Hail Zarus

Blowback from a common trend in fantasy series to make humans out to be absolutely shit in comparison to non-humans. As well as a revolt against special snowflake type characters.

That said it isn't that common of a thing, and most of the HFY I've personally seen is usually tongue in cheek.

>>49794665
because the same could be said about the people playing them, given the chance.
Give or take the genocide. 'Specially round here.

Never experienced a human player like this, OP.

Gee, I don't know. Maybe a misguided sense of superiority combined with all these really shitty fantasy dime novels, a feeling that you could do those things better and "more realistic and gritty", coming together in finally getting the platform to express their shit on?

I tend to see it in DMs more often than in players.

>>49794665
Jokes on you. ALL my characters are genocidal assholes regardless of race.

>>49794665
Same reason that thinly-veiled HFY shitty Mass Effect fanfiction is so popular. Usually, settings are built in such a fashion as gives humanity the short end of the stick, and there's something pleasing in fucking such a setting in its eyesocket.

>>49794867
But in the end even in those settings humanity is always responsible for bringing forth the final victory for the good guys, and the other races will nearly universally acknowledge this by the end. I don't know if that'd count as the short end of the stick.

If you've read your Tolkien, you'll know elves used to be real shitheads in the past as well. They grew out of it. Now humans are going through the same phase.

Give us a little while, we'll get over it as well.

>>49794685
>>49794882
This meme needs to stop. Humans have always been the most "privileged" race in any fantasy. Races are good or bad depending on how "humane" their morals are. It's always the humans, or the races that live like humans (read Hobbits etc) who save the day.
Even when humans are the settings dickbags, that's because they're "inhumane" and it's up to the "humane" to defeat them.

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>>49794665
It's harder

>>49794964
>Even when humans are the settings dickbags, that's because they're "inhumane" and it's up to the "humane" to defeat them.

I'm inclined to disagree, because most of the time when humans are the inhumane ones, the setting is too grimdark for the heroes' actions to make any difference. Those two tend to go hand in hand.

Why exactly do you imagine it's strange or unnatural for one species to try and out compete another? That is instinctive. That's what animals do. If other intelligent races existed on earth they wouldn't be friends, they would be our competition or our servants

>>49795112
Never said anything about strange or unnatural. It may well be it's how things are to be in real life, but I care little about real life in stories. In stories that shit's just lame.

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>>49794964
>Humans have always been the most "privileged" race in any fantasy.
What, getthisshitoutofmyface.
"Races are good or bad depending on how "humane" their morals are.
The morality of other different races in fantasy are anchored by what humans as readers can understand and relate with. That just makes sense.
Likewise some of the most immoral creatures are the ones that take the extremes of human instinct.
> It's always the humans, or the races that live like humans (read Hobbits etc) who save the day.
That's an undefined catchall.
Are we saying "Like" humans because they are anthropomorphic.
Or because they are civilized to some extent.
Do the elves count as being human in their various depictions?
Do treants as well.
>hobbits specifically.
Hobbits live as an extreme version of human beings, and the human beings in that universe started as sort of demigods if i am not mistaken.
Would it made a difference if Orks saved the day with their violent tendencies, which mirror our darker urges?
>Even when humans are the settings dickbags, that's because they're "inhumane" and it's up to the "humane" to defeat them.
Okay this is just semantics now.
These humans in this instance were shown to be of weak character, prone to acts of instincts and destruction.
It does not however remove the immense powers other races are given.

>>49794964
So it's like HFY started?
>waaaah humans are always the losers in any scifi setting ever!
>except that they are always the protagonists that win at the end

>>49795112
That's completely unnatural. Very few, if any, species aside from humans actively try to out compete the others. It usually happens as an accident via human intervention. Even we don't try to out compete other species only each other.

>>49794964
Elves do not cease to be nearly immortal, to have mastered things a man may not even comprehend. To remain youthful and wise, and to have the forest itself bend to their whim.

Dwarves do not stop having long lives, instinctive understanding of metal and stone. They could build and design things beyond human construction. and to be strong despite their size and anatomy.

Etc,etc.

Humans only have two advantages, they breed a lot more than races that take so long to mature or god(s) loves us.
Meaning our key advantage is that of rabbits.
Look at any setting you will see this, human beings will be fractious and prone to division where as the other races are rarely fractured into more than 3different subgroups often because of the actions of gods or giants.

>>49795112
There are tons of examples of symbiotic animal relationships in nature, anon.

>>49795178
I would point out that the reason Elves have 'mastered things a man may not even comprehend', and Dwarves 'instinctive understanding of metal and stone'; are entirely due to their elongated lifespan enabling them to learn this shit. The rest is just down to shit world building.

>>49795169
>>49795198
Yes, and there's a reason none of those other species are the masters of earth, now is there?

Only we, the humans, have the instinct to fuck everything over, and therefore we also have the right to rule everything.

>>49795216
I don't think it's just their lifespan. They tend to have a whole number of other physical and mental advantages as well - improved health, darkvision, etc. - not to mention a vastly longer history and much more time to have made all the mistakes we've made and learned from them.

>>49795216
That doesn't really make much sense when the reason why this board paints the humans as the technological progressive raceis their short lifespan.

>>49795217
>Only we, the humans, have the instinct to fuck everything over, and therefore we also have the right to rule everything.
Human is an animal that learned how to shape its environment instead of getting bent by environment, that's fucking all.
>right
FUCKING
Rights are constructs of human, they don't exist outside of our dusty papers and traditions. We -can- rule everything, but there is nothing giving us that right, nor there is something telling us we are not allowed to do it. It's up to us whether to use the ability or not.

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>>49795217

>>49795217
I guess Evolution is some sort of "last man standing, free-for all" game to you, anon?

>>49795217
>Only we, the humans, have the instinct to fuck everything over
Depends on the setting and is ultimately up to the writer. Also this sopunds like orcs also would be the rightful owner of the world.

>>49795252
>Human is an animal that learned how to shape its environment instead of getting bent by environment, that's fucking all.

Whatever it is, it is what has allowed us to rise above, giving us the right to do what we want.

