/osrg/ OSR General - Back in Time Edition

>>49844377
>You appeared in 1974 and played with Gary and Dave. Both of them will accept one suggestion about the rules and direction of the game you make. Which will it be?

Work on clarity. The more I get into D&D "scholarship" and read the way things were done and what seemed to be originally intended, the original game seemed to work perfectly for what it was supposed to do. Most of the fixes and nonsense that came later, most of the design decisions other games made later in response, all seem to be based under a misunderstanding of what the game was supposed to do and why things were designed the way they were.

Write the rules more clearly, and explain somewhere -why- things are the way they are.

>>49837831

These are awesome, would love to see more.

>>49844377
>You appeared in 1974 and played with Gary and Dave...

Hire Jennell Jaquays, or more generally hire better map makers.

Unrelated, but how is "guisarmes" pronounced??

>>49844736
I've always pronounced it gizz-arm, and online dictionaries seem to agree with me--not that I put a lot of faith in them for something like this; they'll often have strange and conflicting pronunciations for uncommon niche like this. Of course the pronunciation of distinctly foreign words is always a bit weird because you're not pronouncing the "right" way, but in some native approximation that's pretty arbitrary. And for common words, frequent usage regularizes that pronunciation, but with something like guisarme, that's clearly not the case.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/guisarme
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Guisarme

Is there something like an online reference of B/X spells?

>>49844885
And then there's shit like cuirass and, to a lesser degree, vambrace where the recommended pronunciation is so stilted that it would quickly be schwa'd out if it were in common usage.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cuirass?pronunciation&lang=en_us&dir=c&file=cuiras01
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/vambrace

Saying KWEER-əss is so much more natural and easy than saying kweer-ASS that I'd suggest that the latter pronunciation is wrong for our language (and should be adapted in the way you adapt foreign words). And saying VAM-briss is easier than vam-BRACE, especially when talking casually about it. Saying "This is a vam-BRACE" sounds fine, but "The sword blow clanged harmlessly off the VAM-briss that encircled his arm" flows a lot better.

I think that my World of the Lost campaign is winding down and I'm interested in running some AD&D modules. How well does Labyrinth Lord Advanced strap onto LotFP? Am I better off just running straight LotFP?

>>49845070
Raggi had a suggestion for this

>"If using LotFP characters with 1e/OSRIC modules, since those are usually more combat-heavy I would make sure the LotFP characters are one level higher than what the module recommends. For example, if an OSRIC module states it's for adventurers levels 4 - 7, I'd make sure the LotFP group is level 5 - 8"

>>49844928
wizardawn.and-mag.com/tool_llb_spells.php

This resource in general is a fucking fire.

Is there any process or guidelines you guys use for designing dungeons? I feel like I'm stuck in a never-ending-cycle of drawing out my map, getting dissatisfied with parts of it and starting from scratch all over again, and at this point I'll never get anywhere.

Why don't people talk about C&C much?

>>49845225
Are you talking only about the structure of the dungeon, not the content? I'll admit, most of the time I just steal Dyson Logos's maps or generate something and change it to my liking. In general I try to make at least two possible entrances-exists, at least two levels even if there's not a lot of rooms in total, a few restricted optional areas, some hidden shortcuts for reaching those and between levels.

>>49845274
I think LotFP is just different enough to set it apart while still being accessible enough to folks used to other OSR games. Castles & Crusades is, I think, a bit too different and ends up being left out in cold because of that. Also, the use of the unified d20 mechanic may be a bit stigmatized by the OSR crowd, and the SIEGE engine in particular is its own kind of wonky. A footnote to all of this may be the overly-extensive weapon, armor and equipment lists, which may at least slightly incline a large section of the OSR crowd, which generally seems more enamored with Basic's streamlining /simplicity than AD&D expansiveness/clutter.

I really do like a lot of what C&C does, but I kind of feel like getting people to play it would be like convincing people to play a new game rather than just a slightly different version of the game they've been playing all along. And while I like the focus on attribute checks a lot, I'm not entirely satisfied with the SIEGE engine, both in how it scales by level (too rapidly for my taste) and in how it lies atop standard attribute bonus and kind of invalidates them in the process. Also, there's the issue of saving throws being difficult to make and never getting any easier, which is all kinds of stupid, but that's easily remedied by adding only half of a caster's level to his spell DCs.

>>49844736
I tend to use http://howjsay.com/pronunciation-of-guisarmes, but there's no actual entry for it, only "gisarme," and it sounds like jiss-ARM.

>>49844928
There is the >>49845137 but I don't love it. If there is another, or if someone makes one I'd be pretty excited.

>>49845350
Structure. Does it even really matter, I feel like I'm winding my self up about something that the players will never even care about.

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>>49844377
For Trove Guy and Clean Up Guy, I went through and bookmarked Fight On! 02 pretty thoroughly since I've been reading it, figured I should share.
http://www114.zippyshare.com/v/cZLpIM5G/file.html

I do recommend reading through it, there are some real great authors in here.

>>49845552
>guisarme
It's a French loanword. Whether or not you anglicise the pronunciation, which involces ignoring that the s should actually be sounded as z and is part of the second syllable not the first, it doesn't matter if it's spelt gi- or gui-, both of those sound the same, just old fashioned lack of consistent spelling, it has a hard g sound at the start, like garden, not a soft g like giant.

GEE-zarm would be far better than jiss-ARM which even has the stress on the wrong syllable.

Just got DCC. Anyone got any good level 0 adventure reccomendations?

>>49845805
Since I just saw the original post: guisarmes is pronounced the same as guisarme, the plural s is silent.

>>49845840
I haven't played DCC yet, still waiting on my book to get in through the mail.

I've heard good things about Sailors on the Starless Sea though.

>>49845750
Has anyone made a Complete Darkness Beneath pdf?

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>>49845552
How can you not love it? Comprehensive, fully customisable. I'm not sure what else you can ask for.

>>49845600
Structure in fact does matter anon, but solely in terms of playability. Don't sweat the details too much. What you need is decision points. At least two entrances with different logistical challenges (bandits set a camp right before the entrance, but you can probably enter through the old well up the hill and who knows what lurks down there), more than two paths, hidden shortcuts, like an exit that leads to the surface right from the 2nd dungeon level. I like having a few dead-ends to set up ambushes near, for both players and monsters. All of it encourages actual exploration and tactics.

>>49845840
Apart from the classic Sailors on the Starless Sea, try Frozen in Time. It's really fresh and gonzo, also a great campaign starter.

>>49845750
Noted!

>>49845956
That's a fucking awesome 3 dimensional map!

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What do you guys do when playing an old module with people you don't know very well (or maybe who you just don't trust)? Do you worry about people cheating by reading through the module (or lying that they're not already familiar with it when they actually are)? I suppose this sort of thing is always a concern, but it's especially so with modules that have been around for decades and are easily accessible.

>>49846435
You could always make some tweak to the stuff, so that you cannot trust what you read in the module to actually be what shows up in the game at the table.

Which system has the best fighter and why?

>>49845274
>C&C
1. It has a few problems which got quite the spotlight since it's one of the first and former biggest clones. (SIEGE, saves on higher levels)
2. It's old and OSR people seem to jump on to newer things every two years. See the hype with Black Hack and Beyond the Wall atm.
3. 5th edition was obviously inspired by C&C. Since WotC put a bit more coherence and thought in the mechanics and because 5th has a lot more players and publicity i imagine people jumped ship.

>>49846435
Ask before start if they have ever played the module, I doubt anyone would lie.

If you are really worried just change some descriptions, move some rooms around, move secrets to different rooms, but if someone is going to "cheat" how would you know they are cheating and would you prove it? Just go in and hope for the best anon

How do I show my players the play style of not trying to hack everything into pieces and actually looking for shit to steal? They've been completely disinterested in stuff like beautiful paintings, expensive looking furniture and stuff of similar nature. They're maybe okay with picking up some coins and gems. I don't wanna run a hack and slash.

Maybe I need to present more interesting problems to solve outside of combat? Maybe have a few interesting battles to peak their interest but make wandering monsters mostly deadly and mundane so that it becomes a grind to avoid?

>>49846657
I should note that I think one my primary problems has been that I've been to kind with the encounters. It's possible I should be more daring with what I throw at my players. I've been sending out mostly groups of 2-3 enemies, but maybe I should start rolling bigger dice. More enemies or tougher enemies, so that the only option is to fucking leg it or play dirty or both.

>>49846326
Dyson Logos = quality.

>>49846435
I have a guy in my group that always reads any module I run, if not before, then after. But he never cheated and he's a very reactive player. Except sometimes he gets the urge to do something he really liked after reading (like teleporting himself on another planet to be eaten by grass people in Tower of the Stargazer)

As long as people don’t actively spoil anything for others, let them enjoy it. Adventures are meant to be experienced course, but on the other hand the whole adventure path concept sells really well. And a well written evocative adventure really wires your imagination up, it doesn’t need to be amateur novelist’s moment of glory. So if my player wants, he can also experience it in addition to my shitty narrations.

Although now it’s offset by me not announcing the name of the module and having more of my own stuff.

>>49846657
Deadliness is a valuable lesson, but boredom isn't. Bored people just start to engage in various antics and silliness.

