Eclipse Phase General - /epg/

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>>49963874
Ultimates > Jovians

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>>49907112
>>49907112
>>49907112

To continue the relatively non-shit discussion started in the previous thread, regarding whether Eclipse Phase misses the transhumanist mark or not in it's fervor to sell social anarchism, progressive liberalim and (post-) transhumanism as objectively moral and societal goods; is there any mentioned faction in Eclipse Phase that categorically or at least consistently reject the transhumanist ideal on a basis other than religion, or that isn't consistently described as regressive, reactionary conservatives acting generally like shitheads?

>>49963898
Depends on your transhumanist ideal. I feel like the writers are kind of close minded about the whole thing. It seems like

>Having 20 dicks = good
>Being actually not a human being anymore = bad

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>>49963915
Well I was thinking in regards to the transhumanist ideal presented in the books.

The only ones that really seem to oppose it seem to be the Jovian Republic, which as described in the last thread is borderline absurd.

Not only because the Jovian Republic only exists to be shat on and to be evil boogeymen described as epitomizing "everything wrong with the 21st century" as according to anarchist millennials (also known as "everything actually wrong with the 21st century"), but also because there are pretty fundamental non-religious arguments against this idoltry, and religion could actually go both ways (Christians may consider the soul separate from your fleshy bits tethered to you no matter where or how you are, while Buddhists would consider each person unique, even if it's a fork/backup, and your "you" is in constant flux; you die, you're dead).

And I can't think of any faction other than the Jovians attempting to make a coherent argument, and their argument is based on religion, not philosophy or science.

>>49964106
This is fair. I think it could just use a little expanding on. The Jovians probably end up being a place where everyone with those sorts of ideas go, regardless of actual reason. I agree the books paint a bland and obviously biased picture of the Jovians, but I think they're still probably alright as an idea. All the biocons would probably band together, for survivability if anything else.

The main thing to keep in mind is a lot of the biocons died during the Fall, and they died permanently/never had a copy of them made after the fact. Those that were living on Mars or other Inner system places probably got forced to either move or except certain things with the hyper-corps in charge.

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>>49963893
If that armour was just a little bit heavier and power armour/exoskeleton-ish, that's exactly how I imagine a character in my group, a Guard Synthmorph who is going full-on autist weaboo samurai-wannabe swordfighter (albeit with a two-handed saber).

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>>49964133
>probably got forced to either move or accept certain things with the hyper-corps in charge.

Enjoy your case morph, your synthetic mask and being an indentured rapeslave forever.

>>49964276

>being an indentured rapeslave forever

Where do I sign up?

>>49964133
You don't even need to force them. Jovians do accept new people. You need to move physically to Jupiter and pass a really strict examination but it is possible.

Of course after that you must apply for citizenship and serve in the military.

But it is mentioned that Jovians even PAY people to move to Republic if they have their real bodies in which they were born.

>>49964133
There are definite degrees of bioconservatism going on within EP. I'd argue the PC has a strong bio-con streak, the standard morph is still human in form and ability, just with the genetic loose ends tied up and maybe an inclination towards exercise genefixed in.
And the Lunar cities are pretty against transhumanism for its own sake, although how much of that is part of their culture and how much is due to literally being in orbit around the monument to the failure of our entire species is up for debate

>>49964367
I thought it was just a bonus if you had your real body.

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>>49964367
>if they have their real bodies in which they were born.

I wonder how they check that, though. I could've been born a Splicer or Exalt or Olympian to begin with. I have the feeling that as a Futura, I'd set off all the same bells and triggers as a insatiated ego in a clone of their choice.

And I have the feeling that as a Futura, they'd either give me a compulsory promotion or turn me into a rapeslave for science.

>tfw you love Jove but Jove does not love you

>>49964460
>I wonder how they check that, though.
Well they probably have one of the best archives besides Mars considering that they should have American, Chinese and Russian security files.

Well Futura has more problems with psi than with actually getting citizenship. Considering that Jovians really don't like Corpies psi abilities will be the biggest hurdle to overcome. And mental problems. Most Futura probably will need a therapy.

Also why would they need to make you a rapeslave if they can just get samples and create a copy?

What are the rules for smoke grenades?

>>49964580
They're a [Low] cost item, obscures sight, obfuscates heat signatures. That's... about it, I think. I'd generally go with it applying a -20 combat modifier ("Visibility Impaired: Major", EP p193) to start with.

>>49964697
Yeah, but how far do they spread? And how fast?

>>49964743
Presumably you've already looked through the books and not found anything covering it explicitly, so it'll fall back to the "ask your GM and house-rule it if you need rules for that".

>>49964743
There are so many factors to consider for that that it'd need it's own page just to write the rules. Think about it.

Are we talking about on the moon, without atmosphere? Are we talking about inside the moon, so low-gravity but with atmosphere? Are we talking Mars? What about weightless but with atmosphere?

A note on it would've been nice, some more information, sure, but largely such things should be left to the GM.

I find it more odd that they obfuscate heat signatures. Like. How?

>>49964952
Chaff or something in the grenade to confuse IR sensors? You've always got to assume your opponent has access to the whole light spectrum in EP combat, even smoke grenades need to be teched up

>>49964858
>ask your GM and house-rule it if you need rules for that
>>49964952
>sure, but largely such things should be left to the GM
I am the GM. That's why I'm asking.

>>49964969
I guess you could have some ionized nanoclouds that assume and attempt to spread ambient heat evenly, or simply is very hot to momentarity blind sensors, but the former would work poorly and the latter only until you can adjust the settings.

Maybe it creates a micro-climate that's in flux? But that could be devastating to the local area or the enviromental settings.

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>>49965027
>I am the GM.

I guessed. Like I said, just something to go on would've been nice. Some additional information. For example, a modern-day smoke grenade wouldn't work at all without an atmosphere, and would probably be wildly ineffective in zero- or low-G environments.

>>49965027
Then go with the rules of what is dramatically appropriate for the area they pop smoke in. At minimum it should fill a room within a turn, but that's assuming there's no extractors or holes for the smoke to flow out through
>>49965034
Uses excess heat from the detonation to make the smoke warm? Its not about being invisible to heat vision in the smoke, its about the guy with heat vision not being able to pick out targets. If all they can see is a haze of blue-green clouds, the jobs done

>>49965027
>I am the GM. That's why I'm asking.
Choose some current grenade and beef it up a little. Than declare that it is standard for the game. Players can get better grenades but for a price and they will be harder to find.

You can more or less ignore gravity probably for the radius as long as there is atmosphere at more or less Earth pressure levels. But gravity will define how long a cloud will last. Don't bother with trying to get realistic numbers (unless you really have time to fro all the math) just make them consistent and use some simple formula that players can easily grasp.

>>49965027
Are you using grids and the like, or is your combat generally more abstracted?

You could just go with "it's a ten metre blast radius, lasts for the combat, and actions taken to disperse it half the penalties it applies after X turns and remove it after X+Y turns". You could add a random element for X and Y, you could modify X and Y based on the MoS of the actions used to disperse it, you could add a maximum amount of time for the smoke to persist in combat, you could add an amount of time it takes for the smoke cloud to expand and change the penalties it applies so it works on a curve, starting fairly poor, hitting peak after a certain number of turns, and then naturally dispersing and inflicting less penalties.

There's a whole shit load of stuff you could do to simulate smoke grenades. Personally, I'd go for the simplest possible options, because there's usually plenty of other stuff to worry about when running combat, so there'd have to be a bloody good reason to add extra stuff.

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So obviously if the TITANs return the Jovian's stand the best chance of surviving. My question is, do you think that they would survive?

I'm personally inclined to say yes, or at least that they would last long enough for the TITANs to disappear again, because unlike the old Earth militaries which were easily exploited and subverted by the TITANs, the Jovian military is designed to force you to fight it on its terms.

Plus, this is assuming the TITANs would think the Jovian's were worth attacking. I don't think the TITANs would waste a ton of resources attacking the dug in Jovian's, especially since there's almost no cortical stacks for the headhunters to take and do whatever they do with them.

>>49965210
We have literally no idea what the TITANs motives were 10 years ago, let alone what they would be trying to achieve if they ever returned in force. Assuming they're after egos isn't that good of a defense anyway, if you don't have a stack they'll just capture your entire body and forcibly upload you. They did that to millions of people across Africa come the end.
And the Jovians are hardened against TITAN interference true enough, but they have exactly zero means to force the TITANs to fight on the same level. All that means is the TITANs are down to fighting a conventional war, which is EXACTLY what the TITANs were created to fight and win in the first place

>>49964106
>described as epitomizing "everything wrong with the 21st century" as according to anarchist millennials (also known as "everything actually wrong with the 21st century")

Nice.

>>49965210
No. I doubt they've even got the best chance of surviving; brinkres on the furthest edges of the solar system and survivalists on exoplanets probably stand a better chance of remaining undiscovered and unmolested. The best chance of surviving against the TITANs return is not to be there when they show up.

>no cortical stacks for the headhunters to take and do whatever they do with them

They take them away for forced uploading, not to nab cortical stacks. Ego-bridges, for instance, don't require you to have a cortical stack - it takes it from the brain.

Why is everyone sucking so hard on jovians dick in these threads?

>>49965305
Welcome to /epg/

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>>49965243
Yeah, that's a good point. I feel like this is why it's stupid that the Jovian's and Firewall are written as enemies. The Jovian's would want to stop the TITANs returning even more than Firewall would, and would have even less problem killing innocent transhumans to do so, yet they are written as enemies cause reasons. It's even acknowledged in the writing that the Jovian's have almost no x-threats within their territory, and that they're the only people even remotely prepared for the return of the TITANs (although whether they're prepared enough is up for debate). By all means the Jovian's and Firewall should at least tolerate each other, but yet they don't.

That being said, I do think their could be a cool alternative to having them work with Firewall. Similar to how the Planetary Consortium has their version of Firewall called Ozma, the Jovian's could have their own elite teams of Firewall equivalents. Unless that basically describes the entire Jovian military.

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>>49965305
It's because they represent concepts like government, nationality, bioconservatism, and religion in the setting. Considering most people who like Eclipse Phase aren't socialist anarchists, we tend to side with the faction that represents the ideals that we support. The reason people get so salty about it is cause the writers are really hamfisted in their portrayal of all the factions except the autonomist alliance

>>49965305
Because the books are written with such a pro-anarchist stance its smothering. I'd consider myself quite lefty, but the way a lot of the book is written is nauseating in how much it bends over backwards to the anarchist cause
Like, there's parts of Sunward when they all but state the only reason people don't want to live like anarchists do is because The Man keeps them down and stops them from imagining a life outside their little bubble. There's no respect for the idea that people can look at a life where your next door neighbour is a transsexual orangutan with a background in nano-warfare and decide "actually, that's really not for me" of their own volition. In EP you're either a free anarchist, blinded by the dogma of the system (and thus awaiting the 'glorious liberation' of anarchism) or a baby eating conservative.
The Jovians are explicitly against all this bullshit, so /tg/ clings on to them as the one actual element of the setting that stands against the bullshit

>>49965360
Ok, I can understand your point, but besides their are more moderate factions besides right-wing and left-wing extremists.

I find the anarchist way holier than thou, but I find the nationalist religious biocon, however badly wrote, equally unappealing.

>>49965334
>By all means the Jovian's and Firewall should at least tolerate each other, but yet they don't.

It's probably because the Jovians - perhaps rightly - see Firewall as a bunch of terrorists that are furthering the goals of the Argonauts and their left-wing autonomist friends.

>>49965334
The problem is the Jovians only care about saving the Jovians, which is completely antithetical to how Firewall operates. Firewall is a cross faction conspiracy designed to at least try and help every group in the setting, whereas the Jovians don't consider a majority of the system to be human anymore. The Jovians in Firewall tend to be either dissidents against the Junta looking for connections, or Jovians with foresight enough to realise that since Jove is relatively free of internal x-threats it needs to look beyond its borders
I think the nearest thing to 'Jovian Firewall' is probably their intelligence services, dedicating to rooting out any roosting x-threats and the like. Again though, they're not often seen outside Jove orbit. The Republic is a closed nation in a post national solar system, and has the firepower to enforce that

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>>49965392
I understand what you're saying, but a big part of the reason people tolerate the extremes that the Jovian's go to is because the setting is post apocalyptic. It's one thing to be for the distribution of 3d printers, it's another thing entirely when said 3d printers can create nuclear bombs. Freedom of the press is nice, but when all it takes is one basilisk hack displayed on television to wipe out a habitat then it becomes understandable to regulate it.

