>The antagonist is a jedi >The players are not sith or

>>49756721

>>the antagonist is a self-righteous dick
>>I'm a jedi, so I must be right about everything

Entirely possible.

>Overall lore
Yes. Jedi promote emotional detachment, and this can lead to some bad situations like sacrificng innocents for the legitimately greater good, or supporting a fairly oppressive government because a violent hate- and anger-fueled rebellion (or resulting government that forms after the dust settles) would be worse in the eyes of a council.
>Film canon/Lucas lore
No. Jedi are all LG. If you oppose one, you're a Bad Guy.

>>49756721
Yes, but the Jedi would have to be super super hardline. Pretty much evil in his own way. Not necessarily Dark Side, but a baddie.

See the Bounty Hunter storyline in SW:tOR. The main antagonist of the third act is a Jedi Master that's gone completely overboard trying to hunt you down and bring you to justice. He's arguably in the right, given you being a contract killer and all, but he also kills everyone who gets in his way without any sort of due process. His belief is that anyone who defends a criminal is a criminal, and should be dealt with in kind.

>>49756721
Yes?
However, the jedi would not be a long term, or violent, adversary unless the pcs were dicks, honestly. Jedi tend towards diplomacy first, and the pcs would need to ignore peaceful entreaties.

>>49756721
You just need to change your point of view.

>>49756721
There are two ways I can see this happening.
1) Jedi only thinks he's a jedi, he's actually just a self-righteous dick with a lightsaber.
2) Jedi is an antagonist, but not a villain. He's a deeply noble, good person, and you oppose each other only due to unfortunate circumstances.

>>49756721
The Mandalorians weren't particularly EVIL evil, but they were threatening galactic peace.

>>49756721
Sounds like a chaotic good type of character that went too far.

We stopped playing plebian games that have alignment but maybe you could start there.

Jedi group dedicated to dealing with a situation that gets interperated as killing the protagonists or someone they care about.
"Counsil tasked me with handling the crime problem in this area, you are part of this problem."

Tasked with protecting an area at all costs, a hundred years later you encounter her Padawan, now stronger than most masters. You need that macguffin hidden in her sanctuary, but she's not going to let you in or listen to your lies.

War breaks out. Your protags pick a side and when they've mostly got the war won, the Jedi finally decide to get involved, on the enemy team.

Jedi is a crazy old senile fool. Like Yoda but worse, and starts hallucinating. He doesn't use the Force so much anymore, retired as he is, but 600 years of combat training make him dangerous enough for a single session opponent.

Introduce a society traditionally ruled by Force Sensitives. One gets trained as a Jedi, returns home, and everyone is so impressed that the people stop listening to the other ruling body.
He's not evil or even violent, he's just arrogant and a really bad king.

They all need a lot of work, and I have no idea if any have potential, but here are some ideas.

>>49756811
Well, Jedi do tend to take the high ground.

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You could have the group get framed for something.

When you say "The antagonist is a jedi" do you mean they have to be a find upstanding lawful good Jedi or can they slip a bit?

The entire plot of the original Knights of the Old Republic comic (which was amazing) was a group of Jedi Knights having a vision that one of their paladins would turn to the dark side and threaten the galaxy. To stop this they actually kill their padawans with one, the main character Zayne, getting away.

So here you see a group of Jedi committing an evil act in an attempt to save the galaxy. The plot is basically Zayne going on the run and trying to confront them and attempt to clear his name as an innocent man.

There was also the time the Jedi got tricked into hunting down Jango's commandos instead of the Deathwatch.

So probably the Jedi getting tricked into hunting down the group or doing it on purpose for either a just or unjust reason is your best bet.

>Be planetary security officers
>Planetary government and senators decide to side with CIS at the outbreak of the Clone Wars
>The Republic comes to your planet and occupies it
>Former security force become resistance movement
>It's relatively successful
>A Jedi is sent to stop you

There you go.

>>49756721

The Jedi Council from KotoR II is a good starting point OP.

>>49756861
Its worth noting that pretty much every Jedi that went off to right them ended up turning to the dark side.

>>49757379
I think pretty much every Jedi who fought that war got PTSD

Fuckin brutal

>>49756721
>Your group stole a Jedi artifact of high importance from Jedi ruins
>Jedi assume you're evil shit and, like Jedi, hunt you blindly and efficiently
You assume Jedi are good, they aren't, they're Lawful Neutral

>Be soldier of a far away Republic siding system
>Attacked by CIS
>Ignored by the Republic
>After conquered by CIS put to forced conscription to be soldier for the CIS
>Now that we're in CIS side now Republic decides to intervene
>Jedi leads campaign
>They strike fast and hard
>Now I'm a fugitive who hates republic and jedi
My last character to be honest

>>49756721
Yup, watch the Umbara Arc from The Clone Wars series for a good example. Even if Krell did end up being a traitor.

>>49756861
The Mandalorians aren't really capital E Evil, but they're still violent assholes. The Mandalorian wars was them just declaring war on everyone for cultural reasons. They didn't torture children, but they still put innocent lives in danger just because they wanted to. That's pretty evil of them.

>>49756721
Grevious' old backstory.

>>49756770
I like the idea of a hyper altruistic dickface antagonist that purges everything he doesnt find worthy in his own judgement hunting the party because they dont do the same good that he does

>>49756721
Jedi are supposed to be unselfish, and sith let their pride and ambitions rule them. Selfishness and pride are usually the catalysts for conflict, so like it or not, it's typically just not going to happen in a compelling way.

>>49757401
I mean the Protag of Kotor 2 was so fucking PTSD's from the war that they cut themself off from the force and became something of a horrifying force black hole

Kinda like darth nihilius

>>49756721
Yeah, I can think of a half-dozen off the top of my head:

>Players are out for revenge for the (not necessarily unjust) deaths of friends or family, think Boba Fett

>Players are fanatics of some stripe. Secessionists, or some sort anti-Jedi (or Sith and Jedi) group, or even something like aggressive Communist revolutionaries. Anyone who is willing to do something for "the greater good" really.

>The Jedi is being a disproportionate asshole about punishing what the players think of as a minor crime, or even an accident.

>The Jedi is being manipulated and refuses to listen when the players point this out.

>The party is all droids, fighting for the noble cause of freeing their brothers from organic oppression.

>One party member actually is evil, the rest are dupes.

>>49757231
Does someone has this cap ? My soul misses the power of the higher ground

>>49757630
That fight was so disappointing but lorewise it's exactly what was supposed to happen

When I think of asshole jedi I think if that Jedi Master you meet in KotOR2 on the first real planet.

You can create a Jedi so convinced they're doing the Good thing that they're blind to what they're really doing.

>>49756721
>>49756777
It's true that the Jedi's ideal is to be a perfectly stoic, emotionless non-entity who follows orders unquestioningly. Every single one of them happily fought a pointless sham of a war for no reason other than to preserve the status quo. Jedi will do most things if a legitimate authority figure tells them to. Also, any Jedi will inevitably fall short of the ideal of perfect stiocism, and this can lead to bad behavior that goes above and beyond the just-following-orders kind.

The most obvious example is the one from the prequels - the Jedi struggling against their vows of celibacy. Jedi are picked when they're babies, so none of them made an informed choice to be celibate. The vast majority of them are not asexual and unsuited for a celibate life. It's probably very common for Jedi to have secret love lives, which they may use underhanded means to cover up. And a lot of them are probably way better at hiding that shit than Anakin was.

>>49757532
I was going to say this.

Grevious used to be a rebel from a planet of oppresive different aliens. The rulers of the planet asked for help and a bunch of jedi slaughtered the other race without really thinking to hard on the subject.

There is a reason the Republic fell so easily, the jedi may be "Defenders of good and justice" but they are, ultimately, failures at it.

>>49756721
The players are just a bunch of CIS-sponsored colonists who trade battle droid production for vital supplies, the jedi and his clone army have come to put a stop to it but he doesn't understand (or doesn't care) that this will kill the colonists.

>>49757761
All the fucking examples in kotor ii, and you choose the one who literally becomes a sith?

But in response to op: the greater kotor franchise- two games, a comic series, one titanic- is cholk full of examples of antagonistic jedi, even for full on light side folks

Posters who are mentioning that the Jedi lean far more on the lawful side of things than anything else are absolutely correct.

Y'know, even the basic story of the prequels works.

>a group of Outer Rim planets, resenting the Inner Core's economic centrality and their lack of influence on Republic adminstration, located so far from Coruscant, plan to secede, but they know the Republic won't let them go quietly. On Coruscant, beneath the glittering towers is abject poverty, which the local government and even the Jedi at the Temple largely turn a blind eye to--and this has bred anti-government sentiment in the very center of the Republic. The separatists hatch a plan with these local elements to pull off the biggest possible coup--holding an assembly of the Senate hostage.

