Warmachine/Hordes General

Between the Archangel and the Storm Raptor, which would prevail in a direct confrontation on the table?

>>49864396
Whoever rolls first wins

Any fun to be had running those merc mariner models? IMO the freebooter is one of PP's coolest looking jacks, but is it worth trying to build a merc force just to play them?

>>49864396
Probably Archangels. IIRC it's got a better ranged output, and definitely has a better melee output. Though, this question kinda requires either option to his first. Neither is gonna do well being the receiver.

>>49864396

Kaiju fight! Kaiju fight!

So... whoever has top billing in the match title?

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>>49864335
Still no generous anon to share mark of Caine?

>>49866151

Eh, give them a chance to make money on it.

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So I got some Wrath of Kings stuff for cheap, including 16 of these guys and a model I could probably use as a War Hog.

Assuming I get the go ahead to use them as proxies for pick up games, what actual Farrow models would it take to get an ok 50 point list going? I was thinking Carver would be a decent starting Warlock, though I'm open to suggestions since I don't know much about pigs.

>>49866774
Farrow theme list is out next month

JUSTICE FOR CRYX

>>49864622
From what I've seen/heard the Buccaneer is a pretty good light given its auto-knockdown gun and cheapness (especially with Magnus2 Kingmakers to trigger Feign Death every turn). Saw a Freebooter throw an Inflictor into Goreshade1, knock him down and displace him forward, and then beat him to death in the deciding game of the finals of a team tourney I went to last weekend. Granted the likelihood of that happening successfully was very low, but a Freebooter was the model that won a team a tournament. Not sure how viable it is with what casters though.

>>49864622
Buccaneer Brigade bro

>>49867568
Cryx got what it deserves

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>>49867568
CRYX BTFO

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>>49867568
What happened to Cryx was a long time coming. If you think otherwise, you're either blind or an unrepentant Banespammer.

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>>49867568
soon brother soon... we have time on our side.

We shall outwait these pitiful mortals and we will have our day again when they announce the erratas and nerf the gunlines. we need only bide our time and rediscover lost non-banespam related tech until then...

What are some of your favorite models, as far as sculpts and flavor go?

I'm a sucker for jacks with BFGs, stuff like Destroyers, Decimators, Cyclones, and Defenders.

>>49867790
>>49867735
I pray Cygnar gets what it deserves ten fold.

>>49867960
I really like the Gobber Tinker. Dude's got so much character.

>>49867960
Gunbunnies and the Driller. Also Mohsar.

What's the best melee troop Skorne list with Minion Piggies? I am not going to win any Steamrollers - I just want a drop that is as many Slaughterhousers and Keltarii and Swordsmen and Nihilators with the appropriate solos.

I want to fuck someone up for one round.

>>49868107
so hayley2 and lances catch a dose to bring them inline with the rest of the faction?

>>49868690
I don't envy PP having to rein in this gunline nonsense.

HaleyX can eat a fat dick and munch on an asshole.

>>49868473
With pigs, rasheth. Without pigs, zaal1.

>>49868866
Haley1's not so bad. Now that speed debuffs don't prevent charging, she's pretty weak.

>>49864335
Use the proper paste next time...
http://textuploader <dot> com / da46m

>>49868690
>Storm Lances
Remove Electro Leap on their gun. They're called storm fucking LANCES, not storm gunners.

>>49866774
That is a really nice model. Why nobody plays this game?

>>49868107
Won't happen. Cygnar has never been terrible since they are PP's favored faction and so much of the fluff centers around or involves them. Even in Mk1 when they couldn't handle Stealth. at least they weren't Skorne who had no means of charging over rough terrain.

>>49870657
The wrath of kings models were above-average quality across the board, and the game isn't bad at all. Biggest sticking point with a lot of people is that some are just outright weird. I mean, it's not Kingdom Death creepy ass weird, more of a "this feels like it's based on some foreign cartoon series I've never heard of" weird.

The pigs+robots faction (above) and the undersea creature faction are by far the coolest. There's also a faction of horror movie monsters, a kung fu anime faction, and a faction of people all wearing masks and not much else. Like I said, weird.

But to answer your question, no, it didn't really catch on. It's a similar ruleset to many of the modern skirmishers (WMH, WWX, Guild Ball, et al). There are a few new/cool ideas there I hadn't seen before. All the models are divided into deployment "classes", that determine when/how they can deploy (and scenarios can play around with those rules).

And the attack system is really unusual but actually pretty elegant in play - based on a D8 or a D10 (can't recall atm) that's rolled against a defender's "chart", which lines up different types of defense (dodge, block, tough, etc) with different roll results. And then attacks will have special rules that allow them to convert certain types of defenses into damaging hits (e.g. poison = tough results count as a hit with this attack, etc)

>>49870492
I, as a Cygnar player, would be fine with this, with or without the point of defense.

>>49870492
Or reduce it to 2". On everything. Then you can actually counterplay it.

>>49871960
Why are you trying to nerf the Storm Raptor?

>>49872063
Oh come on. If electro leap was 100", the Raptor would still be crap.

I say, reduce ELeap and Trick Shot to 2" and you solve a lot of the broken crap in Cygnar. Then buff the Raptor with the equivalent of 1 Tour de France of doping agent.

>>49872090
Just messing with you. Reducing the range of bouncing abilities like eleap and trick shot might do the trick. It might overdo it as well. It would be something worth testing out, though.

Do you feel that the firefly, tempest blazers, stormclad, stormwall, and the chain lightning spell (and every caster with it) would be just fine with this change, or would you buff those models somehow to compensate?

As part of that, like the thunderbird, I know that the stormguard are crap regardless of the change, so no need to for me to pose the question to those models.

>>49872759
I'd keep Chain Lightning and Lightning Generator at 4". They usually require a greater investment or are on models that rely on the leaps a lot. ELeap and Trick Shot are usually more abundant and on things that have many other advantages that make them shine, at least in Cygnar.

Also I don't think Stormguard are that bad. The just suffer from the shooting meta and being eclipsed by Storm lances. They need a bit of help but I'm not too sure what would be the right thing.

I think its shit that Eleaps dont count as an attack.

>>49873137
Nah, that's the appeal.

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Are the Cygnaran Storm Infantry still the King's bodyguard now that Leto, their founder, has stepped down as King?

And how is Leto's relationship with the new king anyway?

> Meanwhile, on the PP forums:

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?263332-designspace-Easy-Fix-Suggestion

>invalidate 40%+ of people's models
good idea, champ

>>49873762
I usually dislike people crying about the official forums on /tg/, but holy shit that is some dumb crap.

>>49867568

Now are they really doing that bad faction wise?

I thought you could still make a solid army from Thralls, Banes, War Witches and what not?

>>49873738

I'm guessing the prestige of the unit remains, particularly considering that they're loyal to at least the monarch, unlike the somewhat fractious knightly orders.
>relationship
I'm pretty certain now occupies some sort of advisor position. Very face saving. True heir resumes seat after insane father killed, loyal King Leto steps down, but continues to serve as experienced advisor to young monarch, possibly actually still running things.

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>>49873762
What a fucking idiot.

Can you use any of the metal from Cryxian jacks for salvage reasons?

Is it even safe to try?

>>49873762
Hahaha oh wow. That's bad.

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>>49873762
I get his idea, and he has good intentions, but he's using a wrecking ball to solve the problem of one unit (or even spammed units in general). Now that Cryx is actually dead, such ham-fisted approaches aren't necessary.

Honestly, Storm Lances just need a tweak to put them back to being good/average cavalry. However, most other Electro Leap units aren't that great, so I'd personally think that some other aspect of the Lances could use a change. What that could be, I don't know, I've never actually used Storm Lances. The stats on paper only tell me so much about how they really perform.

If Nihilators lost Berserk and gained electro leap they'd be so much better.

>>49874762

Aren't Nihilators less effective in general given Infantry aren't as common on the table anymore?

>>49874801
Yup. They can't get to shooting units before being wiped off the table, and can't damage heavies. Meanwhile those Invictors cost just 1 point more, and can kill a titan under Ossyan's feat.

>>49874366
Storm Lances aren't super powerful, I feel. They are just super flexible. Pow 15 charges are about what the other cav does. (Vengers are 14 and blessed, Uhlans are 16, Bane Riders are 15, Destors are 14, Long Riders are 14, Ferox are 14, Steelheads are 13 w/ flank, that's all the heavy cav?) They are 13/17 defensively (12/17 battle driven, 12/17 wall of steel steady, 12/18, 13/17, 12/17, 13/17 steady, 13/17, same order as above).
So, as far as being a cav model, they are fairly average. Their unique thing is their gun and e-leap. Other cav units get other unique stuff, but most all of the other cav stuff only helps them do cav stuff. Charge in, hit hard, try to survive. Storm Lances unique stuff just makes them also really superb at killing infantry, solos, and support. They're the only ones that get that unique thing, and so much of it with two potential e-leaps.
And every cav unit gets some benefit from the rest of their army. And most all of those benefits help them do cav stuff. Charge in, hit hard, try to survive. Storm Lances also get all those buffs to their unique thing. Their ability to kill infantry, solos, and support is increased when you increase their ability to charge in and kill stuff. Give them dark shroud or ionization and it'll probably affect the e-leap targets. Give them Arcane Shield to survive the hard targets the charge and their ARM 20 will shrug off most normal infantry, solos, and support attacks.
I think their unique thing, the gun and the e-leaps, needs toned down. Having guns on all the things is the flavor of Cygnar, I feel. And I don't want to remove that part of them because of that. So, I look at the e-leaps as what needs toned down. We don't need them to be so good are killing infantry, solos, and support. I think we can take away one of their e-leaps and they'll be fine. (continued)

>>49873163
It fucks over vengence, aka a shooting defense

>>49874366
>>49875233
So, between the gun and the lance, would you rather the unit be able to advance 8", shoot 8", e-leap 4", then reposition 3", which is a pretty potent infantry clear move or would you rather that the unit charge 11", engage 2", and e-leap 2", then reposition 3", which is also potent at clearing infantry, but risks the unit much more?