Now that you added >>49846727, 2-3 enemies are definitely way too soft for this style. Depends on the monsters of course. 3 kobolds is nothing, but 2 ghouls led by a wight?

Still, grind isn't the answer. Utilize reaction rolls. Introduce intelligent powerful monsters that are more likely to parley or be mildly curious about the party anyway. Create actual monster factions that are more interested to get some stuff done than just to kill anyone in sight. Try out a puzzle-type funhouse adventure without a lot of monsters, like mentioned Tower of the Stargazer or The Grinding Gear.

>>49846657
>>49846727

Are you using Reaction and Morale rules? That would help with most encounters no longer being fights and let the players do some role-playing.

I don't know what to tell you about them ignoring treasures, do they think its just not worth it to take out or are they just lazy? You could stop putting in coins/gems and leave the other treasures see if they take a hint.

>>49846518
Anyone?

>>49846518
Moldvay Basic fighters are weak sauce compared to their later Basic (weapon mastery) and AD&D peers (multiple attacks, weapon specialization). Beyond that, I'm not sure.

>>49846518
4e, the only good fighter there is :^)

For real though, DCC Warrior. Mighty Deed mechanic, Luck modifier as a simple weapon specialization and his own crit table make him both effective and flavorful.

>>49840113
Cool, sent you some art stuff

>>49846657
Repeatedly inform your characters that kills give small sums of XP, "if you're rolling initiative you already failed." Show some foe they struggled to fight with get insta-killed by some bigger foe, but bigger foe has a ton of loot. Tell them the worth of an pricey treasure item (and pretend you didn't mean to say it out loud). Show them a very poor but friendly creature/monster in an otherwise dangerous place (read dungeon) so they learn that talking and getting information is a valid method of interacting with the encounters.

withholding cash like >>49846846 said may sound like an extreme measure but i'm sure it would work pretty quickly. You can start by putting more recognizable treasures in front of them, like jewelry or goblets then push it further to stuff like small sculptures, a corpse with a property deed on it for them to use or sell.

On the topic of number of monsters, if they're unfamiliar with the style of play and are all 1st level, but they're not loosing a character per fight you're probably pulling punches. And that isn't the job of a referee.

>>49846518
Dungeon Crawl Classics Warrior and the D&D 5e Fighter Battle Master are both pretty fun because they can do cool tricks.

>>49844377
>Both of them will accept one suggestion about the rules and direction of the game you make.

It's not about the direction of the game itself, but don't trust Blumes.

>>49845956
I know Dyson makes good maps but I've recently felt like his maps give a feeling that the dungeon rooms are kind of dull and gray. I wonder what they would look like in color?

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Here's some ideas I scribbled down for some Pigman antagonists in Mutant Future. I tried to go for a deliberately tongue in cheek, 2000 A.D. style feel.

>>49846518
DCC warrior, by a landslide. I integrated his Mighty Deeds (albeit somewhat modified) into my own LotFP games.

>>49846518
If you use the OD&D fighting man with all of the advantages he's supposed to have from Chainmail, he's a damn beast.

Is there a website or app that'd help a player map out a dungeon?
I'm thinking to something similar to Etrian Odyssey's way of doing it.
I'd usually say to go for graph paper, but when playing online, it may be more useful to have a consistent way of doing it while sharing screenshots with others.

Where can I get a copy of Vornheim? Can't seem to find it in the trove.

>>49848422
It's there.
OSR Games > Lamentations of the Flame Princess > Adventures and Supplements > Vornheim

>>49848422
>>49848589
Thanks, sorry I missed it. Also does anyone have the picture with the LotFP houserules "everyone is an adventurer"? it provided homebrew rules for everyone having some skills, getting a bit better at fighting, and being able to learn a little magic.

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>>49848732

Not to enthused by the magic rules, but it's pretty cool overall.

>>49848415
Roll20 can cover stuff like that, no?

>>49848732
Btw, being registered on mega includes a search function.

>>49849029
The one modified by Anon is better.

>>49849137
It has drawing tools, but not tile-based drawing tools.
In addition, we stay away from it because it has a lot of things we just don't use and it clogs stuff up.

>>49849279
The only thing I can think of is Dungeon Painter + sharing screen on Skype or something.

>>49844498
You're beginning to understand True AD&D. Only by running the actual rules the way they are written rather than ignoring them and pretending things you come up with ex nihilo out of your ass can one truly play the game as intended.

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>>49845350
>>49846842
>>49847775
>Dyson
Does anyone have the Dyson Delves?

>>49849279
Holding the Shift key allows you to snap to grid, but sure fair point.

>>49849421
I'm pretty sure all of this stuff is free on his site. Not compiled in a nice single pdf of course.

>>49849144
Would you be kind enough to post it then?

>>49848415
http://www.davidwaltersdevelopment.com/tools/gridcart/

>>49849393
> True AD&D
Fucking pleb. Not restricting your game to OD&D. Get that "Advanced" shit out of my face.

>>49849881
Look at this pathetic faggot, he doesn't even play '73 D&D. So fucking pathetic, playing modern OD&D...it's not even what the developers intended. Disgusting. You have to play using the rules that a guy on the internet imagines must have existed prior to codification into rules.

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>>49849529
Not sure if it's what he meant, but here's this one, which is the same except it switches "learning" and "cunning", which makes more sense.

>>49850031
It adds +2 skill points to distribute.

>>49846518
DCC wins due to Mighty Deeds of Arms, but if we limit ourselves to more traditional OSR systems, then I'd say ACKS has the best Fighter, due to having the most potent version of Cleave I'm aware of

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>>49849966

>He doesn't play a Braunstein cobbled together from vague notes and grognard's memories

Step it up, man. I'm so hip I can barely see over my pelvis.

>>49848260

This guy knows what he's talking about. OD&D+Chainmail Fighting Man is one scary dude..

>>49850072
Oh, yeah. That too.

What does /osrg/ think of Blood & Treasure 2nd Edition? I really like the layout and way everything is explained, leaves enough to the imagination to still be truly OSR in my opinion.

>>49848260
>>49850196
Who here actually plays OD&D+Chainmail?

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>>49850178
pah - youngster

>>49850104
Can you explain what the cleave does?

>>49850295
Anyone? I'm thinking of running for a group of OSR newbies and I want their first experience to be a good one.

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>>49849966
Welcome to the game, here's your character sheet.

>>49851430
That's the Dungeon Master's sheet, sir.

>>49849393
Fuck off.

>>49848260
>OD&D fighting man with all of the advantages he's supposed to have from Chainmail
Which is what, exactly?

>>49845946
If someone can share with me a way to combine PDFs without losing quality I can do it.

>>49844377
>You appeared in 1974 and played with Gary and Dave. Both of them will accept one suggestion about the rules and direction of the game you make. Which will it be?
"You know, the fighting man is cool, but I don't think you should balance it based on your experiences as a DM for Rob Kuntz. Robilar and his player are outliers and should be ignored; Kuntz is some kind of savant at playing D&D."

>>49846518
OD&D LBB, 4e.

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>>49849966
>2016
>not playing 70s rules written based on games run by people who played D&D a couple of times and went home and made up something based on what they remembered

>>49853663
Make sure you read the endnotes, they're excellent.

(beware of the meatballs)

>>49853176

A number of things. At high levels, he fights as 8 men, can't be fooled by invisibility, can shoot an arrow that will drop a dragon out of the sky on a roll of 8 on 2d6, and causes enemy forces to check morale just by stepping into charge range.

Is the Wilderness Survival Guide any good for hexcrawling?

>>49853898

It pretty much inspired hexcrawling right into existence.

Has anyone ever actually used the magic system in Wonder & Wickedness? If so, then how well does it actually work in real play?

Someone sell me on OD&D. Why would I play that over any other OSR variant?

>>49854530
You want to play the original inspiration, maybe?

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>>49853723
>can shoot an arrow that will drop a dragon out of the sky on a roll of 8 on 2d6

They actually did it, the absolute madmen.

>>49850295
It's a fine work. I like to start with a lower baseline, like LotFP or S&W, but it should be good at transition to OSR for modern players.

>>49853249
I use Master PDF Editor for PDF manipulation. There's even a Winpleb version.

I'm looking for an editable file/resource that has all basic LotFP spells. Is there anything of the sort anywhere?

>>49850178
What if I *have* written a Napoleonic-era Braunstein complete with adhoc resolution methods for likely actions?

>tfw no players interested in anything even half as grognardy as a Braunstein

>>49854530
* Freedom -- LBB OD&D is so vague that you HAVE to make the game your own. Warlock, the Judges' Guild Ready Ref Sheets, even Greyhawk and Blackmoor are all some guy's development of OD&D matching the way his own brain worked.

* Rules -- they're not many, but some of the rules in LBB OD&D were omitted for later editions even though they're very good (my own favorite is the rules for how to distract pursuing monsters). Especially true if you don't use the alternative combat system -- as has already been mentioned ITT, Chainmail combat makes the Fighting-Man terrifying. It also handles weapons and armor well!

* Wargaming -- if you like miniature wargames, tying your roleplaying into large battles is 3000% easy with Chainmail. Hell, it was Dave Arneson's original idea for Blackmoor! The players just got distracted by the dungeon minigame that gave them a shot at improving their heroic army commanders.