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Jedi in the EU are basically a combination of Monk/Knight/Space Cop a monastic order that are now dedicated to maintaining galactic peace
If you're going against the Republic you can use the Jedi as antagonists

>>49757785
It'd be kind of interesting if a Jedi master had a secret lover who had a kid, who's force sensitive, and the master pulled strings to tutor his own kid.

>>49758089
That's basically what Bastilla does in TOR

>>49758089
Like that alternate prequel fic where little orphan Ani confides in Obiwan and Sheev gets caught?

Jedi just kidnapped your nephew and killed your sister and brother-in-law for not sending their force-sensitive son to get brainwashed by the Jedi.
Your mission - round up a posse and kill the bastard before he gets off-world with your nephew.

>>49758089
>>49757785
Lucas says Jedi can fuck all they want

> the antagonist is Anakin
> the players are younglings

>>49756721

It certainly is possible.

Stealing image for my next player character.

I kind of like the idea of there being several jedi temples out there, with each a slightly different school and techniques. But i guess fleshing that out in movie canon isn't easy.

>be farmer on Ruusan
>Jedi show up and steal your kid
>give him a lightsaber and send him straight into battle with some Sith
>later all the Jedi and Sith get caught in some kind of blast wave, crumble to dust
>swear oath of vengeance against Force users

And there you go.

>>49757494
It was just your standard conquest. Had the mandalorians been successful you wouldn't have had the jedi civil war or the Sith Empire.

>>49757466
>>Now that we're in CIS side now Republic decides to intervene
>>Jedi leads campaign
>>They strike fast and hard
>>Now I'm a fugitive who hates republic and jedi
If you're conscripted against your will wouldn't you just sort of, immediately give up? Especially since you're probably just being used for slave labor mining whatever it is the CIS wants/making sure the droid factories don't malfunction and kill you dead?

Honestly, the Jedi are total dickweeds. They have to insert themselves into the middle of everything, if a few of them go over to the dark side it's a galaxy-wide crisis, and they're so bloody emotionally schizophrenic.

>>49759457
It wasn't though. Mandalorians aren't a nation or ethnicity. They were fighting because they just decided to start fighting people. It wasn't about resources or territory. It was just about war for the sake of war.

>>49756721
The jedi are literally a class of moralizing meddlers with magical powers who're widely considered to be above the law.

They're begging to the used as villains.

>>49756721
With a party of bounty hunters or smugglers it can be more then possible.

I actually like the idea of a bunch of relic hunters that found or stole an important Jedi relic and are now hunted by an over zealous (maybe will turn dark side) Jedi.

>>49759716
They're outer-space Americans. They have a culture, nation, but not technically ethnicity. most of them come from the same 'race'- it's just not a requirement to be a member.

>>49757614
Not all conflict is a bad thing, and there are worse things than war. Some of the greatest atrocities in history were committed to preserve order.
>>49756721

Star Wars Les Mis'
Your Jedi is Javert

>>49759801
That's wrong though aruetii. Mandalorians have sometimes had a nation, sometimes not. More importantly their actual "race" is extinct by the time of the Old Republic. They're a culture, that's it. The Mandalorians Wars were them trying to bring about their own apocalypse.

>>49756721
Just gotta be at odds. Sometimes both sides are right, or both sides are wrong, and neither side can afford to back down - or at least those fighting for it probably cannot.

>>49757315
Came here to say this. The Kotor comic was downright amazing, in part because it completely turned around the Star Wars story formula. The villains were a council of jedi masters, the mc was a fucking walking disaster and his master pretty much literally says "we trained him wrong as a joke" (completely opposite to Luke, Anakin or Obi Wan's "amazing prodigy" shtick).

I recommend it to anyone who likes Star War EU stuff. Zayne ended up being my favorite mc of any SW story.

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>>49756721
It is if the characters have the faith and general disposition of Han Solo. Han isn't evil, but he's incredibly selfish. An entire party of space scallywags could easily be selfish enough to garner the animosity of a Jedi, but not evil.

Like, imagine an exasperated Prequel-Trilogy Obi-Wan following around a bunch of Han Solo-types. The Jedi knows they're not necessarily evil assholes, but their selfish dickishness is causing problems on a larger scale.

And every time they both meet up, it's a case of "Not these assholes again/Not this asshole again".

The players recognize they're a pretty chill Jedi, but still going to uphold galactic law and bust their asses for whatever bullshit they're running. By the same token the Jedi recognizes that these guys aren't really evil or overtly harmful, but they can do better.

The Jedi would basically treat them like a disappointed teacher. "I know you can do better than this," "I'm very disappointed in you," etc etc.

>>49759895
You got that anywhere?

>>49760002
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Knights-Of-The-Old-Republic

In fact, I think I'm gonna read through it again myself.

>>49757173
>plebian

>>49760044
thanks indeed

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>>49756721
>In my point of view the Jedi are evil!

I'm sorry, I just had to...

Guardians of the Galaxy VS. Jedi Order?

>>49757611
>that purges everything he doesnt find worthy in his own judgement
But that is not what altruistic means.

>>49756721

Joshua Graham archtype. Helping a missionary form an army of jedi aligned zealots to purge sith sympathizers and assimilate nearby planets and destroying their culture. You are caught right in the middle of one of their hunt for Sith followers


This is made worse by the fact that the sith teachings are the only way your planet survives without descending to civil war.

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>>49759895
Yeah, Zayne was great. Especially how he eventually learnt to use the huge swings in luck the force was giving him to his advantage.

He's pretty much one of my favorite fictional characters of all time because he goes far out of his way to save people, even if they've got nothing to do with him. He's more of a Jedi than any of those masters.

>>49759904
Yes.

>>49756721
Hello, Chris.
Still upset you can't write KotOR III?
Don't worry. I am too.

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>>49757676
Here you go anon

>>49756721
>Jedi lost his master on a CIS aligned planet.
>Went back years later, lost his Padawan.
>Has decided he will arm the insurgents on that world to bring about new leadership.
>Is a dick to the troopers under his command because they've failed him before and he expects them to fail him again.

Party are scoundrels and mercenaries from the world or trapped on it, and while they may not agree with the worldly politics, a Jedi who is arming terrorists and clouded by grief isn't going to let anyone off world he doesn't personally vet.

Hell, could skip all that and just have a Clone in the party. His target survived Order 66 and while the Clone might feel bad about betraying his old superior, the Jedi has bad blood like nobody's business and he's going to scourge and purge any and all traitors he sees; including the rest of the party.

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>>49762903

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>>49762916

>>49762785
Shit, accidental post.

>>49761692
>>49759904
I love both of these things.

Jedi being totally Lawful Neutral leaning to Lawful Good, anyone marginally chaotic will get under their skin in a big way.

>>49757683
It was more than made up for by the rest of the triumvirate fights, where you literally talked sion into letting himself die and fought Traya's hillarious style of CONTROLLING 3 LIGHTSABERS WITH THE FORCE

>>49758069
I want to show the Jedi on the right the power of the Dark Side! The Dark Side!

>The antagonist is a jedi
>The players are not sith or evil

The easy answer is that the antagonist is a Dark Jedi.

The players could be good but on the wrong side of the law, and could have done something to put themselves on to put themselves in the Jedi's crosshairs: perhaps they stole an artifact from ruins not realizing it was a Jedi holocron.

It also could be a case of mistaken identity or a misunderstanding.

>>49759550
When have the jedi ever given a shit about the extenuating personal circumstances of the guards/henchmen of their targets?

Oh right, never.

They just cut your arms/head off and keep moving, not pausing for a millisecond to LET you surrender.

>>49761692
>This is made worse by the fact that the sith teachings are the only way your planet survives without descending to civil war.
Isn't that the exact opposite of the Sith teachings?

>>49765354
PROTIP: if you don't want to have your arms chopped off, drop your weapon and run. Jedi don't chase you down, they only cut you up if you get in their way.

You shoot at a Jedi, or point weapons in his direction? No-one's going to give a shit about your personal circumstance, you're pointing a weapon at a symbol of peace and justice.

Is there a good star wars rpg?

I have this star wars urge but I've never played anything outside of 5e.

Kinda concerned about trying to play a star wars rpg, feel like half the PCs out there would either be Han Solo or darth maul

>>49765792
How do you feel about game-specific dice?

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>>49765792
There's three or four. If you're looking for gritty Star Wars, I recommend Fantasy's Flight books: Edge of the Empire.
Have a look in the star wars general:
>>49751767

>>49765832
You mean like dice with faces that are like a lightsaber or something?