Sure, they're still good. But they're more in line with the higher armor Vengers or Uhlans, or the ghostly Bane Riders, or whatever else if they lose the gun's e-leap.

P.S. I hear that the Ferox don't get the charge if they jump, but as long as they keep their charge target in their melee range after the jump, what part of the rules stops their attack from being a charge attack?

>>49873870
Unit diversity is way down, very difficult to play into shooting, magic much less efficient, units not very cheap, jacks fagile except inflictor, less caster viability, loss of S ranked casters except denny1.

>>49875413

So far everything I've seen of the Cryx update suggests they nerfed all the Undead stuff, some of the Casters, buffed some of the Pirate stuff and left the Warjacks largely unchanged.

That being said, is the Kraken still viable on the table?

>>49875587
Yes -- retained 4 inch reach, and iirc went up to P+S 19, which coupled with Cryx debuffs (which largely made it through intact), makes it a considerable threat.

Unicorn cannon remains good, also (iirc went up to AOE 5 and kept Kill Shot)

>>49875587
>buffed some of the Pirate stuff
Satyxis are pretty close to what they used to be, which makes them stand out against everything else.

>>49875587
>>49875659
Sadly the undead nerfs means the Sepulcher is pretty garbage.

>>49875709
Kraken anon here again -- Yes, unfortunately the Sepulcher got considerably worse. I really liked it in Mk2 and it's pretty much lost out to the Kraken completely in Mk3.

There's potential for really high ranged damage output if you roll a high ROF on the two Burst Fire (spiker?) guns, but it's not consistent enough to warrant taking it over the Kraken now that the recursion ability is almost completely useless.

>>49875587
Skarre loves the Kraken.

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>>49873762
>Make everything FA:1
>can only take one of each beast or jack, which are common beasts or mass-produced war machines
>can only take one of each unit, of which your faction has hundreds/thousands of troops of each
And the forums wonder why PP doesn't (openly) listen to their suggestions.

>>49875587
Take it with Skaare2 and solo the entire enemy army.

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>>49874177

>can you use it
probably it is metal so it can be salvaged melted down for scrap or hell if your crazy/desperate enough you might be able to jury rig a minor part like a servo or something

>Is it even safe to try?

probably not, there's the issue of necrotite contamination which isn't exactly healthy of living beings addationally there's always the possibility of spooky hoddo that can kill you just by looking at it or morrow forbid if you use the parts of some broken down helljack and suddenly you've brought back Deathjack from the grave or created some new unholy abomination, or your newly repaired cyclones cortex get corrupted and decides it would be a great idea to hose your own troops down with hot lead.

probably best to leave the cryx jacks to the enginners to try to figure them out.

>>49875659
>iirc went up to P+S 19
Yeah Meat-fueled up to P+S 22 before outside effects is pretty juicy.

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How much better would Ferox be if they gave them Armor Piercing like Tyrant Rhadeim?

>>49875378
Assuming they just have the standard Jump rule, you are only allowed to jump after a full advance, aka using your movement action to simply move your SPD in inches.

>>49875587
None of the pirate stuff was buffed. The only thing from mkii that remained relativly untouched are the blood witches (side grade w/ stealth) and the bane knights. All other units are worse.

Our jacks are still bad. Debuffs aside, its not like our crappy armor is getting us in the game and most of our casters still dont have the resources to spam them effectivly.

I'm not sure if the kraken is worth it in many cases. It just doesnt have the output, and its expensive. I would rather just take DJ, Barathrum, Erebus or Inflictors.

I have the following High Reclaimer list and I'm not sure what to pair with it. The plan of the list is to use the Judicator and infantry to hold zones and delete heavies and infantry as needed. Because I feel like this is a list that does Assassination and Scenarios well, but struggles with attrition, pathfinder, and control effects, I'd like a caster who could cover these. Any suggestions?

Fuel Cache - Steamroller Objective

The High Reclaimer - WJ: +32
- Judicator - PC: 36 (Battlegroup Points Used: 32)

Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1
Wrack - PC: 1
Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1

Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
Idrian Skirmishers - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
- Idrian Skirmisher Chieftain & Guide - Chieftain & Guide: 5
Knights Exemplar - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
- Knights Exemplar Officer - PC: 5
Flame Bringers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 17
Flameguard Cleansers - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
- Flameguard Cleanser Officer - PC: 4


---

GENERATED : 10/20/2016 12:18:19
BUILD ID : 2024.16-08-27

>>49876263
Absurdly better

>>49876263

"Nothing else would get played" better.

Karax tripped into that status by giving the opponent the least bang for his buck (or buck for his bang, as it were). Ferox are already dangerously close to crowding Skorne warrior models off the table; they already have done so with medium based infantry. Much else and it'll just be Bloodrunners and Master Tormenters left.

>>49876366
Eh. I don't think Cryx jacks are as bad as you make them out to be.

>>49875233
Don't forget they're the only of those heavy cavalry units to *not* have the Lance rule, which means they have native 2" reach when not charging, which is a pretty big deal.

And they get E-leap on both their gun and lance and have assault, letting them potentially hit 4 targets on a charge.

With Laddermore, they're RAT 7, and threaten 19" with their guns. And with RAT 7 POW 14 + e-leap 10, and if you treat them as a pure shooting unit... they're... actually not bad. 10x 19" range, RAT 7 POW 12 (averaging 14 and 10) isn't bad offensive output for a shooting unit. And then, not even counting their actual charges, they run 16", reposition 3", and have ARM 17 and boxes.

Also with Laddermore, they outdamage all of the other heavy cav on a charge (unless Vengers go into an Arcane Shielded target) due to getting 14+2d6 and 15+3d6 on the charge target unless it has ARM over 20.

They're also in a faction that has several unit buffs repeated among multiple casters, and they benefit from all of them.

Arcane Shield? Of course.
Blur? DEF 13 base is enough to make it good.
Snipe? With it they threaten 23" with their guns, which is insane.

Honestly, I'd say the simplest fix to make them merely good is to remove Assault. They're too good at too many things, and taking out assault gives them a significant loss of shooting range, makes it so they're no longer the hardest-hitting cavalry (outside of Vengers vs. buffed targets), and makes their infantry clear on charge reasonable.

I have two units and I only feel a little bad about it.

>>49877979
Reminder that Molik Karn alone cannot kill a Slayer without spikes, and with Beast Handler support still only has a 70% chance despite being a 20 point beatstick.

>>49878229
>taking out assault gives them a significant loss of shooting range
Yes and no. Sure they lose 3", but considering they have Reposition 3, they still have dumb range. You also have to remember that if they connect, your front row of infantry is going to evaporate, pushing the Storm Lances yet further away from retaliation.

They're just a perfect storm of everything that beats infantry; range, good RAT, splash damage, and safety. They're 20 points but you shouldn't really lose any, and if you do it's likely to a huge gun like a Titan Cannoneer, and wasting a 17 point Cannoneer's turn trying to kill A FUCKING 13/17 BEFORE BUFFS WHAT THE FUCK is awful when it's only 4 points. And the remaining 4 guys can still fucking mulch your infantry anyway.

>>49878564

Would giving Molik Karn Critical Amputation improve him to any degree?

>>49878635
>Would giving a beatstick more damage improve him to any degree?
Yes. Frankly he should dump the FUCKING ATROCIOUSLY WEAK FUTURE SIGHT for something like that.

FOR ME TO MISS I NEED TO COMPLETELY FLUB A ROLL

I MAY AS WELL JUST BUY ANOTHER FUCKING ATTACK IF I'VE FLUBBED A ROLL

NEED 5 AND ROLLED SNAKES? YOU'RE ACTUALLY MORE LIKELY TO HIT IF YOU JUST BUY ANOTHER ATTACK

THANKS FOR WASTING THE SPACE ON MY MODEL CARDS WITH USELESS ABILITIES PP

>>49873738

Members of the Stormguard still serve Julius as a royal escort. The relationship with stryker and Julius is strained to say it politely. Stryker doesn't contribute much to meetings, and has bordered on treasonous behaviour whenever magnus gets involved. Pretty much stryker can't let go of his grudge against Magnus and it's severely affecting his ability to advise his king or lead the military effectively. He's suffering all of the downsides of being Leto's favourite and being promoted too frequently and too soon.

>>49878695

To be fair, didn't Magnus deliberately try and kill him more than once, his first attempt being a literal back-stab after Stryker came to his rescue?

Not to say that excuses Stryker's behavior, but I can't say many men likely wouldn't hold a grudge over that.

Also, if Magnus once again serves Cygnar, what about Saxon Orrick or Orin Midwinter?

>>49878862
Orrick worked for Vinter, straight up. Who knows what he's up to.

