Can Paladins be pragmatic

Depends on the god they worship.

>LG = honourable
you could play it tthat way, and should if it's a god who encourages such behavior, like >>49885020

But LG only means they seak to uphold the laws of whatever society they live in, while seeking to assist other people, whom they may or may not know.

I mean those are abhorrent to the codes of knightly valor that paladins are inspired by. Even secular knights and warriors should be hesitant to use those methods unless its against demons or aberrations or some shit.

Honor's important. As a GM I wouldn't make you instafall but if you made a habit of it expect some chiding visions from your god or your reputation to get shot to hell-people stop taking you at your word and your name stops meaning anything at court because you stab people in their fucking sleep like a goblin.

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>>49885017
I suppose that depends on what Law your paladin is following (and by extension your own definition of "Lawful"). Goodness is generally accepted as an action predicated by the desire to make other's lives better, so depending on the reason pragmatic action may well be Good. Lawfulness however implies the adherence to some code, external or otherwise; if a pragmatic action breaks some rule it may not qualify, depending.

Does the god your paladin follow espouse honor as a virtue?

Is the person you're about to poison the resident of a country where murder is legal?

Is the illegality of murder being used for primarily Evil (selfish) purpose and therefore unrighteous?

Frankly, it's hard to justify a traditional paladin taking this action because the action itself is an extension of dishonesty, usually a patently Evil action in the eyes of a paladin's god. Perhaps in extenuating circumstances, like the paladin is part of a group of guerrilla freedom fighters attempting to wrest control from a totally evil regime or something, but that leans dangerously close to Chaotic Good territory.

>>49885017
You can do ANYTHING in the name of a god and call it honorable. Look at basically any religious war in history and the "righteous" deeds that came of them such as torturing prisoners and killing civilians.

At the risk of sounding like /pol/, just look at modern day religions engaged in wars and how "honorable" their methods are.

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>>49885017
You made me think of Saint Donovan Graham so here is its legend

>>49885116

A paladin wouldn't be able to do any of those things, though, if we're talking about the D&D edition of the archetype.

A very religious Fighter absolutely could do hypocritical things like that though.

>>49885017
Depends on edition, dude.
As far as 3.5 goes, Paladins who are too constrained by their knightly oaths would probably convert to Gray Guards.
Gray Guards still abide by the tenets of their oaths, but when breaking their code, they can atone for much, much less personal cost. A simple confession at any major temple will do, so long as they were furthering the cause of righteousness or their faith when they broke the code (e.g. beating a heretic, poisoning an evil foe etc.). Ordinary atonement comes with an XP cost; this is waived for Gray Guards in the event of a "fair" break of their oath. This is dictated by the DM, as the Gray Guard must have "good reason" for this easy atonement, and they have to pay the full price if it wasn't justified in some manner.
At the 10th level of this prestige class, they get true freedom from their code, and may perform any act of chaos or evil without losing their powers, so long as they stick to their code's ideals whenever appropriate (i.e. they still can't become a slaving murderer overnight).

>>49885116
That's fine and dandy in the real world where the existence of gods is dubious, but in most systems the gods are definitely real and enforce their rules personally. If some cocksucker in a sallet starts stabbing babies in the name of Pelor he's asking for a swift and mighty smiting.

>>49885017
The thing about these alignment threads that people don't get is that if you got 20 LG paladins in a room who were asked "what is good?" or "orc baby what do?" you're going to get 40 different answers. It's why ethics and philosophers exist. There will always variance among people with similar ideologies. Why do you think their hundreds of variations of Christianity out there. You hand someone a religious text and some people are going to take one book from it and make it the core of their church, while the preacher next door makes it a footnote. Then you throw different gods, denominations, upbringing and experience into the fold. That Paladin probably won't be killing the baby Orc if an Orc was his best friend but his buddy whose dad was killed by one will.

>>49885254
Gotta smite all the evil, son.

>>49885017
Nah, Paladins represent an ideal, doing the Right Thing even when it's not the easiest way. It's all about setting the bat highet, going beyond the duty, leading by example dreaming the impossible dream Being pragmatic might be more effective, but it by definition means to compromise which runs against this ethos.

Guys, what happened to Good first, Lawful second? Sometimes, the use of poison, or trickery (through Diplomacy, of course) is for the greater good.

