What do you think should be banned/unbanned in Modern in January?

>>49929621
Prized Amalgam is banned.
Cavern of Souls is banned.
Preordain is unbanned.
Stoneforge Mystic is unbanned,

Jace needs to stay banned, desu

>>49929629
No Mox Opal?

>>49929621
Modern should ban:
Ad Nauseam
Modern should unban:
Bloodbraid Elf

Honestly modern can handle Bloodbraid elf. The removal and counter suites can handle the 2-for-1 that Bloodbraid Elf delivers.

>>49929621
Definitely Amalgam, that card needs to die in a fire. Probably Cavern too, that card single-handedly makes countermagic a liability. Maybe Become Immense, Gitaxian Probe, and Mox Opal. Preordain, Jace, SFM, BBE, and Twin are probably the safest cards to unban.

>>49929666
Ban Ad Naus? Why, the deck is barely even tier 2.

>>49929643
Why ban Opal? Affinity still goes off easily without it. Hit the Plating if you want to hurt the deck

Unban Jace
Ban nothing

>>49929621
Ban: Become Immense
Unban: Nothing

>>49929629
>Jace needs to stay banned, desu

People never back up this opinion

Typically they just point to cawblade times and don't give any good insight at all

Ban Blue

>>49929621
Cards to ban:
Amalgam-dredge is very oppressive
Cavern-makes countermagic-reliant control decks unplayable in Modern
Opal: to slow down Affinity

Cards to keep an eye out for:
Ad Nauseum: if the deck ever becomes tier 1
Past in Flames: if Storm ever becomes an issue
Blood Moon/Chalice/Nahiri/Bridge: Floodgates

>>49929666
>The removal and counter suites

What deck in modern runs actual counters?

>>49929666
>ban the only remaining combo deck
y tho

>>49930028
Scapeshift / Titanshift / Titan Breach are oppressive combo decks.

unban second sunrise
maybe hypergenisis
ban become immense

Unban:
>Jace, the Mind Sculptor
>Seething Song
>Splinter Twin

Ban:
>Become Immense

There. I saved the format.

>>49930100
>unban seething song
your out of your mind
and to a lesser extent jace is crazy to
i agree though its time to let splinter twin back in.

>>49930143
Thank you. I believed the Twin ban was unwarranted (this coming from a non twin player). UR & RUG filled the Combo / Control space in modern. What did Twin do to WotC to make them hate it so much. It was not even that oppressive.

>>49930049
Sorry, misspoke, the only remaining semi-fair combo deck.

disregarding balance what would you like to see unbaned just to see what happens.

artifact lands would be a sight to behold

>>49929621
Unban
Stoneforge
Preordain
JTMS
BBE
Print Baleful Strix.

>>49930024
Perhaps its modern countermagic that makes modern countermagic unplayable?

>>49930197
Jitte and Punishing Fire. Affinity can go fuck itself.

>>49930100
>There. I saved the format.
You forgot
>ban Ancient Stirrings
>unban Stoneforge Mystic

>>49930165
I think that they just wanted to sell eldrazi packs.

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Ban nothing.

Unban:
Stoneforge Mystic
Preordain


Reprint:
Vindicate
Counterpell
Innocent Blood

>>49930165
>What did Twin do to WotC to make them hate it so much. It was not even that oppressive.

A lot of people speculated that it was just to sell more Eldrazi packs and have Eldrazi more prominent in the pro tour.

Really none of the other reasons they listed for the bannings made any sense.

>it was too oppressing

Really it was just a tier 1 deck and didn't have an unreasonable win rate. Hell it's day 2 conversion rate was pretty abysmal.

>it was holding back other decks

This is pretty much empirically proven wrong by this point. Turns out stuff Grixis control and Temur Delver were actually just bad decks! Wow!

>>49930377
Don't give them that much credit. They had zero fucking clue what Eldrazi Temple and Eye of Ugin would do to Modern in combination with the new Eldrazi.

Then again, I could be wrong. It's not the first time they've lied about doing nothing (eg. saying they ignore the secondary market).

>>49930439
I believe that they wanted to "shake up the modern meta" so they wouldn't have a Twin winner again

Then again I hope I'm wrong because that would be a fucking awful way to decide bans

unban deathrite shaman

What would a meta with JTMS, Stoneforge, Splinter Twin, Bloodbraid Elf, Preordain, Deathright unbanned and Prized Amalgam, Become Immense banned?

>>49930449
I think it's fine to want to shake up the meta. They should be doing it all the time in my opinion.

I do agree with you that their method to achieve that end was flawed.

Ultimately it doesn't matter as the format has been taken off the Pro Tour. And now I hope they aggressively shake up the metagame just for shits and giggles. I would not be opposed to that at all. I've been absolutely wrecking a fair chunk of the meta with Collective Brutality - they should just ban value-cards like that just because.

>>49930455
Nobody wants the 1-mana Planeswalker unbanned.

