/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>49864294

I don't really get the idea of running CofD mortals when Call of Cthulhu, Fear Itself, Trail of Cthulhu, etc all scratch that itch.

>>49864262
not werewolves specifically, though I have had old veteran hunters hate each other due to them being on opposing sides of a cold war scenario.

No, I tend to keep things pretty local, because it keeps things easier to run. I think speculating about the WoD/CofD setting on the national scale is fun, but I don' t think I could ever do it justice.

>>49864317
I dont have to homebrew a ton when I want to add the god-machine. Other than that its just the system I'm most comfortable with, as it is a very simple system that I've played for years.

>>49864317

The mortal "setting" is compelling enough this time around. The GMC had some damn good story hooks. SF/Horror fusions are my jam, and there's not a whole lot of that besides maybe Eclipse Phase and I think like one other game.

>>49864262
>Does the concept of nationalism come up in your games?
Yes but I like to run my games around espionage organizations and PMCs.

>>49864262
>Does the concept of nationalism come up in your games?
Last game I ran was set during the peak of the British Empire.
So yeah. Nationalism was pretty fucking big.

>>49864294

If you've got a lot of time and don't mind that some of them aren't entirely purely Mortal, try some of these.

http://actualplay.roleplayingpublicradio.com/2012/04/genre/horror/world-of-darkness-anderson-island/

http://actualplay.roleplayingpublicradio.com/2013/08/genre/horror/world-of-darkness-inherit/

http://actualplay.roleplayingpublicradio.com/2010/03/genre/horror/world-of-darkness-candle-cove/

http://actualplay.roleplayingpublicradio.com/2011/11/genre/horror/world-of-darkness-slender-man-episode-1/

Yes, RPPR was doing Channel Zero before it was even a twinkle in Max Landis's eye.

>>49864500

I can vouch for being fucking incredible, though they're at their best whenever Caleb Stokes is on, which was several years after their CofD stuff. Check out the Call of Cthulhu: Bryson Springs one, or their entire recenty Delta Green campaign.

Not at all similar to CofD at all, but they did a playtest campaign of Red Markets that was absolutely stunning.

>>49864527

Yeah, I'm a little bummed that Caleb hasn't done CofD stuff but the stuff he does do is so incredible that I can live with it. I pledged for his No Security adventure collection years back, and I always wanted to run the whole book as a campaign with Promethean. Now that Handful of Dust and Promethean 2e is a thing, I just might do that.

>>49864500
>>49864527
Thanks, will definitely give those a look

>>49864567

Well, he's gonna be pretty busy with Red Markets for the next year or two, and then probably focus more on that than doing freelancing.

Not that I mind.

>>49864569

Keep in mind, these are all (to the best of my knowledge, can you confirm Atamajakki?) pre-2e CofD games, so if you're listening to learn, be aware that there will be some slight but not major differences in the ruleset.

>>49864590

I'm still really bummed that I couldn't get in on Red Market's Kickstarter. There's so many good RPG Kickstarters this past year, and I'm too poor for all of them. Being a mostly unemployed writer is suffering.

>>49864595

All of those are 1e mortals save for the one that drags in some minor Changeling stuff, yeah.

>>49864617

I make a scrap above minimum wage working retail hell and pretty much all of my fun money goes to RPG crowdfunding or art commissions. I know your pain.

Want the Red Markets draft?

Devotions follow the standard vitae expenditure per turn rules don't they?

So you'd have to be BP8 to use Force of Nature?

>>49864631

I really appreciate it, but don't worry about it. Much like Shadowrunning, writing is a feast and famine kind of deal. I'm sure I'll run into a feast soon. I hope.

Anyways the point is that Red Markets and Scion 2e will hopefully be mine once they hit regular PDF on DriveThru. Bluebeard's Bride too, that game looks fucking amazing.

>>49864595
thanks, though I'm more interested in seeing how a mortal game plays out story wise rather than mechanically

>>49864686

Let's pray that OPP actually likes one of my submission before Mummy 2e happens.

Anyone got a link to a copy of Changing Breeds?

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/r/ that photo that a 2D werewolf is saying something like: "Heck, maybe we can even hunt together".

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So has anyone played Delta Green? How would you rank it among Hunter: the Vigil? And how would you compare either of those with Mortals?

>>49865068

If you're talking about the new edition, it's literally just a better game than Vigil and nails its themes better on every front. It's one of my favorite games in existence right now.

Here's the free version if you wanna read: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/175760/Delta-Green-Need-to-Know

One thing, though; DG agents are going to burn out much, much faster than CofD characters of any sort. Sanity is always eroding and you are incredibly fragile.

>>49865008
Are you entirely sure you didn't imagine this?

>>49864262
Yes. I really don't buy the concept of people just suddenly forsaking their loyalties because they're now a vampire/wizard/werewolf/sin-eater. Like, if a klansmen and a black guy both became vampires, I really doubt they'd suddenly become friends.

>>49865068
>So has anyone played Delta Green?
Been a fan since it first came out. Got to play in a game run by the writers
> How would you rank it among Hunter: the Vigil?
Different kind of game. Like CoC you're not supposed to win. Hunter you're supposed to win it's just really hard
>And how would you compare either of those with Mortals?
They're both like advanced mortals

>>49865224
>Like, if a klansmen and a black guy both became vampires, I really doubt they'd suddenly become friends.
why would they?

>>49865242
Exactly. Usually there's some cliche about "oh we're both walking corpses now" which is about as meaningful as saying "oh we're both living organisms" while alive.

>>Because that faggot wont stop asking for it
So you just gave in to trolls?

>>49865272
in both masq and requiem we have race-hating vampires
are there any games that bring vampires together like that?

>>49864500
>Yes, RPPR was doing Channel Zero before it was even a twinkle in Max Landis's eye.
Channel Zero?

>>49864317
Those are all very different from what CofD offers.
Also, Call of Cthulhu is garbage. Trail of Cthulhu is also garbage, it's just got a better system. I don't actually know what Fear Itself is.

I think CofD is without a doubt the best horror setting out there.

>>49865404

Call of Cthulhu is a fantastic game and Trail of Cthulhu is just an improvement on it. Fear Itself uses the same rules as Trail of Cthulhu but has a non-Lovecraftian horror setting made by them, the same one in The Esoterrorists.

CofD isn't super great at mortal horror, honestly. The focus on a morality system over a sanity system and combat is too much of a pillow fight.

>>49864633
You'd have to be BP 8 to use it in one turn. You can spend Vitae over multiple turns for the same action (it's just lost if you get distracted, so no spending and then wandering around the mall and then spending and finishing).

>>49865068
All I know is that Delta Green's setting is or was Call of Cthulhu, and I think that setting/system is dumb. There are a lot of things that Delta Green focuses on that I think Hunter 2e could benefit from, though. Like how the most recent edition is all about balancing your real life and your secret life and trying not to eat a bullet.

>>49865101
I don't agree that it's a better game than Vigil, but we'll see if I change my tune after reading this. Vigil does so many things that I love on top of the already beloved CofD setting and mechanics. Delta Green would have to be amazing for me to like it more.

>>49865447
>The focus on a morality system over a sanity system and combat is too much of a pillow fight.
Integrity is a sanity system not a morality system
Combat isn't a pillow fight and has a lot more depth than DG

>>49865471

Delta Green grew out of Call of Cthulhu but is pretty soundly its own thing, and the new standalone game has a lot of mechanics that Hunter 2e would strongly benefit from. The setting runs the risk of feeling slightly pulpy (especially when you get into the WW2 portions of the timeline where they're fighting evil Nazi sorcerers), but is largely just gritty and brutal and awesome.

I really can't wait for the GUMSHOE game to come out later on and add the 1960s setting.

>>49865507

CofD combat definitely isn't the strong suit of the system, and DG definitely has all sorts of fun toys to fiddle around with on that front.

>>49865272
>>49865224
That is literally not how it works at all. I have no idea why you would even assume that's how it works, because that's not how it's presented.
At best is the fact that the Embrace is a massive world changing viewpoint altering event, and petty mortal bullshit can often feel insignificant. This isn't some instant thing, though, just as it's not instant that someone changes when they have a near death experience or lose a loved one or some other big world changing life event.
There are racist vampires.

>>49865447
Call of Cthulhu is garbage. There are so many things that I fucking hate about Call of Cthulhu. Half of what I hate about the Cthulhu Mythos can have the blame placed on Call of Cthulhu.
>The focus on a morality system over a sanity system and combat is too much of a pillow fight.
What?
Integrity is even more Sanity than Morality was (and Morality was already sanity), and Morality is already a pretty meaningful thing in the kind of horror that CofD wants to tell. More than that, combat is pretty dang brutal. It's not one hit kill, but it's the kind of game where getting hurt means worrying about whether the next thing that tries to grab you is going to get you for real.
Combat isn't a pillow fight just because white room battles make it seem no one can hit each other.

>>49865530
>CofD combat definitely isn't the strong suit of the system
I actually really like CofD's combat, and it's one of the best combat systems I've come across. There are also a lot of fun toys, too. I'm not sure what Delta Green has, but I've enjoyed the toys CofD has.

>The setting runs the risk of feeling slightly pulpy (especially when you get into the WW2 portions of the timeline where they're fighting evil Nazi sorcerers), but is largely just gritty and brutal and awesome.
See, that's not what I want from this type of game. CofD--and especially Hunter--is a very different kind of game.

Snowden is a piece of shit

>>49865530
>CofD combat definitely isn't the strong suit of the system
No storytelling is
>and DG definitely has all sorts of fun toys to fiddle around with on that front.
It's as lethal as CofD and doesn't have the amount of options

>>49865570

DG largely steers clear of that level of pulp now, it's mostly an artifact of goofy 90s writing. The modern setting is much more about the bleakness of working in security in the post-9/11, post-ISIS world and tosses on cosmic horror and a personal spiral on top of it.

Current DG is largely a game of doing horrible things in the name of preventing worse until your husband divorces you and you lose your job. I'd sooner see that than Hunter's sort of wibbly wobbly "I'm in a cool monster-hunting organization!"

>>49864317
Because some people like WoD as a system, and have things built around it? We played a 3 year long mortals chronicle when the 1e blue book first game out, probably the BEST tabletop game I've played in, like ever.

>>49865649

I love the CofD games too, but if 1e is the best game you've ever played then you're missing out on a lot of the gaming market. You can have an awesome game in any system, but don't mistake that for the system being perfect.

>>49865674
Dude, you missed my point completely. I didnt mean 1e the SYSTEM was the best game. I meant that MORTALS game was the best one I've played.

>>49865404

Channel Zero is SyFy's American Horror Story style anthology series that adapts internet creepypasta. The first season is about Kris Straub's Candle Cove. It's apparently not terrible.

>>49865632
But that's not what Hunter is. At all.
Hunter more or less has some of the same themes, but they're broader than just "post-9/11 security" and have less mechanical weight. Like, "doing horrible things in the name of preventing worse until your husband divorces you and you lose your job" is very much Hunter. As well as the theme of not becoming the same kind of fucked up monster you hunt.

>>49865674
Iunno. 1e was my go-to system for a lot of things, and I'd played or read a lot of other systems at the time.

>>49865738
Neat. I'll have to give that a look. I do love Max Landis and his dumb hair and pretentious-but-still-erudite attitude.
A whole series about Candle Cove, though?

A Gangrel elder whose protean nature is so strong that his body unconsciously and reactively morphs in response to his state of mind.

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http://theonyxpath.com/now-available-red-list-shirts/
t-shirts
get your ugly t-shirts here

>>49865834

Yeah, that's my problem with it. Candle Cove's a fun short story but extending it to 12 hours or so sounds like a bad idea. And I've cooled on Landis a bit. I think he can be an excellent writer but boy the smarm gets too insufferable sometimes.