Dont really have an opinion, but what exactly is the point of that sort of thing

>>49765849
They give you results that aren't just numbers. They also function as a way of nickel-and-dime-ing the players.

The FFG systems >>49765839 is suggesting operate almost entirely on them (there's a conversion chart, but it's a total clusterfuck).

The other two major systems are Saga Edition (either everyone is force-using or nobody is), and WEG's d6 system (what even is the point of light repeaters?).

>>49756721
Jedi seem to be recruited from seasoned air force personnel, they're all big on collateral damage.

>>49765893
Huh. Alright, thanks.

Guess I'll ask my group if they wanna play a star wars game in the first place

>>49759801
>They're outer-space Americans. They have a culture, nation, but not technically ethnicity.

Their technical ethnicity is "white", though they call it "Caucasian" these days. Non-whites generally aren't considered Americans and the whites have taken steps to limit their participation in politics and other fields of society for over 300 years now.

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>>49756721
Affirmative, meatbag. First, weapon selection is critical...

I really liked this one comic about a BH bitch infiltrating the Jedi Temple and stealing a Force Sensitive baby.
Windu intercepts her, they fight, he beats her and then she reveals she was actually hired by the child's parents because they want their baby back.
It even has a nice scene of Windu almost sending a message to his own parents before changing his mind at the last second and deleting it.

>>49766009
>Non-whites generally aren't considered Americans and the whites have taken steps to limit their participation in politics and other fields of society for over 300 years now.
Do you actually 100% believe that?

>>49766125
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_segregation_in_the_United_States

They even had a civil war because half of the nation didn't want Africans to be spread to the new States.

>>49766174
>They even had a civil war because half of the nation didn't want Africans to be spread to the new States.
That's not even a remotely accurate description of the Civil War.

Neither one of those proves a current, non-consideration of non-whites as Americans or ongoing attempts to marginalize their participation in politics not that I don't doubt that it does occur, but it's by no means universal or even particularly common

>>49758089
I bet that kind of thing happens all the time. Consider the following: Force sensitivity is genetic and very rare, but after at least 1,000 years of not allowing Jedi to reproduce, there are still Jedi. The somplest explanation is that the rules are not enforced very well.

>>49766217
An even simpler explanation is that Sith and other non-Jedi Force-users sometimes have children too.

>>49759904
>And every time they both meet up, it's a case of "Not these assholes again/Not this asshole again".
Sums up my last Dark Heresy game with a rival Inquisitor who kept showing up because our GM's a faggot and we can't have nice things.

>>49758552
Then he shouldn't have made three movies where a central plot point is that Jedi can't fuck all they want.

>>49766212
>That's not even a remotely accurate description of the Civil War.

Yes, let's ignore the Free Soil-issue and turn a blind eye to the fact that the expansion of slavery into the new territories would've brought about a massive influx of black colonists to those regions. That certainly would pass without a hitch in a nation, where whole blocks would team up to firebomb and drive-by shoot black tenant's residences in their quarter.

>>49766251
Or that it appears aberrantly, like albinism

>>49766420
Not even close. The problem wasn't Padme an Anakin fucking, it was their relationship. Jedi can have all the one night stand pump and dumps they want, they just can't have relationships, because that's attachment, which can compromise their judgement, just like it did for Anakin.

>>49765773
>>49765354
Rewatch EotS. Some unarmed, defenseless bridge crew droids try to flee/surrender and Obi-wan just kills them.

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>>49766487

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>>49759457
>>49759843

Ner vode

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>>49766720
Oya, vod.

>>49766700
You do realize that droids aren't people right?

>>49756721
Hello, Lucien Draay!

>>49766016
"If I see another moron trying to shoot Jedi with a blaster, I will kill him myself."

>>49766590
Man, reminds me that the movie made Yoda behave like a total assburger.

>>49766841
Spoken like a true organic supremicist.

>>49766498
Albinism is also a genetic trait and taking out people that are aa would eventually make the gene a become a very rare shit and then get out of the gene pool. Also, i dont really know a lot about star wars, just passing by this thread... but arent the sith supposed to be only two persons? Like, even if they spent most of the time impregnating ladies i'd doubt that could counter a space entity that catches force sensitive babies and force them not to breed

>>49767317
>but arent the sith supposed to be only two persons
Nah, that's just a sort fo social contract the SIth have where there will only be one Master Sith and his Apprentice (heir apparent), there can be plenty of other force wielding mooks working for them in the lower orders, but only those two are allowed the title of Sith. It's just a heirarchy they established to keep infighting to a minimum because they tend to turnon each other pretty quickly when there's a whole load of them up in the higher power brackets

>>49756861
The Mandalorians are space Vikings who liked bombing civilian targets. That's pretty evil.

>>49756861
They exterminate civilian populations of entire worlds to "avenge" slights against them committed by a single member of the population, which was really just a wartime defeat.

They talk a lot about war and strength, but if anyone actually beats them they throw colossal temper tantrums and take their frustration out on people who can't defend themselves.

>>49767407
Somebody called them Space America, but that's not correct. The USA didn't bomb either Saudi Arabia or Egypt after all.

>>49756721
In my group's last campaign we played a group of archeologists and we had to protect a recently discovered New Sith Wars era Brotherhood of Darkness temple from a group of Jedi Shadows coming to destroy it.
Jedis being obscurantists is canon, and defending knowledge isn't evil, so yeah, it's possible to play good aligned characters against Jedi antagonists.

>>49766590
Another thing that's forbidden to Jedi is passion, and maybe it's possible to have sex dispassionately, but it kind of defeats the point, don't you think?

>>49766590
What happens if a female Jedi gets pregnant? Is she forced to have a midibortion?

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>>49756861
Depends on the era. Crusaders and Neo-Crusaders? Almost all dicks. Modern era? Other than Death Watch, they're mostly alright.

>>49767728
>Death Watch
>Not being alright

Nice try Duchess Satine, don't you have to be stabbed somewhere ?

>>49767349
In theory the Jedi never take Force-sensitive babies from their parents by force. In theory. But sometimes recruitment is low, and attachment is evil after all, so stealing a baby away from a family that's wickedly attached to it is doing a favor to everyone involved - from a certain point of view.

And if Force-sensitives are usually taken as babies, that means they're taken long before they actually use the Force in a noticeable way. (First uses of the Force almost always come in the form of premonitions, clairvoyance, or being really good at a skill like piloting, while more overt effects like telekinesis require training.) So how do they know where to look for Force-sensitive babies? A lot of planets in the Republic must have mandatory blood tests for babies that are then reported to the Jedi. They have this whole surveillance state that can be used for really sinister purposes, and probably has been.

>>49756721
Wrote a fanfic ages ago loosely based on the crucible about a Jedi coming to a small town and finding "sith" everywhere due to his own insecurities about his faith. It was shit but that sounds like a decent spring board.

>>49767431
They did drop two nukes on Japan, however

>>49767761
>they're taken long before they actually use the Force in a noticeable way
IIRC, noticeable by mundanes. Isn't there a whole category of force sensitives that can just feel the strength in the force of other people? They'd literally just need to go around keeping a force ear to the ground for disturbances in the force.

>>49767368
Mandalore in kotor 2 says that they didn't want to kill civilians but no-one would fight them if they didn't

>>49767991
>they didn't want to kill civilians but no-one would fight them if they didn't
That's still fucking evil anon, they're still killing innocents for fun. The fact that killing innocents just kickstarts fun times rather than being fun in itself is neither here nor there.

>>49767904
There are so many more planets in the galaxy than there are Jedi with time to spare on baby-wrangling, it'd save them a lot of time if they just had blood tests. And on the more developed planets, why wouldn't they?

>>49767991
....THEN GO SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR A FIGHT.

SWTOR uses Jedi antagonists pretty well when you play as a Sith, I think.
>mission where you're tracking a padawan who can sense people's true nature
>led into an encounter with two jedi trying to ambush you
>you can just talk to them saying you don't mean the padawan any harm, refuse to fight them
>one of them says they should just kill you, preferring "the permanence of death"
>the other can leave the room, refusing to fight a non-violent opponent with no evil intent
>you can goad the aggressive Jedi into attacking you by, as a Sith, saying things like "Your fall to the dark side will be swift." and "I'm the one maintaining my composure. I'm the better Jedi."

>>49768092
Well by canon a lot of jedis do spend their time jusrt wandering about the galaxy righting wrongs, because that's what the force tells them to do.
That said, blood tests are a canon thing on core worlds. The problem is that you can't organize those on planets where the republic doesn't have much of a presence.

