Atheist Fantasy Setting

>>49766529

The problem with atheism is that it's fundamentally boring, as it takes the mystery out of the world. And man, do I have a lot of shit to say about His Dark Materials but especially The Amber Spyglass.

>>49766555
>atheism is boring

Literally the only thing it removes is the presence of a god or gods.

Do you really think any subject not relating to god(s) is boring?

>>49766555
What problems are those?

And Athiesm most certainly does not take the mystery out of the world. In fact it makes everything much more fascinating. Theism lacks the joy of discovery since everything is already known by a god. There's no experimentation or learning, just repetition.

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>>49766529
Not to put too fine a point on it champ but we don't call Tolkien a "Catholic Fantasy Setting," nor do we call Stormlight Archives a "Mormon Fantasy Setting," they're just fantasy settings written by people who happen to hold certain religious beliefs. That's why they work.

If, from conception, your fantasy setting exists to express and push an ideology, it's going to be fuckin queer. This would be true even if the ideology you're pushing is like totally benign. If I wrote a fantasy setting around the tenants of Democracy, it'd still be fucking gay. If I wrote a fantasy setting around fascism, it'd be novel at least, but it'd still be fucking gay. Maybe more gay because the uniforms would be sick af but you get what I mean.

What is this thing, with trying to squeeze identity politics into everything. You know Gary Gygax distanced his own religious beliefs from D&D intentionally? He worked very hard to do that, because people of all denominations play games, and why would you alienate people who don't share yours from your game?

I dunno m8. Also HDM sucked dick. And not like the good sucking dick, the drunken half-assed kind where the guy's had too much and he's not really in the moment, and she keeps checking her phone. You do what you want I guess.

>>49766529
>Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

I suggest that you learn how to spell "rogue" correctly.

On a more constructive note, you should strongly consider vetting your players before running a game like this. Nothing ruins the flow of a game faster than a player taking offense at its setting.

>>49766529
>>The "Mage" class is closer to an alchemist, making explosive potions or electrical gadgets.
>>The "Cleric/Bard" is something like the a Witcher, in that they use potions to buff themselves and others.
Why the fuck are you using D&D, a magic-focused system, for a setting with no magic.

>>49766555
Gee, I sure am glad you're not posting those things you have to say.

If you truly believe there can be no mystery without gods, anything you say is going to be really, really stupid.

>>49766754
>D&D is the only system with a Healer and Mage class

But there was magic an there were gods in HDM? We even ser the setting equivalent's of THE God and everything!

There's also witches and the Realm of the Dead...

>>49766809
that's why I said it was quite different from what I wanted to do.

>>49766786
He'd have to reach pretty deep to find anything as stupid as OP's premise.

>The ebil church was holding back all that technological progress
>Oh but they have holograms and bio-engineered monsters

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>>49766739
I think gaming is a fantastic way to share ideas. Playing a game about atheism would lead into discussions about it, and maybe open some people up so the idea of atheism. Especially if they're already questioning their faith.

>>49766827
Why is the church keeping progress under their thumb and making themselves the sole proprietors of old technology unrealistic? In ancient Greece the church used clockworks to simulate miracles and fool people. This is no different.

Even today they do it, like with the Miracle of St. Januarius. See: http://skepdic.com/januarius.html

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>>49766863
>people play games so that they can be proselytized to by some fedora for two hours
Yeah, whatever bro. You have fun with your propaganda thing. I'm sure this idea'll fly for miles.

>>49766529
So, is there any actual fantasy, or is it just super-soft science-fiction with a medieval backdrop?

>>49766966
I wouldn't say it's that soft.

What do you mean by "actual fantasy" though? It's got quests, monsters, kingdoms, and everything that makes up a fantastic world.

>>49766529
The only thing necessary for an atheist fantasy setting is to not have gods. It could very well have magic and supernatural creatures and shit. If that's your only objective this elaborate Sufficently Advanced Technology setup seems superflous.

Like >>49766741 I would suggest asking your players about the campaign first.
And being very careful about how you present the whole shebang. You want to open people to the idea of atheism, not rub "Gee those religious people and their invisible sky dad sure are stupid, amirite?" in their faces over and over again.

>>49766863
Making a thing in which the idea you like is True and Good and the idea you don't is False and Evil is not a good way to share ideas, regardless of whether its a game, a book or a movie.

I suggest you first have a go with a more usual fantasy setting, set it in a nation with a focus of arcane wizardry that do not worship any gods (yea, do not add any "god of magic"). Make them equal standing allies with a nearby religious nation; they do not oppose the religions, they just each do their own separate things. And they unite versus some of a typical archvillain plot, out to extinguish both arcane and divine.

>>49766529
OP did you consider the fact that most fantasy worlds are atheist worlds
The "gods" are basically just super high level characters

>>49766863
>Why is the church keeping progress under their thumb and making themselves the sole proprietors of old technology unrealistic?

Because generally churches, as places with highly educated and comfortable people with a good amount of free time were great for the development of science.

OP, you know how everyone, generally speaking, thought the Sword of Truth novels were fucking garbage because they were just Terry Goodkind using bizarre false equivalences through a fantasy setting to push his right-wing agenda?

Do you remember how a Song of Ice and Fire (the books, at least) and Lord of the Rings don't contain a shred of their authors' overall political or religious beliefs and are super popular for it?

Learn from the mistakes of others, or repeat them. Speaking as an atheist, nobody wants to be part of your ideological circle-jerk. Other atheists will find it painfully self-congratulatory, non-atheists will find it smug and off-putting.

>>49767082
They were not necessarily good for the proliferation of science however.

>>49767108

Generally they were pretty good. I mean, they sponsored universities and education.

Heck, even the much maligned story of Galileo had the pope as his greatest supporter up until the point where Galileo printed an entire book literally saying 'Everyone who disagrees with me is a complete idiot, including the pope' and tried to teach his unproven theory as fact. His theory at this point did not actually have enough development to deal with most of the scientific issues it threw up with known steller mechanics. He completely failed as a scientist in the area of 'Test your hypothesis before you claim it's true'. He's just fortunate that his theories turned out to be right in the end.

>>49767057
Well that wouldn't be atheism either--the Greek Gods were essentially just high level characters, as were the Hindu gods. Most fantasy settings are only "atheist" if you use a strictly Judeo-Christian version of theism, where a "god" is necessarily an omnipotent, omniscience entity.

Not that this matters, since what the OP is more than a setting that happens to be atheistic, it is a capital-A Atheist propaganda vehicle, intended to hamfistedly batter home his very specific ideological message.

Take for instance the insistence that there be no magic. That it be set in our own world, but in the future. That everything have an explanation rooted in the real world, that, ultimately, it be a science fiction setting with the paraphernalia of fantasy layered over it.

Now this has been done well before. I have a funny example: A Cantacle for Leibowitz, which was about Christian monks in a post-apocalyptic future that had become indistinguishable from a fantasy setting. Now this had the benefit of being done well, and of not having an ideological message. Great book, read it if you haven't.