>>49865960
I actually really love the interviews he gives. He's very up his own ass sometimes, but he seems to deserve it.
Also Death and Return of Superman and Wrestling Isn't Wrestling are both amazing.
I liked Chronicle, too. And The Sound of One Hand Clapping, where Superman meets The Joker.

>>49865955

Does anyone actually buy these?

>>49866134
not those
but iv'e got a couple clan/tribe/legion symbol shirts

>>49866099
>I actually really love the interviews he gives. He's very up his own ass sometimes, but he seems to deserve it.
Nothing says he's earned it like being the wealthy son of a Hollywood icon.

>>49866188
Eh. I understand he had a leg up, but he still seems to have made his own way, despite the inherent leg up.
And to be fair, you NEED a leg up to break into Hollywood to begin with, due to the incestuous as fuck way the SAG is set up.

>>49866212
>Eh. I understand he had a leg up, but he still seems to have made his own way, despite the inherent leg up.
Yeah like all his starting work being co-written with his dad and dad's contacts. Just a leg up.

>>49866228
Was it? I don't actually know what he did. I just know that he's done good work. That's what I mean. He's clearly privileged as fuck, (and he's admitted this in one of the interviews I saw), but that doesn't mean he's not talented. If we dismissed talented people for being privileged, we'd have to dismiss most talented people in history.

>>49866266
You're the one who doesn't know about comics from the last thread, aren't you

>>49866302
No, I'm the one who does know about comics (but you'll probably say I'm the one who doesn't).

>>49866266

It does have the unfortunate result of having his best work be centered around the lives and problems of rich people. That isn't a bad thing by any means, but that's not too popular of a topic these days. That Mickey Mouse fan-comic he wrote hits on that topic and is genuinely the best comic he's ever written.

Shit now I'm once again thinking about who I would want for a WoD or a CofD comic.

>>49866440
>It does have the unfortunate result of having his best work be centered around the lives and problems of rich people
Well I mean, I *guess* Triple H counts as a rich person...

Wait, what Mickey Mouse comic?

>>49866494

http://www.sassquach.com/journal/2013/11/4/boys-night.html

>>49866835
>wtf am I reading

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>>49866835
I wish I had Max's night life

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>>49865216
Yes I'm sure but also scared now.

>>49865008
>>49865216
>>49867663

Go ask around on /co/, it's Scooby Doo and the Ghoul School fanart. There's probably a Ghoul School thread up somewhere on there, it's that time of year again.

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>>49867739
I've finally found it. Thank you, anon.

Anybody have that chart that graphed the probability of X success per number of dice?

The pastebin has the original Mage 2e pdf.

Has the recent pdf with the errata been shared?

>>49869245
Oy vey, why do you not want to support your local gaming company, goy?

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>start playing CofD, love it more than nWoD
>want to buy hardcopies of the new 2E books
>end up adding in the other W20 books as well
>look over my shoulder and see this
>sneeze from all the dust

I-I'm supporting production of this game line, right?

>>49869914
Well no since most of those clearly aren't drivethruprg pod

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>>49866440
>the lives and problems of rich people
>ever not popular

I am new to WoD.

Which version is best, new or old?

Are they all separate settings or are they all one big setting?

>>49870970
>I am new to WoD.

Hello, and welcome!

>Which version is best, new or old?

Well... that's up for debate and personal opinion. Personally, I greatly enjoy the 20th Anniversary editions of World of Darkness. Others might enjoy the older versions of World of Darkness, or they might instead be more drawn to the Chronicles of Darkness setting.

>Are they all separate settings or are they all one big setting?

The games fit into two different settings: World of Darkness, the "older" setting, or Chronicles of Darkness, the newer setting.

Both worlds have vampires, werewolves, spirits/ghosts, demons, hunters, etcetera, but the lore and background behind these creatures differs between the settings.

Like, in Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness alike, you've got vampires. But in WoD there's over a dozen "primary" clans, whereas in CofD there's 5 main clans. In WoD the origin and history of the "vampire" race is pretty well-established, whereas in CofD it's a lot more vague and left open for interpretation and personal world-crafting.

In my opinion, CofD is more streamlined and easier for new players to get into, whereas WoD has a more expansive and interesting background for its various gamelines, but again, it all comes down to personal opinion.

>>49871067
>in CofD there's 5 main clans.
And the Jiangshi are like "there's dozens of us!"

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>>49870970
>Which version is best, new or old?
The beauty about World of Darkness right now is that they've rebooted both lines just recently.

Old/Classic World of Darkness condensed all the source books for their major venues into 20th Anniversary editions, ~500 pages of a ton of relevant material. It has a real "classic" 90s RPG feel to it, but has some of the social trappings of that. If you're a triggered SJW, there are racial/ethnic/feminist social groups your character can identify with, that contain stereotypes that aren't "politically correct". Still, it's fun as hell if you want to play a drunken scottish werewolf who kills and fucks everything.

New World/Chronicles of Darkness also recently rebooted with their "Second Edition", revising the clunky rules of the new first edition (think the differences in D&D 3.5 to D&D 5) and tightening up the lores of the various venues. They definitely have a more modern feel, lacking most if not all of the social stereotypes but also including progressive ideas like identity spectrums, sex change magicks and the like.

I only include the socio-political stuff in case you play with other people who might get triggered.

Both settings are vastly different. It is better to think of them as separate game lines (they are). Old/Classic is very much You vs. The Agent of the End (of the World) in super-powered shenanigans. New World/Chronicles is more about you being a supernatural being underneath the surface of the modern world. You can still do shenanigans, but very much in secret. I also think there is a definite combat (old) versus investigation (new) difference.

I think both lines have their advantages and unique points. I cannot say which line is best, because I may like one thing in the New line, but wish I had access to something in the Old line, or vice versa.

>>49871419
I'm not really into identity politics. I'm not offended by stereotypes or especially amused by them, but I'm also not into the idea of identity spectrums or sex change magick. It just seems superfluous to me.

But the idea of being a supernatural being hiding beneath the surface of normal society appeals to me more than fighting an agent of the end times, so I guess New/Chronicles would be my best bet.

Is the lore for Old/Classic more extensive than New/Chronicles, though?

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>>49871419
Every time I see that image it annoys me.
I lost the original, so I can't keep posting it, and beyond the fact that someone took the GTA cover I made for new World of Darkness and just slapped "Classic" on it...
Every cover there is from a nWoD/CofD sourcebook. None of it is classic WoD.

>If you're a triggered SJW, there are racial/ethnic/feminist social groups your character can identify with, that contain stereotypes that aren't "politically correct".
I've seen more anti-SJWs getting triggered over the fact that the 20th Anniversary Edition is too SJW for them. Other than "Ravnos exist", I've heard nothing bad about the representation or treatment of minority groups. In fact, during the lead up to DAV20, there were interviews where they talked about trying to do right by marginalized groups. In particular they wanted to focus on things like the Tzimisce and Sacha Vykos as a transgender character, Malkavia's baggage and treatment of mental illness as wacky and dangerous, and basically all of Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom.
oWoD has had plenty of social justice ideas like identity spectrums, sex change magicks, and the like. In fact, people bitched over this sidebar. People also bitched that the Ready Made Character book's Brujah was was a fat sassy drag queen with Appearance 5, as if that was somehow the most egregious statline of any of the characters in the book.
Meanwhile, it's wrong to act like Chronicles is nothing but gays and lesbians all over the place. The representation was really unnoticable during the 1e books, and despite how people act, no, a majority of the characters in the Chronicles of Darkness 2e books are not queer, and no, heterosexuality is not made out to be evil.

It's really disingenuous to make it out that WoD20 is somehow untainted by progressives and that SJWs should keep away lest they be triggered. In fact, it's outright ridiculous.

I wonder if is is the right place to ask but anyway.
I want to use roll20 to create a vtr 2 ed chronicle but so far I have a minor issue. How to increase amount of dots for attributes? It seems to be locked on 5 while Resilience and Vigor can easily set it beyond 5. Also, there are derived traits like health. Sheet does not consider disciplines when calculating them.

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>>49871548
>as if that was somehow the most egregious statline of any of the characters in the book.
By the way, this is what takes my money for most egregious statline in the book. The character (a Malkavian drug dealer stoner philosopher who was an educated black guy from the projects who never could escape from the thrill of crime and got embraced) also feels kind of like a racist stereotype, especially with the Fat Albert Gang looking artwork.

>>49871536
As I understand it, Old/Classic has an established plot. All Vampires are the sons and daughters of Cain, there are this many vampire clans and this that and the other. Werewolves, Mages and Demons all canonically share the same world. This doesn't mean you can't walk five feet without treading on one of their toes, just that the GM ought to be considering the presence of other supernaturals beyond "Well it's a Vampire game so there's only Vampires". I've not followed oWoD much as of late, but the world-plot was progressing along a doomsday clock to Gehenna, the end of the world. Quite what this entailed I'm not sure, but it helps set the tone for your games as this unseen clock slowly grinds to the eleventh hour.

Chronicles/New doesn't have an established plot. You can have Vampires, you don't have to. The rules are designed so that every different supernatural more or less can be featured or not featured entirely at the GMs discretion. As far as I've read, none of the books offer much in the way of concrete answers however, everything is pitched more as a question to prompt the GM and players to make their own answer. Where did Vampires come from? Well the book suggests it might have been Cain, it could be some ancient curse, Vampires could be the future of Humanity or something else entirely. If you want established lore, I'd advise to take a look at oWoD if that's what you're after. I believe there's an official update somewhere that updates the Vampire clans from oWoD to nWoD, I'm not sure if such a thing exists for the other lines however.

>>49871536
>I'm also not into the idea of identity spectrums or sex change magick. It just seems superfluous to me.
Understand that for a lot of people it's not superfluous. Also, that comes across like "I'm not into the idea of radio telescopes". I mean, whether you're into the idea of it or not, it's a thing.

>Is the lore for Old/Classic more extensive than New/Chronicles, though?
Yes and no. (I'm going to be referring to the 1991-2004 & 20th Anniversary stuff as "World of Darkness", and the 2004-present stuff as "Chronicles of Darkness")
World of Darkness had a very dense setting that was filled to the brim with evil shadowy organizations working together and against each other, playing games with humanity and working towards sinister purposes. It was all about the Vampire Illuminati and so forth. It has a Byzantine almost comic bookish setting where everything is crossreferenced (usually badly). It's got more *lore*, and is more worthy of the term "Lore" in the first place.

Chronicles on the other hand is all about your own personal setting. There's an existing setting, yes, but it's more like options. Everything is easy to change, and you're often given contradictory explanations for things. There's an entire corebook that's three separate options for what a sinister vampire conspiracy could actually be (and later sourcebooks give others). The book gives you suggestions for how to use them separately or how to mix and match them. There's almost two levels of lore. The first is the surface level, where you only have what the individual write ups present. "Here's this group and here's their history".
Then there's the stuff you can start to understand if you piece together the writer's references and implications (which often contradict). For instance the Roman Vampire book having a group of Hunters that use blood magic and the Hunter book showing a modern anti-vampire terrorist group using the same blood magic.

>>49871548
You might have me on Mage. I will freely admit that I do not know oWoD Mage much at all and hadn't been following M20's development. I just found out about those shitty sidebars, and am thankful it wasn't that pervasive in V20 and W20.