>>49768126
Yes, this was neatly done.

you can litteraly go to the padawan's parents, offer them a nice paid retreat in Dromund Fucking Kaas, promise to them (and mean it) that you'll do harm to their daughter and want to train her.

all the while taunting the Jedi by saying that no hostilities are necessary, and staying calm.

>>49768168
do no harm to their daughter, I mean to say.

I'm retarded.

>>49768168
>offer them a nice paid retreat in Dromund Fucking Kaas
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole system a fucking barren shithole polluted by the dark side? I'm not seeing the appeal in your offer.

>>49768209
You just described Vegas

>>49768209
You get them a place to stay in Kaas City, which is the seat of the Empire. It's not all bad

>>49768126
My favourite jedi antagonist is the one in act 2 of the imperial agent because he's the most pragmatic jedi in the game, though it's arguable whether the agent is evil or not

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>>49768168
Playing a Light-side sith is SO interesting, I think, You become a complete death machine, who still operates with a sense of humour and a code of honour. It feels cool to do a good deed on a mission, then go back and force-strangle an NPC for sassing you.
And with the class questline itself, after you take on your apprentice your character can outright state that their goal is to try and reform the Empire from within, and so they must keep their motives secret.

>>49768262
Oh and that quest on Tatooine where you meet a reflection of yourself, and for lightside characters it's a shadowy version of yourself that warns you that other sith will eventually sniff out your true nature, and strike you down.

>>49758060
This. The Jedi ignore/do not get involved with plenty of corruption in the Republic purely because they feel the Republic is preferable to other systems of government. Lesser of two evils, as it were.

>>49756721
The jedi is javert, and the players stole bread

>>49765720
Every Sith Empire collapsed not due to outside forces, but due to power vacuums and infighting.

So Sith teachings would be Choose the side you think is going to win, and start killing your opponent's until that side has won. But cover your ass, because failure isn't going to be tolerated.

>>49768275
>>49768262
Playing morally nuanced sith/imperials literally old good part of TOR desu

>>49768262
How is the light side still seen to equal good guys, anyway? It's extremely puritanical, and it mandates dispassionate detachment from everything and everyone, a state of living death. A Light Side paragon is completely devoid of empathy and kills without feeling - believing death and suffering to be illusions, he has no qualms dealing death and suffering out to the unenlightened. The Dark Side means being able to enjoy life, and even if the Sith kill out of hatred, at least they're feeling something. Crimes of passion are much less harmful to society as a whole than unfeeling, industrialized brutality.

>>49768329
They robbed a house!

>>49768360
>Light Side paragon is completely devoid of empathy and kills without feeling - believing death and suffering to be illusions, he has no qualms dealing death and suffering out to the unenlightened.

...when has that ever been seen in the setting? All the greatest Jedi examples were highly, highly empathetic. The Jedi don't teach 'No emotions'. They teach 'Do not let your emotions cloud your judgement'

>>49768389
>There is no emotion, there is peace.

>>49768429

And when has any Jedi that wasn't a complete clone war psycho taken that was 'Emotions shouldn't exist'. Yoda was very kind and empathetic, as was Obi Wan.

>>49768389
>Vader is a war criminal who's committed countless atrocities
>But he's my dad and he's been nice for like 20 seconds

That was absolutely a case of empathy clouding Luke's judgment. If Vader had survived, Luke's irrational empathy for him probably would have turned him to the Dark Side, because only the Dark Side allows you to hold your own family to a different standard than everyone else.

>>49768454
They're both pretty cold and calculating when it comes to making actual decisions. They're both more than willing to lie to those closest to them without feeling bad about it.

>>49768466
they had a bond deeper than just father and son

they were robot arm buddies

>>49768454
There are a good few in the EU, the jedi code being ridiculous inflexible bullshit leading to trouble as often as it leads to wisdom is a plot point for like half the comics.
Hell Qui Gon Jinn was considered a borderline heretic for being a decent person.

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>>49768360
>>49768389
Part of this is because the first time we encounter both is in the OT, where the Sith are represented by a fascist totalitarian military regime that exterminate billions of non combatants to make a political point and the Jedi are represented by plucky underdogs fighting that regime

Another part is that George Lucas is not very good at communicating or representing the theme's he's playing with. The Jedi are meant to be space buddhists monks, wielding Xianxia magic and achieving a higher state of enlightened being by detaching themselves from the world.

Unfortunately shit gets fucked up when Lucas tries to imprint his western christian redemption values on a belief and ethics structure that is alien to it.

It's also worth noting that at the end of the day Jedi are people, very imperfect people, and very few rose to the levels of self control and mastery that the Main Characters in the star wars mythos have. thats why we see so many jedi get mowed down in Attack of the Clones, many of them are the jedi equivalent of central park tai chi practicers

>>49768466

Except by doing so, Luke redeemed vader and saved the day.

If he'd killed Vader, he'd have lost to the Emperor. His compassion and empathy, choosing not to strike down Vader saved the day. And it was defined with 'I am a Jedi, like my father before me'. So clearly going with that was not the non-Jedi choice.

>>49768479

Yeah but that's more the 'Emotions shouldn't cloud your judgement' than 'A state of living death'.

>>49768360
In the MMO at least, Light and Dark sides work a little differently for each class.
A light-side sith is a brutal fighter or sorcerer, who still has a sense of fair play and justice, and doesn't kill for no reason.
A light side imperial agent or republic soldier is willing to bend the rules of their mission to do good, wheras a dark-side one puts their mission above all else, regardless of collateral damage.

>>49768275
>tfw you flirt with your reflection
Quality writing from Bioware.

>>49768516

>It's also worth noting that at the end of the day Jedi are people, very imperfect people, and very few rose to the levels of self control and mastery that the Main Characters in the star wars mythos have. thats why we see so many jedi get mowed down in Attack of the Clones, many of them are the jedi equivalent of central park tai chi practicers

I'd disagree with that. Many of them were likely utter fantastic Jedi. They were not however fantastic combatants.

The Jedi were diplomats, mediators and philosophers primarily in a time period when the Sith were considered extinct.

>>49768518
>>49768389
>emotions shouldn't cloud your judgment

But emotions are the only basis for judgment. You can use reason to extrapolate which values must follow from other values, but if you start with no values to begin with, reason can't give you any. There can be no evaluative or prescriptive statements at all without emotion.

>>49768557
Which is exactly why Big Sheevy P wanted them in the middle of it, to make it so much simpler to kill off the shitty fighter/good diplomats. No one raises questions when they get shot in battle, but if they just got shot in their rooms...

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sup

>>49768365
Even worse. You will never escape, prisoner 5601

>>49768707

And now you have a war between two factions with most of the best mediators dead!

>>49768725
No anon, you're supposed to answer that they just broke a window pane, because their family was about to starve to death

>>49768734
A war where you're commanding both sides.

>>49768734
>>49768707
>>49768764

Sheev really was the best villain, as evidenced by the fact he actually succeeded. Unfortunately for him he got old and unimaginative and spent too long not getting a new body to inhabit

>>49768557
If we're evaluating the Jedi purely as diplomats, they're also shitty diplomats. They failed to prevent a completely preventable war from happening. They should have worked out an agreement with the Separatists, either allowing them to peacefully secede from the Republic or granting them concessions that will allow them to accept continued membership in the Republic.

And yes, I know Sheev is goading the Separatists into aggression, but he doesn't have much of a position of strength to bargain from to compete with the Jedi's peacemaking efforts. He has nothing he can offer them without revealing his secret identity, so he has no leverage over people he's not actively using a mind trick on at the time.

>>49768802
Isn't that exactly what they were doing until Count Dooku kidnaps Obi-Wan?

Besides, the Jedi don't command the Republic, the Republic decided to go to war. The Jedi's greatest error was tying themselves to the Republic government to begin with

>>49768802

>They should have worked out an agreement with the Separatists, either allowing them to peacefully secede from the Republic or granting them concessions that will allow them to accept continued membership in the Republic.

That is literally why they were on the ship in episode one. To prevent the embargo from turning into a war by talking it over as a neutral party.

However Palpatine organised for them to have an (Attempted) assassination on them. After that, there wasn't really a chance to talk it out.

>>49756721
There is such a thing as Grey Jedi. If it has to be a Jedi of the order it still works. Even in the movies they said some Jedi stay out for tens of years without contact doing their thing. That's plenty of time for some view warping to occur. Maybe the Jedi had his padawan die brutally in front of him and in his rage he lost himself killing the culprits. When he finely righted himself and returned to the past he noticed all the good that came out of the act in the local populations. Since he has first hand proof he now forgoes due process instead acting as judge jury and executioner. Jedi are still "human" and thus are affected in the same ways. History is full of those who legitimately thought they were doing good and had the moral high ground but where huge twats.