We -can- rule everything, and therefore, even if we do not, it is by our own clemency and goodwill that everything else can live. If we so wished, we could destroy them all. Does that not make us the masters of life and death?

>>49795263
>I guess Evolution is some sort of "last man standing, free-for all" game to you, anon?

And we won that game long ago, did we not? Winner takes all.

>>49795272
>Also this sopunds like orcs also would be the rightful owner of the world.

It does, and if orcs were reality instead of fiction, they probably would. But in fiction they never do because they're ugly and unrelatable or some stupid shit like that.

>>49795225
see Shit world building.
>>49795239
We stand on the shoulders of giants Anon. We may be outlived by the pointy eared bastards and the short beardy gits. But as our turnover rate and numbers are greater, this gives us more heads to think up more ideas and build on whats gone before. In 100 years we can have three maybe 6 generations providing women give birth at in their teens. That's 6 new perspectives as opposed to the Elves and Dwarves 1.

>>49795291
>And we won that game long ago, did we not?
Ha ha ha ha ha
Not before we develop tools to colonise at least Mars

>>49795291
The "game" is still going anon. And the clock is ticking down for the next extinction event.

>>49795291
>"we could destroy them all. Does that not make us the masters of life and death?"
Ever heard of Man-enhanced climate change?
>And we won that game long ago, did we not? Winner takes all.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>Also this sopunds like orcs also would be the rightful owner of the world.
Still laughing from you're last point. HAHAHA!

>>49795239.
I've heard the argument that elves do not advance as much as they could because great thinkers are able to stay along much longer.
The example used was Aristotle, arguing that he retarded science in the west and if he had been alive long enough to push his ideas in the future he would have retarded it longer.


I'd pace it as a slowing down of their perceptions and a fixation on the "present". Human society changes fast because humans die off in 75 years leading to reflective developments and burn outs as society rapidly shifts and fails to correct itself.
Because of this change humans are far quicker to adapt technologies or devolp them.
While elves have an natural rate of change helped along in some ways by keeping older minds alive humans can leap frog off of that and i figure that elves and dorfs allow so to test the effects of certain technologies

>>49795178
Well rabbits are cute as shit, so fuck you nigger.

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>>49795306
>see Shit world building.
nigga that's Tolkien's work.
And all he could do is world build.

>>49795329
>>Well rabbits are cute as shit, so fuck you nigger.
>pic related.
>vermin
>cute
More to the point that is actually their evolutionary strategy, breed

>>49795291
>And we won that game long ago, did we not? Winner takes all
Nah, rats won.

>>49795322
>Ever heard of Man-enhanced climate change?

Liberal conspiracy bullshit.

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

So you have no argument against me and are trying to laugh it off? Pff, typical.

>Still laughing from you're last point. HAHAHA!

It's true, though - why wouldn't the orcs, in a properly written setting that actually goes through with all the implications, -not- be in charge?

>>49795328
It's funny to me that this argument is always about elves when other races with long lifespans exist. It's almost like this board is heavily biased against them.

>>49795344
>Liberal conspiracy bullshit.

Seriously? By now I thought the actual visible effects of climate change should be proof enough. But okay.
Out of curiosity, what's your explanation for the conspiracy? Who, how and why?

>>49795355
Elves are in like 90% of all fantasy settings and usually out-lifespans all other races in those settings. Kitchen-sink settings with dozens of races are a minority.

>>49795344
>So you have no argument
You claim that sun is cold and get angry at people that laugh at this.
Mankind can still die to many climate changes, maybe even one that human brought/sped up himself (global warming, being the most obvious and skubtastic example)

>>49795374
Even in kitchen-sinks like D&D I can't think of any races that could outlive an elf, at least on the material plane.

Maybe dragons, but they were immortal in Tolkien as well so I don't know if they count.

>>49795360
>Who,

Just said it - liberals.

>how

Absolute control over all media

>and why?

Because climate change is really lucrative these days and people like a good doomsday vision. Everyone always likes to think they're the last humans around and that the world will end in their time. Climate change is what will bring that end today, so they think.

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>>49795344

>>49795382
Dragons are not civilisation builders usually so that disqualifies them I would say. In settings were dragons do form/lead civilisations they tend to be really fucking dominant.

>>49795374
Dwarfs exist too, but they don't get shat on all the time when portraying humans as the best thing ever.

>>49795398
So there is this huge conspiracy involving thousands of media outlets and the silencing of pretty much every scientist on earth just to sell electric cars and solar cells? Sure, sounds perfectly likely.

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>>49795355
>i'm biased
nigga the reason why i didn't include dorfs is because dorfs are usually really conservative.
Das it.
Also elves are the best base line for this having the LONGEST life span.

>>49795417
That's because dwarves are fat drunken neckbearded basement dwellers, and therefore bros.

>>49795417
>>49795429

Don't dwarf usually have lifespans around 200-300 years while elves live for 5000+? It's not even the same magnitude of long-lived.

>>49795417

That's because no matter how advanced and tough dwarves of setting x are autists who get butthurt over fictional beings can content themselves that they're short, stinky and hairy.

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>this thread

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>>49795417
>Dwarfs exist too, but they don't get shat on all the time when portraying humans as the best thing ever.
There are drawbacks to their existence, like never being able to reach the top shelf or been seen as uncouth.
Rigid clan system.
dying in the deep with your axe.
Hard back breaking work everyday and being designed for it.
Elves are aristocracy however.
They are beautiful.
Flawless in thought or action.
More akin to angels then men.
If I'm not mistaken in Tolkien the trees themselves will bend over to produce what elves want

In that sense
dorfs are drinking buddies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1gF0uhHsqk

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>>49795449
>Don't dwarf usually have lifespans around 200-300 years while elves live for 5000+? It's not even the same magnitude of long-lived.
das my point.

>>49795462
>dorfs are drinking buddies
Funny when they are also usually really seclusive and untrusting of outsiders. And in Tolkien it was always elves that were friends with humans.