But it isn't fantasy. Fantasy requires the fantastical. It requires a premise that is beyond the ordinary, and beyond the mundane, and beyond the known. It does not necessarily require magic or gods or monsters--but it does require that something be fundamentally different than it is in our own world. If you are just writing about our world in a possible future you aren't writing fantasy really, you're writing science fiction. Look at the way he puzzles as to why his proposal isn't fantasy. But it has quests, it has monsters, it has heroes. So does real life. That does not make something fantasy except in the most superficial of ways. Literally semantics.

>>49766863
>I think gaming is a fantastic way to share ideas. Playing a game about atheism would lead into discussions about it, and maybe open some people up so the idea of atheism. Especially if they're already questioning their faith.

Do you expect Christians to do the same?

I'd also note that the church does not actually support the Miracle of St Januarius, it's neutral on the subject (As opening the vials to test them would likely damage the contents beyond repair). They support the celebrations of his life but not the whole melting blood thing.

>>49767169
He also did it with the church's money. Nobody seems to remember that Galileo worked for the Pope, and was a personal friend of his. Broke contract, broke publishing law, and did it with his employer's money. That's why he was convicted in a secular court, he committed secular crimes.

>>49767190

Yeah. The pope made him a deal:

>We'll give you the cash to publish your untested theories if you publish a book that examines the evidence for it and the evidence for current theories so people can read it and learn about both theories.

What Galileo published:

>This is a 'Neutral' dialog between two characters where the guy arguing against my theories is literally called Simplicio and my handsome, charismatic sexual tyrannosaurus main character and the 'neutral' guy insult him all the time.

The man may have been right in the end but he also knew how to throw a fantastic shitfit.

>>49767257
kek, it sounds like a political cartoon in written form.

>I'M SILLY AND INCOHERENT

>>49766529
>The obvious source material,of course, is His Dark Materials,
I sincerely hope you don't intend to draw inspiration from the latter books. They're practically a case study in heavyhandedness and shoehorning themes that the prior work doesn't support.

It's like the author realized at the start of the third book that he wasn't being atheist enough, so he decided to triple down to make up for it.
And even then it contradicts itself in tone. "Oh boy, God is dead and mankind is its own master. Buuuuuuut we still need to make Dust, which just happens to be created when people follow a system of morality pretty much identical to Christianity sans the first Commandment."

>>49766529

The far future thing sounds like a bad YA novel cop out. If you're making a fantasy game, make it fantasy, don't rationalize it.

You can have magic and fantasy creatures without gods, creatures can simply evolve much more divergent. Magic can be more like Renaissance natural magic or spectacular proto-science, where understanding the world grants the powers of influencing it.

And maybe it's just me, but the idea of playing a Tsarist/Soviet secret police inquisition rooting out and persecuting your ideological enemies seems more like you're actually playing the evil villain side? Usually fantasy heroes are the underdogs, so it would make more sense to base it around a kind of Renaissance/Enlightenment political situation where there is a powerstruggle between the church and secular rulers, with some courts being centers of refuge for freethinkers and the like, while other areas are defending against what they perceive as heresy and demonology.

And finally, games should be fun, not soap-boxing. The idea of making a godless fantasy world is fine, but the purpose should be to create an interesting world to explore, not to propagandize, since that will kill any fun off even before you start play.

>>49767173
>>49767057
>The "gods" are basically just super high level characters
>Well that wouldn't be atheism either--the Greek Gods were essentially just high level characters, as were the Hindu gods.
Not really, no. They were (or their progenitors were) at the origins of the world.

>>49767091
>Do you remember how a Song of Ice and Fire... don't contain a shred of their authors' overall political beliefs

I disagree entirely. Feminism and anti-war are hugely prevalent in ASoIaF.

>>49767108
That's literally wrong, sir. They did a better job than any secular institution at the time, and it wasn't supposed to BE their job.

Look, when the Goths invaded Italy, what happened? The Gothic Wars. Massive destruction, total shitshow. Everything got burned. Latin culture ceased to exist overnight. Did the church ask those fucking snowniggers to roll in and burn down their entire country? I imagine they didn't. They got saddled with the burden of a thousand years of history to preserve because they were the only ones who weren't killed.

So the only people left with literacy and even a modest library were some monks and some priests. From that moment for like 600 years, these people struggled tirelessly, TIRELESSLY to preserve and disseminate everything that they had left. Charlamagne learned how to write because Priests insisted on teaching him. He thought having to read out loud was lame so he asked them to fix writing. Some priests came up with the crazy idea of putting spaces in between words.
BAM. Modern script. Some priests on a rabbit farm in West Frankia. Suddenly reading doesn't require a college degree. Suddenly people can learn how to read in like six weeks instead of ten years. If their plan was to keep knowledge out of the hands of the grubby masses, why do it? Hell we even know now that most peasants during the medieval period knew how to read some LATIN because they wanted to check their shit on the taxman's forms. Who did they learn it from?

Two guesses, the year is 900 AD, do you learn Latin from:
A: Your local public school
B: Your mum
C: Some monks

>>49767306
I mean that'd be Chronos and Gaia, but Zeus fucking rekt Chronos. He was also just a guy--he was just a big guy. They weren't omnipotent. They were perfect, but also imperfect. Ares kept getting his ass kicked by mortals. Zeus was like Max Hardcore with thunderbolts. Vulcan was literally a gimp. It was very different from this modern, almost pantheistic idea of an omnipresent god that some cultures had. The Christians, some Native Americans, the fucking Aztecs (lawdy, the Aztecs) and the Mongols were like that. Not all religions are the same.

The idea of someone going and kicking Tengri's ass wouldn't have even been possible to articulate in Mongol mythology. Tengri is the fucking sky. How do you fight the sky?
But the Greeks had stories of Ares running away like a little bitch from mortal men.

>>49767309
>Feminism
GRRM isn't a feminist and has openly said as much.
>Anti-war
Almost all of the main characters accomplish some or most of their goals through warfare and violence.

>>49767309
I mean, I like Preston Jacobs as much as the next guy, but name one female ruler in ASOIAF who isn't a total fuckup.

If you want to do "atheist" fantasy you could draw inspiration from gnosticism. Just cut out the higher "good" deities but keep all the stuff about parasitic archons. The "gods" are just higher dimensional beings sucking the magical loosh out of humanity. Sorcerers are potentially blasphemous because they use their loosh to alter reality in ways beneficial to themselves instead of surrendering their loosh to thirsty parasite "gods".

It always amazes me that this board is so utterly contrarian as to switch arguments based on which is least popular. Five years ago, admitted christfags got blown off the board by ranting fedoras. Lately, fedoras get drowned in pro-Catholic viewpoints. It's amazing to watch.
Shine on, you crazy diamonds. I love you all

>>49767399
Honestly we'd be saying the same shit if OP was trying to run a Christian fantasy setting. In fact, I've seen exactly that happen in the past.