>>49930486
>...Bloodbraid Elf ... Deathrite unbanned
>Prized Amalgam, Become Immense banned
Jund vs Eldrazi vs Affinity all day long

Maybe some kind of Twin-Blade deck with Jace, but it would be crap against Eldrazi and full-bore Jund would out-grind it.

I want to see every "good" card in Modern banned. This would mostly be cards that share play with Legacy.

This would mean almost the entirety of Jund is banned. Clique, Snapcaster, bolt and Guide. We'll throw out Path to Exile as well.

Affinity and Infect can stay. It's not like the decks consist of any staples that must be played in other decks.

I would be interested to see what would emerge after the gold standards of cards like Bob, Liliana, Path, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, and Bolt are gone.

>>49930548
>Affinity and Infect can stay.
>I would be interested to see what would emerge after the gold standards of cards like Bob, Liliana, Path, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, and Bolt are gone.
A meta of nothing but degenerate linear decks because all the good interaction has been banned?

>>49930569
Losing Inquisition and Thoughtseize is losing an avenue to damage those decks but it's not like we're short of removal that ruins those decks.

We can probably keep Inquisition around just to have some sort of hand-hate that doesn't suck. Boo-hoo if Bolt and Path are gone; there are more than enough less efficient yet still playable substitutes.

Unban
Splinter Twin
Eye of Ugin
Summer Bloom
Stoneforge Mystic
JTMS

Ban
Glistener Elf
Become Immense
Everything Dredge-related
Eldrazi Temple
Thought-Knot Seer
Eldrazi Mimic

I just want the 2015 meta back with SFM unban to give DNT a chance to be a real deck, it was literally perfect.

>>49930614
>with SFM unban to give DNT a chance to be a real deck
SFM does not play well in Modern DnT.

>>49930632
I can't see why not with Sword of Fire and Ice and Batterskull.

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>>49930640

>>49930692
This card would make way for SFM package immediately after people realized getting a real threat that disrupts and provides CA is better than not-really strip mine every now and then.

>>49930709
Without land destruction you're not playing Death and Taxes, and almost any midrange deck with Stoneforge would be a better choice.

What Modern DnT really needs is Mother of Runes.

>>49929621
Keep Jace banned for being such a shit character. Unban Stoneforge Mystic.

>>49929621
>What do you think should be banned/unbanned in Modern in January?
Everything. Like seriously just go fucking mental, the format is fucking shite right now. Why keep Blazing Shoal banned when you've got +6/+6 for G? Why keep artifact lands that no one wants to use banned? Why keep blue cards banned when blue is trash? Why keep an incredibly slow board controlling burn spell banned? Why keep a 4 mana planeswalker banned?

My god the ban list could be slashed in half without even impacting the format. Then if you want to actually impact it, get rid of the other half too. Then print some good fucking answers.

I want Wizards to do something and give me good reasons justifying that something that will make me feel as if they care.

Thanks to here, I haven't cared about Magic in a very long time, because we're all very negative (for good reason) about how the administration of this game is managed.

Every time they do something right (like Energy, holy shit fucking brilliant) they're just going to fuck it up somehow (like Energy by not making it an evergreen mechanic or revisiting it until we come back to Kaladesh in five fucking years).

>>49930806
I don't know about "slashed in half", but let's go down the list and see how things would shake up, assuming wizards wants to keep modern as a "turn 4 payoff" format.

>ancient den et al
Colored artifact lands broke standard in half, and affinity is already flirting with turn 3 consistently. Absolutely need to stay on.

>Birthing Pod
Not really oppressive, was banned because it made the game "too linear" - you always had the exact answer to every problem. Probably can come off.

>Blazing Shoal
The giant difference between this and become immense is that BI can usually pump turn 3 and sometimes turn 2, shoal was super consistent turn 2. Stay banned.

>bloodbraid elf
Wizards claims they're worried about cascading into ancestral visions. Even that wouldn't make temur delver a viable archetype. Jund does get better but the power level in general is going up. Bring him in.

>chrome mox
One of many pieces banned to slow down combo decks. I'm torn on this one, but all we need is 1-2 cheap or "free" counterspells and it'd be an easy unban.

>Cloudpost
16 post can out-Tron Tron. Probably best to stay banned.

>Dark Depths
The turn 2 kill is magical christmasland. The turn 3 kill is not, and the deck also ran ROFLThopter combo with sword of the meek, which prompted both of those cards to be banned. We got sword back, so I feel safe keeping DD on the sidelines.

>Deathrite Shaman
1-mana planeswalker doesn't give him enough credit. Walkers not named gideon don't get to attack very often. Stays banned

>Dig Through Time
Literal knee jerk reaction ban, easy peel off.

>Dread return
I'm going to say stay banned, but with some reservation. It's one of the few cards keeping Oops all spells out of modern, which is FTK: The Deck - but maybe I'm biased.

>Eye of ugin
Yeah, no, this is recent enough we know why it was hit, and rightly so.