* Roots -- find out what it was like to run D&D at the dawn of time. This is the game that captivated people's imaginations enough to make all that other shit happen: can you make that happen? Can you grab that brass ring?

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>>49850178
>he doesn't even play the 1st printing "Little Wars" Kriegspiel with authentic 1913 hollow cast toy soldiers

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>>49855913
>Little Wars
Faugh!

>not playing Von Reiswitz's Kriegspiel in preparation for uniting Germany under the glorious hand of Prussia

>>49854528
I use it in my LotFP 'World of the Lost' game. It works incredibly well and adds a similar dark, more 'olde' magic feel. I haven't had to use any of the catastrophes that come with it, but have certainly included some of the awesome magic items in the back.

>>49853618
lol

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>>49855913
>hollowcast
>not using flats

>>49857063
Wells didn't though, he used hollowcast Britains.

I'm new to OSR, but interested in getting into DCC. How should I go about it?

How is the Lankhmar material?

>>49844377
hate to ask (total noob here) but whats this for?
>Main trove:
aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWdhLm56LyNGITd4ZEdVRGFSIURBSGplbC0wN0VxX19LZEpBSFBnWHc=

>>49857803

nvm, figured it out

>>49853977
you what, mate

check yer timelines

>>49854530
It's the most solidly-playtested version of D&D ever to see print, and playtested by people who were actually trying to test the game and had the wargaming background to give it a good hard shake.

It's relatively simple and surprisingly elegant. Hell, it comes very close to only using the d20 and d6.

Just ignore the supplements for now, optionally read Chainmail or prepare to guess at stuff, and take a look at Judges Guild's First Fantasy Campaign published way back in the day - it's not all OD&D stuff, but it captures a lot of the early Blackmoor stuff that didn't quite get into published D&D, so it's a great example. It also provides details for the "investments" you can make to improve your holdings based on the original source material and campaigns for OD&D - that material didn't make it into OD&D, but it's well worth a look.

Oh, and if you do read the OD&D supplements, note that Gods, Demigods & Heroes is not supposed to have negative armour classes everywhere. IIRC there are like one or two actual negative ACs in the book, but the formatting and editing is a mess, so you get stuff like

AC: 5
AC - 5
AC: -5

where AC - 5 is actually meant to be positive 5, as demonstrated by all the creatures and deities with HP - 300 or whatever. Unfortunately, WotC fucked this up in the reprints. No, you fucking morons, a Naga was not meant to have an AC of -5, as you can clearly see when the Monster Manual came out and gave it an AC of 5. Same goes for a lot of the stuff in the book.

but yeah, OD&D. Good game. LBB only is the way to play. Don't use the Thief.

>>49858337
>Don't use the Thief.
This.

>>49858559
>>49858337
But. I like the thief.

Anything worthy of note come out in the OSR-world in the last couple months? I've been away for a while.

>>49844377
Can someone post their combat rules? I want to spice up my combat some more. Really liked the crossbow rules.

>>49858750
Crossbow rules?

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>>49858750

>>49858750
Ops, I meant.
>>49858782

>>49857663
Check out a "funnel adventure" and read the rulebook. Download the "The Crawler" app (http://purplesorcerer.com/crawler.php) and the reference sheets (http://peoplethemwithmonsters.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/dcc-rpg-reference-sheets-updated.html). Check out zines for further rules if you don't think there's enough.
Don't worry about getting the funky dice, only do that if you play more than once/twice and the rest of your group likes the game. Also don't worry if the size of the book is daunting, most of it are tables that can be taken care of with the app.
Sadly I don't know much about the Lankhmar stuff.

>>49858656
A lot of people seem to like Perdition.

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>>49858337
>you what, mate

Oops, I thought he said Outdoor Survival, as in the game by Avalon Hill that gave its map to the first D&D hexcrawls.

>>49858842
Thanks bud. Do you know anything about Purple Planet or Chained Coffin?

>>49858994
Purple Planet interests me because I like Barsoom, but I also am interested in a more traditional fantasy setting. Is there anything to support that or should I make it up as I go along?

>>49858994
I've only skimmed purple planet but I like it and I've heard good stuff about it. I'm planning on running it for my players at some point but I want the physical box set when I do it. I haven't read nor heard much about Chained Coffin however. The Tenfootpole guy seems to like it http://tenfootpole.org/ironspike/?p=2573

>>49858622
It fucks on the chance of other characters doing stuff due to niche protection.

Thieves thrive only if you gimp others.

Seriously, drop the thief. Do rogueish fighters (like Fafhrd) or wizards (like the Grey Mouser) if you must.

>>49859793
> It fucks on the chance of other characters doing stuff due to niche protection.

But.. it doesn't. Even Dragon Issue 1 talks about using other character's dexterity score as their equivalent of a base chance to pick locks.

Why would letting the thief get better at doing those tasks stop anyone else from doing them?

>>49859909

>Why

Bad DMs, really.

>>49859909
Thief gets magical abilities that nullify other characters' efforts in many common tasks. That class literally shits on the core D&D gameplay.

>>49860129
> Thief gets magical abilities that nullify other characters' efforts in many common tasks. That class literally shits on the core D&D gameplay.

Thief abilities in Greyhawk
> Open Locks
> Remove Traps
> Pickpocket
> Hide in Shadows
> Hear Noise

Magic users get
> Levitate
> Invisibility
> ESP
> Knock
> Fly
> Clairvoyance
> Clairaudience

Isn't "magical abilities that nullify common tasks" the literal description of the magic-user class?

>>49860291
> Open Locks
> Remove Traps
> Pickpocket
> Hide in Shadows
> Hear Noise

These are all tasks every adventurer should be able to perform. The spells the MU may acquire are highly specialist, and he pays dearly \ for them.

>>49860437
>should be able to

Who said they can't? The Thief didn't, he's just especially good at them.

>>49860437
> Open Locks
Dragon issue 1 lists Dexterity as the base % for anyone to pick a lock.

> Remove traps
Anyone can do this anyway by interacting with the narrative

> Pickpocket
I'd use the same rule as Open Locks for anyone trying to do this one, modified by situation/environment

> Hide in Shadows
Literally anyone can attempt to hide if there is something to hide in. Thieves are just better at it.

> Hear Noise
Everyone has this.

Are you arguing that clerics can't melee because fighters are better at melee?

>>49854528
Piggybacking onto this question, is there a similar system out there that does something interesting with Divine Magic?

>>49860827
>attributes used as the base % for non-thieves using thief skills

I kinda like this, actually. Maybe add ability bonuses and class level to it so they're not totally helpless.

>>49855913
>>49856014
H-have we been invaded by /hwg/?

>>49860863
>>attributes used as the base % for non-thieves using thief skills
I've always used the base % thief skills as a thing to be modified anyway. An easy lock might be +20%, etc. Otherwise, thief abilities for most of their career and then becoming auto-win by name level.

>>49860291
>>49860795
>>49860827
>>49860863
>>49860942
And that's how the concept of skills was born and slowly started to infest the game. This kills the D&D.

>>49861038
So what's your slippery-slope proof solution for non-thieves wanting to pick locks or sneak up on an enemy?

>>49860829
Sorta. DCC Cleric, obviously.

Last Gasp blog has pretty ingenious Mystic class, but it's a template meant to be tailored according to the specific gods, so you'll have to develop playable variants on your own.

Freebooters on the Frontier also has nice and freeform Test of Faith rules, it's fairly easy to adopt.

But no, haven't encountered any actual books that exclusively deal with divine stuff.

>>49846846
>>49846842
I'll definitely go ahead and introduce reaction rolls. It's something I've left out at the moment. I've only run 3 games so far, so def glad to get some feedback.

I'm thinking I'll try to distill some of this down into something simpler, like 3 easy to recognise factions (orcs, goblins and ratmen) and just coins and gems as treasure.

It's still an interesting encumbrance puzzle to get a big chest of coins out from a lair, so maybe that is enough straight forward to motivate my players.

I figured that the chance of them surviving 20 encounters was pretty low, so I set the xp for an encounter to 100 xp. I feel like I want to keep this, but then I should absolutely make every combat actually potentially deadly.

>>49861093
The old school way. Describe what your character is doing. How he tightens his robes around him to make sure that his weapons won'r rattle against his armor and how he holds his breath as he slowly but surely approaches the enemy with small, soft steps. How he carefully draws his dagger from his belt, crouches down and in a swift motion leaps forward, placing a hand over the goblin's mouth and attempting to slit his throat with one firm stroke from his knife.

Sure you could codify this action, standardize it and say "I do the thing I do every time because I'm supposedly good at that" and make a roll for it, but where's the fun in that?

>>49861284
So you will 100% always succeed at sneaking up on anyone as long as you describe it?

How do you handle locks?

>>49861284
They aren't mutually exclusive though. The oldschool way as you describe it is really open for narrative gotchas; didn't mention specifically checking for twigs? You snapped one and the goblin hears you! No matter how you try to cover your actions in the narrative something can always be found.

I say codifying according to situations, not actions. This gives you guidelines on how to handle common situations without new school 'restrictions'.

A good example is reaction rolls; it guides how encountered monsters react and then inspires roleplaying.