>>49768753
I havent seen or read les miserables in too long, i am forgetting

>>49768840
Funny thing is that at least one of the books I read called Qui Gon a grey Jedi, same with his pupil.

>>49768839
This. Palpatine also had Dooku foementing dissent and aggression as a respected former Jedi, purposefully fucking up diplomacy attempts. He covered all the angles.

>>49768840
>History is full of those who legitimately thought they were doing good and had the moral high ground but where huge twats.
This actually describes the jedi order itself for a good span of the old republic era.

>>49768875

The EU got a bit of an obsession with 'Jedi are Lawful Stupid, REAL good people are Grey' as it went along.

>>49768875
Qui Gon was borderline as evidenced by the Councils rejection of him, Obi Wan was much more straight laced and by the book.

>>49768894
To be fair the way Lucas wrote the jedi order was literally asking for it, you can't really avoid it.

>>49768923

Not really. Even before episode 1 it had that sort of 'I want to have my lightning and eat it' thing going on.

>>49768262
Light Side Sith best Sith.

>>49767827
True but that was am attempt to end the war, not revenge

>>49768262
God, for all the crap tortanic had, playing a light side sith warrior really helped make up for it. It was like playing a snarky samurai in Star Wars. I will forever cherish the conversations with Darth Baras while having Vette as companion.

>We'll meet again apprentice. I go now to seek communion with the Sith emperor.
>Tell him I said hello.
>I'm sure he'll be thrilled.

>>49769751
It was more about sending a signal to the Russians than anything else, really. The bomb didn't even do any more damage than a regular firebombing raid and they only had two.

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>>49768126
Was that the Warrior's story?
I only played as an Inquisitor and didn't get too far because the standards of writing (and animation) were pretty sub-par.

>>49756721
Sure, the Jedi were a bunch of powerful space wizards who were out of touch with reality and hopped up on their own view of themselves as the white knight good guys of the galaxy. For bonus points make the Jedi a behind-the-scenes kind of character that players only discover is really running the show for [morally ambiguous/dangerously pragmatic group X].

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>>49756721
Yeah. No shit.

Lemme tell you a story all about how my life got flipped; turned upside down.

And I'd like to take a minute -- just sit right there, I'll tell you how the Jedi/Rebellion are actually Al Qaeda.

So, you're a local on Coruscant. You live within a corrupt and bloated empire, but peace rules th galaxy (well, so long as you don't piss off the Emperor). At the very least, it's not quite as corrupt as when it was under the Senate, and at least you can get shit done. More than that, there's no longer a fucking religious order acting as the Senate's enforcers and whispering in their ear. Instead, the Force is dismissed as the fairytale it always was and the former Chancellor rules as an old man bearing the scars of his fight with the Jedi on his face.

Anyway, there's talk all across the sector of the new space station being built by the Imperial Navy. It's very hush hush, but it's supposed to be the size of an asertoid! A moon, even!

And then. Ohmygod. 9/11. More people die in one instant than ever before because of the fucking rebels. Do you know how many loyal Stormtroopers, cadets, officers, simple cleaning personnel were probably on that space station? All of them snuffed out by a fucking suicide run from the rebellion. And they'll be coming to our planets, next!

More than that, you hear that the Rebellion is trying to bring back the fucking theocracy that the Emperor freed us from. They're led by people claiming to be Jedi, or to hold up the mantle of the Jedi, trying once again to enslave the galaxy into their superstitious voodoo about the force.

Maybe your cousin worked on the Deathstar. Or a childhood friend. You immediately enlist with the Imperial Navy with some of your friends after a night of drinking. You go through basic together. You learn about the horrors of the rebellion and the old, theocratic days of the Jedi.

And you're deployed to a jungle planet where one of these so-called wizards is...

>>49771445
>9/11 happens

The World Trade Center was not a military superweapon like the death star.

Unless...

>>49771582
As a government, you don't tell the civilian populace that your superweapon is a superweapon

>>49771582
1. Peal Harbor

2. People would have still flipped their shit if it was an aircraft carrier with all hands that died.

3. Al Qaeda also targeted the Pentagon on 9/11.

Also this>>49771659

>>49769869
It was more to send the signal to japan and russia and we definitely had more (or the means to make them since we were going to nuke the place in the land invasion).

We REALLY didnt want to try to invade the japanese mainland, it would have gotten unfathomably ugly.

>>49771445
What you're saying is correct, aside from the part where you said that more innocent people died in an instant than ever before when the Death Star blew up. Alderaan had more civilians.

>>49771871
The Japanese didn't care, as I said, their damage reports found nothing remarkable as far as damage went and the US airforce was about to reach the point where they'd just be plowing through dirt where cities used to stand anyway.

The war had reached a point where all that mattered was whether the US would fancy seeing Japan split between themselves and Stalin or not. Claiming that the bomb did shit was a good way to safe face for all participants and for the Japanese to finally find some common ground with the US. It opened a chance to claim Dindu Nuff, which US diplomats understood and honoured as it's a cornerstone of their culture and mores.

>>49771871
I read that all the purple hearts issued after world war 2 were made in preperation for the invasion of Japan and we still have plenty left.

>>49756721
Joruus C'baoth

>>49756721
>Heroes on Both Sides

It's totally possible for unfortunate circumstances and a failure of diplomacy to make good people fight each other.
The Jedi and the Separatists were both being manipulated by a Sith lord. It's entirely possible there were Separatists with legitimate grievances against the Republic. Hell, the simple desire to leave the Republic isn't inherently evil in and of itself.
So, the protagonists are Kaleesh, or human mercenaries or whoever who wind up fighting for the Separatists. As far as they are concerned, they're fighting for freedom and the right to live without big brother watching over you, and the Jedi are trying to stop that.
Peace of cake.

>>49768519
Actually, a full dark-side Trooper is a petty asshole who sells Republic info, does nothing unless they're paid, and ignores orders. One of the options is to sacrifice a few hundred people to save an incompetent sergeant you were boning, after all.
There's a strange divide between the different dark side options Troopers have, like half are being a ruthless soldier and the other is being a corrupt bully, and I wouldn't mind so much if they gave both of those options all the time.

>>49772054
I was under the impression that this assumed the real destruction of Alderaan was kept secret. Imperial propaganda saying it was an asteroid or something

>>49772432
>Asteroids can't melt planet cores.

Conspiracy theories about the Empire actually destroying Alderaan. Pssh. You probably think Jawas control the intergalactic banking system

>>49772432
Pretty sure destroying the Alderaan was a deliberate show of force. Keeping it secret would defeat the point.

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>>49756721
Yeah, the main bad guy of the Star Wars campaign I run is a Jedi Master who's trying to weed out corruption within the Republic and stop the Sith Empire from conquering the galaxy.

Jedi fanaticism doesn't mean they're darksiders.

>>49756721
Not by default because George Lucas violently hates anything interesting.

But if you take some liberties like KotOR 2 did maybe...

Yes I know George Lucas is no longer behind Star Wars, but that doesn't remove the taint

>>49772175
Then why did they surrender after the atomic bomb and not after the firebombing on tokyo?

It wasnt that the bombing did a huge amount of damage that caused them to surrender, its how it was only one bomb.

Why is there a fuckin museum for hiroshima if it was "Nothing remarkable".

People gave a shit when the bomb fell, if Japan didn't care then Russia wouldn't either. Instead both did.

>>49773089
>Instead both did.
Russia knew and had men inside project Manhattan from top to bottom; the only reason they stalled on making their own bomb was Stalin's obsession with making sure they could do the whole process.

More importantly, they also surrendered when the non-aggression treaty with Russia ended. It's not just the bomb.

>>49772709
Then Alderaan was WW2 Japan

(Just to connect it to the other conversation going on)

>>49767368
I actually like whatshisnames spin on that "We didn't want to bomb civilian population centers. We wanted to bomb the shield generators. YOU guys built them in the middle of civilian population centers."

>>49771659
Honestly?

You have no idea how true that is.

>>49774830
Jedis are literally Hamas in Gaza.

>>49774899
Empire is the good guys, but Emperor is evil. Rebellion's evil too, with their indiscriminate attacks.

I want a trooper series focusing on >>49771445
going up against one of the surviving Jedi, or perhaps one of the new Jedi trained by Luke and his battalion of battle-hardened, fanatical rebels attacking from within civilian populations, staging ambushes in the trees.

Give me Vietnam, but where the Galactic Empire is America and G.I.s are Stormtroopers. But with the motivations of something like Afghanistan (given the religious leaders in the form of the Jedi).

Double up on the awesome by having the Stormtroopers disbelieve in the force (and also pushing the time gap between Revenge and a New Hope so it's not literally 20 years since the Jedi ruled the galaxy) and then disbelief and fear when it turns out their enemy is actually led by a psychic, mind-reading, telepathic wizard-monster with a laser sword.