>Glimpse of Nature
Another ban to kill a storm combo. Better to print answers. Don't take it off now, but look to soon.
>cont

>>49930439
>saying they ignore the secondary market
they seem to be getting a bit better about that at least.
they have at least gotten better to the point that i am starting to genuinely believe that maybe there hands really are tied with the reserve list.

starting to believe that is i am still doubtfull

maybe with all the new things hasbro has been doing lately they will decided to come in and work on unfucking the situation

>>49930870
>because we're all very negative (for good reason) about how the administration of this game is managed.

god im still mad about that player that was banned because his sore loser oponent dredged up his insignificant past.

the worst part is his opponent got away with it despite it being explicitly against tournament rules (i cant remember the exact rule though) to dredge up your oponents past like that.

admittedly that probably came down from hasbro though

>>49930400
my nigga

>>49931312
>they have at least gotten better to the point that i am starting to genuinely believe that maybe there hands really are tied with the reserve list.
actually no thinking on it if there hands really were tied they would have released silver bordered versions for casual play by now
its not like it wouldn't sell

Why the shit do people want Prized Amalgam banned?!

>>49931483
Because you can have 12+ power on the board at the end of turn 1?

>>49929621
What a cancerous format.

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>all these bitches crying about cavern
awful lot of oscars in here

>>49931655
>t. Elves player

>>49931312
>they seem to be getting a bit better about that at least.
No they're not. It's been what, 3 years since the Thoughtseize reprint? 3 whole fucking years. People who play this game have died in the meantime. Addressing the issue would be announcing FTV: Modern, not reprinting a single problem card 3 years ago.

>>49931662
>elves is relevant
back to your trashcan, oscar

Burning cinder fury of crimson chaos fire should be unbanned.

>>49931850
sure why the fuck not reprint it with a black border it cannot possibly do any harm

>>49931685
And Thoughtseize is the only relevant reprint in that entire time, you cockmongling shitguzzler?

No, of course not, but you pisswankers would rather bitch and whine than examine the situation critically and engage with actual facts.

Fartswimmer.

>>49931492
.... How though?

>>49931110 (cont.)

>Green Sun's Zenith
Banned for the same reason Pod was, only earlier because it answered more problems quicker. I don't know that it's still that horrifying, and willing to give it a chance.

>Hypergenesis
The deck is stupid and has a decent turn 2 combo rate, but it's just a daze/foil away from being able to come back into the format without concern.

>JTMS
This is the big sticking point. Lots of people think it's not even that good, others are sure it'll break the format. I honestly don't remember that format enough to make a call either way - but given how it can ensure your opponent can never draw an answer, I'm going to lean on keeping it on with the chance of coming off.

>Mental Misstep
Mental Mistake is Mental Mistake. Stay banned in everything.

>Ponder & Preordain
Two more cards banned because storm would break turn 4 rule with either of them. Personally I doubt that. I'm fine with either of them coming back, but probably not both since we're also peeling off DTT and some other blue cards.

>Punishing Fire
I think it has to stay on the list because it makes every creature toughness 2 or less effectively unplayable.

>Rite of Flame
I've been pretty hard on fast mana so far, so this I think stays on the list for consistency's sake.

>Second Sunrise
Eggs showed why this needs to stay banned.

>Seething Song
See Rite of Flame

>Sensei's Divining Top
It's mainly banned for tournament expediency reasons, and people don't know what to do with it. If slow play/stalling was more strictly enforced this PROBABLY could come off.

>Skullclamp
Too many value creatures that you can break this with.

>Splinter Twin
I think twin needs to be unbanned and held as the Gatekeeper of Modern. The format is about the payoff turn being turn 4 - and Twin is the deck that enforces that as the turn you need to either win or turn the corner.

>Stoneforge Mystic
PROBABLY can come off, but probably needs batterskull banned in its place.

Cont (2/3)

>>49932112 cont.
>Summer Bloom
I think it probably doesn't break turn 4 rule often enough to be that much a threat. Bring it back but maybe re-banned.

>Treasure Cruise
See DTT. I think we can remove 3 of the 4 draw spells from the list (ponder, preordain, dig through time, treasure cruise) and it not kill the format. All 4 miiiight be a bit too much.

>Umezawa's Jitte
Super value stick. I think if SFM comes off this has to stay on, but if she's banned this can PROBABLY come off.

>>49929629
>Prized Amalgam is banned.

I will fight you irl bring it bitch

unbanned:

Deathrite Shamman
Green Sun's Zenith

Ban:

Serum Visions
Fetchlands
Black bordered basic lands

Just to spite and trigger autists

unban everything, unban fun.

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>>49929621
Ban : Half the cards of the format, chosen at random.

>>49932112
i was never around for the jace days but i recently played against a deck that was built around never letting your oponent draw anything usefull.
i now very much understand why jace needs to stay banned

>>49929621
>January Banned/Restricted List Announcement:
>Treasure Cruise is banned in Frontier
>Dig Through Time is banned in Frontier
>Ojutai's Commande is banned in Frontier.

>No other format changes.