>>49795485
>Funny when they are also usually really seclusive and untrusting of outsiders. And in Tolkien it was always elves that were friends with humans.
1. i meant in a metaphorical sense, humans don't have as soft a life as the knife ears in most settings.
In fact most people don't, and can sympathize with others.
2. dorfs were completely reliant on humans and elves for food in Tolkien and while they chilled to elves they had to remain on cordial terms with humans.
I also generally remember them being friends to humanity also

>>49795519
If elves have soft lives in Tolkien, then going by all the shit they had to go through in Silmarillion, I'd say they sure as hell would have deserved to get a bit of peace for once.

>>49795533

Mirkwood elves didn't have any softer lives than Dwarves of the Iron Mountains. Dol Amroth (and Minas Tirith before the War) humans had it roughly the same as the Elves of Lorien or Rivendell.

>>49795519
>I also generally remember them being friends to humanity also
I'm not denying that, but it was the elves that welcomed humans, elves and those humans fought side by side against Melkor and Sauron, the support for the fellowship was mostly elves.

>>49795572
>elves and those humans fought side by side against Melkor and Sauron, the support for the fellowship was mostly elves.
i mean they should clean up the messes they cause

>>49795588
This argument will never make sense. I heard it many times that somehow it's the elves fault that bad things happen in middle-earth and I hope it's always the same retard.

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>>49795606
here i thought the elves helped sauron but then again i found tolkien a bit dry.

>>49795606

Clearly it's the fault of the elves who were NOT corrupted by the 3 rings rather than the 9 human lords who fucked it all up.

>>49795606
>>49795664
I don't remember the details (for the reason >>49795635 stated) but elves did have several millennia of wars and hatred and incest and genocide and other bullshit going on. The ones you see in LoTR, the comparatively smart and mellow ones, are those that're left by natural selection: all the morons killed themselves off, and unfortunately fucked the world over pretty badly while doing so.

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>>49795682
>several millennia of wars
Against Melkor.
>and hatred
Against Melkor.
>and incest
What.
>and genocide
No.
>and other bullshit
Awesome.

>>49795714
It was only mostly against Melkor. They tore a new one to each other as well. And there was at least one elf that desired his cousin.

>>49795776
>They tore a new one to each other as well
Except for kinslaying I don't see how.
>And there was at least one elf that desired his cousin.
Oh fuck, we got one elf. How dare the entirety of elves have one that does something that could actually happen between royalty, which he was part of! This point doesn't excuse it, don't get me wrong, but I hope you get what I mean

>>49795803
>kinslaying
technically given that the majority of evil's minions are or were elves on could stretch it that way.
>incest
Now that think of it that could factor in orcs too.
Jesus.

>>49795682

>t.Teleri

Teleris getting blown the fuck out. Noldors for life. Fëanor did nothing wrong.

>>49795635
No, Sauron tricked the Elves into making the rings of power, who were -all- supposed to be for the elves. So they could use them to maintain their realms. Sauron tried to hijack these rings by creating the One Ring, but found out that the Elves had secretly made three rings of their own.

In response, Sauron attacked Eregion and razed it to the ground, killing untold of the remaining High Elves, and essentially dooming them to leaving Middle Earth.

>>49795427
>>49795398
>As if the oil companies would allow that to happen.

>>49795980

Sauron must have been so very pissed off to realise that the great trickster got himself tricked by the elves.

>>49796034
He waged a war he was pretty much doomed to lose -just- to burn Eregion to the ground.

>>49794665
Because they're usually played by over-priviledged, insecure, whitey fuckwits, who can't bear the thought of playing in a fictional world that doesn't revolve around them.

>>49796072
Isn't that how they themselves tend to think elves are, what justifies their distaste?

Ha, irony.

>>49796084
Depends on the setting. In some depictions elves don't want to have anything to do with worldly affairs. In some they basically saved the world at least once or were former rulers of it.

>>49796072
Preach.

I once suggested a setting where humans -lost- the big inter-species war and had been beaten and subjugated by Dwarves and Elves. One guy -lost his shit- when I mentioned that there was little to no chance of re-establishing human independence, and at most you could find a free enclave and live out your life in peace.

The story would be about an all but hopeless last stand, or an attempt to get a resistance going, but victory was unlikely to say the least.

>>49796084
Someone's going to come along and claim that their garbage is a ~reaction~ to the treatment of humans as inferior to elves, to which I call bullshit.

The vast, vast majority of fantasy settings do not treat humans as inferior to elves, because the vast majority of fantasy stories are grounded in human perspectives, and focus on human characters and their struggles. Stories that do the opposite are, and always have been, the exception, not the norm.

But these thin-skinned motherfuckers can't bear the thought of anything different, so they talk up that handful of exceptions until they've convinced themselves that it's actually the overwhelming majority, and then pitch a shitfit over it.

>>49794665
Have you considered that the reason why humans feel the need to eradicate everyone else is because they know that they are inferior, and that giving the other races more time to realize that they are in fact superior in every aspect is a massive mistake?

It's like Synths in Fallout 4. Are they thinking, feeling creatures with just as much right to live as regular humans? Sure.
The problem is that they're vastly superior to regular humans. Their statline can be straight 8's. If regular humans let them be, there will come a time when the synth population reaches a critical mass, where they realize they can crush everyone else like ants. They can't be allowed to reach that level. They must be stopped, to keep humanity safe, even though they're a superior lifeform.

This is, of course, how things are seen if you're seeing it from a humans perspective.

>>49796141
Alternatively, if you didn't want to focus on the humans (and didn't want to imply that the dwarves and elves were actually the wholly-evil bastards HFY-fans would insist they were), you could make the story be about a dwarf or elf who grows up long after the humans were crushed, meets some humans and realises they aren't as bad as their parents always claimed, and decides to support the humans' struggle for independence.

>>49796166
That's a fairly uneducated humans perspective at least regarding the Synths, though.
Considering that the 'free' Synths both have no idea that they are Synths and are capable of interbreeding with humans, all that is likely to occur from the proliferation of Synths into human society is the strengthening of humanity.

>>49796209
Sounds like a leftist sjw simulator, count me in!