>>49861539
>So you will 100% always succeed at sneaking up on anyone as long as you describe it?
No, see >>49861576
A good narrative increases your odds on succeeding: you should convince the DM your action is likely to succeed, he'll handle the rulings.

>>49861539
>How do you handle locks?
The same way.

>>49861658
What's the point in having locks in a dungeon if the solution is "spend twenty seconds bullshitting how you move picks around?"

>>49861711
How is there a point in having any when you roll a d100 until you succeed, counting the turns you spend working on it? It's the same: you spend time in opening the lock while dangerous creatures might be near. You're taking a risk and may well be putting your friends in danger while you are fiddling about. It's just that I find '"I use my lockpicking skill" *roll*' less fun and exciting, that's all.

>>49861820
Codifying situations guy here.

But at the same time, don't you feel that there should be some sort of guideline on how to handle such things?

I agree with you that "I do x *roll*" is kinda meh. But at the same time I'd like to have similar actions judged in similar ways, and not be purely determined by the narrative.

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>>49861820
>How is there a point in having any when you roll a d100 until you succeed, counting the turns you spend working on it?

I think this is exactly the fundamental divide in RPGs. The former solution, rolling d100s for each lockpicking attempt that takes X minutes, stacks on top of additional systems like random encounters for an emergent outcome that isn't the result of any particular referee ruling or bias. The method you prefer prioritizes human judgement over the operation of the rules machine.

The outcome might be the same - the thief takes too long to pick the long and is discovered by goblins, but the method of arriving at that outcome is significantly different.

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Cover for the coming LotFP module. Broodmother Sky Fortress by Jeff Rients is coming out around the same time as this one too. Raggi wrote on G+ that they will (if everything goes right) be out before the new years.

>>49862307
>Broodmother Sky Fortress

The hope isn't lost.

>>49861958
To me, DM'ing is much like composing music: there's more to it than musical theory. Paul McCartney doesn't read music. Michael Jackson didn't. Even stronger: most musical theorists will never have a number 1 hit.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think that formalizing your rulings doesn't yield a recipe for a successful game. I don't wish to convince you, it's just my opinion and personal preference of gaming. Making opening that lock a worthwhile experience. Having people talking about it long after it was opened. No one will be talking about that time that you rolled d100 = 13 on that lock picking check, but how about that time when Ulfberth the Unsubtle chipped a brick from the wall, lifted it above his head and smashed the lock and part of the chest with it?

>>49862422
>No one will be talking about that time that you rolled d100 = 13 on that lock picking check
Sure they can - they might talk about the time that the thief failed his lockpicking check, called down the attention of a bunch of goblin guards who then blundered into the pit trap the thief decided to reset? Or to draw another classic example, the time the fighter on his last point of HP held the line against a rampaging ogre, making a heroic stand that let the party escape.

There's an extra layer of memorability that occurs when you realize the entire encounter was not somehow ordained by any one person's whim but by the particular order of the dice - that's why we use dice, after all (and even story-games use dice).

The other argument for formalizing rulings is that they allow players to make their choices in confidence - they have a similar reasonable understanding of what will likely result in success and what will result in failure. Sure, you could always preface the attempt with "is this likely to succeed", but this is taxing and interrupts the flow and pacing of a session.

I'm pretty shit at coming up with interesting mechanisms. My party also always looks for very unnecessary technical details in such things, it's a cultural thing somewhat. So often I resolve things with rolls, some bonuses depending on the general approach (it's discussed breafly) and leave narrative resolutions for complex things I bothered to came up with.

>>49862919
>breafly

Sorry.

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>>49856014
>not just conquering Germany without the toys
get with the program dork

>>49829596
>>49844377

Ultra last minute recruitment. I'm running a Stars Without Number oneshot on Roll20 right now. People were a no-show and trying to salvage the game. Session lasts for about 3 hours and there are premade character sheets for you to grab.

>GM or player?
GM
>Timezone/times available
Wednesday, October 19th at 7:30pm Eastern (UTC−4:00)
>Voice or Text?
Discord voice chat, Roll20 for rolling, etc.
>System/setting
Stars Without Number, in the /osrg/ discord server.
>Contact info
tipsta#3617 on Discord
>Additional info
This will be a one shot. Hook: You are part of a small team tasked with investigating an abandoned research facility to retrieve data stolen by an alien crew occupying the derelict structure.

>>49855245
What do you mean by a lower baseline?

49837831
49837847
49837857
49837871
49837885

Could the creator of these release the images and fonts they used to make these? I'd like to take a shot at making these myself.

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>>49866406
Well shit thread's gone. This is what I'm talking about.

>>49845946
There's also the problem that it's not actually finished yet. I don't think the next fight on will ever come out and I'm strongly cosidering reaching out to the people writing levels to see if they wanna finish it anyways. I don't have any clout in the publishing scene, but I love what has been made of that dungeon with a passion, and would be willing to get involved to make it work.

There is odd74.proboards for OD&D and there is dragonsfoot for AD&D. What is there for BD&D?

>>49866406
>>49866426
The text on the left looks like Caslon Antique to me. That or something very similar.

>>49866536
Dragonsfoot is for True AD&D, featuring the highest volume and quality of discussion about BD&D, OD&D, AD&D, and AD&D 2E.

>>49867067
Wait, so OD&D, BD&D, AD&D 1E and AD&D 2E are all considered to be "True AD&D"?

What are some good step-by-step guides on how to make a hexcrawl?

>>49868155
Stop feeding trolls.

>>49865623
Less classes, less various abilities.

>>49868195
>Bat in the Attic: How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox
Super-detailed and super-huge article.

>D&D with pornstars - Hexcrawls: Worldbuilding vs. Microlite vs. HexKit
>D&D with pornstars - More Hexenbracken + How The Hell Do You Run A Hexcrawl Anyway

Very useful advice about off-the-cuff hexcrawling. Also nice and short.

>The Alexandrian - Hexcrawl
Another involving article, details the structure of hexcrawl and every element the author came up with.

I'm thinking about making a d6 dice pool combat system for OD&D similar to Chainmail's troop type combat but a bit more granular and less rough on the edges. Has this already been made?

>>49849421
I'm pretty sure that's in the trove. Look under the zines? No, no, actually it's probably in the DM resources.

>>49864351
That sounds cool, have an exam so can't join sadly.

>>49868622
On a related note, what's a good way for me as a beginner DM to implement some city life and some wilderness travel in between dungeon crawls without it ending up too much? I just want some little mini game that makes it feel like they're actually spending time travelling, and that travelling is taxing on their resources.

I'm running LotFP. Would it be a good idea to make a roll vs the partys best Bushcraft skill, allowing them to sacrifice items to get bonuses to the skill check? And then have stuff happen (encounters, having to roleplay getting over some obstacle like a ledge) so that it feels like it really sucks having to walk?

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>>49844377
Help me /osrg/!
In two days i'm running a heist-themed weird fantasy game as a campaign header and I need interesting stuff to fill the lair of an eccentric thief/dealer, be it loot, traps, events or other interested parties.

>>49869995
You should also check out some of the basic hexcrawl resources, they have a lot of rules for resource expenditure during travel and the like that you can cannibalize. (And you don't necessarily have to use the hexes.) As for city life, there are two classic resources: on the one hand Vornheim, which is highly gonzo and entirely randomized, and on the other hand City-State of the Invincible Overlord, which is an entire city mapped out and described on the house-by-house level. (Not every house is detailed, of course, just shops, inns and other interesting spots.) It would be a huge asspain to make yourself, but it's a superlative resource when you can just download it.

>>49871099
You could check out The House of Rogat Demazien, which is a heist scenario for the home of an urban wizard but which should have a lot of stuff in your line as well.

Does anyone have the PDF for Ten Buried Blades? It's a Godbound adventure, recently came out.

>>49869995
>allowing them to sacrifice items to get bonuses to the skill check

Not sure what you mean here.
But yeah, resource management itself isn't enough to feel like they're actually travelling. I do have a few sort of minigames that go with it.

When they go hunting, I let them research the area and come up with interesting tactics of hunting creatures or suitable traps, that modifies their Bushcraft hunting roll based on the whoever does the hunting.

Getting lost is rare in my games, because it’s too much for work me to make it interesting everytime, but when they go deep into the wilderness they can get lost. Navigating is usually done by trying to find a landmark of suitable height and whatever navigating technique players can come up with, I run it very similar to the dungeon at this point: you hear this and that from this and that side, you see this and that, where do you go? Encounters and such per whatever method you're using. It’s fun but it’s better used sparingly.

Of course, a variety of encounter tables with stuff except wild animals and interesting situations that players can decide to interact or not interact with is your bread and butter.

Introducing actual landmarks and paths is also a splendid way of convey that travel feel: detectmagic blgspt.com/2014/04/pathcrawl.html

>>49871099
>Paintings that flow into one another each time you enter a room: black-and-white cubist abstraction gets fleshy colours and eyes from the portrait nearby, while the portrait gets all black and blocky. Each it time happens there's bit of blood spilled over the floor that quickly evaporates.

Aaand hope someone is more creative than me today. Check out The Cursed Chateau and The God That Crawls though, there's a shitton of the stuff you can use.

