What is a fighter supposed to be thematically? Like a Paladin

>>49799631
A dude who fights bad things with sharp things. Or blunt things. Or pointy things.

He fights.

Ex-Soldier or Mercenary I imagine.

A soldier I guess, hence the usual focus on training and pure combat/tactical know-how
not sure if it really translates 1:1 into crunch or if it makes a lot of sense for a fantasy hero adventurer, but I think that's the starting point

>>49799631
Guy with a sword who stood in front of your hobbit and mage and killed trash mobs in dungeons. Back when every player had his own party and you didn't bother giving names to your characters until they had at least 50 hit points.

>>49799631
Fighters were a class before there were themed classes. In 1977, there was Fighter, Magic User, and Cleric. Their core mechanics were hit stuff, cast utility spells, and cast support spells (because 0D&D is based on a wargame called Chainmail).

In later editions you got themed classes. A Thief is a fighter who gets specializations. A paladin is a cleric with more armor and less spells. A barbarian is a fighter with less armor. Etc.

>>49799667
Pretty much this.
The defition fighter isn't very specific.
Anyone who just throws blows with a sword is a fighter.
Warrior is a caste class, while a fighter can be absolute anythign.

>>49799894
This makes want to try a system with branching classes. You start as Fighter/Mage/Priest, max out your level in that and then move on to a specialst class you've unlocked.

>>49799959
It's not that hard to pull off. I made one a as kind of a Windows 1.0 to 3e's DOS. Everyone started as an adventurer, who had some skills, spells and fight in him, then after 5 levels got to pick their path down one of the 5-level specialization branches. It's an easy way to create a system with many real character options but little vertical scaling.

>>49799631
>What is a fighter supposed to be thematically?
A fighting man

Pretty simple- while the Paladins, Rangers, Barbarians are all great warriors, they lack the versatility in the martial arts. If their usual way of fighting (sword+shield, dual wield, GREATAXE) fails, they have to go magical or rely on simply being fucking strong. Fighters, on the other hand, can try another thing. In 5e, Champion Fighters with multiple fighting styles could switch from a Greatsword to Twin Warhammers against an certain enemy, or stay back and pepper the foe with arrows or crossbow bolts. Eldritch Knights mix magic up with their sword swings, saving allies and blasting foes. Battlemasters will outdamage their foe and control them through use of tactics. Outside of full casters, Fighters are probably the most versatile.

>>49799959
It's entirely doable, though it's definitely a "gamey" progression.

>>49801047
Levels are a gamey progression

>>49801047
A little bit. No worse than classes in general though. Well, maybe a little more gamey.

And it's not like it's entirely divorced from reality. You need to study generalities before you can dig deep into specialisations.
You have to learn basic punches before you're going to be taught the advanced shit in a martial art.
No point teaching someone about how a nuclear reactor works without a generic grounding in physics.

>>49799631
Thematically they're the class you take when you roll shit stats and want something that'll die fast so that you can roll up something more interesting; it's criminal that it got adapted for later versions, it's a shit class.

I like the 3.5 TOME Fighter and Knight classes, they both have some Weaboo Fightan Magic that defines them rather that just 'hittin' stuff better'.

>>49799631
Some one who didn't roll high enough to be anything else while not rolling lower than a 5 for anything but int.

>>49799631
You mean in DnD? Hard to say, I don't think theres ever been a codified 'this is what all the classes are' thing that every edition works off of. So they've been re imagined alot of different ways and since those are all official none of them are wrong, some are just worse then others.

>>49801704
If all martial classes were to use a form of weeaboo fightan magic like ki or odic force or whatever...
Would a martial class that manages to achieve similar results with sheer skill, practice and muscles make sense? Because that sounds pretty cool to my mind. Even if it was somewhat underpowered.

the fighter is a warrior (any kind of warrior)
n e w fa g g o ts

this might be the most retarded thread on tg
a fighter is any archetype cuz no two fighters are the same
if you spend your fighter feats on properly min maxing damage or weaboo fighting martial studdy feats or learned spells then you can make basicly any character you want out of a fighter

fukc

>>49799631
>Classes have predefined themes
>Multiple classes can't have overlapping themes
Shit taste. I bet characters in your game also openly discuss their "class" too.

