Mary-sue thread

>>49827092

Yes.

/tg/ despises competent characters in fiction.

The new rules seems to be that you're allowed one positive trait to not be a mary sue.

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>>49827109

>>49827092
probably not. Kirk has flaws.

>>49827092
People who do that would be completely unaware of what a Mary sue is or how the term was coined.

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>>49827092

>>49827247
So does batman yet people routinely call him one.

To be a Mary Sue you have to be Better Than Everyone Else, particular at the thing they are best at. You have to have a Special Power that breaks the setting and makes you effectively invincible. You have to have inexplicable sexual attraction from everyone around you. And you must have "flaws," which are superficial in nature and can in no way inhibit you.

If you do not have all four to some degree, you are not a real Mary Sue.

>>49827265
People call batman a sue because he's not just competent, he's the most competent. He has seemingly infinite access to resources, and is the smartest, cleverest, most dangerous individual in the setting

What fucking flaws does he have? That he's a paranoid jerk that has plans to kill all of his friends? Thats not a flaw it just ups his absurdity .

Fuck batman.

>>49827280
Drawings off of this

Kirk's flaws have many time nearly gotten him and his crew killed, his rashness and eagerness to rush into danger have nearly fucked him many times

Batman's flaws just serve to make him more badass and cooler, so they're not really flaws.

>>49827280
Luckily my character has no flaws.

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>>49827287

Remember Batman is an inconsistent character written by hundreds of authors over seventy years across half a dozen different mediums.

The Christian Bale Batman is not the same as the Animated Series Batman, who himself is not really anything like the Frank Miller Batman.

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>>49827092
How mary sue is this character?

Game is WoD

>>49827321
There is literally no obstacle batman cannot overcome. Ever.

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Kvothe.

>>49827303

I would argue that Batman is not inherently a Mary Sue, but he can easily be written as one, more easily than most characters, and in fact has in canon materials.

Many DC heroes are like this because of the nature of their universe being "larger than life," and "mythical," compared to the more down-to-earth Marvel setting.

>>49827340
Main characters usually end up overcoming the obstacles the story present them with, what's different in this case?

>>49827352
Honestly Superman feels like less of a sue than Batman because Supes has had a lot done to humanize him and at times is almost Dr Manhattan esque

Batman just comes off as a character thats got nothing to ground him. He always overcomes any problem because that's his character.

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>>49827352

Marvel is just as fantastic and retarded as any other comic book franchise. It's fucking comics.

The only real difference is the fact Marvel's writers are historically better at writing characters as likable people.

DC likes staffing itself with the kinds of people who would unironically use the term "moralfag".

>>49827249

It's rather sad that's it's become a term for "character I don't like."

In original incarnation, a Mary Sue is a self-insert character who follows pretty closely the guidelines laid out by >>49827280. And on top of that, the character is exclusive to fan-fiction. Actual canon can't technically have Mary Sue characters, as it's purely a extra-canon element.

Now, there can be bad characters, poorly written characters, poorly executed characters, and characters that seem to be at odds with the setting, but none of them are Mary Sue if they are in an actual, published piece of media as official canon.

Mary Sue originally was a self-insert character in a Star Trek fan-fiction story, the named character from which the meme prouts.

>>49827218
Thats not what a strawman is ya dumbo

>>49827340

Oh my god you're stupid.

>>49827405
It's intentionally misinterpreting what the definition of a strawman is in order to take a jab at the validity of certain people.

It is a strawman.

>>49827340
Couldn't get to into fatherhood without fucking that up

>>49827362
Sometimes characters are faced with something insurrmountable. Sometimes your ability set is just not cut out for the task. Usually you have to get someone to help you then. Or pray for divine assistance.

But batman doesn't have to. Batman can just bullshit his way through anything.

>>49827444
Which is a flaw that only serves to make him more of a cool brooding loner than before.

>>49827092
Yes, they would.

Mary sue has lost all semblance of definition.

Anyone got any examples of Mary sues in popular media that's not Rey from SW:TFA?

>>49827525
Rey from the new start waa-

Fuck

>>49827429
A strawman is a fake argument you create in order to refute. He did not do that.

>>49827458

He couldn't stop the Joker from crippling Barbara Gordon. He couldn't stop Jason Todd from dying, or from being corrupted by the failures of the Batman Philosophy when he came back. He couldn't stop Dick Greyson from resenting him and leaving him to strike out on his own. He couldn't fix Harvey Dent's face, or Harley Quinn's mind, or Mr. Freeze's wife and related insanity. He couldn't completely destroy the Gotham mob families, couldn't stop Black Mask from gathering their remnants and founding a new criminal empire. He couldn't do anything when a huge Earthquake hit Gotham and it became No Man's Land, he left the city entirely because Bruce Wayne could do more for the city raising relief aid than batman could on the streets.

In the end, he can never win. No matter how many battles he claims as victories, his crusade is endless. Gotham will never be saved because the Batman, no matter how amazing he is, is just a man.

Batman isn't a Mary Sue. He's just a Super Hero.

>>49827566
Fair enough. How do you call someone voluntarily misinterpreting the definition/meaning of a word to attack someone else?

>>49827602
Didn't the DC writers basically say "lol Batman iz the best only reason he's not solved all crime in gotham is because of a literal curse"?

"Shadowpact #5 by Bill Willingham expands upon Gotham's occult heritage by depicting a being who has slept for 40,000 years beneath the land upon which Gotham City was built. Strega, the being's servant, says that the "dark and often cursed character" of the city was influenced by the being who now uses the name "Doctor Gotham." "

The above quote basically says "lol it's not batmans fault tho :^)"

>>49827525

That bimbo from the Twilight Books. Probably that wank fantasy rich dude from 50 Shades of Grey. I don't know because I never read it, but i assume.

>>49827607
That's still a strawman, it also covers willful misinterpretation and being a pedantic cunt. An example would be "Cunt? You saying only women can commit fallacies?"

>>49827525

Depends what you consider popular media? Arguably some depictions of Batman, like people in this thread are saying. Wesley Crusher from Star Trek: TNG is a common example. Some cartoons come to mind. Chloe in Fairly OddParents. [spoilers]Maybe Starlight Glimmer from MLP, mostly on the "better than the best character in the setting at their best talent."[/spoilers]

>>49827683

Damnit

>>49827667

And yeah, Bella from Twilight. But that one's easy since it was literally fanfiction first.

>>49827350

Definitely, but that's kind of the whole point of the story and it's repeatedly implied that Kvothe is heavily embellishing the story as he retells it. That said, it's also clear that most of what he's talking about actually happened, and he really is Amazing At Everything.

>>49827671
Are you >>49827566?

>>49827375

Supes is honestly more human than bats is. Superman does a very good job of standing on the same level as other people, even if he's a very powerful person. Bats holds himself above others.

It's kinda funny that the least powers hero is significantly less connected to humanity than the alien guy with godline power.

>>49827660

Ehhh, I don't know if that's really what its saying. Its not like Batman never fights occult shit, he's bros with Ettrigan. Trying to do the Lovecraftian thing where POWERS BEYOND ALL MORTAL COMPREHENSION influence the universe isn't giving the hero a blank excuse check.

Also, if an Old God really is responsible for Gotham being Evil City, that means Batman was corrupt all along himself, right? Bruce Wayne is FROM Gotham.I wouldn't classify "tainted by the touch of an Old One so that all his works will inevitably turn to ash," as a meaningless flaw.

>>49827737

I honestly think that once Batman left the camp of the Golden Age behind he wouldn't have worked in a universe without Superman to act as his foil. The two are so perfect in their yin/yang relationship its kind of amazing that it wasn't on purpose.

>>49827752
You're misinterpreting what i mean. He does fight occult shit, he does do his best, and batman himself is not touched by the occult. The thing is, the city is always evil and has always been - if i remember correctly it was an ancient sacrificial site and got cursed that was as well. It removes agency from batman, removing all blame of the cities evil from his shoulders, in turn making him a total hero with no real flaw.

I mean, the curse basically makes it so that even superman would be unable to clean the place up - combine this with the fact that The joker is immortal and a literal perpetual evil, having been constant since the founding of modern Gotham, excusing the fact that Bats won't kill him.

Since he can't.

>>49827752
Also, on your "Batman has failings, and can't ever win." Keep in mind, the mark of a Mary Sue isn't so much the ability to constantly succeed, as much as it's being not only super important(only counts in fanfiction), but having the universe bend over backwards to prove your sue character 'right', and anything that might be their fault, is due to something outside their control.(Such as mind control, or curses boo hoo sue). Last, but not least are meaningless flaws, although....Even if Batman was cursed, while that is a flaw, it's also too ambigious to tell when/IF it actually affected him. It's also meaningless, and once again, acts as a way to prove that it wasn't his fault.

Off the top of my head from what I've been watching lately:

Samwise Gamgee
Ip Man
Fox Mulder

Admittedly Mulder's a bit iffy.

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>>49827877

Honestly, this is why Batman should be kept on as small a scale as possible.

When the more fantastic elements of the universe show up, his true superpower--the writers are feeding him tips--becomes more and more obvious.

Say what you will about the Nolan movies, at least most of what Batman encounters is something you could realistically expect him to handle. He's not magically teleporting up to the Satellite of Justice with a dime bag of kryptonite.

>>49827883
>Ip Man
I wouldn't say so, he clearly struggles in some of his fights (especially against twister in 2) and the first movie is all about him learning to take martial arts more seriously instead of treating it like a game. Since his character actually develops he obviously wasn't flawless to begin with so he doesn't really count.

>>49827092
ALRIGHT REAL TALK

The ACTUAL problem is a character who is not truly challenged. A story is about conflict and if a character is not challenged then there is no good conflict.

