Warmachine/Hordes General

>>49750722
Dubs witnessed.

JUSTICE FOR CRYX

Second for Warmachine Tactics

>>49750758
Haven't played WM/H in years, what happened?

Played Xerxis1 vs Kreoss1 yesterday. Kept Xerxis tucked away behind Cetrati constantly, he couldn't crack them, they chewed through jacks. He had some bad rolls though, but it was pretty one sided.

>>49752139
Skorne OP plz nerf

>>49752269
>In the fluff Xerxis got his back broken fighting 2 Circle warlocks at the same time
We know the truth Anon. He broke his back from carrying the entire faction by being our best designed and thus most competitive warlock. In Khador he'd be mid tier at best.

>>49752305
I wish he kept inhospitable ground. Actually I wish he kept everything about his old spell list lol.

Anyone have the mk3 card for satyxis raiders? I could've sworn they had CMA but my app (WHAC) doesn't show it

>>49752359
NOT ANYMORE

>>49752359
That was Mk2. Mk3 it's gone

>>49752305
b-but muh Rasheth

>>49752394
Rasheth was good because of his tier list that made titans cheaper. Then titans got cheaper in Mk3 so now you look at his spell list which is okay but not astounding. I keep looking at Stryker1 and sighing. I wish I could give Cetrati +3ARM and +8ARM on feat turn. I wish I could cast Snipe on a unit rather than it being self cast only as a shitty animus.

>>49752444
>snipe on Reivers
Oh lord.

Did you know that there are 867 separate model entries in War Room (not counting league models or steamroller objectives, attachments separate from units)? 5% of that is 43.35. If you remove Skorne (72 models) from the equation, that's 795 entires and 5% is 39.75.

So, outside of Skorne, a faction that deserves the complete rework they are supposed to be getting (good luck, fellas), what are your picks for the 40 most over performing model entries and the 40 most under performing model entries?

For those of you that don't want to do that much work, maybe just the 10 best and worst?

>>49752373
>>49752381
Ghey, I thought they just lost AD, thanks though

>>49752563

It's their UA's mini-feat, but yeah.

>>49753233
Except it's not called Snipe. They would stack.

>>49753323
Except it is literally called snipe. The minifeat says "they gain snipe" and then an explanation of what snipe is.

>>49752691
>Best
Storm Lances, Wurmwood, Dawnguard Invictors, Dawnguard Sentinels, Storm Lances, Ossyan, Hellmouth, Storm Lances.

>Worst
A bunch of shit no one's heard of because no one ever fields it. Do you know what Keltarii do?

>>49753551
Oh. Thought it was the same as the Invictor one in Mk2.

>>49753776
Keltarii are better than swordsmen at least. But he said to not count skorne stuff.

>>49752691
Manowar demo corps and kossites are definitely in the bottom 40. Other choices for me are highshields, sea dog deck guns, tactical arcanist corps, ogrun assault corps, gatorman posse

>>49752034
MkIII happened. Some armies fell. Others rose. Prices got jacked up a bit. Lots of people got salty over changes.

>>49754099
Speaking of Man-o-Wars, I had left at the tail end of MkII, but noticed that Shocktroopers finally got a command attachment. Does he actually make them viable, or are Man-o-Wars still useless?

>>49754258
With the CA they're probably the best heavy infantry in the game. He gives them assault, steady, sturdy (can't be pushed), and he's a mat 8 pow 15 with crit freeze.

>>49753776
I know Keltarii are a Skorne thing, and are Def 15 vs guns.

Also, you listed Storm Lances 3 times. Why do you feel they are so heinous? Are there no other models that exceed at performing their intended role as ably as the Storm Lances?

>>49754367
Sentry Stones

>>49754367
>I know Keltarii are a Skorne thing, and are Def 15 vs guns.

The Skorne thing is "how do we make a Blade Shield unit suck"

>answer was make them over-costed offensively irrelevant

>>49754367
The thing that gets me about Storm Lances is that they are so good that everyone hates them, but Cygnars other infantry are so bad that nerfing Lances will just make Cygnar never take infantry again.

>>49755176
Trenchers.

>>49752034
PP decided that the shitty players who kept losing with their fancy Cygnar shit lists needed a boost, so they pulled a GW move, put out Mk3 to buff gunlines so their special snowflake faction became godlike without needing any manner of skill, and fucked over everyone else. Cryx and Skorne got fucked specifically and deliberately, just as planned, and there are still "people" on /tg/ that are PP apologists making excuses that it wasn't premeditated when it's obvious to anyone that doesn't play Cygnar that it absolutely was.

>>49755430
>Khador gets best shooting unit in game in MkIII
>Hurr Durr this was a pro Cygnar conspiracy!

>>49755638
Ironically enough, Cygnar shooting lists can deal with Khador shooting lists rather easily.

>>49755722

A Cygnar's designated antagonist, Khador is basically tow-cabled through warmachine in it's wake.

The real enormities get to happen in Ret's favor, which isn't given much thought at all. It's justice, of a sort.

>>49755753
SKREEONK

>>49750722

>didn't think Revenants were a problem

Beat gunlines to death with the nerfbat, infantry will come back, and you'll see.

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>>49755753

>>49752394

It is pretty weird that Raseth isn't really performing. But he ain't.

It could be a Skorne thing; part of having such a thorough problem is that *you have no idea* what is actually good in there, or a way of finding out with any confidence.

You're reduced to comparing stats and abilities. The only thing table time tells you is that you're deep in the shit.

>>49757002
Here's my opinion on it.

Skorne right now is underperforming because no one owns reivers, ferox, or artillery. Skorne would still be marginal with those, but we'd be in a better spot. But at the same time very few skorne players, myself included, want to invest more money into this sinking ship. Skorne players are having to rely on the stuff we owned from mk2 which is now mostly garbage. It doesn't help that skorne as of yet doesn't have anyone that can make use of venators except for Rasheth.

>>49757047
That trivialized those problems.

There's a lot more problems with Skorne than not owning those units.

All their warlocks, for example.

>>49757118
Most of the units are garbage now. I'm saying that Skorne is underperforming even worse than it otherwise would because the few ones that are good most people don't own. Add Karax to that. Trevor from Chain Attack for example was struggling for months because he didn't own Karax at the start of mk3.

>>49754367
Electro Leap on a gun on a really fast model with reposition. They chew through enemy infantry like nothing from a safe range. AND THEY COST LESS THAN SKORNE INFANTRY.

Oh and they have assault.

>>49757217
He's still struggling after getting Karax because they get murdered by gunlines.

>>49757047
>Reivers
RAT5 with no support in a world of RAT6 with support.
>Ferox
You need to stop with this. You're only hurting yourself.
>Artillery
You mean a Cannoneer without the ability to hit and boost against heavies and without the animus Mordikaar can actually use well?

Rules Question:
Do spells that deal elemental damage also count as magical damage?

>>49757580
Spells are always magic damage.

>>49758055
So I can use my casters awful blasts to take out incorporeal solos like pistol wraiths? Excellent

>>49754258
Between the CA and the changes to the Kovnik, the Shocktroopers are downright good now.

>>49757047

Well, some people had Karax (Mordikaar freaks, mostly), and they reported back that they were the real thing now and you needed to get them on the table to have any hope of staying in the game.

Some people had Ferox and more people got them, they were praised for their offense, maligned for their expense.

Venators and artillery... silence.

Everything about this game feels dated as hell

>>49755430

Cyngar will always get the "best stuff" since they are Matt Wilson's "baby".

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>>49755430
>Cryx and Skorne got fucked specifically and deliberately, just as planned

I bet you were a Banespammer in MkII. While Skorne did get completely and truly fucked by PP, Cygnar players actually spent MkII playing Cygnar Warcaster+Mercs, while every faction in the game (besides Gators late into MkII) hated Cryx with a burning passion.

We knew the day would come when Cryxian tears would flow freely at the loss of their OP status, and that time is now.

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>>49758190
>I know why I have this boner

>>49759761

Rules are, if anyone is willing to complain about Cryx months into mk3, he is our brother.