;^)

>>49932226
>he fell for the lantern lock meme
get fucked bro

>>49930589
>I want less than efficient removal in a format alongside infect that can turn 2
How does it feel having trisomy 21

>>49932399
shock stops infect

>>49932233
>Frontier ever being acknowledged by Wizards of the Coast

;^)

>>49932443
Dispel :^)

>>49932455
Sudden Shock ;^)

>>49932399
>Cast Snapback exiling Serum Visions in response to your kicked Vines

>>49929629
>Ban a fundamental piece of dredge
>cause runing GY hate is just so hard
Grow up balls kid

>>49930548
>>49930589
The shit that you want was already created,it's called frontier, so go and play your midrangevaluefest far away from this format

>>49930417
It turns out that wizards has a really limited view of modern data. Basically, if a deck has been actually winning GP's and Pro Tours for a long period of time that merits a ban. They timed the ban around the Pro Tour, but it was still going to eat one because the deck was consistently in top 8 of almost every tournament for 2 years.

>>49929621
The safe bet is that nothing changes. I do think Stoneforge, Jace, and Bloodbraid are all safe to in an but I also don't expect it to happen.

>>49932452
It was effectively acknowledged at the PT because the nips have already created the meta and demand for meta staples. Wizards admitted they were planning to wait for a couple more years so it wasn't just previous standard + kaladesh but now the secret's out so they have to accept it.

Frontier PT 2017 bro ;^)

>>49932210
>Mike Tyson mysteries: Pigeon's true origin.jpg

>>49932233
frontier is kind of like the dice stuff from the yugioh anime right

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Unban Jace

Make Grixis Control great again

>>49933330
im sad archenemy never caught on
i blame a display of my dark power
seriously what the fuck were they thinking printing this card it helps the opposition far more then the archenemy

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>>49933581
fuck forgot pic

>>49933581
>>49933593
really every scheme card that also benifited your enemy was a bad card but a display of my dark power was the worst of all.
you can recover from your oponents getting double damage for a turn and maybe benifit decently from your own double damage.

but giving every single one of your foes double mana is not going to be worth it the fuck were they thinking

probably the least shit enemy benefiting scheme is the tutor one

>>49929621
Modern is dead, WotC already accepted Frontier as a thing even if they won't support it just now.

>>49932149
I don't think jitte can ever come off. You connect once with it, you will all creature combat for the rest of the game.

Kiki Jiki means splinter twin can stay banned.

>>49933330
as a legacy player i can safely say 'lol ok whatever have fun with collected bant'

>>49930548
>I want a format in which linear aggro is made even better

Go play kitchen table you mongoloid

>>49930012
I think JTMS is the strongest modern card ever printed. Low casting cost and 4 powerful abilities means card advantage out the ass. I think Unbanning him will make every blue deck want him and every non blue deck want to switch to blue, unbalanceing the meta, which is generally bad.

>>49930400
Best suggestion yet.

>>49934466
>I think Unbanning him will make every blue deck want him

There are currently zero tier 1 blue decks, so nothing changes because of this.

>Low casting cost

4 mana in modern is a fucking lot of mana, what format have you been playing?

>and 4 powerful abilities

he has 1 ability, brainstorm, that will be relevant in 99% of games

>I think JTMS is the strongest modern card ever printed

Not even fucking close, stronger cards include:

GSZ
Shitty Jitte
Dark Depths
Mental Misstep
Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time
SFM
Bloodbraid Elf
Deathrite Shaman
Hyper Genesis
Become Immense
Though Knot Seer
Tarmogoyf
Bob
Cloudpost

>>49934466
>every blue deck will want blue

Except the ones who would rather win on turn 4 instead of casting brainstorm.

>>49933581
it caught on as much as planechase did. Its a casual format made for the kitchen table. Your never going to see a archenemy PT

>>49936002
I would never have expected to but god that would be a sight to behold.
I would say planechase caught on a little more though.

>>49931352
Im still fucking mad

>>49934091
I had forgotten about the second mode for jitte. Yeah it probably should stay banned (though we're having SFM come off which makes it much easier)

>>49934287
What do you play bro? ANTfag here.

>>49931352
Do you mean Drew Levin teeing off against Zach Jesse's sexual harassment arrest in college and getting him banned?

I honestly don't know why Levin did it - keep in mind, Jesse has since been admitted to the Virginia Bar Association, and he's got a textbook defamation case against Levin.

>>49936655
Yeah that

>>49932233
TC and Dig: That's...kinda the whole selling point of the format, so no, keep them unbanned.

Ojutai's Command: Why? It's the only real answer the UWx Control decks have to the Siege Rhino decks, it's not a problematic card in any way.

>>49936655
>I honestly don't know why Levin did it
Because crusaders, SJW, and fanatics often don't think reasonably or rationally. The world is black and white to them, the line clear in the sand.

To people like Levin, self-righteousness and the power to wield shame is the only power they have in the world.

That power is free to adopt and there is probably positive feedback from it.

