Is there a non cringey way to have racism be a theme in your setting?

Handling it properly and not have it as
>orcs are nigger lmao

>>49789469

Yeah, assuming your group isn't full of idiots too immature to examine a theme like that. After all, racism was a real thing. Hundreds of millions of very smart, capable, or even brilliant people have been racists over the course of history. Many had good reasons to believe what they did. You just have to craft something on the same level as real life in that regard. Where racism is taken as a given, with logical reasons that people can point to in order to justify it.

>>49789469
dont be a /pol/ack and try to justify it, dont be a sjw and make it "OH SEE HOW BAD RACISM IS???!". All it takes honestly.

>>49789469
Have it be something part of the setting - like how in real history, racism (and how race was viewed) ended up becoming a major part of social stratification and the formation of classes in places like Africa or the Americas. Don't have it just be there for the sake of being there - either as a way to prove your setting is 'deep,' or to be something for your PCs to support or to knock down.

If you really think it's going to cause problems, downplay it or don't include it at all. It's not exactly necessary to any setting, or even inherent to societies with a bunch of different races or cultures.

>>49789469
Treat it seriously, don't be tempted to make it "funny" or over the top. Some players will make jokes about it regardless, but you don't want to help them with that. Also, making it too over the top tends to make it either hamfisted or comical, neither of which will help your theme.

Also, portray it neutrally, as-is. Don't try to push the idea that it's good or bad, let your players make their own moral judgement. If you try to justify it your players will miss the point (when all orcs are evil and your village just got raided by them, hating orcs isn't racism, it's just an open invitation for murderhobos), and if you try to push the idea that it's bad and unjustified it'll seem like a strawman. Just present it in a way that makes sense in the setting and let the players decide how to react to it.

Regardless of how you personally feel about racism, realize that every racist has a reason to be a racist, and that this reason is, in their own mind at least, a good one. It could be they were just raised that way, it could be that they've had bad personal experiences with that race, it could be the result of propaganda, it could be that race has gained a reputation for negative qualities (deserved or undeserved). So think about WHY people are racist in your setting, and base your interactions on that rather than on the idea of racism you want to portray.

>>49789746
>So think about WHY people are racist in your setting, and base your interactions on that rather than on the idea of racism you want to portray.

This is really the best way to think about it. People believe things for a reason, even if that reason is based on erroneous information.

>>49789469
Do it well. That's really it.

>>49789469
It seems fairly common to have orcs, goblins, cobolds, or even certain subgroups of dwarf or elf as cannon fodder/enemies.

>>49789746
>>49790284

A good way I've found to portray racism is include a lot of passive, "mild" racism that doesn't seem that bad at all, but every once in a while have an extremist or extremist group that, while not supported by the greater community, isn't condemned either.

An extremely simple example is a society that distrusts elves, and ostracizes human/elven relationships. The party is tasked to rescue the elven wife of a foreign dignitary who was kidnapped by a homegrown terror group, and while the party isn't stonewalled by the community they get the feeling the society doesn't give a fuck if the wife gets offed.

>>49789469
Why not just make it a analogy of the south during the 1960's since that's such an original idea.

>>49789469
>Is there a non cringey way to have racism be a theme in your setting?

Ditch Alignments.

>>49790284
>People believe things for a reason, even if that reason is based on erroneous information.

>Orcs have -2 Int
>"Wow look at this unenlightened racist who thinks that Orcs are dumb"

>>49789469
Start with xenophobia, literally everyone can be called xenophobic at some point of their lifes if you use a broad enough definition of the word. Specially in the past when it wasn't seen as something inherently wrong.

It's easy to establish that people likes those who behave and are like them and therefore they dislike or like less those who don't. Once you have that you can go to hate and bigger ethnic tensions. And/or transform it into racism. X people behave differently, I dislike them because of this AND they're unable to behave like us because they're not one of our blood.

Wood elves (or the people of the hills if you're not into non-human races) act like savages because they live in huts and wear pants and we ought to distrust and disregard them because of this. In fact, they're uncapable of doing anything else so we ought to distrust and disregard them even if they appear to act civilized like us dressed with togas and living in the city.

>>49789469
Right here OP. These anime girls already have you covered. >>49772865

>>49790600
Could that be the result of primitive orcish upbringings due to perpetuated racism?

