I've been running a campaign in Pathfinder, and am considering

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>>49805898
>most of the monsters at my player's CR would require me to throw 8+ of them at my players in order to pose any kind of a challenge

>>49805919
Sorry, should have been more clear. My players are heading into a dragon's lair, and all of the thematically apropriate monsters (kobolds, mostly) are way underpowered compared to my players. On top of that, there's no way to make monsters with class levels like in PF.
Also, I'm stealing that image.

>>49806006

I see, you're problem is that you're kind of dumb.

Is your big plan in Pathfinder to give all the kobolds class levels? That's really stupid.

Why should kobolds be a challenge for high level players in anything but overwhelming hordes anyway?

Theoretically, you could take a higher level monster and reskin it as a kobold. If you insist on this ridiculous idea that the party should face 20 kobolds in a dungeon as a challenge instead of 2000 kobolds.

>>49806232
>High Level
These characters are level 4, anon. And why, exactly is giving kobolds class levels a bad idea?

>>49806260

>heading into a dragon's lair
>level 4

But why?

>what's wrong with giving kobolds class levels

Class levels represent a serious amount of training and effort into doing something, which is why only a small percentage of any population has class levels. One kobold sorcerer with like two or three barbarians or whatever as enforcers? Fine. A whole kobold town with class levels? Absolute nonsense.

>>49806341
>But why?
A Deadly encounter for a party of 6 at 4th level is 3,000 exp. A Young White Dragon is worth 2,300 exp. Why not?
>A whole kobold town with class levels doesn't make sense.
Yes, but this isn't a kobold town. The creatures populating the dragon's lair are the dragon's chosen agents, and as such could be expected to be of a higher caliber than average.

>>49806442
Then just bump up their stats a bit
You don't have to directly follow the monster manual

>>49806341
>what are NPC classes
Kobolds are a 'no role' race, which means that they are literally MEANT to be given class levels to improve upon their nature. Humans, orcs, gnomes, goblins, all of them are no role race.

What you are suggesting is that humans with NPC classes are also stupid. Every human should have no class levels, except a tiny percentage of the population.

Which is absolute nonsense.

>>49806457
I don't trust myself nearly enough to make a monster that isn't either broken as fuck or completely useless.

>>49806509
>i can't have a kobold deal 1 dice more than usual
>i can't add 5 to AC
>i can't give +3 to each ability

>>49806509
Then either throw a kobold horde at them, or use a different monster

>>49806542
I do have to effectively quardruple their CR, and even then I'll be throwing 8+ at them per encounter.

>>49806582
Then don't use kobolds

>>49806582
use a different monster

a dragon can enslave a lot of monsters

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Kobold

>Despite being physically weak, however, kobolds are also described as capable trapsmiths, and are known for creating traps to protect their lairs and dungeons (a habit that is usually ignored or underplayed by most DMs).

How about being creative instead of throwing fights at the players?

>>49806582
>Throw a kobold horde at them
48 KOBOLDS PER ENCOUNTER
THE CRAZY TRAIN JUST KEEPS GOING
>Throw another monster at them
But none of them make sense in the context of the adventure.

>>49806631
see
>>49806623

>>49806631
why can't you throw another monster?

also, just give the kobolds more power, or >>49806623

>>49806623
Certainly, there will be traps. But I can't have a dungeon with just traps.
>>49806646
>Give the kobolds more power
Again, tell me how I'm supposed to quadruple the kobold's power, and I'll do it.

>>49806582
>>49806631
Why not throw in a handful of Kobolds, but add in other things like traps or giant lizards?

Also, in 5e, CR scales by the number of enemies. At a certain point, a dozen kobolds will still be a sizable challenge at level 4 due to sheer numbers.

If you have doubt, just reskin. Use a Dwarven guard or something and call it a Kobold Dragonshield, trusted enforcers of the dragons who have dragonscale bucklers and are generally tougher or something. 5e also has spellcasters of decent CR that you could throw in some of, like reskinning a mage into a kobold frost sorcerer, along with a couple of normal kobolds to help run interference.

You have more options here than just adding more kobolds. Why are you afraid of taking one thing and calling it another?

>>49806708
>tell me how I'm supposed to quadruple the kobold's power, and I'll do it.
add more dice to its attack, add more to AC, add more to it's abilities, add more armour/weapons/make one a spellcaster

>>49806006
Use NPC stat blocks from the MM (scouts, berserkers, etc.) with kobold racials given in the DMG. Or ignore the racials and use the NPC stat blocks as-is, works out well either way.

>>49806708
>But I can't have a dungeon with just traps.
Yes you can
Having a dungeon with traps that cause the players to actually think instead of mindlessly fighting beefed up kobolds is infinitely more interesting and fun than mindlessly fighting beefed up kobolds

>>49806712
>Use a Dwarven Guard or something and call it a Kobold Dragonshield.
I would, but there are about 20 NPCs in the DMG, and they all share the same problem of being massively over or underleveled. Of course, I could just make some NPCs, but 5e has no rules for giving NPCs CR.