>>49872614
>Not sure what you mean here.
Not him, but I'm guessing that he means sacrificing rations, rope or whatever of a similar kind to increase the probability that the Bushcraft roll succeeds, and then if it fails have some sort of event or encounter like "you have the flu now" or "Jim fell into a hole", or even just the standard "30-300 goblins, 25% chance in lair". I mean, I guess in LotFP they'd be 30-300 gibbering penisheads, but you get the idea.

Is there a hex version of the overland map in the original (orange cover) B3? I've been looking and can't find one.

>>49868155
Of course. True AD&D encompasses all material printed by TSR for the Dungeons & Dragons game prior to summer of 2000. Only by embracing all systems and their rules can one overcome false editions that came later. We must never allow infighting to divide us again as it once did. We must stand united against WotC and their false editions.

Not sure why everyone insists this is some sort of troll. Since I've been spreading the gospel / good news, prices for True AD&D material have increased exponentially as people realize that only in its bosom will they find a non-ephemeral ruleset.

>>49874694
>True BD&D
Fixed that for you.

>>49875480
> True OD&D
Ftfy

>>49875686
Touché.

>>49874694
I gotta level with you, /osrg/, I don't even feel sure this is the same guy anymore.

Are there just a bunch of anons who amuse themselves with occasionally pretending to be True AD&D for yuks, now?

>>49875947
I'm pretty sure there are copycat trolls now. On the other hand, the meme seems to have evolved from one dude bitching about True AD&D to an entire shtick in which people chain-post one-upsmanship with progressively earlier iterations of the game.

...And as an aside, I'm now reading the LBBs for the first time, because I want to play OD&D.

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>>49875947
Come with me, and I will show you honor.

>>49875947
>>49876028
>Fake True AD&D
I don't know how to feel about this idea.

>>49876215
The only True AD&D is true, never false. Tupac is alive and well in True AD&D. True AD&D has rap magic because of Tupac.

>>49872739
>30-300 gibbering penisheads

Man, did Raggi go to my junior high school?

>>49876028
>because I want to play OD&D
Be very sure to also read Philotomy's musings.

>>49877870
>Man, did Raggi go to my junior high school?
Well, a guy who's visually indistinguishable from Raggi did, anyway.

>>49866536
>odd74.proboards
The registration is closed on their forums. How fucking dumb. I WANT TO ASK YOU QUESTIONS.

Bampus

>>49876256
I will crush Dungeon World like skull of dead orc.

>>49880566

It's not crunchy enough for that..

Need assistance in locating True AD&D material in PDF form. TSR had super secret Adventurer's Guild modules that they'd only send to certain stores. Why do I not have this Official Canon material? I require it for archival purposes and for scouring new spells / magical items for compendia / encyclopediae after the originals.

Of Varsks and Winter Witches
Vale of the Dragon Oracle
Menagerie
Final Exam
Marooned on Jakandor: Island of War
Leviathan's Deep
Fallen Archmage
Return of the Pick-Axe
Manxome Foe
Blood Feud
Pyramids of Brass
Folds in the Tapestry (false edition: Alternity)
Special Delivery
Ill Omens
Heart's Final Beat
A Second Chance
Throne of Huangdi (false edition: Marvel)
Salvage (false edition: Alternity)
Caravan
At Last, Ravens Bluff
Counterfeit Dreams
Downunder the Living City
Day of the Raven
Curse of Red Death
Dungeon of the Hark
Trouble With Derro
Beast Within
Trail of the Tylor
Avengers: Live Knee or Die! (false edition: Marvel)
Burn Pirates (false edition: Alternity)
False Prophesy
What In The World Is This?
Call of the Griffon
Birds of a Feather
Pillar of the Community
Greater of Two Evils
Spawn of Sable
Light Fantastic
Mission Brief 6106 SD XXXIV
Legacy of Venom
Pages of Doom (false edition: Marvel)
Interfall (false edition: Alt.)
Dangerous Alliances
A Spell of Bad Weather
Foolish Pride
Search for the Truth
Longest Night
Whistling In The Dark
Children of Solace
Hand of Justice
Displaced
Deepening Shadows
A Simple Errand
Project: Maelstrom
Mandolin Wind
Return of the Fire Witch
Hall of the Crimson King
A Funny Thing Happened on the Way...
Stag Falls Knights
Pyre Down Below
Crown of Salt
Emissaries
Farewell to the Flesh
Cult of the Swamp Lord
Smoke and Mirrors (false edition: Marvel)
End of Innocence (false edition: Alternity)
Amongst Fungus
Dragotha's Lair
Haunting of Silver Ruins
Needle in the Eye
Epitaph (false edition: Alternity)

https://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/periodicals/ag.html

https://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/periodicals/agindex.html

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So how about that Red & Pleasant Land, eh?
I've been planning on letting my players loose in it for some time. Has anyone run/played it? Anything interesting you picked up from playing or just reading?

>>49881539
My hardcover copy leaves glitter on everything

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>>49880919
Adventurer's Guild .pdf bump with a new map.

The Nightmare Lands of Ravenloft, post-Grand Conjunction (pre[?]-Grim Harvest)

>>49882673
>>49880919
Son of a bitch. See, look at this. 5 years after the compilation and publication of the Encyclopedia Magica and we get this in Series Eight, Dragotha's Lair module (released on WotC site). How can one possess true knowledge without all magical items?

Crown of Mortality

The crown of mortality appears as a gold band. It was forged by Keraptis specifically to keep Dragotha subdued. When properly utilized by a living creature within 20 feet of the dragon, the crown prevents the dragon from regenerating, and prevents the dragon from forming new necromantic links with living creatures. Unfortunately, the wearer becomes locked in time with the dragon, and can nevermore move from the position where the crown was donned. Furthermore, all living creatures must evacuate the area when the crown is put on within 10 rounds, lest the sacrifice of the wearer go for naught and new wearer be necessary. Once the crown is donned, the wearer perishes whenever Dragotha manages to forge a new necromantic link.

XP Value: 4,000 GP Value: 5,500

>>49844377
>>49844377
That main trove a magnet torrent link or something?

>>49882832
it's Base 64 code

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>>49866406
>>49866426

Yo. I used DwarvenAxeBB for the header and IM FELL Double Pica for the text. The stats are just an image capture of the players handbook, recolored.

I'm going to finish the rest of the adventurers eventually.

>>49883370
Cool. Wasn't sure. I've seen projects like this not get completed before, which really trigger my OCD, but if you're still doing it I'll leave it to you then.

>>49875686
True OD&D comes in a box. And a wargame book. But no supplements.

>>49875686
>True D&D
There.

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Working on muh hexcrawl using Welsh Piper's random generation method

>>49884817
I find that it gives too fragmented results. I used it too, but then ditched it in favor or designing the setting myself.

>>49884930
I'll probably go back and smooth it over once I have it randomly generated.

I started with Bat in the Attic's, but it was too much at once in my opinion.

Would it be too weird to have cleric magic in a Labyrinth Lord have nothing to do with the gods that are worshiped in a setting? I was thinking clerical magic in my setting would stem from something like Plato's "form of the good" which isn't really a willing entity in the slightest, and then have the gods be a variety of powerful monsters (or not even necessarily be all that powerful, depending on the god) that people worship either for the sake of their approval or just straight up material boons (such as the boon of not having your village stomped in by a pissed off god, for example), as well as ancestor spirits, straight up land worship, etc.

>>49885021
In my current OSR campaign, clerics and magic-users are powered by their belief in arcane rituals and artifacts handed down by (or stolen from) creatures from beyond the stars. Clerics are more secretive and Masonic-inspired, passing down forbidden knowledge. MU's are scholars and draw from experiments and research.

I've played with a lot of weird ideas, and as long as you give your players the following, they'll probably enjoy it;

1: Something to roleplay. If you take away huge, influential deities, you need to give them something to interact with in some fashion. Ask yourself how clerics would interact with Plato's ideals. Or, how they could interact with one another as an organized church.

2: Something thematic to base their character on, or to influence their character idea. Ask yourself how a layman would be changed, if he were indoctrinated into the clergy. Also ask for a few different methods that someone might enter into this organization.

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The first playtester of OD&D, Duane Jenkins, passed away this week. He was also a player in the Blackmoor campaign. RIP.

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/twincities/obituary.aspx?pid=182007335

>>49888872
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEUq6dbwEKk

>It was Duane Jenkins who introduced the campaign concept to role playing games. Instead of a game that was played in one session, his game allowed people to play the same persona over multiple game sessions.

>>49885021
Gods-on-the-map is the way I think of that approach, where the local Mount Olympus is actually on the hex map, and yes, there are some powerful assholes living on top of it. Are they "gods"? Well...

Clerical magic is separate from that, although they probably do have priests who cast clerical spells and all that. Doesn't mean the god (or their minions) is handing the spells out, although they may have a way of investing power in someone to make them a cleric.

>>49888872
Ah, cripes. Somebody needs to start recording the fuck out of these guys. I just hope Mornard survives to finish his book.

I want to replace the usual Elf/Dwarf/Halfling racial classes with some homebrewed stuff, but I'm afraid of going overboard. How many classes are too many in a dungeon-crawler sort of game?

>>49890585
"Too many" is when your NEW AND ORIGINAL class does something that other class can already do.

>>49890585
If you just replace them with an equal number of classes rather than add more, there clearly can't be any risk.

>>49889475
>Mornard
Does he post here?