Orin saved Julius from another Inquisitor, and has proven himself loyal to him. He's likely in Cyngar's good graces again.

It helps that he was one of the Inquisitors that was trying to do their legitimate job.

>>49878688
You're significantly underrating the effect. Take situations where your going after a high def target that you normally need to boost to have even a reasonable chance (i.e. warcaster/warlock). Normally you're just having to burn that extra focus/fury every time since a raw 2d6 is unfavorable. But with FS you can wait to see if the initial roll is close. Only need 1-2 more on the roll? Boost. Otherwise don't waste it and buy another attack to try again. The same is true on armor, roll poorly? save your fury for another attack. Breach their armor on 2d6? Spike that shit with a boost.

Where it's bad is where you have to pay for it like the Savage. But when it's free (Karn but especially Ossy/Skarre for example) it's quite good.

>>49878688

To be honest I'm wondering why Molik Karn already doesn't have something like that.

Seeing as how Cyclopes have abilities of foresight and he is a swordsmen (as much as a Warbeast can be) over battering rams like Tiberion or a Gladiator, it seems likely he would punish a foe by removing an arm or inflicting maximum damage in a single blow if he already knows what they're likely to do.

>>49878929

>Orrick worked for Vinter, straight up. Who knows what he's up to.

Is Pendrake still after him?

Also, he may still be working for the Skorne.

>>49879012
The Savage has his own Future Sight built in. Frankly it's insulting that beasts who can see into the future have such low attack rolls. The fucking Razor Wurm is better at hitting its target than a Brute, AND A RAZOR WURM CAN BARELY FUCKING SEE BECAUSE IT LIVES UNDERGROUND
>Razor Wurm = 6
>Savage = 6
>Brute = 5
>Shaman = 5
>Raider = 5

>The same is true on armor, roll poorly? save your fury for another attack. Breach their armor on 2d6? Spike that shit with a boost.
Molik is basically PS18.5 because of weapon master and enrage. This means against a Menoth warjack at 19ARM, he'll deal 6.5 damage on an average swing. Why would you spend a fury to deal another 3.5 damage, when you could spend it on another attack and get another 6.5 damage? Boosting damage has NEVER been a good idea on melee models.

If you think you might want a Future Sight effect in a game, bring a Willbreaker to give something Puppet Master. It's like buying another attack but costs no fury.

>>49879084
Last we saw him, he was helping the rebel army set up for Vinter's return. He was in Blood of Kings, but they never specifically discussed what happened to him.

He could have been a part of the pardon, he could have disappeared, who knows.

>>49879191
>Privateer Press in charge of tying up loose ends

>>49879123
That's actually matching the fluff.

Cyclopes are supposed to be terrible warriors with zero depth perception and bad with weapons, but use their ability to see into the future to ensure they hit.

That's what the Future Sight represents.

>>49879201
I mean, it's a wargame story with a constant narrative. Leaving loose ends is how it works.

>>49879204
Replace Future Sight with +2MAT. Saying they use their ability to see the future to hit means they're really good at hitting their targets, which means they should have good MAT. This is the entire problem with the Savage; it can't crack heavies with such low P+S, and its MAT is too low to deal with infantry since you attack and need to boost, then buy an attack and need to boost again. You kill 2 infantry. It's like an 8 point Nihilator with worse MAT that needs to have its fury managed.

So since skorne is obsolete, help me decide on how to expand my trolls /tg/

Beast list:
Doomie2/3 or Ragnor
EBDT or Rok
Whelps or Dhunian knot

Obligatory Mk3 Gunline list:
Gunbjorn or Grim2
Bomber or banditos

And then either Griss2 or Borka 1 so i can actually make a troop list with all my troops

Thoughts?

>>49879258
I mean, there's a deeper problem with combat lights that has nothing to do with Future Sight.

The problem with the Savage isn't that it isn't an incredible hitter, because most combat lights aren't.

The problem is that it's got nothing else to do.

Like, compare the thing to the Galvanizer, another combat light.

Galvnizer is 1 less POW, 1 less DEF, roughly the same MAT, 1 less RNG, 1 less SPD.

Otherwise identical. Same ARM, same number of boxes, etc, etc.

The galvanizer is, in pure combat stats, strictly inferior. Sure, in faction buffs help a lot with all it's issues, but there's plenty of buffs for the Savage as well.

However, the Galvanizer has a shitload more utility. Repair is an excellent ability to have, Critical GW isn't exactly something to build a list around, but it's got some decent situational use. Of course, all the Field Marshals just finish the deal here.

Meanwhile, the only thing the Savage has is Future Sight. Now, that's not a bad animus to have, regardless of what people say, but that's the extent of it's support.

Combat lights can't be pure lights unless the faction has some shit to turn them in. They need things to do on the way in, or some support element that they can help the army with.

If the Savage had some other ability to help support the army, it would be fine, though it could also use a point reduction.

But even at +2MAT and no future sight the damn thing would be a piece of shit, because the buff doesn't solve the issues that combat lights have.

Galvanizer is one less POW

>>49879370
Yeah. Good lights generally have a gun, shield guard, arc node, have AD shenanigans, etc. Only time I can think of where a melee battleline relied on them was Mk2 Amon.

>>49879123
>Molik is basically PS18.5
I see your point, but this situation of individual rolls is where WM really isn't just 3.5 S, and Arm 21-22 is fairly common to face.

I will concede that the ability may not be at its best on Karn specifically though. I don't play Skorne, so my experience with it is elsewhere where it has been quite excellent.

>>49879454
Mk2 Vyros did, but yea.

It's fine to have a light that can be a beatstick, it can't just be only a beatstick with nothing else.

Like, if the Savage just had one more supporting rule on it that was worth it, it would be worth slotting into a list. Just something to help the army or list out somehow.

>>49879525
As a rule of thumb, you never need to boost damage on a target you're able to kill. And Karn isn't really going to miss a heavy in the first place. I just wouldn't go in on a massively armoured target unless I was using a Bronzeback with a caster that can amp up its damage. Like, on Naaresh feat turn I've had a Bronzeback kill a Hyperion in 6 punches. Shit was rad. If it's something like Durst's feat turn or Stryker1's feat turn, I'd just back off my heavies and push my jammers forwards.

My god do I ever feel envy when I read Stryker1.

>>49879742
Mk2 Lucant would have been a great Skorne caster.

Mk3 Lucant still would, but fucking hell Mk2 Lucant.

>>49879370
At +2MAT the Savage would be a pretty good model for tying up infantry. You run in with Rush and Abuse, kill 4 of them to almost claim your 8 points of value back, then you just sit there and dare anything to try and run past you. So the unit is stuck fighting a 13/16 with 20 boxes. If the Savage survives you're in Valuetown.

>>49879683
>Mk2 Vyros
Yeah same shtick as Amon.

>>49879800
That seems good on paper, but it just doesn't work out that way.

If you're talking about jamming and killing, for example, a unit of infantry still do it way better.

>>49879981
>That seems good on paper, but it just doesn't work out that way.
You just described Future Sight.

By chance do any of you have a copy of no quarter 68? I wanted to take a look at the rpg stuff in it if anyone has it handy.

>>49880134
Check archive. Pretty sure I've seen it about at some point.

Might be able to help later if it's on laptop still.

>>49880110
Future Sight is a fine ability. Maybe a little wasted on the Savage, sure, but the animus is nice on other models.

>>49880550
>but the animus is nice on other models
But the thing is, it isn't. Why spend 8 points on a Future Sight stick that needs its fury managing when you could just bring a Willbreaker for Puppet Master? Oh how I wish Puppet Master let you reroll deviations.

>>49880496
Archive only went up to 66 unfortunately unless there is a different one or it is just not with the others and I missed it.

Rhinodon is getting Carapace

Thoughts Skorne players?

>>49880901
It does nothing for it.

>>49880570
Puppet master only works once, and only smooths over the dice a little bit.

Future Sight can have a huge effect on your average dice over multiple rolls.

>>49880901
Where'd you see that?

>>49880901

They should really give that a Knock Down ability.

>>49870416
Sorry - missed the updated link - I just copied the last thread.

How will PP make Cryx work against gunlines? Wll Necrosurgeon get her old recursion back? Will Bane Thralls get stealth or tough back? Will Asphyxious2 get non-upkeep clouds back? Will incorporeal models get free strikes back? Will Revenants go down in points?

>>49881652
Is there an official confirmation?

>>49876330
Oh, right. Sometimes i mix up advance and full advance. I wish they used a different term for one of the two.

What do you wanna see in your factions promoted lesser warlock?

WMW is just a couple weeks away.

I want fyanna to keep her weapon and be a mid line high def caster maybe with elite cadre[striders] as a nod to her formerly being a strider solo

>>49878229
See, now we're talking about outside support. It should be considered, but holistically. Laddermore and the Jr. with a firefly cranks the package up to 40 points. That's over half the list. I should be getting collosal levels of output from it, otherwise it's not worth taking.

Vengers can get up to 14/21 with defender's ward and battle-driven, and that's straight up better than 13/20. Uhlans are 12/21 with iron flesh and wall of steel. Those spells, or others like them aren't uncommon in their factions.

And as far as the damage output, Cygnar has one instance of Fury on Stryker 3. That's it for damage buff or armor debuff spells. No repeated appearances of ignite, parasite, or similiar spells. Their assault lets them make up that difference on hard targets. That extra unboosted pow 12 will do a point to two extra if you're lucky.