There's a huge range of views and opinions on /tg/, but I like to think we're mostly of the mind that forcing an agenda into your game is bad regardless of what it is.

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>>49766529
>Atheist campaign setting

How about throwing in Randian self-interest and male rights activism in for good measure? Your players would love that.

>>49767377
>name one ruler in ASOIAF who isn't a total fuckup.
FTFY.

>>49767367
>Almost all of the main characters accomplish some or most of their goals through warfare and violence.

Which apparently is mostly dying. Having all of their close kin die. Getting maimed, humiliated, and then dying violently. Buying it by getting stabbed in the back by the only person you still trust just before attaining your life goal of burning down all the traitorous scum infesting your capital city. Etc, etc.

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>>49767399
Rule 1: Never punch down.
Rule 2: Never lie.

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>>49766739
menorah tipper detected

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>>49767419
Terry Goodkind did it already. Sold like 6 trillion copies.

>>49767434
Except the three big, main protagonists who have all done pretty damn well out of it.

>>49767427
>>name one person in ASOIAF who isn't a total fuckup.
>>FTFY.
FTFFY

>>49767173
No, the Greek and Hindu gods were made up. They were not real. In most fantasy settings involving gods, these gods can actually talk to you face to face.

I know what you mean, but do not think that the setting of Greek gods is actually ancient Greece. Because in real ancient Greece, there were no gods. People though there were, but that's another thing entirely.

You see the difference?

>>49767499
Thank you for the correction.

>>49767416
Yeah. I mean, I'd have nothing against it if the setting is based off of Christian mythology or whatever, just like I don't care that The Witcher doesn't have gods.

It's once you start getting this heavy-handed "I'm gonna convert people!" attitude that my nose starts to wrinkle. Who the fuck do you think you are, seriously.

>>49767478
Remember when one of the villains tried to lobby to have fire banned, because people die in fires?

I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other on the gun control debate, but there's building a strawman and then there's just having an argument with a pile of hay.

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>>49767507
See the difference between what and what? I am saying that in Greek mythology, the gods were essentially D&D gods, whereas Abrahamic Mythology and certain others are very different. Less human, explicitly omnipotent. Not just "high level characters," but entities of a wholly different type.

I don't think you do know what I mean, because nobody is talking about the distinction between real life and mythology. What does that have to do with anything?

>>49767523
I totally didn't get that connection until you just said it, I thought that was just supposed to be him being crazy.

This is the same guy who convinced a child to love him like a father, and then poured molten lead down his throat. Good Guy Darken Rahl, #1 motherfucker in
Shit what was his country's name.

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>>49767507
>Hindu gods were made up. They were not real

u cant say that about shiva the destroyer bruv

>>49767574
D'hara. Nailed it.

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>>49767593
>say that to my faces not online and see what happens you little bitch

>>49767434
do you think depicting the brutality of war is antiwar propaganda? Are you a pussy, son?

>>49767563
What I'm saying is that the Greek mythology setting is atheist. The gods are nothing special, just powerful magic creatures.

>>49766806
>Cleric/Bard [is healer/buffer]

>He said healer, guyz, honest!

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>>49766529
>enlightenment
>Church prevented progress
>ALL kingdoms decided to separate from the church because ??? even though they likely have centuries of history
>Church is inherently evil
It's like you're taking all the good out of atheism and throwing it out the fucking window to only keep the fedora-tipping self-enlightenment bullshit

>>49766529
I know it's not the topic but how good is "His dark materials ?"

>>49767173
>-the Greek Gods were essentially just high level characters, as were the Hindu gods

absolutely not, read anything by ancient Greeks or Hindus talking about their Gods.

>>49766529
i dont really see why magic has to go away for it to be an atheist setting? why cant the mage still be a mage?

>>49767691
It's good YA. There are some problems in it, but there are some strokes of brilliant prose that left me all tingly. The plot is heeh, alright. I liked the romance though. It was nice and fuzzy.

>>49767298
>If you're making a fantasy game, make it fantasy
magic isn't real

>>49767397
>If you want to do "atheist" fantasy you could draw inspiration from gnosticism.
That is anti-abrahamism, not anti-theism. Which by the way should be how OP should have described his whole settings: anti-theist, not atheist. There is nothing wrong with an "atheist" setting, that is one where gods are not real. But it's the anti-theist message, the shallow, ignorant "look at how smart we are for hating religion, religion is just stupid and fraud, look at how cool we are for saying that!" shit that makes OP's post really so damn cringe worthy. It's why people mock him: it's not because people here are particularly pro-religious, it's that people here are quite sensitive to insecurity and immaturity. The whole "fedora" thing was never intended to make fun of atheism, it was intended to make fun of the kind of "euphoric with my own enlightement" type of atheism.

>>49767712
>Reading comprehension

>>49767434
do you think the Illiad has an anti war sentiment as well?

>>49767750
>do you think the Illiad has an anti war sentiment as well?
Not him, but yes, actually.

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>>49767650
I actually have no words to describe what I'm feeling right now. Do you understand how ridiculous you sound?

This mythology... Which centers around gods, doing godlike things in their godlike way, in their godfortress on mount godmountain, is atheist. And your reasoning for this is that you do not accept any definition of gods (which you don't believe in) except for the ONE religion that you also don't believe in that defines a god as an omnipotent, omniscient entity?

Are you OP? If so, why not just have Zeus rolling around on a stormcloud throwing thunderbolts at people? He'll fit right in in your atheist setting!

>>49767612
Nobody mentioned propaganda, "kiddo".

>>49767693
The sources seem to differ in levity, but at least a few involve Ares getting his ass whipped by mortals and demigods.

>>49767769
fair enough, but that's ignoring the Greek view on War of the time which most of the people would have shared when telling the stories it's compiled of.

>>49767750
Once again, I said nothing about anti-war anything, now did I?

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>This fucking thread
If we had ten men as good at this as you guys on /pol/, we'd be marching through Paris by the end of the week.

>>49767828
pls leave Paris alone

>>49766529
There is nothing wrong with the setup on base level. Hell, I use a very similar one:
A post-advanced society, land littered with remnants of highly advanced technologies, changed by bio-engineering, populated by people who do not know their own history and do not understand the technologies, believe it to be magic: "mage" classes being basically alchemists and people with fragments of knowledge of ancient technologies giving them seemingly magical powers...

It's the pure anti-religious sentiment that will make anyone with half a brain (no matter if an atheist or a believer) cringe like fucking hell.

For someone talking about enlightement and progress, you push the vision of religion that makes even the most fundamentalists view of science look sophisticated and enlightened.

It's pure masturbation of naive dislike for religion, based on fundamental misunderstanding of what it really is or how it works. Reducing religion to a single church, then painting the ENTIRETY of the church as absolute evil guys whose removal immediately drives progress and enlightement, as exclusive frauds and seriously a saturday morning tier villains is pathetic, and actually speaks very poorly of you.