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>>49796141
>by Dwarves and Elves
dorfs and elves working together?
what more importantly for what purpose?
>Little to no chance of independent humans
you are going to have to give us a bit more information about the setting than that.

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>>49796072
Your tone is surprisingly bitter and vindictive for someone claiming to call anyone else insecure. You are also wrong. Everything still revolves around the players in such worlds. If you are the PCs, the world quite literally revolves around you and your struggle. Perhaps not logically but from an emotive perspective (the only one that matters) this is the case.

What people despise is the idea of subjugation and powerlessness. It is the most contemptible state of existence out there, and the natural response to it is extreme in-group preference and aggression towards perceived oppressors and threats. This manifests itself as nationalism in our own world (generally) but would quite plausibly emerge as Racialism in a fantasy setting with distinct races.

And it is not merely the state of subjugation that frightens people, but the prospect of it. People harden themselves to the idea of being colonized long before it actually happens. Moreover, historically we can say with certainty that it is the correct response--societies who have had longer to prepare for the inevitable move to subjugate them have a far higher rate of success than those who are caught unawares.

So what you describe as insecurity, and fuckwittery, is actually the basic instinct for group survival. Some people clearly feel it more strongly than others. For the same reason that some people will resist being ordered about by NPCs regardless of how stupid this actually is, some people will be drawn to a sort of ethno-nationalism when they hear that their race is in danger--even in a fictional setting.

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>>49796072
>>Because they're usually played by over-priviledged, insecure, whitey fuckwits, who can't bear the thought of playing in a fictional world that doesn't revolve around them.
>playing pnp expecting not to be the protagonist
>using the term priviliged
>focusing on race

>>49796219
They state nowhere in the game that Synths can procreate, and honestly, giving them the capability is a problem waiting to happen. They also don't age, or change their bodyweight. And since they can be reprogrammed or shutdown by using a passcode, they're also unreliable to have around.

They're a threat.There's no way around it. Does it warrant their destruction? Personally, I'm on the fence. But if you see it from a risk management perspective they need to go, while you still have a chance.

>>49796368
Gen 3 Synths are explicitly indistinguishable from humans down to the cellular level. Of course they can interbreed with humans.

>>49796392
They're not though. Why do synths drop synth components when killed?
They're only indistinguishable from regular humans if you need/want them to stay alive.

>>49796228
The Elves and Dwarves had fought a massive war against each other several centuries ago and were both shadows of their former selves. In the gaps between them, the humans started to expand, but they were ignored at first.

Then the humans, recently formed into an empire becomes a bit too big and begins to boss the Elves and Dwarves around. Withholding food shipments to Dwarven holds,(which depended on trading with human realms for their food), and expanding into the borders of Elven realms.

Eventually, the last human emperor, seeing there's no more human lands to conquer, makes war upon an Elven realm because it refused to pay tribute to his greatness. He saw the Elves and Dwarves as HFY people see them, a weak old race that needs to make way for humanity.

The Elves and Dwarves see the writing on the wall, and strike first. The war takes decades, but at the end the Human empire has been subjugated, and turned into directly administered territories, tributary states, and a free rump state.

>>49796209
What, like "Dwarven Allies" to the poor opressed human minorities? That could work if you played it right.

>>49795155

This.

You want to know why humans are not the most powerful race in whatever setting they're in? Because otherwise they wouldn't be the gosh darn "protagonist" race. You know, the people that have what is known as a "character arc", where they start off normal, get weak, and end the story stronger than they started before.

Much like a ball suspended above the ground by a thread, Humanity has "potential energy" which many other races lack.

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>>49794964
>privileged

>>49796416
Sounds like the logical conclusion to HFY and also possibly a lot of fun to play in under a good DM.

>>49796547
The story would have taken place a few decades after the fall of the Empire, with enough soldiers who survived the war being bitter, but also with some areas under Dwarven/Elven rule improving enough that some people actually -like- it. At least compared to the somewhat tyrannical empire-era rule. The players would just be doing normal adventures, but eventually get to choose to side with the resistance, the elves/dwarves, or go for themselves.

>>49796416
I like the premise but i do have some questions
>>seeing there's no more human lands to conquer,
I don't get that, i mean there are warlike empire but the human empire would be able to expand outwards, even across the sea if boxed in, they would dues vult before that no?
>>makes war upon an Elven realm because it refused to pay tribute to his greatness.
>is his name reviled.
>> He saw the Elves and Dwarves as HFY people see them, a weak old race that needs to make way for humanity.
you ought not to equate HFY with fantasy nazism.
My own enjoyment of HFY has come from people exacerbating the quirks of human kind to make it stand out in the universe.

Also there has to be a better reason then MUH racisms.and MUH Ubermench

>The Elves and Dwarves see the writing on the wall, and strike first.
As in unprovoked, without declaring war because it conflicts with the humans making war.
>> The war takes decades
i want to know the effects of that, if it was a lukewarm war then the elves and dorfs cut the head off the snake striked at some point once they were ready.
Otherwise this sounds like a war of attrition which would leave both even more exhausted as a race.
>administered territories, tributary states, and a free rump state.
That doesn't sound all that bad, when you typed subjugated and talked about enclaves i though made into slaves.
Are we talking draconian police states now?
Massive taxes?
Are dwarves patrolling the streets or do they sit in towers while human-capo do so.
Likewise what is preventing humanity from rising up if the elves and dorfs took so long to defeat them in the first place and they were initially threatened.
are dorfs keeping humans as slaves to grow crops outside their holds.
Come on man i this could get good.
Also I'd actually kinda like to hear how that campaigned panned out.
This shit is good

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>>49796547
>>HFY
Logical conclusion to HFY is for the entire human race to be fucked over.

>>49796416
>>49796658
point being there's a lot of political intrigue in this setting.

>>49794665
Cause my fuckinf paladin ain't wrong in his genocide. Everything in setting thats went wrong the past 5 centuries is purely a result from elves and orcs not getting along and neither side will stop being children long enough for the orcs to see the fallout elsewhere or the elves to actually give a fuck.
Cleared out the orcs and thats already solved most of the shit now the elves either pay their dues or die. Arrogant fucks are currently letting their ego's place them in the "or die" category.