We judge the Jovian's according to our modern day sensibilities, but the Jovian's are stuck in a universe that just went through one apocalypse and is set to go through another one. It's perfectly understandable for them to be paranoid and authoritarian in such a situation.

>>49965360
>we tend to side with the faction that represents the ideals that we support

You probably shouldn't think of siding with factions in Eclipse Phase or, at least, accept that your ideals are not going to exactly match with a particular faction. People seem to side the Jovians, and then complain about the ideals they have while simultaneously claiming that they support the Jovian ideals.

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>>49965396
Well there are terrorist anarchist cells that make attacks within Jovian territory, and Firewall has done some minor infiltration into the Jovian ranks, so yeah, basically Firewall is a bunch of terrorists when you get down to it.

>>49965433
>It's perfectly understandable for them to be paranoid and authoritarian in such a situation.

It's perfectly understandable, and it's a believable response to a sort-of-self-inflicted extinction event for humanity, but it's crucially not the only response that people might have to it.

>>49965457
Firewall are as much terrorists as Delta Green are terrorists
That is to say yes, because they use violence for political ends without state authority to back them up. To their credit though, Firewall very rarely uses terrorism to affect political change, its mostly to fight whatever hellish beasty the exsurgent virus has unleashed
And yeah, I know there's that entire server dedicated to spying on the immortal ultra rich which is blatantly an anarchist front trying to start shit in the inner system, but everyone in Firewall recognizes their lying out of their ass at least

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>>49965504
Oh, I perfectly understand why someone might not like them, I'm just explaining why people on /tg/ find them so sympathetic. Personally I tend to side with them, but if someone think that they go too far or are acting silly then that's fine too. Will have to kill those people for being a heathen transhumanist though.

>>49965400
The higher ups may look at people as numbers but if public opinion was that other transhumans are not people the Jupiter moons would be much less populated. After all feneris can't save you against antiproton beams and UV lasers firing from high orbit.

But yeah Jovians do prefer to keep to themselves. Frankly they have enough space for their population to grow 10 times over and not suffer much shortage in any resources. So they don't need anything beyond Jupiter trojans except security.

The most outgoing groups of Jovians are probably reclaimers.

>>49965540
>I'm just explaining why people on /tg/ find them so sympathetic.

That's the part that I always found a bit odd though; I don't find the Jovians particularly sympathetic, because what the Jovians represent is a whole mess of different ideals and concepts, some of which I agree with, some of which I find fairly abhorrent. And it's the same for every other faction, so I don't really overly identify with any of the fictional groups in the game.

Like how I can say "I think Donald Trump has some valid points regarding the unequal distribution of the benefits of globalisation when it comes to the poorest sections of a society", but not be such a Trump supporter that I'll defend some of the weird shit he's said and done simply because he has a viewpoint that's close to my own in some respects.

>>49965592
>Frankly they have enough space for their population to grow 10 times over and not suffer much shortage in any resources
Quite the opposite actually, they're having trouble with life support systems. Since the Jovians refuse to use nano tech, their life support is much more likely to go septic. Not lethal by any means but not comfortable either. I can see that changing as they get better acquainted with the challenges of living in space and more nano tech passes the stringent testing of the Jovian Science Board but the situation still isn't ideal.

>>49965651
Well even not counting different religious, ethnic and business groups you have government, security, mainstay military (those who serve beyond base time needed for citizenship), citizens and those didn't serve and now live in some hole. And they all will have different takes on what it means to be Jovian.

>>49965651
Eh, some of its the political Stockholm syndrome foisted on people by parties and ideologies; we agree with more of the program than we don't so we go all in on supporting them rather than appear to be half hearted in our beliefs.

>>49965685
I mean in the long run. Nothing stops them from creating new habitats or digging underground cities on moons. Though habitats will be better cause you can add drives to them for the time when shit hits the fan.

Yes currently they need to iron out existing systems but after that Ganymede alone can easily take a billion people. Though it's a security risk.

>>49964952
>I find it more odd that they obfuscate heat signatures. Like. How
Even today we can do that. It just requires messing around with the smoke composition until you get something that blocks IR. Some even block certain kinds of radar.

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>>49965651
The Jovian's are more or less the most "normal" faction of the setting. The people inhabit human bodies but aren't luddites, a functioning government and military exists, religion still plays a role in daily life, actual currency is used instead of a shoddy reputation system, and people have rights but also restrictions in their life. Sure, you're not going to like everything about them, just like many people today might not like everything about our current day lives, but that doesn't mean we would ever consider moving to an anarchist hell-hole or some corporatist "country".

>>49965769
All these things are true of the Planetary Consortium, the Morningstar Constellation or the LLC. Shit, they restrict their citizens a lot less than the Jovians, and if you go to Mars you get to live on an actual planet instead of a space station with septic oxygen filters

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>>49965800
Yeah but they got people turning themselves into octopuses with 9 penises, and they aren't preparing for the TITANs returning which seems like the most reasonable action to do after an apocalyptic event like the Fall.

Keep in mind there's also quite a bit of "Humanity Fuck Yeah" in play here. The idea of an unmodified human going toe to toe and beating the various creatures of transhumanity is appealing.

>>49965839
>The idea of an unmodified human going toe to toe and beating the various creatures of transhumanity is appealing.

Plucky baseline munchkinism is a potent drug, much like cocaine or heroin. But, like all drugs, it is toxic in large doses.

>>49965839
>they got people turning themselves into octopuses with 9 penises
No they don't? Maybe in Morningstar, but even then its very rare and seen as strange even by transhuman standards. I'm going to agree to disagree about TITAN preparation, the fact is if there's anything they wanted from us at large they could have taken it ten years ago, and I can't believe we'll make anything after them that they can't make themselves. They have no reason to return, we shouldn't cripple our potential to protect against a non-existent possibility
And true, there is that element of HFY, but I don't pick up EP for that. I pick it up for Transhuman weirdness fighting darker digitized Lovecraft weirdness. If you want pure humanity standing alone against the raging dark of an uncaring universe, Delta Green or Call of Cthulhu honestly do a better job

>>49965769
the 'normality' of the jovians is a current normality

the contemporary normality is inner-system transhumans or maybe the technosocialists on that moon.

I mean this in the sense of the sensible adaptations to the environmental pressures of a post-apocalyptic far future. You might be more or less inclined to the jovian approach to these pressures as practically or ethically right, but I wouldn't call it a kind of normality. Though I can understand what you mean if you're more thinking of resemblance to humanity currently.

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>>49965210
It depends on how you envision the TITANs returning.

If we're talking about TITANs returning in full force, after occupying a few star systems nearby, having turned much of it into quantum processors, cold-fusion reactors, nuclear railguns and nanobots, intent on the destruction of humanity?

No, the Jovian Republic and everyone else would be massively fucked. The TITANs could likely snipe all of Jupiter, blowing it up, or just devastating it, before the Republic (or anyone else in the solar system) would realize what was even going on.

The only realistic option in such a scenario would be to flee. Either get into a generational ship/station and leg it out of the solar system, hoping it escapes notice (which is unlikely) or jump through one of the Pandora Gates (which is insanely dangerous and something the Factors have explicitly warned humanity from doing).

But either way, we know fuckall about the TITANs. They may not even really have left. They could just be incubating inside Earth somehow. Their motivations are a complete mystery. There's some "GM:s only" spoilers for the setting, but nothing really explains the corruption of the TITANs, where they went, or why.

For all we know, the TITANs are actually the good guys.

>>49965769
But they are luddites. They restrict technology because of their belief it is bad for society.

>>49965965
No they restrict technology because they think that atomic bombs should not be an accessory that you chose to match colour of your eyes.

>>49966050
Why do they disallow resleeving then?

>>49966050
They restrict life saving nano machines, they let their life support go septic because the best fixes use nano tech and they heavily restrict the near boundless immortality enjoyed by people outside of the Republic
I respect they have a point in restricting the upper bounds of what citizens can freely produce, but the Consortium, the Constellation and the LLC are far more reasonable examples. Shit, the Jovians don't even let people have access to fabbers

>>49966050
you might be confusing it with their hardened attitudes to transhumans after a protracted war with morphs made completely out of dried maize stalks

>>49966050
Tbh as they don't try to impose their views upon the rest of the system, I couldn't care about the Jovians, but saying they aren't luddites would be misleading

>>49966075
You mean the technology that allows you to create a nuclear bomb in your basement? Yeah it seems reasonable to restrict those. As for the nanomachines, those were easily hacked and used by the Titans to eat anything they could find, so that's why those are restricted.

Contrary to popular belief the Jovians are developing technology, they just are developing it more cautiously, with a focus on exploiting the weaknesses of TITANs and transhumans.

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>>49965392
>Ok, I can understand your point, but besides their are more moderate factions besides right-wing and left-wing extremists.

Look at the OP and check some of the discussion in the previous thread, a discussion that ended about here: >>49953980

What *other* moderate factions are there, presented, that have not drunk the crypto-anarchist Kool-Aid, nor high on transhumanist dogma?

That being said, I don't mind being "left-wing extremist" or "right-wing extremist", but both should be treated fairly in terms of setting, but the Jovians both implicitly and *explicitly* are not - but at the same time, while being consistently shat on, many aspects of them come across as "making sense" and as being the only near-sensible faction in the setting, the "issues" as presented basically having to be engineered (How the fuck can cancer still be a thing, with the technology available, even if you reject gene-modding and nanotechnology? How the fuck can you lump "Fascism" and "Lobbyism" into the same sentence, and apply it to a (albeit corrupt) constitutional republic?).

Where's my pro-humanity, generally bioconservative Argonauts and research collectives that question the act of uplifting disparate species to sapience? Where's my Terran Dominion that want to reclaim Earth, but hate the anarchists, the ultimates and AGI:s, but don't mind genemodded humans (Olympians, Mentons, Exalts, Furies, etc)? Hell, where's my die-hard communist faction that is just as terrible as you'd imagine a transhumanist communist faction to be, where everyone is literally created equal?

It's no wonder the Jovian Republic attracts a following.

>>49966066
>Why do they disallow resleeving then?
That's actually another point. Not the luddite one but about human identity. Notice that Jovians do use planned parenthood a-la Gattaca ensuring that all their future generations are basically splicers but anyone who sleeves into a morph with non-evolved genecode must give DNA of his first body for his children.

>>49966075
Because nanomachines are really easy to exploit. Especially if you can get access to their hive.

>>49966166
Fabbers can't stitch uranium atoms together out of thin air, you just need to restrict the feed stock for them (like the PC, MC and LLC already do)
As for nanos, contrary to popular belief you can't just flip a switch and turn them into grey goo machines, they don't have the programming for that. And besides, restricting something that beneficial because of the remotest chance of the return of the TITANs is a very short sighted policy. Not least because a) there is nothing in this system the TITANs want, if there was they would have taken in ten years ago and b) if the TITANs do return they won't even bother subverting your nanos when they can just rip your head off. TITANs are not subtle

>>49966185
Depends on what you mean by "high on transhumanist dogma" doesn't it?
Because I'd argue the PC do a fine job of being a moderately right wing faction that allows a lot of freedoms to its citizens but still restricts them. Hell, on a day to day basis life as a member of the PC is closest to the modern Western standard of living today, just with higher tech in some areas. But for some reasons every ignores that and focuses on the Jovians
I do agree that the left outside of anarchism gets shit on though, the only real left wing polity is Titan. Which is pretty cool but very hard to discuss on /tg/ because I can already here the arguments about immigration and refugees starting
Beyond that there doesn't seem to be a major hard left faction anywhere. Sure you can just decide "fuck it, there's a station that runs on communist lines" but there's no where for that group to fit within the larger structure of the setting

>>49966206
Besides TITANs there is AGI, exhumans, ultimates, anarchist nutjobs, uplift nutjobs and every other kind and type of nutjob. And anyone of them getting access to a life-support slaved hive can fuck up most of the habitat.

There is a good reason while you never keep all your eggs in one basket and don't allow a single system to be critical to a survival of the place where people live.

>>49965651
>I don't find the Jovians particularly sympathetic, because what the Jovians represent is a whole mess of different ideals and concepts, some of which I agree with, some of which I find fairly abhorrent. And it's the same for every other faction, so I don't really overly identify with any of the fictional groups in the game.

The only things I don't like about the Jovian Republic is that it's fairly corrupt (being a democracy) and that it's fundamentally Christian (and as presented, a fundamentally retarded brand of christianity, to boot).

Other than that, if you ignore the way the writers try to paint them as the baddies, and only focus on the objective facts as presented, I like the Jovian Republic quite a bit. Over all, it's probably one of the better places to live in the Solar System, bar perhaps Luna.