A good party isn't a fighter, a wizard, and a rogue. A good party is a smuggler from terribly wartorn lands who spent her whole life defending their caravan with steel and skill until the day she found that the rush of battle was a far stronger drug, a scholar in exile attempting to repent for the magical experiment that cost his daughter's life, and an ex-nobleman from an exotic land who's only real skill was lying and knowing his way around a vial of poison but always dreamed of becoming a knight.

>>49802411
Certain game mechanics in D&D are recognized as fundamental in-universe concepts

>>49802039
I don't know, I sort of like the idea of being able to play a totally nonmagical fighter, but I also sympathize with not balancing things against magic. In a world where there is ki to control, or magic in general, why should somebody who doesn't take advantage of that part of nature succeed as much as someone who does. It'd be like playing a guy who uses only two arms in a universe where everybody's got 4 arms. Why create an excuse as to why he can perform at the same level as everybody else?

I have no compunctions about the power of magic in my setting. It is what it is, and whether or not you respect it is up to you.

>>49799631
What edition dipshit?

In 5e they're mostly just super trained soldiers, as opposed to Barbarians using inner talent for murder.

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>>49799959
Might and Magic did something like that and pulled it off well. I figure if I actually had a group to GM for I'd try to work something like that in, since it actually feels better than "Yay another level now my wizard arbitrarily invents fireball!"

I was thinking something along the lines of
>Fighter (hits shit)
*>Paladin (hits shit and heals bros)
**>Bladesaint (focuses on hitting shit and healing)
**>Battlemage (Focuses on hitting shit and has a few weak offensive spells)
*>Knight (Hits shit harder and can wear heavier armor)
**>Black Knight (Causes status debuffs by being fucking terrifying, and can become a lich. No spells though)
**>White Knight (Causes buffs to allies and can smite evil through sheer presence, can be granted immortality if a god likes them enough)
*>Barbarian (Hits shit with his cock because he's naked and it's huge)
**>Wanderer (Loads of buffs to utility type things that rewards creative play)
**>Adventurer (Can wear more armor than a normal barb, but also has some thieflike skills)

>Mage (Has basic healing spells and basic combat spells)
*>Wizard (focus on combat spells)
**>Archmage (Massive fireball; massive damage)
**>Lich (I might look like I'm all alone but PORTABLE HOLE FULL OF SKELETONS ON THE CIELING!)
*>Cleric (focuses on healing)
**>Priest (Healbot mode activated, +1 gorrillion hp)
**>Cultist (Above all else, heal their eyes shut.)
*>Druid (no focus, jack of everyone loves trees)
**>Archdruid (just a better Druid. Combat and healbot spells are above Cleric and Wizard Levels, but don't match to Archmagi or Priests.)
**>Beastmaster (The trees speak to me and say... squirrels attack!)

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>>49802611
>Thief (This tree is for skillmonkeys to climb on!)
*>Rogue (Specializes in stealing shit from fuckers)
**>Thief lord (I AM THE NIGHT)
**>Villain/Hero (Somehow always makes his dashing escape even though by all rights someone that fucking loud ought to have been caught by now)
*>Highwayman (Knows which part of the sword is pointy.)
**>Swashbuckler (Likes cutlasses, eyepatches, and booty of all sorts)
**>Assassin (Likes daggers, the moon, and silently slitting the throat of everyone with two eyes and a nose.)
*>Bard (Likes pussy)
**>Infiltrator (Gets pussy by pretending to be a pussy magnet)
**>Politician (Gets pussy by actually being a pussy magnet)

Of course, the end of the upgrade tree here ought to be both hard to reach and also kind of OP compared to the initial classes. I'm thinking there should be a level limit to each tier of upgrade, and also probably a quest, which is how M&M did it and that worked nicely.

Its probably horribly unbalanced; I haven't put a load of thought into how to actually make it work yet. but it is relevant to the thread, so I figured I'd throw it out there.

>>49802425
Let me guess, FR?