>passed the rats jumping ship test

>New Menite Character Jack
Eye of Truth is the personal warjack of Malekus, the Burning Truth. Such is the pair’s connection that Malekus can channel spells through Eye of Truth while it is in his control range. Even when not with his favored warcaster, however, Eye of Truth represents a powerful weapon in the Protectorate’s arsenal, as the holy warjack allows friendly models to ignore bonuses from enemy spells that add to an enemy model’s DEF or ARM and can even use its innate power to ignore a single damage roll each turn.

>Feora3
The latest incarnation of this player-favorite warcaster, Feora, the Conquering Flame excels at bringing the flames of the Creator straight to her enemies. Able to stoke the fires of wrath within her army using her spell Incite, this version of Feora plays up-front and aggressive with an impressive ARM 18, as well as boasting great threat mobility thanks to Assault, Reposition [3"], and her classic spell Fire Step.

>>49760145
>>49760163
Yusssssssss

http://conflictchamber.com/#bc1bdjd7dBd4d5d5d5d5d5d9dzdzdDdDdF

Convergence Army - 75 / 75 points

(Lucant 1) Father Lucant, Divinity Architect [+28]
- Cipher [16]
- Corollary [6]
- Diffuser [6]
- Galvanizer [5]
- Galvanizer [5]
- Galvanizer [5]
- Galvanizer [5]
- Galvanizer [5]
- Inverter [15]
Optifex Directive [4]
Optifex Directive [4]
Steelsoul Protector [4]
Steelsoul Protector [4]
Transfinite Emergence Projector [19]
- Permutation Servitors

>Good luck, I'm behind 11 Shield Guards!

>>49750722
have the point values changed in Mk.3?

Is forwardkommander is applicable?

>>49760535
Use Conflict Chamber.

Points have changed immensely.

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Looking through the Convergence WTC lists, I get the love for Mother. I get the love for Axis with TEP.

What I don't get is why almost every Axis list has Obstructors in it. Besides upping them to POW 13 on Feat, what's the point?

>>49761562
They're cheap, they jam super well, and they're good at killing most other jam units.

And CMA makes them POW15 on the charge, which is enough to put a dent in even a heavy. And Reach means you can get quite a few in there.

>>49757574
..you realize the arty is like 1/5 th ecost, right? 3 points for a Canonneer, or even better, the catapult with AOE corrosion, are great.

Ferox are pretty good. There's not much in Skorne that plays advance with them, though, so they can be difficult to use well; Still, with all the cavalry changes, being able to do sideways and backwards charges and still get boosted attacks is pretty hardcore. They aren't murder-monsters like the Stormlances re, but they're not meant to be; They're personal assassins to problematic units usually kept in the back row of armies, and they work with Skorne's attrition flavor very nicely with the way they force hard choices for your opponent.. Plus, boosted Pow 12's kill, and they can get that off whether they charge or jump now, which is pretty great.

>>49759831
They still need certain casters to make them work.

Irusk1 and Kozkov are great with them because they can give them a 3" Repostion and push their ARM and/or damage up even higher.

They're still slow as shit otherwise. The kovnik helps a bit in the regard but they're still 2" slower than your other infantry.

>>49761695
Double Ferox in Mak2 is pretty good.

>>49761892
I'm a stubborn bastard. I persevered through MkII, so any boosts MkIII has in store for them are more than welcome.

I want to try to get back into WMH after getting pretty burned out late Mk2/early Mk3
How do I make this game interesting again?

I own a bunch of Khador and Circle, but I don't particularly want to buy any more stuff at the moment.

It's not that I dislike WMH, I just can't bring myself to actually want to play it.

>>49762519
Same here. I think currently it would help to just play WM vs. WM or HO vs. HO (while leaving WW and home). That way there's at least a semblance of balance.

>>49759761
Mortyspammer, actually, but fuck you for implying that there was anything wrong about Banes. Assblasted Cygnarfags whined and bitched to PP, who threw them the bone of the century and wrecked any pretense that their game is balanced.

>>49762688
You do realize that Cyngar had one of the best games against Cryx in Mk2, right?

They were the only faction that didn't give a fuck about Bane Spam.

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>>49762688
>implying Cryx was balanced
>implying Cygnar was balanced

The shoe is simply on the other foot now, there's no reason to be assblasted my friend. Cryx spent years in the light as a dominant faction, bastion of netlisters and powergamers, and were deservedly reviled as a result. The only people upset that Cryx isn't top tier anymore are Cryx players. People can at least sympathize with Skorne players getting the shaft, simply because they weren't Cryx players.

And funny enough, I've never even played Cygnar. Only Ret, Menoth, Circle, and Pigs

So if I had to use Stormguard (probably silverline), preferably with 3-5 jacks, what casters look ok? The rest of the army also.

>>49760145
>>49760163
Oh boy my nipples cut through t-shirt.

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>>49763291
>>49760407
>>49760163
Why does the horse have such a goofy grin?

>>49761695
>..you realize the arty is like 1/5 th ecost, right? 3 points for a Canonneer, or even better, the catapult with AOE corrosion, are great.
It's 5 points for the artillery and 17 for a Cannoneer. The artillery's problem is that if there's no small infantry on the table or if it makes bad deviations, it's completely useless. The Cannoneer is always good though, and can even mix it up in melee. Last game I played I had a Cannoneer punch a Menoth heavy to death under Xerxis1's feat. Shit was cash.

>Ferox are pretty good
It's 21 points for 5 guys who have a single attack of their own. Their entire gimmick is the leap ability, which really isn't that much. If we had easier access to Defender's Ward to make them into 15/19s then I'd maybe agree.
>Plus, boosted Pow 12's kill
No they don't, shut up. What do they kill exactly? You'll only put a couple of points on a heavy then die next turn. Small infantry die to a POW12 without boost, so what are you aiming to kill? Medium base infantry that your opponent maybe not have even brought?

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>Not painting front arcs in different colours for different model types
Solos are bone, warlocks are red, beasts are grey, infantry are ochre.

Now you have no excuse for losing to Skorne ;^)

>>49764977
Why would I do that? Less chance of my opponent making mistakes.

>>49764089
My little pony, my little pony...

>>49765107
I don't want to win because my opponent doesn't know what my shit is; I want to win because I played better. Are you one of those faggots who never paints their shit? Because you're the worst people to play against as I can't tell what a single thing is, then you get some cheap shot on me and win because of it. The only thing to take away from games like that is that you're a faggot who'll happily win through promotion of ignorance.

>>49764977
Looks kinda ugly, why would I waste my time doing this? Models are not that hard to i.d.

>>49763088
Nemo3 sounds like your man, electrical damage buffs are like crack to him. They make passable spark nodes and bodyblockers in his lists which dont often have points to spare for dedicated jam.

Mk3 made a lot of the lightning stuff synergise well, look into the firefly and storm strider. Of course the ever present storm lances and laddermore become even more bonkers with n3, but then youre looking at 20 for the lances, 8 for laddermore, at least 12 for a jr warcaster and 18 for a strider. Doesnt leave much left for a lot of heavy jacks, cygnar ones are still relatively expensive. I'm trying to make it work without the cav but I havent had an awful lot of practise with nemo in mk3 yet as I'm still having too much fun with venethrax.

>>49765151
You're the kind of asshole who sits down in front of an opponent at a tourney and asks them what the tactics of their army is, and try and do it off the clock, aren't you?

>>49765358
No. I wanna play the game not my opponent.

>>49764977
This always looks so terrible. I much prefer simple thin white lines.

>>49765107
>Less chance of my opponent making mistakes.
Not marking arcs don't so much lead to opponent mistakes as much as just stupid ambiguous arguments about facing. There's no guarantee things end up in your favor and that's the kind of shit I do not want to deal with in the first place.

http://conflictchamber.com/#b91b4b6r4ycu5Vfs676a6v

Skorne Army - 75 / 75 points

(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Agonizer [7]
- Cyclops Brute [8]
- Mammoth [38]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Legends of Halaak [8]
Praetorian Ferox (max) [21]
Praetorian Karax (max) [11]
Extoller Soulward [3]

Haven't played ferox yet, giving them a try. My idea is that depending on the situation basically anything in the list gets huge benefit from d ward, whether it's 15/19 ferox or 17/17 legends, or an effective arm 24 mammoth. Legends will be chilling behind karax as a second wave , with tactician letting them charge through karax.