"Mary Sue"s fail to be challenged because they're too good at the things they do.

You could have a perfectly engaging story about a level 99 wizard as long as he was conflicting with other level 99 wizards (or power equivalent)

>>49827109
A mary sue has a few defining aspects
>Better than everyone else for no specified reason
>Super special snowflake for no logical reason which provides no importance
>The universe revolves around the hero
>Nobody calls out the hero when he does something bad

For example this is pretty fucking mary sue
>As a scout space marine Jimmy slew a daemon prince and was promoted to the rank of captain
>After being promoted to captain he personally led the defence of the fortress monastery from Abaddon the Despoiler driving off a force 50 times the size of his own
>For his heroism he was promoted to chapter master at the age of 25
>He later butchered a group of sisters of battle and destroyed several churches to the emperor because the emperor never wanted to be worshiped, nobody calls him out on this

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>>49827883

>Admittedly Mulder's a bit iffy.

He is absolutely not a Sue.

He's only a mediocre FBI agent (David Duchovny said this himself). The universe shits on him constantly. And most people who meet him think he's a creepy, delusional weirdo with a big tinfoil hat.

He's not an incompetent loser, but he does struggle both with himself and the world. He's honestly a very compelling character.

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>>49827092
>would /tg/ label Captain Kirk a Mary Sue?
no I might bitch that he's got plot armor, but he's got plenty of flaws

>>49827287
No fuck you, Batman is fucking great, Batgod is trite boring shit, and would still lose to a 100% motivated Supes.

>>49827907
He barely struggles even in the final fights. I haven't seen 3 yet but I remember his fight with the Japanese general dude wasn't even close. There was no suspense. And no he doesn't develop significantly, I'm not sure what you're thinking of when you say that.

>>49827950
Well, Duchovny lied, Mulder was an excellent agent. This isn't just self-evident from his solve rate... Remember that asshole veteran agent played by the dude who played Red Foreman? He was all tsundere because Mulder was one of the better agents he had ever encountered.

His creepiness was a case of show-don't-tell: the writers tried to remind us he's supposed to be a weirdo, but in practice he was charming and had no trouble banging the occasional hotty.

>>49828054
I think Mulder's success rate is artificially inflated by his concentration on cases that fit his esoteric area of expertise, but from the outset he's certainly described as a prodigy-- particularly in profiling, I think?

>>49828054

Mulder was charming in the sense where if you yourself are kind of off-kilter or weird you'd probably get along well with him. Remember most people who watch the X-Files probably on some level are really interested in paranormal and supernatural stuff, so they probably see a bit of themselves in him.

>had no trouble banging the occasional hotty.

All the girls he bagged were themselves kind of damaged. Wasn't one of them an actual fucking vampire? Mulder is the kind of guy who'd have been laughed out of the bar by basic bitches.

>>49828112
The prodigy thing (which also courts the show-don't-tell rule too) is pretty Sue-y as well in my opinion.

>>49828121
In other words, flatteringly creepy, which comes pretty close to the "Sue flaw" stuff. And "basic bitches" absolutely bang slightly awkward 9/10 men, especially if they have a good job.

Like I say, he's iffy, but he's more on the Sue side than not.

>>49828028
>Batman is fucking great
Any well written character is great, but comic book characters rarely are.

>>49827877

I feel like your bending the definition of Mary Sue to suit your argument. How do you draw a distinction between "The universe bends to prove your character right," and the fundamental metaphor of the fiction? If the point of the story is the Batman is, despite being the only solution, also a product of the problem and thus a part of the problem (a theme all over the Nolan movies in addition to a ton of Batman comics and other media over the years) then the fact that he can never really win isn't making excuses for him or turning a flaw into a strength for maturbatory purposes. Its... the story!

>>49827287
There's a reason why it's called "capeshit".
Hint: It's shit

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>>49828248

>>49828207
I don't think it makes him a sue. Despite his talent, he's saddled with a mind in the pilot because his bosses are not happy about his work, and his poor relationship with the organization he's supposed to be a part of is a perennial problem that he never solves despite the friendship with Skinner.

It also doesn't translate into any kind of perfect record, either. Mulder is constantly being foiled, arriving too late to save the day or even find the truth, and getting in over his head. He may be talented, but he can never quite parlay it into getting what he wants.

>>49828054
>He barely struggles even in the final fights
In two he almost loses consciousness twice, I'd call that struggling

>he doesn't develop significantly
at the start in one he fights like it's a game and refuses to take students, at the start of two he's willing to fight for his right to keep students and only fights when attacked first (and even then doing minimal harm). He more or less does a 180 in terms of priorities.

>>49828207

>In other words, flatteringly creepy, which comes pretty close to the "Sue flaw"

I mean, I guess? People like Mulder do exist in real life, you know. He's not too far off from an everyman. And many people who meet him think he's an annoying weirdo. Like every other local cop in each MotW episode.

Why do people seem to think "likability" is the defining Sue trait? Does a character just have to be hated by everyone they meet to not be a Sue?

Yeah, I know "loved by everyone everywhere" and all, but seriously you'd think you can only avoid Suedom if you're a social retard.

>>49828207

If being a prodigy makes you a mary sue, then 90% of main characters are mary sues. The whole point of a "hero," is that they have some ability, more often than not a natural talent that does not take tremendous effort to realize (at least not tremendous in a realistic sense. Rocky doing a training montage may be artistic shorthand for hard work, but realistically it should take a lot more than a few weeks in the mountains for him to beat Drago. He does it because he's a Prodigy.), and that allows them to accomplish their quest.

Saying being a prodigy makes you a sue is encroaching on "Competence makes you OP," territory.

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>>49828326
You're not a sue because you're a prodigy. You turn into a sue if you're such a prodigy that you outshine literally everyone else that's slightly competent. See - Rey.

>>49827092
Yes. They would also call him an autist, cuck, sjw, and whatever others buzzwords they can think of because this website is full of memespouting trash monsters

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>>49827092
>ITT: that's not a flaw, that's a feature, and proof they're a sue
have a related pic

>>49827949

The defining aspect of a Mary Sue is not their competency, it's their lack of arc.

A good character changes over the course of a story because they get their beliefs challenged or learn something and become a better or worse person.

A Mary Sue doesn't have a character arc because they are already too perfect.

>>49828531
The problem with that picture is that it's explicitly created to inform forum roleplayers back in the Gaia days, and thus what it defines as "not a Sue" is still a hackneyed, trite special snowflake with almost no characterization in excess of clapped-out anime tropes from the 90's and bits of self-insert from the 14-year-old author.
They're also likely to be a Mary Sue in a non-powered setting because their flaws orbit around grabbing attention only when the player feels like it and being able to escape when there are actual obligations coming up.

No matter what, though, I'd take the people who made those kinds of characters over the people they became five years later. 40% of them quit the fandom when Western comics hit it big, and 50% of them are toxic Tumblrinas.

>>49828531

I never liked this pic because in its own way, the character on the left is just as annoying.

Instead of just a mismatch of random sparkly traits and perfect social skills, it's a boring milquetoast character who offers absolutely nothing of value.

Also, I can't stand people who think "bad at math" and "clumsy" are flaws. Especially the latter. Clumsiness is a favorite of shit writers who don't want to give their waifu any genuinely unattractive or debilitating character foibles.

Real flaws are things like naivete, pigheadedness, social retardation, lack of imagination, indecisiveness, impulsiveness, etc. They can be sublte, but they have to actually hinder the character. "Clumsy" or "cries too much" are really only flaws if they actually cause her problems.

>>49827883

I'd hardly call Sam a Sue, canon or otherwise.

He's a support character for almost the entire work except a very brief bit in RoTK, screws up majorly in regards to Gollum, which has real, practical consequences, and doesn't show anything exceptional except how devoted he is to Frodo; it's far from clear he's a better ringbearer.

>>49828608

My rule of thumb is that if a flaw can go into a list of flaws that are part of a dramatic speech which proves the character is Just Like You And Me, its not a real flaw.

"Sure, I forget to take the trash out sometimes, I spoil TV shows on occasion, I cry too much, but DAMNIT I CAN GET US THROUGH THIS CRISIS!"

>>49827390
>The only real difference is the fact Marvel's writers are historically better at writing characters as likable people.
Good fucking joke. Marvel comics are as shitty as DC. The only thing they have going for them is the MCU

>>49828734

>The only thing they have going for them is the MCU

Which is still way, waaaaay more than what DC has going for them.

>Justice League movies
"Super heroes don't save people, you fucking pussies"

>Arrowverse
"It's like Dawson's Creek but with masks"

>Gotham
"Make Gotham Safe Again"

Emperor of Mankind. The whole Tau race.

>>49828780
>>Justice League movies
>"Super heroes don't save people, you fucking pussies"
Except when they did like preventing earth from being terraformed into krypton,the Superman montage, and Doomsday.

>>49828780

DC's animated stuff is always A Best though. I love their Direct to DVD movies. How can those all be such great adaptations of classic AND recent comic storylines and such fun and interesting new takes on various origin stories when the Live Action stuff is all such bollocks?

>>49827333
I wouldn't call it a bad character so much as a bad summary. I'd establish who he was before and directly after being embraced and let the perks and stuff come through through roleplaying. Its like it was written by his high school sweetheart, or someone else unreasonably facinated by him

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>>49827265
Batman is literally a 12 year old playing superheroes
> I shoot eye-lasers at you
> nuh-uh I invented a lazer proof vest and am wearing it right now
> What? No you aren't
> It's invisible. Also I prepared for this out of nowhere fight and am wearing a ring made up of your specific weakness
> You can't do that! I punch you at superspeed
> to bad this room has a uh, Anti...speed feild. Yea. I built one without telling you.