>>49767691
First and second books are really cool, but sort of feel dated in the sense that the YA tropes they lean into have become mostly parody fuel by now. Cool concept. Cool 'feel', for whatever that's worth.

Third book is much more heavy handed and a lot less fun to read as a result. I'd say pick up Compass, and if you like it, pick up Knife, and if you REALLY like it, pick up Spyglass.

>>49767794
War was seen as terrible, which is why it was glorious to excel at it. Much as life itself.

But if you actually read the Iliad, the greatest heroes do their best to avoid actually going to war, and the noblest do their best to avoid it, only to be railroaded into it by spiteful gods and incompetent mortals.

>>49767792
sure, myths often do depict this, similarely as to how the Abrahamic God sometimes is stated to be beatable (by iron chariots for example), or decievable.

But these didn't translate into the practical view on them outside of an alligorical way. If you look at how Diogenes talks about the gods, how the characters in Sophokles do, how often perfect virtue, perfect foresight, immortality, are attritbuted to "the god" with protagoras, plato, Hesiod, Aristotle... it's just not a fair picture to say: Oh, in the myths they seem human, so that's how they were viewed in the cultus.

>>49767850
the greatest hero of the illiad is defined by not being railroaded into it but choosing it.

And that view of war that you describe is inconsistent with Greek raiding, Hoplite culture, on-battlefield looting etc.

>>49767794
One of the most fundamental messages of Illiad is how war - a notion that itself was not viewed as inherently a wrong thing - can get out of hand and end up absolutely terrifying and destructive. The ancient Greeks did not shy from warfare and violence, they considered those as fairly natural parts of life. For the most part. It was a necessity, if nothing else.
But the war of Troy was different. It was a war gone REALLY wrong. It is a cautionary tale of what happens when you let war and war-driving ambitions and sentiments unchecked and uncontrolled.

The story does not tell you that we should get rid of wars altogether, which would be a silly and stupid sentiment. But it's a story about how we should always keep our war-mongering impulses in check, because they might immediately turn against us and consume nearly the whole world. Which almost happens.

I think the message of SoIaF has a slightly different point to make, but I do agree with the other guy in that it has some inherent idealistic undertones to it.

>>49767877
>the greatest hero of the illiad is defined by not being railroaded into it but choosing it.
Actually, the greatest hero of Illiad is the man who tries to pretend insanity in order to avoid having to join the war in the first place. Odysseus is the real hero here. And he is the one who really, REALLY does not want to be there, who despises war.

>>49767860
The book does not say that God was beatable by iron chariots. It said that the Judeans had God on their side, but they encountered trouble with one enemy position because they had these sick chariots. It never says that Yahweh came down out of the sky and got his block knocked off by some guy on a chariot.

I do understand your point of course, but the root of the argument was that the popular mythological depiction of the Greek gods that we're all familiar with was different from this idea of a nebulous omnipresent god.

>>49767887
>>49767916
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aofPdMbXzUQ

I do not often post this cunt but he did a really good video on the Iliad. It isn't really an anti-war or pro-war story, it's a saga that depicts both the horrors and glories of war, preparing those who read it for fuckery and success alike.

>>49766739
>Not to put too fine a point on it champ but we don't call Tolkien a "Catholic Fantasy Setting," nor do we call Stormlight Archives a "Mormon Fantasy Setting," they're just fantasy settings written by people who happen to hold certain religious beliefs. That's why they work.


I completely see your point, but there are works that are completely inseparable from the opinions of their writers. So while we might not consider Middle Earth "Catholic Fantasy" we do consider Narnia "Christian Fantasy." HDM was written in response specifically to Narnia. I liked HDM well enough, and I especially liked the concept of the Dust.

This is all tangential i guess. OP, your setting sounds rad, just make sure its a backdrop for an actual game.

>>49767860
>the Abrahamic God sometimes is stated to be beatable
>by iron chariots for example
>-3000 +5016
>People still don't get what this means
fucking hell

Here: http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/25064626/

>>49767943
>it's a saga that depicts both the horrors and glories of war, preparing those who read it for fuckery and success alike.
Nobody (as far as I know) claimed it was solely about pro or anti-war sentiments. We discussed what is the pre-dominant message on this particular subject matter in general. Illiad is basically the ultimate encyclopedia of the world of it's time, so of course it's going to have MULTIPLE different levels of meanings, interpretations, messages.

>>49767964
>So while we might not consider Middle Earth "Catholic Fantasy" we do consider Narnia "Christian Fantasy."
we do ?

>>49767930
>>49767973
>TFW we don't get this kind of silly yet awesome shit in fantasy literature anymore
>TFW you will never stop a chosen prophet by throwing spiky iron chariots at them when they only have bronze weapons
Remind me why sword and sandals epic fantasy died agan?

>>49767973
I should probably mention that this thread really starts at the 25077833 post

>>49768002
Because people complain about it being retarded, even when it's not the case

>>49767916
>Odysseus is the real hero here

I guess that's a reading you get out of assuming hte Illiad to be anti-war?

>>49767990
>we do ?
A LOT of people point out the Christian allegories being a vital part of Narnia's story. I never thought it to be the wisest way to understand it: allegory is not the same thing as propaganda or agenda, but yeah, the Aslan IS based on Jesus, quite heavily. Lewis never really even attempted to deny that. In fact he specifically refered to the part of bible where Jesus is described as The Lion of Judea as the line that drew him to write Aslan as a character.

>>49768038
>I guess that's a reading you get out of assuming hte Illiad to be anti-war?
You are an idiot.

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>>49768011
Holy shit I started reading, this is golden
>omnipotent doesn't mean unbeatable
>we were wearing helmets, so god couldn't blind us

>>49767877

In the greater cycle, Achilles refuses to go in the first place until persuaded by his friendship ties with Odysseus. In the Illiad, he withdraws from battle, and only rejoins it from fury at the death of Patrocles. Both happen at the instigation of gods. The whole point is that he does not want to fight or even to go, because he knows he will die. All of the other great heroes do so out of obligation to people, kin, or country, in the face of their own death, not for honor or glory.

To the Greeks war is always tragic, but necessary due to self-defence or obligation.

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>>49766529
>I don't know of very much atheist fantasy fiction

Educate yourself, nigga

>>49768112
That is not true. Achilles is an arrogant asshole and he has absolutely no qualm about joining the war outside of his lack of respect for Agamemnon: in fact he goes into the war precisely because he knows he is going to die. Remember that: Dying a greatest warrior, or living but being forgotten thing? Achilles is vain as fuck, he cares about his pride MORE than about his life.
He withdraws from the battle not because he does not want to fight, but PURELY out of spite after the quarel over Chryseis. Again purely out of pride and arrogance.
Achilles is the LAST person in the fucking Illiad to give two fucks about obligations. He literally tells his king to fuck-off.
Achilles is not the hero of the story, he is a tragic cautionary tale of a man whose pride and arrogance was his downfall.