>>49796739
>Cause my fuckinf paladin ain't wrong in his genocide.

I'm pretty sure the moment 'Paladin' and 'Genocide' are in the same sentence, they rather are.

>>49796739
>Cause my fuckinf paladin ain't wrong in his genocide

Uh-huh. Enjoy your fall.

>>49796763
>>49796763
His god actually came to him in person and gave him that mission. The rogue even tried to attack him.

>>49796786
Oh, so this is one of thise 4e paladins?

>>49796793
3.pf with the house rules longtime gaming buddies naturally develop.

>>49796658
>As in unprovoked, without declaring war because it conflicts with the humans making war.

Tell me you wouldn't praise humans for doing something similar, i.e. a pre-emptive attack against a bunch of potentially hostile elves or dwarves or especially orcs.

A lot of people here sure would.

>>49796795
House rules such as "paladin" and "genocide" going happily in the same sentence without any trouble?

>>49796795
>3.pf with the house rules longtime gaming buddies naturally develop.
Do these houserules involve Paladins being able to choose different alignments from LG?

Because I don't see any of >>49796739 being very good.

>>49796828
I mean I can see a paladin trying to arrest a bunch of elves and orcs and putting a stop to their eternal war, but...

>>49796812
>Tell me you wouldn't praise humans for doing something similar,
I wouldn't, it's a pragmatic choice but that's besides the point
You said humans made war on the elves but also the elves struck first.
That leaves me with the question of was there proceedings, did humans act cordially and send emissaries, or did elves and dorfs just jump the empire before formal declarations.
Elves and dorfs like men are not prefect normal actors.

>especially orcs
orks are USUALLY depicted as an innately evil race in settings where they are not it is not justifiable

>>A lot of people here sure would.
>attempting to Measuring opinion
>on 4chan
dude no

>>49794665
Most people don't want to play genocidal fuckheads, it just seems that way here because /tg/ is full of 40kids.

>>49796658
The Elven and Dwarven realms were spread throughout the Human empire like enclaves and generally left alone. The last human emperor was the first to actually plan to expand into one. Seeing their riches and treasures as his for the taking.

Yes, his name is reviled. He is called the Last Emperor, and his real name is the vilest of curse you can speak.

He thought that humanity was destined to rule the world, and that the age of Elves and Dwarves was over. He saw the great cities of humans, and what looked like the failing and decaying Elder Race realms, and decided he would be the one to unite the entire continent under his empire.

The Elves and Dwarves who were not at war with the Human Empire, struck after that Elven realm was conquered, they used that time to ready their armies, and they see those Elves as martyrs accordingly.

The war took decades, but within the first they had effectively won. Imagine an army surges out of every major mountain chain and forest in -and- outside your realm. The Empire was torn to shreds, each trying to fight independently.

Humans have little of no political freedoms, and are brutally repressed if they try to rise up. But only -if- they do so. for the most part, it's actually better than being a medieval mud-farmer under human rulers as The Elves and Dwarves aren't against sharing tech/magic if it means better servants.

Taxes are heavy enough to disincentivize economic growth and social mobility. The Elves and Dwarves generally want their taxes paid in labor. The Dwarves have humans farming for them, and the elves humans doing manual labor.

Most directly ruled territories are controlled by Elven and Dwarven rulers, while the tributary states have Elves/Dwarves breathing down their necks.

There are no big uprisings, because the Elves and Dwarves allied with those peoples the empire had originally repressed and use them to augment their armies. They also play divide and conquer with the different ethnicities.

>>49796828
A. The elves are pretty much across the board evil. They believe their immortality makes them essentially gods and that mortals dying is merely what they exist for so them being caught in the crossfire is a non-issue.
B. Orcs do the whole "burnt ground" tactic bit just to fuck over the elves that chase them down. This kills everyone and unless you're an orc they don't give a shit and if you are an orc why aren't you fighting?
Greater good demands it ends and every other solution has failed as the elves won't negotiate cause why the fuck would they stoop that low and the orcs are too dumb.

>>49796658
>My own enjoyment of HFY has come from people exacerbating the quirks of human kind to make it stand out in the universe.

Except HFY never stops there. No matter how goofy or ridiculous humanity's in-universe quirk is, HFY-fags will always, without fail, find a way to append "...and therefore humanity is the centre of the universe" to it.

Humanity is the "warlike" race? Then humanity is the most warlike race, and all aliens are afraid of us, and humans hold immense power on the galactic stage through our monopoly on mercenaries.

Humanity is the "artistic" race? Then humanity is the most artistic race, and aliens fight wars over our artworks, and humans hold immense power on the galactic stage through our monopoly on arts and crafts.

Humanity is the "cute" race? Then humanity is the cutest race, and all aliens fall over themselves to pamper us, and humans hold immense power on the galactic stage through our monopoly on nose-boops.

Every. FUCKING. Time. It's never enough for humans to just have an interesting niche. They have to dominate everything. They have to be the centre of the fucking universe. If you dreamt up a setting where humans' stand-out feature was their ability to jizz harder than any other sapient species, HFY-fags would find a way to spin that into humans ruling the fucking galaxy.

Fuck HFY. It is the most self-centred strain of sci-fi ever.

>>49797010
>The elves are pretty much across the board evil
Nice homebrew, what would happen if I want to play an elf?

>>49797064
We do have an elf. He hates other elves for being egotistical prick but he was raised by half elves.
Halfies are currently in a bad place because elf and the implications of their birth are rape.
Almost all elves exist solely in their cities and those outside are treated worse than blacks in the south.

>>49797027
I don't have space to append every picture individually, but here, have the counter-argument.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Diplomat_1.png

Replace the number with 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc in sequence. It was something I wrote specifically to buck the trend of chest-pounding special snowflakeness.

>>49797081
That's basically drizzt-like cop-out. I don't see how playing a regular elf would work in this kind of campaign.

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>>49796941
>>Except HFY never stops there.
it has before. I can confirm.