At least unless you're rich - if you're rich, there's always somewhere better, like a pretty much private O'Neill Cylinder, or something.

It's frustrating that the fetishising of Flats is a thing in the Jovian Republic, though, because it's not really expanded upon why. I can't think of a reason why at least basic splicing into Exalts, Olympians, Mentons, Furies or Observers would be a problem. You don't even need to upload/backup or something; you could just be born that way, or be changed literally on the fly, suspended in a healing vat.

There's no concrete reason why the Jovian Republic must be 80% flats, especially since far from everyone is, other than "hurr durr look how backwards the Jovians are."

>>49966259
Yeah Titanians are probably the most moderate left wing faction. And I'd argue that Morningstar, while a bit hedonist, is the most moderate right wing faction.

>>49966291
>There's no concrete reason why the Jovian Republic must be 80% flats, especially since far from everyone is, other than "hurr durr look how backwards the Jovians are."
Actually most of the children should be splicers.

>>49966297
I don't think Morningstar is that hedonist, it just got conflated with Pavarti, which is ironic considering Pavarti IIRC is actually a Consortium station that just happens to be in Venus orbit
>>49966274
What makes you think other stations have such a major security flaw? Because they don't, for the reasons you just specified. No life support system is completely dependent on nano swarms to work, they just make it easier to keep them clean. The Jovian refusal to use them makes life on their habitats, particularly on the smaller ones or in the poorer areas, more unpleasant than it needs to be

>>49966291
> Over all, it's probably one of the better places to live in the Solar System

I'd like to disagree. Jovians habitats are using near obsolete methods of life support system due to restrictions on technology, making it a dangerous place to live.
On top of that the fair share of inequality in the Republic due to their citizenship system make it hard to live in if you're not a citizen and/or you are poor.

>It's frustrating that the fetishising of Flats is a thing in the Jovian Republic

The first justification who comes to my mind is religion, and some kind of sanctity of the human body. I'm not saying it is a very good justification though.

>>49966185
honestly, it seems like your personal perspectives are colouring your interpretation of the material
the underlying value of transhuman ideals is not only explored but anxieties regarding it are built into the core themes of the game.
Normative rejections of transhumans are necessarily limited in scope, in this game, because emphasizing it's validity as an option (something not at all necessary given the context of the game) would require ignoring the majority of the game's written systems which revolve around sleeving, biomodification and electronic egos. This is even worse for someone who wants to engage with the normativity of transhuman philosophy; you won't be simulating your experience of a situation that might pose a moral dilemma by taking an absolute stance and avoiding those situations altogether.
It's also a setting cranked up to 11 in terms of the risks humanity might be expected to survive. Planetary integrity is no longer a given, so uploading technology and egocasting, as one example, can become a literal necessity for survival despite the quandaries over psychological/physical continuity of identity; it's that or all knowledge that resides on that planet is lost. Because a solar system of transhumans in ideological conflict is being portrayed, it's perfectly reasonable that the non transhumans have an aberrant quality about them.

>>49966291
I'm probably remembering wrong, but didn't the fleets that founded the Republic take a lot of refugees with them when they left the Earth? That would explain the tendency towards a Flat population, most of Earth was still Flats at the time
People elsewhere are predominantly Splicer and other morphs because people who were either already off Earth or could ego cast out already had a preponderance to picking non-Flat morphs. The Fall as an extinction event heavily selected for people already OK with morph switching

>>49966329
Every nanoswarm is a potential weapon capable of destroying everything around it. The only thing that stops it from happening is that nutjob programmer has no access to the hive at this moment.

>>49966291
>There's no concrete reason why the Jovian Republic must be 80% flats
wouldn't that be what you mostly get when you don't reproduce with an exowomb?

>>49966355
Yep. And considering that longevity treatments are allowed flats will be a majority for a long time.

>>49966376
Depends on the genecode of the parents, two splicers would make a splicer (I could be wrong though)

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>>49965769
>The people inhabit human bodies but aren't luddites

They totally are, though. It's one of those things that really puts me off the Jovian Republic (which I otherwise have a nerd-boner for).

The restriction on AI:s, AGI:s, Uplifts, and nanotechnology all makes varying amounts of sense in context, and the Jovians make good arguments as to why these things work the way they do.

There's a warranted fear of AI:s, Uplifts as a concept is arguably amoral in several different ways, and nanotechnology is insanely dangerous.

There's a lot of ethical questions regarding "immortality" and there's probably many religious reasons why cortical stacks are not a thing, why you can't backup freely, and so on and so forth. I buy all of that. I'm fine with it. Soul and Conciousness are not the same thing, what does it mean if you die, is the upload you the real you, etc.

But why the fuck would you limit yourselves to Flats and only Flats, as a matter of law and policy? It boggles the mind. It's fine to not be a morph-hopper, it's fine saying that a copy of your mind in a synthmorph is not really you.

But if I jump into a vat, and genetically engineer myself to be free of disease, it's still the same me, in the same basic body, tethered to the same "soul" (or whatever). On a fundamental level, I am still me, and I am still human. I'll still have the same overall facial features, I'll still have the same haircolour and the same eyes, and basically the same brain, with the same knowledge.

And not accepting that is what makes the Jovian Republic luddites, and it's shitty writing to not even come up with a reasonable excuse.

>>49966376
>Our exowombs, childcare facilities, and schools are
also top of the line, given the importance we place on
rebuilding our population and raising future generations.
Families with children are allotted special incentives
to encourage population growth.
Direct quote from Rimward.

>>49966376
I don't think so, they make a few references in the books that morphs can pass down their genetic traits to their kids. In the Morph Recognition guide they mention that a Hibernoid kid has the whole "only needs an hour of sleep a day" or whatever trait the parents do

>>49966399
>Depends on the genecode of the parents, two splicers would make a splicer (I could be wrong though)
Not reliably. Splicers don't have active genes that may be detrimental to them. But they may still have recessive genes that have a chance of acting up in their children without gene control.

Hey /epg/, pregnant flat player here. We've done some shopping around, and found a few morphs within price range that manage to not be cases.
Couple of basic pods relatively fresh, a used worker pod (apparently has cancer in the biological bits), a used security pod (was used in the evacuation of earth, owner is cagey on what else is going on), and... an Ayah, of all things. Used and described as 'quirky', but the owner's adamant on only getting the morph to us once we transfer the credits over. An Ayah would be pretty nice for my character, who's a social infiltrator type, and honestly better than the other options, but I'm leery about how cagey the owner's being. Thoughts, /epg/?

>>49966401
>But why the fuck would you limit yourselves to Flats and only Flats, as a matter of law and policy?
They don't limit officially. Genefixing is available to general population. So 100% of population can become splicers. Other biomorphs can be acquired through licensing or by working in a position where you absolutely need one.

>>49966412
>>49966291
here. Seems like the 80% figure comes from rimward

'The vast majority of Jovians (over 80%) retain
their original bodies. In fact, our Republic offers
a signifiant reward to anyone who still has their
birth body that relocates and becomes a Jovian
citizen. Many are genefied (splicers), though some
refuse out of religious objection. '

>>49966509
Yep. A little later he talks about how people with works needing special mods/morphs can get them by going through bureaucracy.

>>49966401
What makes the Jovians luddites is they claim they're all about a slow progression of tech, of making sure its all safe and sound before its put to use (a fine and laudable policy) but then ban and restrict something as simple and well understood as a cleaner swarm.
The Jovians are luddits not because they restrict the upper bounds of transhuman technology (indeed a lot of other more liberal polities have similar policies) but its the way they apply the same restrictions to the lower bounds as well. For example, genetic engineering. From the Jovian perspective its not safe because while you might be free of disease you're awesome super-immune body could be the unwitting host for diseases that can cripple a flat that you simply don't notice. Its the extremes of "well this MIGHT happen, so EVERYTHING that COULD lead to it is banned"

>>49966439
Are you sure its actually an Ayah, and not some worker pod with the bare minimum upgrades to make it pass as an Ayah?
Either that or its potentially hot, or was used for some weird stuff by the former owner. There's a 'bodyguard' variant of the Ayah out there, plus the possibility of it being a custom job for the same purpose. Make sure you're getting what you think you're getting, then go for the Ayah. No one looks at the nanny, especially if its got weird robot parts you can't fug

>>49966439
So basically a cancer ridden pod, a basilisk hacked exsurgent trying to make you buy an infected securitron and an Ayah with insane muse that hogged up part of the brain and now proclaims itself Queen Elizabeth 117 and has at least 90 in programming related skils and an antimatter bomb in skull ?

>>49966554
Well, those are all possibilities, yeah.

>>49966552
The owner sent us a proof of purchase from the Invatch conglomerate; we've checked it back against hypercorp records and it's a legitimite purchase of the Ayah about six years ago, and the purchaser then matches the identity of the guy we're buying from, so we're fairly sure it's actually an Ayah, so our guess is weird stuff.

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>>49966376
>wouldn't that be what you mostly get when you don't reproduce with an exowomb?

Yeah, but you don't need an exowomb. You could just use a good ol'-fashioned womb, unless you specifically want to grow a specific morph independent from other individuals.

Which you obviously don't, in this case.

>>49965360
>Considering most people who like Eclipse Phase aren't socialist anarchists
Speak for yourself, capitalist swine!

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>>49965372
As an IRL anarchist, it's not really an ideology for me but rather an end goal. Anarchy is the theory of a perfect society that overcomes the troubles of life and become something greater. Anarchy for me isn't the solution to poverty, corruption, inequality. It's the outcome of overcoming them. Is it realistic? Maybe not, but we haven't advanced as a species by accepting our fate as animals, and I think that's what EP tries to get to, we solve our problems or we die. If anarchy doesn't work, than we find a way to make it work.

>>49965305
There always has to be someone cheering for the losing team.

Is it okay to play as an infomorph and never sleeve into a physical morph or an eidolon?

>>49967265
Honestly, I don't see anyone winning at the "end" of Eclipse Phase.

>>49967488
You ask as if it's a moral thing.

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>>49966509
Ah, I apologize. I seem to have misremembered the quote as being "80% flats", when it is, in fact, "80% original bodies".

Sorry 'bout that.

>>49967495
tfw no TITAN waifu...

>>49967533
It's more of a practical thing. I find it a pain to rewrite my character sheet every time I change morphs.

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>>49966458
>They don't limit officially. Genefixing is available to general population. So 100% of population can become splicers. Other biomorphs can be acquired through licensing or by working in a position where you absolutely need one.

Is there a source on that, that I've just missed? Because if that's true, it makes the whole "people die of cancer, lel" practically a meme, and the writers even shittier writers than I first gave them credit for.

>>49967560
Don't you worry senpai, I bet they are coming, then you can have all the fun you want.
Or you could find a nice strain of the exsurgent virus and give it a good sniff...

>>49967587
get multiple sheets then.

>>49967607
Gene fixing aint free, and I guess not everoyne can afford it

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>>49966529
>but then ban and restrict something as simple and well understood as a cleaner swarm.

Cleaner swarms are still nanobots, though. Yeah, they're "simple" and yeah, they're "well understood", but if they malfunction or are infected by TITANs, that cleaner swarm will clean other things than trash.

Nanotech is dangerous, anon. If one nanite amongst billions of billions go rogue, it could be grey goo before you say glorp.

>>49967780
Glorious old economy!

>>49967782
>If one nanite amongst billions of billions go rogue, it could be grey goo before you say glorp.

Bullshit. Nanotech doesn't have the intelligence or the energy resources to make more of itself indefinitely. What the TITANs did with "nanotech" was GameSharking physics.

>>49967857
You said it, not me!

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>>49967780
>Gene fixing aint free, and I guess not everyone can afford it

Fair enough, but I'd still like to see something supporting it. Either way, it's still massively retarded to not have this widely available. If your workforce were at least splicers, you're probably quadruple production and efficiency.

Being at least a splicer should be all but compulsory for military service, at the very least, and career military should all be olympians, furies, and mentons. Maybe even some ghosts and crashers.

As has been said many times, Jovians invest in their military and their personnell, and are at the technological forefront when it comes to weapons and equipment. It's absurd that the government wouldn't shell out for basic healthcare, if what you're saying is true.

>>49965210
I give it 3 days max before they Iapetus every Jovian city (including independent city states), and destroy, cripple or subvert every ship. By day 5 they've likely stellarized Jupiter for their own ends.

Remember, it takes only a single speck of TITAN smart matter to subvert an entire moon.

>>49967612
I have hundreds.