>>49766786

Check 'The Golden Compass Points In No Direction'.

>>49766863
>Playing a game about atheism would lead into discussions about it, and maybe open some people up so the idea of atheism.
You are delusional, my man. First of all, nobody is going to say "hey, this religious institution has been manipulating people under false pretenses. Is it possible that *my* religious institution is doing the same? Tell me about atheism, anon!" Secondly, most religions are basically designed to make them difficult for believers to question. Religious leaders love to tell people that it is natural to question their faith because they know that they'll return even more sure of it if they enter into it with that attitude. Faith is described as something you have or you don't, and lacking it is a failing; much like intelligence. And who isn't a bit delusional about their intelligence? Religious institutions tell people that it doesn't need to make sense, they just have to believe. That's the Mystery of Faith.

I have many religious friends and have had several conversations about religion (inb4 projectionists accuse me of being a fedora-tipping proselytizer: if I was, I wouldn't have many religious friends, now would I?) but most people will very easily shed any logical argument using one of the defense mechanisms listed above. Same for most emotional arguments. Religion isn't dying out because true believers are being converted to nonbelievers. It is dying out because weaker believers are not forcing their children to be exposed at the level that they were. After a few generations the faith becomes weak enough that people can shrug it off without much crisis. True conversions are very rare.

As a hard agnostic I have similar problems with atheists, whose entire beliefs are predicated on reductionist physicalism, the belief that all things (including thoughts) can be fully described using only physical terms. Which is a theory that is completely unverifiable by nature, you hypocrite.

>>49768312
>atheists, whose entire beliefs are predicated on reductionist physicalism, the belief that all things (including thoughts) can be fully described using only physical terms.

I have no idea how what you just described and not believing in God are in any way intrinsically linked.

But, not the place. You're right about OP's shit.

>>49766584
It doesn't necessarily remove gods. It just means being a 'diety' isn't an actual divine process. It's just powerful beings being dicks.

>>49768211

Let's spell it out, then.

>Achilles is an arrogant asshole
Obviously, this is apparent to any third grade reader, and of course that's why a book about this sulking boy has been one of the crucial texts of Western civilization for the last 2000 years.

>No qualm about joining the war outside of his lack of respect for Agamemnon.
Again, he joins unwillingly when convinced by Odysseus. There is a choice to be made, which is why it is tragic. This is outside the actual Illiad. Also, the Achilles in the underworld scene in Odyssey further underscores the tragic aspect of the Achilles myth.

>He withdraws from the battle not because he does not want to fight.
Again, obviously. Achilles withdraws because of his anger. That's the first fucking line. And why is he angry? Because he's an insufferable asshole, only motivated by pride and arrogance? Try again. Hint, he is now at Troy fighting and thus knows he will die.

>Achilles is the LAST person in the fucking Illiad to give two fucks about obligations.
Do you really again think this is about Achilles being an asshole? He is the greatest Greek fighter of all past and coming time and knows it. He knows it, every single Greek and Trojan knows it. Agamemnon, meanwhile, is the prime example of the bad king, from a dynasty that exemplifies every transgression a Greek could commit. But hey, it's just Achilles being selfish.

Again, the point is, that to Greeks war, and life in general, is tragic. You gain glory by facing it well, exactly for that reason.

>Achilles is not the hero of the story
And now I know I just completely wasted my time here...

>>49768483
I went too far when I said their beliefs are entirely predicated on it. Not sure what exactly I was thinking when I said that. They almost always go together, but you can have an atheist without reductionist physicalism. I can't imagine how somebody can really be a theist in the traditional sense and a reductionist physicalist though.

>>49767773
I'm not OP. But what you suggest would make it atheist, yes. It's not the nature of the god/gods that make it theist, but the separation from the believers. Theism is the unverifiable belief in a god or gods, not the absolute verifiable knowledge that one/they exist.

>>49767964
>So while we might not consider Middle Earth "Catholic Fantasy" we do consider Narnia "Christian Fantasy."
Do we? I've never heard this term used before in my life.

Granted, I'm not involved in any atheist organisations (agnostic if it matters), so maybe it's because my fedora tipping skills are too low to comprehend such wisdom.

>>49767173
Pfft, neither the Greek nor Hindu gods were anything like that. Get educated.

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>>49767427
You called?

SHUT UP THE SHOW'S NOT CANON HE'S ALIVE AND SO IS SHIREEN REEEEEEEEEEEE

>>49767377
Nymeria Martell, but then she existed several thousand years before the actual plot.

>>49768713
But the gods in greek mythology aren't separate from the believers. See all the times they fuck people both figuratively and literally.

OP, I do not support this in any way. What you really out to do is troll your Christian players and make them despise you by presenting them with an atheist's perspective of Christianity. Focus on hell. Make them write backstories, and find any little detail that you can latch onto as a sin. Run a pretty lethal game, and when one of the players dies, follow their perspective as they descend to hell and realize what their future holds. For the absolute most horrifying description of hell, read straight off this link to a chapter from Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce: http://www.online-literature.com/james_joyce/portrait_artist_young_man/3/

Then ctrl+f to this line, without quotes: "The preacher's voice sank."

Make sure you get to the part about eternity, because that's the heaviest bit. If you aren't down to read that far, feel free to skip to it by ctrl+f'ing "Last and crowning torture of all the tortures". No modern Christian is willing to accept that god would do something so ludicrously and disproportionally horrible to somebody just for sinning, but they are still somewhat aware that it is an inextricable part of their belief. It'll hurl them into a full-blown crisis of faith.

Obviously I'm trolling and you'd be a madman to treat your players like that, but if you do go forward with your setting that chapter will surely give you some inspiration for the bad guys. And really, that passage is so heavy and beautifully written that everybody should read it, especially /tg/ people who can work it into their games somehow.

>>49768988
here

Fuck it, I'm posting the best part. Nobody is going to go through that link and I know it.

>Last and crowning torture of all the tortures of that awful place is the eternity of hell. Eternity! O, dread and dire word. Eternity! What mind of man can understand it? And remember, it is an eternity of pain. Even though the pains of hell were not so terrible as they are, yet they would become infinite, as they are destined to last for ever. But while they are everlasting they are at the same time, as you know, intolerably intense, unbearably extensive. To bear even the sting of an insect for all eternity would be a dreadful torment. What must it be, then, to bear the manifold tortures of hell for ever? For ever! For all eternity! Not for a year or for an age but for ever. Try to imagine the awful meaning of this. You have often seen the sand on the seashore. How fine are its tiny grains! And how many of those tiny little grains go to make up the small handful which a child grasps in its play. Now imagine a mountain of that sand, a million miles high, reaching from the earth to the farthest heavens, and a million miles broad, extending to remotest space, and a million miles in thickness; and imagine such an enormous mass of countless particles of sand multiplied as often as there are leaves in the forest, drops of water in the mighty ocean, feathers on birds, scales on fish, hairs on animals, atoms in the vast expanse of the air: and imagine that at the end of every million years a little bird came to that mountain and carried away in its beak a tiny grain of that sand. How many millions upon millions of centuries would pass before that bird had carried away even a square foot of that mountain, how many eons upon eons of ages before it had carried away all?