>>HFY-fags will always, without fail, find a way to append "...and therefore humanity is the centre of the universe" to it.
nigga please you share aboard with warhammer what did you expect to happen.
Then again i've not seen a HFY thread in an age.

>HFY-fags would find a way to spin that into humans ruling the fucking galaxy.
While it doesn't support my defense of the HFY that has actually happened. I keked.

>>Fuck HFY. It is the most self-centred strain of sci-fi ever.
1, you indicated that was the result of HFY fags who then take a premise and spin it into humans are ubermench. It's less the genre then and more fans.
2.I fail to see the reason behind your vitriol

>>49797138
Uhh, I think you meant to tag someone else here.

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>>49796941
Dis is goot.
we're looking at a dorf-elf ottoman empire here.
There is a question of how stable elf-dorf relationships are and internal struggles go but as i can see it 400-800 years of rule guaranteed without outside intervention

. Also there is the question of where did human magic users go and if humans crossed the sea to flee

>>49797113
He's an all around uncompromising nice guy. He's literally out to make all non-supremacist elves look good and its sort working though the rest of the party usually has to intercept flak.
He somehow has a pension for turning lynchings into friends.
It's like he has airborne AIDS but instead of killing it gives you warm feels and smiles.
He will however gut a fucker type elf any second of the day.

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>>49797155
yep, sorry mate >>49797138
meant for >>49797027

>>49796941
>>49796941
so this would only work on an island with absolutely no external intervention.

Using historic incidences of migratory tribes and peoples in vast continents with different temperate zones would have different peoples and races who constantly suffer from either external and internal pressures that cause either adoption and overcoming the issue or being expelled from their land to become nomads who usually end up in some foreign land as conquerors and become a ruling elite superstrate(ala Mitanni, Mughals, Mongols, Crusader states, Huns) with large local populaces they control or become their own nations by overthrowing or absorbing the local populace like Hungarians, Turks, Germanics.

This shows the fact that there will be massive number of tribes, peoples or races in the fantasy world unless its an island.

Or its some specific fantasy setting that I cannot understand.

>>49797248
Or it's run by someone that's willing to eschew real-world accuracy for the sake of a better setting because this is fantasy and not real life.

>>49797164
The Elves and Dwarves were united by a desire to defeat humanity, but they've begun fracturing again. Which is bad, because both sides used to be too weak to really wage war on each other. But now there's a load of Dwarven and Elven realms, each with annexed chunks of Human lands, and tributary states, many of them now having a lot of human strength with which to settle old grudges...

The Dwarves are expanding their forges with human labor, and the Elves are rebuilding their cities now that they have enough free labor to do so. There are growing groups of elf-humans and dwarf-humans who actually -like- being ruled by the Elder Race(mostly minorities that the empire used to oppress) .

The humans who fled overseas established themselves on the largely inhospitable orc-infested mainland, where they've established an empire in exile. (the migration of these orcs pushed the humans onto the continent).

The human mages went overseas and established a magocracy. But they try to avoid the attention of the Elven mage-hunters.
>>49797248
It's a large isolated continent/island, think a much bigger Great Britain around the size of greenland, with humanity migrating in across a bunch of land-bridges after the big Dwarf-Elf war. They settled the continent and eventually began to dominate it with their empire. There were a lot of people migrations, many of which settled the continent, but the last great migration from overseas is the one that established the empire, and subjugated all the other peoples on the continent. The Dwarves/Elves often use these long oppressed minorities to run their empire.

>>49797315

>Or its some specific fantasy setting that I cannot understand.>>49797248

>>49796763
Are you kidding? Committing genocide on generic fantasy orcs is not only morally acceptable, its potentially the only moral choice.

Orcs as presented in fan-trays deserve to be utterly exterminated. The idea that the human gods would have a problem with that is silly.

>>49797381
>>minorities
>> that the empire used to oppress
how slow down.

>humanity dues vult
>oppressing minority humans
those things are almost exclusive.
It's then not a matter of HFY and as i've indicated before Germanic stupidness, straight from the pages of Hegel or Marx with that march of progress shit.
> The Dwarves/Elves often use these long oppressed minorities to run their empire.
Okay where or who are this peoples.
And how were they oppessed and if you use the world systemic so help me emprah.

>The humans who fled overseas established themselves on the largely inhospitable orc-infested mainland, where they've established an empire in exile. (the migration of these orcs pushed the humans onto the continent).
Orks be evil?
Reconquest when?
Also this sounds like the better setting humanity beset at all sides trying to elk out a living in an hospital land while orks run rampant arround them

>>49797424
That would mean the rules of life are fucked.
Also that is bad writing ONE OUGHT TO EXPLAIN HOW THAT WORKS. aside from HEHheh because i says so

>>49794665
Because Humans are the hottest shit in 3.pf and thus have become the hottest shit everywhere.

>>49797471
>Also that is bad writing ONE OUGHT TO EXPLAIN HOW THAT WORKS. aside from HEHheh because i says so

No, not really.

How does magic work? How do you get matter out of fucking nowhere?
How can the elder races live so long?
How can dragons fly? It's far too much body mass, they shouldn't even exist!
etc.

The alternative to "Because I say so!" is explaining all these things, something few would bother to do and fewer still players would give a crud about. They're here for adventure, not science.

>>49797471
Perhaps oppression is the wrong word. The Empire was ruled by a ethnic group that was the biggest, and they had large minorities that didn't share the same religion, and had been sidelined for a while. They weren't actively being repressed, but the rulers were still snobby, and had a definite bias towards themselves.

The Elves and Dwarves incited long dead ethnic and religious grudges to keep the humans fighting among themselves. And then they side with the smaller groups to maintain the balance of power. Divide and Conquer.

And yeah, the setting is not supposed to be a "harhar, let's shit on humanity" setting, but one where humans are in a -really- shitty position.

>>49797639
>one where humans are in a -really- shitty position

They don't even seem to be doing all that badly if you ask me.