>>49967949
I don't like discussing politics on the Internet, but basic healthcare benefits everyone in a society, but there is still first world society when they dont want to hear about it.
(Shit on me if you want, I aint answering)

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>>49967860
>Nanotech doesn't have the intelligence or the energy resources to make more of itself indefinitely.

It only needs to be reprogrammed or remade into being able to make more copies of itself, anon. It's not bullshit, this is the basic Grey Goo scenario.

They don't need "the intelligence or the energy resources". It will simply extract what it needs from the environment, creating new copies of itself. This is not intelligence, and the energy and raw materials are all around them.

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>>49967983
>I don't like discussing politics on the Internet, but basic healthcare benefits everyone in a society, but there is still first world society when they dont want to hear about it.
>(Shit on me if you want, I aint answering)

...what? Are you fucking drunk? Because that made absolutely no fucking sense in relation to what you were responding too.

>>49968008
Because something benefits everyone doesnt mean it will be implemented, most of the time because it benefits more to some subset of people

>>49968008
Also I may be a little drunk

>>49967994
>It's not bullshit, this is the basic Grey Goo scenario.

The basic Grey Goo scenario IS bullshit. The guy who came up with the scenario says as much.

http://nanotechweb.org/cws/article/indepth/19648

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>>49968020
>>49968035

I was talking specifically and explicitly about the Jovian armed forces, though, and referring to advanced gene fixing as "basic healthcare" practically as a joke.

Also, remember, in the Jovian Republic, you need to do military service to become a citizen. In any reasonable universe with the facts at hand, that'd mean that every citizen would be at least a splicer, is what I'm saying. And any career military should all be olympians, furies, and mentons. Maybe even some ghosts and crashers.

It's ridiculous to think that Jovians would be acknowledged to be at the technological forefront when it comes to the weapons and equipment of their soldiers, heavily investing in their military and their personnell, with a lot of civilians doing military service in order to become citizens, and not shell out for what in context would be pretty basic healthcare for their troops.

In the most relative terms, a basic Splicer, seperately grown with an exowomb and equipped with Mesh Inserts and a Cortical Stack, for use as a morph, costs anywhere between 1 500 and 10 000 credits. With tests, conditioning, training and equipment, any basic jarhead of the Jovian Military will far outclass that in terms of costs. For reference, even a basic heavy armor and an assault rifle would alone run for between 1 000 to 3 000 credits.

If it's true that the Jovian Republic allows for gene-fixing (private or otherwise) of varous kinds, the only reason I can see for them not using it as a matter of policy in their armed forces is so that the writers can go "hurf durf look how regressive these south-american christian lobbyist fascist capitalists are, top reactionary lol" before they go wallow in their political ignorance and masturbate furiously over the feminist manifesto.

>>49967949

Rimaward: Jovian Transhumanism.

Describes in general terms what and how Jovians can acquire. Basically everything above basic needs costs money and needs you to get an appropriate license or you must be a part of the military/security. Want a cortical stack ? You must be either a really valuable member of society, have a lot of money or work in some dangerous place that at the same time doesn't have x-risks (vacworkers probably should be able to get one). Military probably gets only backups through wet bridge because cortical stack is a security risk in case it is seized by the enemy. And so on.

They also seem to invest more resources into hardware instead of comp or gene sciences. It's actually not a bad idea to stack a playing field. It doesn't matter much how fast is your opponent if his weapons are too weak to do anything to you. And unlike many of their opponents Jovians do have an almost unlimited supply of raw materials for hardware.

The olympians, furies and mentons are a good idea for military but I doubt Jovians will use them unmodified. They don't seem to care much about surgical strikes. Yeah they can but it is much more reliable to use overwhelming force and that can be done cheaper.

>>49966529
A subverted cleaner swarm is basically a cloud of organic matter eating acid which can intentionally move directions, it's a pretty nasty public health problem. To solve it, you need flamethrowers, EMP (which wouldn't actually be much of a problem, but can still mess up infrastructure), or nanoswarms which can destroy substances like sapphire, which is even more of a problem if they get loose. Even safe unsubverted nanotech is still kind of nasty, nanomachines are a lot like silicate dust, and you don't want to breathe that kind of thing. If you don't have a society with basic biomods and medichines well deployed having a lot of active nanotech around can cause all kinds of problems. Silicosis (except worse, because the machines wriggle around), lung cancers, TB, kidney problems, etc.

There's a pretty good argument to be made for limiting the use of open air nanotech to sealed areas if you don't have the kind of society which can just leave a sick/damaged body in the shop for a few days while they use a rental.

>>49967949
There's a small difference between flats with basic biomods and splicers but yeah, they should push basic biomods as hard as possible. Considering the benefits most Jovians would probably want them.

IIRC Rimward actually talks about how the JSF uses a lot of specialized morphs and jammed shells in combat situations, so Furies and such are probably common.

Overall, I think it's important to remember that the Jovian government isn't actually very bioconservative, but they are very precautionist. The Jovian people tend to be very bioconservative though, which means if you're doing government work you're a lot more likely to resleeve for it.

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>>49968091
>The basic Grey Goo scenario IS bullshit. The guy who came up with the scenario says as much.

First of all, Drexler did not come up with the scenario. The scenario was first posited by John von Neumann. Drexler coined the term and applied John von Neumann's theories in a modern context.

Second, "not an essential part of the molecular manufacturing process" is pretty damn far from saying "it can't happen", or any variation thereof. Especially when we're dealing with Seed AI:s of incomprehensible intelligence capable of reprogramming whatever they want, not to mention the possibility of random mutation(s) during production.

And third, you're practically being that special kind of autist that goes into a Star Wars forum and says that Hyperspeed is bullshit and impossible, and start referring to the theory of relativity to support it, and so on and so forth.

It's retarded. Reprogrammed nanites that go wild and start replicating out of control is an established part of the setting. There's literal murder-swarms of nanites that fly around, eating people, digesting cars, hijacking machines, on Terra. Runaway nanotech was a big part of the Fall. Whether this can or will happen in reality is completely irrelevant.

Understanding the danger is the first step towards being safe, anon. Take care, be aware; don't give in to the nanite scare.

We thank you for your vigilance, civilian. There's nothing to worry about. Carry on.

>>49968684
Runaway nanotech is different from grey goo though. Self replicating nanotechnology which destroys everything to make more of itself is a potential TITAN/Exsurgent threat, but the TITANs and ETI have been pretty good about stopping their shit from doing that though, seeing as SRNs and Creepers haven't destroyed the earth. (Of course, both of those are practically magic dust)

Transhuman nanotech getting loose is is dangerous, but isn't a grey goo scenario. It's more like a nastier Bhopal Disaster, which is bad, but not the end of the world in less than a day bad. Firewall (the book) talks more about the dangers of loose nanotech and automated systems. Probably the closest to grey goo transhuman tech its is Prothean swarms programmed to make more of themselves, but that process isn't self powering, so cut the power and it stops.

There's something about an automated mne in Vietnam going rogue when its controlling AI emerges into AGI-dom and starts making demands, IIRC it got taken out by an air strike because it was threatening locals.

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>>49968481
>The olympians, furies and mentons are a good idea for military but I doubt Jovians will use them unmodified. They don't seem to care much about surgical strikes. Yeah they can but it is much more reliable to use overwhelming force and that can be done cheaper.

I was thinking entirely of career military here, for anything above splicer, and what you'd get would probably be dependent on what function you're supposed to fulfill.

Overwhelming force would likely be done with basic recruits performing a tour of duty for citizenship, but that would still be lead by career soldiers. Mentons would be good for strategists, generals, colonels, etc., furies for jarhead sergeants, etc., and olympians for all-round personnell, possibly the navy.

Ghosts and crashers would be for surgical strikes and special assignments and so on, but those would really be the outliers, extremely few in number, probably.

While it's obvious that they seem to invest more resources into hardware instead of gene-splicing, it's ultimately a question of long-term viability and cost-efficiency.

The cost of making a flat into a splicer is peanuts compared to the cost of equipping and training a soldier over the course of two years or more, and it would mean that even if that soldier does not go career, they'll be a more productive civilian. It would also be an added incentive to get people to actually do military service, the value of being gene-fixed being almost incalculable to the individual person.

Remember, it's not just clinical immortality (ignoring stacks here), but the total aptitude average increases by anywhere from 10% to 150% (the flat average being 6 to 10, and the splicer average being 11 to 15). A splicer at the top of their game will always be at least 50% better than a flat at the top of theirs.

These are not things you'll compensate with gear, and the effect will be even greater and more consistent the more people you have.

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>>49968401
The Jovian military isn't designed that way, in fact it could possibly even harm them to "upgrade" to furies, olympians, and mentons. Why? Because it's stated that the Jovian's design their military around exploiting weaknesses in the transhumanist's designs. It's kind of like one of the arguments people in real life make against transhumanism, once you start "upgrading" people, our design will start to become similar, opening us up to various diseases and problems that we wouldn't have had to deal with otherwise. The Jovian's can exploit this.

An example of what I'm talking about would be cyberbrains. Sure, not everyone is a cyberbrain in transhuman territory, but every single cyberbrain is vulnerable to being hacked. The Jovian's are giving up their advantage if they give up their flats.

And of course there's also the fact that it goes against everything the Jovian's stand for. Sure, the writers could write that in, but then the Jovians would just be another LLA, and that's not what they're about.

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>>49968833
>Runaway nanotech is different from grey goo though.

Fair enough, but in the context of the initial points, this is really just splitting hair.

>>49969059
>Mentons would be good for strategists, generals, colonels, etc., furies for jarhead sergeants, etc., and olympians for all-round personnell, possibly the navy.
And that's one of the places where Jovians probably will be very cautious about employing these morphs. Because changes in the brain don't just "add intelligence". That's what we see from outside of game perspective. But the overall hormonal balance and neurophysiology of brains will change. It's hard to say how. And it's hard to say what can be lost in translation from flat to a new morph especially if said flat had exceptional aptitude (talent in some field).

Clinical immortality is not a problem. As well as getting to splicer level without resleeving.

>A splicer at the top of their game will always be at least 50% better than a flat at the top of theirs.
Unless said flat has exceptional aptitude. And don't forget that old Jovians are military personnel and astronauts send to Jupiter by America, China and Russia. So they had a really heavy screening process for their abilities.

You also assume that all people will get to the "top of the game". Which is not the case. Most people are average and don't care to move through a long and arduous process of competing for a place in the first ranks. So you will be just wasting resources. Why not take those who already has all the needed personal quirks?

>>49969116
Yeah that's fair, I just didn't want to lose the distinction there.

>>49969284
Exceptional aptitude doesn't give you +5 to an aptitude, which is the primary advantage a splicer has over a flat (excluding some implant differences which are easy to change)

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>>49969084
>The Jovian military isn't designed that way
The issue with that argument is that we're not talking about cyberbrains or mass-produced, cloned morphs. We're talking about gene-fixing soldiers (and by extension, citizens), with the majority of their genes still the same, sticking to a subset of very much still human types.

And while it's mentioned that the Jovians attempt to exploit weaknesses in the transhumanist's designs, this isn't the same as the Jovians using those same designs, and it's not even stated what that means.

It could be referring to cyberbrains, which isn't what we're talking about. It could be referring to the use of nanites, which isn't questioned or relevant. It could be referring to uplifts or pods, which are very different from basic human morphs or gene-fixing. It could be referring to targeting more "unnatural" or very specific, primarily manufactured morphs, such as Ariels, Cloud Skates, Greys, or even Rusters, all with very specific physiologies.

If it would be referring to using things like biological agents or nanites targeting specific types of morphs, or transhumans in general (say, anyone missing a specific trash gene that is commonly replaced for whatever reason) the Jovians would be even more vilified than they already are, nevermind that they'd already have won back the solar system. Dump a tank of it on Luna, one in the Commonwealth, and one on a scum barge. Done.

>there's also the fact that it goes against everything the Jovian's stand for.

Yeah, no, that's just it, it wouldn't. Literally nothing substantial would change in any meaningful way.

The only thing it'd go against is the concept of the Jovian Republic as overly religious regressive luddite boogeymen republicans that are fascists and lobbyists at the same time, randomly oppressive, wilfully totalitarian, ignorant, and backwards for no particular reason.

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>>49969284
>A splicer at the top of their game will always be at least 50% better than a flat at the top of theirs

That, to me, indicates that there's been some serious tampering with the genetics that might mean the splicers aren't "human" per se.