>>49890585
Personally I think it depends a lot on how you do it. The classes that are available to choose from on a list and described in detail should be 2-8 IMO, but in practice you can have near-infinite classes in the sense that you just make a note that if a player wants to play something else, he can talk to you the referee and you'll sort out rules for that. Not putting the rules down also means that you can let the first guy function as a playtest: if the crocodile-man got too good a bite to start with, nerf it for the future, and so on. It also has the advantage that if something catches on and players keep wanting to play it, your campaign materials grow organically (instead of being something you hand down from on high). Just make sure everyone's on the same page about you having the absolute say over the class rules. It's fine for players to specify that they e.g. want to play a draconian with a breath weapon as its particular thing, but how powerful it is and how it improves as they level up is entirely your call and everyone needs to agree to abide by that -- if the player thinks it's unacceptably weak, he'll have to play something else, not whine about it.

>>49890947
If he does he's not telling. He used to post on Big Purp as "Old Geezer", but he got permabanned for having a personality.

He's notable because he played in both Greyhawk and Blackmoor while the games were running, and he also not only played in the original Tekumel campaign but was the guy who taught M.A.R. Barker to play D&D.

>>49853663
This is absolutely fascinating

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>>49853723
>A number of things. At high levels, he fights as 8 men, can't be fooled by invisibility, can shoot an arrow that will drop a dragon out of the sky on a roll of 8 on 2d6, and causes enemy forces to check morale just by stepping into charge range.

>>49891199
What kind of book is he writing? Does he have a website?

>>49892361
He's writing a book which, as I understand it, is just full of loose anecdotes about the creators', especially pre-publication, D&D games and how they ran the game. It's supposed to be called We Made Up Some Shit We Thought Would Be Fun.

Is there some sort of website I could check for all those Rob Kuntz stories?

I want to make a dungeon on my own, but just want to check some sort of short list of guidelines and beginner traps I could avoid.
Anything like that been made already?

File: dd4lotfp.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

Here's a thing I made.

Character build for Darkest Dungeon adventurers in LotFP.

I tried.

>>49893669
Some damn good work there, Anon! Can't wait to take it out for a spin once

Hey guys, any advice to someone new to running games on getting players that'd stick with you through a couple of failures until it starts working out?

>>49893669
This is really great, anon, thanks. Gave me ideas to build upon.

Clearly I am retarded, any one able to throw me a bone as to how to access the trove?
Thanks in advance.

Main trove:
aHR0cHM6Ly9tZWdhLm56LyNGITd4ZEdVRGFSIURBSGplbC0wN0VxX19LZEpBSFBnWHc=

>>49894097
First thing is probably running a game and setting that the players want to play in.

>>49894097
Run it for your good friends. First sessions are always a mess but it'll probably feel great anyway. If your friends are interested in the hobby, they'll give you time and will appreciate the work you're putting in.

>>49894191
It's in this thread.

File: dd4lotfp.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

>>49893669
>>49894172
>>49894079

Fixed some typos here.

>>49894211
That'd be optimal, but my friends are rather not into RPGs

>>49892911
Check out some stuff written by The Alexandrian. Also a fan of Goblin Punch's "Dungeon checklist".

Mostly, make it a place that is dangerous and has many things that are interesting but that players can ignore. ie a room with red walls where a closed treasure chest stands in front of what appears to be a statue of a dragon head with a big gaping jaw

>>49894489
Alright. Then just be upfront about your being an inexperienced DM. It's not a great sell, so have a good idea of how to present the game itself. If it's engaging in theory, people who aren't assholes (and you shouldn't play with assholes) will be okay with it.

>>49894489
Have they tried it before? If they have, do you know why they didn't like it? As long as you make it fun for them then they'll probably want to play with you.

>>49892911
>short list of guidelines and beginner traps
I think the biggest beginner guideline here is be very aware of your dungeon size vs. the purpose it serves. There's a huge temptation after reading a bunch of dungeon checklists to try and include everything and before you know it you have a sprawling megadungeon complex.

Exploration movement usually ranges from 60-120', so if your dungeon is mapped in 5 ft increments PCs will be "crawling" at 6-12 squares a dungeon turn.
.

>>49895820
>Exploration movement usually ranges from 60-120', so if your dungeon is mapped in 5 ft increments PCs will be "crawling" at 6-12 squares a dungeon turn.
You mean if it's mapped in (the old-school standard) 10' increments.

Besides that though, good advice.

Do you guys think a lot of setup and coherence in a dungeon is necessary for it to have a sense of wonder? Every guide to dungeon making suggests making it coherent at all costs, but that seems counter intuitive to having a sense of wonder, any tips on giving the game that feel without making it seem like a random funhouse?

>>49897389
I'd say try to at least make it seem like there's more too it than just being fun, but you don't and maybe even shouldn't go out of your way to explain everything. Keep it in the gray zone, make the players think that there's a lot behind the scenes but don't explain too much.

>>49897499

Red herrings and such? always hint at a greater being/coherence but never explain it? I'd go as far as to say I'd probably not like them to be able to piece it together if they tried, kinda like Eraserhead, but even that does have a meaning I guess

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anybody else back Driftwood Verses?

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>>49897389

"Dungeons must make sense" is a popular meme that affected D&D for decades, but it's got some solid arguments against it. The whole sensawunda thing for one, and then there's the fact that in the real world you'll find lots of weird, seemingly inexplicable bits that you have to dig up research in a library to have a hope of explaining why it's like that, because history accumulates, and sometimes odds and ends get left lying around long after their purpose is lost in time.
I think you should always be careful not to make your dungeon too pat and neatly explainable, because it tends to make it feel like a carefully made funhouse rather than a real environment.

Plus, the Dungeon as Mythic Underworld is kinda awesome.

>>49897522
I agree, it's best for creepiness and wonder if the players don't figure out everything. I personally think it's important that there is an internal logic, for the sake of making the players feel like there IS something that could be explained, but they won't be able to. That's better than if the players realize that everything going on has no explanation, because then they'll stop caring.

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I've decided that I want to run an old school RPG. My group just ended a game of 5e. What system do you think would be the easiest for a bunch of kids that have never played anything besides 5e to grasp?

>>49897765
That gif is amazing.
Anyway, The Black Hack is very easy to grasp, but it's also kind of shallow so it might not be your thing. LotFP manages to be a pretty simple yet effective system that's easy to modify. DCC is good for pure wacky dungeoncrawling and a higher level of crunch. ACKS is good if the players want to build castles and start ruling later in the game.

>>49853723
Washington confirmed for Chainmail Fighting Man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7iVsdRbhnc

>>49897765
Basic Fantasy Roleplaying Game is a great starting point as it's very simple and incorporates just enough stuff from later versions. There's also Labyrinth Lord Revised if you want a simple, direct port of Basic D&D without any of house-ruled bits other games add on. >>49897898 mentions very good games, but I wouldn't start anyone new to OSR stuff off on any of them.

Is classic traveller OSR?

>>49898078
Short answer no, long answer yes.

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>>49897765
Most of the retroclones based off Basic would work pretty well. I think Moldvay Basic (B/X) is a good place to go, since it's the original off of which more retroclones seem to be based (by far) than any other system. Maybe go with Labyrinth Lord's Advanced Edition Companion if you want more options and you're okay with more crunch. You can, of course, lift the good bits from various different OSR games, like Swords & Wizardry single-category saving throws, for instance.

>>49898078

Classic Traveller dude here. Nope. CT is old, and sort of old school, but it's nothing to do with the Old School Revival.

On the kind-of-OSRish side, you can publish stuff for it independently now thanks to the Cepheus engine, an OGL clone of Mongoose Traveller 1e, with some alteration for Classic compatibility.

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>>49898487
>good bits from various different OSR games
>single-category saving throws
Make a Save vs. Death Ray, anon.

About to take the plunge and buy a softcover copy of DCC and maybe Sunless Sea. What else should I get?

Hi, solo gamer here. One of the harder aspects of playing RPGs solo is fairly simulating artificial intelligence. Most creatures don't come with tactics sections attached to them and it's pretty easy to just make all you enemies do stupid shit in order to win a battle. On that note, I decided to take an idea off of MMORPGS and wondered if it could be possible to incorporate an "Aggro Mechanic" to a game.

Any idea?

>>49899558
>There are people on this earth who play RPGs alone

Do you need a hug, anon? I know I do.

>>49899557
Carnival of the Damned and Chained Coffin. Then upload the PDFs to the Trove since we're missing them.

>>49899628
I'm wanting to do a fairly typical conan-ish world, but it seems like a lot of the adventures are kind of quirky. Are there any that are just tame(-ish) fantasy settings?

It's so wonderful to get unselfish advice.

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>>49897389
>>49897640
I think it's important to look at the motivation for why dungeons should make sense - because this gives your players something to work with and plan around.

If the dungeon's layout changes according to your whims, distances aren't consistent, or monsters appear without rhyme or reason, it robs players of any real agency.

This is the crux of the "dungeons must make sense" argument. Mad non-Euclidean geometric wizard-did-it dungeons can be a fun romp, but if players have no good information then they their choices are essentially all shots in the dark. It's not about making sure your underworlds properly obey the laws of physics, but rather whether they are consistent, and consistently communicate their idea to the players.