>Yet at the end of that immense stretch of time not even one instant of eternity could be said to have ended. At the end of all those billions and trillions of years eternity would have scarcely begun. And if that mountain rose again after it had been all carried away, and if the bird came again and carried it all away again grain by grain, and if it so rose and sank as many times as there are stars in the sky, atoms in the air, drops of water in the sea, leaves on the trees, feathers upon birds, scales upon fish, hairs upon animals, at the end of all those innumerable risings and sinkings of that immeasurably vast mountain not one single instant of eternity could be said to have ended; even then, at the end of such a period, after that eon of time the mere thought of which makes our very brain reel dizzily, eternity would scarcely have begun.

>A holy saint (one of our own fathers I believe it was) was once vouchsafed a vision of hell. It seemed to him that he stood in the midst of a great hall, dark and silent save for the ticking of a great clock. The ticking went on unceasingly; and it seemed to this saint that the sound of the ticking was the ceaseless repetition of the words - ever, never; ever, never. Ever to be in hell, never to be in heaven; ever to be shut off from the presence of God, never to enjoy the beatific vision; ever to be eaten with flames, gnawed by vermin, goaded with burning spikes, never to be free from those pains; ever to have the conscience upbraid one, the memory enrage, the mind filled with darkness and despair, never to escape; ever to curse and revile the foul demons who gloat fiendishly over the misery of their dupes, never to behold the shining raiment of the blessed spirits; ever to cry out of the abyss of fire to God for an instant, a single instant, of respite from such awful agony, never to receive, even for an instant, God's pardon; ever to suffer, never to enjoy; ever to be damned, never to be saved; ever, never; ever, never.

>>49766529
His Dark Materials isn't an atheist fantasy setting. God not only demonstrably exists, but actually appears in person at one point in the story.

>>49767360
actually you got that a bit wrong
Chaos was the primordial stuff all the original deities sprung forth from, like Gaia or Nyx or Tartarus
then Gaia hooks up with Tartarus and gives birth to Ouranos, while Erebus is making guys like Thanatos or Hypnos
through Ouranos and Gaia, we get the Titans, like Kronos and Rhea, and finally they give birth to some of the Greek gods we all know and love, Zeus, Hera, Hades, Hestia, etc.

>>49768643
You are basically saying what I said and contradicting what you have been saying just a few posts above, so who is wasting whose time here?

Achilles does not join Agamemnon unwililngly. That is a lie. He joins after he learns that joining the war will ensure his name to be immortal. Which is something Odysseus reminds him off, but the decision is willing, conscious, and driven by clear motivation: for his name to become immortal.

>And why is he angry?
Because his moronic king demands him to give up his favorite sex toy, you fucking idiot. LITERALLY the full extent of the reasons why he is angry. It's because Agamemnon wants him to give him Briseis, Achilles war prize, in order to release Chryseis, whose imprisonment angered Apollo.
Yes, Agamemnon is an asshole. Achilles is "just" stubborn and disobedient. It has nothing to do with the fact that he knows he is going to die, it has a lot to do with his pride and honor being more important than the order of HIS OWN KING.

>Do you really again think this is about Achilles being an asshole?
Well, yes. It all boils down to Achilles pride, his unwillingness to bow down to Agamemnon despite him legally being his king. Again, Agamemnon is equally as bad character, both are examples of how human vices inevitably lead towards disaster. But Agamemnon being an ass does not suddenly make Achilles noble. Let me remind you: Achilles is a person who quite literally faces a choice between his life and his ego, and chooses the latter.

>Again, the point is, that to Greeks war, and life in general, is tragic.
>And now I know I just completely wasted my time here...
The point is a bit more complicated than that. Because against tragic and deeply cautionary tales of characters such as Agamemnon, Achilles or Paris, there is one character who completely stands out and plays an entirely different role in the narrative. You can guess who.

>>49769043
>>49769062
>mfw a "just" god does this to you if work on a sunday

>>49766584
aaand here we go

>>49769240
>Yes, a just God! Men, reasoning always as men, are astonished that God should mete out an everlasting and infinite punishment in the fires of hell for a single grievous sin. They reason thus because, blinded by the gross illusion of the flesh and the darkness of human understanding, they are unable to comprehend the hideous malice of mortal sin. They reason thus because they are unable to comprehend that even venial sin is of such a foul and hideous nature that even if the omnipotent Creator could end all the evil and misery in the world, the wars, the diseases, the robberies, the crimes, the deaths, the murders, on condition that he allowed a single venial sin to pass unpunished, a single venial sin, a lie, an angry look, a moment of wilful sloth, He, the great omnipotent God could not do so because sin, be it in thought or deed, is a transgression of His law and God would not be God if He did not punish the transgressor.

I'm not buying it either. And neither did Joyce or the main character, after some time. The passage is kind of setting the stage for his eventual rejection of Christianity (though, as always with Joyce, it isn't quite so simple).

>>49769081
>God not only demonstrably exists, but actually appears in person at one point in the story.
Re-read the last book. That wasn't him.

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ITT: OP getting his ass handed to him a dozen times over, and a dozen times again. Excellent potential for pasta though.

>>49767298
>And maybe it's just me, but the idea of playing a Tsarist/Soviet secret police inquisition rooting out and persecuting your ideological enemies seems more like you're actually playing the evil villain side?
People play Dark Heresy like that all the time and they enjoy it. But yeah, it takes a special kind group to enjoy playing religion gestapo.

There absolutely no problem with having an atheist setting in a sense of "there are no gods". I mean you can take gods out of dnd and it won't change you average setting *that* much.

You can even have atheist fantasy if you consider atheism to mean lack of belief in supernatural. You could kinda call something like Numenera with all the magic stuff being sufficiently advanced technology an atheist fantasy.

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>>49766529
So... Let me get this straight. You want to make the players be the enforcers for one consistent, officially recognized set of beliefs and make it their job to go out and make sure that everyone else holds those beliefs as well?

Man. There's a lot of subtext here...
>Pic related

And don't give me that "muh discussion" or "muh dialogue" bullshit. You and I both know perfectly well that when someone uses those terms, they mean "a discussion which must inevitably reach the same conclusion that I have reached."

>>49769909
Yes, but it's Warhammer 40,000. It's baked into the cake that it's a shitty place to live in part due to the ever present thought police. They aren't celebrated.