Take the exalts, for example. If we take aptitude as the people being at the "top of their game", and exalt which is supposedly just a optimized human will always be twice as good as a flat, even the best flat, which simply doesn't make any sense. It'd be like saying that even Usain bolt had a few different genetics then all of a sudden he could run 54 mph. Either these splicers and exalts aren't human, or aptitude isn't a fair representation of ability.

Besides, aptitude just represents humans at their base, when they don't have any knowledge or skill in a particular field. An unmodified flat can still shoot and dodge with the best of them as long as he has the skill.

>>49969393
>Exceptional aptitude doesn't give you +5 to an aptitude
Yes. In case of a character it means a +10 normally. Jovians already has a good way of finding individuals with needed skills - process of acquiring citizenship. Which they also use for many other things. And they offer a way to get all the benefits of the splicer for general population. Those who have the drive can get it with reasonable difficulty.

People that don't care about acquiring benefits of the splicer and don't better themselves in other ways are just wasted resources in case of giving them other morphs.

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>>49963874
How bad was the fall for the average human, and how badass do you have to have been to fought during it and escaped?

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>>49969408
>The only thing it'd go against is the concept of the Jovian Republic as overly religious regressive luddite boogeymen republicans that are fascists and lobbyists at the same time, randomly oppressive, wilfully totalitarian, ignorant, and backwards for no particular reason.

None of those things are really related to them being flats though, they could totally choose to only have flats and still be a reasonable faction.

In fact I'd argue that they already are a perfectly reasonable faction, my only problem is the tone that the authors have when addressing them (aka using words like Reagan, Nixon, Junta, etc)

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>>49969284
>And don't forget that old Jovians are military personnel and astronauts send to Jupiter by America, China and Russia. So they had a really heavy screening process for their abilities.

That's a vanishingly small percentage of the total Jovian population in 10 AF. Don't be ridiculous.

>You also assume that all people will get to the "top of the game".

I did, in fact, do the literal opposite. Read it again.

>So you will be just wasting resources.
>10-150% average increase in ability at a fraction of the price of gear and training
>wasting resources

I don't even know how to respond to this.

>Why not take those who already has all the needed personal quirks?

Because that's an exceptionally small amount of the population, even if the Jovian Republic didn't already depend on volunteers and mass amounts of Non-Coms.

>>49969408
> nevermind that they'd already have won back the solar system
While some portion of Jovian citizens would be okay with that general public won't support genocide. The Fall is a fresh memory.

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>>49969488
Pretty freaking badass if you survived physically (without uploading yourself off planet). Which is probably why the Jovian Republic is so great, it's filled with all the badasses that didn't get their heads ripped off or sell their souls to companies that still managed to escape, and not only that but most of them are flats too. The only people more badass are the people still on Earth, surviving to this day among the TITAN machines.

>>49969488
>and how badass do you have to have been to fought during it and escaped?

That's not about being badass, that's about being lucky.

>>49969481
Exceptional aptitude doesn't give any aptitude directly, it only increases the cap. It allows an aptitude 10 higher than normal, but explicitly does not increase the aptitude. IMO it's usually a waste unless you're trying to cram a Fetch or Promethean Fork into a physical morph without loss of capability.

>>49969488
The average human is 19/20ths dead. The Fall killed roughly 19 in every 20 people, so pretty fucking bad. Being connected or getting off earth early (ideally years early) helps, but being a badass just means you live longer on a hellhole. The Ultimates did fight during the fall some and escaped, but that has more to do with being in close with people who control the beanstalks and shuttles than anything else. Really, it's a question of luck. No amount of being badass saves you from the Creeper emerging underneath you as it turns of Noclip

>>49969533
>and not only that but most of them are flats too
In this very thread this was called into question/debunked. This is bait isn't it?

>>49969506
>That's a vanishingly small percentage of the total Jovian population in 10 AF. Don't be ridiculous.
>Because that's an exceptionally small amount of the population
It always will be a small amount of population unless you go with some really radical psychosurgery on a grand scale. And I doubt even Jovian Security Council will be okay with that. Even though they are ice hearted ruthless bastards.

>So you will be just wasting resources.
>10-150% average increase in ability at a fraction of the price of gear and training
>wasting resources
>I don't even know how to respond to this.
You get 10% maybe, 150% is highly questionable. Don't forget that you don't need raw abilities from general population but skills. And for skills it will be 10% at best. You also underestimate people laziness. Many will just work less while getting same pay as before because it is comfortable for them and they can do it now.

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>>49969500
>they could totally choose to only have flats and still be a reasonable faction.

Of course, that is technically possible.

The issue only really is that it's utter nonsense, given what we know about the Jovian Republic. You can have a good faction that would be flats-only. That was never the issue.

The issue is that there is absolutely no reason for the Jovian Republic as described on an objective level, ignoring writer tone and retardation, to fetishise flats as a matter of principle, especially when it comes to their military and their citizens.

It's just nonsense without cause, to make the Jovians out as silly regressives to be ridiculed, the same reason they're the only faction questioning ego-casting/resleeving/digitized immortality, on religious grounds, no less.

>>49969594
>Exceptional aptitude doesn't give any aptitude directly, it only increases the cap. It allows an aptitude 10 higher than normal, but explicitly does not increase the aptitude. IMO it's usually a waste unless you're trying to cram a Fetch or Promethean Fork into a physical morph without loss of capability.
It's a waste from a player perspective. In setting it means that character is badass in his chosen profession and probably has an aptitude maxed or nearly maxed. Of course there will be people who are good at something but do it as a hobby only.

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>>49969508
>While some portion of Jovian citizens would be okay with that general public won't support genocide. The Fall is a fresh memory.

Absolutely, which is part of why it's so silly. The Jovians nuking habs with biological agents or nanites targeting specific things would be a big deal, and something that'd be blown wide open, probably by the writers of Eclipse Phase themselves. We shouldn't give them any ideas.

>How can we make the Jovians even more villainous? Can we name a hab after Stalin and claim he was state capitalist?
>No, I know, let's use nerve agents that only target minorities, by which I mean transhumans, and melts their faces off.
>Yeah, and let's the Catholic Church show it all live on a wide-screen display in church while an AR-overlay flashes "Buy Bibles!" on top!

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>>49969640
But the religiousness of the Jovian's makes sense, it'd be the natural reaction to an event such as the fall. Both of the Americas are already exceptionally religious, and when you watch 90% of humanity die as a result of its own technology but you make it out with your original body then there's going to be a strong tendency towards religion. Since most Christian sects tend to stay away from altering the human body except to fix diseases and problems like autism, then most of the Jovian's won't want to do that either.

Frankly, if I wanted non-religious Jovian's who aren't afraid of exalts, I'd go with the LLA. That's basically what they're there for.

>>49969716
I don't think even father Alexander Anderson would be okay with this.

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>>49969488
>How bad was the fall for the average human
Really, really, really, really, really bad. One might go to say that the average human is dead, because more people died during the Fall than was alive afterwards. Only about 500 millions (if I remember correctly) survived the fall.

Only 10 years later, counting people that has been insatiated from recovered backups, is transhumanity approaching 1 billion again.

And that likely also includes AGI:s and Uplifts, so actual "humans" is even lower. Nevermind that many of them are sleeved into synths and cases, more or less against their will, and are now indentured servants, working off their debts.

>and how badass do you have to have been to fought during it and escaped?
Most likely, you were only lucky. I think only one direct confrontation with the TITANs were ever successful (again, if I remember correctly), and it was performed by members of Ultimates, a post-human (or aspiring post-human) faction based on ascetic virtues, self-improvement, discipline, and militarism.

And they were pretty fucking hardcore.

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Who would win in a fight, all the Ultimates vs all the Jovian's?

>>49969762
>But the religiousness of the Jovian's makes sense

Nobody said anything else, anon. You're fighting windmills.

>Frankly, if I wanted non-religious Jovian's who aren't afraid of exalts, I'd go with the LLA.

If that's all you want, that's practically every other faction in the entire game. The LLA, however, much like practically every other faction in the entire game, are quite far from being anything like the Jovians.

>>49969978
Jovians.

Their fleet will reduce ultimates to plasma clouds.

Any time you talk about fighting Jovians think about how you will deal with their fleet first.

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>>49970013
Okay, so I guess what you're saying is you want a faction that is cautious and preparing against the TITANs, but also uses exalts, ghosts, mentons, and such, right?

>>49969978
That really depends on what kind of fleet assets the Ultimates have, we know they have some, but it is not clear how much they have or how good it is.

>>49970128
Which is basically the LLA

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>>49969978
Jovians, easily. Even with the herp derp handicap of being mostly flats for no reason, the Jovian Republic by far outclass the Ultimates in terms of resources, accumulated experience, overall technology, equipment, and especially manpower.

It wouldn't even be anything resembling a fair fight. The Ultimates, at best, would be a small terrorist faction trying to attack the Jovians, maybe killing (perhaps some of them even permanently!) some individuals in the upper echelons, perhaps bringing down a couple of habs, killing a couple of tens of thousand people.

But the Jovians would still curbstomp them to hell and back in anything resembling a standing fight.

Realistically speaking, no single faction can take on the Jovian Republic, and coalitions are hesitant to even try. The Ultimates, should they concern themselves with factional warfare, would probably have problems wiping out any one of the major factions.

The Ultimates are powerful, but it's basically a small sect. For reference, only 150 to 200 would qualify as "Rajput" - the ones that engaged the TITANs during the Fall and lived to tell the tale. I don't think any of the books state just how many Ultimates there are, but I would expect there to be no more than a couple of tens of thousands, at best - but my own guesstimate would be far more conservative, based on the general impression I get from reading about them.

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>>49970128
>Okay, so I guess what you're saying is you want a faction that is cautious and preparing against the TITANs, but also uses exalts, ghosts, mentons, and such, right?

No, I want the Jovians to not be shat upon by shitty writing and be regressive retards for no particular reason other than the writer's urge to hamfistedly politicize.

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>>49970141
>Which is basically the LLA
Okay if you're the same person as before you gotta help me along here. I don't know what you want from the Jovian's. My only problem with them is the tone from the writers.

>>49970144
There is probably tens of thousands of "acolytes" who want to become ultimates but numbers of full members is really low.

>>49970197
Modify setting for the game? I did exactly that. Also made corpies not so single minded and less "lol lets sell their organs and all the other stuff for lulz"

>>49969922
Keep in mind that even before TITAN direct involvement most of the people were already dead - world war 3 was in full swing, with superpowers engaged in full-scale nuclear attacks and total warfare. Then, only when most of humanity's military and industry turned to ash, TITANs began overt operations, and even then, until the very fucking last, humans kept attacking each other instead of TITANs. If you look at actual stats of TITAN war machinery - well, yes, it's somewhat better than human samples, but TITANs were winning the war not because of their technological edge.
Indeed, the Ultimates led several somewhat successful anti-TITAN ops, despite them being few in numbers, and despite TITANs surely recognizing them as a bigger threat. So, with a healthy mix of uniting the humanity against the common enemy, militarizing the population, and relying on analog tech, skill, and robust anti-nanotech rajput-style TITAN remnants can and should be eradicated.

t. reclaimer

>>49970141
>Which is basically the LLA

The LLA is pretty far from being "basically the Jovian Republic, but uses exalts, ghosts, mentons and such", though. The LLA is a loose alliance of habs, with very little in terms of authoritarianism or militarism, and pretty much anything goes, whether we're talking uplifts or cortical stacks, resleeving left and right, AI:s, AGI:s, infomorphs or synths. Comparing the two gets a bit silly after a while.

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>>49970197
Oh, there you are. Okay, I understand your frustration, but one persons regressiveness is another persons reasonableness. I understand that having flats doesn't greatly add to the defensibility of the Jovian's against the TITANs (or against most people really) but as you said earlier its perfectly possible for there to be a good faction that uses flats, and its perfectly reasonable for the Jovian's to be religious, and given the recent apocalypse the Jovian's being ultra-cautious makes sense, so I don't understand how you want the Jovian's to be different. They already take a bunch of precautions against technology that was exploited by the TITANs while still develop technology designed to subvert TITAN and transhuman tech, and it is even said in the books that the Jovian's are the only guys with basically no x-threats in their territory so obviously whatever they're doing is working.

Are you like me and you just wish the writers weren't so bad and hamfisted with the tone (like calling the cylinders Reagan cylinders). I will note that while the Reagan cylinders may suffer from radiation problems, it doesn't make sense for people to still have cancer. The Jovian's are stated to have excellent healthcare, and I think healthcare is even one of the things that they do use nano-machines for, so there shouldn't be a cancer epidemic in the habitats.

>>49970381
Considering that setting has non nanomachine based gene-therapy (even if it counts as a pants ass backwards) cancer makes even less sense.