>>49768344
>Every Sith Empire collapsed not due to outside forces, but due to power vacuums and infighting.

Exactly, make it like the IoM but in a smaller scale. A world so devoid of life and scarred by every type of conflict that only strongmen leaders can unite and keep them in line and they only listen to the barrel of the the gun or the steel on a sword or the cold gaze of a surveillance state with thought control.

>>49776184

When have the rebels been shown going after civilians/making indiscriminate attacks?

>>49776792
Imperial propaganda. Duh. Like when Kennedy was considering planting bombs in Miami and blaming it on communists as a pretext for war with cuba.

>>49761354
Well im an idiot, so there. Obviously that word doesnt mean what i thought it meant

>>49757359
Best idea so far

>>49774830
Where the fuck else do you put shields?

>>49777048
You put the generators away from civilians. You know. Like how the Empire put them in forests like responsible people.

>>49762903
>>49762916
>>49762927

At his lowest point in The Empire Strikes Back, Luke is brought low by Darth Vader, who has the high ground both in position and emotional control, but he escapes by jumping and spinning.

Even in the beginning of A New Hope, Leia's ship has the low perspective compared to the Star Destroyer.

>>49756782
>all LG. If you oppose on
isnt absolutes in general a dark side trait.

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>>49768262
>RP as pragmatic Sith Warrior that does what must be done to strengthen the Sith but does not take part in pointless cruelty
>Spare useful agents with potential, quickly end the lives of others I cant use, leave no loose ends
>Learn my master had betrayed me and eventually attain revenge
>Gain real authority but my choices become harder as more and more is at stake
>Career ends with me casually ordering the murder of an entire planet so as to maintain the secrecy of a Sith planetary takeover for a resource critical to turning the tide of the war
>mfw I realize I've become the very type of Sith I've hated for so long

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>>49769966
>The answer is literally just to shoot at it with lightning

>>49759753
Yeah, okay, Darth Edgus

>>49769966
Inq was hilarious, what's not to like about Scooby-Doo in Space?

Warrior story was balls-numbingly boring. It is literally the most vanilla story I have ever read.

Easily. You're all seperatist soldiers. Done.

>>49766590
My justification was that the order realized how badly their rules can double-down on bad shit like that so they'd rather have it out in the open

Soooo... this has been on my mind for a while. If you can have slightly different stats for sub-races of say elf, dwarf, whatever. Why is it racist to apply the same principle to humans?

Won't that make them less 'vanilla' then too?

>>49772842
>Jedi fanaticism doesn't mean they're darksiders.
Yes it does, that much emotion is literally what creates the darkside.

>>49766590
Star Wars post-original series is so fucking dumb.

>>49767643
Why would she? She might choose to if she thinks it would interfere with her duties too much but there's nothing that suggests they had to. It is implied however that they typically don't, I assume they just have effective contraceptives.

>>49781637
It really seems like they're space Catholics, though - they wouldn't be allowed to use contraceptives because they aren't supposed to have sex because sex is fun and fun is a sin.

>>49768134
>because that's what the force tells them to do

Doesn't the Force have two sides, though, which means it probably has two wills? And neither side is particularly intelligent, just embodying one of the two general principles of life. The light side wants everything to be static and passive and orderly, and the dark side wants everything to be dynamic and active and messy. They're inseparable from each other because the interplay between them is what causes time to have a noticeable direction.

>>49781728
>Doesn't the Force have two sides, though, which means it probably has two wills?
this is a misconecption. The 'dark side' of the force is not an actual 'dark side', it's a corruption.

>>49781728

Nah, it's not two sides.

It's harmony vs disorder. The light side is flowing with the force, the dark side is forcing it to do your will.

Rebels recently showed off the Dark Side version of Jedi Mind Tricks. It's pretty god damn horrifying to see people forced to commit suicide against their own will in a KID'S SHOW.

>>49781775
Got a clip of that? I'd like to see.

>>49781927

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Szz0GxXkLY

Here you go. Bloodless (It IS a kid's show) but pretty damn dark.

>>49782006
lmao dis little nigga gonna fall hard as fuck

>>49782006
I like Ezra's makeover, makes him look a lot more mature.
Hate Sabine's though.

>>49782052

Sith Holocrons: Not even once.

>>49782052
>>49782006
Why? Why is this any different from just shooting them all to death with blasters? The outcome is the same; in the end they're just all dead.

>>49782108
I feel like a majority of people just believe that forcing someone to kill them self and their friends is more evil than just doing it yourself.

>>49782108
BUT MIIINDRAAPE IS BAAAAAD.

Yeah ok, and killing them isn't?

I agree it's silly but that's the slippery slope type shit, just because it's no different result than using light side, he's gonna fall just because he IS using dark force.

>>49782128
>Yeah ok, and killing them isn't?

Well, one is Murder + Mindrape one is just Murder. The former is compounding the crime. It's like how you get charged for rape even if you killed the person afterwards.

>>49782108
Don't think too hard on it, any setting with established "good" and "bad" sides is not going to be philosophically sound. Just use the ruleset it works within and suspend disbelief, if you can do it for midichlorians you can do it for the dark side.

>>49781775
>The light side is flowing with the force, the dark side is forcing it to do your will

That's basically true, but that means that the cardinal sin from which the entire dark side springs is having a will and a sense of self. The light side is based on self-denial, denial of the one thing each of us knows for certain: that our own self exists. From that point of view it's the light side that's unnatural.

>>49782151

Not really. The Light side has a sense of self, it's just not forcing something else to do your bidding. The Light Side is more about being in tune and understanding how the world around you works. The Dark side is about not caring how it works, just wanting it to do as you want.

Drawing a little from a river vs letting everything else in the area die because you dammed it up without thinking about what that river was granting life to.

>>49777323
>Only Sith deal in absolutes.

>>49782145

Something can have moral absolutes and be philosophically sound. It may not line up with how people would like it to be but it can be philosophically sound. There are several philosophies about such.

>>49756721
Yes, this is entirely possible, and fairly easy, really. Think of any scenario where a cop would be the antagonist but not evil, and just Star Wars that up.

>Your party has been framed for a terrible crime and a Jedi is hunting you down
>Your party are relic hunters that desperately need money for good or neutral reasons. You are in possession of ancient Jedi/Sith holicrons. A Jedi is pursuing you, insisting that you have no right to the relics and have broken the law by taking them.
>The Republic is defending a politically savvy despot against your righteous but illegal insurrection. A Jedi has arrived to protect the rule of law.

>>49782187
There isn't a single philosophy that can prove moral realism actually.
And you can't use any sort of moral relativism in a setting like Star Wars, because you actually have a canon natural force (the Force) with moral significance (call it good and evil or harmony and chaos doesn't really make any difference, it's still a behavioural ruleset like any other moral code).

>>49782173
But even drawing a little from a river is still taking from it. The difference between that and taking it all is a difference of degree rather than kind. The truly selfless thing to do would be to deny your own thirst and let yourself die of dehydration.

>>49782242
You don't need to prove that your philosophy is true to have it be self-consistent. All models of moral realism accept certain moral statements as axioms and then derive other moral conclusions from those.

>>49782384
It doesn't need to be self consistent, it needs to be consistent with everything else, which it can't since it relies on axioms to achieve even just self consistency.
In fact, you could argue that requiring axioms is enough to make something not philosophically sound at all.

>>49782484
>being this stupid

You've shown how little you know about the subject we're discussing. Every philosophy starts with some kind of axioms, even if they're something as basic as "I exist" or "nothing can both be and not be." A philosophy can't hold itself up by its own bootstraps. It must stand on something that it cannot itself justify.

>>49782559
>what is skepticism

>>49756721
sure, but maybe its all just a big misunderstanding or the jedi is used by someone even more evil ( like how palapatine used the republic and cis)

>>49782600
That's a good question. If you're such a radical skeptic that you do not accept anything at all as a basis for reasoning, you can't even say what it is you're doing.

>>49771582
This is my new 9/11 conspiracy theory

>>49759895
Don't forget the high pedigree space elf waifu.

>>49758789
kek

>>49782128
>he's gonna fall just because he IS using dark force

Mind tricks are allowed on both sides, though. Most of the "good" Jedi use them at one time or another. And Jedi are also allowed to fight and kill, so doesn't it follow that they should be allowed to use a mind trick in battle, assuming the battle is for some kind of good cause?

>>49768507
The EU is garbage and any reasonably sensible person should just ignore it completely (except for KotOR maybe). Luckily Disney declared all the EU shit made before they bought Star Wars non-canon.