>>49765968
There are some schemes where I think shading the entire arc looks okay.

>>49766898
Why not just run the Cetrati brick? Effective 24ARM, the battle plans were basically designed to be put on them, and in Mk3 the Willbreaker can grant them tough.

>>49764089
If such a blazing hot bitch would be riding you would smile like that aswell i guess.
Oh boy the puns!

>>49767958
XD

>>49762688
>Cygnar
>bitching about Banez
suuure

>>49764089
That is one ugly horse.

So I want to expand my Menoth Caster a bit and I'm looking at Reznik1 and Vindictus.
However, with Reznik I'm not that sure what I should bring. His feat looks underwhelming too and I just can't see him getting kills to wrack people. I love his style but I don't really know what to do with him list and tactics wise.
Vindictus looks pretty interesting, but do I need zealots with him? Likewise, would I need Daughters with Thyra?

>>49767863
They're at best mediocre. Ferox actually reach the enemy lines.

At the new points level, would 50 point games by 100 points now?

>>49768490
>mk2 50 point games equivalent
75

I've been thinking about getting into Warmahordes and was debating making myself a Cryx army and my gf a Menoth army, starting with the intro kits for each faction.

Is this the best/most cost-effective mode of action? Is there something I should do instead? What's a decent starter-list for each faction that isn't ridiculously expensive so I'm not forced to stick with the hobby if I find I don't enjoy it?

>>49768598
Nope. That sounds like a good plan.

>>49750722
>Dubs
REVENANT STOCK IS ABOUT TO SKYROCKET

BUY BUY BUY BUY!

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>>49764333
>You'll only put a couple of points on a heavy then die next turn
>so what are you aiming to kill?

I think you've answered your own question there bud. Just because they're not heavy hunters doesn't mean that they don't have value for quickly responding to smaller threats (i.e. most other units: small infantry, solos, light beasts/jacks, or even putting pressure on warnouns)

>>49768754
Yeah I'll take a twenty one point unit to kill 4 point solos. Or I could take the 4 point void spirit.

They don't put pressure on heavy warnouns. Jesus christ are you stupid?

Are triple Gladiators worth it in a list?

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>>49768853
Are you? Cripes, you sound like a MkII Menite on the Reckoner or Errants.

Unless they're playing a heavy-spam, chances are they'll have some sort of targets to go after. You're not going to send them after one solo and call it a day. And yeah, they won't put pressure on heavy-warnouns, amazing. Unless you're brain-dead, I'm sure you can find another target for them on the field. Unless this guy's meta is entirely Butcher Heavy Spam or other faction equivalents, the Ferox will typically have something to do.

But I guess because Ferox are more complex than "Smash smaller rock with bigger rock", they're useless in a fight.

>>49769074
Yeah except they cost 21 fucking points to do a job that our regular infantry should be doing or our solos already do.

>>49769074
Mobility alone should cost a fucking premium. Every other calvary unit in the game can hit hard or do it at range. EXCEPT FEROX.

Ferox have brutal charge. So it's a boosted 14 if they charge like normal cav, which can become a 16 with stir the blood, and pow 16 is standard heavy cav pow. They just also have the option of jumping to get at stuff behind the line. Skorne just needs more ways to buff their damage.

Also, they have CMA with two initials. That should mean that when they jump you can have them sacrifice their pow 12 spears on 4 of them to make the pounce attack pow 14, yeah?

Model A CMAs, model B joins with its spear, then model A takes its pow 12 swing. Then B uses Cs spear, C uses Ds, D uses Es, and E just has a pow 12 pounce. So ferox are normally getting at least a boosted 14 if they charge or jump.

The main use I can think of for Ferox is landing them smack bang in the middle of a unit. The unit basically wouldn't be able to move, and guns/nouns would struggle to get in to clear them out. So this means you want to pack infantry tightly against Ferox, but this means your Cannoneers now blow them apart in one shot, so your opponent is caught between a rock and a hard place. But man they cost so many points. If they were like 18/19 that'd be real nice.

>>49768598
Make sure you're getting mk3 starters, they come with better accessories and in some cases better model selection.

The two-player boxes are incredible value if you like the factions in them. On the warmachine side that's Cryx and Cygnar, and amounts to about $10 for a full unit of Bane Thralls and Stormguard (which are both a bit meh right now but this is the edition of regular balance errata so I think it's reasonable to see adjustments)

If the gf can get on board with electrifying people rather than burning them then it's the way to go. But the normal battleboxes are still excellent so go with the factions you like.

>>49769438
So we have to abandon their special rules and use abilities to get them up to standard? Wowee sure is worth that 21 points. I'm sure glad stormlances are able to that with no buffs and kill more shit at the same time. Hip Hip hooray.

>>49769698
It's not abandoning their special rules. There is a time and place to jump but sometimes just a charge is better. Keep in mind that the charge is more accurate than jumping into the back arc because a charge is boosted attack roll while back arc is +2.

>>49769789
And they they hit like wet tissue paper and I sit there wondering why I took a 21 point unit to kill 13-16 point infantry when I could take two PGMT for 8 and do the same shit.

Ferox are too expensive for what they are capable of.

>>49752945
They got Gang instead which is arguably better.

>>49769825
Boosted 14 aren't wet tissue paper. They also have native pathfinder and steady, when skorne can easily give a unit tough. How many othere heavy cav have pathfinder? Vengers do if they took damage from the enemy the previous round, if they didn't they have the same pow as ferox. Uhlans get it I'd they charge but not when running.

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>>49764089
ARE YOU READY GUYS???
PUT YA GUNS ON!

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>>49768425
No (You)'s for Menoth?
Also another question: How are Deliverers? They look like a fun source of fire under Feora2's Firestarter and you could combine them to shoot one POW 18 rocket

>>49770053
It would be if firestarter wasn't BG only

>>49769910
Yes but then your ignoring jump special rule which is why they are 21 points.

If I have to ignore the special rule that makes them unique and fun to have them start matching other cav its stupid.

>>49770178
No I'm not.

They have CMA. You can CMA pounce attacks with the spears to make the bites pow 14.

>>49770151
Oh damn, so it has to be a Redeemer. What about Delivers with Sevvy1? Aiming+Eye of Menoth makes them RAT 4 or RAT 6 if two combine their attacks.

>>49770217
Ok sweet I get up to pow 14 to do no damage to heavies and over kill on infantry while giving up attacks I could use to kill more infantry.

Ferox are mediocre and over costed.

Its ok Soles you can admit you fucked up with Skorne models.

>>49768425
>Reznik1

Wracking is just a bonus, so don't worry about it too much. His money abilities and brand of heresy and engine of destruction. He's designed to make himself and his battle group incredibly scary and kill anything they can reach, often for assassination. His feat plays into this, against WM it's an assassination feat used to strip enemy warcaster defenses, whereas against hordes it just generally fucks the warlock over completely in the following turn.

Generally you want to favor taking him with jacks with a lot of initial attacks (or something like Thresher on Scourge). Also ranged jacks in particular can help offset the somewhat predictable threat range of Reznick himself. So Redeemers are great with him for example. He also really likes an arc node for flexibility in applying Brand. Aside from that you probably want to consider a Shield guar and Vassals to help his focus 6 with the jacks. You can probably figure out what to do with any points you have leftover.

>>49770053
>Allow me to engage my autism
>Deliverers
Deliverers are horrific, Firestarter is Battlegroup only.
>Menoth
Is a god, Protectorate is the name of the faction

>>49770410
5 boosted 14s will do 32 damage to an arm 18.

>>49770855
for 21 points you just killed a 10 point heavy. Great wonderful. Then they die to the one of the other 4 10 point heavies.

>>49770946
You're right, why bother taking anything? A gladiator will die to 4 10 point heavies. Cetrati will die to 4 10 point heavies. A mammoth will die to 4 10 point heavies. Why bring models?

>>49770596
Hm, if Reznik is another assassination caster, what's a good scenario caster. My group is pretty casual, so it does not have to be a super viable tournament caster.
What about Vindictus? Can he do a good job at scenario play? Does he need the Zealots?