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>>49970263
>Modify setting for the game?

Well, yeah, obviously, if I were to GM it myself, I probably would, and tell my players that the Jovian Republic isn't retarded in my game, but it wouldn't change the annoyance of them being canonically nonsensical in this regard.

But bar the writers pulling their heads out of their collective ass, I don't think there's anything else to do about it.

>>49970426
Yeah, it makes about as much sense as not gene-fixing the recruits for your military, and let them get herpes during shore-leave.

>>49970485
Herpesviridae lives matter.

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>>49970485
So your basic biomod does this according to the wiki:

>A morph with basic biomods heals twice as fast as an early 21st century human, gradually regrows lost body parts, is immune to all normal diseases (from cancer to the flu), and is largely immune to aging. In addition, the morph requires no more than 3-4 hours of sleep per night, is immune to ill-effects from long-term exposure to low or zero gravity, and does not naturally suffer from biological problems like depression, shock reactions after being injured, or allergies.

Now let's just be clear here, that's some serious alteration. It makes you immune to aging for goodness sake, I could easily see a religious population taking issue with even the basic splicer. It's not like a splicer is just a human without genetic diseases, it's a seriously altered person entirely.

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>>49970553
>Now let's just be clear here, that's some serious alteration.

Not necessarily.

>It makes you immune to aging for goodness sake.

First of all, it's *largely* immune to aging. But also, that's probably the easiest of the things it does, honestly. That and regrowing body parts.

Immunity to diseases, especially cancer, is something I'd like to hear some technobabble on how they pulled off, considering that diseases change and adabt over time, and cancer is really just your own cells going bananas after random(?) mutation.

>I could easily see a religious population taking issue with even the basic splicer.

The Jovian Republic is fine with it, though, as settled earlier in the thread.

>It's not like a splicer is just a human without genetic diseases, it's a seriously altered person entirely.

Massive, enormous hyperbole, with very little to substantiate it.

You're still you, in every relevant meaning of the word, if you undergo a gene-fixing process, and you'd still maintain the vast majority of your genes and genetic sequencing, and if you happened to be born that way, it would matter even less.

>>49970553
You realize that the rich and powerful in the Jovian Republic are almost all not Flats, and that gene-fixing is widely available (but largely too expensive for commoners)? Did you even read the discussion in which you're taking part?

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>>49970796
Okay, I'm stupid. Apparently the genetic tweaks are very small, most of the work is done through bacteria and tweaked viruses. While I'd like to know how the heck that works, for most of the population, including the Catholic church, such changes would be fine.

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>>49970553
see
>>49968401
>>49968481

tl;dr: jovian cancer is nonsense, jovians not gene-fixing recruits as a matter of policy is nonsense

>>49968401
BTW does anyone think this guys pic makes a really good look for the Jovian soldiers? I'm gonna use this whenever I think of what they look like from now on.

>>49970317
That makes me wanna murderfuck TITAN ass. Granted I also like to GM 90+% of everyone in the setting more or less having PTSD

>>49966066
Except they don't disallow Sleeving. They merely regulate it.

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>>49971278
Yeah, I want to imagine that that is the basic combat set or so. The basic light/medium armour with the standard rifle, used by recruits, and the helmet has a full AR interface, to compensate for the lack of Mesh Inserts.

I expect career military and shock troopers to be a bit beefier, though. It's obvious that the Jovian Republic is really inspired by Starship Troopers (although I get the feeling the writers only read about it on wikipedia) and I'd expect some kind of power armour/exoskeleton in most cases.

The Jovian Military is supposed to be second-to-none in terms of weapons, armour and equipment. At the very least, I'd expect a basic exowalker skeleton, with many even having full battlesuits or powersuits.

Hell, even the navy personell probably have Mobility Frames as part of their uniforms. It's cheap as hell.

>picture probably unrelated

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>>49971571
So what I'm hearing is that the Jovian defenses aren't all in vain. Cause usually when the Jovian's are brought up there tends to be a lot of people saying "nothing can stop the TITANs so it's all pointless anyway"

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>>49971573
Let's be fair on that point, though; for all practical intents and purposes, sleeving is disallowed. Saying it's "regulated" suggests that you can resleeve, you just need to do it at the right facility, or get your morphs at a vetted retailer.

Sleeving isn't regulated, it's restricted. Only select personell is allowed to sleeve/resleeve, and only for select reasons. The same goes for things like ego-casting and using cortical stacks, or even making backups, afaik. It's easier to get into the backup system, though, probably.

This may or may not apply to the uppermost echelons of jovian society, but then we're talking about corruption, at which point the discussion becomes moot, since they can do whatever the hell they want.

>>49971674
What really matters is what the TITANs want to accomplish, and what they're willing to expend to get it done. Having more defenses raises that expenditure, but can't stop the TITANs if they want to get something from Jupiter badly enough.

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>>49971678
Let's view this from a philosophical standpoint though, most of the Jovian's (and I) view resleeving as killing yourself and having a copy of yourself live on.

So from the point of the Jovian's, asking to be resleeved is basically asking to have assisted suicide, followed by creation of an entirely new person, who's in a body that the Jovian's find reprehensible. It ain't happening.

That being said, genefixing is still an option. So there's that.

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>>49971813
Yeah, it is possible that the Jovian's could become the Switzerland of the solar system though, being not unbeatable by any nation, but not worth invading either.

I'm starting to get why so many people were banned from the official forums if all you do is stroke off the Jovian Junta like cancer.

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>>49971926
>Calling it a Junta instead of a republic
>Fell for the anarchist meme
>Can't see how hamfisted the writers are
>Jovian's are based

>>49971926

Look man, if I have to choose between +biocons and shadowdragon whatever the number after his name is

I'll take the Jovian Jerkoff Brigade any day of the week.

>>49972034
Not nearly as hamfisted as this cancer.

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>>49972150
It really is cancer...

>>49972137
Agreed.

>>49972150

Fucking this.

>>49972137

Don't know man, I would take almost any amount of magical realm over some lone troll insisting that that some regressive militaty junta is an alright place to live, by pushing shitty fascist fan fiction for days.

>>49972412
Writer's of Eclipse Phase
>"Hey, you who sucks? Religious people."
>"I know right, and how about those people who like government."
>"Oh, they are just the worst, but you know who's even worse, people who like their humanity."
>"Ugh, I can't stand those people. Especially the ones who think forks are people."
>"I know right? Forks are nothing more than slaves man, nothing more, nothing less."
>"Let's not forget those capitalists. Those are literally Hitler."
>"Hey guys, I got an idea for a new faction, let's combine everything we hate, and call it a faction!"
>"That sounds great, but they still don't sound bad enough, so let's also make them authoritarian hypocrites!"
>"Yeah, that sounds great! And everybody will hate them and call them stupid poopy-heads!"
>"What are we waiting for? Let's write this!"

>>49972540
This isn't a straw man, but I've heard it so many times that it might as well be.

>>49972412
>only one person can possibly think the junta is shittily written
Also bitching about magical realm at every opportunity for no reason is the worst cancer /tg/ has ever spawned.

>>49972540

That 'fascist' bit was uncalled for, I apologize. However from where I am sitting everything posted is subjectively shitty and definitely fan fiction which connection to the setting is tenuous at best.

Also thank you for green texting me and underlining the total lack of merits your arguments have, because that just proves you are just here to shitpost and nothing else.

>>49972613

>Also bitching about magical realm at every opportunity for no reason is the worst cancer /tg/ has ever spawned.

I actually agree, but that is still better than having to read setting unrelated fanfiction by a shitposter taking Jovecock in every orifice.

Also, nice phonepost troll.

How would a guy who tries to succeed only through hard work and guts adapt to the EP setting?

>>49972691
>nice phonepost
So you really are saying
>only one person can possibly think the junta is shittily written

>>49973089
sorry, your in the wrong thread, this one's full of jovians.

>>49973089

Flat. Dump everything into skills. Max moxie. Good rep in the networks that award good deeds more than knowing the right people (avoid @-rep, f-rep; go in on r-rep, g-rep, x-rep.)

>>49973089
Become an extropian

What do you think standard issue equipment for Jovian marines is, /tg/? Battlesuit with some form of zero-g maneuver, railgun automatic rifle with underbarrel seeker, monofilament sword?

I find it kinda sad that these threads got taken over by luddites who are anti-tech, humanity only just as some kind of protest against the writers of the setting.

What would have been embraced 6 years ago is now the bogeyman. Thanks SJWs.

Jovians are shit and I make sure to infect everyone I see with super nano aids.

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>>49974338
I know right? I bet they don't even like Unit 731 or Josef Mengele, what a bunch of anti-science fundamentalists. Because clearly anyone who is cautious of any science for any reason (even is said science recently killed 6 billion people) is just a simple minded luddite.

>>49969978
Ultimates put their caches of TITAN weapons to use, Jovians are dead within 1 day of war declaration, the end.

>>49974469
>recently
>implying holocauset happened for science


You ignorant fucktards are really disgusting, did you put all your skills into Strawmanning?

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>>49974656
>Implying I implied holocaust was for science
>Implying all science is good
>Ignoring that the TITANs and exsurgent virus was science

>>49974765
>exsurgent virus was science
[citation needed]

Exsurgent virus was an alien attack, it did not originate on earth. It has absolutely nothing to do with science, and without it Seed AIs work out just fine, see: Prometheans

Just go and live in a cave if you are that scared of reality.

>tfw you have to give your custom built robot pet a synthetic mask just to avoid scaring guests

>tfw it's still better than fleeing in terror from the Fall and it's aftermath

How customizable are case morphs?

>>49977263
as customizable as any other morph

there's no "you can't" in EP

>>49977263
>>49977301

Why would you customize a literal Lemon is the only real question.

>>49977450
Players who willingly play Lemon morphs are the best kind of players.

>>49977635

Well, out of character, players who take those traits are great. It's amazing as a GM when the player just hands you stuff like Errant/Lost Fork or Edited Memories or Schizophrenia.

In-character though, Cases are known pieces of shit, so it'd be weird for most people to invest time and resources into them rather than just upgrade.

Are Jovians allowed to leave the Republic permanently if they so choose or do they have a Norkish setup?

>>49973365
this, or Ultimate

>>49972691
one factor I think is that people are not used to seeing radical idealogies, eg Technosocialists, completely unregulated markets, anarhco-syndicalism, written any validity.
It doesn't help that they make sense as antagonists by being all about tech restrictions and philosophical anti-transhumanism in a game where there is scant narrative and tactical reason not to play a transhuman.

Did the authors make them more of a political punching bag than they needed to be? For a product intended to appeal to a diverse political audience (an intention it may not really have), yeah. I would agree that Rimward made them a lot better.

>>49978016
To be fair, every faction is better in Sunward/Rimward

>>49978016
Jovians are fine in the setting imo. The whole /tg/ outrage "waaaah muh 40k space muhreens humanity fuck yeah faction isn't portrayed like i want to waaah" is cancer.

>>49978126
There's a big difference between a faction being portrayed differently than you'd like and a faction being portrayed as strawmen antagonists. That being said, I'm pretty tired of the 5 things.

>>49978173

We've been hitting them pretty hard lately. Did we like, get a lot of new posters in or something?

>>49972691
>However from where I am sitting everything posted is subjectively shitty and definitely fan fiction which connection to the setting is tenuous at best.

What, specifically? I can't see any "fanfiction" in the thread, even from a strawman POV.

>>49978253
>get a lot of new posters in or something?
I'm not sure. What I am sure about is that physical spaceship crews don't make any sense in AF10.

>>49980017

Well, all ships have numbers for "passengers", crew unspecified, sense or no.

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Why does one guy keep posting Gabe as a Jovian? He seems, actual personality aside, to be a lot more like an Ultimate.

>>49974240
Add also laser PD systems a-la Predator on shoulders. Though instead of frying people they would shoot down incoming missiles and similar things.

>>49974338
Than maybe you should start a conversation about other aspect of the setting? I talk about Jovians and Corpies exactly because they are supposed to be antagonists. And I love antagonists in my games even if not sympathetic than at least effective at what they do.

When I was making a game I made sure that players would understand that yes many of the Jovian security personnel are paranoid, OCD maniacs with a fetish for big weapons. But they make it work and you'll need to somehow go through them for your mission. Even if you don't meet them in person you'll need to deal with their plans.

Same goes for Corpies. They are ruthless and uncaring but always keep a hand on what happens and make sure that general public supports their plans. They make good things for population not because they care but because it makes controlling and exploiting it easier. So they have these people who are all smiles that make sure everything goes smoothly.