Back on post, Werewolf20 is the biggest "culprit", with ethnic tribes and so-called "incorrect" portrayals of Native Americans, to the point that when I've played in public games in the pacific northwest, they have outright banned the use of the Uktena and Wendigo tribes (but the Fianna were a-okay) and they asked that people roleplay Bone Gnawers and Silent Striders with sensitivity, because of the perceived negative stereotyping of the poor and gypsies (but radfem Black Furies are a-okay).

Then again, I don't see how you could SJW-friendly WtA without fundamentally destroying the game, so maybe they just didn't try that hard.

And I agree with the picture. Sorry. :(

>>49871681
I'm not saying it's not a thing, just not a thing that concerns me when it comes to role-playing games. The presence or absence of gender identity mechanics wouldn't influence which version of WoD I get into. If it's there, okay, if it's not, okay.

>>49871675
It sounds as if I'd like a combination of the two - the established lore of Old/Classic, but the atmosphere of New/Chronicles. I like the idea of being an average member of an occult world and I'm less interested in doomsday scenarios, but I like being able to make use of established lore.

>>49871731
You agree with what picture? Your post's image is deleted.

>Then again, I don't see how you could SJW-friendly WtA without fundamentally destroying the game, so maybe they just didn't try that hard.
The Fianna don't embody noble savage mystical Injun traits. The Black Furies aren't really even RadFems. For fucks sake they accept transgender people.
Apocalypse is probably a bigger offender than Vampire in terms of cultural appropriation in a pop culture-y Peter Pan Injun way, but it's also the gameline about neopagans, feminists, hippies, and other minority groups rising up to destroy the evil corporations who pollute not because it's more profitable but because pollution is literally their goal. The One World Of Darkness trailer unironically uses the phrase "you raped our mother".

Nevermind that Tribebook: Children of Gaia exists, and is something that even I, admitted SJW and person who cares about things but is unwilling to go out into the wider world, would call out as Virtue Signalling.

>>49871800
Chronicles is what you want, then. It's not necessarily as expansive and defined as World in terms of lore, but there's still a ton of lore.
More than enough for this thread to argue over what is or isn't "canon" and implied. But it's also a setting where one gameline has radically different versions of the supernatural types, and encourages you to use those options if you'd rather not use Vampire: the Requiem for your Hunter: The Vigil game.

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>>49871681
>Understand that for a lot of people it's not superfluous. Whether you're into the idea of it or not, it's a thing.
It's a thing that does not need to be included in the books. It is only useful if it contributes to the setting.

>GENDER IDENTITY AND DEMONS
I kind of agreed with DaveB's stance when he possted here in defense of this sidebar. It's not preachy. It's not shoving it down your throat. And it really does a good job, for me, of highlighting the fact that Demons are /not human/ and do not fit into our human conceptions. Without preaching.

>GENDER AND PREGNANCY
This is a half and half. One half contains genuinely useful information. Well, as useful as knowing you can be a male, transform into a female, and roleplay getting pregnant should be. But you don't need to shove social theories (with poor evidence open to interpretation) about genderfluids in the book. Especially in these new 2E books where writers are constantly bitching about "muh wordcounts". You could've fit a few useful words in the space of that sidebar, and tucked the "mechanical" information under the gift.

>ROLEPLAYING THE OTHER / GENDER IDENTITY
>>49871548
This is a good 25/75. 25% useful information, 75% Social Studies lecture. All this sidebar needed to be was "Mages have always bent preconceptions" because that does contain some useful mythological information that kind of sets the stage. The rest is bullshit material you could get during a Liberal Arts course at college. I'm buying a fucking fantasy roleplay book, not "21st Century Sexual Identities as told by a undergrad in Women's Studies"

>PRONOUN USEAGE
This was one of the most egregious and flagrant fuckups in the SJW sidebars. Not only does it not contribute anything to the sourcebook itself, it shoves a "matter of fact" opinionated viewpoint down your thoat. With a shitty tongue-in-cheek remark like "if you find gender presentation jarring in a HORROR SETTING OF MURDER then you're a fucking shitlord".

>>49871834
>You agree with what picture? Your post's image is deleted.
The Grand Theft Auto cover, I accidentally posted an image.

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>>49871843
You forgot the Mage 2e's one.
It's meh. But then again with so much creative freedom in characters, they really couldn't say much more.

>>49871843
>It's a thing that does not need to be included in the books. It is only useful if it contributes to the setting.
Says you.
I'm sorry, but if you get triggered by the Mummy Sidebar, I don't care. Because, yeah, if you find non-normative gender presentation jarring in a setting of horror and murder and weird ancient monsters? Yeah, that kind of is something you should question. Calling it an opinionated viewpoint that nonbinary people exist is ridiculous. Acting like there's poor evidence for nonbinary gender is ridiculous.

>I'm buying a fucking fantasy roleplay book, not [Social Studies lecture]
Then you bought the wrong fucking book. I'm pretty sure Phil things magick is real and that fringe philosophy is the way to perform it.

You honestly seem like the kind of person who complains that gay things are shoved down your throat, but you have no problem with the rampant heterosexuality society shoves down my throat, because "that's just normal".
People like you are why there's a need for these sidebars you hate so much in the first place, because you're so against these type of things being present.

>>49871854
You agree with what?
It's a dumb thing where someone slapped "Classic" onto a bunch of nWoD covers.
Or was the "sorry :(" a "sorry people did that to your image" and not a "I'm sorry that I agree with the people who did that"? It was ambiguous.

It was an
>a "sorry people did that to your image"
I apologize for not being very clear

>>49871935
Oh, you mean you agree ABOUT the image, not you agree WITH the image

>>49869167
can't find it, but it roughly equates to 1 success every 3 dice if the difficulty is 7 or higher.

>>49871926
>I'm sorry, but if you get triggered by the Mummy Sidebar, I don't care.
I wasn't triggered by it because I didn't read Mummy :^) because I don't know which sidebar you're talking about.

>If you find non-normative gender presentation jarring in a setting of horror and murder and weird ancient monsters?
I find it jarring because it is out of place. I would find a sidebar called "The Benefits of Vegetarianism" jarring in a book called 'How to Cook Meat'. However, to continue this metaphor, I would not mind a sidebar on "how to prepare vegetables to compliment a meat course" in that book, because that might be useful information.

>Calling it an opinionated viewpoint that nonbinary people exist is ridiculous. Acting like there's poor evidence for nonbinary gender is ridiculous.
You can argue about genderfluidity and nonbinary genders all you want, but it is not mainstream or even scientifically accepted. If you think it is, you're welcome to provide scholary articles proving otherwise. But good luck.

>People like you are why there's a need for these sidebars you hate so much in the first place, because you're so against these type of things being present.
I'm against social lectures being presented in a book I bought for fantasy roleplay, yes. However, if you didn't fucking kneejerk on your face at my post, you'll find that I did agree with some of the content of the sidebars.

I don't give a shit about sexuality material in the book if it relates to the fucking book. Hell, I would have loved to have had a sidebar on whether male-on-male werewolf buttsex was a sin against Harmony in nWoD Werewolf. There was an entire Mage legacy dedicated to having a male and female persona that you presented. Stuff like that doesn't bother me.

Even 2E's Identity Politics sidebar in >>49871918 is tastefully done. But I believe we have DaveB and his ability to include this kind of material in a RELEVANT MANNER.

>tfw can't decide if you're gonna waste a dollar donating to the Scion campaign out of nostalgia for the old edition or save yourself the money because you like literally none of the changes and probably won't enjoy the actual product

Are the people who go "kek triggered perhaps?" /tg/ newcomers or veterans who show their true colors? I know that /tg/ has always been a apolotical, conservative leaning board, so what happened?

>>49869167
There was also a chart that compared the # Success by 10 again, 9 again, 8 again, rote, and dice pool.

>>49869167
http://archive.is/0uwAh#selection-1375.1-1375.2

I think you can just google the colored line graph one. This is the one I have trouble finding.

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>>49872060
>because I didn't read Mummy :^)
I mean the sidebar from Mortal Remains about the Mummy.

>I find it jarring because it is out of place
If you find progressive ideology--or even just subcultures--out of place in a White Wolf/Onyx Path book, you clearly haven't been paying attention to their entire oeuvre.
>or even scientifically accepted
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

You're agreeing with the content in a condescending way, and kneejerking at the need for it because you feel mentioning such things is meaningless "unless it expands the setting", because you honestly can't understand why a book might feel the need to make an aside to be explicit about how both the setting and developer feel about the existence and representation of people who are outside of the mainstream. I understand why you feel that way, but I disagree with you due to the way that such an attitude of "it doesn't belong" ends up de facto becoming "only the majority should be represented."
Arguments like "it doesn't add to the setting" ultimately just support the status quo.

All of the sidebars have been as tasteful as such things can be--and I actually prefer how Paizo does it, and OPP does elsewhere, so it's not like I'm saying sidebars like this are perfect or anything--but you read into them as if they're calling you a shitlord if you don't fellate the gay agenda, or whatever.

>>49872106
/tg/ has always attracted more liberal progressive posters than other boards. It's also unfortunately always been home to some of the worst stereotypes if insular neckbeards hating anyone they perceive as being unpure. I remember having arguments like these before SJW was even a buzzword that existed. Usually those involved people spamming guro. Also, "/tg/-transgender" meant there were camwhore crossdressers and lots of trap and futanari doujins posted.

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>>49871548
But was it really that inclusive? It felt like when there was a trans identity person mentioned ANYWHERE in M20 it was like they were a third gender. Brucato literally (and by-the-by, I mean that in the "you can read it yourself" sense of the word, not some weazel-word synonym for "figuratively") writes that the title of Priest or Priestess isn't restricted by gender. He could have just left it there, but the bloated fuck is obviously paid by the character, so he continues with "...be they male, female or trans." Coz trans people, they apparently give up being one gender to be neither.

In between belting the reader over the head with every obscure subculture Brucato ever heard of, there *are* characters and concepts that aren't explicitly white and North American, but they feel forced and difficult, like a Roman Catholic priest trying to seem "street" and "with it", smacking of white guilt and insincerity.

M20, V20, fuck the lot of them - overpriced shit with rules still broken and obsequious hand-wringing over what sheltered douchebags they were two fucking decades ago, when they could have just retconned the offensive stuff and made it cool. Mage, for example - the Wu-Keng were a blatant demonization (pun) of Trans people, swept under the carpet for M20 as an embarassing foot note. Wouldn't it have been better, more inclusive, to keep them and just give them a different spiritual patron? You know, NOT a Demon? Or a focus that doesn't involve being raised to see cross-dressing and Infernalism as a package deal?

If I'm going to be jury-rigging the goddamn system anyway, then I'm going to spend my coin on the books I enjoy remembering, with the art I loved. Not oxygen-starved bullshit like pic related.

>>49872312
Well, you could put serious thought, consideration and research into respectful representation of minorities in your game... Or you could change all references to the "Sons of Ether" to "Society of Ether" and call triumph for progress.

>>49872312
>not some weazel-word synonym for "figuratively"
Weasel word synonym? You mean "the more common connotation of the word"? Literally has been used figuratively for like 200 years. It's been used figuratively for literally as long as it's been a word (and I mean that literally, not figuratively).

>He could have just left it there, but the bloated fuck is obviously paid by the character, so he continues with "...be they male, female or trans." Coz trans people, they apparently give up being one gender to be neither.
That's not the reading I get from that at all. It's separating transgender people as not [necessarily] being male or female, but that's also a subtle way of acknowledging they exist (like the term "lesbian" is acknowledgement that not all gay people are male).