So, remove some of their egregious infantry hate, which I think we all agree is part of their problem, then look to see if Cygnar's access to synergistic effects is too much. Would the guns be too strong if they couldn't be buffed to rat 7, pow 16? If they were stuck at rat 5, pow 12, players would rarely if ever use them for shooting. They're too expensive for that.

(Continued)

>>49878229
>>49882630

Now, I think the firefly is fine as is. If you're utilizing ionization, the damn thing wont survive the next round. You sacrificed 8 points for that one round of high pow shooting.
Laddermore, on the other hand might be a bit much for 8 points. She is a tough nut to crack with 13/17, 10 boxes, sitting 17" away from what the storm lances just shot at. And she's a formidable combat solo, to boot. An 8" pow 14 lightning generator gun does a poopton of work. That's the firefly's gun with a boosted damage roll every round. And she has assault, with the same pow 15 charge the lances get, with lightning generator on the melee attack as well. That's 8 potential attacks in one activation. 4 minimum, as long as targets allow.
She could honestly have Electrocharger (the stormlance rat and pow buff) affect enemy models instead of friendlies, forcing her closer. Or electrocharger could be +1/+1 or just +2 to pow. Or have her lightning generators toned down to e-leaps. She'd still be good with a little nerfing.

Granted, I don't think any of this will be done, or should be done. I think it should be tested, evaluated, and considered, then maybe employed via dynamic updates. I'd much rather see them touch one small piece of the Storm Lances, let the meta settle for 6 months, then re-evaluate to see if more needs to be done.

>>49880901

Well, we're definitely not getting the Krea back, then.

Carapace on the bugs has the distinction of them both being points-sinks and slow as hell. It was something you got *instead* of a krea. Keep the Rhinodon at speed 5, 12 points, 17 armor, make paralytic aura a thing again, and I could probably build something too good into a gunline to be allowed in skorne with maybe just two of the damned beasties.

>>49883185

Not to call the mk2 Gunbug a points sink; the gun was amazing. But the mk3 just kind of shuffles around in the backfield/midfield being all but unkillable by ranged attacks- doesn't translate into any kind of useful melee presence.

>>49883185

Although you could probably do better with a Sentry for just 3 more points a model. You'd have to be really tightly budgeted to go for it.

>>49879800

Well, what are AGs good for when they can actually do things?

>Hurt warpwolves and Angelli.. Angelluseses.... weird legion shit
>clear high-def infantry
>hunt broken-stat solos

Useful stuff. The question would be would you pay 8 points for an Ancestral Guardian that was guaranteed 3-soul turns, every turn?

>>49883185
Yes, the Krea is coming back. Skorne's in for some much needed changes but I'm not certain that its enough to drastically move up the ladder.

Their 2017 warlock, not Zaadesh2, is strong currently though so at least that is something to look forward to.

>>49879742
>As a rule of thumb, you never need to boost damage on a target you're able to kill.

My autism prevents me from letting this go.

"If you hit on 5s or better on 2d6 and are doing dice - 3 or better damage on 2d6, you don't boost damage" is a better rule. I'm probably being horribly pedantic here, as typically, if you need more than 5s to hit or are doing less than dice - 3, you probably can't kill it with what you're throwing at it (which, I'll admit, *is what you're saying*) unless it's a caster. But that "unless it's a caster" is a pretty big deal, and there are some cases where boosting damage is beneficial, too.

At some point I should work up a printable chart with optimal buy/boost strategies for all reasonable situations.

>>49883444

You keep telling me the nicest things, anon. Then again you very well may be the antichrist.

>>49883444
>Skorne's in for some much needed changes but I'm not certain that its enough to drastically move up the ladder.

Well, here's the matter as I see it.

We're probably here
>you into Skorne and skorne-wrecking happens

I suppose we're supposed to want to be here
>you into Skorne and things happen that are determined by list construction and on-table shenanigans and it really could have gone either way if you had it to do over knowing more than you knew then

I suppose we're not supposed to want to be here
>you into skorne and nothing fucking happens


Either we're staying in the first one, or bounding into the third one. But this is part in ladder-fire target acquisition where you overshoot if you mean to hit the target any time soon; they're probably not doing that, instead creeping up carefully. So this could take a while.

>>49883700
Its a gunline warlock.

>>49883554
well if you are at dice -3 and boost your damage range is 0-15 if you don't boost it is 0-9 with a higher chance to be 0, so the averages will be 4 and 7.5 respectively if it has 5 hp it is better to boost, if it has 10 it is better to buy a second attack in most situations.

>>49883791
What the fuck.

What are you even saying

>>49883857

Undershoot, on target, overshoot.

It's an old gunnery technique (or rather a pair of techniques). In both the first ranging shot falls short. In one you aim to overshoot with your next shot then downladder until you hit the target. In the other after the first undershoot you increase your range by a small set increment, over and over, approaching the target- once you are really, really close, you straddle the target, then hit it.

The first method ended with a hit on target a lot faster than the second one did.

So by that logic fixing skorne stands to take a while, since we will not be risking an overshoot (that being quasi-invincible skorne).

>>49884019
>We.

Hello Soles. No wonder Skorne is fucked you can barely communicate through text.

Have you tired attempting to be coherent?

>>49884125

"we the community and pp both" kind of we.

It's actually pretty coherent if you pick up on the reference, opaque otherwise, my bad. Hope I explained it well enough.

>>49884019
Fuck yourself. For all the time they are being complete garbage they should get something in return and i dont mind them to get quasi-invincible for a month or so.

>>49884459
The problem with them being invincible for a bit is it means they might just get shit on again.

>>49884535
So lets sit still and see the Skorne players leaving eh? I am not personally one of them but whatever FOTM month they can get - i am okay with that.

>>49884565
The point would be to raise them to a playable, but balanced level.

Wold lists I need them if they're even viable at this point.

>>49884624
eBaldur is your friend.

Loves himself a Woldwrath.

I got a $58 Prime Axiom on minimarket.

Which servitors do I need?

>>49884161
Don't worry about it. The dude is just on the warpath about Skorne. It's probably the guy who got banned from the PP forums.

>>49882990
>If they were stuck at rat 5, pow 12, players would rarely if ever use them for shooting
At least you're not Skorne's RAT5 POW10 shooting units.

>>49885422
You can't compare anything to Skorne.

>>49885445
WE HAVE TWO OF THEM

>>49885002
One of Attunement, Elimination, and Reflex should be good.

Accretion can be cornercase as well.

>>49885422
Okay, let's be salty about Skorne: Skorne Sucks!

Now that we've got that out of the way, and it totally won't be rehashed a hundred times over the next two months on this website alone, maybe we can talk about something else?

>>49883792
What the fuck? A GUNLINE MAGE?

What utter, fucking bollocks.

I am glad you are a troll, Anon, because it fucking WORKED


REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

So I see people complaining about imbalance, but then the game is praised as the most balanced. What is the truth? Would a troll/skorne/cryx army have a chance against cygnar/khador/circle in a competitive environment? What would be the rough % of success?

Thinking of running a for fun event in my meta because a lot of people are getting burned out by the competitive scene.

Basically, you show up, and get a list of "achievements" you can do, ranging from easy to hard, that give you a varying amount of tokens, which are then used at the end of the event for an auction.

So basically, it's less about outplaying your opponent, and more about figuring out how to get the achievements. You can get steamrolled, but still knock out a few achievements and walk away not feeling like it was a waste of time, or that there's no real point being there for the rest of the day because you now have a loss.

Examples...

>Drag someone from at least 6" away
>using a spray attack, target at least 3 models but only kill the model furthest away
>lose every game
>perform a combined ranged attack with 10 participating models
>play a game with 15 fewer minutes on your death clock

And so on and so forth. Thoughts?

>>49886838
The game is totally imbalanced, and has been ever since they rape-inserted Hordes bullshit into Warmachine. Now every edition makes shit more and more imbalanced while they try and shove Hordes's sixteen cocks into the one hole Warmachine has without causing bleed-out from hemorrhoids. There won't be a balanced game until Warmachine goes back to being Warmachine, Hordes goes back to being Hordes, and Warmahordes ceases to exist as the hideous mutie rape baby that it fucking is.

>>49886838
Balance is total shit. PP fucked it up real bad and people abandoned ship for Infinity and Guild Ball in my area.

>>49882990
>>49883002

I wasn't counting the Firefly in that, just Laddermore; she's worth her points alone, but the Firefly is almost entirely a support piece. Adding the Firefly makes it even better -- POW 16 shots and POW 12 e-leaps is crazy, but as you say it's getting quite expensive.

And part of the issue with Cygnar is their buffs are so common, and one of the main ones -- Arcane Shield -- is available to all casters. Sure Vengers look *much* better in comparison if you play them with Kreoss3 or High Reclaimer, but just about every Cygnar caster can do something useful to Storm Lances. That they're universally good within the faction is pretty indicative that their underlying design is too good.

I maintain that removing Assault as the only change goes a long way to bringing them back in to line because now they do *everything*, and removing Assault drops their maximal range as a shooting unit *and* more importantly drastically reduces their infantry shredding on a charge, and knocks them down slightly vs. the other heavy cav in terms of damage on the charge.