>>49964460
I'm pretty sure that even in the Jovian republic most people are splicers

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>>49974765
>implying the holocaust happened

Stay mad, anarkiddies.

>>49978173
>tired of the 5 things
But should you have manned spaceships?

>>49977743
>In-character though, Cases are known pieces of shit, so it'd be weird for most people to invest time and resources into them rather than just upgrade.

In character, you might just not like the idea of actually killing yourself just to give some other person that's a copy of you a better body.

Realistically speaking, most people would probably be pretty damn hesitant to resleeve.

If a player would be willing to stick with a Case, I'd probably just make a trait/augment that'd let him get rid of Lemon or make other upgrades, at least up to the level of a Synth, in due time.

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>>49980416

>>49980442
Resleeving usually involves ego bridging and you're aware for the entire process.

>>49980442

Well, you're already a copy of a dead guy if you're in a Case - probably one stuck in a deadbeat slavery job too. Why not give the next iteration of you a more comfortable ride?

I'm also pretty sure "upgrading to" morphs in the sense of physically restructuring your a morph you already have to "become" a new morph type is intended neither by the in-setting technology nor the out-setting theme.

But that argument never goes anywhere other than the other guys usually just repeating "nuh-uh, nothing says just sticking basic biomods in a Flat DOESN'T make it a Splicer. Aptitude bonuses and caps? Those things don't help my argument, so clearly those numbers mean nothing!"

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>>49980394
If splicers are in the majority, it's by a small number, at best. It's repeatedly implied throughout the books that flats make up a significant portion of the population in the Jovian Republic.

That being said, though, I agree. The whole idea that Jovians are all flats just doesn't make sense, and gene-fixing isn't just legal, but probably encouraged within the government, if not straight-up mandatory above Citizen, at least.

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>>49980497
>Well, you're already a copy of a dead guy if you're in a Case - probably one stuck in a deadbeat slavery job too. Why not give the next iteration of you a more comfortable ride?

Because that next iteration wouldn't be you. The fact that you started your current life as a copy of someone that died doesn't change that fact.

>I'm also pretty sure "upgrading to" morphs in the sense of physically restructuring your a morph you already have to "become" a new morph type is intended neither by the in-setting technology nor the out-setting theme.

In the case of biomorphs, it's possible through healing vats, to add augments, traits, or change the morph. I'd probably veto changing, say, a ghost into an octomorph, but a splicer into a menton, or a flat into a splicer? Absolutely.

In the case of synthmorphs, it's really just a question of modifying yourself. You could probably even just move the cyberbrain, if you want to, from one shell to another.

When I meant was basically just applying upgrades to get a case up to a Synth's level, and it'd have to be custom stuff, obviously - there's no rules for partially changing a synth into another, or removing things like Lemon (afaik).

>But that argument never goes anywhere other than the other guys usually just repeating "nuh-uh, nothing says just sticking basic biomods in a Flat DOESN'T make it a Splicer. Aptitude bonuses and caps? Those things don't help my argument, so clearly those numbers mean nothing!"

Never having seen a discussion like that, it sounds like a complete strawman.

>a world where all perversions are permitted somewhere
>people still try to hide their own perversions from everyone, themselves included

Why do people on these boards take such offense to the idea that people might actually like the Jovian Republic?

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>>49981799
I'm unsure what you mean, given that a lot of these last two threads have been people saying they're sympathetic to the Jovians and even people who disagree with their ideaology saying they're poorly written.

>>49981799
Nobody does. They just take offence to the 7 years of complaining by /pol/ack jovefags.

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>>49981799
Because there's people that are as indoctrinated and brainwashed as the writers, and just as hamfisted in their approach to politics, nevermind just as politically ignorant.

But most people aren't quite that retarded, which is why it's usually pretty easy to ignore them.

>>49981827
There's a lot positive about the Jovians. It's not their politics. It's their philosophy.

You people are why so many people are scared of biocons. They assume it's a bunch of god fearing /pol/acks, not regular fucking people who are scared of what is obviously them dying.

>>49981845
No, I think the problem is none of us are recognizing that an apocalypse just happened in the setting. 90% of humanity was just killed off, yet the faction that takes the most precautions against that happening again is called "paranoid" and "authoritarian". It's almost laughable, like if this was Pacific Rim the Jovians are the only ones building walls and Jaegers and everyone else is just like "we won't survive anyway so might as well watch a bunch of anime till we die".

>>49981872
It's more laughable that the Jovians think they have any sort of a chance. The Pre-Fall Earth militaries, which would wipe the floor with them like it was nothing, crumpled like a house of cards. There's no hope to stand against the TITANs. None. The best you can do is run and hide.

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>>49981845
>There's a lot positive about the Jovians. It's not their politics. It's their philosophy.

I agree completely.

>You people are why so many people are scared of biocons.
>"You people"
>"people are scared of biocons"

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you were clinically retarded.

>They assume it's a bunch of god fearing /pol/acks, not regular fucking people who are scared of what is obviously them dying.

I've repeatedly stated that Eclipse Phase could do well by having factions that aren't overtly religious, democratic and/or conservative, but still question technical immortality and transhumanist memes.

Don't cut yourself on that edge of yours, anarkiddo. Put it back up your ass before you hurt someone.

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Can anyone answer this? >>49977952

>>49981883
Okay, that comparison is disingenuous. First, the pre fall militaries fought each other well into Fall, they did most of the damage to themselves. Second, the pre fall militaries were designed to be subverted, and so when the time came for the TITANs to attack pretty much the entire military turned against their nation. Those basic combat pods? Every single one of them was vulnerable to the TITANs. The Jovian military is designed to force the TITANs to engage in direct combat, where it's been proven they can be defeated, and the Jovians have run countless simulations and training exercises against the TITANs. They have basically no x-threats within their territory, and it's been acknowledged that they stand the best chance against the TITANs

>>49981924
>it's been acknowledged that they stand the best chance against the TITANs
They may be the toughest nut to crack in the Solar system but the TITANs are infinitely smarter than the Jovians will ever be. After the TITANs destroy, subvert, and harvest the resources from every other faction they'll come for the JR. Then it's only a matter of time before they win. The best and only chance for humanity's long term survival is to send generation ships in every direction.

>>49981983
You're assuming the TITANs will want to attack the Jovians. Considering the extensive defenses they have set up, it's very likely the TITANs might leave them alone, considering them a waste of resources to attack (like Nazi German and Switzerland).

Of course, the Jovians don't even need to hold out forever, just until the TITANs leave again. Considering the defenses, they could probably hold out for quite a while.

Even if the TITANs didn't leave, you're still ridiculing a faction for trying to fight for survival instead of giving in to despair and hedonism. Like the Pacific Rim example again, the Kaiju may not stop coming, but that doesn't mean the logical action is to lie down and die.

>>49981909
Officially you can't leave forever. Temporary visas can be arranged for citizens. And many diplomats probably work for prolonged periods of time beyond Republic borders.

Civilians are bared from leaving at all. But Republic most of the time doesn't bother enforcing it. After all if you are an adult and still civilian you don't want to work for the Republic so there is not many benefits in keeping you.

How could you justify playing a Jovian character in a game set outside of Jupiter? Especially a transient Firewall agent.

>>49982029
I usually act like I'm a double agent for the Jovians, so I'll sneak them bits of information regarding the location of cells or known traitors within the Republic whenever I can.

>>49982029
No problem. You could just be a Jovian that have emigrated, you can be a missionary of the church, you could be a researcher or investigator, overtly reporting to the Junta, you could be a reporter or ambassador, or a minor (or major) official working for some form of embassy, you could be a spy, either spying on firewall or on whatever govenrment the campaign is taking place, or you could be an intelligence liason between Firewall and the SCI, representing some intelligence cell or office that is dojng this in secret (obviously).

There's a ton of possibilities, it depends on what you want to do. The hardest is probably a career soldier, excusing what you're doing.

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Update on the cancer.

>>49975660
Serves you right, TITAN lover.

>>49982029
If you're a Firewall agent, then presumably you can justify things by saying that some deep cover agent in Firewall pulled some strings to speed up the process of getting an exit visa for your trip to Europa - once there, it'll be a bit easier to slip out, do your Firewall stuff, and come back. You'll inevitably face some fairly heavy questioning and pointed questions on your return, so better make sure your story is fucking watertight, or hope that the same shadowy benefactor who helped push through your visa is also willing to help you avoid too much interrogation on the way home.

Or you could just go with the "lol i'm actually a double agent that's betraying Firewall by passing secrets back to the Republic", but isn't it best to try and find a way of playing with, rather than against, your fellow players?

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>>49982490
Not if your fellow players are transhuman traitors

>>49982517
Here's your (You).

But, seriously, there's ways of playing a Jovian that don't involve being traitors to Firewall and loyal only to the state. Just like you can play a character that's from the Planetary Consortium that's not just a plant by OZMA, a character from the LLA that's not just about stabbing non-Indians in the neck or an anarchist that's not just about blowing up hypercorp operated habitats.

Just kidding on the LLA one.

>>49982644
Yeah, that's true, you could play a Jovian working with Firewall to take out x-threats, I just don't like it when you play as a traitor to the Jovian's, it feels cliche.

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>>49982107
I imagine the Republic is pretty stingy with their work visas.

>>49982675
>I just don't like it when you play as a traitor to the Jovian's, it feels cliche.

I don't like it when people play their Jovian characters as one-dimensional ultra-loyalists, as if "Jovian" is the be all and end all of what the character is.

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>>49982694
Yeah, if you want to be an emigrant or ex-pat, you may have to accept that the Republic will ask you tons of questions when you come back, because you'll probably be breaking the restrictions of your visa.

For the others, though, we're talking government-sanctioned work, with the assumption that you are a full citizen, and verified visas, either renewable ones or indefinite ones.

You could also be a criminal on the run, who is fundamentall a Jovian, but nonetheless have ended up on the wrong side of the law in one way or another.

>>49982735
Well obviously being a "purge the heretic" type Jovian is pretty cliche too, but you can have a Jovian that is patriotic and obedient while still having them be a deep and interesting character.

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>>49982770
If you're a Jovian that is legally off-world, that means you're most likely a Citizen, and if you're a citizen, it's safe to say that patriotism and obedience is part of the job description.

But like you said, the character doesn't have to be flat in any way.

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>>49982815
They don't have to be flat, but they do have to be a flat! (ba dum pshh)

In all seriousness though, they certainly do not have to be flat. Even the most obedient soldiers still have personalities, personal beliefs that might conflict with their country, and experiences that shape the way they act and think.

>>49982770
Though I think you then start running into the "but I'm a loyal Jovian, so why would I work with Firewall?" question. If the character's obedience to the state is unquestioning, and you establish that your character's loyalties are primarily to the state, they're unlikely to end up getting recruited by Firewall, and so don't make for a particularly workable player character.

Then you get the double-agent plan to counter that, where the character is going to remain loyal to the Jovians and not to Firewall. Having a player character turn traitor to the organisation the characters are part of raises questions about Firewall's effectiveness ("Why'd they let that guy in? Wasn't he screened?"), and generally fucks around with the cohesiveness of the group (Firewall makes for a good default option for games, because it gives characters a reason to put aside their politics - that might otherwise prevent them from working with others well - for the good of transhumanity whoops this parenthetical comment got a little long).

>>49979467
He just baiting

>>49981799
It's one guy who accuses everyone even slightly sympathetic to the jovians of being a samefag /pol/ack.

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>>49972691
Go back to the forums, faggot.

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>>49982815
There was a phrase on the previous board that summed up what makes the Jovian's tick pretty well.

>Humanity is disappearing. Protect it.
>Programs are stealing the future. Fight it.
>Death is what makes you human. Embrace it.

Now obviously this is a spin off of the main theme, but it does an excellent job of showing the universe from the perspective of a Jovian. The main challenge then is to figure out how to justify your character being in Firewall. Was he sent from the Jovian's or did he escape? Does he think of the transhumans as people or as soulless monsters that he must temporarily work with for the greater good? Does he take mods or is he a flat? If he does take mods, is it morally acceptable, or a necessary evil? Does religion affect his views, or just plain pragmatism? All these questions must be asked of your character, and the answers to them will result in a drastically different character every time.

>>49983536
>Butthurt
>>49983389
Two. And I don't mind the faction, it's the circle jerking.