>>49784101
Well, lets make a comparison here.

You have two people captive, you shoot them both dead.

or

You have two people captive and force one to murder the other, before killing the survivor.

Which of the two is more fucked up?
In the end they are both dead, but the methodology matters.

>>49784101

Yes but this is expressly a Dark Side power. This isn't the more neutral mind-trick.

He literally learned it from a Sith Holocron.

>>49784203
The first one is more fucked-up because in that case you're personally responsible for both murders, while in the second case you share the blame.

Okay tell about SWTOR, I've been hankering for Star Wars for a while and thought about replaying Kotor 2, but what storyline is the most worth to play in TOR?
Also how hard and timeconsuming it will be considering it is an mmorpg?
I don't want to have to deal with other players either.

>>49784614
Fair warning to you, it has possibly the most ham-stringing F2P model in any MMO

>>49784634
I don't give one shit about the mmo part. I just want to go though one of the stories Bioware supposedly poured their heart into and scrapped Kotor 3 for.

>>49784614
I played it for a bit before it became F2P, and I remember a lot of mindless grinding. Maybe not more than other MMOs, but more than I care for.

>>49784658
>Grinding at 75% exp
>Only have Humans and Humans With Metal Bits to play as
>Capped credit limit
>Limited loot drops
>Gimped item storage
>Gimped revivals
But hey if you want to pay a bit to remove the mechanical limitation enforced by F2P go for it by all means. But that won't affect such things as the scale problems, nor the usual MMO hangups like grinding (refer back to the 75% exp thing), fetch quests and filler out the ass in between your story instances.

Honestly man, unless you want to take it as a full MMO package it is not worth the space on your hard drive

File: 1461668784345.gif (914KB, 290x198px) Image search: [Google]

914KB, 290x198px

>>49784614
The limited things I've seen and read about TOR's story proves 100% that the obsidian writers either had nothing to do with it or were ignored.

The story is a shittastic spewing of typical "room full of chosen ones" lines and some truly suicide worthy cutscenes and dialogue.

>>49780353
Because it's such a touchy subject in the real world. Personally, it's a can of worms I prefer not to touch.

>>49780353
Because humans have surprisingly little genetic diversity. Sure, black people can run faster, but we can swim faster. In terms of general strength and physical coordination, there's barely any difference. And any mental differences can and have been explained as being due to differing standards of education.

>>49785085
>but we can swim faster
>we

>>49785128
I'm white,so I'm writing as a white person.

>>49785085
>Sure, black people can run faster, but we can swim faster.

That's not even true. There are hereditary lines that enable you to sprint fast, and some of these are common in black people, but those are very specific subsets of people, and it definitely isn't true for all black people. That's hick logic, anon.

>>49785085
>>49785154
That's such a fucking white thing to say.

>>49785155
Thanks for pointing that out. I always thought white people and black people just had slightly different centers of mass, but I suppose I was generalising there.

>>49785168
What, that there's barely any differences between different ethnic groups?

>>49785195
Saying "we" on an anonymous image board, referring to white people.

>>49782006
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Szz0GxXkLY
>>49782052
>>49782105
Picked back the fuck up.

>>49762903
>>49762916
>>49762927
ha yeah reddit sure does have some funny stuff :)

>>49782108
The difference is that you're using the Force to do it. Same with how Force Lightning is basically synonymous with the Dark Side, but shooting someone with a blaster or cutting them up with a lightsaber isn't. It's not a simple matter of what you're trying to achieve; you're taking the Force, an energy field which is linked to all living things in the universe, and twisting it into a weapon to destroy life. That self-centered passionate drive, to forcibly use the world to fulfill your desires at its expense, that is what corrupts Force users. That is the Dark Side.

>>49782368
The Light Side thing to do would be to drink what you need to satiate yourself, water your crops, and let the water flow through the water cycle and nourish the other crops. It's about harmony between oneself and the world, being part of the greater whole; to equate that to mindless self-destruction is a faulty conclusion drawn from an utterly selfish perspective, where others are the equivalent of nothing and any good things that go to them might as well be thrown in a bottomless pit.

>>49761354
But anon, only sith deal in absolutes, which is why they and all who even tangentially support them must be purged, for the greater good.

>>49785521
As someone who doesn't watch the show this should definitely end in severe punishment or a descent into sithdom

>>49786740
that show is all about committing warcrimes

>>49787747
Indeed.
I just wish Thrawn would get a bit more screentime.

>>49785885
Pretending that you don't consume at all when you consume as much as you feel entitled to is the selfish mode of thinking. Anything you consume is indeed thrown in the bottomless pit of your own foolish desire. We who do not kill ourselves have embraced at least a little bit of entitlement and selfishness.

>>49787747
The laws and customs of war are always written to favor the strongest. Rebels and underdogs need to break the rules to have a chance.

>>49788454
It's not just them breaking them, in last weeks episode imperial fighters blew up a cargo ship after its fighter wings had been destroyed and it had surrendered.

>>49788466
Why?

>>49756721
Easy. Everyone is Jedi padawans. Antagonist is the Academy bully. Force powered hijinks commence!

>>49788484
Dunno, later on that episode the guy who blew it up is holding a flight simulation for Tie pilot cadets and puts them on the same situation.
They dont shoot it on sight and instead the MC's OP cargo ship with weapons of mass destruction jumps in and destroys the pilots, so i guess it could be because empire is done with the MC's shenanigans and instead of doing it by the book they just want to kill the rebels before they have a chance of killing them.

A rather smart move if you ask me.

>>49788546
Oh, so he was trying to blow up the rebel's ship.
I thought they had captured some random cargo ship and decided to blow it up just because.

>>49788484

Because they wanted to send a message.

>>49788546
I wish the Empire did this all the time.
Luke and his pals would have died way earlier if the imperial shot down any mysterious ship trying to get inside something they own instead of allowing it to land and sending some stormtroopers to search inside.

>>49788565

It was a cargo ship providing relief to a place blockaged by the Empire. So while it was opposing imperial blockages it was also unarmed and just carrying food.

They do make a point at the start of the episode of mentioning that the ship isn't part of the rebellion or helping them, just bringing food to civilians.

>>49788598
Well it went more like this...
>Cargo ship along with A-wings flying towards planet
>Imperial ship jumps in and launches its Tie Interceptors
>Interceptors annihilate the A-wings
>Cargo ship sends a message that it's surrendering
>Fighters respond with a "nope" and blow it up

>>49788619
Still, being under a rebel fighter coverage is pretty incriminating.

>>49788658

Oh yeah. It's however, also against imperial regulations to do this shit. Like, later on they have pilots go 'Wait Sir, this is against imperial regulations' and his reply is basically 'Regulations don't matter if orders contradict them, kill the civilians'

>>49756721
Played a game like this.

>jedi order in height of power
>group is a bunch of treasure hunters that operate in unknown space
>party member is force user
>follows religious beliefs about balance between yin and yang/dark and light shit
>looting temple to get a hutt some artifacts
>encounter jedi expedition
>leader notices our force guy using dark side powers
>accuses us of being siths robbing a potential ancient jedi temple
>try to explain we are just treasure hunters and he isn't jedi or sith
>jedi doesn't buy it and immediately tries to 'escort' us back to coruscant for questioning
>we all got our reasons for not being in unknown space and don't want to go back
>fight jedi squad off and end up as wanted men by the jedi
>all throughout the campaign we had to dodge jedi

It was really fun. Most of us weren't bad guys and understood what the Jedi did was important so we never killed anyone but we constantly had to kick jedi ass. Turned out that in the end the temple we were in really was an ancient jedi temple and the hutt was having us steal WMD magic treasure for some sith lord, so we joined up with the jedi and took down the sith.

>>49777371

There's no winners on the Dark Side.

>>49788598
The Empire makes a lot of dumb decisions. If you're going to invest in superlasers, don't go for one that blows up planets; for the same resources you could probably make like twenty smaller ones that destroy cities and military bases, or maybe even render a planet uninhabitable without actually exploding it.

>>49772432
>Governor Tarkin: You're far too trusting. Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration - but don't worry; we will deal with your rebel friends soon enough.

What part of "The senate has been dissolved; Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station." makes you think that the Death Star was going to be a secret battle station?

Palpatine was ruling through death threats. To all you Vader haters out there, we'll blow your planet up!

I've been toying with the idea of a Force-sensitive slave who grew up on a planet ruled by Hutts, was told stories of the just and noble Jedi Order by his mother, and always dreamed of becoming a Jedi himself so he could overthrow the Hutts and free his fellow slaves.