The way our system works is that you take your punishment and society will embrace you again; if Levin dislikes that, he would get angry at the system instead of dragging that guy through the dirt again. But that's not how people like him think, they think that a victory over one person is just and completely ignore that the system is still in place.

That being said, Wizards is completely in the right to ban anyone for any fucking reason they please. It is their party, they can decide on the music. It is their right just as much as it is my right to judge them harshly for their decision.

unbans:

seething song unban would be the most interesting. I don't necessarily want to see storm be a tier1 deck again, but I definitely want to see it affect meta decisions.

blue needs more power, preordain/ponder unban would be stronger than jace, he'd probably be more appealing for midrange type decks or sideboard wincons, but still a good unban.

unbanning a recursive removal like punishing fire would help move the format away from "durr i turn stuff sideways"

bans:

IF the above controlling cards don't see an unban, at least remove mutagenic growth & vines of vastwood from the pool. balanced or not, modern needs to become more intelligent

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>>49930400
I like the idea of counterspell being in modern, considering the card is hardly played in legacy, i don't think it would be overbearing in modern.

Its been 3 years since Blood braid elf was banned for death right shamans sins.

Free my nigga blood braid elf.

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Ban Thragtusk

Unban Mental Misstep

Unban DRS

Holy shit some of the people in this thread couldn't balance a fucking scale to save their life, let alone an MTG format.

Ban Prized Amalgam? In a format where people can play a whole bunch of Turn 0(Leyline) or universal 0-1 Mana grave hate? Fucking start packing more hate in the side.
Cavern of Souls? So you kill the 4 tribal decks that see some reasonable levels of play in the format? For what fucking purpose?
Ad Nauseam? It's a 5 mana card in a format of bad cantrips and no good black rituals and 0 legal Mox type cards. Lotus Bloom takes 3 fucking turns and gets real fucked over by Remand, Counterspells and Artifact hate like Stony Silence. Deck also has a real problem against Glistener Elf.

The only two reasonable options to consider power wise is JTMS and Stoneforge but probably not both at the same time, you only get to choose one. And before you go "But muh Cawblade! Remember the six million Cawblades!" Yeah I remember Cawblade era, I also remember that being an era where people would play Jace Beleren to prevent people from playing JTMS under the old legend type rule. It was also a time where there was 0 cards that directly destroyed or interacted with planeswalkers which is why JTMS could run unchecked. Nowadays you have cards that directly reference planeswalkers in their text(Dreadbore, Heroes Downfall, Red Burn that can target planeswalker these days rather than having to redirect from targetting opponent and you can't redirect if they have a Leyline of Sanctity) and can answer him and entire decks that can kill you before you even get to cast him.

Stoneforge Mystic could be banned because all the decks that would play her will just straight up outright answer her or the Batterskull or Swords of X and Y she tutors for. They're the only relevant targets to look for since Jitte is banned(rightfully so). There's no FoW, Daze or Brainstorm in the format either so she won't ever be good as the Stoneforge decks in Legacy are.

>>49930400
You are a reasonable anon. I like you. Definitely the best suggestion so far.

>>49940484
WTF!?!?! Thragtusk has very little impact except a 1-2 slot in some RG Tron decks. Mental Misstep is a vintage only card. GET OVER IT.

>>49939520
I would love to see counterspell in Modern.

>>49940763
>Cavern of Souls? So you kill the 4 tribal decks that see some reasonable levels of play in the format?
I agree that most suggestions in this thread are silly, but Merfolk and Elves barely need Cavern, it's just an extra toy to shit on Control decks with.

It's Eldrazi that relies heavily on Cavern for mana fixing, and which benefits the most from making it's broken creatures uncounterable.

Here's my recommendation, similar in line to what >>49930400 suggested, with explanations to go along with it.

Bans:

Nothing. Build your deck/sideboards better, scrubs.

Unbans:
Stoneforge Mystic - Make white be a primary color being played in decks, not a secondary/supplementary color.

Preordain - Ancestral Vision is not a strong enough blue card drawing spell. Preordain gives better card selection, and while it may provide enough of an oomph for URx Storm to exist as a tier 1.5 deck, it is worth experimenting with.

JTMS - With the amount of aggressive, linear decks in the format right now, coupled with more hate cards printed after its release (Dreadbore, Anguished Unmaking, Hero's Downfall, etc.), there are enough "checks and balances" in place to allow us to experiment with him being legal.


Print or Reprint for Modern legality:
Counterspell - Pushing hard for blue-based control to be a thing

Diabolic Edict - A way for decks to combat aggressive strategies and deal with hexproof creatures

A 4 CMC Vindicate (probably just increase Vindicate's cost by 1 mana and that's it) - A strong card, but with a relatively high mana cost and slightly restrictive colors, should let the card fit in nicely for sideboard slots.

>>49941201
>A 4 CMC Vindicate (probably just increase Vindicate's cost by 1 mana and that's it) - A strong card, but with a relatively high mana cost and slightly restrictive colors, should let the card fit in nicely for sideboard slots.
>I don't know what utter end and anguished unmaking are

>>49941244
Vindicate's main use is as a 3 CMC land destruction card in Legacy. Anguished Unmaking and Utter End lose the ability to hit lands and gain Instant speed casting (and for Unmaking's case, make you lose 3 life to keep it at Vindicate's actual cost).