There is a Jovian character in the game I'm joining, and I think her logic behind being part of firewall makes sense, and I don't believe she would betray the organization; then again, she's pushed the fact in-character that she is Catholic first, Jovian second (She's a jesuit nun), and doesn't seem very racist at all (she's part of a catholic mission trip to luna, her current focus is on tending to the clanking masses). She's still bioconservative, but she just doesn't believe that her own preferences make it any less her job to minister to the faithful and the needy, regardless of what body they are in--as jesus washed the feet of the lepers, she oils the joints of the clanking masses.

>>49984035
I'm intrigued about making versions of this for each faction. What would the Ultimates be? An Argonauts?

>>49984167
That would be a cool concept, but the Catholic church wouldn't consider the clanking masses to have souls, so it's a bit odd. Maybe if she wasn't a nun, so she was just a lay Catholic or a protestant, it might make sense, but it wouldn't be in line with Catholic doctrine to administer to what the Catholic church considers just a machine.

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>>49984292
Ultimates:
>Your body is an extension of you. Perfect it.
>Your mind is the source from where you draw strength. Discipline it.
>The masses want you to fall in line behind them. Reject it.

>>49984295
Well, like I said, she is a Jesuit. They've always had a history of being more liberal than the rest of the Catholic church. Hell, the name Jesuit started as a kind of insult to them, actually; the order's the Society of Jesus, but other orders started calling them Jesuits (basically 'little jesuses') because of how they acted, since they strove to emulate Jesus, not to toe the political line of the church. They're well-educated, pragmatic, and liberal, as an organization, so I don't see why a Jesuit wouldn't minister to those in the clanking masses who have faith still; if naught else she's a trained psychologist and psychiatrist too (Doctorate and everything), and everyone needs mental health issues, and it would be against Jesuit ideals to turn down someone needy just because of what they are.

>>49984295
If it were me, and it's not, I'd go down a slightly darker route - you accept that they are grotesque copies of the dead, going through the motions of living and suffering all the while, and still you tend to them. It's about showing mercy and compassion to the dead, honouring their memories and, perhaps, finding your own salvation knee-deep in the suffering of others.

>>49984337

Eh, not quite punchy enough. Try this:

>Your body is a temple. Improve it.
>Your mind is your strength. Shape it.
>Death thinks it can claim you. Reject it.
>Extinction is approaching. CONQUER IT.

>>49984292
Scum
>Your mind is software. Can software get high?
>Your body is a shell. More room for drugs.
>Death is a disease. Drugs fight diseases!
>Extinction is approaching. Time to party.

>>49982005
Nazi Germany did have to deal with morale though, something the TITANs arent concerned with. As far as we know, they could repeatedly attack for a century, without faltering.

>>49984405
So basically Mother Theresa

>>49984583
Mother Theresa IN SPACE.

>>49984583
Don't cut yourself on that edge

>>49984443
Death is a disease. Bring your own needle.

>>49984583
Top kek

Honestly, as bad as the canon writing of the Jovian Junta is, the Jove lovers in these threads are the same as the authors.
Instead this nazi-like pulp villain, you have these proud paladins, defender of humanity. For me, it just sounds as bad.
Honestly, as bad as the canon writing of the Jovian Junta is, the Jove lovers in these threads behave the same as the authors.
Instead this nazi-like pulp villain, you have these proud paladins, defender of humanity. Give me a break, it just sounds as bad.
Why can't the Jovian Republic be the "villains"? Is that so hard to swallow? No one is stopping to add more depth and subtetly to them in your games or make them the heroes of the setting if you want.
Anyway, all I see in these threads recently is whining about hamfisting, which is true, but only to hear about more headcannon hamfisting. You can fetishize authoritarianism all you want for all I care, but do it in your games, because it is getting tiring to hear the same thing over and over and over again.
Also, I find the Jovians incredibly boring, 'Humanity Fuck Yeah!' is an overused trope and compared to the density of the rest of the setting, it is a bit bland, just my opinion.

>>49984647
>he doesn't know

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>>49984775

>>49984807
What is that even supposed to means?

>>49984807
Did they air this show in the States? I thought it was just a thing in Canada.

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>>49984775
We already have villains of the setting, they're called TITANs and exsurgents and they want to wipe out transhumanity, and the only people putting any real effort into defending against them is the Jovian Republic. That's why people on these boards like them, and your being just as bad as the authors when you try to make them out to be space Nazi's

>>49984832
They did in Poland too

>>49984850
So there can only be one villain? Honestly there is no good guys in EP, imo, only assholes in their own way, the PC and consorts are greedy bastards with no regards for their citizens, Jovians are authoritarians and close minded, the AA are self righteous pricks and on and on.

The Jovians are not even "defending" against them, they merely try to keep their enclosed "paradise" free of them, using iron boots.

If you want people who try to defend transhumanity against exsurgent and TITANs menace, then thats what Firewall is.

It just bothers me that people are trying to sugarcoat the Jovians

>>49984337
let's filter in some themes from the inventor of the ubermench himself.

Your mind is a void. Gaze into it.
Your body is a prison. Escape it.
God is dead. You live.
Man faces extinction. Be more than a man.

"I teach you the overman. Man is something that shall be overcome. What have you done to overcome him?
All beings so far have created something beyond themselves; and do you want to be the ebb of this great flood and even go back to the beasts rather than overcome man? What is the ape to man? A laughingstock or a painful embarrassment. And man shall be just that for the overman: a laughingstock or a painful embarrassment...
Behold, I teach you the overman. The overman is the meaning of the earth.Let your will say: the overman shall be the meaning of the earth! I beseech you, my brothers, remain faithful to the earth, and do not believe those who speak to you of otherworldly hopes! Poison-mixers are they, whether they know it or not. Despisers of life are they, decaying and poisoned themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so let them go.
Once the sin against God was the greatest sin; but God died, and these sinners died with him. To sin against the earth is now the most dreadful thing, and to esteem the entrails of the unknowable higher than the meaning of the earth...
What is the greatest experience you can have? It is the hour of the great contempt. The hour when your happiness, too, arouses your disgust, and even your reason and your virtue.
The hour when you say, 'What matters my happiness? It is poverty and filth and wretched contentment. But my happiness ought to justify existence itself.'
The hour when you say, 'What matters my reason? Does it crave knowledge as the lion his food? It is poverty and filth and wretched contentment.'
The hour when you say, 'What matters my virtue? As yet it has not made me rage. How weary I am of my good and my evil! All that is poverty and filth and wretched contentment.'

>>49984850
TITAN's are the mysterious boogeymen bossmonsters

Jovians serve nicely as a more corporeal, day-to-day threat.

>>49981338

>Never having seen a discussion like that, it sounds like a complete strawman.

It's been a few threads since the last one, but there are definitely who either don't understand/refuse to accept the differences between Splicer and Flat are different than just the Biomods or who insist you can "upgrade" your morph to something else just by rubbing the healing vat on it.

I don't go for it because of the different aptitude maximums and bonuses, as I am pretty sure those are representative of some serious fundamental changes you'd need to do to a morph on a genetic and developmental level which would probably mean such a restructure would take as long as growing a new morph anyway - and require you to sleeve out of it because it'll need to fuck with the neurology.

But like I said, I don't feel like I get a lot of traction out of that argument.

>or removing things like Lemon (afaik).

Not literally, but the game has provisions for buying new traits with RP, and paying more/less to add traits when buying a morph - and I think I've seen dev approval of buying off negative traits if that's not explicitly in the rules. So the baseline for that is there, anyway. Stuff like removing the -5 you get to an aptitude on a Case is something I don't think there's any basis in.

>>49984964
>TITAN's are the mysterious boogeymen bossmonsters
Except for all the cannon fodder mooks they left behind.

>>49981338
>Because that next iteration wouldn't be you
but people don't only help themselves
and self-iterations are entities you would have a particular investment in, ruling out those who only resleeve with a double-bridge to maintain continuity of conciousness

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>>49984921
No one's sugarcoating the Jovian's, we just think that they're justified in their actions. Since most people on this board aren't socialist anarchists, our views on what is tyrannical and unjustified is going to be looser than what the author's is, which is why most people on this board (and in real life) tend to side with the Jovian's.

>>49985010
>I don't go for it because of the different aptitude maximums and bonuses, as I am pretty sure those are representative of some serious fundamental changes you'd need to do to a morph on a genetic and developmental level which would probably mean such a restructure would take as long as growing a new morph anyway - and require you to sleeve out of it because it'll need to fuck with the neurology.
Probably at least a couple of months. Gene therapy supposed to be done through manufactured viruses.

>>49985063
how did you determine what most people think and that only socialist anarchists don't side idealogically with the Jovian's?

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>>49985123
Most people think that taxes and government are needed for society, a professional military is preferred, some freedoms have to be given up for security, and most are religious. Since the Jovian's are the only people who come even remotely close to a faction representing these views, most people tend to side with them

>>49985063
>we
>most people
>most people (in real life)

>>49984964
No. The day to day threat is the x-threat of the week. This can be anything from someone making and/or planning on releasing [color] goo, someone launching nukes at a polity that they don't like, a lab creating bioweapons, large-scale egonapping operations, etc. TITANS are the last boss because they are an advanced, proven x-threat, while the regular villains are unproven and less advanced. There's no need for a polity that is evil. There will always be evil people no matter where you are, and like any set of similar people, these form special interest groups, i.e. gangs and criminal organizations.

>>49985184
the Jovians are the only people who come close represent those views only if you pay zero attention to the entire inner system factions.

>>49985207
I agree with that (that any faction can serve as ally or villain), but it remains the case that Jovians make for a simple, mundane adversity in an easily justifiable way.
This is not an exclusive feature; ultimate or extropian mercernaries, corporate agents or demented scum are comparable easily justifiable mundane threats.

I have a rules question, /epg/ Can a character with the Not A Team Player trait still receive aid another bonuses from their muse or other non-sapient/non-person sources of it, or are they SOL when it comes to boosting their skill values?

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>>49985264
But it's outright stated that the Jovian's have basically no x-threats within their territory, so while they a "mundane" threat, they are the only guys properly taking care of the real threats.

>>49984850
>the only people putting any real effort into defending against them is the Jovian Republic

And Firewall. You know, the group that the game generally assumes you're going to play?

>>49984292
Here's mine:

>My mind is not software. It is an indescribable soul.
>My body is not a shell. It is an inescapable prison.
>Death is not a disease. It is an unbreakable law.
>Extinction is not coming. It is already here.

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>>49985326
But that goes against literally every problem people have with the Jovian's. Firewall is willing to do terrible things to keep the x-threats at bay, yet people's main complaint with the Jovian's is that they act authoritarian to keep the x-threats at bay. Plus there's also the fact that if Firewall didn't exist, transhumanity would be dead 10 times over, whereas the Jovian's have been handling themselves fairly well.

>>49985406
There are also willing to not rule people with an iron fist

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>>49985434
Yeah, and look at what that's gotten them. They are barely holding transhumanity together, whereas the Jovian's have no x-threats to worry about. Not to mention that they consistently lie and kill people to stop the x-threats, whereas the Jovian's are at least mostly honest and at least try to keep their own people alive.

>>49984292

Extropians:

>Your Body is your property. Protect it.
>Your mind is your business. Monetize it.
>Death is a business. Monopolize it.
>Extinction is approaching. Reject it.

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>>49985484
>Extinction is approaching. Reject it.
I'm gon' reject it so hard it'll think it's an elderly woman that's run out of creds for rent.

>>49985474
I will stop responding to you now, have a nice day.

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>>49985626
Well, at least it was a productive conversation. Have a good day as well.

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>>49985326
This is part of the reason I'm hating pretty hard on the writers for saying that the Jovian SCI violently oppose Firewall.

Firewall is basically doing what the SCI would be doing across the entire system if it could. You'd think that the SCI would want to support Firewall to the best of their ability, partly because it'd give them operational security to safeguard overall humanity beyond Jupiter, and partly because they could use it as an entrypoint for their own operations.

But no, it's herp derp junta badguys again. Firewall so obviously isn't an enemy, and the Jovian government is already pretty secure, not just against Firewall as an organization, but also against X-Risks (meaning Firewall doesn't have a major continuing or consistent reason to target the Jovian Republic).

If anyone would be actively opposing and targeting Firewall, it'd be the Planetary Consortium/OZMA or the Titanian Commonwealth/CID/FI, or various autonomist factions (but they're so disparate it's not worth raising as a unified threat).

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>>49985228
But they all have numerous x-threats that they don't properly deal with, so the only reason they are able to survive is because of outside intervention from a secret organization willing to do horrible things to keep them alive. The Jovian's are the only faction that is self sustaining.

I have a rules question, /epg/ Does the cap of 80 on skills at character creation apply pre-morph bonus, or post-morph bonus?