>>49770147
Well, OP is making up his own setting. If it floats his and his group's boat he can make a setting where running around weeding out religion is an only logical choice. I mean people don't bitch about Dark Heresy and its Catholic Space Nazis much so OP's magic gestapo faggotry shouldn't offend anyone either.

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>>49768856
>Kills his brother because muh right to throne and autism
>Won't ally with anyone because his previously mentioned autism doesn't allow accept anything but complete surrender
>Consorts with dark sorcerecess/infidel missionary, swallows up the whole "your teh savior"-shtick
>Renounces the only even mildly benevolent and functioning gods/religion in setting
>Doesn't even bother to check on the attack on kings landing, gets almost his whole army wiped out and loses all support to throne
>And only reason he's still in "game" is because he has sold off to some city-state banksters.

I know you are propably just memeposting, but goddamnit does the "le stannis teh mannis" rustle my jimmies.

>>49770012
This

>>49766529
oh boy, here we go again...

>>49767860
For what it's worth, having a substantial number of iron chariots was the equivalent of having several aircraft carriers.

If you had them, you were a great power, and only the great powers could afford them.

>>49768919
In mythology yes. That's what I said.
In real life no, since they didn't exist.

>>49771891
To explain, what I mean is, the people of ancient Greece believed in them and that was theist, but in-setting in the mythology it's atheist since they are real inside the setting.

>>49769327
What?

>>49767691
I read it last time as a kid. Remember liking it a lot, but even then I noticed that it's a bit heavy handed and inconsistent at times.

>>49769162
You are blowing hot air out your ass.

>Achilles does not join Agamemnon unwillingly.
No. He makes a choice. He does not at first, as I said, want to go, and then does, because choices. He is, again, convinced by Odysseus, after, as I said, not wanting to go. This isn't hard. His dear mom wants him to live to a grand old age and have a family. Family is an obligation. And his dear friend, who doesn't want to go to war in the first place, doesn't want to go alone. Friendship is an obligation. So. Achilles has a choice. Life or glory. Family or friendship. Either way he loses something, no matter what he chooses he doesn't win, he loses. That is why it is a tragedy, and that is why he acts the way he does. This is key to the rest of the story, and it is fundamental to understanding it. Which is why I am poking fun at you in a friendly, acerbic manner. Because everyone wants to live, and everyone wants the respect of their fellow men. If you are worth anything, you get to make choices that matter. And to the Greeks, these are always doomed. It is in everything you read. If you read it.

>And why is he angry?
Do you really pretend to know anything about ancient Greece, and still claim it has to do with a "sex toy"? What is the Greek attitude to women? Agamemnon, who is on all accounts an unworthy king, deliberately humiliates Achilles, when everyone knows that it is prophesied that Achilles will die in the war.

>both are examples of how human vices...
As I was hinting, Achilles is not an example of human folly. Why do you think Alexander saw Achilles as his role-model? Because he was a flawed literary model, set up as a warning?

Tragedy is not cautionary. The tragic hero is the hero. Read it again, read some more background. You will get to it.

>>49773661
So, first of all you cretin, Illiad is not a tragedy. It's a epic. The very concept of "tragedy" will only be introduced another five hundred years before Illiad is composed, and it's define by the notion that fate is inevitable, REGADLESS of human decision. Which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you described. Achilles is not bound by fate do die at Troy. He has a choice. That determines his fate. He choses: that determines whenever lives or dies. A character from an ACTUAL tragedy, Laius, ends up killed by his son despite the fact that he makes every decision to prevent that. Nothing that Oedipus himself does matters: his fate is inevitable. That is the fundamental nature of a tragic story: there is no choice, no option, no way to avoid fate. Tragedies are about inevitability. Achilles story is about making your own fate, making your own decision. That is actually the key here: that is why I originally pointed out that Achilles is not joining the war UNWILLING. He does it deliberately, from his own choice, BOTH the possible outcomes of the choice.

So your ENTIRE interpretation of Illiad is complete bullshit. You literally do not understand the genre that you claim is the key to interpretation of the story.

Second of all, the section you are describing about Odysseus convincing Achilles to go to war with him is NOT ACTUALLY PART OF ILIAD. At all. In fact the whole part about prohecy is only briefly mentioned, book 9, when an enraged Achilles says that he no longer gives a fuck, mentioning the prophecy, mentioning that he once wished for glorious death, but that Agamemnon is not worth the hassle. At that point he actually solemly believes that he can move away from the war and live on. It's Phoenix, not Odysseus, who reminds him of the glory of war fame though, though story of Meleager convincing him to stay after all. I'm starting to suspect you did not read the thing at all, just watched the movie or something.

>>49772711
In the last book "god" appeared, but is revealed to just be the first angel that pretend to have created everything when other angels appeared.
That being said, you could argue that the Dust is some sort of deistic entity.

>>49766529
So by based on the tenets of atheism you mean advocating for atheism as a belief system?
Social agendas are toxic to worldbuilding. Social insights, maybe. Social agendas, no.

>>49767990
>we do ?
>>49768765
>Do we? I've never heard this term used before in my life

Oh yeah. Narnia is full-on Magical Lion Jesus, complete with phrases like "Sons of Adam" and "Daughters of Eve" being used for Humans.

It's heavily Christian, and unashamedly so.

As for the Christian Fantasy being an actual genre, I've seen some bookstores that put The Chronicles of Narnia in the Religious Fiction section (that name literally drips with unappreciated irony) next to books like The Shack, and others that place it in the standard Sci-Fi and Fantasy section.

>>49766529
>tenets of atheism
Atheism doesn't have much in the way of a consistent set of tenets. Even enlightenment humanism isn't necessary. There are faiths that don't rest too heavily on gods, and what records we have of atheists before the enlightenment still have odd mystic beliefs (from our perspective). Stuff about the soul being blood, vague beliefs in reincarnation, atmosphere thick with ghosts in excruciating pain outside the protection of their bodies. Wild shit.

>state stamping out mystics
Eh. Why?
>debunking charlatans
More appealing, if only because mysteries are fun.
>massive church conspiracy because faith springs fully from belief in literal magic
Full retard.

Consider a tripartite system, with orthodoxy vs lay-heresy vs enlightenment types. Don't systematize the supernatural elements or explain their origins too carefully. People don't know that shit and them projecting their beliefs onto it is what makes these scenarios interesting. It's not a deliberate lie, just a flimsy "god of the gaps," and in anything that can safely be called fantasy there should be a lot of room in those gaps. Then build charlatanry and corrupt institutions seeking power (for fucks sake separately; churches are doing bad enough shit when they stamp out dissent) on top of that. Also the church doesn't have to release the monsters when it can simply claim falsely to know more than anyone does. Or offer protection from the darkness that they are powerless to actually provide.

>>49768312
>Which is a theory that is completely unverifiable by nature, you hypocrite.

...you do realise that Penrose is full of shit right?