>>49828608
The fine print on the left even mentions that the traits are "sue-like" and would need to be handled well, though.

>>49828842
Of course, how could we forget a montage in the middle of all the screaming and bad acting? And don't forget the heroes bravely saving the earth from problems that would never have existed if the heroes weren't there, with massive collateral damage. How inspiring

>>49827340
I mean, you're wrong, but why let reality stand in the way of hot memes?

>>49828787
>Tau
>Can't even warp properly
>Got saved from Damocles by the Nids
>Then got almost nommed by the Nids
>Lore portrays them as more than willing to exploit the system for personal goals

I agree that Tau don't fit at all within 40k but they sure as hell aren't nearly as mary sues as half the mcpauldron buffdudes.

>>49827333
I'll say he's average considering this is Vampire: The Masquerade.

Lately, i feel as if the majority of webnovels i read i read a lot of webnovels has had a influx of characters who are extremely powerful, pivotal to the plot and carry the attraction of all other main characters, or are just plain better then everyone else.

These characters are always women/girls, almost without fail. Is it supposed to be some subversion or something, where the male character is weaker then the female?

Can someone tell me if i'm just going mad, or if this is something that's really happening.

>>49828589
>Lack of arc
Not so. Static characters can be written to great effect, even as protagonists, when they are written deliberately. You run into problems when a supposedly dynamic character is poorly executed, and the reader can tell that they SHOULD be changing even though they aren't, or aren't changing in believable ways.

>>49829028
I really wonder how many people here have played Vampire once in a while, considering the utterly ridiculous misconceptions and stereotypes I see on here.
I've played Vampire (as a forever-ST) with a lot of different people for seven years straight. Ask me anything, because judging from what I see here, there's plenty to ask about.

>>49829056
the other way is for the character to be essentially a force of nature and the story is more about how the rest of the setting is affected by their actions, this is harder to make interesting though

>>49828950

Yeah but that wasn't put there by the original creator. Honestly the first time I've seen the image edited to have that.

>>49827092
I don't think so, why would one do that?

Baes on the first season: chauvinist, yes. Signs things without reading them first, sure. Has moments of self-doubt, yup. Resists the alien babes, all the time.

Wait, are we talking about the actual captain or his flanderization?

>>49827941
I disagree. The story can be interesting even if it's no real challenge to the character. It's all in the delivery.

>>49829038
I think there's a reason why the original Mary Sue was a girl. It's considered unacceptable to dislike a woman, so writers who are doing everything they can think of to make their main characters immune to negative reactions from the audience will make them women.

>>49829084
It was a joke.

Vampire (either masquerade or dark age) is also the main game that I've played and play and memes aside it's hit and miss regarding players making "sues". Some do some don't, and some clans are more prone to becoming sues or being elected by those who want to make a sue (although in general they're all capable of being fine).

>>49829163
We are... talking.. about therealcaptain and not the other one.

He is the greatest captain...
In the wooorld.

>>49829268
But picard is objectively the superior commanding officer anon.

>>49828929
I supose that the greater is the budget, the greater is the executive meddling.

>>49829107
That is far from the only way to write a static character. They aren't flat or one note, they're just fixed in their nature. You can still do plenty of interesting things with them without making them "forces of nature". Mysteries are fertile ground: Sherlock Holmes, Hercule Poirot, and Sam Spade are all static characters who remain interesting and engaging. Adventure narratives are strong contenders, too. Conan and John Carter may have narrative arcs, but they hardly have character ones.

You don't even need to avoid the internal focus. The protagonist of The Stranger is a static character in a story dedicated to how he very resolutely does not change, even in the face of death.

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>>49829084
How good is OWoD for indulging in late-80's-early-90's nostalgia? Friends of mine who want to run a game of it seem to think that the main appeal of it is wearing trench coats with katanas hidden in them, getting excited about outdated tech, and talking like an Anne Rice novel while trying to keep a straight face.

>>49827092

You've invoked a paradox. Without Trek at its current place in the timeline, you cannot have the original Mary Sue fanfic. So when Trek aired and you were looking for the derogatory to describe Kirk, the term wouldn't be in your lexicon. TOS characters can't be Mary Sues, QED.

>t. totally normal person who is not a temporal agent

>>49827941

Never read the Iliad, huh?

>>49829255
The only times I see Vampire mentioned on here are complete blanket badmouthing, with nothing about the game actually mentioned besides the claim that the players are horrible, everything is dead serious to the point that you cut yourself and that the system "is shit".
It's really noticeable considering that I've seen that about ten times on separate occasions and still haven't seen someone actually debate it or use examples.
Personally, I feel that a Sue in the Old World of Darkness is automatically a result of a bad ST. The ST's job is partially to guide the players in making the right kinds of characters for the game, and there is no point at which a Sue would ever pass the hurdle for a good oWoD character. Considering that the fundamental theme of the system is that you might be a supernatural creature but are also ignorant, relatively weak and a slave to your own flaws both natural and supernatural, it takes active neglect to let a Sue in.
I usually run a check on potential characters - for every positive that the character has that a normal working professional doesn't, I require some kind of backside or flaw to it.
The character is a rare bloodline? Sure, but there's political fuckery involved in the character even being there, and being reckless with bloodline Disciplines gets people mad at you because no one appreciates a potential enemy with those powers. If you're particularly successful as a person, God, you better believe you need to find a flaw to compensate.
The oWoD, more than anything, rubs in the importance of flaws in character creation and even mechanically. To play a Sue, the player has to ignore fluff advice, mechanical traits (like Virtues and Attribute priorities) and system limitations (since the system doesn't have much room for fudging or abuse), and then the ST has to let it pass through.

>>49829084
Hit me up anon. I love vampshit of every flavor. How does the system play? Lots of social or lots of combat? Emo whiner vamps or badass monster vamps?

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>Playing WoW awhile back
>Usually play on an RP server to avoid shitfest Groups
>Discover MyRoleplay and download it on a whim
>Load in to Stormwind and find a lot of other people using it
>Mfw reading through a dozen characters that were edgy, Mary Sue, erotic, or some combination of the three

I was actually sort of wanting to get into the RP side of Multiplayer RPGs. Now I don't even play DnD.

>>49829221
And this is how OPM was actually enjoyable.

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>>49829401
I play /tg/ related games quite a lot but I'm not a regular /tg/ poster, sorry, dunno what you're talking about besides some general hostility towards oWoD in the general thread (although I don't visit it much).

The joke in my circle is more related to the general association of vampires with sues, partly thanks to Twilight but also before that since it's a popular creature amongst the kind of edgy teenager that produces this kind of character. But I quite agree on all your points so calm down senpai.

>>49829377
Jack Harkness get off the interwebs.

>>49829486
The social and combat systems are both pretty solid, though the combat is very lethal and badly edited at times. It's made to support a lot of different playstyles and is very genre-independent, though the setting means that it usually ends up being somewhere midway between action, horror and personal drama.
The system uses a d10 dicepool system with Attribute+Ability rolls, but has a lot of interesting touches - Virtues, for example, which come into play when you would lose Humanity or succumb to vampire weaknesses like sunslight or hunger, as well as Nature/Demeanor, which give a way to regain Willpower by acting in accordance with your Nature as well as being a roleplaying anchor (groundbreaking for the time it was released).
Vampires span the spectrum - from tight-jeans-wearing Humanity junkies with emotional.manipulation and clairvoyance-oriented powers, over leather-jacket-wearing thugs who're just really fucking strong and fast, bestial vampires who can grow claws and control animals, financial masterminds with mind control powers out the ass, inbred blood mages with long and convoluted family trees and Dracula throwbacks with fleshcrafting powers, to inhumanly ugly sewer-dwelling vampires with invisibility powers and one hell of a fascination with computers.
The system and setting encourages playing outside the boxes and playing with clan stereotypes, and there's a lot of focus on characterization and backstory.
The Revised corebook is here - it's by far the most played, and even 20th, the most recent, is still basically the same but without a lot of the charm, as it's intended as a summary volume for old players.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/n8a4l1v5b8egkko/WOD_-_Vampire_-_The_Masquerade_-_Core_Rulebook_%28Revised%29.pdf

>>49829486
Not him but the sysem consists on throwing a lot of D10. Some love this, some hate it.

The game and he setting attempts to be social and if the director is doing his work well, it will be. You can play it differently and some like to just be undead superheroes, but the setting urges you towards politics, schemes, etc. Combat tends to be pretty fast and "deadly" compared to other systems I've played, even though vampires are basically immortal against most things that can kill a human. Lots of combat related vampire super powers for you to enjoy if you're into that, though.

The game attempts to be psychological so it could easily turn into emo whiner vamps if the director is bad yet attempts to be deep. The most monstruous vampires were clearly designed as villains first, but you can play them as long as the campaign is gonna be about that and everyone is okay with it.

>>49828943
It's just a description of how he appears to others. The backstory and personality will be revealed in-game.

>>49828958
Kinda like a city getting demolished because the hero directly made the villain or when the hero almost got POTUS killed because he was an asshole

>>49828608
Do you have that pasta by the guy who grumbled about common Mary Sue flaws on the CYOA general?

>>49829551
It is the most recent example of a power and flat non-sue; instead of the story being about the main character's growth and interaction with the world, the story mostly focused on how a character who is largely already "done" shapes the world and other characters by their existence and actions.

Saitama is also a book-dumb guy, which has impacted his goals and made people ignore him - he's also myopic on a very low key: he doesn't actually care about saving the world or anything, he cares more about being comfortable at home and trying to find an actually challenging fight; he's kind of like a Sayan in that way.

>>49829277
The only captain I'd follow into battle is Benjamin mothafuckin' Sisko.

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>>49829748
Assuming you refer to the last one, fished it off the archive. I don't think it's a pasta, though.