The fighter can be any alignment, any social class, any guy in the world. He just has to pick up a sword. He can be the hero, anti hero, villain, tactical genius, nutjob with an ego, pick a trop and the fighter can be it. You can have a party with 5 specialist wizards, but a party with 5 fighters focusing on different things will be vastly different and way more fun. Fighters are hard mode, and the most satisfying character to get to high level.

>>49802425
depends on the setting
(not in any good ones)

>>49799631
He's the guy who gets knocked down everytime...but he keeps getting up till he wins

Is the fighter suppose to be like Kenshin who's useless without his sword? Frankly I'm disappointed that the fighter can't naturally fight with his bare hands. He doesn't have to punch magic like a monk but having a knight who punch dudes when his weapons are taken from him should be the standard.

>>49804579
>implying full BAB progressions don't get improved unarmed strike for free

>>49804614

It normally hasn't but I would totally allow it. I mean, I'm a god damn fighter. My job description is in my fucking name. If I could only do that with swords then I should be called a sworder.

>>49804579
For free? no, but if he invests a little he's a better unarmed combatant than a monk easily. In 3.5 improved unarmed combat and superior unarmed combat are enough.

In PF there's several archetypes (Brawler and Unarmed fighter) that are pretty boss.

>>49804579
A fighter is supposed to be like Musashi, pushing boundaries of sword techniques and winning duels with boat oars when necessary.

>>49804772

Superior Unarmed Combat came out of Bo9S didn't it? Man I hope we get an offical version of it somehow.

>>49804806
Indeed, however you hand to hand combat should always be a feature of people who fight for a living. If all you do is sword then then clearly you don't fight for a living (unless you're a duelist/gladiator)

>>49804837
?? Bo9S is official, anon

>>49804855

A version for 5e

>>49804866
In 5e you deal 1+Str and dont provoke AoO, is not great but it's something, tavern brawler rises it to 1d4+Str, but that's it.

I just have paladins, rangers, barbarians, and everyone else that swings a sword be fighters.

>>49799631
Soldier
Gladiator
Sellsword

>>49801704
I like playing fighters, I've done it twice and enjoyed it. Something about being an out classed but skilled normie in a world of wizards and monster is appealing to me. Not a special snowflake favored by the gods or chosen one born innate talent, just a guy who worked for it and does the best he can. Plan ahead, come prepared, run from a bad fight, don't start trouble I can't match, and once the shit hits the fan never relent until you run or die, no half measures and no time for mercy or flair when it gets bloody.

That said those characters still don't live long, D&D games are made for magic.

>>49804993
>2+Int
>"Skilled normie"

>>49799631
A sell sword, a soldier, even a knight.

The classes of old D&D had progressions that gave you a title every time you leveled up, so that a fighter would start as, say, a squire and end up a warlord.

>>49804913
Bonus action grapple is badass though, and monks have 1d4 unarmed damage for a long time.

>>49805011
Can't tell me martials aren't closer to normies than magic users.

>>49804993
Now I'm imagining a system where there's a "normie fighter" class as the only fully nonmagical one that has to rely on stuff like alchemist's fire, mundane traps and toxins along with combat techniques.

>>49799959
This is sort of how Dragon Age (and maybe Fantasy Age, not sure) works, unlocking certain specializations at certain levels. It's not a perfect system but it's fun enough

>>49805081

An idea I had in that vain was that magic weapons, while known of, were so rare as to be legendary so most weapon effects were created via more mundane means with alchemy;

Special oils that stick to the blade like a gel and ignites with scrapped with a special stone. Axes with cables connecting them to large batteries, Mauls with cooling coils and heads made with special metals that don't weaken when made cold, etc.

Achilles would probably be the archetype for fighter.
Maybe Goliath, or Odysseus would fit.
Gilgamesh seems a reach.

>>49805155
In AD&D a sixth level fighter was called a 'myrmidon'

A soldier, gladiator, bandit, guard, or mercenary. A person who is militant to some degree. Not for any ideal but because that's just how they conduct themselves.

>>49805177

Huh, I didn't know that, but that definitely lends my Achilles proposal some credit.