>If I'm going to be jury-rigging the goddamn system anyway, then I'm going to spend my coin on the books I enjoy remembering, with the art I loved. Not oxygen-starved bullshit like pic related.
You honestly sound whiny. Especially since at the time those books were regarded by most the same way as what you're bitching about now. I mean, you can argue that M20 reads like White Guilt and all the cultures feeling like a Roman Catholic priest trying to seem "with it", but that is most definitely a thing that exist in the originals. Know at least they've got Wikipedia and non-white/straight/cis fans communicating with them more than ever before instead of relying completely on pop culture.

>>49872356
Like, I'm not going to go to bat for it too much, since Mage is the line I know the least about, but the 20th Edition lines seem to have by and large done a hell of a lot more than just "we'll give them a less gender specific name and pat ourselves on the back".

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>>49872270
First, let's address your image. Intersectionality is only a social theory, one that I disagree with. You are begging the question by assuming that logic is true, as well. It also severely lacks in proper scholary support.

Second, your article is not a scholarly article. It is a blogpost written by an English major interpreting the results of medical studies performed by other people.

-

>because you honestly can't understand why a book might feel the need to make an aside to be explicit about how both the setting and developer feel
Then why doesn't every single written work do this? Why do other works of fiction, art, or expression not include a disclaimer on the subject?

I can understand why an author would make an aside about how the developer feels. It is a soapbox, and literature being distributed to a number of people. And that is what I have an issue with.

>I understand why you feel that way, but I disagree with you due to the way that such an attitude of "it doesn't belong" ends up de facto becoming "only the majority should be represented."
No, my de facto argument is that "only the mage/vampire/werewolf should be represented [in a book about mage/vampire/werewolf]."

See: picture related. That is a good sidebar. D&D did a perfect job on this. Dear God, I'm agreeing with themarysue.com! How astonishing!

If you want to argue in favor of the fluidity of gender. Great. Awesome. Please do so in the context of Mage, or Life magic, or Egyptian culture for Mummies, or whatever the book I happen to be reading is about. But if I want to read a generalized platform on gender identity (which that mage chunk of text is, save for the word "mage" used twice and "magick" used once), I'm a wikipedia article away from that.

>but you read into them as if they're calling you a shitlord if you don't fellate the gay agenda
You seem to be mischaracterizing me (again) as if I have a problem with all topics of sexuality. Please stop. You're triggering me. :^)

>>49872476
>arguing with aspel
might as well be watering a plant

>>49872476
>First, let's address your image. Intersectionality is only a social theory, one that I disagree with. You are begging the question by assuming that logic is true, as well. It also severely lacks in proper scholary support.
I don't even know how to begin to address the problems with this. Do you think that academic theories are like the colloquial kind of "just a guess" sort of theories? Why do you feel intersectionality is something to disagree with? In what way does it lack scholarly support? Do you actually know what intersectionality is?

>Second, your article is not a scholarly article.
You're right, it's an article about several scholarly studies and their findings. I could also have linked to either of the APAs on the subject. I'm sure regardless of what I link, it won't matter to you, you'll just say it's not good enough.

Every single book isn't a roleplaying game.

>D&D did a perfect job on this.
No it didn't. Frankly, it feels too "safe". And people still bitched about it.
I mean, you're essentially bitching that the book doesn't do things THAT IT DOES.

>You seem to be mischaracterizing me (again) as if I have a problem with all topics of sexuality.
No, I'm referencing your disengenuous paraphrasing
>"if you find gender presentation jarring in a HORROR SETTING OF MURDER then you're a fucking shitlord".

Who is angriest, a death raging werwolf, a frenzied vampire, or a tormented Frankenstein

>>49872460
>You mean "the more common connotation of the word"?
No, I mean "a triumph for ignorance". Literally means literally. Figuratively means figuratively. I remind you that you are on the internet, sir, where a small misunderstanding over a choice of word can lead to grown adults screaming and hurling feces. Use these terms as I do, and we will understand each other.

>That's not the reading I get from that at all. It's separating transgender people as not [necessarily] being male or female, but that's also a subtle way of acknowledging they exist...
Huh. I didn't see it that way. Still, the problem with such gestures is that you have an ever increasing list of delineations and a moving set of goal posts.

I remember when I marched for simply, "Gay rights", feeling that it covered my precarious bisexuality as well. Then it was "gays and lesbians", and that seemed fair... as long as we were included. Then we realised the Trans people were in the same boat as us, even if they weren't in the same cabin - it was about fighting for civil rights, after all. Then we learnt about another tribe, and another.... Now we're at the point where I'm supporting LGBTTIQA rights and being told, to MAH FACE, I have no right to be Bisexual because being "Bi", or two directional, it's blatantly prejudicial to Trans people and everyone that lives in indistinct gender areas. At this point I'm just going to give up and fuck whatever gets me going.

>>49872595
who is aspel? are they efamous?

>>49872312
You could also not be a raging autist.

This thread is too triggering

Bring me my crayons and blankets

>>49872638
in wodg threads they're famous for postinglike they know stuff they don't and constantly asking about themselves
in other corners of the internet they're just a member of the pedo community

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>>49872638
tumblr reject whom decided one that he is a proud independent woman who don't need no CIS het white male in HIS /wod/ and has been shitting up everything for months, before that years by playing pedo bait underage characters with rape backstories and blogging about it here.

>>49872626
>At this point I'm just going to give up and fuck whatever gets me going.

Congratulations you 50% uncucked yourself.

>>49872626
>Literally means literally.
Are you unfamiliar with the concept of figurative language? Like, just... at all? You do understand that the word literally can be used figuratively, because human language is complex, and English is a language where idiomatic expressions are incredibly commonplace, right? There is no law of grammar that prevents people from using the word that means "not figurative" in a figurative manner.

Normal functioning people don't take every word used by the people they're talking to as if it were 100% objective fact.

As for the rest of your post, I feel like you're either being intentionally ignorant of social issues or making mountains out of molehills. If you're marching in pride parades, you really should be cognizant of the issues you're marching for. It's also pretty silly to say that the gay rights movement "realized trans people were in the same boat", when it was transgender people who kicked off the gay rights movement with the Stonewall riots, and were hastily shoved to the back of the bus for the more presentable cisnormative white men.

>>49872638
Infamous in these threads for being more progressive than others and therefore wrong.
Also, for knowing the material and proving people wrong only to have them still argue that I don't read the books when I can cite chapter and verse more often than not.

>>49872659
>>49872665
oh thank god, for a minute i thought they might actually be a OPP writer

>>49872460
>You honestly sound whiny. Especially since at the time those books were regarded by most the same way as what you're bitching about now.

First, did you just say I have no right to criticise about a book I paid money for?

Second, did you just say I have no right to complain on /tg/? On 4chan? This 4chan? Where grown men weep over re-releases of collectible Lego? Where the death threats Games Workshop receive originate from? Where adults with a functional critical mind champion Donald Trump without a hint of satire?

Oh, and third - WoD: Gypsies was not accused of being fuelled by White Guilt, my learned friend; none of those early books were. If you'd deigned to read them, you'd know that they were entirely influenced by pop-culture references, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly. Those "recommended reading" bits they used to have in the Intro section? 5 bucks says that's the reading/viewing, total, done by the writers on the project. They weren't scholars, they were stylists, so they went with what they knew. They knew a lot of cinema.....

>Thread is good, head to bed
>Wake up
>Everyone is arguing about identity politics a-fucking-gain

Come on, people, we were doing so well.

I wonder is Hunter 2e will bring back The Code as the Hunter version of the five questions. How did Mortal Remains do it?

>>49872476
dude, give up. Its not worth it. Who cares, its a fucking /tg/ thread.

>>49872717
>Aspel
>Actually OPP

Not even Onyx Path is that retarded.


...Then again they have Hill Jr. and Holden so I could be wrong.

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>>49872602
>I don't even know how to begin to address the problems with this.
Don't bother, because I don't know how to address the problems with your method of asserting opinions as unquestionable facts, and that's becoming more and more evident by your posts. I can quash this real quick: If you're unable to provide the proper foundations for your claims and theories, but expect me to take them at face value over the endless publications (so many, that they might be what is known as "common knowledge") to the contrary, you're an idiot. And you-- well, rather, anyone else can see the fundamental problems in an approach like that. The onus is on your to assert your claims, be it intersectionality, genderfluidity, or whatever other niche social issue you wish to champion. If you fail to do so, that is your (well, the entire social justice community's) problem.

>No it didn't. Frankly, it feels too "safe". And people still bitched about it.
What more do you want from that? "Safe"? It's a roleplaying book. Not a college essay on Gender Studies. Not a tumblr blog to platform from. What more do you want?

Oh, I know. You want non-binary genders, and other imaginary social labels to be addressed. You can do that plenty fine on your own. You don't need to demand the authors to waste space on that.

I think the above poster is right. Might as well be watering a plant at this point. You don't like that books aren't propaganda leaflets for your social issues.

>No, I'm referencing your disengenuous paraphrasing
If you cannot see the tone and inflection of that entire sidebar, then you're probably someone who writes in that sort of style on a regular basis (evidenced by your posts).

I'm sorry I wasted my time, I had assumed you were posting in good faith. Instead, you're pretty much like any other "champion of minority viewpoints", in that you're just an attention whore. Here's your (You). :^)

>>49872757
like, how did mortal remains handle integrity? They didn't, they just said "use this system instead of the other one". that's literally it.

>>49872769
The issue did stem from sidebar politics... it could be just as bad.

>>49872747
>First, did you just say I have no right to criticise about a book I paid money for?
Did you just say I can't criticize the way you're criticizing it?

>>49872757
Mortal Remains didn't do anything with it. I'm not sure how they'll do The Code, since Integrity is already pretty similar to it, and I can't think of a way to do The Code without a ranked ladder of Sins.

>>49872772
The way you talk about things you disagree with is childish and asinine.
You read the tone of that sidebar as calling you a shitlord. Maybe that's something you should consider.

>>49872840
its really not, because the issue came from a sidebar (which it could be argued they put it because they felt they had to) rather than some huge word-count on why one side of the argument is right and the other is wrong. Though, while it may not be bad, its not great.

>>49872713
>Are you unfamiliar with the concept of figurative language?
Not unfamiliar. I just think that here, in this chan, where the whole thread can devolve into ad hominem insults over the misapplication of the written word, there is a need for precision. In a thread that discusses published tabletop supplements, saying the phrase "this book literally says..." draws the natural implication that anyone can turn to page xx and read it themselves. Am I wrong?
> If you're marching in pride parades, you really should be cognizant of the issues you're marching for.
First off, pal, it's not like every non-hetero person has to go through a training course. I've met gay people outraged by the suggestion they be allowed to marry because they see it as losing their own relationship identity, for example. It's a broad rainbow.

Second, don't presume I live in America. This is an international board.

Where I live, there were no trans people. None. They fled. Along with most of the young gay people, lesbians... we didn't even know bi was an option, it was binary as fuck, you were either pure or you had to "go off to the mainland and commit Sin there". Lesbians were culturally forbidden but not legally, so they were here but closeted. Legally, a man could have the shit kicked out of him, even blatantly lynched, and the culprits would plead "gay panic" - the guy cracked onto me officer, I was just defending myself.

There was no Stonewall. No clubs. Just young men kicked to death in public parks.

Here, the marches started with gays. Then the lesbians joined, then all of us in between. Trans people are new here. Intersex have been here all along, but most of those poor souls don't even realise what was done to them until they hit puberty.

>>49872831

Oh, that's...underwhelming but expected for a quick patch job, I suppose.

>>49872907
>The way you talk about things you disagree with is childish and asinine.
The way you talk about things you believe in is childish and asinine.

I've got a mechanical question about Mage. In the rule section for creative thaumaturgy it says you must spend a point of mana for a spell to automatically succeed. Does that apply for withstand effects? For example could I cast "Know Spirit" spend a mana and not loose potency from the withstand from rank?