The problem is they're amazing infantry shredders, don't really pay anything in terms of other abilities as compared to comparable units, *and* are in a faction that is really good at buffing them.

>>49886838
The balance is not as bad as the whiners claim. There's a palpable power level difference between some factions, but player skill overwhelms it until both players are *very* good.

>>49888127
>player skill overwhelms it until both players are *very* good.
rrrreeeeeeeEEEEEEEE

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>>49886838
Skorne had the worst winrate at 39% at WTC (A large, high-level, international tournament). Which is probably the best data we have. That's about 15% less than the top performer Circle. This is actually pretty typical of performance spreads you'll see in competitive computer games. So by Wargame standards it's not bad.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?261988-WTC-Hot-Take-Stat-Pics

For a pickup games on a game to game basis the balance is not terrible and player skill can frequently carry the day. The real issue is that gap makes stringing together multiple wins against equally skill opponents really hard. So a tourney win is difficult. Fortunately Privateer Press can and will be doing some tuning passes to try to tighten things up.

>>49881619
I'm starting to lean more and more to the theory that they'll probably just blanket nerf True/Eyeless Sight even more. It's not a Cryx specific fix, but the game would probably be better off with a blanket gunline nerf anyway and honestly Cryx's core problem vs gunlines isn't that they can't deal with them, it's that it's impossible to make a list pairing that can cover every variety.

>>49888644
True sight : Ignore stealth and Concealment. Done.

Does PP have a weekly schedule of new stuff?

>>49887402
Sounds cool.

>>49888319

The "15% less" thing was a bit of statistical illiteracy that got established in the forums before the math-nerds got their boots on. Somebody looked at the stats, and compared the highest and lowest factions to the 100th percentile, and then said that 15 out of 100 isn't significant, and it sounds just plausible enough for confirmation bias.

When you compare the Skorne and Circle percentages to *each other*, however...

Anyway, people went ape-shit.

>>49889584
Yes, yes. 39 is 28% less than 55. I was referring to the thing being measured (win percentage) not a literal ratio of the two factions winrates.

>>49886838
Mk2 balance was flawed but generally not bad. Mk3 balance is a trainwreck. It will probably be at the level of Mk2 again in 2 years and might be good in ~5.

>>49888319
>Skorne had the worst winrate at 39% at WTC (A large, high-level, international tournament). Which is probably the best data we have. That's about 15% less than the top performer Circle.
Circle actually had a ~50% higher winrate than Skorne. Also do keep in mind that in tournaments, faction winrates normalize towards 50% due to the very nature of brackets. Though that is extremely hard to quantify.

>>49889969

And 55 is ~40% more than 39. Big enough ratios in and of themselves that you ought to be able to start to see the panic that people that see things in standard deviations had with a 15 percentile gap in as thoroughly normalized a sample as they'd ever be getting.

>hell *5%* in 100 is held to be something at least worth a little noticing

>>49890432
Sure and that's why they issued a mea culpa and said their looking at buffing the whole faction on top of the general balance changes.

Hey guys, two buddies and me started playing Warmachine with mk3 and we've been having fun so far. Now I want to get a new army, the dickhead elves and I really like Ossyan and the Battle Engine. However I've read that gunlines are super strong and that Ossyan is also a pretty good caster.
Now, this isn't about how I or one of my buddies could improve his lists, but about how they match up to each other.
My list:
http://conflictchamber.com/#b51b460w0w4leP3x3u3x3y3y3ybC

Retribution Army - 75 / 75 points

(Ossyan 1) Lord Arcanist Ossyan [+28]
- Hydra [15]
- Hydra [15]
- Hypnos [18]
- Moros [11]
Stormfall Archers [9]
- Soulless Escort (1) [1]
Stormfall Archers [9]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
Arcantrik Force Generator [19]

VS Cygnar Buddy:

http://conflictchamber.com/#b11bbS9HeOdXa5a9a6dhanaj9c9c

Cygnar Army - 75 / 75 points

(Nemo 3) Artificer General Nemo [+25]
- Storm Chaser Adept Caitlin Finch
- Stormclad [18]
- Dynamo [18]
- Reliant [14]
Stormblade Infantry [10]
- Stormblade Infantry Storm Gunner (3) [6]
- Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard [5]
Stormblade Captain [5]
Captain Arlan Strangewayes [4]
Journeyman Warcaster [4]
- Firefly [8]
- Firefly [8]

VS Protectorate Buddy:

http://conflictchamber.com/#b21b12eV222d1G1L302mbQ3z3t3t3B

Protectorate Army - 75 / 75 points

(Feora 2) Feora, Protector of the Flame [+28]
- Hand of Judgment [18]
- Reckoner [16]
- Vanquisher [17]
- Redeemer [11]
- Vigilant [9]
Choir of Menoth (max) [6]
Exemplar Errants (max) [16]
- Exemplar Errant Officer & Standard [4]
Vassal of Menoth [3]
Vassal Mechanik [1]
Vassal Mechanik [1]
Wrack [1]

Would my Ossyan gunline stomp over the other two lists?

Tied between Cryx and Khador. Love both, but i heard that Cryx cannot really run their mechanithralls or stuff pretty well, and Khador does not have much of a variety on their infantry.
Is it true or i am being lied to?
Also sort of thinking about Cephalyx.

Self-fix: Cryx cannot run their small infantry and jacks pretty well.

>>49889455

http://www.warmahordesreleaseschedule.com/

And sometimes http://www.thewarstore.com/PIPPRE.html?var=deliriumcg updates faster.

>>49890993
Mechanithralls specifically are pretty weak right now, but Cryx still has access to solid infantry options. The Satyxis are all pretty good and Bane Knights can do work.

Khador has some good infantry and loaded up winter guard rifleman can be absurd. Khador is just one of the most jack friendly factions in a game edition that is itself Jack friendly.

Khador are generally considered one of the stronger factions overall while Cryx are considered a bit below the curve but still playable. Remember that there's a big round of balance changes coming in January though. The best advice is probably still to pick a faction you think looks cool and that you'd enjoy painting.

>>49889527

Thanks!

You think it would be better to have global achievements, and faction specific ones, or just one big global list that you can't fully complete (Khador can't crit consume 3 models in a game)

>>49882501
Well what it really is is "Walk", and I guess that just didn't sound actiony and combaty enough. Everyone I play with just says walk when they full advance anyway.

>>49891119
Global and faction specific so all armies are equally represented.

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Thoughts?

http://conflictchamber.com/#b71b58bL9Des0j0kezezbDed034k4i

Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points

(Grissel 1) Grissel Bloodsong, Fell Caller [+29]
- Trollkin Runebearer [4]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Dozer & Smigg [18]
- Troll Bouncer [9]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (min) [6]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Northkin Fire Eaters [7]
Trollkin War Wagon [18]
Horgle Ironstrike [4]
- Pyre Troll [9]
Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress [3]
Saxon Orrik [4]

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What's your favorite looking Colossal/Garg? Personally I like the Galleon and Storm Raptor the best.

>>49886787
I wasn't trolling. Skorne's next warlock has a ranged focus feel.

>>49891959
Hydra all the way.

>>49891959
Mountain King.

>>49892442
I hate the damned whelps on the MK. He's really cool otherwise. I guess that's why I like the look of the Glacier King more.

>>49888127
Wouldn’t that power imbalance play a bigger role in newbies? I imagine a fresh cryx player would get rolfstomped by a fresh khador play, but the fight would be more equal in higher skill levels.

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>>49891959
The mythical Cryxian Unicorn

>>49893537
Why even bother giving it a head if it won't be able to see for shit?

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>>49891959
Prime Axiom is a cute

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>>49891959
as much as im a huge cryx fanboywhen I first got in it was a toss up btween cryx and khador iv got to say that the conquest is my favorite looking colossal, now if PP ever makes a slayer based colossus rather than a crabjack colossals id by that up in a heartbeat and love it.

>>49894044
Why are the Winter Guard turning their heads away from the Empress?

>>49892289
Do they have a spell list like [Any fucking Cygnar caster]? If not, they're unplayable because Cygnar just blows you away with superior firepower.

>>49894124
They heard the distinct sound of a Laelese car bomb.

>>49894124

Turning your back on your absolute sovereign, or eyeing Butcher's waifu. I don't envy them their choices.

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>>49894490
No, no is nonsense. llael perfectly safe. no need to worry about corrupt nobility trying to steal back the land to exploit everyone, or religious zealots that will burn you to death if you don't convert, or horrible undead abominations against man and god that can rend your soul in twain.

is perfectly safe.

>>49894589
>horrible undead abominations against man and god that can rend your soul in twain.
No need to talk about you mother like that.

>>49894238
Sort of. Kinda like Damiano though.

>>49867960
I love big billowing capes and easy to assemble models like Lord Carver and Runewood.

I haven't played Warmahordes since early to mid Mk 2. How has the game/meta changed since then? Who got buffed and who got nerfed?

>>49895920
WARMACHINE/HORDES FACTION POWER RANKING

>God (S tier)
Cygnar, Khador

>Good (A tier)
Retribution, Circle

>Mid-High (B tier)
Mercs, Minions, Convergence

>Mid (C tier)
Menoth, Trolls, Legion

>Mid-Low (D tier)
Cryx

>Low (E tier)
Skorne

>>49873762
To be fair, FA: U is bullshit and probably hard to balance.

I think 4 should be the highest FA. That would help with things like mad dog spam.

This guy is still retarded though.