>>49829698
But it puts people's reactions into their heads by applying positive qualifiers to his appearance.
Describe him in neutral terms, and the description still hits home, but without feeling pushy, competitive or obnoxious.
The background says what the characters think, which is a huge no-go. As in, that's the last thing you should ever do, because it's the exact definition of godmoding in an RPG. It also describes things that people would only find out after a longer period of time, which messes with the GM's timeline and is, again, pushy.
The prose is too flowery and feels like you're trying to push your character being cool, when that's something you should be doing by playing him.
There are a lot of elements about him, such as the fact that his appearance is a flawless, perfect Gridiron Boy, that make him feel like an immature power fantasy, and in fact it's very similar to the kind of characters made by the kids at the youth club I GM at.
If you want me to rewrite it, I can rewrite it.

>>49829221
I am conceding that there may be some rare cases where a story can do without any challenge. (I can't think of an example, but i won't say there are any.)

BUT i also think that you might define "Challenge" to narrowly.
A challenge in a story doesn't have to be anything big, flashy or dangerous.
It can be anything that stands between the Character and his Goals. To keep the Lvl 99 Wizard: In an epic Adventure Story his challenge might be the Lvl 100 Archmage, but in a short, humorous story it might as well be the small mouse in his study he can't fireball because its sitting on the alchemy table.

(Also, i want to mention that i don't really agree with >>49827941 in so far as that i think that there is more to a Mary Sue than tensionlessness)

>>49829898
>I can't think of an example, but i won't say there are any


Not him, but again, Iliad. There is NOTHING out there that can threaten Achilles. Even Hektor, the big badass of the Trojan side, runs away as soon as he sees Achilles coming for him.

The entire dramatic narrative centers around Achilles and his willingness to fight, but it's reinforced almost from the beginning that when and if he takes the field, it's a foregone conclusion.

>>49827333
I'm rather fit (on the level that you see I work out), and I have around 20-30 pounds on that guy.

Would not call him "athletically built".

>>49829866
I'm thankful for the detailed critique: can you rewrite it? I'll be glad to read your version too

>>49830066
I'm not american so I can't into pounds: I'll modify it when I get the chance

>>49829486
To add my two cents to the different play styles:
In the games i have run i didn't have any Emo Vampires but the Characters, in the long run, tented into two main groups: Littlefinger-Lite or Shadowrunner-Lite.
Maybe it was because of my style of running the game, which very Sandbox-y. Aside from an inciting Incident that brings the PCs together there are no storybooks the characters have to swallow and so the motivations that carry them through are either to get powerful or rich.

Also, in the long run they will run a bar, nightclub or other social establishment that's open during the night.
I only had it not happen once out of all the games i have run, and this was only because the campaign ended prematurely.

>>49830207
Quick, not-entirely-accurate version is 1 kg = 2 pounds

>>49830032
I am not a hundred percent on my homeric poems, but i am pretty sure that that there is more to the Iliad then Achilles killing enemies for 24 Chapters...

>>49830227
How many pounds would you give him: 5 dex, 3 str, 3 stamina?

>>49830160
>Connery stands at about five feet eleven, with a build that wouldn't look out of place on a university footballer.
Cranking down the height to a little below six feet makes him tall without seeming like you're trying too hard. Comparing the build to a footballer lets you put in comparisons and images without putting thoughts in people's heads or being unrealistically specific, and it gives people a reasonably consistent image of his size, physique and muscle/fat ratio in one common example.
>He has dark-blond hair and grey-blue eyes, and seems to be somewhere in his early twenties.
There is a name for the color you're trying to describe, and it's "dark blond". "Steel-blue", like for example "blood-red", is florid and poetic, and should be avoided in character descriptions because there are other, more neutral, options that mean the exact same.
>He's fresh-faced and strong-jawed, with white teeth and neatly-set hair, which he tends to fix when he has a moment of free time.
I tacked a little on here, but it should go. Appearance is best described in neutral terms - tell people what makes him good-looking and why, without using tinted words or saying that he's handsome. Tying it to a small flaw (vanity) gives depth of character and breaks up the monotony of a strong, healthy, good-looking alpha male character.
>He wears dress shirts, jeans and running shoes most of the time, throwing on a windbreaker when he needs it. The most distinguishing thing about his wardrobe is that it could have jumped right out of the 70's, with its oranges and browns.
Don't state a length of time, because the GM might have other plans. Jackets are extremely varied in style, and "he's wearing a jacket" has become synonymous with "I want noncommittal weapon storage space" for me by now. The line about the 70's allows people to relate to it, using knowledge everyone has to describe his appearance a little more closely while adding some flavor.

>>49830357

There is, and in fact, the first line of the poem sets up the dramatic conflict, not between the Acheans and the Trojans, but between Achilles and Agammemnon.

But the fact remains, there isn't a "challenge" in the conventional sense of the word, it's more of a psychological drama, centered around Achilles struggling to re-define what his purpose is, why he fights, and why he follows the king of Mycenae despite the latter's weakness compared to him.

And it's a very good story, despite said lack of challenge.


>>49830227

2.2. works better.

>>49827340

I remember one episode in the justice league cartoon where the american government shot a kryptonite missile towards superman and batman pretty much used his batplane to divert the missile and got almost exploded in return.

Also when Wonder Woman was turned into a pig and he had to give in to Circe's demands to actually get her back to normal.

>>49827350

Eh. He is ridiculously talented, but from what we can tell the chronicle is about how his arrogance, short-sightedness, and various other ways he was his own worst enemy left him a broken wreck of a man waiting to die in his early twenties. I don't see it as sueish if the qualities that make you so exceptional end up being your downfall when they get you into higher and higher circles to fall from when your various character flaws inevitably bite you in the ass.

>>49830160
>His voice is a deep baritone that carries well - it's either talent or training. He has clear enunciation and rarely loses track of what he's saying.
Positive traits often benefit from a snag - here, for example, you might imply that he's actively trained his voice. Describe how Enchanting Voice manifests in him in neutral terms, and don't tell players how their characters feel.
>When you last saw him at the Creation Rites, he was a mess - bloodshot eyes and filthy hair, swinging a bat dripping with gore and mud in a roaring frenzy.
Negative, "dirty" adjectives are good when describing murder or death, especially in the WoD. Again, putting thoughts and opinions in people's heads is bad style, and you change tenses as well as switch to a more narrative style in the middle (this is just a gripe).
>In any moment of silence, he can be counted on to crack his knuckles one after one, with no regard for the situation.
I have to admit I can't figure out which time you're writing this at, but then again, there's nothing wrong with the last line. I just changed it because I wanted to do a consistent job.

>>49830370
Vampires' physical Attributes are independent of their appearance, since they're supernaturally granted if the vampire hasn't had them since they were human.
Someone with 3 Strength and Stamina could be a 70-kilo swimmer or a 110-kilo "big guy" with little training.

>>49827899
This.

The problem writers don't seem to realize is the more popular a character is doesn't mean the more important a character should be.

Hell, if they had followed that rule then the current fuckery of giant intertwined universes would never have happened in the first place.

>>49828929

I guess the people working on the DC animated stuff are just their equivalent of Marvel's film writers.

The MCU is the only good thing about Marvel right now. Their television is boring. Their comics are cringeworthy. Their animation is basically completely forgettable.

DC's live action is a mixed bag. The Nolanverse honestly is a good adaptation. DKR's problems I think mostly come from the massive monkey wrench that was Heath Ledger's death. It's pretty obvious that wasn't how they intended the story to tend. Overall though I like the trilogy; it avoids a lot of the stupider elements of superhero movies. But goddamn the Justice League movies are proving to be absolute dog shit.

Their live action TV is kind a weird. Arrow started really strong before Laurel basically turned into a drinking game. Gotham's also been pretty good, even if Season 3 is off to a rocky start.

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>>49827333
>>49830370
I would say that he at the very least would be 200 pounds, but possibly quite a bit more.
Heres a Reference for 187cm / 90kg , 6'2 / 198 lbs , judge for yourself.

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>>49830525
>>49830419
That's good: thank you anon. I still have a lot to learn when writing a good description

>>49830513
Considering that for now, he's so awesome he can overcome the fact that being awesome becomes "bad" for him. At least in the story he's telling us.

Pub Kvothe may hint he's something more than a sue, but the Kvothe you're actually hearing of is clearly sueish with his supposed flaws that are not really relevant (one of the main features of a sue). I haven't read the second book, so correct me if the story advances in a different way. For now I see no connectio between story-Kvothe and narrator Kvothe.

>>49830632
I've seen worse.
The most important thing is that you're willing to learn and don't immediately go on the defensive. That's the one biggest hallmark of a bad player - that when you point out flaws, they feel the need to deny that they're flaws till the point of a pitched fight.
I know that because I've had to work on that a fair fucking amount myself.

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>>49830674
>that when you point out flaws, they feel the need to deny that they're flaws till the point of a pitched fight.
Yes that's despicable, I agree.

I know that I'm not the best player I can be so I hope that I can learn how to better play with others so we all have fun together.

I'm just going to toss in a quote here that I saved a while ago in anticipation of threads like these:

"A character doesn't need to be flawed. They need to be human, and that means occasionally putting their foot in the mouth, having terrible morning breath, being grumpy on Monday mornings and disliking Steve from Accounts for no reason (actually because he hit on Ellie at the Christmas party but you can't tell people that).

A character doesn't need a crippling social personality disorder to be believable."

The thing about a Mary Sue is that they're not human. Their flaws are things that only somebody with no understanding of how humans work would buy--like Bella's "clumsiness" which only serves to make her more endearing, and disappears at the most vital moments.