If you want literal Vindicate in Modern you're crazy, every WB deck would just use it as a Stone Rain and out-tempo their opponent. You have to make it 4 CMC to keep the ability to kill lands.

>>49936591
>What do you play bro? ANTfag here.
i play death & taxes!

>>49941165

You're correct in that Merfolk does not need Cavern as much, however Elves absolutely does need Cavern though in 2 to 3 colour versions. The extra copies of Cavern can be used to name a relevant creature type they bring in from the side(Kataki, Burrenton, Eidolon of Rhetoric) if they draw into the card and need to hardcast it.

The Eldrazi relying on Cavern for mana fixing is unavoidable, it's the Eldrazi that are the problem and not the Cavern of Souls itself. Now that Unsubstantiate is a card you will see it get played in response to it against decks playing Cavern of Souls.

>>49941244
>>I don't know what utter end and anguished unmaking are
As the guy who originally suggested >>49930400, the reason the format needs real Vindicate over the "fixed" versions is because land-based strategies (ie Tron and Valakut) are too difficult for many fair decks to interact with. Wasteland is too punishing for fetch-shock manabases, but Vindicate is viable in both the maindeck and sidedeck, and helps against Blood Moon, 'walkers, Bridges, etc.

>>49941345
>If you want literal Vindicate in Modern you're crazy, every WB deck would just use it as a Stone Rain and out-tempo their opponent. You have to make it 4 CMC to keep the ability to kill lands.
People build entire decks around Stone Rain effects and it's still not enough sometimes. 3 CMC land destruction is barely playable, 3 CMC creature removal is unplayable. If you jammed 4 Vindicate in Abzan it would just make the deck clunky against Burn/Affinity/Infect/Delver, etc. Its strength comes from its versatility.

>>49941201

They've reprinted Diabolic Edict but updated with To the Slaughter from Shadows over Innistrad block. Except now it can hit make them sacrifice planeswalkers as well as creatures and in some cases it can hit both for a 2 for 1!

>>49941433

Well you got Imprisoned in the Moon from Eldritch Moon where for 2U enchantment aura you can turn an existing land, creature or planeswalker into a single colorless land that can now only tap for colorless mana and loses all other types and abilities. Now I know that's nowhere near as strong as Vindicate but you're able to hit 3 out of 5 permanents that Vindicate could hit.

>>49941573
Permanent-based removal is very weak against Tron and Jund.

Vindicate also sends stuff to the 'yard, where you can hit it with Extirpate, which is what you really want to do against Tron and Valakut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYrslokS2Ac

>>49934466
I think you are mostly wrong

Will most blue decks be interested in him? Obviously but look at the current meta game

Do you really think Jace would unbalance modern right now? Do you really think Jace would be good against stuff like dredge, valakut, infect and affinity?

Modern is so linear and fast right now that I really doubt a 4 mana walker that brainstorms will just fucking obliterate modern

I just realized that if Counterspell was legal in Modern it would probably be a $3 common in spite of having been printed over a dozen times.

>>49942065
Not that guy but the problem with unbanning jace is he shits all over every deck except the current meta. So he does nothing to help modern now, but prevents the meta from ever shifting away from what we have now or you just get shit on by jace.

>>49941458
>3 mana instant
its bad compared to innocent blood and diabolic edict.

Do you guys think about your solutions for Modern in the context of possibly making Jund-variants better beyond all control? I always fear that for every tool we get to attack the meta, it's just another tool that Jund or Abzan gets. Things like Scavenging Ooze and Collective Brutality fit just fine in their lists with no problem.

Eventually we will reach peak-efficiency Jund, meaning that the deck will be unstoppable and even the worst of Wizards' bad excuses to ban cards cannot apply to the deck. How the fuck would a person justify banning a card like Bob, or Inquisition, or Goyf, or Scavenging Ooze, or Collective Brutality. Which would get the axe when each card is amazing in its own right on the level that Preordain or Ponder are. We would have to set a new precedent for banning cards and that day will mark hell forever.

I don't have any ideas myself, but the solution must exist in strengthening Blue. And I think that is very funny because players are whiny bitches and hate blue for irrational reasons (yes, some blue players are insufferable, but people would rather blame the color than the control archetype).

>>49942511
Preordain and Counterspell don't slot into GBx, and actively make the control decks that prey on Midrange better.

These people that say we should unban BBE and DRS are silly, though.

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>>49942511
nah, fuck off blue player. This is a creature heavy meta and blue's interaction is in the form of counterspells. Give them strong cards to deal with creatures and they'll be able to deal with everything and have no weakness. Give black or white more cards to deal with early aggression and the meta will get better. Buffing blue is a one way street to pic related.

>>49942622
You didn't even read my post. Because you're advocating exactly what I'm warning against.