I currently only have a temple flameguard with UA, a reckoner and a crusader/castigator plus almost all light jacks. I'm ready to buy another cool unit (probably Idrians, I know they're super good, but I just don't like their aesthetic). I kind of want a ranged unit, but cleanser are rather short ranged, deliverers apparently suck really bad and that only leaves errants and idrians I guess?

>>49770946
Stormclad. Arm 18, 30 boxes. A buckler that jumping rear attacks ignore. 18 points, not 10.

>>49771016
My what a stupid shit you are.

What I said was that you invest 21 points into a unit only to have it killed a 10 point heavy. Then get killed by a 10 point heavy of which are there are even more of on the field.

I don't know how you could have misread that. I am sorry you're so stupid you can't read.
I should have figured that anyone trying to say ferox aren't overcosted and poorly designed can't read.

Barber took away what little brains you had left along with your hair Soles?

>>49771075
Which 10 point heavy will kill 5 ferox?

>>49771036
>Jumping.
Yeah those pow 12 do a whole lot. What about those twelve point juggernauts? 10 point beserkers?

>>49771097
Anyone with reach and more than two initials.
Even if it doesn't kill all of them it cripples the unit. 1-2 ferox left after killing cheap heavies?

Ferox are over costed and poorly designed.

How is this for a 75 point list?


75/75

Mordikaar 1
- Despoiler
- Aradus Soldier
- Titan Canoneer
- Titan Gladiator
- Titan Gladiator
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min)
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor
Void Spirit
Void Spirit
Extoller Soulward
Extoller Soulward

>>49771173
Which 10 point jack has reach?

With CMA the bite attacks are pow 14.

Ferox have reposition so they're not all clumped up waiting for some rng1 heavy to kill all of them. At best it's going to get range to 2 of them and that's if you position them badly. Most likely the crusader or whatever is going to charge 1 and be done.

10 point or less heavies: Crusader, Slayer, Marauder, Berserker, Mad Dog, Modulator. Am I missing anything? Most of those need 7s or even 8s to hit a ferox, are slow, and they all have 1 inch range. Slayers are a bigger threat because of mat 7 and speed 6, but still 1 inch range.

Like. It's simple geometry. Two models with reposition 3 move away from each other. There's 6 inches between them. A heavy with 1 inch melee walks into the gap between them. Its base covers 2 inches, and its melee range covers another inch, letting it cover 4 inches of that 6 inch gap. So it can't do it. If a heavy goes into one of those ferox and you positioned them with half a brain it's impossible for range 1 to hit more than 1 of them. If the jack has reach it might get 2 depending on the angle, but if it charges and has to face directly towards one it probably won't get it. Plus with native pathfinder that reposition move can be through rough terrain.

>>49771030
I don't really play him, but I'm suspicious of such an Infantry based caster in Mk3. Any of the support based casters should serve your purposes.

>>49771536
Ugh, damn, right, his feat only affects units.
What about Sevvy1 or 2 then?

>>49771570
Sure

>>49771580
Okay, so no advice on him? I'm fairly new to WM/H, but if I want answer, do I need to whine about Skorne in my posts, too, because there seemingly is nothing else?

>>49768001
fuck off

>>49771874
Severius2 is in my opinion better for scenario or objective play, since both oracular vision and his feat ar amazing for holding positions, but if you're new and your group casual, you might wanna go with Severius1 instead, he's far less likely to completely shut down amateurs and turn them off the game while still being solid at what he does, with a fairly nasty feat.

>>49772309
Thanks mate.
What are the other scenario casters in menoth? Testament1 and 2?
And do I need definitely need the specific units the casters buff for Thyra, Kreoss2 and 3 and some others?

>>49771957
You he did actually like my joke, so fuck off yourself.

>>49772384
Never played Reclaimer 1, and very little of Reclaimer 2, but I played him more as an assassination 'caster, especially on feat turn. Incorporeal for your entire army, if you play your cards right, can end a game right then and there.

For Kreoss 3 at least I'd always recommend running at least one blob of Vengers, his Elite Cadre really makes them worth taking, despite their high point cost. As for Thyra, I never liked Daughters, they play a lot like Kayazy, meaning you have to carefully maneuver them around the board and constantly measure every possible sightline and threat range, because once something gets a clear charge or large enough blast template on them, they're toast. If you like micromanagement though, go for it.

Has anyone ever tried taking all of their factions Character Heavy Warbeasts or Heavy Warjacks in a single Battlegroup?

If so, how did it go?

>>49772856
But there's literally no use for Ace.

>>49769199
Hey man bane riders are more awful.

>>49772885

Ace is a light warjack isn't it?

They were asking for Heavies.

>>49773117
That's what I mean. I'd want to include Ace in something like that.

>>49771016
Calvary are for taking out infantry, so you take calvary for taking out fucking infantry, not hard targets like heavy jacks. With spd 8 and jump your supposed to run around the flanks, and jump over obstacles, to get to the squishy center, not though the armored wall they set in front to protect their squishy center.

You got to be fucking stupid to take cavalry for jack killing.

There any utility in running Ferox for Dark Rituals with Rasheth?

>>49773382
I was actually planning to use Rhadeim for that instead of ferox.

>>49773428

Cataphracti were my first choice, but now Rhadeim, Ferox, Void Spirits and Feral Geists are.

hey guys i've been delving in and out of wither start this as a small hobby. In my spare time I had been learning the game when it was in mark 2 and gotten a mark2 battlebox which was on sale at the time along with a few other bits at the only gaming store that stocks them around my area, nothing super expensive but reasonable.

the battlebox I had picked up was the Menoth one and recently I dropped in to have another look around the store and saw the new battlebox which was also on sale. What do you guys think?

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Does anyone have experience with recasts? I have seen decent 40K ones, but I am not sure how WarmaHordes recasts turn out.

>>49773653
The figs in your Mk2 Battlebox are still great. The Mk3 one has a new caster and comes with a paper copy of the free rules and a few other things but it's not essential.

Now is a great time to start though. Just pick up the Protectorate 2016 Card Deck and you should be ready to go.

>>49773292
>Calvary are for taking out infantry
And Ferox are shit at it compared to what other factions can bring to the table.
>jump over obstacles
It's worth noting here that the jump ability says completely within 5", which does not leave much room for anything at all. Your opponent can very easily space their shit so you can't leap over them at all, especially considering your own base is 2" across.

>>49773292
And why would I do that when I can take 2 pgmt and 2 void spirits for 5 points cheaper that do that job way better.

Ferox are over costed and poorly designed.

>>49774182
Quoted for truth.

>>49774191
>Taking Void Spirits outside of Mordikaar
Bruh. Just take a max Nihilators, they still do the same fucking shit they did in Mk2. At 13/13 base they love some Defender's Ward too. And don't forget the best solo in Skorne for killing infantry, Orin Midwinter

>>49774237
Also, Stir the Blood is pretty fucking hench on Nihilators. PS14+3d6 at MAT7 on the charge is pretty nasty on just about any target. Throw in the feat and you're actually smashing assholes wide open. Like damn son that's 28 damage on average. Even a Khador jack would flinch at that.

>>49764089
LOOK AM MY HORSE, MY HORSE IS AMAZING!

>>49774237
Yeah so they get shot to death even through def ward. Great idea.

Void spirits are one if the few actually good models in skorne. They can murder solos. Harass warcasters. And hold zones while incorporeal

>>49774310
Your infantry that aren't Karachi will never see the enemy lines when you play khador.

>>49774046
Will do thanks bud

>>49774391
Be sure to download a free copy of the new rules. Link is in the OP.

>>49774364
>They can murder solos
You'd be surprised at how well the Raider fills this role. Just sit it on a flank with tricky solos on it and watch your opponent shit himself. Then afterwards it can supplement the ranged damage of your Cannoneer.

>Your infantry that aren't Karachi will never see the enemy lines when you play khador.
If blast damage magically wiped infantry off the table, Skorne wouldn't have so much trouble with it. The beauty of Nihilators has always been that the entire unit doesn't NEED to survive in order for them to do their job, because they're designed to kill multiple things each. I assume you, I was not suggesting Nihilators as a counter to Behemoth. But then again, Karax aren't gonna fucking do jack shit against the average Khador list either because they're gonna be running Pikemen, the strictly better Karax.