>>49827251

That whole image is retarded

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> all this debate
Here ya go

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Far as I know, what makes a character a Mary Sue isn't usually about the character themselves but how the narrative and plot treats them. The more the writing seeks to elevate a character as incapable of fault or being in the wrong, bend reality to suit their whims and demonize anyone who contradicts or opposes them, the less endearing and more annoying they become. It's why those 'political cartoons' where one character is smug and intelligent while the other is a screaming lunatic come off as grating and unlikable.

>>49827092
>were to air today would /tg/ label Captain Kirk a Mary Sue?

A better question would be "what major protagonist character on TV could not be labeled a Mary Sue?"

The answer, of course, being none.

>>49829316
>he very resolutely does not change, even in the face of death.
He does, though. At the end he realizes that he has the ability to make choices.

>>49830066
I'm rail thin and an inch shorter at 170, so yeah he's pretty scrawny.

>>49829277
>>49829804
Janeway

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>>49827883
>Samwise Gamgee
You'd better be having a laugh

>>49827340
Parents

>>49831874
Lack of parents isn't a flaw. It is a Tragic Backstory™. It just drives him further into the Sue territory.

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>>49831545
This guy gets it.

Richard from the Sword of truth series is a prime example.
Out of context, he's a murderous, intolerant, arrogant madman, and could no way be called flawless.
In the narrative of book, he's the perfect man. Not because he's flawless, but because his flaws simply aren't acknowledged as such.

Reminds me of Rose Potter, the apex sue.

>>49831940


>Can't be good at things, only Sues are competent and skilled.
>Can't be good with people; being loved by everyone is a textbook Sue trait
>Can't be ostracized or isolated; Sues never have friends because people can't accept how great they are
>Needs crippling character flaws; anyone who doesn't trip over themselves whenever they do something is a Sue
>Can't have unique disabilities; only Sues have to rely on something beyond their control to be interesting
>Can't have special powers; Sues are always the most powerful people around
>Can't be totally mundane; a Muggle in a world of Wizards is a Sue after all
>Can't have bad things happen to them; suffering and tragedy is only for Sues
>Can't have good things happen to them; a Sue is someone constantly rewarded by the universe.

The only way a character isn't a Mary Sue is if they're a straight-B student with milquetoast parents, a small number of friends, and everyone they ever meet is 100% ambivalent to everything they ever do.

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>>49827525
Dominator from Wander over Yonder.

Her first fucking appearance spent like twenty minutes making her out to be the new, actually competent overlord, and then they should-horned 2 minutes of her sperging out to say "oh, look how cute and quirky she is too".

They also had the previous big bad fall in love with her, something straight out of an "Evil Sue" fanfic.

>>49831998
>Reminds me of Rose Potter, the apex sue.
What's that?

>>49827683

Ive been rewatching the old Justice league and batman comes off super mary sue in it. The only time hes made a mistake that hurt him in any way was joker catching him off guard, and as a result batman manipulated like 3 people nearly to the point of betrayong the whole and 1 to that point, before escaping from a titanium body brace wothout his utility belt when it held him unable to move, which was followed by him claiming he could have left whenever he wanted.

>>49832101
An A grade psychopath written by a truly disturbed person.
Considers blowing up an island over a relationship dispute to be a perfectly rational response.

>>49832042
Nah, nothing like that. People can be competent without falling into Sue territory. It is when their ability to do things over-shadows everyone and everything else.

A great number of those who write Batman do just that. I mean their are examples of him not being a Sue, but for most writers he is a Sue and that is how they write him.

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>>49832042
Kind of reminds me of this

>>49832134
Greek goddess?

>>49832048
Didn't she get defeated by a flower?
Didn't she make a total ass of herself in the last episode?

I don't even watch the show. I just saw those clips on YouTube. It seems like the entirety of wander over yonder is super-powerful OC Donut Steel villains being upstaged by a small, furry cheerful fucker.

>>49832144

>every "Male Human Fighter" thread ever

>>49832162
You know, Wander himself as quite a few Mary Sue traits, narratively speaking.

>>49832146
That actually sums her up perfectly.

Only where the Greek Gods were often considered morality tales due to the flaws they demonstrated, her flaws are treated as the ideal all humans should aspire to, and all positive traits are removed.

Imagine Athena, Artemis and Hera rolled into one, and then remove the wisdom, forgiveness, and restrain, then warp their domains of love and nature into things they use as a weapon.

>>49832233

>Imagine Athena, Artemis and Hera rolled into one, and then remove the wisdom, forgiveness, and restrain, then warp their domains of love and nature into things they use as a weapon.

So exactly how they appear in the myths?

>>49829038
No Anon my friend. It's just shitty writing attempting to make it self seem creative by subverting tropes that don't actually exist or have a major effect in literature.

>>49832282
Not really.
When not dealing with infidelity, Hera was a supportive family influence.

When not dealing with her own Hubris, Athena aided the brave and supported the spread of wisdom

When not being batshit insane, Artemis was a role model of chastity and nature

>>49829392
The Aenias is better as a story because it gives focus to lowly weak Aeneas (having to be saved from a battle by your mother disqualifies you from being called a hero) rather than, badass McRip-and-Tear Achillies. I can actually sympathize and understand the struggles of Aeneas on a personal level.

>>49832134
>>49832101

There's also /tg/'s own super sue. I'm not on my main computer otherwise I'd post it. IIRC, it's name is Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way, and the 3 super-bright neon screencaps are floating around somewhere.

>>49832470

>Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way

/tg/ didn't make up this character. She was an OC in "My Immortal", a Harry Potter fanfic so infamously bad even the fucking Harry Potter fanfiction community disowns it.

>>49832430

You've never had a shitty boss? The primary struggle of the Iliad is the one between Achilles and Agamemnon, in how the most talented warrior, the one who should lead if it was solely about personal merit is overrode by the "system", often to both bad effect to the overall cause and certainly bad consequences to Achilles himself.

It's a pretty easy thing to sympathize with.

>>49832518
> Reading the Iliad and the Aeneas
> Not just reading the Oddesy
That's like saying "My favorite part of the Divine Comedy is the last bit"

>>49832500
You know that character is a deliberate joke right?

>>49832720

>Implying the Odyssey is half as good as the Iliad.

Hoi Polloi detected.

>>49831998
>Rose Potter
You...you double-nigger. I'd actually managed to totally block that out. I HAD FORGOTTEN.

>>49827683
Isn't Wesley just normal considering nearly everyone on the ship is some form of prodigy, or at least a foremost professional in their field? Like, people aren't just all over his dick and he fucks up quite a few times.

>>49832821
The whole point is Wesley is SMARTER then all those people. He can engineer better then the engineers, pilot better then the pilots and code better then the programmers. Name a topic and he can do more in it with one hour then a team of specialists could in a year. And everyone loves him for it.

Also yea, he sometimes messes up. But none ever stays mad at him for it.
> WESLEY your black hole experiment almost killed us all and destroyed half the quadrant
> as punishment I won't let you steer the ship for a full week.

>>49832720
>"My favorite part of the Divine Comedy is the last bit"
Not reading the Aeneid is a clear sign of not wanting to understand half of the Inferno, for starters.

>>49832720
There are rumors about it being a joke, but the evidence is still a mess.
The evidence in favor of it being a joke is that it's incredibly fucking bad to the point of parody and that a self-proclaimed "hacker" posted a chapter that had much better grammar and spelling that then got deleted. People theorize that the "hacker" was either the real troll author regretting ruining the surprise so early, or one of his friends messing with him because he had access to his computer.
The one whopping big piece of evidence that points towards it being truly, chillingly real is that the author and her entire friend circle had detailed, realistic and interconnected SNS lives (on Myspace and Gaia, of course) that went four years back. You don't just fake that.

>>49832821
No. Wesley never fucks up (before they put his ass on a buss and mostly kicked him out of the series). Thats the problem with Wesley

Starfleet is supposed to be the best and brightest, everyone on the Enterprise is basically god tier, because they are the best of the best, on the flagship of the entire federation

And Wesley fucking crusher outdoes them all regularly, and he's always right. even the infamous SHUT UP WESLEY was actually WESLEY CRUSHER BEING RIGHT

Oh and the show tops it off by him literally becoming a god and a higher lifeform later in the show. Cause as Roddenbury's Self Insert fanfic character he gets to be god

Fucking hell, Wesley Crusher is the worst fucking meme ever, the only time he was remotely decent as a character is the one time he fucked up and it actually mattered, but they shit that away too with the ACTUALLY GETS TO BE GOD thing.

Easily the worst part of TNG

>>49832978
>WESLEY your black hole experiment almost killed us all and destroyed half the quadrant

A) That is par for the course with Starfleet engineers, though. They all do that shit, all the time.
B) Staying mad at a kid who is "punching above their weight" and fucks up now and again is stupid. The kid has the smarts, but not the experience to temper them, and if you just prevent him from using the smarts, then you're wasting a Da Vinchi-level asset. When you deal with young people (<20 or so), you have to allow them to fuck up now and again, learn from it, and move on. Banning Wesley from the ship or shoving him out an airlock makes everybody feel better (especially the audience), but in-universe, everybody knows that he's capable of so much they don't want to burn him out or waste that potential. Honestly, that's how teaching young people SHOULD be handled.

>Leonardo Da Vinchi was a Mary Sue

>>49833165
Except Wesley's smarts don't need to be tempered. I feel like you didn't fucking watch the show

Wesley was literally never wrong.

>>49831806
Are you fucking kidding me? He's a classic.

>>49832187

Nah, hes a main character cloudcoocoolander.