>>49872907
>Did you just say I can't criticize the way you're criticizing it?
No. Learn to read, it really helps on a text-filled image board. I asked if you're saying I have absolutely no right to criticize something I paid actual hard currency for. Money that could have gone to reward a decent game designer and not Satyros Brucato.

>>49872907
>You read the tone of that sidebar as calling you a shitlord. Maybe that's something you should consider.

it pretty much kinda did, the mortal remains one takes a very clear stance on the discussion, and while there isn't anything wrong with that stance specifically, it does imply that if you disagree, you're wrong. And even if that is true, the reasons these talks still happen is because we're not actually sure were the truth ends and the tumblr rantings begin. Chronicles has often taken a very neutral attitude towards such things (see the demon sidebar) which is fine and perfectly reasonable, it seems out of place if anything, this super strong stance. Its basically as if they wrote a sidebar on how republicans are wrong all the time, which would be a super bad idea.

Also, a make belief game book maybe isn't the best platform to have these discussion, neither is fucking 4chan, mind you, but oh well. Here we are.

>>49872934
Really? I could listen to him for hours.... *dreamy sigh*

>>49872918
yup, I'm sure 2e will do something better, well. Hopefully, anyway.

>>49872907
>Did you just say I can't criticize the way you're criticizing it?
>The way you talk about things you disagree with is childish and asinine.
In the same fucking post.

>>49873001
tumblrina logic. their own criticisms cannot apply to themselves. transfag should put a trip on so we can ignore him

>>49872915
But you're the one who devolves into ad hominem attacks, and it's generally pretty clear whether the word literally is being used literally or figuratively, due to the context in which it's used.

It's not about a training course, it's about the kind of experiences that you should reasonably have had. Stonewall and the American gay pride movement is what started the international civil rights movement.
Also, transgender people have existed wherever you live. I guarantee they aren't new.

>>49872934
I'm not the one going around derogating things by calling them "social studies lessons" and other anti-intellectual dismissive bullshit.

>>49872935
That means "the spell requires mana if it gives you automatic successes on mundane rolls", not that you can spend a point of Mana to make the spell automatically succeed. Potency is already automatic successes against Withstand.

>>49872955
Apparently my sarcasm was too sharp. Let me rephrase:
"You have a ~right~ to complain, but I'm going to point out how stupid you're being, as is my own ~right~"

>>49872963
It pretty much kinda didn't. It says "think about why you feel the way that you do". It does not tell you to feel bad or call you a shitlord. It implies that if you disagree, you haven't had experience with or exposure to those kind of ideas.

>we're not actually sure were the truth ends and the tumblr rantings begin. Chronicles has often taken a very neutral attitude towards such things (see the demon sidebar) which is fine and perfectly reasonable, it seems out of place if anything, this super strong stance.
What?
I don't know what that first part means, and Chronicles has taken a very clear and notable stance.
I also see no reason why a "make belief" game book isn't as reasonable a platform as any other to have those discussions. Art is always going to be informed by our politics and ideals and the real world.

>>49872963
I see it as an effort on the part of game designers to make everyone feel welcome. RPG's are a chance to slip into another skin for a few hours. Maybe Jacko "Shagger" McTestes, deep in his heart of hearts, doesn't want to play a slab of meat and sweat holding an axe. Maybe Shagger wants to be pretty. Maybe Shagger wants to experience feminine grace. These sideboxes are for Shagger, not for you. It isn't about anyone being "wrong". Come on, do it for Shagger.

>>49873026
>These sideboxes are for Shagger, not for you.
While your post has me in giggles, I'd disagree with this. It's more about the people who would tell Shagger he's not allowed to be pretty or play a trans character.

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Jesus christ. Its not enough for this aspel fag to shit up /codg/, zhe-kin-self has to shit up the discord as well. How pathetic do you have to be to need your role-playing game to hold your hand and every five pages have a sidebar say "yes sweetie, its ok if you want to suck cocks and we're sure it has nothing to do with your dad molesting you." God damn, just shut the fuck up already and play the fucking game.

>>49873067
The sidebar is actually telling YOU to grow up and stop getting your undies in a bunch about trans people.

>>49872935
No, it's not for automatic success on spellcasting. It's for automatic success on something else because of the spell.

For instance, the Time spell that makes you always go first, never fucking mind what anyone rolled for initiative. You don't roll the init roll, you just succeed. And because of it the spell costs Mana.

>>49873023
>It implies that if you disagree, you haven't had experience with or exposure to those kind of ideas.

>If you find a character's gender presentation jarring, but not the horrors of the world of darkness, that might be a thing worth taking a look at

No, it doesn't. It says that if you disagree you should reevaluate your values, WHY would it say that? why would someone need to rethink their values? Because they're WRONG ones. You don't say something like that to someone who doesn't know, you say someone like that who you think is incorrect.

Now. I will say that "shitlord' is an exaggeration, but the text still takes a stance, and sais that if you don't think along the same lines as we do, you are wrong

>These sideboxes are for Shagger, not for you. It isn't about anyone being "wrong".

While I respect shaggers beliefs, I think the mortal remains sidebar could have been done better. The demon one is a good example, it says "this is a thing that may or may not be relevant to you" it doesn't make a statement and it doesnt call someone out for thinking differently.

>>49873067
The good thing about discord is that you can ban mentally ill faggots from it.

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>>49873023
>transgender people aren't new
>ignoring the massive influx of kids that think trans is the new punk/goth/scene
Whatever transtrender. Fuck off.

>>49872984

I just wanna know whose part of the writing team, and what is in it.

...I also want to write for it really badly but there is no way it is not being written as we speak.

>>49873123
It really is the new hipster isn't it?

>>49873023
>But you're the one who devolves into ad hominem attacks,
Do I? Oh, thank you very much.

> and it's generally pretty clear whether the word literally is being used literally or figuratively, due to the context in which it's used.

One would think so. Then, when that person is challenged, they immediately insist they were using the exact other meaning. It leads to confusion and uncertainty, not to mention wasted bandwidth. I'm proposing clarity in the absence of assumption... why, how is that a bad thing?

>It's not about a training course, it's about the kind of experiences that you should reasonably have had.

So.... even though you're not me, don't know me, don't live where I live and know nothing of the local gay law reform struggles.... you're going to presume to tell me what I *should* have experienced here?

That is so interesting. You keep talking, I'm just going to listen. Honest.

> Stonewall and the American gay pride movement is what started the international civil rights movement.

Buddy, it may as well have been Buzz Aldrin starting a queer club on the fucking moon. It didn't make a dint here. What was won here was done here, not in New York.

>Also, transgender people have existed wherever you live. I guarantee they aren't new.

No. They haven't. Transvestites were concerned "gay by proxy" and were subject to harassment, bashings and a lack of police protection until they left the state. No-one dared approach their doctor to enquire about gender re-assignment, they just left. You're not too sharp on the uptake, are you?

>Apparently my sarcasm was too sharp.
Is that what we're calling it? I would have said you were being so deliberately obtuse that you came across as vague and confused.

> Let me rephrase:
>"You have a ~right~ to complain, but I'm going to point out how stupid you're being, as is my own ~right~"
The fact you even need to say something like that on 4Chan shows how fucking new you are around here.

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>>49873081
I could give a shit less about trans people. If they want to put transcharacters in, GREAT! Make all the NPCs trans, i dont give a fuck. But this need to put in an aside that says "this person is trans and you better fucking learn how to deal with it" is just insulting to the reader. You need to learn how to be a little more comfortable with yourself honey. Your need to play out your BDD with promethean is just as sad as 13 year old weenie boys that use this game as a power fantasy.

>>49873111
I'm sorry but if you get up in arms about nonbinary people in a game about being a monster (or monsterhunter as the case may be) that does horrible things, yes, your values are pretty much wrong. That sidebar does not, however, tell you that your values are wrong. It suggests that if such things as ancient and repeatedly reincarnated and bodyswapped demigods make you uncomfortable, you should think about why that would be.

>>49873123
>trans is the new punk/goth/scene
wut
Also, aren't punk and scene already pretty heavy on the whole "fuck gendernorms" thing?

>>49873158
You are the only one who seemed confuse by figurative language.

>It didn't make a dint here.
Are you just completely unfamiliar with globalism as well?
Although I'll admit that you being a foreigner explains your troubles with figurative language.

>>49873200
You certainly seem to give quite a bit of shit. So much shit that you feel the need to tell us all about how much shit you don't give. It's kind of insulting to the reader how you feel the need to put in these asides about how much you don't give a shit.

>>49873231
Holy shit, nobody's reading that.

>>49873249
>>49873231
oops

>>49873023
>other anti-intellectual dismissive bullshit.
The only thing anti-intellectual are your posts. Here are your key points.
>What I say is right and infallible because of my feelings.
>If you disagree, offer a counterargument, or dismiss my claims on reasonable grounds, you are wrong.

Dismissing claims and arguments because they are unsound is not "anti-intellectual dismissive bullshit." It's basic philosophy. Here, let me help you out.

"Transgenders are mentally ill faggots who need to go to conversion therapy and be cured of their condition."

"Here is an op-ed blogpost written by a psychologist citing medical sources:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120 "

"If you disagree with this, you are wrong. I don't care what you have to say, because you are wrong. If you deny the claims I make and that are presented in this article, you're being anti-intellectual and dismissive."

See how intellectually devoid your train of thought is?

>I also see no reason why a "make belief" game book isn't as reasonable a platform as any other to have those discussions. Art is always going to be informed by our politics and ideals and the real world.

"I also see no reason why soda cans and childrens' diapers aren't as resonable a platform as any other to have those discussions. Economics are always going to be informed by our politics and ideals and the real world." (But make sure to also insert my "argument" above in and see what you think.)

>"You have a ~right~ to complain, but I'm going to point out how stupid you're being, as is my own ~right~"
Pretty much the epitome of an asinine and childish comment. Which tells me you're not going to do any of this, stick your fingers in your ears, and scream lalalalala.

>>49873235
>You are the only one who seemed confuse by figurative language.
>>It didn't make a dint here.
>Are you just completely unfamiliar with globalism as well?
>Although I'll admit that you being a foreigner explains your troubles with figurative language.
Not him, but you're a condescending shitbag.

>>49873231
Calm down and take your estrogen, then learn how to format posts instead of just spamming shit.

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>>49873200
>(reasonable bit about giving readers warnings)
Eh, standard procedure. Wasn't there a disclaimer in Black Dog's "Montreal by Night" in case people found a sexual relationship between what appeared to be an 11 year old immortal loli and a creepy guy in shades confronting? Or genderswap Marilyn Manson extracting vitae anally with a strap-on?

>>49873231
>>49873256
What reasonable grounds? Citing a discredited psychologist isn't reasonable grounds. Conversion therapy is literally just torture.

> "I also see no reason why soda cans and childrens' diapers aren't as resonable a platform as any other to have those discussions. Economics are always going to be informed by our politics and ideals and the real world." (But make sure to also insert my "argument" above in and see what you think.)
Yeah, you sure showed me what a counterargument made on reasonable grounds looks like. "Cite someone professionals repeatedly disagree with, and say random shit that kind of looks like an analogy".

>>49873274
I'll admit to that. But this poster has been getting on my case about the same stupid shit for the last few days, and seems salty that I used the word literally wrong.

>>49873235
>I'm a pompous shithead
>>49873235
>watch me execute 4-way trolling simultaneously
>>49873235
>I have 20 more minutes before mom sends me to bed and I have rabbinical school in the morning

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>>49873235
Look, we're all very sorry you got raped and feel the need to express your inner turmoil in a very loud and exciting manner. Can we get back to talking about RPGs now?