>>49942694
I did, I just disagree. If jund becomes too strong no one is going to be crying about wizard's 'excuses' for banning cards from the deck. There's no new precedent. If the deck is too strong it justifies banning cards from it, no other reason is necessary.
Blue will be stronger when other colors get tools to deal with this meta and the meta shifts. There's no reason we should give blue tools in an area it's specifically meant to be weak in.

>>49933330
Proof please, otherwise you're a filthy MaRo liar.

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>>49942622
>mfw legacy is a lot more balanced then modern

What is your point?

>>49944814
>every single deck forced to run blue to be viable outside of Jund or Eldrazi
Treasure cruise was banned in part because it was forcing decks to either run blue (burn) or become unviable (twin, tron, jund etc.) Every single deck in the treasure cruise meta was blue or was a birthing pod deck. The point is, if every single deck has to run a single color to run a few cards, chances are those cards are warping the format.

What are your thoughts about a counter target counterspell for a small amount of mana in something like green or red?

>>49942511
Unban drs, finish off this dying beast of a format once and for all

>>49945201
>"guttural response"

And it's not played

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>>49945201

>>49945289
>>49945304
I am admittedly new to the game, so this is why I don't know things.

Why is this not played if your deck completely crumples to control? Looks helpful to me.

>>49945355
It is, but control isn't a big enough piece of the meta to be worth spending sideboard cards on

>>49945355
>Why is this not played if your deck completely crumples to control? Looks helpful to me.

It's a super narrow sideboard card to waste a slot on

But more then that counterspells and control are in a shitty spot in modern right now

>>49945355
Decks that really get fucked by counterspells (like living end) often can't play it, so they play stuff like Ricochet Trap instead

>>49945396
At what point can you cast Ricochet Trap but not guttoral response? Are you getting mana tithe'd?

>>49945449
Living End can't play spells CMC 2 or less because it messes up the Cascade combo.

>>49945460
Oh yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Eye of Ugin is unbanned. Everything is unbanned. Make modern fun again. Infect has turn 2 kills. Even the playing field.

>>49945654
>losing to infect T2
maybe if you're not even playing the game

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>>49929629
>Cavern of Souls is banned.

>>49933330
>Frontier PT 2017 bro
Not gonna happen. Wizards stopped using Modern for the PT because it made them do rash changes to the banned list, plus they want the PT to showcase the latest set.

>>49929666
>Modern should ban:
>Ad Nauseam

Are you fucking dense?

>>49929679
>Probably Cavern too, that card single-handedly makes countermagic a liability
hurr durr what is ghost quarter/tec edge hurrrr

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>>49929629
>>49929666
>>49929679

>>49937060
>It is their right just as much as it is my right to judge them harshly for their decision.
True
I remember at the time all those people trying to claim that because wizards was allowed to do what they did we should not criticise them.

God that was cringy.

>>49930024
>Cavern-makes countermagic-reliant control decks unplayable in Modern
It's like land-destruction doesn't exist. Fucking idiots.

>>49930024
>Opal: to slow down Affinity
Doesn't do much to slow down Affinity.

>>49930024
>Ad Nauseum: if the deck ever becomes tier 1
Tier 1 means amount played, not power level

>>49930548
just play standard you poo

>>49930692
you remind me of the babe

>>49933971
lolwut since when

>>49942622
Its a tough one.
You want counterspells themselves to be viable but you need to encourage more interactive control at the same time.

>>49941165
Cavern does dick all to mana-fix Eldrazi decks. It's primarily for counter.

Ban all the cards that are priced above $40 on troll and toad.

>>49946582
>you remind me of the babe
What babe?

>>49946464
Orguss 02?

>>49942622
>Give them strong cards to deal with creatures and they'll be able to deal with everything and have no weakness. Give black or white more cards to deal with early aggression and the meta will get better.
I don't see your point.
Almost every blue-based control deck in Modern plays either black, white, or both.

>>49948105
Yes, and? If a variety of colors have answers then decks are a variety of colors. If only blue has the necessary answers, every deck is blue. See the picture in my original post.

>>49942511
>but the solution must exist in strengthening Blue
An interesting theory, and I say that it will only result in Sultai completing the trinity of BG midrange decks.

>>49929621
Ban cavern
Ban goyf
Ban eldrazi mimic

Unban eye of ugin
Unban twin

Tribal decks should work on their own, not by being uncounterable and getting 4 free mana fixers
If counter isnt in modern goyf shouldnt be in modern
Mimic was what caused instant wins with the eldrazi deck, the fast mana made their fatties easier to play
Twin was a weaker deck than eldrazi

If Ponder and Preordain were unbanned, would this weaken Jund/Abzan value decks indirectly?

>>49948640
yeah, because combo would shit all over everything.

>>49948628
>If counter isnt in modern goyf shouldnt be in modern
this is a pretty meaningless comparison, you could switch goyf with any modern legal card and it makes the same amount of sense.

>>49929629
>Cavern of Souls is banned.
God I wish, but it doesn't see enough-enough play I don't think.