Besides, there's no such thing as "mary sue" traits. Thats like saying "protagonist traits" or "fantasy character traits"

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>>49827092
In my opinion pic related is the great granddaddy of all Mary-Sue self-inserts It's basically
> So God decided I'm specal enough to see the adterlife so he sent my personal favorite poet to guide me
> there I met all my favorite historical figures and we all hung out and they agreed I was totally cool
> their not suffering or anything cause God shares my opinion about them
> also everyone I ever disagreed with or disliked is in hell
> even the people who are alive totally have spots reserved, I saw them I swear
The lazy fuck couldn't even be bothered to give the main character a different name then his own.

>>49833260
A lot of classical literature is so much like modern day fanfiction that it hurts.

>>49833203
>Except Wesley's smarts don't need to be tempered.

Things went wrong so often they clearly did.

He was the perfect example of that Jurassic Park quote about being so concerned with whether he could, he didn't stop to think if he should. If "he was never wrong", then by definition, a complaint like >>49832978 ("Your black hole experiment nearly killed us all) couldn't exist. Clearly he WAS wrong, or that experience wouldn't have almost killed everybody.

And no, he never learned to temper his smarts with wisdom while being a kid on the Enterprise. Which IMO is one reason they were so hot to pack him off to Starfleet Academy so THEY could maybe pound that tempering into him.

>>49833260

Don't forget it ends with him chilling in Heaven with his waifu

>>49833428
>Paradise Lost was basically Lucifer fanfiction

>>49832042
>The only way a character isn't a Mary Sue is if they're a straight-B student with milquetoast parents, a small number of friends, and everyone they ever meet is 100% ambivalent to everything they ever do.

That almost word for word describes my life, only with all the shameful disgusting shit that I keep buried cut out. Well at least I know I can't be a Gary Stu now.

>>49833161

>Easily the worst part of TNG

I don't know about that. Remember the clip show episode at the end of the second season? Or the Muh Dikk episode in the 1st?

There were some pretty awful stuff in (especially early) TNG that had nothing to do with Wesley.

>>49832042
It's more like common sue traits, they aren't INHERENTLY Mary sue traits, but they're common. Anyway it depends on the universe and the character, and yes each of those can be Sue traits. However, that doesn't make a Sue. In the same way, a bad character, and a good character can have similar or the exact same traits.

Batman is a Sue, his flaws are just there to bolster his importance, show his intelligence, bravery, etc. The tragedy isn't a flaw. Even the way they represent their deaths is pretty Mary Sue. Batman's parent's death is always treated as the worst thing, that ever happened, ever.

His other flaws? His being 'overdetermined', being too 'distrusting''(Which means he's always prepared), he's distanced(which means he's COOL). If you notice, anytime a story points out any of his 'flaws' the other person is either ignored or proven wrong.

>>49833428
>>49833486

Don't forget fucking Ivanhoe.

>>49833987
I am 100% ambivalent to your statement.

>>49834206
> distrusting
Honestly a flaw, as some authors write it. In a couple stories Batman could have saved himself a lot of harm and prevented multiple deaths if he had simple called his friends once things got out of hand. Instead he waits until the last second when even the entire Bat-Family struggles to solve the issue.

>>49834347

All I know is that my heart says, "maybe."

>>49833436
When was Wesley wrong, when did he fuck up before they packed him off

I'll fucking wait but i don't have to because the answer is that he wasn't. Ever.

>>49834060
I mean, we don't speak about the 1st season and its disgusting beardless riker, and while the clip show is bad, Wesley is more aggressively awful

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>>49833028

>You don't just fake that.

See now I kind of want the whole thing to be a "Prestige" sort of deal. Where the original My Immortal author was just absolutely dedicated to this fake persona.

>>49827092
Don't know about /tg/, but Tumblr would call him all sorts of nasty shit.

>>49829804
mah nigga.

>>49830614
>The MCU is the only good thing about Marvel right now. Their television is boring.
>Not loving Jessica Jones.
>Not enjoying Daredevil.
>Not tolerating Luke Cage.
I'll give you that Agents of Shield is starting to get yawn-worthy and that Carter was just shit, though.

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>The sue to out-sue all sues

>>49836831

I actually completely forgot about the Defenders shows.

JJ was really good.

Season 2 of Daredevil was pretty meh though. The Punisher set the bar so high in his scenes everything not involving him was just boring. I couldn't give a shit about Da Brack Sky-aru knowing Frank was somewhere out there being more interesting. So hyped he's getting his own show.

Haven't watched Luke Cage yet. The character did absolutely nothing for me in JJ so it's hard for me to imagine liking an entire show about him.

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>>49827092
How's Dark Yagami? It's to Death Note as My Immortal is to Harry Potter.

>>49829222
I think the reason classic Sues are women is because most fanfic authors are female.

>>49829860
This is really good.

>>49832518
Achilles is challenged by not being able to rule.

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>>49836831
> Implying Agent Carter was worst then Agents of Shield.
Are you actually serous?
Every episode of Shield is the same thing. They wander through the same generic sets murmuring something about Hydra. For the first time in my life I saw a tv show where episodes were so monotonous that I forgot what the episode was about by the time it ended!
> We suspected Hydra was up to something and after 45 minutes we confirmed they may if fact be up to something.
I dropped the show when they expected me to 100% serously accept that a nurse who had drilled little knives to her fingers needed shield to contain her and could fight superhumans to a standstill despite that being her only power.

I mean Carter wasn't a work of art or anything but it was reliably entertaining and pretty funnily written despite High-School-Drama-Class level acting. More importantly the plot moved along and stuff got accomplished.

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>>49829084
I love Gothic Fiction but It's one of the hardest styles to write for. And I seen it done so poorly it hurts. And a lot of the fan base can really kill a vamp / wod game in it's tracks. Please Anon StoryTime. Share your pain

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>>49833257
>there's no such thing as "mary sue" traits

>>49827092
Tbh the only thing I'd look iffy at is the kobayashi maru, and as just ONE thing it can slide.

>>49827265
Batman changes between sue and not sue. He's most sue in the crossovers. For example, making super perfect plans to defeat everybody in the JL and doing it better than any other supergenius; or dodging the undodgeable beams that even superspeedsters have a hard time dodging.

>>49838900
Did you really expect any more from someone who unironically refers to a character as a "cloudcuckoolander"?

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>>49831782
Under Captain Kirk, I would gladly take on a tour then quietly ask for a desk position. His crew takes a number of hits

Under Captain Picard, I would routinely volunteer. Statesman Gentleman Scientist

Under Jane I would go AWOL fck that btch

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>>49833260
Kind of True actually

>>49828703
>My rule of thumb is that if a flaw can go into a list of flaws that are part of a dramatic speech which proves the character is Just Like You And Me, its not a real flaw.
Consider this rule of thumb stolen. That was really good, anon.

>>49836831
Agents of Shield is pretty good and doing their best for how hard the situation (needing to set follow the movies plot progression while having minuscule budget and no showing from the main movie actors) fucks them over.

>>49828703
>>49839251
Corollary: those are still good traits to give a character - they ARE humanizing. Just so long they aren't THE character's personality flaws. For that, you need something a little bit more substantial.

>>49834206


Batman is a main character in a superhero genre, so he is expected to be overpowered. That said, one of his genuine flaws is his obsessive mercy towards to Joker and some of the other unredeemables. That alone has killed uncountable thousands of people over the years.

I vaguely remember batman having issues when it comes to his lonerism-he is geniuinely a huge fucking weirdo when you think about it.

Also he's a huge pussy when it comes to guns.

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A Mary Sue is a self-insert of the author, AKA god.
He or she can't be rebuked or bested because they have the power to change reality to their liking.
In an RPG it's harder to have Mary Sues because the one you'd expect to self-insert in the character, the player, isn't in control of te narrative.
As long as you don't write a list of past accomplishments and adventures it's pretty much impossible to make a Mary Sue character.

>>49827092
Illidan Stormrage.

>>49833205
Not really.

Sam had basically 1 super strong virtue when they set out. He was loyal to a fault.

When he came back he was loyal to a fault and knew how to take a beating and dish out a beating on an as needed basis.

Oh, and he was good at gardening.

He had not magical ability, no inherited super powers, by the standards of even the other hobbit members of the fellowship was far from the best fighter, was of average intelligence, didn't know that much old lore and had approximately 0 ambition.

He was just a loyal servant to a minor aristocrat that picked up bare knuckle boxing out of necessity and came back home with a less than happy I've Seen Some Shit expression.

>>49839951
He was also probably the most sympathetic character of the entire trilogy. Everyone else was a larger-than-life mythological hero, Frodo was basically Hobbit Jesus, even Merri and Pippin went and turned themselves into warrior midgets.

Sam was just the gardner/cook who loved his master so bad he traveled with him to Mordor.

>>49840117
Don't post that smug horseshit here.

>>49828787
>Emperor of Mankind
They are sort of a god so I don't know if you can say their incredible ability at everything is unexplained.

>>49827092
>Captain Kirk a Mary Sue?
He's no more exceptional than the standard genre-show hero, and he does have some flaws and momentary failings.

But since your questions is, would /tg/ call him a Mary Sue, yes. People on here call basically everything a Mary Sue.