>>49805244
8th level was 'superhero'

9th was Lord, once you climbed up the ranks that high, you were gained natural authority

>>49799631
>What is a fighter supposed to be thematically?
A miserable pile of feats

>>49805081
The fighters I played that I was mentioning there were a bit like that. One more than the other, he was a skilled outlander and caravan guard, great bow skills, and extensive knowledge of the natural world. Harvested toxins from plants and animals to coat his arrows, relied on ambush attacks and traps to give an advantage.

The other had a grudge against mages and their like, collected enchanted gear specialized for anti-magic warding or spell cancels. Had zero talent for magic, but understood it enough to find the blindspot and take down casters well out of his class in any standup fight.

>>49799842

Most underrated post in the thread.

>>49805432
I hesitate to ask, but are you sure the first one wasnt just a ranger?

>>49805503
Yes, he didn't have a scrap of magic and no Snow White animal friends. Was a fighter build that just lived a Ranger-ish life.

>>49799631
The trained martial artist.

I think that the best way to create a Fighter archetype is someone that is skilled at fighting but not in an specific style but rather in the generalities of fighting - maintaing proper distance, how to move around safely in the battlefield without being repeatdly stabbed, how to draw enemy attention away from your allies... He can use any weapon he wants, but the key thing lies on how deep is his knowledge of the art of fighting beyond styles. Naturally there's going to be style specifications, but any Fighter should be able to have different sorts of battlefield control - a menacing presence not because they can channel divine powers or get really pissed, but because they have a finesse to their fighting that lies on the basics of it.

>>49799842
/thread

>>49802411
Putting that much thought into a D&D campaign is mostly a waste of time and energy.

People don't sit down to play a smuggler, a scholar, or an ex-nobleman going through their own character arcs, they sit down to run a dungeon crawler where the aim of the game is to fuck bitches and get money.

The only edition I've played where the rules for mechanics didn't outweigh the fluff was 5e, and even that game is kinda restrictive in comparison to more abstract games like nWoD or PbtA.

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>>49799842
This pretty much
The Fighter is a holdover from the war game day's and has no place in the game in its modern incarnation

The popular image of "mundane" fighter is frankly retarded and isn't helped by 3.14^2E making them useless and poisoning a generation against them

Fighter are supposed to be epic warriors in the vein of Conan, Musashi, and Charlemagne at level 1-10 and progress to Achilles, Cu Chuhlainn, and Bhishma at levels 10+

But the mechanics of every edition gimp them to the point of uselessness or make Classes out of various Fighter archetypes e.g. Paladin, Thief, Ranger etc that do their job better than they ever could

>>49802425
Not in my universes.

>>49799667
But what is "fights"?

>>49808454
Are you sure they're not supposed to be Brienne of Tarth, Bronn, or Sandor Clegane?

>>49808565
In dnd term they are not even lvl 5

>>49808565
Those characters work because ASoIaF is a low magic fantasy world, and they're better than most other human warriors they encounter. A fighter in a high-magic fantasy world is gonna have to be on a level where they can go toe to to with a magic user of equal skill and experience, through sheer grit, strength, and abilities. You have to have something that is still mundane, but not truly "realistic" in therms of human limitations.

>>49799631
Think of the fighter as your run-of-the-mill mercenary. The standard fighter should be a generalist compared to other specialized classes such as a thief, ranger, or barbarian. They ahould be built for versatility with a heavier punch than say, a bard. They should be comparable with a soldier or guard or the average adventurer.

That's usually when GMs have new players enter a game as a fighter for their first character if they don't want to use a utility or spellcasting class.

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>>49808624
So basically pic related
Super Strong and Super Tough but not shooting fireballs at enemies or turning into a bear

>>49808697

Hercules dresses in skins, uses a great club, and is prone to rages.

That sort of says Barbarian to me.

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>>49808755
You're not the only one who thinks that. I'd say he's more a ranger though.

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>>49808755
Then his brother would be a better example
But barbarian is just a lightly armored angry fighter anyway

>>49808767

I'm skeptical, but willing to listen to your reasoning.

>>49799631
>What is a fighter supposed to be thematically? Like a Paladin is a holy warrior
>cleric is a priest

Wow, cleric, another name for a priest, is governed by the priest archetype? That explains everything!