>>49774428
For 5 months points and you have to boost and animus so its more fury to manage

>>49774479
Have to agree with this guy, 2 void spirits is a point less than 1 raider and they don't need fury.

>>49774497
Look man I bought a Raider in Mk2 and I just really really want to justify it somehow in Mk3.

God my phone hates skorne (as it would have it: SKANK) names.

>>49774667
My phone actually recognises Skorne.

>>49774647
Raiders really need multiple attacks for their shitty rat. If they had 1d3+1 attacks instead of the useless-ass burst fire rule, they'd be good. Instead, they're just all right, able to put one decently powerful shot downrange a decent distance.

>>49774852
1d3+1 is pretty fucking extreme. Popping 2 solos then 2 infantry a turn is silly, even at 9 points. 1d3 would be fair, but Skorne don't know how to reload a gun. Just look at the Mammoth, it doesn't reload to take 4 shots, it just brings 4 guns.

>>49774237

Void Spirits have some utility with Hexeris and Rasheth too don't they?

In Rasheth's case, can't you do Dark Rituals through them without it causing damage to them due to Incorporeal?

Doesn't Hexeris also allow them to do some movement shenanigans?

>>49774937
>Doesn't Hexeris also allow them to do some movement shenanigans?
Neither Hexxy has anything relating to moving shit around besides his weapon having beatback. Dark Ritual explicitly deals magical damage to the model, but it's only a d3 so won't kill a solo anyway. They don't really synergise with much. MAT bonuses do little because they're 6+3d6 to hit on living.

>>49774852
There's nothing wrong with burst fire. It's great on the Cryx Leviathan for example.

>>49775084
>There's nothing wrong with burst fire. It's great on the Cryx Leviathan for example.

>Leviathan
ROF = d3
POW = 13
RNG = 13

>Raider
ROG = 1
POW = 12
RNG = 10(14 if you spend fury)

Yeah no shit it's great on the Leviathan; the Leviathan is a solid shooting model.

>>49774852
Raiders compare pretty well to the Nephilum Bolt Thrower.

>>49774647
I don't play Skorne, but I have a hard time believing a beast with a snipe Animus is bad.

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>>49775172
>I have a hard time believing a beast with a snipe Animus is bad

>>49774915
The raider's gun is a slightly scaled down version of the flayer cannon artillery piece used by venators and the animantarax, which are high ROF weapons.

>>49775084
Yes, burst fire is fine on a d3 rof heavy, or on a d3+1 battle engine or artillery piece.

>>49775214
My point is that the problem seems more to do with the Skorne warlocks than the Raider itself.

>>49775266
Skorne has bad beasts and warlocks that don't support beasts. Instead we have warlocks that support infantry (though not actually increasing their damage except for the xerxises) but still bad infantry.

>>49775290
Our warlocks don't support SHIT. Naaresh? Blur? Is that the best we can do? The only reason I play Naaresh is because he's a fucking guard dog on a flag. Mordikaar? He has NOTHING for his army. His feat was just trodden into the dirt with the titan DEF nerf too. We have 2 ARM buffs in the entire faction (Xerxis1, Zaal1), 1 damage buff for beasts (Morg1) and 1 damage buff for infantry (Xerxis1). So many warlocks that have 3 spells, one of which is a shitty single target nuke, then no useful abilities. Morg1 is one of our better warlocks. Why? Because he has a relevant damage buff and a feat that prevents enemy heavies from doing anything on the backswing. He himself is supposed to be a fucking ninja that can murder infantry, but you'll never use him for that.

There's fuck all relevant support for anything in Skorne warlocks.

In fact, you know which warlock we have that does the most for increasing the damage output of our beasts?

After Morghoul1, one of the only competently designed warlocks we have which can abuse 1 or 2 a turn, we have Zaadesh1. Tag Team is the best spell in Skorne and it's on a lesser warlock.

>>49775357
You forgot Last Stand, and Ignite. There's a couple of things that buff infantry damage, just not much. Then we have the two debuff warlocks and those are alright.

>>49775069

>Dark Ritual explicitly deals magical damage to the model

There are people misinformed then as I keep hearing that it doesn't count as magical damage when you arc a spell through it.

>>49775464
Because in mk2 it wasn't. In mk3 it is.

>>49775464
It was a small but subtle change from mk2.

In mk2 it used to not damage incorporeal models.

In mk3 it is magic damage and hurts them.

I'm kinda looking forward to zaadesh2 but at the same time I'm not sure about a warlock that can't use zaadesh1.

>>49772591
Nah, daughters are great. They're cheap and dangerous, you throw them at the opponent and pressure them out of scenario.

>>49776040
You just have to hope that they'll keep the flavor of tag team and give him a good battlegroup wide warbeast buff. There's plenty to choose from.

>>49776279
You would hope that but they've done that with 0 of the epic journeymen so

Like malakov2 couldn't be more different from malakov1

>>49776339
>Like malakov2 couldn't be more different from malakov1

What's so different about them? Malakov1 has a hand cannon, a mediocre stat line, Sucker, Razor Wind, and Redline. Malakov2 has all of that as well except he traded out Redline for Escort in addition to getting a bunch of new stuff since he went full caster.

>>49776952
Malakov1 is good
Malakov2 is shit

>>49777010
He's easily the worst of the Journeyman 2s though.

>>49777050
I think his main attraction is that he's likely one of the hardest casters in the game to kill.

>>49777010
>Malakov2 is shit

Once again, /tg/ proves itself bad at Warmachine.

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Troll bros check in

Someone convince me that the Glacial King is ever worth taking over the MK.

Hard Edition: The MK animus actually gets used

Nightmare Edition: Gunnbjorn and pGrim are still better with the MK

What's up my Skorne brothers? Me, I'm lovin' the feel of being atop the power rankings.

>>49777282
GK is pretty legit with Gunnbjorn - Snipe on that knockback gun is good.

Other than that, I don't see it. MK too stronk

>>49777282
Really solid anchor for Grim 2 or Gunnbjorn.

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>>49777303
>>49777635

I don't see it and I've played eGrim/Gunny with both. The problems are;

>MK spray ignores concealment/cover
>Higher POW on the gun
>Spray 10 hits a hella lot of guys
>Killshot
>Rage Animus. GK Animus is worthless. MK gives you an animus you can toss on your other beasts for output
>MK often doesn't Fury out unless going in on a heavy. GK means you WILL be full up on him every turn
>Whelps


Literally the only thing the GK has going for it is if you take it with a Snipe caster, it has good range. Still needs help hitting, still has to buy shots.

I wish he was better...

>>49777725
You are taking it for concealment bubble and freezing ground or the freezing fist.

Gunlines like Gunnbjorn and Grim needs/likes to delay the opponent and Glacier king will do that fine.

>>49775266
I donno, I wouldn't call it terrible, but you can easy end up burning a lot of fury for just one mediocre shot. That's great when you have juicy targets in sight, no so much when it's an arm 18-20 jack.

Soooo, anyone uploaded NQ 67 and 68 yet?

>>49773492
>Void Spirits and Feral Geists
That doesn't work though.

>>49779063

Why not?

>>49775464
>>49775506
Dark RItuals also requires "living".

Is the RoS starter box worthwhile? I got the starter for them in Mk.II, but didn't get a chance to expand much, I can use the heavy jack to make discordia, but donno if the new starter caster is any good and if the other 2 lights are worthwhile enough to double down on again. Kinda disappointed that the only thing new in the box is just the caster.

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>>49779957
I can't speak for the new caster, but the new starter-boxes are very good value for what you pay for (now comes with a diet rulebook, diet faction book, tokens for focus and such, as well as the play mat).

The 'jacks themselves are included because, well, they're Ret staples. The Griffon is our tarpit light, the other can be built as a Chimera or Gorgon (and there's only one other light to choose from that isn't a character), and the Manticore is Ret's jack-of-all-trades heavy. Throwing a Phoenix in there wouldn't be fair against other battleboxes, and most of the others are a bit fiddly to play with properly.

>>49779957
She's a beast. Probably top 5 in faction 'caster.

Not quite ragnor grade but for a starter box she's well up there!

>>49780084

Agreed, Helynna is solid.

>>49780044
Yea, all the extra's in the box make for a great value, just wasn't sure if doubling up on all the starter jacks was worth while. I'd have like 5 cyclopes savages if I didn't try to convert some of them.