>>49873313
you use most words wrong

>>49873313
He has a point about the word literally though. If you aren't using the word to mean the thing you say is the literal truth then it's wasted space in your post. If you use a word to mean the opposite of its primary definition then people have a right to complain that you are being unclear.

>>49873235
>I'm sorry but if you get up in arms about nonbinary people in a game about being a monster (or monsterhunter as the case may be) that does horrible things, yes, your values are pretty much wrong. That sidebar does not, however, tell you that your values are wrong. It suggests that if such things as ancient and repeatedly reincarnated and bodyswapped demigods make you uncomfortable, you should think about why that would be.

so you believe that if you dont agree with the sidebar, you're wrong, but the sidebar itself that states "reassess your values" give NO implication that those who disagree are incorrect?

>>49873313
>Yeah, you sure showed me what a counterargument made on reasonable grounds looks like.

any person with a functioning brain not junked up on hormones can understand that was a sarcastic reply

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>>49873313
>...seems salty that I used the word literally wrong.

HE ADMITS HIS SIN

>>49873340
>>49873067
Are you this guy?

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>>49873324
>I have rabbinical school in the morning
Kekd

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And this is why political entries in game books are retarded, because the people who do it just want a soapbox stand on and shit from their mouths.

If DaveB or any other writers are lurking in this aborted 1st ed spirit child of a thread, take a hint: stop doing it.

You drive away people who would pay for your books and play your game, in favor of an audience who doesn't play the game because they're too busy arguing and cannot pay for books because they're broke after paying for their titty skittles and dragon dildos.

Protip: if your condition is listed in a book about mental disorders, it is not normal, no matter how much you pretend it is

>>49873360
>it's wasted space in your post
It's primarily used for emphasis. I mean, I won't disagree that I should use it less (also "fucking"), but arguing that it should never be used figuratively is one of my many prescriptivist pet peeves.

>>49873368
I believe you're wrong, yes.
The sidebar doesn't say that, though. My personal beliefs about your beliefs have no bearing on the sidebar or what it says or its implications. The sidebar also doesn't say "reassess your values", it says that if something about a real world demographic makes you uncomfortable, you should think about why that is.

Substitute all the nonbinary stuff for a minority of your choice. Black people is a good go-to.

>>49873377
I'm using the word "wrong" there to denote how the poster feels, as my use of the word conforms both to the dictionary's denotation of what it means, as well as the colloquial usage of the word.

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>>49873380
Am I not allowed to post in the same thread twice, or do you want a fucking cookie for being able to pick me out of a crowd?

>>49873235
>>It didn't make a dint here.
>Are you just completely unfamiliar with globalism as well?

I'm going to make this as clear as I can. If you still can't understand, you're a moron.

My government didn't give two shits about what anyone else in the world had to say. It was illegal. When we pushed to make it legal, they deliberately conflated homosexuality with pedophilia to swing moderate politicians. You have no fucking idea how lucky you are. I spent my entire teenage fighting for this. What did you do, exactly? How many times did you get the shit kicked out of you? When have you ever stood up for something and put yourself really on the line, not just talked shit on a website?

>Although I'll admit that you being a foreigner explains your troubles with figurative language.
Okay, what's your excuse?

>>49873433
I was just checking that there weren't two arseholes like you to be honest. Not that there aren't enough arseholes in here.

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>>49873439
Nobody gives a shit internet tough GUY, this isn't your personal blog.

Honestly they should've fag dragged you so you wouldn't shit up a thread about werewolves and vampires.

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>>49873419
Only post worth heeding.

>>49873427
"if black characters make you uncomfortable but monsters don't, maybe you should think about looking at that"

ya, I'm pretty sure that sounds like "people who think like that are wrong"

>>49873376
>any person with a functioning brain not junked up on hormones can understand that was a sarcastic reply
The irony of your statement is that being fucked up on hormones is the natural state for your entire species. Have you SEEN a man in love? Or a woman lose her shit and punch a wall so hard she breaks a knuckle?

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>>49873452
The only gaping asshole is the transfag fighting for social justass on a 4chan nerd board

>>49873481
there's no irony

protip: if you have to take a pill to put chemicals in your brain, it is not a natural state

>>49873427
>It's primarily used for emphasis. I mean, I won't disagree that I should use it less (also "fucking"), but arguing that it should never be used figuratively is one of my many prescriptivist pet peeves.
Without the constant push for prescriptivism, we wouldn't be speaking the same language. I avoid speaking in my native Mancunian slang online because it's terrible for communication. Arguing for a word to mean its opposite makes communication harder than it has to be, using it for emphasis misleads.

>>49873483
He's the loudest arsehole, but pretty shitty yourself.

WEREWOLVES
VAMPIRES
LMAO

>>49873499
>natural
What's your point? You're on the fucking internet, natural is irrelevant.

>>49873419
>>49873468
>Implying people don't bitch when there isn't a sidebar
>Implying people are being driven away
Their most recent project is 1136% funded on Kickstarter.
Please stop acting like they're losing customers over their political views.

>>49873470
Good. You are wrong if you think like that.

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>>49873481
>>49873524
did you put 5 points in athletics, because your dodging skills are impeccable

>>49873527
So I am right, the sidebar DOES take a stance and say that people who disagree are wrong? you wanna take another swing before you start agreeing with me?

>You can be black in this game and if you have a problem with that what the fuck is wrong with you?

>*sigh* I've had it up to here with sanctimonious assholes shoving down their views down my throat in fantasy RPGs!

>>49873557
No, that's me telling you that your views are wrong.

>>49873527
>>49873527
You do understand why people do kickstarters right? It is because they don't have the revenue to do the project themselves, and do not want to risk their company in case of a failed launch.

Kickstarter provides an no-risk, all-reward for the company producing a product, so long as they can advertise and generate interest.

I mean, Scion had some fundamentally shitty flaws, no wonder they didn't want to risk their successful lines on a pet project.

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>>49873427
>I'm using the word "wrong" there to denote how the poster feels, as my use of the word conforms both to the dictionary's denotation of what it means, as well as the colloquial usage of the word.
The sentence?
>...seems salty that I used the word literally wrong.

Which in this case, as the word "literally" is not stated in inverted commas, cannot be taken as implied and must be taken in a literal context. This leads to us to analyse the sentence as lacking in coherent structure - a more appropriate sentence would have been, "the Anon *appears* salty that I used the word 'literally' *inappropriately*." But then you didn't say that, your sentence quite clearly admits that you used the word incorrectly. Oops.


Oh well. You were wrong. You admit it. Move along.

For a native English speaker, you type like Donald Trump.

>>49873527
>>49873579
Why are his views wrong?

No, YOUR views are wrong.

Pick one. or both.

>>49873546
Not the same guy.

>>49873527
>Their most recent project is 1136% funded on Kickstarter.

So was Exalted 3e, far more. It was only 3 years late and scrapped half the promised things people backed.

People will back anything as long as its coated in enough sugar.

>>49873592
headmates arent different people, tumblrina

>>49873083
Thanks Dave.

>>49873458
Oh I'm sowwy, did widdle Biwwy not get to talk about da scawwy werewolves and wampires?

If you want to steer the conversation, just launch a sentence that doesn't reek of buttfrustration.

>>49873604
That's a pretty desperate argument. Too embarassed to just stop posting? You know you're anonymous right?

>>49873609
Was that really Dave though?

>>49873628
About as desperate as the tranny trying to validate their failed live choices.

>>49873603

Yeah, the key to a good KS is good networking and keeping the hype train rolling, among other things. How funded something is isn't really a sign of anything except how many people are interested.

>>49873499
>protip: if you have to take a pill to put chemicals in your brain, it is not a natural state

I agree. And yet, we have individuals in society who are told that they are not in a natural state, and need to take pills to put chemicals in their brain. If you agree with giving mentally ill people drugs to keep them sane - on the basis that "sane" is natural and keeps them from killing themselves or people around them - how do you justify your position on other pills? What gives you the right to decide what states are natural, what pills are right?

Would the 'remote control' spell be enough to turn off a moving car?

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>>49871644

>>49873630
:-D

>>49873582
Actually, that's not at all how or why Onyx Path does kickstarters. They've primarily got the book complete. The work is done and people want to be paid for it. There's a reason they don't do Kickstarters for everything.
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, though. Clearly people like them, regardless of how SJW the books are. In fact, maybe...! Maybe being SJW is good for business?

>>49873589
You know, since this whole argument is about you not being able to read my words as anything but literal and me telling you not to do that, maybe you should try not reading my words as literal? It was sarcasm, not an admission of ~guilt~.

>>49873603
People also *wanted* Exalted 3e. "It didn't come out on time and they handled it badly" means nothing. If that clusterfuck didn't kill the company's good will (and they've expended quite a bit of effort showing they learned from their mistakes), I don't think a few sidebars about trans people is going to do it.

The demographic that appreciates sidebars like that? The demographic that >>49873419 claims is just
>an audience who doesn't play the game because they're too busy arguing and cannot pay for books because they're broke after paying for their titty skittles and dragon dildos.
seems to be shelling out a whole lot of money.
(then again, he also doesn't realize what the DSM-5 is, or what it says about gender dysphoria, and makes the "normal=good/right" argument)

>>49873648
>How funded something is isn't really a sign of anything except how many people are interested.
Yes. So it's a good thing my argument is "clearly people are interested despite the fact that you're saying no one is interested"

>>49873649
It is the same right that you use to claim what social theories and opinions are right and wrong. AKA: No right whatsoever.

>If you agree with giving mentally ill people drugs to keep them sane
Did you just assume my position, shitlord?

>>49873630

I know for a fact that it is. You can trust me, his close personal friend Mark Rein•Hagen!

Say, you folks like RPGs? How bout RPGs with cards????

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>>49873483
>I miss moot :`( I miss when this chan was just angry white virgin boys trolling Oprah
Shhh. It's okay little buddy. All things have their time. Those glory days are behind you.

>>49873579
except I have not stated my views. I have been arguing that certain sidebars about gender identity were poorly implemented and badly written, I have been arguing that a sidebar should not take a strong political stance on an issue that is still being discussed, please see my response to shaggers to get a better picture on how I believe it should be implemented. You asked me to

>Substitute all the nonbinary stuff for a minority of your choice. Black people is a good go-to.

so I did, and if I make those changes to the text I have issue with, it reads

"... Then again, the World of Darkness if ull of murder, monsters, and terrifying things. After a while, we get used to those things, and they stop being jarring. Which is to say, many things a person might find jarring. If you find a character BEING BLACK jarring, but not the horrors of the World of Darkness, that might be a thing worth taking a look at"

The changes I made were put in all caps, does that sound like a statement of "if you disagree, you probably have never had any experience with that kind of thing" or "if you disagree, you are wrong"

>>49873665
>If that clusterfuck didn't kill the company's good will (and they've expended quite a bit of effort showing they learned from their mistakes)

itt things that never happened.

>>49873665

Don't drag me into your clusterfuck, I just wanted to talk about Kickstarters.

>>49873668
>Implying anybody on /tg/ plays games instead of shitposting frog memes on a chinese image board.

>>49873688

Hey, I can do an RPG about that! And it'll have SO MANY CARDS!!!!!!!!

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>>49873557
>I have lost track of whom I argue with

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>>49873665
>Maybe being SJW is good for business?

>tfw your vampire players are gonna manipulate local NRA and #BLM members into committing an attack on a Sabbat freehold building

I feel a strange sense of pride

Please stop making fun of my sidebars.

>>49873682

I mean, they did learn to never let the Exalted team touch a CofD game. That's...something?