>>49895947
Menoth is A tier. B, C, and D tiers are close enough to not warrant separate tiers.

>>49895952
The game would be better if FA 2 was the highest in the game, full stop. It would be better than it is *now* if everything was FA 1. suggesting this as a "fix" is retarded because of the number of people it would piss off into leaving the game, *and* it's worse than moving everything to FA 2.

>>49896123
>Menoth is A tier. B, C, and D tiers are close enough to not warrant separate tiers.

Agreed

>>49895952
>>49896123

Just to follow up on FA, FA in Mk3 is broken by Power Up. In Mk2, most of the FA U options were jacks and beasts and fundamentally limited by how much juice you could feed them (or leech off of them). With Power Up (and jacks getting cheaper across the board), all of a sudden the stuff that was limited by caster resources is now mostly unbound, so the really efficient ones (Hunters under Sloan, Crusaders under Amon, Kodiaks/Mad Dogs under Harkevich) enter the "the more the merrier" zone.

Problem is Power Up is actually an awesome change for the game and makes most Warmachine factions a lot more *fun* and playable in jack heavy or combined arms layouts. So it's not an easy problem to fix.

I'd vote for everything being FA 2 in a heartbeat, though, and I own 8 Crusaders.

>>49896208
Make it so that power up only works for 3 jacks. 3 heavies should be enough for anyone, it's about what you get for free with jack points anyway.

>>49896874
Then lights are back to trash. Not that they're great now, but they're not the utter trash they used to be.

Three is kinda small, though. Four or five I think would work pretty well.

>>49896208
>>49897068
Agreed. FA 4 for generic jacks would still allow heavily skewed lists while curbing the most egregious abuse.

The alternative is just making the spammed jacks a lot more expensive so they're no longer as attractive to spam with their synergy casters which seems like a sucky fix.

>>49895947
>Protectorate in C
>Wormwood not in S

What would a decent general purpose Menoth 'jack list look like? What caster should i use? Please help a new anon out before i spend stupid money!

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>>49900662
It's a faction chart, not a warnoun cheese chart. Besides, he'll only be flavor of the month til PP chops him down with the coming balance errata.

>>49900753
Sevy2, ~2 Reckoners, maybe a Templar, then add more stuff.

>>49900862
I can't look at Cassius and not see Wrath of the Druids.

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>>49900874

>>49900874
Not to sound dumb, but is sevy2 Hierarch?

>>49900987
Yes, correct. Oh and I forgot to mention: You might want to bring his character arc node "Blessing of Vengeance" as well.

The core of a Sevy2 list could for example look like this:

(Severius 2) Hierarch Severius [+26]
- Blessing of Vengeance [13]
- Reckoner [16]
- Reckoner [16]
- Templar [15]
Vassal of Menoth [3]
Choir of Menoth (min) [4]


From there on you could use this page:
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments

to see what other people brought to tournaments with him.

>>49900987
Yes, after Voyle decided to go full retard.

>>49901089
It wouldn't have been full retard if he had won.

>>49901076
Thank you kind sir. i will do just that

>>49901118
He would have won if he didn't go full retard. As Hierarch you don't openly defy Menoth.

>>49891114
2-3 options means it is not "good" for me really because of little variety.
Khador rolls only winterguard or something else aswell?
Can Cryx do some jackspam?

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>>49901489
Cryx can do a strong anti-Hordes jack spam list via Venethrax. Sadly Mortenebra is kinda weak so they don't really have a natural strong all comers jack spam list. That said, Cryx casters tend to be higher focus and can still run plenty of jacks.

>>49901489
>Khador rolls only winterguard or something else aswell?
IFP are fine. Shocktroopers are good. They do have one really strong Infantry spam caster is Irusk2 if that's your thing.

>>49901556
What does Irusk1 do?

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>>49901489
Cryx is still a "Tricks" faction. They aren't really set up to win via raw muscle anymore, so generally you're looking at an assassination and/or control list with the likes of Denny1 or 3, Skarre1, Coven, Gaspy3 and Scaverous. Since Cryx is so debuff focused your caster doesn't dictate choices as much outside of arc nodes.

>>49901566
Infantry Support and turning his control range into rough terrain. Same as always. Both Irusks are Infantry centric, Irusk2 just tends to be favored since his thing is making them all tough.

What's a good way to buy into Convergence of Cyriss? I want them as a second faction, but can only get 1-3 models at a time. I really want to use Iron Mother. What are the must have jacks for her?

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>>49902128
I'm not very familiar with Convergence, but my understanding is that Mother REALLY likes the Prime Axiom.

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>>49902295
cute

>>49902319
Now that you mention it, those kind of look like blush lines.

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>>49902383
>Onee-sama not so hard >.<

>>49902446
Nice OSL.

>>49900753
To follow along with what the other anon was saying...

Pick a caster. We have very few bad ones, but the best ones are usually thought to be Sevvy1, Sevvy2, Kreoss1, Kreoss3, Amon, High Reclaimer, and maybe Vindictus.

Amon is a special case, and wants a lot of cheap jacks, but everyone else wants some sort of combined arms approach.

For the non-Amon casters, they'll mostly be fine starting with a Reckoner or two, maybe a Templar, a Choir to back them up (ALWAYS have a Choir), and some infantry -- Idrians with their unit attachment are our best general-purpose infantry right now, and while Kreoss3 really wants Vengers, everyone else will be happy with Idrians as one of your non-jack choices.

>>49902295
Primes a mommies boy.
>>49902319
>encounters a field mouse
>hovers back behind mother
>gives weak but assertive beeps till the rodent scampers away

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>>49867960
Aside from Legion beast aesthetics, I'm a fan of Circle armor (pain in the ass to paint, but well worth it), as well as units that are or appear heavily armored (up to and including WoW-levels of ridiculous)

>>49902446
>>49902470
>B-but I exhaust from there!
>Not right now you don't.

>>49905451
If you want stupid amounts of armour, Skorne Cataphract Cetrati are what you want. Their UA is Tyrant Vorkesh, the king of pauldrons.

>>49906119
>recommending Skorne

>>49906141
>Not buying a salty Skorne player's army cheap on ebay before PP do something stupid in January like give Nihilators overtake and Molik Karn crit decapitate

>>49906164
But anon, Skorne can't be a good army. How will we be able to suspend our disbelief of them getting their shit kicked in at every opportunity in the fluff?

>>49906283
But they're godly in the fluff. It took a serious montage to make them lose.

Going to do a spell draft with skorne. Which caster do I use? I was thinking either Hexeris2 or zaal2.

>>49906797
Zaal2 can be great with the right army.

But in general, you want to use casters who have special abilities not tied to their spells or who rock a ballbusting feat.

>>49906823
>special abilities not tied to their spells
This is Skorne we're talking about.

>rock a ballbusting feat
THIS IS SKORNE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT

is the pc game a good entry into warmachine to get used to the mechanics of the tabletop since it seems to be pretty similar in many ways to the talbetop... more so compared to warhammer 40k games

>>49908754
No

>>49908754
Payed into the kickstarter for it. Ran like shit, never played past the intro mission. Multiple updates, tried again a few months ago, still runs like shit. The only good think i got out of it was some nice LE models.

>>49867790
For those that never banespammed, it is undeserved. McThrall squads were brtual, but easily killed with a few sprays. Now, it is no longer. With their damage reduced by three and their regeneration unit not able to hold more than 3 tokens, they were a mainstay in my forces, now I have switched over to a more gunline survivable faction for a time.

>>49879277
Skorne's not obsolete. My LGS has a tournament Skorne player who'll be the first to say Skorne's fine, the complainers are folks who are trying to play them a way they don't work right. He insists that if you look at how the units interact, and build and play your force accordingly, they're as competitive as anything. He's the only Skorne player in our crowd, but I've never seen anyone beat him.

>>49911588
I agree. You look at the way the units interact, and then run nothing but titans, aradi, and paingivers.

>>49911588
So, pray tell, how do the units interact in such a way that makes them competitive?

Some of the best players in the world consider Skorne subpar, I doubt your buddy is a problem.

>>49886838
Game isn't balanced, but closer than most. Wargames in general just tend to be fucked in this regard, honestly.

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>>49911588
Le
>So scrubs get out played by someone who happens to play skorne and that means the faction is fine?
maymay.

>>49887461
Warmachine and Hordes wouldn't be able to stand on their own. Better to blend them together into one even more. Y'kno like they did with Mk3. Are you seriously having trouble beating Hordes armies? Really? Or do you really think that the differences between the two are anywhere near as drastic as they were? Because they're the same fucking game at this point. Whatever you may have thought about keeping Muh Warmsheens pure from Horde's inclusion, that battle was lost long ago. Deal with it.

>>49886838
Honestly, not too far off 50%

A bad match-up can be just about as auto-lose, pointless shuffling of dollies as you could imagine. But that happens in warmachine vs warmachine and hordes vs hordes, intra-faction derby or even the same caster running different lists. Some things counter some other things, and some of the counters in this game counter hard.

>>49911662
But that's every faction. Cygnar literally is just Haley2 and memelances, Khador is just maddogs box spam, cryx is just all the satyxis, etc.

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>>49887461
>Thinking wm/h were ever 2 separate games.

>>49894238
Until anyone gets close. Then Cygnar cries while being ripped apart.