>>49780084
>>49780213
Awesome, so the caster is worth while. Did the sculpt come out well too? I feel the skonre starter caster, while not bad, would gain a lot from a metal or resin cast. So much detail just didn't seem to come out that sharply on it.

>>49780435
>I'd have like 5 cyclopes savages if I didn't try to convert some of them.
But Anon wouldn't you rather have the Savages for Naaresh's feat turn? ;^)

Noobie here. I'm interested in trying this game. Unfortunately, I can't for the life of me choose a faction to start with. Players at my LGS told me to pick a faction and get a battlebox to start with and just pick the one I think looks coolest.

Currently, I'm torn between cryx and legion of everblight. Are either of those factions good for noobs to learn with? If not, which ones are?

>>49781077
All factions are noob friendly, just pick whatever.

>>49775214
The rider is maybe just a point overcosted, but he gives you a RNG 14" POW 14 gun against heavy, on a light, is pretty good.

>>49781113
I think I'm gonna go cryx. Their warjacks look like chickens and they look cute.

>>49781211
I'd much sooner just bring a Cannoneer though. Sure it's 17 points, but it's more damage to a heavy, a big template to dump on infantry, and actually decent melee potential.

newb here
how does this look for a first time list?

Vladimir, The Dark Prince
Behemoth
War dog
Assault Kommandos (Leader and 5 Grunts)
1 Assault Kommando Flame Thrower
Doom Reavers (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Greylord Escort
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 2 Grunts)
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts)
Winter Guard Rifle Corps (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich

Total: 50 points

Iron fangs hold the frontline, the men o war escort the doom reavers, the winter guard and widowmakers hold back behind the pikemen.
The assault commandoes go along with behemoth for fire support, also the ‘khador hand grenade’ idea i’ve heard about is too funny not to include.

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To the Anons who thought that different colours front arcs look bad, are you triggered? ;^)

>>49781461
I am triggered by your glossy finish.

>>49777117
No, he's actually shit.
He's the ultimate situational caster, but you need to engineer the situations for him and the investment in doing them is probably not worth it.

His best trick is additional dice on Backstab and Irusk can do that without even needing to have your models get into back arcs and Zerkova1 does a better cloud wall.

>>49781461
No. I just think the bases look bad. But there are lots of bad looking minis out there, so that's nothing new.

>>49773653
I'm this guy from yesterday, This anon >>49774420 was kind enough to lend me good advice so I'm likely gonna order up a deck after I spend time studying the new rules.

But in relation to my original question, while the new battle box for Menoth is on sale would 36 euros be worth basicly for the new menoth castor and the heavy jack in it?

My one /tg/ gamer mate told me about all in one boxes, any hint of them re-appearing soon? I've like a ton of questions but I don't want to joke you all with them.

>>49781931
The new battle boxes are worth it from a value point alone even though im not too fond of what jacks come with Malekus. As far as the all in one box. Those are technically mk2 boxes. Though they do come with a great amount of minis for the cost. The only problem is im not sure if the points add up correctly anymore and if everything in it is "viable" if you care about that.

>>49781978
Well its mostly for fun that I'd like to play. The local meta don't seem to be the most mature bunch if im going on how my mate described it. But I would def enjoy just playing against him. Why what puts you off Malekus's jacks?

>>49782089
Different guy, but I'm hating on the Repenter this edition, the loss of the choir buff to hit and remaining otherwise the same while getting a little bit more expensive really kills it for me. The Castigator, while cheap, just isn't good outside of Amon. If you want an arc node the Guardian is just five more points than the Revenger, and his new character jack that he can channel through is dropping in January.

>>49782177
fellow Protectorate anon here, agree completely. Rat 5 makes the Repenter very sad.

>>49782177
Not to mention the swarms of infantry present in mk2 don't see the table in mk3, so it has no real role.

>>49782177
>Repenter
Really thats a shame cause I kind of figured I'd favor him cause of his flame thrower. I didn't know the Castigator was an arc node, he looked like a more flamey crusader. So I would have an odd duck army if I played both battleboxes worth of jacks which is like 4 light jacks and 2 heavies. I'll be reading into the rules later so for now if it seems like I'm throwing darts randomly in regards to units and jacks its cause I am. How do Menoths jacks work? Like my understanding is menoth as a faction works like every unit is a part that makes up a clock/gun.

>>49782351
>Menoth
no such faction exists -- Protectorate is what you are after

>>49782427
Yes, the Protectorate of Menoth.

You be to find something better to do than correct people on the Internet over colloquialisms.

Also, Malakov 2 isn't shit. But he's not going to be taking list slots away from Butcher 1/3, Irusk 2, Sorscha 1, Vlad (any), or any of the jack spam casters.

>>49782578
SKREEONK

>>49782351
The castigator isnt the arc node the revenger is.

As far as our jacks go, we are pretty low rat and decent mat and decent pow. However we have an almost auto include support call the choir who gives our jacks +2 to damage. So yes, you are on point with the gun analogy. We have some decent to crap stuff but working together we are pretty strong.

So how long until Privateer Press releases Immortals based on the Cataphracts?

>>49783215
What would they be? High ARM, high damage, high MAT, RNG 2?

>>49783265

Sure, with Magical Weapon and Weapon Master.

Or maybe somewhere midway between Immortals and the Ancestral Guardians?

>>49783394
I was only joking. Medium base immortals would just be Cetrati.

>>49773678
The recaster who offers those has a rather good quality, I can recommend him.

I'm sure this gets asked a lot. but what faction should i start out with/avoid if I'm new to wargames in general? Should i just go with aesthetics for now?

>>49784739
Yes, I don't think any faction is particularly punishing to new wargamers.

>>49784739
Just go with what looks cool. If you care about gameplay, read the general overview of the factions and pick the one that sounds like it's up your alley.

Faction choice is a bit mutable, and warcaster choice has just as much effect on how a list plays

>>49784780
Thank you good anon. Any faction recommendations for someone that favors melee?

>>49782747
cool thanks for the input on the jacks. Its a bit noticeable that they dont get talked much on these threads. How is POM against most factions?

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>>49784739
Most of the factions are fairly easy to get a hang of, particularly because 'difficulty' is largely determined by what sort of warnoun you choose to use (and every faction has multiple to pick from).

In terms of overall difficulty, Convergence is probably the most complicated (although it isn't rocket science either), and at least in MkII Retribution and Circle used to be a bit tricky to play as well.

>>49785082
>>49784739
A fair warning on convergence: They're kind of the red-headed stepchild of Warmachine, with very few choices in pretty much everything compared to the rest, and their faction hasn't received a new model in years.

They do have some neat stuff and are fun to play, just think twice about starting with them.

>>49781364
50pts, only one expensive jack, tons and tons of infantry to paint. You might regret that.

>>49781461
Nope, but it looks like the circus has come to town. Seriously, if you like, that's cool, it just looks meh to me.

>>49781931
All-in-one boxes were pretty sweet, but came pretty late, my guess is to push more sales. With the new edition, I doubt we'll see them for a while, unless sales slump badly.

>>49785082
Guide to mk3 ret: Did you bring enough dawnguard? No, you didn't. Bring more dawnguard.

>>49785453
I honestly have to ask, are Houseguard of any use anymore? I haven't played since MkII, and while I have always wanted an excuse to field more Dawnguard (particularly Invictors), I've got quite a few Houseguard that I'd like to see fielded as well.

what ever happened to skreeonk anon?

dead thread;dead game?

>>49786222
Who cares about unfunny, reddit-tier comics?

>>49784852
I'm still a bit new to the game, but I have a bit of experience on the Warmachine side.

On the 'jack side, you have Comrade Khador and the PoMeranians. Khador jacks can WRECK anything in melee range, and are good at taking a beating in exchange. The downside is that they are rather slow, encouraging constant speed boosting or covering fire to get to the front line in one piece. The infantry can help in that it gets around the board fast, playing a sort of blitzkreig style to soften up the enemy for the jacks.