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>>49797547
>No, not really.
for the sake of worldbuilding yes you should have a sense of cohesive logic,it expands the world far more than simply It happens.
One could very much accept that premise is that this is one land mass and the only thing floating in the void.
But why?
Why is it floating in the void, alone. Is it's weather patterns unchanged. etc. etc.
If you want to run fast and loose with the setting by all means but this provides further depth to an idea.

>>magic and magical things
these things follow a logical structure, that is to say they follow their rules.
That is my point, there is an out put.
One might not need to explain every minutiae or do so in scientific ways but explaining where and how magic works gives a greater cohesive feel to the setting.
In a setting of massive gods, where magic is the product of elemental discharge from the titian and is humans unwittingly stealing a bit of their primordial creation power from their rotting celestial bodies opens the world up.
Are mages hated by divine mandate, if they are where are they not.
Are the gods tyrants? do they fear humanity? can humans become titans by infusion themselves with the stuff of magic?
So on and so forth.
As formulaic as that idea is it still makes your work better off for it

>>49797639
>Perhaps oppression is the wrong word.
Generally it is, i find it's a rather loaded term with the poltical climate, then again there are like 7 different marxist/revolutionary groups in my uni, have to deal with those faggots got me on edge.
the gay muslism for communism group makes me kek though./spoiler]
> The Empire was ruled by a ethnic group that was the biggest, and they had large minorities that didn't share the same religion, and had been sidelined for a while.
reminds me of the guals and sammanites.
the former welcomed the german invaders with open arms.

>And then they side with the smaller groups to maintain the balance of power.
again reminds me of the capo, i could see human officials being selected for them most brutal and socopathic humans

>And yeah, the setting is not supposed to be a "harhar, let's shit on humanity" setting, but one where humans are in a -really- shitty position.
yeah man, I dig it.

Now lets talk about gods and men.
Are gods into real?
Why aren't humans getting any divine help?
What are the human religions lik?
What are the elven and dwarven religions like.
What is the biggest taboo for every race.

>>49797795
>Why aren't humans getting any divine help?

Maybe the elder races are too, and they're cancelling each other out?

>>49797654
Depends on how you view the setting. If you want humanity to be a great and powerful setting, then things suck. Humans don't have much freedom, and they are in a state of subjugation/servitude no matter how you cut it. It's just not as horrific as it could be.

Free humans live in either the impoverished rump state, or overseas in the free cities. But these are perpetually under siege by orkish tribes that demand tribute payments, and will assault expansions outside of the enclaves. So the free cities are actually dependent on the enslaved humans for most of their food/resource imports.

As time goes on, eventually groups of humans will adopt the customs and practices of their overlords, and be integrated into their empires. Meaning that -if- humanity tames the orkish continent and tries to retake the old world, they'll be met by humans willingly fighting on the side of the Elves and Dwarves.

>>49797808
>Maybe the elder races are too, and they're cancelling each other out?
Which would mean that either the eldar gods are of equal size or the humans got fucked in the ass by eldar gods.
which would mean that there could have been swift coverts to the eldar god's religion.

>>49797795
If you have violent seizures when exposed to the concept of oppression, it's entirely your problem.

>>49794665
What anime?

>>49797826
Still not that terrible, and a good counterpoint to Dragon Age and all the other elf-slave things we keep getting.

>>49797844
>If you have violent seizures when exposed to the concept of oppression, it's entirely your problem.
Nigga it's a cancerious buzzword more related to tumblr than /tg/.
It also doesn't work in the case if you want to describe something, it being a rather vague and imprecise term.
How are those people oppressed?
What constitutes this oppression?
Is this tyrannical slavery?
Are they simply a protectorate?
Regular rape or murder by the ruling populous
It tells me ZERO things extent these people don't like being ruled by this foreign power.
Or their state is bad.
It's like the "statist" term i see Ancaps use, it means nothing.

>>49794665
Because in 3.PF they WERE among the hottest shit of all the races.
Floating stat bonus, bonus feat, versitile skill bonuses, All these things led to humans being the "Good at everything" ubermensch that dominated most gaming groups, especially since in 3.PF being a human and getting the bonus feat was one of the only ways to get martial builds to actualy function at a semi-reasonable level

>>49794665
>he uses drifters, of all things, as an image-example
>when humans ARE actually the hottest shit there
>even both gods are human

>>49798075
Yeah, well, in his defense pretty much the entire anime industry subscribes to this view. It doesn't make it any less stupid.

>>49797795
Pretty much. The Elves and Dwarves generally pick competent but loyal humans to keep an eye on resistance movements that are brewing. But they use the carrot -and- the stick. Life is just good enough, that a rebellion will risk you losing all the good stuff.

The Elves and Dwarves are fragments of their creator gods, which was created when the All in All split himself off into other gods which could inhabit the universe. And these gods split themselves again to create things to inhabit the universe.

But humans along with most of nature, are born off of the fragments of the All in All. It's a bit neo-platonic. Immortal souls in decaying matter.

The origin of your soul decides partially your natural instincts and desires. Humans are a boring blank slate. This could be seen as a cool thing. But they are a blank slate. Nothing cool or special about them. Whereas a Dwarf is a fragment of what is essentially the ur-dwarf. So a Dwarf has a tendency to love earthen beaut and feel at home there. While an Elf has the same for nature.

There are racial, and conceptual gods. The former are the ones which created and watch over a race, while the latter are about specific acts. So gods of hunting, crafting, justice, and the like. Racial gods are very vague, and generally a rough stereotype of their race.

Humans were therefore, the odd one out, as they did not have a god that contacted them and gave them stuff. There is a secret order of paladins though, that worship the All in All, and they are dedicated to human liberation. But also the death of the racial god and the reunification of the All in All(Which would destroy the universe, as the Universe is constructed off its corpse).

Generally, the taboo among the elder races is sharing knowledge with Humans. The Elves are remarkably free-love about everything, and it's considered okay to keep a human mistress/love-bitch (half breeds are impossible or mules, still undecided) as long as you keep them out of sight.

>>49797945
It's a term that means something, but "certian people" are trained to think nothing when they hear it to avoid the risk of being wrong.

