Cleric's get it at level 12 with the tactical warpriest PP

>>50109933
>non-class-specific
>cleric paragon path that recovers a single cleric daily when you roll a natural 20 on an attack

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>>50109282
Transform from a mage into a large sized beatstick that flies and kicks ass, and could be plausibly refluffed as turning into one of these guys:

>>50110028
Hmm, very difficult. Being large and having flight are immensely powerful traits in 4e.

I think the only way to do that would be to make a swordmage in epic tier with the zephyr boots. Zephyr boots give a permanent flight speed so long as you're wearing them, while swordmages have a level 22 daily utility power Giant's Might, which makes you large until the end of the encounter and comes with some nice buffs

>>50110132
You'd only have these things while transformed. The rest of the time you'd be a (likely subpar) mage.

>transform from a medium magic themed beatstick to a large flying beatstick at upper levels.
That's close-ish, I suppose.

Or maybe that druid suggestion, or that lycanthrope suggestion combined with your boots idea.

Hmm.

Seems to be tricky though, for sure.

>>50110028
>Mage
>Transforms into giant brute
>Flies
>Still a mage
Want to be able to breath in space while you're at it, Supes?

>>50110234
>Still a mage
Nah, man.

I'd actually be fairly satisfied to trade in my mage character sheet for a different sheet entirely when transformed, and just be a large flying beatstick until I change back.

>>50110234
Swordmages are still mages

They're mages that hit things close up and are focused on defending allies, but they're still an intelligence-based arcane class

Be a shielding swordmage, multiclass into wizard and take a wizard PP (easy enough, you share a primary stat), and you have enough ranged powers that you can even forgo the whole melee range thing

>>50110287
Mate

Mate no

No mate no

You do not get to use two character sheets to double your flexibility. No one should ever be allowed to do that in any game

>>50110358
>No one should ever be allowed to do that in any game
Unless this is like a two man party situation, but even then it's really specific circumstances.

>>50110358
If that was the mechanical approach, Each sheet could have less flexibility. Maybe I'd have less powers on each sheet or something, for instance. Maybe I'd get the same number of powers, divided between them.

I've seen it work okay for a character transformation in M&M.

>>50108047
MM3 math only changed damage bonuses. Attack progression was the same.

>>50110287
>
>>50110028
Just literally play a beatstick class, take ritual caster, or multiclass into wizard, and just ASSUME that the adrenaline of combat activates his transformation. Out of combat, you're a mage, in combat you're a... fighter, or battlemind, or barbarian or whatever (barbarian works well with a high-int with a genasi str-int build so it might fit best.)

>>50105125
>Still posting this shitty troll
>2016

>>50111064
>Barbarian Air Genasi Ritual Caster.

Hmm. Is there a decent way to make that go large size in combat?