>>49948685
jund is the best and has the best creature in the format which is over 100 dollars. If counterspell is the best counter and it shouldnt be in modern then why should the best creature be in the format?

>>49948793
>jund is the best

>>49948628
Eye of ugin should stay banned. Fuck, eldrazi temple is barely acceptable

>>49949409
No mimic, eldrazi is now a colorless midrange deck option and would be like a cheaper tron

>>49949498
because having a workshop for eldrazi only is such a good idea. did you not pay attention during the pro-tour?

>>49949677
not only that, eye gave tron way too much consistency for the late game. Eye is fucking busted in modern, and it should have been banned when oath was released

>>49929666
"I play Jund"

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>>49949498
>banning a small problematic creature
>unbanning the engine behind the msot oppressive deck modern has seen in ages

>>49949721
Chalice was the oppressive card in eldrazi. If chalice didn't exist and mimic was axed, eldrazi would be much safer.

>>49949780
you're a fucking idiot

>>49949838
Okay, so you disagree. That's good. Now try to expand on that a little.

>>49949984
i already did, you mong. If you don't know why leldrazi was so powerful, then i really can't help you

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>>49949780
>Chalice was the oppresive card
>not the sol lands that let them cast 4 eldrazi mimics at 1st turn and tks t2 to give you thoughtsize+16 damage

>>49950176
Ban the eldrazi mimics

>>49950221
mimics aren't the fucking problem you fucking tard. holy shit. how many people have to tell you this?

>>49950221
If you ban Eldrazi temple and eye of ugin, how many eldrazi mimics can you cast on t1?

if most agree that something in eldazri needs to be banned but theres no consensus on what just ban it all

>>49930548
Nice try deso but you cant fool me

>>49950347
Stop forcing people as memes its worse than tripfags.

>>49947141
The babe with the power

>>49946582
>It's like land-destruction doesn't exist. Fucking idiots.

It doesn't; you gotta reprint wasteland, and then unban cloudpost since trim will be unplayable

>>49946582
Land Destro in modern is basically unplayable though. You need to either -yourself off a GQ, they need to have four lands for you to wasteland them, or you need to build something around the stone rains in the format.

>>49950417
Your videos suck and you're bad at magic

>>49950833
I hate the guy more than you obviously you dumb fag. Nobody would watch his shit if you didnt fucking shill for him on social media. Even if people watch his videos to make fun of him hes getting hits.

>>49930548
As an affinity player: fuck me up deso, let's go fucking ban path and bolt and also the entire midrange archetype

>>49950903
Its ok deso one day you will be as popular a channel as mtg lion.

>>49929621
female magic players

>>49951054
>females are bad
>trannies are better, but bad

Always cracks me up. All it takes is determination and a drive to succeed.

>>49951284
trannies are factually better magic players

>>49950264
If you ban the mimic, none. Then what do you have to complain about?

>>49952105

Shitposters like yourself

>>49942622
>>49945029

the arguably 5 best decks in legacy atm are miracles, storm, dnt, lands and eldrazi (in b4 post is ignored to shitpost about this list)

miracles is the literal definition of blue, and storm is a combodeck that runs cantrips for obvious reasons. very rarely lands splashes blue for tolaria west and intuition; no ponder, brainstorm, fow but is generally considered weaker to rg lands/aggroloam so let's go with that.

that's 1 deck out of 5 that runs FoW and ponder, and 2 out of 5 that run brainstorm in your "70% blue" format

the best blue deck in modern is infect.

>>49956544
Miracles isn't a blue deck in the sense of something like UB Teachings, it's just a prison setup with a 1 mana wrath and few wincons to not dilute the deck's prison setup, disguised as a control deck.

>>49957682
Miracles is more of a Prison deck than a traditional CA-focused Control deck, yes, but it is nonetheless very blue. The deck relies on having an overwhelming and redundant amount of deck manipulation to abuse Counterbalance with.

>>49929621

UNBAN PONDER

>>49957682
>>49957682
>blue decks aren't actually real blue
>nearly 70% of the format are running 3 playsets of blue cards but they're actually non-blue decks
you guys are huffing paint if you think legacy isn't a blue dominated format

>>49930400
>00
you need to be hired by wizards asap.
true fan love right here.

>>49929621

Blue should be banned in all formats. If not blue, Maro.

>>49957682
Miracles is a Wiessman style control deck. The prototypical blue control deck.

>>49956544
Storm is a black deck and RUG lands is a green deck. You did miss Delver, which is a very blue deck.

There is an argument to be made for swapping the bans around between Eldrazi Mimic and Eye of Ugin around.

However considering the poor LD and tax effect choices Modern has banning Eye of Ugin is the right move. I want less "Workshops type mana" for just a single dumb creature type alone and less options for people to drop TKS turn 2 by having 4 Eye of Ugin and 4 Eldrazi Temple in the format. This shit is already degenerate enough in Vintage/Legacy with 12 post/City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb mana available as well.