Even if they start dumber, what's to stop an orc from becoming a grand wizard or a genius anyways?

It's not about whether or not people are actually equal, it's about open opportunity.

There really isn't. Condoning racism is obviously socially unacceptable. Preaching about how bad racism is gets pathetic pretty quickly. Walking a fine line between the two just makes you aware that you are engaging in a lot of effort not to be cringey, which isn't much fun and is pretty cringe-worthy itself.

Every group will have at least one insufferable cunt who wants to lecture everyone on his or her socially awkward take on race... and since the majority of those people are the white-hating side who claim that they are simply 'not racist', don't understand that they are cringe-worthy and absolutely refuse to consider 'agreeing to disagree' you can't really filter them out without being labelled a white supremacist.

>>49791082
You must live in an horrible place or live with horrible people.

>>49789469
If you find a way let me know. I have a hard time with racism in my games, so I just don't do it.

Plus if there is ever a "slave race" or a race looked down upon by just about everyone, there is always a player who wants to play that race. Which is okay, it's just not something I'm fond of working with.

I played in a game with one other player and a DM. It was the story of a vampire who had gone to sleep a few centuries in some ill-advised investment scheme. He effectively was a time traveler from the 1700s. He was hilariously and adorably racist. I played his ever-suffering butler who had been awake as a vampire this whole time, having been "promoted" shortly after his master went to sleep. It was fun, I'd do it again.

>>49791082
>playing some form of role playing game
>socially acceptable

oh boy i am laffing

Why would you want it? It's not like racism is a fun or necessary aspect of existence and must be translated into a PnP, it's just shitty people being shitty people. Of all the work it takes to make an interesting, convincing, lore-filled world, why work extra hard to make racism a thing? What's it adding? Why would you want to do it? I just can't wrap my head around it.

>>49791428
Why put in the effort to make anything a thing in your setting? Why even bother making a setting? Why do anything at all? Why live?

>in a world without racism

immersion breaking as fuck to be completely honest

>>49791472
To not make logical fallacies. Unfortunately your fallacy still doesn't answer my question.

>>49791428
The presence of racism in a setting has the potential to allow some interesting character interactions.
As with all things with potential, this potential can be wasted. A bad GM can ruin even the best of settings.

>>49791550
What character interactions could those possibly be? Why imitate a real life issue of hatred, oppression, even injury and death, for the sake of "realism?" How do you make it fun? Is it really that fun for you? Wouldn't it be more fun to just play the game within slightly more mild boundaries? Do you guys also include rape in your stories?

If you're going to incorporate racism, don't make it overt unless it's the focus of a setting (which is likely to be cringey). Look up anti-discrimination laws as good inspiration for subtle ways people can treat others they're racist toward.

Yes but not by me or anyone I play with.

>>49790933
It's a racial trait dummy. An orc could be brought up in a cities amongst humans and still be the same.

Moral of the story: If the racism you want to portray has the message of "...But we're all the same deep down" don't use DnD, which operates on entirely different logic.

>>49789469
Make the races different but not necessarily bad. Have their motives differ culturally and their abilities different than the main people.

Different isn't bad but motives can get crossed. Justification is up to the player.

>>49791602
People play games for different reasons. Chances are if somebody is talking themes they're in it for the storytelling. There are plenty of stories that deal with racism, why shouldn't collaborates ones? There's nothing wrong with tackling subjects like this and making stories of them. It's pretty ridiculous to assume otherwise. Your definition of fun is not the universal definition of fun, believe it or not.

But no. Everyone needs to play the same game as you and enjoy their games in the exact same way as you. You're daft mate. Grow up.

Besides racist themes have been G rated for years, where have you been?

>>49791602
Let's not forget that the primary mechanic of D&D (and for that matter, most RPGs) is murder. Racism is pretty nasty, yes, but it's not really much less nasty than a lot of the things already present in most RPGs.
I think to run it in a compelling way you'd need a DM that was really sensitive to other people and could adapt as needed, without crossing certain lines within the group.

>>49789469

Yes. Don't play it for comedy.

Generally, whenever racism shows up in my games, I make sure the racists have an actual point. It's like when a young, nubile woman is about to be burnt at the stake for being a witch, and desperately needs a white knight to saddle up and come to the rescue.