>>49911827
Circle is just a Tree

>>49887402
Check out miniwargaming, they did a thing like that, I'm guessing back in mk2.

Seemed to have mixed results. Folks throwing games, and just grinding achievements.

You could just hand out certificates of participation to all "competitors" and everyone could leave with a smile on their dial.

>>49895947
>Mercs, Minions and CoC higher than Menoth, trolls, and Legion

Nigga, you stupid

>>49911588
Yea sure, that's why PP said that while most all other armies they'll be looking at the over and under performers to retool, Skorne instead got a huge spheel about how they'll be reworking the whole faction.

Your local meta sure must be pretty representative of the whole community when there's only one single Skorne player there.

>>49895947
Huh. I expected PP to nerf Cryx sooner or later, but I didn't expect them to go that far, to make them plummet down the rankings. Cygnar and Khador being at the very top leads me to believe that Mk3 made infantry gunlines a lot better.

>>49896123
I agree almost completely, except I can see room for FA: 3 or even 4 in some cases. But FA: U only seems to exist to enable obnoxious spam lists.

>>49900753
Reckoner's flare gun makes it just about the most attractive 'jack Menoth has right now. I don't know any of my fellow PoM players who don't run at least one. Besides that, it depends on which caster you're running. If you don't want anything fancy, Crusader is a cheap Heavy beatstick, Devout is cheap shield guard, Revenger is cheap Arc Node. (for those last two, the Blessing of Vengeance combines the two). But really, look at which caster you want to run with and see what works best with them.

>>49912042
Ret is probably about on par with Cygnar and Khador, and of those 3 Cygnar runs infantry gunlines the least.

Ret uses invictors, MHSF, and stormfalls with Ossyan very heavily. The rest of their casters tend to use far less shooting infantry and more jacks and sentinels.

Khador shooting revolves around Behemoth, one unit of widowmakers, and the vastly improved rocketeers attached to the much cheaper winter guard riflemen. Some stick to just one unit because thats all Joe can buff, while others that want to go all-in on shooting stuff off the table will take multiple minimum units with 3 rocketeers each (Vlad1 and Butcher1 seem to be the most popular choices for this).

Cygnar doesn't use many units besides storm lances and trencher infantry. Trenchers are popular because they got better at basically everything and became much cheaper. Storm lances are in because they got a defense bump and synergize very well with the improved laddermore and firefly and the still very good jr. Long gunners are hardly used, and the only gun mages that see much play are the gmca and the new rifleman.

Power Up is a big part of what made shooting lists better. The game has a lot of jacks with good guns and good melee that no caster could quite afford to fuel before, but now they can. Menoth has also benefited from this, even if the Choir took a hit, and are only a notch below the other real WM factions because all of their infantry besides idrians are so bad.

>>49911827
Except it's something threatening with the other factions. When Skorne runs their best shit it just means the Skorne player has a 30% chance of winning instead of a 15%.

>>>>49911588 (You)
So, pray tell, how do the units interact in such a way that makes them competitive?

I dunno. I can't beat the guy. But he marches the whole fucking thing up together, and I can't kill anything because of everything else. (I am not an experienced player, mind you)

>>49911740
Something you disagree with does not necessarily = bait. I don't like Skorne one bit, I'm passing along something from someone much better than I.

>>49911935
A single Skorne player who I've never seen lose, mind you. I'm not saying I run them.

What's Legion doing in the story right now? Are they finally attacking a civilized kingdom?

>>49912317
There's a huge learning curve to this game man, something you have to keep in mind.

Just because something seems unkillable to you doesn't mean it isn't, it just means either you don't know what to do to kill it, or you don't know how to mitigate it.

>>49912381
I don't know what the spiel in the new book is, but I do know that the twins forced him to not eat another dragon heart because doing so would have gotten him killed.

>>49911588

What kind of lists does he play?

Well just bought a warmachine mk3 starting kit at my local shop today. Hopefully I didn't fuck myself.

>>49912476
Which faction?

Also, there's a long, long grind in the game before the balance issues people are talking about here become a real issue.

And if anyone is fucking using tourney lists on you, or at least playing them at that level, then fuck those guys.

>>49912574
Anon did say warmachine. So cryx is the most fucked possible.
Which isn't even all that fucked. Knocked well clear of the mk2 bane step ladder they were standing on, but not pantsless knees to the chest proper fucked like O'baney the internet cryx playing leprechaun would have you believe.

>>49912968

I thought nerfed the bulk of their effective units like Thralls, Banes, undead stuff period, the War Witch, the Pistol Wraith and their second Colossal?

>>49912574

cryx and cygnar.

Down the road if my buddy likes it i'm playing khador though.

>>49913080
Never said cryx was winning all the awards.
And honestly they did get shafted super hard.

But the position they were in warranted a good dose. And they got their fair share.

But there is still stuff there. And a little mining should find something glittery.
Just don't expect 50% tourney player base, easy mode. There are some real issues, but my point is more that peeps be crying rape when actually it was consensual but PP slipped a finger in the butt and pulled some hair, which some folks apparently don't like....

>>49912317
>he marches the whole fucking thing up together, and I can't kill anything

Sounds like a Cetrati brick (shield wall heavy infantry) with support. FYI this was for the most part nerfed from MK.II. (loss of defenders ward, nerf to krea animus, loss of hit boxes) Only the agonizer really helps with this and that's only after getting in melee.

>A single Skorne player who I've never seen lose
He's a tourny player, so he's decently good (though it doesn't sound like a super difficult meta if he just needs to march his stuff up to win). But if he's the only guy there with Skrone, that means everyone else is used to seeing other armies (and not skrone), and/or the community is so small you don't see a lot of variety anyways. One guys opinion hardly stands up to the community's feedback, and we're not just talking about skorne players bitching, we're talking about the whole community pointing them out as the laughing stock.

Like sure there's probably one guy out there who's Samsung galaxy 8 works fine, statically it won't ever blow up and he'll be just fine and dandy, doesn't mean the rest of the community should just sit happily waiting for their shit to blow up in their hands.

>>49913283

Sounds more like a mutually-supporting single-wound infantry swarm to me. If it's that you're going to want to armor-skew or shoot sections of it off the table.

...Of course if it's a beast brick that would horrible advice. Well, maybe not the second one if you have the faction for it.

>>49913283
>But if he's the only guy there with Skrone, that means everyone else is used to seeing other armies (and not skrone)

Nobody plans for Skorne- where would I be without that?

>of course, if they planned for Khador they have you in a walk
>and if they planned for Ret your infantry is pretty much gone and you don't have an assassination option
>and if they planned for Menoth, enjoy your beast-handlerless existence

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Sup, guys. I've been looking into the Warmachine/Hordes models for a while and really like what I've seen so far. The problem is that I'm coming from 40K and have no idea where to start. Do you guys have any YouTube links or quick read links for a noob?

>>49913505
go on the warmachine channel. literally a how to play.

>>49913505
For how to play, yes.

For faction overviews, I think 1d4chan has some, but they might be kind of out of date.

I guess the general thing to understand is that in this game, your faction choice has an effect on playstyle, but your caster choice has just as much meaning in terms of how your list plays.

For example, every faction has in one way or another a caster or two who can run warjacks/warbeasts, even though generally certain factions run jacks better than others.

>>49913766
If you ask about what faction you're interested in, I'm sure someone can give a quick overview.

>>49913505
Here's a video tutorial.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGJqSUoJscU

Here are the rules
http://files.privateerpress.com/allnewwar/Prime-Digest-Rules-2016-v2.pdf

>>49913797
I'm super indecisive. In 40K I started Nids, grabbed CSM, then SM and Necrons. So, I'm fully expecting having a few small armies.

>>49913857
Thank you, kind anon, and >>49913766 is correct, 1d4chan feels outdated a bit.

>>49913766
>your caster choice has just as much meaning in terms of how your list plays
Unless you play Skorne.

>>49913921
I actually think Warmahordes is great for helping with faction hopping. You can take the exact same list except for warcaster and get a totally different style of playing on the table.

>>49913967
>Take a list with eMorg
>Take a list with pXerxis

Play totally different.

>>49913977
Yeah because an eMorg list uses a razor to slash open your wrists mid game. Naaresh? Makeda1/2/3? pMorg? They're all very interchangable. It's a herd of elephants, some Handlers, some solos, and maybe a unit of jammers if you don't feel like rely on Tormentors/Orin. Void Spirits get brought without Mordikaar so that's no real change. You might bring Aradus, but it's never based on your warlock, it's always dependant on how much shooting you expect.

pXerxis is just about the only warlock in Skorne who makes you want to build a list around what they do as a Cetrati brick works really well with him. Beyond that and eMorg pretending he's an assassin, everything in Skorne is the same. pHexxy brings a Razor Wurm in his generic Skorne list, oh my god so unique!

This is why Skorne is probably the cheapest faction to play; you can run beast heavy, and every list uses the same beasts. I own 6 warlocks, and my lists are almost the same for them barring pXerxis.

>>49914038
And it's a well known problem, and one they've promised to fix.

And pMorg would much rather run Soldiers than Elephants.

>>49914092
>And pMorg would much rather run Soldiers than Elephants.
This isn't really set in stone. Gladiators have the advantage of being cheap with lots of high damage attacks, the Bronzeback has the advantage of slightly higher SPD, leadership, and higher MAT, as well as smash and grab, which can be surprisingly useful. The Soldier gets 5 PS18 attacks vs the Bronzebacks 6 at PS17. It's splitting hairs really, but the Bronzeback is definitely better on a zone due to throws and being a titan. Carapace is pretty baller sure, but that's nothing to do with Morghoul.