Eventually he would abandon his master, and fall in with a crew of vagabonds bound for the stars. In the course of his adventures, he would meet one of the last surviving Jedi, in hiding from the Empire. He would train with said Jedi for a while, learning a great deal of the Force and of Lightsaber combat. But he would always struggle to control his anger, a weakness that disturbed his teacher.

Feeling that his teacher was withholding power from him unfairly, our hero would abandon his training and return to his homeworld, intent on using his newfound Jedi powers to start a slave uprising. While initially successful, his rebellion would soon be derailed and splintered by internal politics. Desperate to maintain control, our hero would give in to his anger and start wielding the Force more and more heavy-handedly. He would become convinced that the people were too petty, selfish and small-minded to govern themselves, and that only his all-powerful control and benevolent guidance could lead to a better world.

Basically, our hero would end up sliding straight into Sithdom in a way that was completely natural and realistic. He'd be Spartacus meets Robespierre with space-wizard powers.

>>49788725
The Death Star wasn't meant to be used as a weapon but rather as a symbol of fear like >>49788793 explained.
The Empire was planning to use it to basically tell the whole galaxy "Bow down to us or get your shitty planet blown up".
It was the perfect incarnation of Tarkin's "rule through fear" doctrine.

>>49788793
>To all you Vader haters out there, we'll blow your planet up!

Fuck, anon, now you made me feel old. That was from junior high.

>>49787965
Then kill yourself, instead of shitting on the galaxy.

>>49784151
Not all of the EU is garbage anon, otherwise they wouldn't be stealing from it so liberally
Shit like the Bendu, references to Tython, Thrawn, KotOR shit like you said, etc
There's some interesting stuff out there, it's just that most of it takes place in the time frame of the new canon(Inbetween 3 and the OrigTrig and everything after Jedi)

Hell I still think they're creatively bankrupt enough to steal Jaina-Jacen for the new movies

>>49767761
>In theory the Jedi never take Force-sensitive babies from their parents by force.
That's not saying much when with a wave of their hand they can get you to give up your child "willingly"

I read the wookie a long time ago, if I remember the Jedi had a deal with the Republic that any force sensitive child belonged to the Jedi Order. So if your child is born on a world that's part of the Republic and they have a high enough midi count then it was a literally against the law not to hand them over.

Checking midi counts was part of standard blood tests at young ages, but force visions, sensing the force in someone, and outright showing of force abilities were other ways that the Jedi could claim a child. One baby rodian levitated toys in TCW episode where Cad Bane stole force sensitive children, so force sensitivity can show itself at fairly young ages.

The Jedi reasoned that a child being force sensitive showed that the child was "choosing" to be a part of the Order, and leaving them with their parents was just the parents being selfish. So, obviously, the right thing to do is to detach the child away from their parents and raise them in the temple. Preferably as peacefully as possible (aka mind trick).

I don't know if has ever been covered before what happens if a highly force sensitive child is born on an Outer Rim planet outside Republic territory that the parents do not want to give up. Like what extent the Jedi Order will go to to get the child away from the parents. The PT Jedi Order was pretty fucked up, very cultish.

>>49792026
Aaaand this shit is why being a grey Jedi and fucking off to live on a farm is the best option in this universe.

I'm pretty sure I, or any of us really, would be labelled as Sith for either using our powers like a five year old with a new toy, or actively trying to avoid that insane death cult of soulless zealots.

>>49788598
There were probably numerous ships showing up to Alderaan's "space" right after it got destroyed, I mean it was a core world so any ship that was heading there probably got picked up. Though the falcon was probably the first ship there? It happens pretty quick.

>>49788793
What is thy bidding my master?

>>49792026
>I read the wookie a long time ago, if I remember the Jedi had a deal with the Republic that any force sensitive child belonged to the Jedi Order. So if your child is born on a world that's part of the Republic and they have a high enough midi count then it was a literally against the law not to hand them over.

Where the hell in the movies is that from? As I'm pretty sure the ONE example of a kid being taken from his parents they talked it over with her first and she agreed.

>>49787965
As long as you are giving back to your parents and society in some way, you are not being selfish by continuing to exist. You don't exist in a vacuum, your parents and your society both put work into your existence at some point, even if you were abandoned at birth and have been homeless, you still benefitted from 9 months in your mother's uterus and you walk around every day on roads built by and maintained by society.

Your continued existence so long as you contribute in some way isn't selfish, killing yourself without paying your debts to the world IS purely selfish.

I'm probably wasting my time here though. You seem not to have empathy nor recognize inherent value in life. Whether you acknowledge it or not, you live interconnected with countless other organisms who would be, however slightly, impacted by your death, and the majority of them would not benefit at all from your death. Think about others for a moment.

>>49795010
never said in the movies.
But the whole "jedis are baby snatchers" thing has been mentioned several times in odd sources like those species encyclopedia books.

>>49795430

So stuff that's not canon any more? As I'll admit, I was never a fan of how the EU decided 'Previously Unmentioned Grey is best, Jedi are somehow nearly as bad as Sith' in a decent number of examples.

>>49768521

> implying I wouldn't flirt with my reflection
> implying I don't do this every morning

>>49795438
>Jedi baby snatchers

It's still canon to, since it was mentioned in one of the last TCW episodes (the disappeared part 1).

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Disappeared,_Part_I

"Several of the Dagoyan Masters – Bardottan mystics with a strong but passive connection to the Force – have disappeared in mysterious circumstances. The Chancellor wonders why the Bardottans did not want the Jedi involved in the investigation, and Yoda explains that the Dagoyans saw the Jedi's induction of Force-sensitive Bardottan children into their order as kidnapping."

>>49756721
>players are weird alien predators
>jedi is trying to move the Animals away from the City sewers

>>49786619
>only Sith deal in absolutes
That line was a load of shit. The Jedi back in the days of the Republic believed that you couldn't go to the Dark Side and return. That's pretty absolute.

They were also wrong. Years later, Luke brings his father back from the Dark Side and even took a trip there himself and returned. Also, Gray Jedi were a thing as well as that race who saw The Force as a spectrum.

>inb4 "Not canon." Fuck Disney.

Although, the last part of your post makes me think you might be saying that ironically.

>>49781775
I remember the first time I saw the Sith Mind Trick in The Force Unleashed. I couldn't believe I never thought that Mind Trick could be used that way.

>>49796223
Note that it's never actually stated that the Jedi actually kidnapped, only that the Dagoyan Masters - a group of truly pacifistic Force users - considered the Jedi to have kidnapped the children.

We don't actually know the circumstances, and the only other time in TCW that we see a child brought to the Jedi was Ahsoka, who was willingly given.

>>49796326

It's a nice dynamic. Jedi are subtle, working with the least push possible. Sith grab and twist your mind with raw power.

>>49768262
The sith warrior has a great story. Shame the game is meh as fuck and the expansion did away with anything accomplished in the story.

>>49756721
The force gives those strong in it the power of prophesy right?

It isn't perfect, but the jedi clearly put a lot of faith in it

It's simple, just have the jedi council see a prophesy in which the PCs cause a galactic-scale disaster of some kind. The Jedi would be obligated to stop you from fulfilling this disastrous prophesy, but the party hasn't done anything wrong, so they, naturally, flee for their lives

Then the disaster happens because the Jedi chasing them caused it, technically meaning they caused it by extension, because he wouldn't have caused the disaster if they weren't there. Because prophesy shenanigans are great

>>49796339
>You kidnapped our children!
No we just inducted them :^)
>We're their parents, we want them back!
Nope, they want to be in the Order their force sensitivity proves it ;^)
>Don't you see how fucked up it is taking children away from-
*wave hand* You don't remember your child :^P
>I-I don't remember any child...
Oh good, I guess the Jedi Order doesn't kidnap kids to indoctrinate into our cult ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>49796790

And what proof do you have for those statements?

>>49796790
I'll take things that never happened for 200.

>>49796761
That's literally the plot of the KOTOR comics.

>>49796339
>only that the Dagoyan Masters considered the Jedi to have kidnapped the children.
Protip, it's still kidnapping if the child goes of their won volition.
Imagine a black van in th emiddle of a park with "Free candy" plastered on the side. You expect that is a lure for children to be kidnapped, yes? But it is the child who goes into the van of their own volition because they are told there is free candy to be had.
Same deal, van, jedi order, seedy dude, jedi recruiter, candy force training or powers.

If the child leaves with the jedi without the parent's concent, it's kidnapping.
It's also kidnapping if they get mindtricked.

>>49767761
The Jedi don't really take your baby if you are truly against it.
It's just that more parents know that the Jedi can give their baby a better life than what they can.
Even though it's not canon anymore there was even the comic mentioned by >>49766072 about a bounty hunter trying to steal Force sensitive babies from the Jedi in order to bring them back to their parents.