Guess what? She's a fucking witch, and she'll thank you by eating your soul.

I've set a game in the Middle East, and I've relished watching my players squirm. I've pointed out things like them stoning adulterers as background flavor. (Oddly, this was my most successful game.)

>>49789573
>GREENED

>>49789469
You see /pol/? OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

Actual arguments, reasons substantiated, people realizing that they're biased and why this is bullshit yet chosing to do so anyway because experience and shit. Nothing too overt, yet never subtle. Rarely in your face kind of racism, rather, something like a mind fortress, or in the case of educated people, like an ivory tower of indiference and shit.

Have bullshit reasons support actual reasons up to a point, for example, religious mandates, false charges, etc. Have the other side be racist against them too, but never in the same level, that'd be artificial as fuck; either more or less racist by a good ammount, and either more or less conscious by a smaller ammount.

Have racism correlate with RL factors, for example, poorfags and idiots will be more racist than average and the rest may shake their head in shame, embarrassment or disgust (depending on the level of disagreement), while still being racist themselves. Maybe if racism is too stronk and people are way too fucked, you'll see genocidal pollitics or crusade attempts.

Have a third group that basically dindu nuffin (for real this time) caught in the conflict for being in a bad place at a bad time, being small in numbers, constantly accossed by the others, ask yourself why they don't leave. If your setting is dark, go full strange fruit and have them hanging by the trees, make this shit serious, have a real impact and everybody pretending they didn't cross the line, as if they don't give a fuck (a few psychos happy about it, some NPCs ridden with guilt and shit).

Make a pair of possible quest branches search for one or two kinds of radicals and have the group involved in shallow levels of complex pollitical intrigue, anything they do will benefit one side over the other and preventing a collapse might be impossible depending on the circumstances.

Also, another question, Who benefits from this? Who exploits the smaller groups or scapegoats them?

This has been a surprisingly good thread. Color me impressed.

But yeah my own thoughts are mostly reiterations of what's been said. Present it as neutrally as possible, and make sure there is a definitive justification for its existence. Doesn't have to be good or factual, there just has to be a reason you can point to.

>>49790933
>what's to stop an orc from becoming a grand wizard
Jeeze, I heard the kkk was trying to loosen up a bit but I didn't know things had gone that far.

>>49789469
>cringey

>>49790600
There's a difference between racism and race-realism. Acknowledging that half-orcs are a bit dumber than humans on average isn't racism, treating them like shit because of it is.

I worked with a Korean guy in California who was like this. He believed that the races had different levels of average intelligence, but he didn't think that was a reason to mistreat anybody. Just because Koreans (naturally) are smarter than everyone else doesn't mean they should get extra rights, and vice versa.

Prior to the modern age I think most racism was like that. Unless there was a history of war or whatever between people, they didn't really hate other races, they just thought they were different and didn't expect them to think and feel things the same way as they themselves did.

reading this thread i feel an idea abrewing.

This is the country of Zo.
While it is located in a fiendish, hostile world. Inside the borders of Zo, folks find shelter, prosperity and even a home.
Zo is divided in so-and-so many provices. A few are inhabited by dorfs which put an emphasis on beeing left alone by everyone else and from time to time they war with the pointy ears over real and imagined threats and insults. Their unbreachable mountain homes give them at least some autonomity from the pointy eard slackers. Sadly for the dorfs, its damn near impossible to grow any crops under earth, safe for foul tasting mushrooms.
The elves consider themselfs the supreme rulers of all of Zo. Despite fewer in numbers then even the dorfs, noone can contest them. Their martial skills have no equal and their arch mages wield the powers that protect Zo altogether. They are like a magic Sparta. They also dont produce any resources on their own (dirty manual labor is below them). Instead they enforce tithes from the dorfs and humans. If not obeyed willingly they simply raid and loot what they want, or, if presented with resistance, they lift the magic barrier that protects the unruly province and happyly watch nature do its thing.
The elves seperate harshly between the peoples that give them their tithes grumpyly and the ones that do so with a willing smile.
Towards loyal subject they are friendly, defending them against any aggressor, organize a school system, sharing their medicins and such.
No PC can be an elv.
The humans are the biggest group. Each province controlled by humans claims to be a kingdom in his own right. They trade and war each other as they please, for the elves only care when their close friends are attacked or when their tithes are endangered. As a rule, that is. They elves know that hey can controll the humans best when they divide them. If a human kingdom is on the brink of conquering a neighbour altogether the elves will step in.