>>49806773
>5e has no rules for giving NPCs CR
They're in the DMG, pg. 275 iirc. Avoid giving NPCs class levels whenever possible, just give the abilities they need and calculate CR.

>>49806773
you don't need CR. The players aren't going to know or care

ITT: shitty gm that doesn't know how to plan shitty encounters

If you want a hard encounter with just Kobolds, you're gonna need about 20 Kobolds and 5 Winged Kobolds.

What I would do instead is have a few encounters with just regular Kobolds, maybe a few winged Kobolds, then finally have a fight with about 6 regular Kobolds, 5 winged kobolds and two "special" Kobolds that use Berserker stats.

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>>49806773
>they all share the same problem of being massively over or underleveled

Here OP, don't be afraid to use other monster's stats and just say they're Big-Ass-Kobolds or something.

http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

>>49806773
Trust me, those NPCS aren't that over or underleveled.

One single CR 4 monster in 5e is supposed to be a typical challenge for a party of level 4 PCs. Throwing a pair of CR 2s at them or a CR 3 with some CR 1/2s is going to give you something similar.

This isn't like 3.5 where something being 1 CR too high or low will make it deadly or laughable. The numbers work so that low level things can still hit them, and the advantage of numbers will help make up the difference.

You should not be having this much trouble finding a random humanoid and throwing a few of them at the party while calling them kobolds.

OP you're an idiot
The whole point of kobolds is that they're a shitty cannon fodder race that only exists to slow the PCs down.
Play up their strengths. They're good at making traps, not hitting things with sticks. Have the focus of the dungeon be avoiding traps with some encounters against regular kobolds as they get further and further into the dungeon.
End it with the dragon fight

It will be more fun than "after the 6th encounter with the same enemy we fought the dragon"

>>49806847
3.5 CR is also wildly inconsistent with itself. For example, the CR 3 monstrous crab.

>>49806863
>>49806749
>Alright, Fighter, Paladin, Bezerker, put your character sheets away. You won't be needed for this dungeon.

>>49806899
>a fighter and a paladin are equally good at escaping/avoiding traps

>>49806922
>Just write your reflex save on the back of your hand, and roll when I tell you.

>>49806899
Sure, if you only fill the dungeon with traps that will require the rogue to roll a dice and disarm it it'll suck.
It's obvious you don't have a sembleance of imagination if you can't come up with a trap scenario where martial classes will be relevant. Remind me to never play in one of your games because it sounds pretty shit.

>>49806941
If you want to play it like a miniature based small scale war game instead of a role playing game go play 4e

>>49806933
you said you're going to 5e, right?

also,
>traps are just random stuff that players need to reflexively avoid

>>49806941
>kobolds with no magical abilities are going to pull unique and creative traps out their reptilian asses

>>49806978
read the manual, dude

>>49806978
Yes, because that is what they do. Kobolds make creative traps, but everyone seems to forget this.

>>49807000
>>49807004
I'd certainly say the examples of traps listed in the DMG are inventive, but both of them seem to be the "save for half damage variety"

>>49807018
Sorry, MM.

>>49807018
>>49807035
you can make up traps, you know

>>49807018
>oozes and centipede swarms are save for half damage traps
Holy shit 3.pf has rendered your brain retarded.

>>49807018
Put the fucking books away, this is a problem that every GM has at one point, never putting the book away.

Make it up.
It sounds daunting at first, but actually using your imagination will make everything better for both you and your players.

>>49807042
>>49807052
I'm not saying making up traps is impossible, I'm just saying that given the resources the kobolds have, any trap they're going to make is of the "save or take half damage" variety.
No one's going to sell magic items and they don't get to decide the layout of the town they're holed up in.

>>49807106
>town
Since when is a town a dragons lair

>>49807043
>oozes
It's just listed as "slime", anon.
>centipedes
Fair, but it did state that the crates were thrown AT the players.

>>49807106
but they're minions to a dragon

Dragons hoard

>>49807115
Since the dragon slaughtered all the inhabitants.

>>49807143
and there's no shop, smithy, and church to plunder for cool trap-making shit?

also, you don't have to create back stories for everything. kobolds could just make some fucking traps

>>49807143
Why is the dragon holed up in some shit town that can be approached at from any angle, and doesn't provide enough protection to it's treasure horde.

If it was recently acquisition why did it leave his old horde? If it wasn't, then why haven't the kobolds created traps.

Your story sounds pretty dumb anon

>>49807181
>Approached from any angle
It's high in the mountains, anon.
>Why did the dragon leave it's old horde?
It didn't have one. Hence sacking the town.
>Your story sounds pretty dumb anon
Fair

>>49807209
What motivation is there to slay the dragon that requires them to go up to this dangerous town that was for some reason built high in the mountains (which makes no sense trade route wise) instead of constructing a large ballista or waiting for the dragon to swoop down and then killing it that way.

>>49806978
It's not that hard to think of traps that the warriors in the party could help with while others wouldn't.