>>49873666
>Did you just assume my position, shitlord?
Different anon, but your position can be assumed from the needlessly combative, personal tone of your writing.
>iz 4chan
That is not an excuse, and if I need to explain why, then you probably shouldn't be posting on this site.

>>49873677
>I have been arguing that a sidebar should not take a strong political stance on an issue that is still being discussed
I disagree. And the issue is being "discussed" in the same way that climate change is being discussed. That is, everyone sensible and informed agrees that it's a thing that exists, and a whole bunch of uninformed people want to say that it isn't.

Also, if you find a character being [X where X is a real world demographic] jarring, then, yes, you should probably stop thinking that way.

>>49873718
>Saying "maybe being SJW is good for business?" is bait
>Posts a bait image of a big box office hit criticized/praised for being SJW
Man, this thread has devolved into some crazy shit.

>>49873709

These are all me:

>>49872963
>>49873111
>>49873368
>>49873470
>>49873557
>>49873677

>>49873730

Only when you stop making fun of mine.

>>49873665
>seems to be shelling out a whole lot of money.

Yes its totally because of that and not because of the RPG setting and system with 15 years of history behind it. Fucking delusional idiot.

>>49873665
>The work is done and people want to be paid for it.
So why don't they get paid for it through the traditional methods?

>There's a reason they don't do Kickstarters for everything.
Because other things stand a reasonable chance at selling.

Also, how the fuck did you get SJW into my post? I was criticizing Scion for being mechanically flawed. Stop projecting your boogeyman everywhere. I'm just talking about kickstarters.

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>>49873604
I don't think we see the same tumblr, pal. All I ever see is impregnation porn, amateur porn, naked women and black-and-white gifs of people fucking. Why do you follow all these "tumblrina" people if they piss you off so much? That's unhealthy. Here, look at the droid dick until you feel better.

>>49873742
if was a good movie, thats a good gif, people were praising it for being feminist NOT SJW, SJW is a negative term, not a positive one.

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>>49873742
>Posts a bait image of a big box office hit criticized/praised for being SJW

Yes thats why its a big box office hit and not the naked pregnant chicks, explosions, effects and psychos or the fact that its a Mad Max movie. Amazing.

>>49873718
It worked for OWoD in the 90s, when it openly was counterculture and included all of the things you are bitching about 20 years later.
None of this shit is new, except to you, and that is because you are either too young to know about it, or was too sheltered to see it.

>>49873757
I remember when tumblr was all about porn and silly gif recaptioning memes. I am personally fond of the A-cup titties feeds

Hey Dave, will there be more information on reach effects in the FAQ or in Signs of Sorcery? I'm still shaky on when a spell should require an additional reach (like the spider silk armor spell from a couple weeks ago)

Time to move on to a different subject of sodomy.

Tell me about your Changeling the lost stories, /CofD/

>>49873779
So being a SJW is a counterculture fad? Thank god.

>>49873642
Hardly failed if they're happy, now is it? People spend their lives pursuing happiness in ways we have trouble relating to every day. It doesn't change what they're doing, and how we feel about it doesn't change what it means to them.

Maybe, one day, when you grow up.... then you'll understand. Or, you won't, and you'll get a job hosting a talkback radio show. That's life.

>>49873746
WELL THEY SURE AS FUCK AREN'T LOST COSTUMERS

>"If the company keeps doing this, they'll lose costumers"
>"But here's evidence that they aren't losing customers because of their politics"
>"That's just because the game has 15 years of history"
>"???!!"
Yes, 15 years of history. And they don't seem to have lost customers due to their politics. The thing that I said to fucking start with. Literally.

>>49873757
>All I ever see is impregnation porn, amateur porn, naked women and black-and-white gifs of people fucking.
Links

>>49873770
People were praising it for being feminist.
People were criticizing it for being SJW.

>>49873791
>Being for social progress is counterculture
Unfortunately

>>49873791
>fad
>has existed in some form for the last...130 years or so
You would of called the women stumping for suffrage SJWs, anon, because the mindset is the same.

>>49873665
>You know, since this whole argument is about you not being able to read my words as anything but literal and me telling you not to do that, maybe you should try not reading my words as literal? It was sarcasm, not an admission of ~guilt~.

So you'd rather be permanently misunderstood than communicate clearly? Our of what, an indignant entitlement to ambiguity?

>>49873816
I only wish I could imprison trannies and force-feed them eggs until they shut the fuck up.

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This thread is terrible. Owod/nwod -threads have gone downhill with devilish haste. And all I want is to lurk and wittness people more clever than me post insight into this work of fiction, or people who have more interesting events in their life than what I have post about those events.
Atleast I can go play vtes and listen to sopor. Oh right no one is logged in and anna has lost his gloom.

>>49873666
I think you just negated your own argument. You also seem offended by any attempt to be understood. I have seen this behaviour before, in small toddlers.

>>49873742
> And the issue is being "discussed" in the same way that climate change is being discussed. That is, everyone sensible and informed agrees that it's a thing that exists, and a whole bunch of uninformed people want to say that it isn't.

do trans-people exist? yes, it is a real thing that has been happening since forever ago. Are their more than two genders? maybe, WE DONT KNOW. Until recently transpeople have been changing from man to woman or woman to man not anything else, the idea of more than two is a new idea, an idea that still needs to be DISCUSSED. But no, obviously anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong because only unintelligent, insensible and moronic people would disagree with YOU, paragon of wisdom that you are. Fuck this, fuck this thread, you're a bigot. you dont want discussion or conversation or even debate, you just want everyone to get on their knees and suck you off, fine. whatever.

hopefully by the time the next thread rolls around this shit will be resolved.

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>>49873779
>It worked for OWoD in the 90s, when it openly was counterculture and included all of the things you are bitching about 20 years later.

Rewriting history 101.

oWoD was extremely culture aware back then compared to Onyx Path which drank the koolaid hard. You're not going to see Onyx Path acknowledge that many alternate lifestyles such as transsexuality or deviant behaviour such as extreme sadism -CAN- be a result of trauma or mental illness, or that -MANY- women face unconquerable physical limitations compared to men which makes them unsuited for certain activities, or make warnings over feeding into self destructive mental disorders out of politeness.

And yet they still had strong chicks, gays, transexuals and the other tropes but they weren't delusional about it. And ironically most of what was written back then was way more realistic then now, especially the presentation of minorities and women.

But yeah it was tots the same as now eks dee, like right here in my Demon the Fallen book I can right now read how much a faggot you are.

>>49873813
>People were praising it for being feminist.
>People were criticizing it for being SJW.

ya, thats... thats what I said.

>>49873816
Yes because the right to vote is exactly the same as the right to self mutilate and engage in blatantly sexist and racist behaviour while maintaining a veneer of moral superiority. Drag the whole world through the shit to justify your autism why wont you.

>>49873846
>This thread is terrible. Owod/nwod -threads have gone downhill with devilish haste. And all I want is to lurk and wittness people more clever than me post insight into this work of fiction, or people who have more interesting events in their life than what I have post about those events.

Welcome to the new age baby, every website is tumblr.

>>49873846

It started off real well too, but people love arguing about the culture war more than they like games.

>>49873875
The price to pay for including culture war in their games.

>>49873875

And that's a fact you can take from me, Justin Achilli! We could just talk about my fool proof plan to make sure you act like a Vampire, but noooooooooooo

>>49873857
>You're not going to see Onyx Path acknowledge that many alternate lifestyles such as transsexuality or deviant behaviour such as extreme sadism -CAN- be a result of trauma or mental illness
a) it's been repeatedly shown that transsexuality or deviant behavior is rarely the result of trauma or mental illness.
b) Onyx Path already has done that thing you said they'd never do. Fuck, I even commented on that like two days ago. "This is the kind of thing people would say they'd never do". I wish I could remember what it was.

>make warnings over feeding into self destructive mental disorders out of politeness.
I'm sorry, but give it up. It has been repeatedly shown that you can't pray away the gay and that transitioning is the best treatment. You can't just conversion therapy yourself into a cisnormative straight person.

You've got rose tinted glasses for the past and myopia for the present.

>>49873873
You mean every website is /pol/, because that's the dominant voice in every one of these conversations.

>>49873857
>You're not going to see Onyx Path acknowledge that many alternate lifestyles such as transsexuality or deviant behaviour such as extreme sadism -CAN- be a result of trauma or mental illness, or that -MANY- women face unconquerable physical limitations compared to men which makes them unsuited for certain activities, or make warnings over feeding into self destructive mental disorders out of politeness.
You also wouldn't have seen the same from OWoD, because it actively promoted such things as adding variance and dark edge to characters (see the different Vampire Paths), with no convenient sidebars discussing real life ramifications that didn't impact the game in the slightest.
You are the one rewriting history, unless you want to start dropping screencaps where these things were done.
But you can't, because WW always acknowledged that shit like in the vein of "Monsters are not limited by mortal frailties".

>>49873884

That doesn't mean you actually have to fight it on a Japanese cartoon board. Seriously, can't you all just go shoot each other over it or something?

>>49873912
>b) Onyx Path already has done that thing you said they'd never do. Fuck, I even commented on that like two days ago. "This is the kind of thing people would say they'd never do". I wish I could remember what it was.

How convenient.

>I'm sorry, but give it up. It has been repeatedly shown that you can't pray away the gay and that transitioning is the best treatment. You can't just conversion therapy yourself into a cisnormative straight person.

What the fuck does that have anything to do with what I wrote you raging idiot?

>>49873912
>You mean every website is /pol/, because that's the dominant voice in every one of these conversations.
This.

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>>49873813
>>All I ever see is impregnation porn, amateur porn, naked women and black-and-white gifs of people fucking.
>Links

Totally OT, but whatever, I don't think I've ever seen a mod in these threads.
http://asianthroatfolder.tumblr.com/
http://vfertile.tumblr.com
http://impregnation-service.tumblr.com
http://saraiscurious.tumblr.com
http://redheadsruleworld2.tumblr.com

I'm serious, I never see any of the stuff you guys complain about. Sub to the right streams and you never will. It's like Anons deliberately sought out things to offend them...

>>49873865
>writes a false flag post
>completely misses the point

>>49873936
>What the fuck does that have anything to do with what I wrote you raging idiot?
Me making assumptions about what "make warnings over feeding into self destructive mental disorders out of politeness" means.

Also I missed this
> And ironically most of what was written back then was way more realistic then now, especially the presentation of minorities and women.
That's honestly laughable.

>>49873851
If my argument is negated, your argument is negated.

If your argument is accepted, my argument has to be accepted.

It's not childish. It's a play on fundamental logic. One might call it "wit". You will just call it childish because your mind is incapable of comprehending anything other than feeling statements.

>>49873838
You could always power down your device and join the real world.... oh wait, no life...

>>49873953
>a false flag post
What? Am I missing something?

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>it's an "off-topic culture wars debate" episode

>>49873984
Why can't hiroshima hire janitors that do their fucking jobs

>>49873857
>most of what was written back then was way more realistic then now, especially the presentation of minorities and women
Please, put a trip on so I know who to ignore now.
Claiming that oWoD, with it's outrageous presentation, was "more realistic"?
Now everyone knows you are baiting.

>>49873947
>I'm serious, I never see any of the stuff you guys complain about.
That's because you literally have to go out of your way to find things to cherrypick. r/TumblrInAction--the subreddit that really caught onto the "let's make fun of progressives" fad right at the best part--has even had guides for how best to find crazy people to show off. At first they made the argument that they were just showing off people who made feminism look bad, but they dropped the act pretty quickly and now it's just "haha, SJWs are literally all insane".