>>49794601

while humans are able to wield magic, the elves forbid it. It would be possible for a human mage to disrupt the magic barrier that protects Zo, thats why. Alas, the elves are often times so concerned about themselfs that some human mages are able to pratice and teach in secret. There is no "detect magic" spell but the elves do control some sort of detection device unbeknown to humans.

The dorfs want to be left alone, hoping to simply outlive the elves. Their Loremaster, Kings, Archsmiths and Priest work without end to find a way to full autonomy. Of course the elves try their best to prevent that.

The human folks labour most of the time to support themselfs and their elven masters. Their feudal system keeps them entangled in feuds, wars and occasional barrier breaches from the outside world.

The elves want to evolve themselfs into flawless beings and are willing to enslave everyone else so they can focus their time and energy on getting better in everything. They know that they need their "protected childs" to feed the elven folk.

>>49794018
Underrated post. I kek'd.

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>>49789469
make it funny

It's obviously possible.
I mean they literally just made a Disney movie about it.

The people who are saying to not do racism as "funny" or over the top must either play with some really thin-skinned individuals or their entire group is all full of white guilt.

For example Shadowrun's racism is amusing(dandelion eaters) and over-the-top and it works fine for that setting because it's fantasy racism that's absurd when compared to real world racism and the racism in the game really has no bearing on affecting discrimination in real world events. Trying to implement racism in a "real-world" or realistic type campaign or scenario however is going to be dicey unless you really happen to be an expert on how things were in that timeframe or the culture in question. That being said, know your group very well. To use a Shadowrun example again, if the black guy is playing Uncle from Jackie Chan adventures with a full HK accent and the asian guy is playing a phys ad who's a fan of 20th century Wesley Snipes movies with the melanin control power going around talking like a black "gangsta type" and they're both getting along fantastically and laughing about it, then I think the group is alright with it(and yes this is my current group.)

>>49795955
>a full HK accent
>talking like a black "gangsta type"

OP asked for it not to be cringey.

>>49796324

It's not cringey, it's just going full ham.

>>49789593

It's hard because of this. Either these games turn into cliche'd morality tales that have been done to death (and in a fantasy setting may not even apply given that races are, you know, actual different species with objective stat differences), or you have a loathsome /pol/tard gleefully evil for the sake of it thing that is usually A) overdone, and B) pretty awful to begin with.

James Clavell does the best job with this in fiction. He has racism in his stories, but usually shows each culture being racist towards one another. It often but doesn't always cause people to miss opportunities/allies/trade partners who they otherwise would have profited from working with. It's an underlying subtext without taking over the plot.

Most GMs in an RPG don't have that kind of deft hand. I'd avoid the subject entirely, especially since many games are played on college campuses where something you say or do might get you disciplined or expelled even if it's entirely innocent.

>>49789583
Pretty much this.

Have something like certain races not allowed in certain cities because those cities get constantly attacked by raiders belonging to that forbidden race.

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>>49794126
>Prior to the modern age I think most racism was like that. Unless there was a history of war or whatever between people, they didn't really hate other races, they just thought they were different and didn't expect them to think and feel things the same way as they themselves did.

No. Really really no. Everything else you've said is nice and agreeable, but until recently the idea that foreigners were even people at all wasn't really a thing.

Although racism based on colour would have been more common. If an asian merchant somehow reached italy in the BC times, he'd be an object of fascination more than anything else. Back in the day the people you hated the most were the people who lived closest and fucked you over hardest.

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>>49794018
>orks start to believe they are the master race
>everything the orks believe becomes true
GREEN IS BEST!

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>>49794126
>Prior to the modern age I think most racism was like that.
>implying that people even considered other countries human until recently
top kek m8

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The witcher 2 handled bad race relations pretty well

>>49796582
>the idea that foreigners were even people at all wasn't really a thing.

So you've never read Othello? You've never heard of Richard the Lionhearted exchanging gifts and being penpals with Solomon? I'm thinking you never heard of people in Italy trading with the weird-looking Muslims who were right next to them, or the vast trade networks that stretched from India to England?