>>49885028
>they seak to uphold the laws of whatever society they live in
They deal to uphold morally just and good laws. Paladins do not uphold evil laws, and Paladins would not be able to serve and protect an evil king without falling.

>>49886059
that's not lawful good, genius

>>49886066
Yes it is.
Lawful Good supports those with just authority, they do not need to submit before unjust authority.

>>49886059
>>49886066
>>49886079

Daily reminder that alignments are shit for this very reason, for they try to sum up a character and every retard thinks they should follow the exact alignment description in every single situation.

A character is made up from multiple qualities and convictions each differing in alignment.

But to continue your shitty discussion: an LG paladin wouldn't simply submit to unjust authorities, but wouldn't start some kind of rebellion. They'd try to change the system lawfully and orderly.

>>49886079
>Lawful good (LG) creatures can be counted on to do
the right thing as expected by society. Gold dragons,
paladins, and most dwarves are lawful good.

depends on the setting/system, though

Arguably Batman could be considered Lawful Good and Gary Gygax actually used him as an example.

It largely depends on your point of view and interpretation. Some people vehemently deny Batman as Lawful Good, but chaotic good or even lawful evil.

While still being a vigilante, his ethics and morals prevented him actually casting final judgement and still believed in the spirit of Law even if he knew the police were corrupt.

Alignment is a more complex issue that can have multiple interpretations.

I generally put it down to this:

Lawful people don't break laws unless it interferes with their moral compas. Paladins will ignore evil laws, follow neutral laws people dont like but have reasons to exist (i.e. Taxes) and champion good laws like "do not murder".

Good characters don't take lives unless in self defense or in retribution for evil.

Neutral characters don't kill for pleasure or business, but don't hold back in self defense and can be willing to kill in retribution for. Reasonable slight (my name is initial Montoya, you killed my father...)

Evil characters kill for business or pleasure. Lawful evil characters kill more likely for reasons like assasination. Neutral evil kill out of convenience. Chaotic evil characters kill for pleasure or thrill.

>>49885017
No, but if the rogue does it the Palidan can pretend he was looking elsewhere, or too busy chatting up the elf to notice.

>>49885017
Most incarnations of paladins restrict them from poison and cloak and dagger assasinations. But it is generally accepted that desperate circumstances might cause them to otherwise adopt such tactics or ally with less honorable people.

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A paladin, as paladin, is a public figure, not a private individual. As a champion of goodness, known to be good to all (as evidence by their powers), others look to them as examples of behavior. As living saints. priests will recount tales of them to their congregation; parents will tell their stories to their children, for instruction. In every town they pass through, every village they save, the peasants who wonder the best things to do in their own lives will ask themselves: would the paladin do this?

Treacherous and deceptive methods do poison to the world with fear. In a world where such methods are used, men and women will spend ever more of their time and coin in securing themselves against hidden enemies, wasting resources that could have been spent doing good works. Fear is also a sickening thing to live under, sharpening suffering and hollowing happiness. There is a reason why the righteous insist on presumption of innocence, agreeing that seeing the innocent free is more important than punishing the guilty: for only criminals must live in terror, and never the righteous. A paladin, with the example of their life, should ward against the world decaying to such a state of fear. A paladin must be an inspiration.

Besides this, there is a great deal of pragmatic use in simply being trustworthy. The times when one needs one's enemies to trust them are rare, but when they come the need will be dire. Deception's use lasts only so long as your enemies do not secure themselves against it, and as a paladin's enemies are evil, they think to secure themselves so immediately, for deceptive methods are what they first think of being used against them.

>>49886099
They absolutely can and should start a rebellion, but one with actual armies and install a legit figurehead. None of that blowing up bridges and overthrow the tyrant and leaving a power vaccune in place bullshit.

>>49886099
>every retard thinks they should follow the exact alignment description in every single situation.
The world is not judged by it's retards, nor should you judge the idea of "alignments" by those who actively do it wrong or misunderstand it.
>They'd try to change the system lawfully and orderly
The option to start a rebellion is still there, however, especially if it is clear that those in power are using their rule for self serving or evil goals.
>>49886147
Pre Dark Knight Batman would be reasonably lawful good, he was willing to work with honest authority, but Gotham is/was rife with corruption.