PoM's melee game can come from either jacks or infantry, but not quite by themselves; PoM requires that the whole team be able to pull its weight if they want to make any impact on the game, moreso than any other jack faction. On top of that, most infantry in PoM either carrys Weapon Master (the Exemplarsor is made up of an absurdly large group of average joes, encouraging victory through numbers. The jacks, meanwhile, have THE most support in the Iron Kingdoms, to the point where Choir of Menoth is an an auto-include in almost every PoM list.

>>49785027
We have pretty solid game against most factions and with are good chunk of warcasters who are considered viable we can have an answer to most lists.

All in all we are in a really good, solid spot in ranking for mk3. Are there any factions who know you would be going up against in your local meta?

>>49785027
PoM has always fallen into a "strong but not OP" category.
They took a few big nerfs in the mkiii transistion but are totally viable.

>>49787354
SPD4 is the downside to having 20ARM, MAT7, and PS19 on a 12 point model? The fuck is the excuse for Skorne then? Titans are 19ARM, MAT6, PS18 (we have to pay extra points to get it up to 18), and 14 points, with the same speed.

The Juggernaut is so much better than almost any warbeast, it's unreal. It's better than anything in Skorne.

>>49788092

Look, warbeasts are over-costed/warjacks are under-costed. It's just one of those things.

>>49788218
>The game being blatantly imbalanced is "just one of those things"

>>49788230

You wish that was the problem. The problem is that Warmachine is internally balanced, and Hordes is internally balanced. If it was just warnouns Skorne wouldn't be this deep in the shit.

>>49788092
Well the Gladiator Titans also have four fury, three initials and Grand Slam. They're more comparable to jacks than most other beasts, like the Rhinodon. Gladiators are pretty decent for their cost.

>>49788445
I dunno, Khador's free charges fucking everywhere in the faction makes up for that extra point of fury pretty fast.

>>49788445

They're pretty decent warbeasts for their cost.

>>49788538
Well a Juggernaut and Gladiator on average rolls kill each other, but the Gladiator needs support to do it. It's just that the Gladiator is about as high on the value scale as a warbeast actually gets, and even then it gets splattered by a Juggernaut.

>>49788383
They're balanced separately; mash them together and they're imbalanced. That's why I will never agree whenever some dingus claims they were always meant to be the same game.

>>49788806
I'm glad you don't agree, but you're straight up wrong.

Hordes was only created to justify Skorne being introduced, since they wanted to release them as a Warmachine faction but couldn't fit them in.

>>49788806
But they WERE meant to be the same game, it's just that Skorne doesn't work as a Warmachine faction because there's no machines. You can't really disagree with something that's actually true; you're just denying reality. The resource systems are just different flavours of solution to the same problem. Like nigger why would they make two systems that can be played against each other and use 99% of the same rules, and then not balance them against each other?

What's happened is that PP have massively overestimated the power of warbeasts, and overbuffed warjacks as a result.

The only warbeast I'd put ahead of the gladiator for point value is the mauler really. But having that one great beast doesn't save skorne.

I mean, at this point, I think we can cool the Skorne bitching. The devs have straight up said they're going to redo the entire faction, that's the win you were looking for.

>>49788896
>>49788918

I always thought the Skorne seemed like an Iron Kingdom more than a true Hordes faction.

I think their army book even says they control more territory than most Iron Kingdoms in Immoren combined do.

>>49789035
Unless they revert Skorne to mk1 stats I don't think they're capable of doing it right. If 3 years wasn't enough to make skorne viable in mk2, 3 more months isn't going to do it.

>>49789092
They are. They were going to be a Warmachine faction but they didn't fit, so Hordes was created for Skorne.

Does anyone have the new Caine book they can share?

>>49789123
Sure, let me get you a link.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/195686/Mark-of-Caine

>>49789098
Mk2 was marked by them doing very little to change the game.

And at the tail end of Mk2, Skorne was starting to look very, very good. They'd gotten some very powerful ranged options, and had several very good lists. They'd never gotten to the point of being able to ask questions, but they started to get their answers, and those answers were very nice.

>>49789098
>3 more months isn't going to do it
I dunno, they've been outed as complete fuckups now so I suspect they're actually going to put the effort in this time. They might even go too far in doing so, but hey, I wouldn't complain if my faction was rocketed up the tiers. It doesn't even take much.

>Improve warlock spell and ability quality
>Give infantry relevant abilities
>Give lights good animi, revert Krea changes
>Heavies are fine
>Solos are fine, maybe increase Master Tormentor SPD to 7

>>49789803
>Heavies are fine

>Rhinodon, Archidon, Sentinel exists

>>49790080

I thought the Sentinel was one of the better ones?

Or better than the Sentry at any rate.

>>49790295
A speed 3 short ranged gun that is only good against living models and has an aoe 3, when we have cannoneers for 1 point more

>>49790295
It lost a lot in the transition.

In Mk2, it was nice because you could snipe the gun, which meant it wasn't so hard for it to threaten something.

Now though, that SPD3 and low RNG means it really hurt to try and shoot anything wortwhile.

>>49790325
>>49790351

I assume it's effectiveness is also diminished by the fact Infantry aren't seeing as much play in MK3?

>>49790752
Na. It was more of an assassination piece before, as well as great for softening up heavy warbeasts.

It could certainly kill infantry, but Skorne never had an issue killing infantry in Mk2.

>>49790813

What do they have a problem killing now in MK3?

>>49790819
Skorne infantry can only kill other infantry, while everyone else's infantry can kill heavies. Like compare pow 13 speed 6 iron fangs to pow 12 speed 6 nihilators, or pow 13 speed 4 immortals. And khador has a dozen different ways to buff infantry damage while skorne has like one.

Skorne's real problem is in delivery though, everything gets shot to shit before it can get to the enemy.

So between the Throne of Everblight, Siege Animantarax and Wraith Engine, which has the greatest chance of defeating or putting the most damage or hurt on a Gargantuan or Colossal in a fight?

>>49791259
Vacuum or with caster buffs?

>>49791259
Siege Animantarax is a real monster desu. 4 P+S 18s, 2 P+S 11s, and d3+1 pow 15s. Wraith Engine just gets two P+S 17s, Throne gets 3 P+S 16s plus maybe some pow 12 sprays.

The SA can put more hurt on stuff than one of our heavies, but it's also got less boxes and isn't able to hide, so it's more likely to get shot off the table.

>>49791322

Both.

>>49791348

I've always been curious, why don't Battle Engines have more boxes than a Heavy?

Aren't a lot of them bigger than a Heavy of any type would be?

>>49790865

And no real way to increase infantry threat. Forgeguard are speed 4 but then there's Perfect Plan (and pow11 weaponmaster).

>>49791377
Yah but many of them aren't exactly solidly built.

Especially cygnar. Stormstrider is a ball on long legs. Smash one leg and down it goes, the volatile lightning globe will do the rest as it hits the ground hard. Honestly it should have an aoe lightning blast that stays in play for 2 rounds on death.
While a centurion is a walking tank with a riot shield, and is a smaller lower target profile.

Not too sure about all the other ones, but khador is in a similar boat. Kill the horse, carriage is fucked... vs tanky tank mctank

>>49791468
Sure, but then there's the siege animantarax, which is a gigantic armored dinosaur. It's far bigger than a titan but has less boxes.

And there's the siege crawler, which is literally a tank with legs.

Lets compare, as an example, arm buffs in Skorne (the counter-punch faction) with arm buffs in Cygnar (The shooting faction)

Skorne has: Death pact on 1 caster, D-Ward on 1 caster.

Cygnar has: Arcane Shield on 3 casters and a journeyman, Deceleration on 2 casters, Fail-Safe on 1 caster, Fortify on 1 caster.

So the faction that has the shooting also has the spells to protect their stuff from shooting. Skorne doesn't have a realistic way to survive being shot at, while Cygnar has multiple arm buffs or def buffs. And cygnar jacks are def 11 and 12, +3 def to a def 12 jack is pretty relevant but +3 def to a def 10 warbeast isn't.

>>49791688

Paralytic Aura spackled over a lot of cracks in the design.

The mind boggles at the Krea-nerf. If you sat down with the specific goal of ruining a faction quickly and efficiently at a critical point in Warmachine/Hordes history, you couldn't do a better job.

If Skorne anons care, the Krea is getting its old animus back.

>>49791853

It would pretty much make the Quarter, anon.