The medieval world wasn't as closed off as you think, and while there was most definitely something akin to racism or xenophobia, people dealt with and spoke to foreigners. There were missionaries in medieval china, and Chinese who took a trip over to Europe.

Amusingly though, what you've said does apply to native Americans. They had to have a debate questioning if Indians were human or not, and if they had souls.

>>49796754
Do note that you are referring to learned individuals and merchants in your post.

An average farmer/city guard/anyone else who hardly moves 10 kilometers away from the base they are born in are going to be amazed that there can be people who look different to themselves.

Also like the anon above said, folks from very far away were oddities while folks much closer were the sort you mostly had an axe to grind with.

>>49796728
I liked the quest where you can investigate a guards murder thats being pinned on an elf by a town that hates elves and it turns out shes actually guilty and she was a spy.

>>49796794
>folks from very far away were oddities while folks much closer were the sort you mostly had an axe to grind with.

Sure, fair enough, but in parts of Italy dealing with brown-skinned people was blasé, even for what we'd call middle-class people and the poor.

I'm not trying to be a doucheprick over here, but even the poor and ignorant could have a sense of people who looked differently than them. I agree that the further east and further north one looks at, the less likely this is to be true, but there were Moorish ghettos in Spain and I've read a number of inquisition records talking about how these different people lived among the Spanish and were easily identifiable as outsiders (even after converting). These were from the 1500s, but I think you can make a case that the Renaissance is medieval-ish, or at the very least brownish people didn't suddenly pop into existence in the 1500s.

Basically I'm just trying to get across that every place was not medieval England; sometimes the peasantry saw different groups of people and did not lynch them or call everyone from miles around to come look at these dudes.

>>49796869
Because that's actually clever and thought-provoking. The problem I have with introducing themes like racism and sexism into games is that more often than not they're hamfisted attempts at forcing an ideological viewpoint. First of all, you can't play the "race is only skin deep" shit when a single elf can outlive several generations of human, or that orcs are just *naturally* dumber.

Themes like that should be used to explore new stories and subvert expectations, not for soapboxing.

>>49789469
I generally go for classical/Roman style racism. Each race is viewed as having inherent virtues and vices. For instance, the Romans believed that their racial virtues were their patriotism, engineering, and disciplined military. Their vices was mostly their comparative physical weakness (they were comparing themselves to Gauls and Germans who were raised on a generally better diet and tended to grow stronger and taller) and a tendency for their nobility to be indolent.

They viewed the virtues of the Germans as being that they are tall, fearless, and were quick to act. However, they believed their vices were an inability to assimilate to properly settled society and that they lacked stamina.

Each race thinks that its virtues are the best, without discounting the simple existence of the virtues of other races. An Elf partaking in classical racism, for instance, would have no problem saying straight up that Humans are better heavy line infantry or that Orcs are better flanking shock troops. However, they would view their one on one superiority, bowmanship, and probably magic (depending on the setting) as being overall the better choice. Naturally this would depend on the type of Elf.

That's basically how I do it; my not-Scythians can actually get a job teaching young or urban nobles how to ride a horse in not-Europe based on their accent and facial features. While the not-Europeans believe their tactics are superior, they think the not-Scythians are inherently better horsemen by simple virtue of their blood.

>>49789583
>was
even leaving aside american meme racism, people are literally massacring women and children over minute tribal variances right now.

I vote >>49789593
Just be mature and honest. Shit is bad but don't get preachy

>>49797168
>Each race is viewed as having inherent virtues and vices

ah, so it reflects reality then.

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just keep up the banz and don't make it modern racism.

>>49797193
i mean, most people can realize racism is bad because treating a person like shit based on superficial shit is pretty awful so

I dunno my setting literally has the racisms but i don't think its a problem with a mature group. Races might shit on eachother but like
>>49797256
said

remember this is for fun, bantz are where its at

>>49789469
No, as racism itself has been memed into cringe status. It is a natural state for all beings to fear and attack the other so it shouldn't even be considered bizarre that after decades of living next to an outside tribe some creatures have built up a number of grievances against their neighbors and decided to eradicate them and be done with it.

>>49797435
or you know literally being enslaved by those dickass humans

who enslaved your people because they thought they were incredibly strong savages, perfect for manual labor

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>>49796754
No, they didn't. Neither side in the Valladolid debate thought that Indians didn't have souls.