>>49827280
Lend me a hand here, it's more a literary character than a playable character but some stuff can be better explained through /tg/ systems and we're on topic.
>16yo invulnerable girl.
>Can't be wounded, immune to poison, can go without food, water and air with stacking cons penalties but can't starve or asphixiate. If she gets nutrients or whatever's blocking her breathing is removed she "reboots".
>Can feel pain, her hp isn't health but her stress level. Her body doesn't know itself invulnerable and will put her in shock and faint if she endures too much pain.
>Too much pain is not much since she's a 4'11", 85lbs spoopy skelly. She's too short, too skinny, too pale and too fair skinned to pass for a normal human. Makes people uncomfortable, like a creepy porcelain doll.
>She gets minor notoriety for slaying an upier in her hometown, gets called to the big city's "hunter's guild" to be praised but isn't offered to join.
>She does however intercept a distress call to the guild because the messenger saw her talking with the guildmaster on the street and tried to make his job easier. She goes to do the job helself to prove she can and only survives clearing a body-snatcher nest because she can't be bitten.
>Gets a hunter's badge through nepotism for having a family member on the guild and because they don't want to disclose the messenger's idiocy or scare people about having their lives put on the hands of untrained teenage rogues.
>At lv4 she develops superstrenght, because this is based on your body size she never goes past 400lbs. Super for her size, but less than a fourth of the average superstrenght limit.
>At lv8 she develops telekinesis, but doesn't really "get it" and never uses it other than recalling thrown knives back to her hand.
>She's comparatively weak and inexperienced among non-baseline-human hunters, but despite her meeknes is convinced she's gotta keep people who can die from fighting terrible beasts as much as she can.
Sue or not?

>>49827287
Batman is best when he gets his shit kicked in everytime he meets a new villain and has to retrain to beat them in the re-match.
Batgod a shit.

>>49840117
Well, one line and already dropped.
That might be a new record

>>49840861
Superheroes in general are shit.
They literally only exist to feel powerful and in control by proxy through.

>>49840847
You people have it all wrong. You're focusing on the symptoms but the symptoms vary from work to work.

The underlying principle and what bothers you when reading it is the extreme level of contrivance. We've all learned to accept that in certain kinds of stories the good guys winning eventually is unavoidable and there's not that much tension. We're enjoying the journey rather than the destination.
But we get ticked off if these lack of stakes invade every part of the story. A writer of a Mary Sue character can't stand having them put down even for a moment. In every situation, from interpersonal conflict to natural challenge there is automatically a win for Sue. The way this win manifests (improbable aptitude, sudden plot twist, characters acting OOC) is irrelevant, but the more contrived it is the more aggravating.
You could write a story about a perfectly normal girl dealing with bullying and make her a Sue (she never has to deal with the bullies at all, she just insults them and they bow to her superior oratory skills) and you can make a story about an engineered superwoman that is the best at everything ever fighting monsters and saving humanity and not have her be a Sue.

>>49841050
It's also about how the narrative treats them. You can have a character lose at something, but if the narrative focuses on how their opponent cheated, the character tried their best, they didn't really want to win anyway and everyone still loves them more, it's not much of a loss.

>>49827700
No, 50 Shades of Grey was fanfiction first. SPECIFICALLY Twilight Fanfiction. Twilight was a dream that Stephenie Meyer had, then proceeded to write down.

>>49841070
Yeah, I would classify that as still a win though.
Technically they lost but the story still gave them a win by maling the loss not count.

It gets a lot clearer and easier to identity the phenomenon if you think in terms of 'wins'.

>>49837118
>Haven't watched Luke Cage yet. The character did absolutely nothing for me in JJ so it's hard for me to imagine liking an entire show about him.

It was actually a lot better than I expected it to be

I didn't really care about Luke in JJ, but he's pretty cool in his own show.

>>49833260
I mean, you're right that it's essentially self-insert fanfiction. But then it's very well-written fanfiction, where the writer actually has a good grasp on grammar and prose, and has some neat ideas once you get away from his need to place his enemies in hell.

Essentially, Dante is that incredibly rare fanfiction writer who has legitimate talent, could probably write some really good shit if he cut the self-insert bullshit. Except even his self-insert bullshit was famous enough to be remembered centuries after his death.

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>>49828016
fuck man, where is Sisko?

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> No one posted these two

I have another question. I'm writing a book- WAIT, WAIT AND ACTUALLY READ THIS DAMN YOU! After reading through this thread I'm debating about whether the character would be sueish even though we have established technically no. What my question is, is it sueish for a character to never fail if the character specifically avoids problems they are not comfortable with? Specifically, the character is an espionage agent for the government in a comic book world; knowing that he would get his ass whooped in straight fights, he never engages in them. If a bullet doesn't work he immediately runs away. Because of his "shoot it or run" mentality he never fails a mission. Is that sueish?

>>49827350
unless patty mcpattface ever finishes

>>49843054
Despite their power, they still faced adversity and some of their problems had to be handed to someone else, like the time rome sent an army of women to attack them.

>>49843054
The thing is that they're comedic devices by virtue of being pretty much invincible.
A lot of the comedy in the strip comes from the Romans trying to outsmart them and failing for many different reasons, as well as the gap between their near-omnipotence and their complete bungling incompetence as private persons.
Obelix is dumb as a rock and painfully naïve, for example, and there's a bit of meta-humor in that it always seems to not matter when the Romans try to take advantage of it.
If anything, they're deconstructions of comic-book Mary Sues - in the end, the Romans often manage to be more sympathetic simply because they legitimately try and then fail, compared to Asterix and Obelix, who're just short of retarded at times, sloppy, disorderly, irresponsible and yet still manage to win every single time.

>>49843168
If he absolutely never fails a mission, and in addition to this never encounters any complications with real consequences because of his strategies, he's a back-handed stealth Gary Stu.
If he completes his missions on paper but ends up bungling them in practice, for example letting an accomplice get away or letting the case leak to the media, he's not a Sue. Neither is he if his strategy gets successfully used against him - for example a villain who isn't immune to bullets, but just bites down the pain for a few seconds to have him run away and into a trap - he's not a Sue.

>>49843168
Not so long as the world pokes at his ribs for it, I guess.

>>49843168
As always, depend.
Avoiding fights should have adverse consequences at some points. Sometime it should be presented as a failure. Sometime getting intels isn't enough and your guy let something bad happen because he isn't willing to take any risk.

Also, someone may ultimately want to actively try to confront him if he's annoying somebody's plan. With a real fighter on his tail and being on the defensive without the comfort of preptime he may have a real hard time, effectively shutting down his operation for a time.

Again it depend on how you write it.

>>49843203
he never will. He's moved on to making dank memebux like georg RR

>>49830442
>it's more of a psychological drama, centered around Achilles struggling to re-define what his purpose is, why he fights, and why he follows the king of Mycenae despite the latter's weakness compared to him
that's a challenge m8

>>49843404
He never fails a mission in that he chooses his own missions and always chooses intelligence gathering. I type out sections here and there and as a for instance in one he goes in with the intention of downloading the database toanswer a question, but it never occurs to him that his lack of Russian will stop him. But based on the circumstances (guards in a specific uniform) he infers the answer anyway. So he failed to get the data, but answered the question the data was for. Objective complete. Also that is a great idea. One of the protag's main tactics is to decieve and bluff people, so getting bluffed in return would be hilarious turnabout.

>>49843484
I think I wasn't clear, but I didn't want to sperg about muh donut steel. It's not that he's a character, it's just that his training was very practical. If the villain is monologuing, shoot him. If he has the drop on someone, shoot them. If they have super powers and shooting them doesn't work, run the fuck away because super hearing ain't gonna do shit. He ends up taking a partner who does have super powers to shore up this weakness.

>>49827092
Yes, but it's important to note that that was just how 60s television did things. If Star Trek were being made for the first time today, it would have a much more balanced cast, though Shatner would still be the star.

>>49827429
so the metaphor was that you were posting as though you had as much understanding of what a straw man is as /tg/ has an understanding of what a Mary Sue reflects?

It's pretty meta and thin, but I get it. Like performance art that involves cutting off your own leg or some shit. Whack, yo.

>>49828422
Yeah but her competence is linked to the fact that she is literally representing a character who is autistic plus a jedi. Her social skills are lacking, while her knowledge skills are working out very well. Her physical skills might not even be that good.

>>49839107
that's a very sad pic you have here anon

>>49843953
hey remember when Rey picked up a lightsaber for the first time ever and instantly outdueled a Sith who was implied to be at least somewhat trained in its use, as well as having much much much more experience?

And how she just pulls random jedi powers out of her ass without any training, while every other Jedi including Anakin and Luke both required a lot of training to do so?

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>>49843953
Oh dear, you actually want to start this shit again.

She was too good at way too many things way too fast is the problem.

>>49844129

Luke had dick all training.

He knew Obi-wan for a hot minute, then spent three years figuring the rest of it out himself before finally meeting Yoda.

Despite that he was still able to game the Force to blow up the Death Star. A shot which everyone around him said was impossible, a shot the thirty year combat veteran who personally knew Anakin Skywalker actually fucked up attempting.

But Rey struggling with the mind trick and chumping a gothy Vader wannabe who was bleeding half to death is just an intolerable display of power levels.

If the original movie came out today, /tg/ would call Luke a Mary Sue.

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>>49844176
Trotting out all the retardation once more, I see.

>>49844176
People also generally forget that Rey and Luke didn't live the same life before the beginning of their journey.
Luke was a young farmer with a hobby in flying small atmospheric plane and had to do some repair on farmer stuff.
Rey was a scavenger with a much harsher life. I'm not saying Luke early years were sheltered, but it makes sense Rey would know a few more practical skills, like close combat.

>>49843375
This is one of the reasons why the Daltons were so proeminent in the latter lucky luke adventures (and additional material). It's always easier to root for the underdog, even when it's the bad guys
Lucky luke is probaly the bd hero closest to sue status, even if he's usually the butt of a few jokes in each album.

>>49838113
> We suspected Hydra was up to something and after 45 minutes we confirmed they may if fact be up to something.
I kekked.

>>49827092
>Picard exists
Hilarious.

For those wanting something to read, and since this site thinks every link is spam:
http://pastebin.com/DWbeTQn5

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>>49829316
>fixed in their nature
>forces of nature
what can change the nature of man?

>>49845044
Well, OP will always be a fag, so not much.