>>49774249
>The very concept of "tragedy" will only be introduced another five hundred years before Illiad is composed
Yeah, I'll just leave that there, with the random name calling, ignorant cunt. And FYI, since you, obviously are an illiterate dimwit, Homer is written down, and fixed, not at the mythological time when Troy is set, but Immediately before the first tragedies of Athens. Because they were sponsored by the last tyrant, of Athens.

Before the democracy made tragedy a fixed part of the public, official, ceremonial, state, religious, plays of... Athens. My dear, fucking. incompetent, friend, in love of the ancients. Before they were all at Alexandria, where the last fucking copy, of something that you and I love, was burnt. Brother. Why do you hate me? Why do you talk down to me? I am arrogant, I am right. If you beat me in the game, I am true.

>it's define by the notion that fate is inevitable
Yeah, really? No. As I said in my very first post, it's defined by the fact that is is RAILROADED, by the gods, by providence, in spite of the fucking choices you make, (I really don't know how to put this to make it clearer), even if you are the all-time Greek Golden Boy. Because, LIFE/the fucking GODS/the FUCKING ECONOMY/Fucking GYGAX wants you up the ass. WHEN YOU ARE THE CHOSEN ONE. THE DM's BEST BRO (Totally not homo, pal, why are you looking at me weird there), it's just the setting, ok.

(But you and I, are two people, εσείς)

>Achilles is not bound by fate do die at Troy. He has a choice. He can life, of he can die and live forever. Have you ever stood across anyone saying "Your wallet or your life"?

Noone will ever care about, notice you, remember you, and you still think "Achilles is just an asshole". You are my b

Well, yes
>>49768211 Remember that: Dying a greatest warrior, or living but being forgotten thing?

>>49776013
>You are my b
You are my brother, because noone else, let me tell you, gives fuck all.

You are factually, fundamentally. wrong, which is ok. Because you care. I will never give in. But you argue somethine that noone outside 500 poeple in the last 2000 years argue about. And you are wrong, but you care. You, somehow, actually, seem to care.

>>49776106
There aren't that few Classics majors.

>>49776013
>>49776106
OMG just fuck already why dontcha

>>49766529
I'm an atheist but jesus fuck that is the most fedora shit I've read in months.

Even ignoring the three big elephants in the room - the "religion is a deliberate lie created to control people" one, the "fantastical impossible beings and actual literal magic exist in this setting but religion and mysticism are ridiculous lies and the world works exactly the same as ours" one, and the possibly even bigger "players are atheist inquisitors who root out and exterminate opposing beliefs wherever they find them (but are totally the good guys)" one -- Ideological Fantasy is shit garbage. A setting that clearly exists to push some agenda, or to push the maker's beliefs, will basically inevitably be shit.

Tolkien was a devout catholic, yet you'd have to look really really really hard to find what little christian symbolism there is in Lord of the Rings. Now, allegories can work - look at Narnia - but they are very difficult to pull off successfully, and require an amount of subtlety, tact, and depth that I'm just frankly not seeing much sign of here.

>>49770572
>swallows up the whole "your teh savior"-shtick
Showfag, please. Stannis doesn't believe in gods or prophecies, its a useful fiction.

>>49776401

That and Allegories tend to work best if you don't have 'Everyone but my philosophy is an idiot/a bad person' as the basic premise. That tends to get people hostile against them.

Narnia had a lot of good characters who didn't believe in Aslan's existence until they personally saw him. They were still good people doing good things. Heck, even The Last Battle which is the weakest of the books (IMO) had an entire subplot about how Tash worshippers could be good people too, even if they actively opposed Aslan.

>>49766598
I guess that explains why there has been absolutely no scientific discoveries by religious people then

>>49776937
exactly

>>49776401
>"religion is a deliberate lie created to control people"

prove that isnt

>>49766529
Atheisim:
Disbelief or lack of belief in God or Gods.
That's one tenet, anon. Where are the others?

>>49766555
>A book that explains how the universe was created, who created it, and why, as well as where you go when you die and what the meaning of life is.
>Disbelief in said book takes the mystery out of everything
???????

>>49779445
time spent talking about not believing in something is time that can be spent on anything else.

>Homeric question
>on MY /tg/ ?????

but really to say a definitive 'fixed' date for Homer is silly. I'd hope anyone familiar with Parry and Lord's work would recognize that, and from there that there are several proposed dates for the creation of our modern text's original exemplar.

>>49767964
>So while we might not consider Middle Earth "Catholic Fantasy" we do consider Narnia "Christian Fantasy."
Yeah, and Tolkien's stories are great while Lewis' sucks.

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>>49766529
I better be able to play a necromancer, with all these spooks you've put in this setting.

>>49769043
>Nobody is going to go through that link and I know it.

Hey, I did.

I've never bothered reading Joyce, because every account of his work I've ever encountered made it sound immensely dull, but that description of hell was neat.

>>49767091
The Lord of the Rings is incredibly Catholic. What are you smoking?

>>49766529
>tenets of atheism
Failed already senpai, you're already treating atheism like it's a religion. Boring.

>>49767091
>Do you remember how a Song of Ice and Fire (the books, at least) and Lord of the Rings don't contain a shred of their authors' overall political or religious beliefs
This is all wrong. Tolkien's world is very Christian, though it doesn't show much in LotR but is very apparent in Silmarillion and his notes. And GRRM has a very strong anti-war, pro-feminism message in all of his books, though I suppose that might not be entirely obvious to someone who hasn't read his older sci-fi stories and can see the recycled plot points.

>>49767492
Jon Snow, Danaerys, and Tyrion? Stabbed, fuck-up, and exile?

>>49769909
Except in Dark Heresy the cultists are typically sacrificing people to their actual for-real gods so said actual for-real gods can bring a billion trillion years of murder-torture.

In OP's proposed game they're just a bunch of weirdos trying to dupe folks into wearing weird clothes and giving the cult a bunch of money.

>>49767650
I... what?

>>49768211
You and others need to remember that to the Greeks kleos (glory) was the only way to immortality. At the time (and somewhat still today) cultures around the balkans held their honour externally - it didn't matter what you did privately, the important thing was what other people saw you doing.

Achilles was such a great hero because he pursued glory and immortality despite knowing that he would have to die to do so. Bad things happen when he chooses to reject this destiny by leaving the battlefield.

And for those discussing it above, the second greatest hero of the Iliad is Hektor, who does his own duty, despite knowing that he too will die if he faces Achilles.

There need to be angry hicks with ancient laser rifles who fight for Jeezus

>>49771926
That's... not how this works.

>>49767173
That's one of my very favorite science fiction books!

>>49767313
I want to hug early medieval monks

>>49767916
But Hector was the realest

>>49780871
Why not?

Look, of course actual ancient Greece was theist, since they believed in gods. But that's just it, they believed, they never knew because the gods never actually showed up.

In the mythology, they show up, thereby invalidating belief in favor of knowledge. The setting is no longer theist.