On the other hand, a dungeon patterned after a setpiece gives players concrete specifics to plan around. A dwarven city that dug too greedily and too deep certainly provides an excellent setpiece that immediately communicates to the players that the deeper they go the deadlier it gets, for example. A set of barrow-mounds under the haunted moor is likely to contain undead, and PCs should prep accordingly. This is the sort of "sense" you should be looking for.

>>49897765
Adventurer Conqueror King System or Swords and Wizardry for any group moving backwards from a newer edition of D&D. Both sets do an excellent job explaining the various assumptions present in old-school play and suggest various rulings to fill in the gaps left by Basic/Expert D&D.

>>49899558

Look into some solo wargames like All Things Zombie or The Department. They have rules for enemy AI.

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>>49899654
DCC is intended to be much more in the vein of gonzo weird fantasy like Moorecock and Lieber. Both the published adventures and the rules themselves push this pretty hard, so if you want something more generic you'd probably be better of with another system desu.

>find out there are more R-series modules, R7 through R10, written by Frank Mentzer (of BECMI authorship) for Gencon use over the years
>they're ultrarare and cost hundreds of dollars
>no one shares scans

So this wasn't so hot. Then I saw more from the man himself in a thread, confirming that there were even more after that of even greater rarity...R11 through R14 or something. R11 was Needle and became I-series.

These seem important. Do I need ultrarare PDF to trade with people to get these? How does something get done? Secret modules, from the old school.

>>49900076
How gonzo are we talking? Like Corum gonzo? I can handle Corum gonzo.

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>>49899241
The standard saving throw categories are ad hoc and rather opaque. Besides, it really isn't necessary to have five different saving throw categories. In many cases, there is no significant difference between one save and another (a consistent 1 point difference isn't really worth the added complexity of having two different categories), and with no discernible logic behind it, people are quite often unaware of the pattern and thus unable to appreciate it. With a single category save system, paired with a bonus (and possibly a penalty) towards certain types of saves, you can retain the differentiation where it's meaningful, but discard it where it isn't. Of course, with bonus (and possibly penalty) categories, it isn't technically a single category save system, but that's a matter of semantics.

>>49897389
An easy way to make that actually happen is to let one room you like give you ideas for what similar rooms there could be.

If there's a workshop maybe there's also a place to store material? Stuff like that.

Also, don't be afraid to be obvious with what the purpose of the dungeon was or is. It's easy to prep stuff and then obscure it so that your players never find it.

>>49897765
Just run B/X. Really. It's old-school, easy, and kid-friendly.

>>49898078
It's OS and OSR-adjacent and arguable.

>>49897765
Kids are pretty fucking brutal

>>49900249
Contact Frank Mentzer himself and ask if he has copies about.

>>49901065
>Just run B/X.
Ditch descending AC though.

>>49897765
Like others said, either just run B/X or use ACKS. ACKS is good for leaving newer-edition players with some options instead of just pitching them into stark OSR style, but on the other hand, B/X pitches them right into the stark OSR style so it has that going for it.

>>49901907
but I like descending AC

>>49901907
Kek, this is so automatic for me now that I didn't even remember B/X having descending AC.

So yeah, seconding this. Ascending AC and a simple BAB table, takes like five minutes to make. Maybe ten if you want to smooth out the progression.

>>49901907
If you like. It doesn't take much effort to switch it, yeah, and if they're happier with ascending, why not?

I tend to use descending because I tend to play LBB OD&D, and it's a nice compact range (AC 9 is unarmoured, down to AC 2 for the best non-magical stuff) and I don't really need to change.

When designing dungeons, do people first draw out the map, or start thinking up and noting down rooms?
I have issues starting the process

>>49902142
>I have issues starting the process
Try the AD&D DMG's Appendix A. Roll up a dungeon section, then try to justify what you've just made.

>>49902142
>I have issues starting the process
Go check out Dyson Logos' blog, grab a map that sparks your imagination from there, and go nuts on it.

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>>49902120

>>49902142
>>49902158
Yeah honestly like, if you haven't run anything yet just steal a map or parts of map and put it together.

The most important thing is to know why a room is interesting or uninteresting. That's what your players are concerned with. Make sure you're dungeon is interesting for you, and that there are choices that your player can make in regards to where to go and what to do in the rooms.

>>49899590
Hug :')

Anyone got experience with running point crawls or path crawls? I'd like to try my hands on a little bit of wilderness stuff in between cities and dungeons but not as the focal point, only as a way to give some more weight to the fact that you're finally in a dungeon.

>>49901015

You failed to roll your save vs death ray, anon. I'm afraid Blackleaf died and now you have to leave th thread.

>>49900537
>Corum gonzo

Roughly about there I'd say.

Why would anyone use the Alternative Combat System?

>>49904707
Fuck off, I know you're maybe doing it jokingly but multiple saves is one of those archaic mechanics that is fine to keep but ultimately make such small impact on the probability that you're using to model chance in your game that it doesn't define it. I just run "magical saves" and "non-magical saves" because having 5 saves makes for more hassle when new players roll up a character than the actual categories are worth it.

>>49905333
A lot of people already coughed up ten whole dollars for the LBB box set, they weren't really keen on paying another buck fifty or whatever it was for a copy of Chainmail – if they even understood what it was. I think the California crowd had no notion of miniature wargaming at all, for instance. The ACS made D&D a more complete and self-contained game, which was probably extremely important for its spread.

Still, from where we are using Chainmail's obviously superior, of course. No real argument there.

>>49904707
>I'm afraid Blackleaf died and now you have to leave the thread
If it weren't for that faggot who tried to steal his DM's girlfriend and wouldn't shut up about her abs, this would be the hardest I've ever laughed at anything posted on /tg/. I'm a little bit ashamed.

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>>49905458

Anon, get out of here, YOU'RE DEAD! You don't exist anymore!

>>49897765
Another vote for Swords and Wizardry.

>>49905458
Fort/Ref/Will Save master triumvirate.

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Ran pic related for my Halloween session today. I was surprised at how creative my players got with coming up with a spooky monster in like 5 minutes. It ended with most of their retainers and horses dying, but they managed to escape.

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>>49906005
My afro-american.
We might be in the minority around here though.

>>49906014
Do tell more.

>>49906005
The main thing about original saves is that they describe the effect, not the way you should be "saved" from the effect. So Ref save is very explicit about you dodging the fireball, but save vs. Magic isn't. Maybe cleric brought his shield up in a last moment's prayer and his god saved him, maybe fighter reflected the death ray with his sword. It's an easy way to inject some color in your game. Also I'm saying that as someone who uses a single save category. But save vs. Death or Paralysis or Dragon's Breath sounds metal as fuck still.

>>49900076

do we consider Moorcock weird fantasy? I never knew, it explains why I like it so much though

>>49897640
>>49897724
>>49899836

That could be done by simply having themed parts of the dungeon, right? for example if they found a passage leading the classic Lost World kinda thing, they'd expect dinosaurs and prepare accordingly, while still having it seem unexpected and wondrous, right?

>>49907185
>That could be done by simply having themed parts of the dungeon, right? for example if they found a passage leading the classic Lost World kinda thing, they'd expect dinosaurs and prepare accordingly, while still having it seem unexpected and wondrous, right?

Yeah, and that's the right way to do it. Having weird and wacky dungeon with inexplicable shit doesn't mean players can't plan for it. They just need to figure out what is where and how to deal when they get there.

>>49907212

What do you think is a good premise for this kinda thing? I always struggle to start these things and find something that on one hand does have internal coherence but that also isn't obvious, maybe I'll do the ASE thing, and have them explore an anomalous environment. Anything I could check out for inspiration?

>>49901706
He's the one who supplied the info. His response is always the same as everyone's, author or otherwise..."that material is property of WotC and I will never violate their grandeur by releasing their material"

Plus why would he cut off a source of income when he can sell photocopies for $800 through his friends and associates?

>>49905687
Whatever, I just rolled up a new character. Or do you mean you're throwing me out of the table because if then I'm keeping the dice and the erasers you all borrowed. Also I'm taking the cheetos.

>>49906913
I'll agree to the names being pretty rad.

>>49907298
Can't give you any inspiration but I think a good mode for producing shit like this is to try to take an idea and break it down into parts. Try to make up little formulas for yourself.

If you want to have a dinosaur part, maybe simply try to find ways to show what's coming. How would a dinosaur leave traces? Giant dung pile, old dispensed claws, maybe a giant skull? Perhaps the up to now brick wall dungeon suddenly shows some signs of vegetation (like fern plants or vines). That way you're players can go "hm.. I think some shit is up here".

If the rest of the dungeon was just a bunch of really explicit "trap room!", "monster room!" then I don't think most players would mind. The trap room might've been just an empty room with a single treasure chest on a pedestal, that starts to make mechanical buzzing and whirring when you remove weight from the chest without replacing it (triggering some horrendous effect like face melting gas if the weight isn't replaced). Maybe the monster room is just a big dumb troll sitting in a room with a water pool in the middle, the player's are still going to react.

If you have these simple but fun little obstacles, the special part where you introduce the World of the Lost is going to feel fucking awesome. Especially since Joe died to the face melting gas earlier, and Julia still wears the trolls ass as a hat and took his club as weapon after breaking her spear trying to open a locked door.