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>>49796072
>all that projection

>>49798208
> It's a term that means something but "certain people" are trained to think nothing.
In my case it goes straight down to the definition:
from oxford
Prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or exercise of authority.
(as well as the state of being oppressed)
Effectively it means, bad things come from power, it is not specific about that bad thing.
The origin of the word itself means Miss use of power. Not what kind of abuse nor to what scale.

>when they hear it to avoid the risk of being wrong.
How do you mean?
I should also ask what do you mean by"certain people".

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>>49794665
Human, Dwarf, Elf, Demon, whatever. As long as the strong stand at the top. Wealth and glory to the winner. Messian and neutral bitches, get lost or get fucked up in battle! This is a world of strength baby.

>>49798119
Probably explains why so many folks on 4chan eat this shit.

>>49798337
>Effectively it means, bad things come from power, it is not specific about that bad thing.
Even if the word itself isn't, nearly every case of it being used is. Either it's about a specific act, the acts in question are clearly implied, or it's a strawman argument meant to be seen as meaningless.

>I should also ask what do you mean by"certain people".
The political movement which exists to attack other polticial beliefs, which it does by fixating on the words and phrases associated with them, consciously ignoring their meaning to falsely imply that the concepts they refer to don't exist, and parroting those "meaningless" phrases to each other in large inchoerent clusters to practice being smug and hateful towards their enemies. You've probably seen them around.

>>49794665
I'd feel a lot worse for races in D&D that catch the bad side of a race war if most Dungeons and Dragons settings weren't literally built on the conceit.
Seriously, one of the main driving conflicts in FR is orcs versus elves, on a literal cosmic scale.
In muh setting, the war between high elves and orcs passed over from the Forgotten Realms because the setting pantheon thought okay maybe these guys could sort their shit out without fighting.
Except the nations they had built hired human mercenaries to do their fighting for them. The mercs ended up uniting and playing at war to make sure none of their guys died while still getting paid, and that ended up causing a huge shitfest that pitted everyone against one another.
The mercs knew that if both sides they tricked ever united, they would be instantly crushed, but knew that they hated each other more than they hated the mercs, and didn't want to waste resources crushing the mercs and expose themselves to weakness or the mercs teaming with the other side. A good portion of the humans, some of the high elves and orcs, and most of the other races weren't invested in the war.
Eventually Corellon and Gruumsh were told to get the hell out by the rest of the pantheon for continuing to instigate a war that would have ended badly for everyone and dancing around their deal not to go to war.
It's not even that humans are superior (which is an ideal held by not!Japan), but that humans are the most populous race in the setting.

>>49799489
>>nearly every case of it being used is.
No, by it's very it is a short hand for miss use of power. By nature it is a GENERALIST term there is NO specificity. Imperialism and colonialism could likewise be used to express the same thing, baring the secondary use of oppressed as feeling depressed which is used to mean as well.

> Either it's about a specific act, the acts in question are clearly implied
allow me to give an example: not being allowed to vote could be considered oppression, likewise so could genocidal regimes.
One way or another they can be named the same way but there as you would not doubt agree is an ocean of separation between genocide and a lack of universal suffrage, especially in say a feudal society.

>or it's a strawman argument meant to be seen as meaningless.
What?

>>The political movement which exists to attack other polticial beliefs
God I'm getting some weird vibes.
Few beliefs do not begin in opposition to the established thought. From rationalism to romanticism. etc etc.
If your ideas cannot stand up to your enemies what was the point in having them?

>>consciously ignoring their meaning to falsely imply that the concepts they refer to don't exist,
That is some word jumble right here, what you seem to mean is"these people" ignore the meaning of words to imply these concepts don't exist.
It also implies that there is inherent value either social or intellectually in the ideas that mocking for mocking or deriding them to be of particular note.
WHAT.
>>and parroting those "meaningless" phrases to each other in large inchoerent clusters to practice being smug and hateful towards their enemies.
Are you bait?
Everyone here has been parroting something back and forth while being needless contrarians.
This is so generalist that YOU could fit on this list.
Give these enemies of yours a name.

>>You've probably seen them around.
Nigga when i see politics i tend to leave because you get a shit fest of idiots.

>>49799936
>Nigga when i see politics i tend to leave because you get a shit fest of idiots.
Everyone has an opinion and nobody EVER backs down or changes their mind, so the whole thing is fucking pointless. The best you will manage is mutual anger and hatred and spite. I have no idea why anyone would ever want to bother with this shit.

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>>49800142
i m 90% sure it's pic related

A few moronic fa/tg/uys and every anime ever hardly qualify as "most people", OP.

>>49802458
Thanks for the bump.

>>49794665
Why you gotta be shittalking me.

In complete honesty though, fuck Elves. No matter what game I'm playing I hold a incredible hatred against them, those limp-dick perfectly shaven faggots.
Fuck the special snowflake races.
They're unnecessary.

>>49802735
>They're unnecessary.

But so is all fantasy, or fiction in general.

Go out. Get a job.

>>49795485

It is one hundred percent factual that groups of insular and somewhat antisocial people love to drink their fucking faces off.

>>49799489

>The political movement which exists to attack other polticial beliefs, which it does by fixating on the words and phrases associated with them, consciously ignoring their meaning to falsely imply that the concepts they refer to don't exist, and parroting those "meaningless" phrases to each other in large inchoerent clusters to practice being smug and hateful towards their enemies. You've probably seen them around.

Are you talking about all modern western political entities? We are in the age where the most ignorantly hateful and angry win, and the arguments are won by those who are the most smug.

And I mean all political entities, even the ones I support.

Doesn't the Xeeleeverse take a huge stinking shit on HFY?

>Aliens oppress humanity
>Humanity breaks their chains and overthrows alien rule
>Humanity becomes the biggest most genocidal space assholes ever to exist in order to ensure that won't happen again.
>Pick a fight with elder gods
>Elder gods more or less ignore us.
>Humanity is ultimately inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
>Out of the goodness of their hearts the elder gods let us hitch a ride on their universe escape hatch after they lose a war with an even bigger group of elder gods.