A simple one, have a porticulus or gate drop down to trap them in a dangerous room and have them need to lift and hold it to get them out. Or have the kobolds build a giant wall-like battering ram that they're trying to trap and crush the party with, and have the fighter hold it off while the rogue gets the door.

Honestly, it sounds like Kobolds would be more creative DMs than you at this point.

>>49807238
Because it holds a piece of the MacGuffin in it's lair.
I never said my campaign was original.

>>49807256
Don't know how else I can help you anon
Use your imagination from now on, don't rely on books to create encounters or traps or the story

>>49807250
Where would they get the resources to construct such apparatuses?

>>49807313
>i need to obsessively backstory everything

they get them from the town, dumbfuck

>>49807313
Mate
You're worrying about the resources for traps when you've dug yourself into the [no creativity zone] with your dragon lair scenario. Who gives a fuck, just roll with it and make something memorable.

>>49807324
>Construct a wall surrounding the town
>Construct a portcullis
>Within a week.
Fuck it, PF it is

>>49807338
Yeah, I guess I'm just worrying too much about something players probably aren't going to give two shits about regardless. At this point, I'm just arguing for the sake of argument anyway.

>>49807352
>Construct a wall surrounding the town
why?
why the fuck does it have to surround the town?

they can dig a pit, or use one of the lovely houses already pre-built for them in the town by you, the GM!

>>49807352
Your fault for digging yourself into the
[no creativity zone] with your shitty scenario
Why'd you come here for advice if you'd just ignore literally all of it.

>>49807352
You literally states a few posts ago the town is on a mountain
Why does it need a wall if there are probably only a few safe ways to reach it.

>>49805898
Does anyone have a non-shit Kobold homebrew race?

>>49807543
Why would you want to play as cannon fodder?

>>49807650
oh god not this shit again

>>49807650
For the last time Dave,I am not going to ERP as a cannonball with you again.

>>49807770
I'm not entirely sure I want to know, but how would that even work?

>>49807837
Tell me you don't see the innuendo in stuffing a big ball into a bigger tube that then explodes.

>>49807900
No, but I do now.

>>49807313
They're living in a cave on a mountain, and you're worried about where they might get basic things like wood and stone?

You have tons of options. You could say that the dragon used it's intellect to have them mine and forge iron for heavy iron gates. You could have it be from an old fort or dwarven cave in the region that they simply took over when it was abandoned.

Stop asking questions and start throwing out answers. The sooner you do that, you'll have more ideas than you know what to do with.

The answers we've been giving you have provided far more interesting opportunities than simply stuffing 40 kobolds in a cave with a dragon behind them and calling it a dungeon.

It's a fantasy game. Not every kobold lair is going to be the same. It might have belonged to someone else. The kobolds might have some help from the dragon they're serving. Maybe they've been clever enough to enslave some large wildlife.

Literally just think of anything else that could reasonably be found on or in a mountain in a fantasy world and you've solved half of the issues with your dungeon being boring and unchallenging.

Do you have a single creative bone in your body?

>>49806260
Then kobolds are still a threat in numbers. They can hit the party's AC, they can do damage, and won't instantly melt from the party's spells.

>>49807981
no

WotC just put out an Encounter Building UA this month.

A 4th-level character is the equivalent of 8 CR 1/8 monsters, 4 CR 1/4, 2 CR 1/2, 1 CR 1, 1/2 CR 2, 1/4 CR 3, or 1/6 CR 4.

You could also give your monsters lair actions and legendary actions.


Also, stop being such a shit DM.

>I wanna switch to a system but I'm scared
>I wanna make these monsters stronger but I'm scared
>I'm scared to not fix exactly to CR tables

Jesus christ just DM for once in your life

Sup being a stupid piece of shit OP.

>>49806006
>there's no way to make monsters with class levels like in PF
Isn't a book for monster PCs coming out in like a month?

>>49805898
>I've been running a campaign in Pathfinder, and am considering transferring the campaign to 5e
No, no, nononononononono, no
They're different genres, 5e is tuned down a lot, PF is more high fantasy/superhero/powerful etc than 5e.

You're basically changing from top tier Avengers dealing with Tanos and company during Anihilation to Marvel Knights with Daredevil and Iron Fist fighting the Mafia in the Streets of NY.

>inb4 5e is more balanced, easier and simpler
Not denying it, but start a new game, don't translate it, everytime I see a game from 3.PF translated to 5e 99% of players had a bad time because their chars didn't do 1/1000 of what they could do before

>>49806957
If you want to play a dungeon crawling rpg that has rules that actually work, and where changing the levels of the monsters is a breeze, it might not be a bad idea.

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>>49805898
Nice bait, anon. If it isn't, you're really scaring me with your inability to deviate slightly from what the rulebook presents, or at least rationalise perfectly fine suggestions. I'm not sure how you've DMed anything up until this point.

I'm just lost.

>>49806899
Dungeons should mostly be puzzles and traps. Overworld is where most of the fighting should happen.