>>49839180
At least Chaucer had the sense of humor to have his self-insert get shouted down for being boring.

>>49831545
This is not the usually cited definition, but it is the best one. Every other trait listed is a side effect of this.

>>49843953
Try not thinking in terms of flaws but in terms of wins.
The more wins she has and the more contrived they are the more your Sue meters go off.
She knows how to repair the millenium falcon. Low contrivance, she's a junker, you can sort of imagine her being good at fixing things.
She Jedi mindtricks her way out of prison. Extremely high contrivance, not only is the force attunement just given to her by the plot she, she stretches the power to do things never before shown to be within the confines of jedi mindtricks.
Flaws paint a distorted picture. If a flaw never results in an uncomfortable position or setback it's just a character quirk.

>>49845462
>>49844378
I read the novelization and she wasn't too sueish until the Jedi shit started happening. In the book her people live by scavenging off scuttled battlecruisers. In her spare time Rei plays around in a fighter pilot simulator. She also sometimes has to fight for her finds, and she's a woman surrounded by tentacle monsters, so her fighting can be explained. In the book she and Han talk about why the ship is fucked; the junker she sold salvage to aquired the Falcon and installed a turbo drive. Being the nosy shit she is, Rei knew about this. Han is flabbergasted about why anyone would install it because it fucks up the ship's operations, Rei agrees, they continue pissing their pants. Being a little stressed, Han forgets about the part when he's trying to deass the ship and she reminds him. (I never understood why Han just abandoned the big ship. Wasn't it his? How does he just fly away from something the cost of a third world planet?)

It's during the meeting in the smuggler castle that Rei gets sueish. The smuggler queen immediately likes her; she starts having visions; she out runs and out guns trained soldiers; she wins a force tug of war with Kylo. It was ignorable until right then.

>>49845462
This.
Jack Sparrow is living deus ex but he still got taken to Davy Jones' locker, and he arguably hasn't ever won, only stole victories from others.

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>>49829648
>Jack Harkness get off the interwebs.
Wrong guy for Trek I think you mean pic related.

>>49847906
Woulda been nice if any of that shit was mentioned in the actual fucking movie. I shouldn't have to read a book for a movie to be explained.

>>49827280
>>49827403
Thanks anons. Good definition.

>>49828422
Rey's literally just Luke with less family members except she actually displays combat experience before mowing down a dozen stormtroopers.

>>49850465
I think a good part of Luke feeling less Sueish than Rey is due to Hamil looking frightened out of his pants for most of ANH/ESB while Rey looks like the average smug emotionless hollywood action girl.

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>>49851246
While I like Luke and everything, I did find it kind of odd how he could competently fly a X-wing at the end of ANH. Sure the force helped him make the shot but I don't think the force told him how to initiate lift off or switch to attack formation.

So either X-wings are stupidly easy to fly if you are familiar with the basic speeder or his X-wing was mostly piloted by R2D2.

>>49851246
Luke also escapes from a whole battalion of stormies with Leia on the Death Star, too.

O'course those ones were apparently "letting them go" so it might just be that.

>>49851442
This gets explained every staw wars thread. The X-Wing was made by the same peiple who made some civilian craft, and that company intentionally made their controls similar so that civvies who joined the rebellion and had flight experience in the civlian craft couldilot the fighter.

>>49851811
Still an ex post explanation from outside the movie, like >>49850307 said:
> I shouldn't have to read a book for a movie to be explained.

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>>49841050
Taking all this into account, this is an excellent explanation for why pic related is so hated. Most egregiously, the characters all begin acting OOC whenever he's around in order to maintain the character he's talked up to be.

It all comes down to how much the narrative has to bend over backward to contrive a way for him to continue succeeding after the player beats him.
>Foil his (clumsy) assassination attempt.
>All your team members forget they have guns except Shepard, who now can't aim worth a damn, so that he can escape.
>Go to a war-torn planet to retrieve a plot token.
>He shows up after you.
>But also got there early to assassinate the scientists somehow?
>Announces his entrance.
>Everybody lets him monologue despite having no reason to be interested in what he's saying.
>Fight commences.
>Kick his ass.
>Immediately followed by a cutscene of your team flailing about incompetently, him tossing them aside and knocking Shepard into a pit while the ground starts to crumble.
>Whole area is crumbling from explosives, none of your people can keep their footing.
>Kai fucking Leng walks through it with no trouble.
>Sends you a Coldsteel the Edgehog-tier message to gloat afteward.
>Game tries to play him up as a "worthy adversary" for Shepard.
>Even though every meeting with him results in you handing him his ass in the fight then turning retarded in the cutscene afteward.

Frankly, Kai Leng is the perfect example of a recent Villain Sue.

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I wish we could have one Mary Sue thread that doesn't devolve into talking about an overrated sci-fi series that no one cares about anymore.

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>>49844146
>This whole image
>"I can make my criticisms sound reasonable no matter how adequately explained they are if I just tack 'instantly' onto everything."

wew

>>49851733
Actually I just attributed that to the empire being fucking incompetent. I thought that was a given for star wars

>>49851961
Firefly?

>>49851877
I mean it's kind of explained. There's a whole deleted scene with biggs and red leader to establish "yes, luke can fly a plane"

>>49827280
A mary sue doesn't have to have any of these qualities, and doesn't have to be an author insert.

A mary sue is simply a character to whom an unreasonable portion of the author's effort or concern is devoted, in such a way that the story is affected negatively. She receives an implausible amount of attention from the author relative to her role in the story - if she is a main character, then she is the subject of more paragraphs than a main character would normally be the subject of.

This holds even if bad things constantly happen to the sue, even if she is incompetent or boring. All that matters is that it's obvious the author considers this character foremost above all others, regardless of what that consideration results in.

Of course, intention is hard to prove in all but the most blatant and trivial cases. The other attributes provided in the thread are symptoms of the disease, and are usually reliable indicators.

>>49843847
You seem OK with the protag getting bluffing turned against him, which is a good sign that you're not just writing to make him look as awesome as possible.

>>49827941
>ill take what is One Punch Man for $500 Alex.

>>49852125
The word instantly is important, because it wouldn't matter so much if those things happened over time.

>>49852442
What is comedy/parody, you dumb faggot?

>>49851877
It was said several times in the movie that Luke is already a pilot. And it's movie logic that if you you're a pilot, you can fly any air/spacecraft.

>>49827403
Mary sues don't have to be self-inserts. Plenty exist in their own canon. Hermoine for example.

>>49852442
OPM sucks because Saitama can't lose.

>>49852471
It's misleading, though, except in the cases where it's straight-up inaccurate. The Resistance "instantly" trusts her because she's gone to great personal risk to deliver vital information to them, and then further to help destroy an imminent threat to their survival. She doesn't "instantly" know all these Force abilities, she exploits one to escape and Kylo Ren explicitly tells his forces that she's "experimenting" and "testing her boundaries" and that they need to capture her quickly before she develops more. She's not "instantly" skilled with a lightsaber; the fight against Kylo Ren is two novices fighting in desperation, and the only reason she doesn't get BTFO by him is because he's nursing a serious wound.

And that's not even getting into how many of those complaints are just the creator whining because narrative convenience applies to a character they dislike just as much as it applies to those they do.

>>49852515
she should have hooked up with harry

>>49829038
They're all written by women.

>>49852536
OPM isn't about Saitama, and you're retarded if you think the conflict comes from the fights.

>>49827525
Kerrigan from Starcraft 2.

>>49829860
How the fuck is being "buxom" (kek) unfeminine?

>>49832042
Yes, a good way to not write a sue is to write a normal human being. Gee, who would have fucking guessed. Newsflash, the vast majority of people do not lead interesting, fulfilling, or happy lives, and will not be mourned or missed after they're gone.

>>49832144
>t. bitter faggots who still can't figure out how to simply write a regular person

>>49833028
Or do I?

>>49833165
wesley only had da vinci level assests because he was a mary sue.

da vinci was a real person. real life is not bound by the rules of fiction. if da vinci was a fictional character, then he would be a mary sue.

>>49827333

A guy that is 6'2" and 163 lbs is a fucking lanklet. When I was at peak fitness in the Marines I weighed in at about 185 and I'm 6'0."

Your dude should really be coming in around 180 if he's otter mode and 200-210 if he looks like he just got back from the gun show.

>>49833165
You're right, when that asshole set fire to the ship, we shouldn't have kicked him out of the navy and pressed charges. We should've promoted the fucker!

>>49836965
just mediocre. doesn't even approach the worst.

>>49852868
Nowadays "feminine" means those skinny models that faggot fashion designers like, and therefore is evil machismo mysoginy because "real women" have "curves".

>>49853451
Are you just typing buzzwords because you like the sound that your keyboard makes?

Breasts are a female secondary sexual characteristic. They're intrinsically feminine.

>>49853470
Not to the tumblr landwhales who push around their (gratuituous) weight on every nerd forum ever, fucking up the narrative for everyone else.

>>49853682
Yes, even to them.

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>>49853233

You asked for it

File: tg's sue part 2.5.jpg (753KB, 497x3000px) Image search: [Google]

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>>49853789

>You will have my infinite respect if you can read these without having your eyes melt

>>49853759
Then why do they celebrate whenever a comic book character gets a masectomy?
Fuck off tumblrina, we know your ways.

>>49853789
As I said. This is about 3 out of 10 sues on a logarithmic scale.

>>49853803
Do they?

>>49853789
How is she three halves?

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>>49853807

Has the bar risen that much since then?

Does this mean we get to make another super sue?

>>49853822
let's do it anyway anon
go fukken nuts

>>49853822
If you want, I suppose. Seems tedious to me.

>>49838900
Traits do not a Mary Sue make. It's all in how you handle said traits.