>>49885388
Poison and trickery are okay so long as they aren't used as conveniences instead of necessity.

Or entrapment.

>>49885017
Vengeance paladin.

>>49886066
Following the law blindly, regardless of wether it's just or not is neutral, not good. A good character is well within his right to oppose unjust laws, and a paladin is likely to be considered a reliable judge of wether a law is just or not.

>>49885388
The thing is that in a lot of pre-writing socieities, honor was important because it was basically your ID card.

"Oh that's Sir Guyus of Placeia. Can he be trusted?"

"Ah ha ha no fucking way sire he burned those peasents to death at the battle of Otherplaceshire."

"Seems legit Whitfrey."

"They were asleep and unarmed under a flag of truce sire."

"...right he sits next to YOU at dinner, Whitfrey."

"Very good sire."

Like there is a reason fighting fairly is a big part of being a proper knight even if it isn't quite our modern definition of "fair".

>>49885017
Quick, someone post that Powderkeg of Justice greentext.

>>49885254
This too, I just wanted to point out that heavily armored warriors, paladin or no, would have certain societal expectations in the default society most D&D games take their inspiration from and would suffer social penalties if they DON'T act like that.

Not every GM wants to play that kinda game, natch, but its something to consider when playing a fighter or other warrior type; even a dickass mercenary captain would care about his reputation because people will not hire you if they think you will immediately go to their enemy and say "Hey pay me double and I'll kill the guy who hired me.".

Poison has its place but there's a reason its usually the realm of honorless assholes and dinner parties-and a wise honorable warrior always knows a few dickass thieves to handle situations that call for that sort of expertise.

>>49885017

Paladins seek to uphold the laws of their society. So long as what they are doing isn't illegal there should be no reason they cannot do it, unless it conflicts with their own personal morality.

>but rather things such as poisoning (whether coating the sword or poisoning the cup)

Coating a sword with poison may or may not be illegal depending on the civilization in question, but poisoning someone's drink is murder nearly everywhere.

>sneaking and killing people in their sleep

Killing people in their sleep is generally considered murder and would be unlawful.

>and just deception in general.

There isn't anything illegal about deception in general, but if they are using deception to do illegal things they would be breaking their oath.

>>49889481
Well I'm certainly not referring to murder, but to killing the "bad guy", whoever that is. Like if there's a necromancer causing trouble and you're sent to kill them, but then you just find them sleeping on the ground, do you just kill them right then and there, or you take the honorable "samurai" type approach, and let them wake up and put on their armor and weapons before fighting them. Obviously a Paladin must act justly and honorably to his allies and the innocent, but must he also act that way towards the evil people?

>>49889663

Unless they have been tried and convicted of crimes and sentenced to death, the Paladin has absolutely no right to inflict his own brand of justice. Being sent to kill a necromancer doesn't make you a paladin, it makes you an assassin.

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>>49889079

The Powderkeg of Justice story paints a very cynical and thoroughly unfun picture of the Paladin.

I prefer it when the Paladin knows he's walking a fine line but isn't just waiting for the moment where he'll wind up over the edge. I feel that's something the Paladin's friends would say to him, not a belief he himself would hold.

I find it more interesting when the Paladin doesn't think he can fall because he actively tries to prevent it. Not when he sees it as some inevitability.

>>49885017
While I usually prefer more liberal codes of conduct for Paladins I think poisoining people or murdering them in their sleep is a thoroughly un-Paladin thing to do.

Whenever I play Paladins, I usually just use good ol' Cap as my moral compass. If he wouldn't approve of your actions, then you're probably not Paladining right.

>>49885017
No one brings up Grey Guard? Criminal.

>>49885017
> Paladin of Vengeance

Yeah, Rorschachdins can do more or less whatever

>>49885017
The main thing that people seem to misunderstand is that a paladin will do the "right" thing even if it means losing his powers and offending his god. He is a protector of man.

If he has to poison the invincible bbeg to save the world at the cost of his powers a true paladin would do so.

>>49890550
>The main thing that people seem to misunderstand is that a paladin will do the "right" thing even if it means losing his powers and offending his god.

That's absurd. I he is doing the "right" thing he is at zero risk of offending his God, because what his god wills IS the "right" thing.