>>49907185
Yeah, theming is important. I think letting PCs be able to research the dungeon's background and have that background suggest some sort of threat can also be really helpful too, but the mileage you get out of this this varies a lot on your group.

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>>49907298
I like the approach in the Etrian Odyssey games that always feature a lost precursor race usually engaging in wild genetic and environmental experimentation, even creating artificial ecosystems for various purposes in the different games, such as testing organisms for the rigours of space travel or creating natural systems that will clean up environmental degradation.

Lost fore-runner races of gods or beings with godlike powers to reshape their environment are all good candidates. They give you:
-ruins
-layouts that have some sort of logic (rather than completely wild areas)
-records, legends, and half-truths that can be clues for PCs
-excuses for really potent magical stuff with catastrophic consequences to be buried under the earth
-provide the rationale for their own demise and erasure from history ("me am play gods, me go too far!")

>>49845750
>>49845946
Back again, I'm working on doing it tonight. But it looks like there's an more The Darkness Beneath in "Fight On! 014" but it's not in the mega with the others.

>>49868605
>>49868155

>Ctrl+F "True AD&D"
>Hide posts

Stop replying to the troll.

>>49907507
Maybe get onto WotC, try to convince them that they could make mad dosh from greybeards if they sold PDFs of R1-14 through DM's Guild?

>>49909257

I think the most rational explanation of an unexplained wondrous dungeon is always otherworld-y interference, I'll probably just have it be a literal gateway to the other world, but that doesn't explain why they're there.

Are there any rules for having them live in the dungeon, instead of coming out of it? Maybe I'll put a little shack city down there for there to return to.

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>>49910444
One thing to watch for if using "magical gateway access only" dungeons is that they're by nature very restricted. You get in via a gate or you don't.

This gives you as the GM lots of control over where PCs enter the dungeon and a lot of freedom in creating shortcuts back to the PC home base, which is a tremendous advantage for framing scenes and pacing.

On the flip side, this does create a "theme park" or very game-y feel in the sense that PCs cannot attempt innovative solutions to try and create shortcuts of their own devising and their progress is very much in the GMs fashion.

An underground dungeon in a ravine like in >>49909257 might allow PCs to enter from the surface and work their way down, or throw caution to the winds and attempt to rappel down the sides via rope, or dig through a layer, etc. This sort of stuff is lost by necessity if the only way into the dungeon is a very specifically defined sort of gate.

>>49902142
I started by thinking up rooms. Then, I make a map. When I feel like the map is getting too crowded, I start to cut rooms that I'll use later as encounters for the second floor.

Your dungeon floor should have a lot of 'levels' to it. Ascending slopes, descending slopes, rooms that connect to each other in non-obvious ways, so on so forth. Everything in the dungeon should be roughly connected, no one-off branches or linear stuff. There should be multiple entrances, and multiple ways into the next floor, and landmarks in every notable room to make it less of a pain for the players to remember where exactly they are.

Dungeons shouldn't just be a clean row of encounters, make them messy, make them chaotic, give the players a reason to sit down and think.

>>49910591

nono, the dungeon itself is the gateway itself, which would explain the weird.

I also don't really want them coming out of the dungeon if I can help it. Why do I never see that in adventures? Even megadungeons expect you to come out at the end of the session.

>>49910914
>Why do I never see that in adventures?
Because how else are they going to re-stock and recuperate? Are you going to put merchants throughout like some sort of JRPG?

>>49910937

maybe? is this bad?

>>49910954
Yes. How do the merchants get stock? Where do they live? Do all the merchants sell healing potions? If not, how do you plan on the PCs healing up?

>>49910984

I dunno, maybe my brain has been ruined by video games, these don't come off to me to be inherently a problem

>>49910984

>not making your way to the lost underground city of Ib-Khalan
>not buying your way in past the guards
>not aiding a nabob to get citizenship papers that allow you to trade with merchants and stay within the walls legally
>not sallying forth with a brace of molemen guides and sherpas

Man, it's like you don't even underworld.

>>49911087
>maybe my brain has been ruined by video games
This is exactly the case.

You need to have an explanation for those merchants to be there selling that shit, even if it's just 'it's actually a crashed starship, the 'merchants' are the replicator/vending machines for the crew'. It all has to make sense in-universe.

>>49911089
Is that still dungeon at that point, or have you retreated to civilisation to stock up for another assault on the dungeon?

>>49911259

One or the other, maybe both? The starting town would be a guaranteed safe location, the underground city might not be safe, and may constitute both a location to rest and restock, and an adventure location in itself.

>>49911302
It's almost like philosophy. When does underground wilderness turn into dungeon? When it's [sapient race]-made? But caves are often used as dungeons.

How does a town differ from a dungeon if you could have hostile encounters in the town? Encounter frequency? Not being fully enclosed? But then what about underground cities?

>>49911225
>It all has to make sense in-universe.
As previously established, no it really doesn't. >>49897640

Hell, Gygax and Kuntz put in shit like "a living room, where all the furniture is alive and murderous constructs" and "a machine level with conveyor belts and various saws, stamps and such". Why? In the first case entirely to satisfy the potential pun in "living room", in the second case because they loved that recurring device in Bugs Bunny and Donald Duck cartoons and figured it would be a fun gaming challenge (it was). Why were these things under Greyhawk Castle? No reason, or if you prefer, "because the builder was a mad archmage who was transparently Gygax-as-DM inserted into the setting", i.e., a different way of saying "because Gygax felt like it".

>>49911394
It doesn't have to be an obvious reason, it doesn't have to have a reason the players can ever find out, it doesn't even have to be a particularly good reason, but you as GM should always know why everything in your dungeon exists and what it's original purpose was.

'It doesn't have to have a reason, just throw in anything you like willy-nilly' is absolute cancer, and anybody advocating it is not somebody I'd want to game with.

>>49911473
>Gygax was cancer
I'm not sure you're in the right thread exactly.

Or are you saying there's some kind of distinction between "just throw in anything you like willy-nilly" and "literally you in a cone hat and robe sitting at the bottom of the dungeon, amusing yourself by creating nonsensical dungeon levels as challenges for adventurers, with the source of your immense magic power explained as you being the DM"?

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>>49910954
>>49911087
They're not "inherently" problems, much like running a dungeon that's a long corridor filled with X humanoid monsters and nothing else is not inherently a problem. It's all about giving players options and hooks via context.

Maybe the merchants exploit a secret route into the dungeon that the PCs might want to know about. Or perhaps like in >>49911089, perhaps the dungeon is big enough and the ecology supports an underground town of sorts. Or maybe they're just inexplicably there with goods to sell.

All three can easily be made memorable encounters but the difference is in the amount of engagement players have available. There's certainly nothing stopping you from improvising on the spot either, but the pitfall there is possibly exposing yourself to plotholes or inconsistencies.

As stated before, the whole reason to stay consistent is so the players feel like they have an actual grasp of how the setting works and their decisions. Remember, players are not telepaths. Their understanding of the setting, the room, the description, etc. will never match perfectly with yours.

Even if you're the politest, nicest GM in the world, constantly having to ask the GM for permission is very draining as a player - the best games happen when the player "gets" the GM's setting and knows implicitly that "yeah, I have an idea of how successful that crazy plan would be." Inconsistency makes that very hard. Story-games sidestep this whole issue by making narrative control the central game mechanic, but traditional referee play requires those distinctions to be settled by group dynamics.

>>49911716
Yes, because the second has a justification for things existing, no matter how shit.

>>Gygax was cancer
Have you ever looked at any of Gygax's published dungeons?

>>49911394
>>49911716
Hold up, this is only a part view of Gygax's style. This is the same guy who wrote a big chunk in the AD&D DM Guide on Climate and Ecology.

On an unrelated note, perhaps it's time for a new thread?

>>49912027
Dungeon design philosophy edition?

>>49911394

It's always important to remember that Gygax himself was the epitomy of funhouse dungeons and wacky shit just because it's fun, at least in the early days, later on I think he maintained more internal consistency but even then not as much as people would expect. Sometimes I feel like he's the only DM that gets how I want to run a game, even Jacquay isn't quite how I like to do things.

>>49911816
>>49911089

This is what I'm going to end up going with, the King's Field/Dark Souls/Ultima Underworld way of doing things, underworld civilization, possibly everyone's been trapped there, and the little adventurers you meet give you hints about the dungeon and stuff, and of course buy and sell stuff, and provide shelter.

>>49912036
Actually all this talk gave me an idea for another hexcrawl seed question involving dungeon/roaming merchants, but I'll post that in the new thread.

>>49909949
WotC wages war against True AD&D and will never compete with themselves by releasing new information for superior, phased-out rulesets.

>>49902142
Starting by making a list of rooms with fun stuff to interact with is probably a good strategy. Then make up a story about the dungeon, and make some rooms that convey that story.

>>49844377
>>49845750
>>49845946
>>49909653

The Darkness Beneath
http://www69.zippyshare.com/v/awikev6Y/file.html

Alright, I did it (mostly). I'm still missing Fight On! 14. I bookmarked the each level and slapped the map on the very first and last pages. I also put a short note page at the beginning, and blank pages for the missing levels.

I'm pretty certain that there are errors in here somewhere, so reply to this and I'll try to fix 'em.