What is a holy warrior supposed to be thematically? Assume I get the holy part now explain to me the warrior archetype, because you obviously already know what the warrior thing is or you wouldn't have used it.

>governing archetype
No wait, know you don't since you're using words wrongly. You're just writing synonyms or near synonyms after words. Brute is not the archetype for barbarian and unlike cleric/priest and paladin/holy warrior it's not even a near synonym. Maybe when you learn what an archetype is you can ask your question in a meaningful way.

>>49808780
He shows a clear ability to handle beasts in both seizure and combat, is very proficient with a bow, and quick to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of beasts. He also used his knowledge of nature to clear the stables of King Augeas as part of one of his labors.

>>49808767
Isn't Herc supposed to be eligible for every class except Caster in Fate/Stay

>>49808839
Pretty much, but Berserker is his best by far assuming you have effectively infinite mana like Illyasviel

>>49808866
Only stat wise. He cant use his nps as berserker

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bump

>>49808866
>but Berserker is his best by far
It's said repeatedly that Berserker is his worst class because Heracles was a combat genius with a tactically inclined mind, being retarded cripples him more than any stat loss even from being Assassin would.

>>49809827
From what I've read of Fate/, not a lot of "tactical genius" goes on.

>>49804713
Personally I prefer Saber.

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>>49805432
>skilled
>2+int

>>49802507
Rock Lee best ninja.

>>49801704
Sorry to break it to you, but you are retarded

>>49810039
Truth

>>49810039
>It's le Rock Lee is not a genius like others meme
He fucking has a skill almost no other ninja can achieve even if they train for life

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>>49809957
>playing Third Edition derivatives

Gross

>>49799842
I feel it's worth pointing out that Fighter was always short of "the fighting man" and was supposed to be indicative of everything from knights in armor to the common soldier. Anyone with knowledge how to fight with weapons and armors.

Priests used magic, but were limited to blunted weapons only as an oath to not draw blood.

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>>49799631
A bad enough dude (or chick) to save the princess.

>>49799631
Master-of-Defense, Man-at-Arms, Weapon Master.

Not sure why you have trouble imagining these concepts, they've been REAL on our EARTH not so long ago; For several centuries.

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>>49799631
I tend to think of them as either former soldiers or city guard where they were taught a little of everything weapon wise but have no real defining culture like say barbarians.

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>>49799631
>What is a fighter supposed to be thematically?
You ever seen Willow? Think Madmartigan, the guy your pic is based off of

This is a fighter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgnHF2CwrPs

>>49805155
Gilgamesh was a fighter. He just got crazy racial bonuses from being a demi god as well.

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I always imagined the Fighter to be the kind of person you tell stories about at a bar. In a group of people who shot lightning at people, performed miracles, and turned into animals, he was the dumb motherfucker that ran in with a sword and board and did what he knew. And he knew it well, and that's why we loved him. Too bad he got fucking disintegrated by that wizard.

>>49811980
>Florida Man is a Fighter

>>49799631
>What is a fighter supposed to be thematically?
Nothing.

>>49799631
Standard Soldier/Warrior

>>49812901
"Flo Rida the Fightah" has a nice ring to it.

Thanks for the next character idea anon.

>>49808565

In dungeons and dragons terms, as someone else said, those three characters aren't even level 5.

High-level martials are probably more in beowulf territory, what with the swimming across an ocean in full armor fighting off sea monsters, grappling things bigger than they are to death, etc etc.

>>49808866

Actually, probably his worst class except Caster, if memory serves, given that berserker's stat boosts are a drop in the bucket for Herc but he gives up a ton of really good stuff like his noble phantasms to be a berserker. From what I recall, comments have been that Hercules as an Archer or Saber would be much, much more dangerous than him as Berserker.

>>49809555
I always wondered how often people who wore aventail and heavy armor smothered when pinned.

>>49801742
>rolling for stats

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>>49799959
Here you go

>>49816814
Berserker would have been a lot higher tier....but the problem was Illya was kinda pissed off about how much it hurt and drained her to keep his ass in reality, so she never let him gain the benefits from Mad Enhancement, only the downsides.