People don't see these things because they have tumblrs or go to tumblr themselves. They see it because other people dig around for it.

Most of what gets posted on r/TiA is either out of context, misunderstood, the rantings of angry teens, or just people trolling to intentionally get picked up by places like that.
(The fact that the "squirrelkin" blog is so obvious and yet people still believe it makes me lose faith in humanity more than the existence of actual Otherkin)

>>49873865
You have a very strange idea of what Trans identity is. Mansplain to us some more...

>now that's sarcasm

>>49873984
Culture war is relevant to WoD.

>>49873998
He'd have to sell the site to that cancer drug guy.

>>49873977
Yes, that you are highlighting a comparison to suffrage, that wasn't made, and ignoring the comparison of the types that scream SJW in response to social paradigm changes.
You deliberately false flagged, dare I say, like a SJW, rather than confront the point being made.

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>>49873922
Goes on for pages on the practicality of being a lady knight and how to pull it off believable (and not just waving it off with women = men, its just a game bro)

Jokes on you I DO actually and lately read oWoD books so I know what I'm talking about, almost all books had stuff that you imbeciles would rage out of and shitpost on OPP forums over how -ist it is while disregarding the actual shit being written or its reasonability, to the deterrent of an actually valid political and social understanding because it isn't furthering your addiction to indignation.

>>49873912
>You mean every website is /pol/, because that's the dominant voice in every one of these conversations.

Not boogeyman at all.

>>49874043
>you are
Nope. Not that person. I'm sure I've said that more in this thread than any other.

>>49873967
Your post. It's english. And yet, these words, in this sequence, make no sense. You call this "wit", yet I do not think it means what you believe it to mean.

Speak plainly, or not at all. You waste bandwidth on words of no consequence. This says a lot about who you are.

>>49874044
And Dark Eras starts with a note that if that's not a story people want to tell or be part of, you shouldn't force it.

>>49874057
Your post. It's english. And yet, these words, in this sequence, make no sense.

Speak plainly, or not at all. You waste bandwidth on words of no consequence. This says a lot about who you are.

>>49874051
That post was literally in response to one saying every website was tumblr. Are you just picking and choosing which one is 'bogeyman'?

>>49874044
>almost all books had stuff that you imbeciles would rage out of and shitpost on OPP forums over how -ist it is while disregarding the actual shit being written or its reasonability, to the deterrent of an actually valid political and social understanding because it isn't furthering your addiction to indignation.

You... just summarised every WoD general thread I've ever seen.

This is clearly a fanbase problem.

>>49874044
>uses Dark Age as an example, where it's an in-setting point that classic chivalry, with all it's negatives, is the norm
One thing is not the same as another.
You are conflating an issue that is a purposely represented foil in that setting to representing real life and WW's overarching attitude.
Even then, what you posted was an entire page about how being a woman should not be an impediment to being a warrior.

>>49873954
>That's honestly laughable.

Sure if you've never actually hung out with minorities or lived in families with women.

In OP writing, all minorities might as well be white and characters be either male or transsexual because there is no nuance or different, no femininity or any actual non-anglo cultural nuance to anything. Because everyone is equal and the same. Shit I was reading DtF the other day and it has a lengthy story about a black cheating preacher's son becoming the host to a demon and the pair interacting and discussing the nature of salvation and God while also dealing with racial strife in Hollywood. I don't see Onyx Path ever dealing with what creates insular, clannish societies or point out that the people in them tend to have less income and worse education then the privileged. Shit the only token effort I recall this instant is in VtR 2e some guy raging and murdering over being called "the n-word". Such cutting edge wit and nuance!

>>49874052
Then put on a trip if you are going to post responses as though you are OP.

>>49873661
Would Doom be an Obrimos with MInd?

>>49874014
Why don't you mansplain, you're equally qualified for it.

>>49874078
Same could be said of every RPG.

Push this thread to the bump limit and let it sink.

>>49874117
I'm not going to put on a trip to ask a fucking question. Your assumptions are your problem.

>>49874150

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>>49874113
This is what Martin Elricsson, Lead Storyteller and Brand Architect of White Wolf Productions has to say about old Wod vs. CoD. This comes with a trigger warning. Reader discretion is advised.

> I love CoD and find that is a much more playable game with a more vague and unsettling aesthetic than WoD ever had. Too bad it never sold for shit and that old players hated it. It lacked the epic scope and the punk passion of the classic WoD. Had it done even remotely as well as the classic WoD things would be very different.

https://imagonem.org/2016/02/15/white-wolfs-lead-storyteller-there-will-be-a-release-in-2016/

Everything about this arsehole screams "let's change the recipe for Coca Cola!!!"

>>49874169

>>49874197

>>49874173
He knows that the entire RPG industry changed, right?

>>49874101
The difference is that OP would never even considering writing something like being a women could possibly be an impediment to anything, whatsmore it would mainly feature women excelling and being accepted in the role with nary an eyelash being bat at them.

See also Dark Ages 20 which is closer to a D&D setting then a medieval one.

>>49874166
You weren't asking a question, you were missing the point.
Even if you weren't OP, you still warranted the same explanation, with the sad note attached that you were actually serious.
It says something about your thought process, and honestly, it engenders pity more than anything else.
>>49874113
>I don't see Onyx Path ever dealing with what creates insular, clannish societies
The entirety of Forsaken is exactly that, complete with the infighting.

>>49874221

>>49874113
>Sure if you've never actually hung out with minorities or lived in families with women.
I've done both. I'm literally part of some of the minorities that were written about in 90s White Wolf books. I have a friend with Roma heritage who will grind his teeth at the mention of Gypsies.

Your weird alternate reality means nothing to this reality.
> I don't see Onyx Path ever dealing with what creates insular, clannish societies or point out that the people in them tend to have less income and worse education then the privileged.
They do. And then people in these threads bitch, the same way people bitch that "Does Luke Cage have to be so political?"

>>49874143
Several RPGs unfortunately say the opposite. "This is the only way to play and if that's not a story you want to tell well suck on it".
CthulhuTech 2e's preview seems to have gone a full 180 from that, but the first edition would have the writer telling you to stop playing the game if you didn't follow his metaplot of rape and railroading.

>>49874173
I'm pretty sure that CofD didn't actually "sell for shit". He's basically ignoring the industry crashing and going "well the golden ages were better, so we'll ignore any progress we've made and pander to nostalgia instead of what we've been doing for the last decade"

>>49874242
>delusional trannyfag thinks he knows better than the people making the fucking product

wonder why they havent hired him, he clearly knows all about the theme and sales and kickstarters

>>49874223
>It's an "Onyx Path books have only male villains and they act like minorities can do no wrong" post
I thought you said you read the books?

>>49874231
I asked why you called that post out as a false flag. I had no horse in your shitty culture war.

>>49874221
>>49874197
>>49874169
>rather than engage in on topic discussion, I'm going to force the thread to sage like it's /b/!
Dude, you are the actual cancer in this thread.

>>49874258
He's not the one making the product, though. He's coming in after the fact, and ignoring the market crash.

>>49874263
>my opinion is always right

transfaggotry is not on-topic

>>>/lgbt/

>>49874231
>The entirety of Forsaken is exactly that, complete with the infighting.

No, its not, because being Forsaken is not a socially limited thing. Nothing stops a rich person from becoming Forsaken and Forsaken are inherently inclusive and social creatures that thrive in packs and tribes which form greater groups called protectorates. They're not like humans but they're fine with wolf-blooded further defusing the alienation.

>>49874276

>>49874173
He's going to be pretty fucking disappointed if he thinks the change in sales is because of the aesthetic.

>>49874289

>>49874276
No, but the way that real world social issues are portrayed in this game that purports to be about a supernatural infused reflection of our real world IS on topic

>>49874283
>the threat of literally freaking the fuck out and murdering people isn't socially limiting
The entire point of Harmony is to highlight the way that being Forsaken is socially limiting and tears you between two worlds.

>>49874260
>I asked why you called that post out as a false flag
If you knew what a false flag was, you should have been able to see why.
Even if you didn't, you were unable to see why the post was disingenuous, which speaks well of your mindset. At no point did I compare social movements, but the mindset of the people who opposed them.
You "have no horse", but your point of view is well spoken.

>>49874242
>I've done both. I'm literally part of some of the minorities that were written about in 90s White Wolf books. I have a friend with Roma heritage who will grind his teeth at the mention of Gypsies.

Yes tell me what a magical American based minority you are with gypsy friends, or how they're aggravated over a book based on an actual roma thing and legends.

>>49874258
Even the autist you're quoting knows better than the guy from White Wolf.

>>49874303
>>49874305

>>49874318
Technically they're superhuman, proof that the brain can over rule the body

>>49874276
Than talk about the game, instead, unless you don't know what
>on topic
actually means. Are you going to frogpost next?

>>49874263
>Dude
Did you just assume my fucking gender?

>>49874307
>the threat of literally freaking the fuck out and murdering people isn't socially limiting

Its not because sociopathy and anger control issues are a thing in real life as well.

>The entire point of Harmony is to highlight the way that being Forsaken is socially limiting and tears you between two worlds.

Both worlds in which werewolves can bond with and acclimate with people (as far as Pure and spirits are people for the spirit side), and the cutting edge of harmony is full of tribes, packs, lunes, wolf spirits and Luna.

>>49874320
>>49874337

>>49874312
I know what a false flag is because I go to /k/ where they call everything a false flag. Most people I see crying 'false flag' are idiots. I didn't see the post as such because I am fully capable of believing the people in this thread are retards which is a much simpler solution.

>>49874313
I honestly don't know how anyone could defend oWoD's portrayal of anyone not straight, white, heterosexual, or cisgender without the caveat of "for the time".
>>49874343
Have you even read these games?

>>49874354
They have genderfluids :^)

>>49874283
This is the sort of thing that depends a lot on local context; I included Dubai in The Pack's hunting ground write-ups as an example of how restrictions within a region's society can impact heavily on the formation of the Uratha society overlaying it.

As per usual, it's the sort of thing that would benefit from a much deeper examination with a lot more wordcount, but I could only work in broad strokes with the space I had.

>>49874361
No, genderfluids are what you use in sex robots.

>>49874360
Shut the fuck up

>>49874374
Are you telling me I can't be a fucking fuck robot?

Way to be a shitlord

>>49874374
are you saying that non-robotic sex workers are not allowed to use genderfluids?

chek ur privilege

Can we all just agree that the general tone of conversation has hit rock bottom, nobody is going to be convinced of anything and that we should talk about urban horror?

>>49874409
Nobody gives a fuck what you think. Get back in your box.

>>49874360
>I honestly don't know how anyone could defend oWoD's portrayal of anyone not straight, white, heterosexual, or cisgender without the caveat of "for the time".

Easily if you've actually read them and not just heard shit off SA or tumblr, and if you realize the disservice you do by making them literally the thing you hate so much.

>>49874283
>Forsaken are inherently inclusive and social
>major plot point in 1e Forsaken was how the Forsaken had a mass civil war based on a misunderstanding
>ignoring the incredibly hostile approach to anyone outside their small tribe and territory

>>49874415
No. If you look up, that's where you'll see rock bottom.

>>49874424
I have read them.

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I was out larping a vampire the last ~72hrs while I don't even want to know how many threads like this went on.
Well not really, I wasn't larping, but I know to dance might be a hard concept for some of you to get. I'll go sleep for a couple of days while I guess you lot continue to larp something or maybe even doublelarp. Who knows!

Is this larping?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0amajXhvw

>>49874430
>>major plot point in 1e Forsaken was how the Forsaken had a mass civil war based on a misunderstanding
>deciding whether or not to kill your father and taking sides on the issue is a "misunderstanding"