>>49914038

You left out the Zaals...

>>49914377
As discussed with eMorg, unplayable warlocks don't really count.

>>49914389

Now you're just trolling. They're pretty formidable and have their own playstyle.

>>49914389
Both the Zaals are alright, p better than e, and both actually have the distinction of fitting the Skorne style in a way that actually works.

Zaal2 was fantastic for the few weeks where you could put anyone's souls onto your immortal UAs, before their second ruling sent him back into the box.

>>49914431
Their style is infantry, which is not only bad in Mk3, but worse yet for being Skorne.

>>49915541
pZaal wants to lose half his army anyways and can crack armor like a motherfucker with infantry.

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>>49912317

Not that anon, but you do realize you build your whole concept of a faction around one player, don't you?
Its like the guys who insisted AoS didn't sell, because it didn't sell at their local shop. When in fact it sold better than WHFB had in years.

To conclude: You cant base the general assumption around one recent event, because its fucking stupid! You collect data, you look at the facts, you calculate and you get a result that shows the average, this is how you get the cards on the table right.

>>49915541

Infantry isn't bad, though. It's just that you can take more nouns at the same time. That's the real difference. You don't just take the minimum Jack amount.

>>49913977
Yeah, in one of those games you're playing pXerxis and in the other you'll be playing without a warlock.

Skorne Army - 75 / 75 points

(Makeda 2) Supreme Archdomina Makeda [+24]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
- Agonizer [7]
- Cyclops Brute [8]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Molik Karn [20]
Praetorian Keltarii (max) [15]
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer [6]
Legends of Halaak [8]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]


Eh? Lotsa antishooter tech and def skew. All in a mobile speed boosting bubblegoodness with movement shenanigans

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>>49905466
l-lewd

>>49917338
Here's what I don't like about your list.
>1)
You aren't using Mak2's elite cadre
>2)
Stay Death is kinda shit with small cheap infantry
>3)
You have no good Storm Rager target
>4)
Sure Keltarii are hard to hit, but templates do just fine against them. Trying to shield them with a Krea feels bad because your opponent might just not bring shooting, and it makes you fuck yourself sideways keeping 10 dudes inside the bubble

It's very easy to build a Skorne list that's great against shooting. Mak2 has a spell that buffs shooting DEF, Keltarii have high shooting DEF, the Krea boosts shooting DEF. The problem is that the list is ONLY good against shooting. There is no plan B if your opponent pulls out something that doesn't have shooting. Know what else is great against shooting? 20ARM Cetrati. A POW10 shot is going to bounce off that. And if they do a huge combined attack? They just spent all 10 shots taking down 1 guy, which you then just Stay Death. Here's how I'd build Mak2:

>(Makeda 2) Supreme Archdomina Makeda [+24]
- Agonizer [7]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
Hakaar the Destroyer [7]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [20]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Void Spirit [4]

>>49918599

The Krea could mostly be for Karn you know, with everything else in the bubble extra.

Alright, to revive the thread in its twilight posts.

Design a warjack. Not a colossal or a warbeast, but a good old 'jack. While you are doing so, consider these questions.

>Is it a light or a heavy?
>Which faction built it?
>What is its weapon combo (sword/gun, spear/shield, etc.)?
>What, if any, special abilities does it have (ex. shield guard)?
>What role might it play in a commander's strategy?
>Is it famed for its economy, or is it an expensive depot queen?

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>>49864335

RIP Circle

We still blue and Cygnar now

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>>49893537

Rate my kraken m8

>>49919813
Sounds fun. I'll of course go with Cygnar, the most industious faction.

>Is it a light or a heavy?
Heavy

>Which faction built it?
Cygnar, using the Ironclad Chassis

>What is its weapon combo (sword/gun, spear/shield, etc.)?
Cannon (ROF1, 12", POW13, AOE4, Shot Types) + Shield (1", P+S14, Beatback)

>What, if any, special abilities does it have (ex. shield guard)?
Dig In
Shot types: Rough Terrain; Thunderbolt (no AOE); Flare
Field support: If it begins its activation witin 3" of a friendly faction trencher model, it can gain either Dual Attack or Cautious Advance (like the Trencher minifeat) for that activation.

>What role might it play in a commander's strategy?
Holding+defending positions

>Is it famed for its economy, or is it an expensive depot queen?
Not all that cheap, but one will last you for years, if well maintained

>Name
No clue

>Points
~15; It's got a lot of utility and is hard to remove, but will lose almost any trade. It needs to avoid direct confrontations, but if used well can be a royal pain to deal with.

>>49920070
better triumph?

>>49920107
The comparison is unavoidable, yes. I was more thinking of a heavy Grenadier with movement shenannigans though.

>>49919813
I forgot
>What chassis is it based off of?

>>49920070
Very nice.

>>49919813
Heavy.
Menoth, Reckoner Chassis.
Spear and crossbow.
Armor pierce on both attacks, powerful charge on spear. Either ROF 1 on crossbow and then it is assault or volley of 3 shots.
Heavy hunter/medium infantry hunter.
Rather depot queen.

>>49919435
>>49918599
Was was aiming just to skew up the def whole are army as much as possible, and mostly so Molik gets to where ever he has to to wreck face and survive by dodging attacks. After keltarii screen/jam they wiggle into soft back line, back striking what they can before gumming up the oppents backline, forcing my oppenta to suffer either cma back strikes OR a waste turn dealing with fuckinh keltarii instead of a crowd surfing molik
Cue legends, molik, other beaties plus makeda herself moping up

I haven't played since 2014.

What's changed? Are my lists fucked up, or did they just rework stats and rules?

It's hard finding a "differences between MK2 and MK3" guide. I know I should just go down to the store and figure it out.

How are Knights Errants now in mrk3?

>>49922884
Rules are free, so that can help.

Lot has changed, point costs are on a double scale, and things got recosted. Some pretty drastic changes got made to the factions.

Off the top of my head, general changes.

1. Most Warcasters/locks have a shitload of WJ/WB points. It's often possible for a caster to take an entire two heavies for free now.

2. Warjacks now get Power Up, which gives them a free focus when in control.

3. Focus no lower adds to ARM when camped. Instead, a Warcaster can spend a focus to ignore 5 points of damage from an attack.

4. You can no longer charge your own models. Fuck eKruger players and fuck Butcher3 players, because that shit needed to go.

>>49922936
Also unrestricted pre-measuring at all times. So no more triangulating off of control area measurements.

>>49922884
Armies in general will look very different simply due to the points cost changes and new incentives for Jacks in Power Up. Jacks in general got a lot cheaper and Solos and Infantry are more expensive.

>>49923158
Oh fuck, yea.

Premeasuring is absolutely a thing, which is good.

>>49923158
>Also unrestricted pre-measuring at all times. So no more triangulating off of control area measurements.
I was wondering when this was going to happen. Was sick of "lel I'm measuring control area and guessing" mentality that everyone took. May as well allow pre-measure and telling people to play better nstead of relying on someone screwing up an inch.

>Jacks in general got a lot cheaper and Solos and Infantry are more expensive.
Seriously? I'm glad. I was sick of the army heavy lists. I like robots and monsters smashing each other.

I should hop down to my local store, and bust out the Kaya1 small list and see if I can waddle my way back into the game.

>>49923212
Well, one of the issues is that Beasts kind of got worse, though Circle made it through a little better on that regard.

Fury management got harder, for one thing. And most Animi is now Self only, so no casting Lightning Strike for free on your Stalker.

Some animi got shuffled around though. Feral Warpwolves now have Primal, for example(which isn't self, of course), so you don't need a tag along Gorax in your every list.

>>49923261
I'll have to take a more in-depth look. Primal on Ferals sounds a lot better than what they had.

My only gripe is things are a lot more unpainted than I remember. And all my paints are kaput. I should hire someone.

>>49922908
Arent't they just worse Idrians now?

>>49923733
>oh no all my weapon master troops are outshined by a group of savages...

God damned heretical memenoth players

>>49922908
i heard they will have a new UA.

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Is this decent for a Kaya1 25pt list?

Kaya1, Feral, Pureblood, Stalker, and a set of Stones.

Was thinking of using this to relearn the game. I know it would be decent in MkII (or with Kaya2, but they really fucked with her points I can tell.)

>>49924160
Yeah, it's probably fine. Just keep in in mind that the stones' teleportation isn't going to be all that useful. Their healing and fury management should be though.

>>49924160
hope you just forgot one of the stones in the pic, there are supposed to be 3.

>>49925118
Stones are in part a point filler (3 remaining after warbeasts), and part what stones do.

>>49925219
I suck at painting and at camera work. The third is out of frame.

>>49922936
>Lot has changed, point costs are on a double scale, and things got recosted.

Have point costs changed so much?

Is the new 50 what 35 once was (and is new 75 the old 50), because I'm almost having trouble fitting things in with the way things are costed now.

new skorne player what should I buy after the 2player battle box beyond beast handlers.

>>49925670
Another faction.

>>49925670
Hard to say. They're getting a "big" rebalance in January. If you insist on Skorne I'd say just get a few things you really like the look of in the meantime.

Maybe Ferox? They're supposed to be not terrible.