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>>49791529
>then there's the siege animantarax, which is a gigantic armored dinosaur.

I wonder why they didn't mount a Canon on it. It looks like it could support one.

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>>49791881
>>49791853

>unironically, though

>>49792161
What?

>>49792161

Technically they did. I always thought the animantarax was a good design; take that howdah and mount a Flayer Cannon with as many ammo-cones as will fit in the damned thing- great idea.

>>49791853

For real? Where is this info coming from?

I mean, I don't hate it but I was expecting a little more nuance to the changes.

I assume she is going back down to the 2" aura as well.

I honestly don't know if that is the change Skorne really needs. Considering the Krea and the Agonizer are now both 7 points, I guess you have to choose 1 or the other.

I guess it's just 1 change so far. Lets see how this goes. Hold on to your butts.

>>49792539
No, it's a good change. The old animus gave them a lot of resistance to ranged, which they sorely need right now.

>>49792539

Isn't the Krea marginally more useful to a Skorne army list in general than the Agonizer given it's Animus offers range resistance?

Something even the Agonizer can benefit from given it's not that durable and can be neutralized at range before it's even had a chance to use it's abilities to their fullest?

>>49792590

I am not really arguing that it's "bad."

I just don't know if it just either make Agonizer obsolete now or is going to force us to make MORE room for support but having both.

Me, personally, I kind of think Skorne needs more unit buffs and less support buffs. I.E. if Elephants got +1 arm all around or if the Sentry got +1 P+S. Stuff like that.

For all I know though, all of that may come to pass. So it's wait and see time.

>>49792616

Agonizer is still pretty legit though.

On top of having a 8" -2 Str debuff, he can also prevents spellcasting in that area and has Repulse which are both situational but really important when that situation comes up.

So, it may be one of those things where Skorne now wants to run both.

I mean, MK2 Skorne elephants had +2 Def before AND the old Paralytic Aura and they were still considered way underpowered. So, to my mind, that says it's not Paralytic Aura as much as some of the models themselves that are holding Skorne back.

Is the only way to get the stat cards for the gencon exclusive warcasters through War Room 2? I'd really prefer to have a physical card, not fiddle around with a shitty app.

>>49792753
They should've come with a card.

>>49792805
What I mean is, I've recently started the game and would like to know how does Elara 2 play, but it seems I am shit out of luck as the limited edition crap isn't up for purchase anywhere and I'm not very keen on shelling out for War Room 2 DLC just for one warcaster. Already got the faction deck so the app is pointless to me.

>>49792850
They will all be released alongside their command books, so it won't be too much longer for the general release. Otherwise, not much you can do in the meantime. I bought the app so I wouldn't have that problem for all of mk3. It's gonna have the new themes as well without having to buy the books too.

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I'm going to be participating in a 35 pt 2v2 tourney at my FLGS anyone have any suggestions on what to include in my denny2 list.

so far I'm thinking of including nightmare, a deathripper, and some satyxis gunslingers in my list, I'm thinking of throwing in a harrower or another slayer. but I'm not sure what units to include, or if I should throw in a warwitch siren.

>>49792982
When are the theme lists coming out, anyway?

>>49793063
Apparently Command books are first. Trolls I think are December, Protectorate is Jan, Cygnar Feb probably. Not sure when the actual theme books will release. Besides the themes in NQ, which are probably just previews of the books

>>49793063
When the Command books start releasing - and they aren't all releasing at the same time, aren't all gonna be the same size, not all factions will get the same amount of sub books and theme forces are only being released with the release of the book or in some cases No Quarter (like Kingmaker).

So for example, Cygnar, Menoth and Trolls will each get their books in the Nov-Dec area. They'll get new units, new solos, new jacks, new casters and access to theme lists. Someone like Retribution is gonna have to wait until the spring.

>>49793063
The soonest theme lists might actually be Mercs, Minions, and CoC. Since they're not getting command books, their lists will be in the NQs.

What's the startup cost?
I'm trying to decide between this and Malifaux. I have a local community for both games

>>49793573
Initial cost is pretty low. Battle Box gets you enough to do learning games, and if you go budget, you can usually get a 50 point army for around 200 or even less.

Real cost generally only comes in when you start trying to play competitively, as it requires two 75 point lists.

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>>49793573
Startup cost is about $35-40 for a singleplayer starter, or $90 if you'd like to start with a friend (or extra miniatures. The 2-player box costs as much as it would for a single-starter+one box of infantry, and you get that 2x over plus everything required to play). While there is no upper limit to how much you could end up spending on Warmahordes, it is very easy to get started, and you can easily get onto the train for under $100 and actually accomplish something with it.

>>49785804
Halberdiers can have enormous threat range with the right support, they're quite good. For Riflemen the main advantage over Invictors is anti-stealth.

>>49788918
I wouldn't say massively. Beasts were much, much better than Jacks in Mk2.

>>49793001
>denny2
Why? Denny 1 and 3 are amazing. 2 is terrible.

>>49792673
>So, it may be one of those things where Skorne now wants to run both.
DID SOMEBODY SAY

SUPPORT BLOAT!?

>>49794273
>Beasts were much, much better than Jacks in Mk2
You mean infantry was much better than Jacks.

>>49794520
Both were

>>49788896
>>49788918
>says Skorne was meant for WM
>Skorne couldn't fit in WM, so Hordes was made for Skorne
>Hordes is made for WM

And you're officially full of shit if you think that holds any manner of logic or reason. If PP weren't lazy, they'd have figured out a way to mash Skorne into Warmachine, but they didn't, so they made a DIFFERENT GAME called Hordes to fit Skorne in. That does not mean in any stretch of the imagination that Hordes was designed to be mated to Warmachine, they're DIFFERENT GAMES. It was only after the fact that they shoved them together and, lo and behold, they fit like jelly and mayonnaise because they're DIFFERENT GAMES at their cores.

>inb4 "they use the same stats"

Fuck you, no they don't and never have, and saying they do is like saying chess and backgammon are the same game because they both have pieces and a board.

Warmachine is interally balanced because the factions were built around its rules and method of play. Hordes, including Skorne, is internally balanced because the factions were built around its rules and method of play. Warmachine and Skorne are NOT balanced because they're from two sets of different rules and different methods of play than what Skorne was designed for. Blatant apologism only illustrates that PP fucked up and have never managed to fix it.

>>49794724
>"Hordes are Warmachine are different games!"
You might as well be arguing that factions aren't balanced against each other because they're DIFFERENT FACTIONS at their cores. It's obvious to everyone but you that they're two halves of the same coin.

>Fuck you, no they don't and never have
Oh fuck I was rolling MAT+2d6 as a Skorne player against a Cygnar player's DEF. Shit, I was meant to do something else, damn I ruined the game for both of us without realising it because we use completely different stats.

How come only 40K has a bigger community but it seems nobody plays this game? Even guildball community is more vocal.

>>49794866
because butts have been hurt.

so folks are having a sulk. or they're not prone to tantrums and are actually busy playing the game.

>autists
>vocal

>>49794866
I think a lot of it is that there's a lot less interest in the Iron Kingdoms fluff. This thread is all bitching about rules and balance for example.

>>49789098
>If 3 years wasn't enough to make skorne viable in mk2, 3 more months isn't going to do it.
Unless the rumor that Mk3 was simply unfinished and rushed out is true. It would explain why factions like Khador seem rather well thought-through, while Skorne (not the only example, just the worst) read like something written in half a lunch break. In that case, PP would not have 3 months to finish Skorne. They would have ~8-9 months, assuming the mk3 release was locked in somewhere around April.

The alternative is that the PP team are literally, yes literally, brainless retards. Because I could half-ass a better Skorne ruleset in about 20 minutes.

>>49790295
Sentry is utter shit. The gun does nothing and it can't fight in melee. It's animus is trash and it is slow as fuck. There is NOTHING good about the sentry and that is at 16 points. It's worse than the fucking Raider.

>>49790819
Everything. But the real problem is that our stuff gets killed trivially by anything.

>>49791853
Pics or didn't happen.

>>49795402

Except the Bugs at range. Excepting Ossyan feat-turn, for completeness sake.

so no kind anon caring to share mark of caine?

>>49795877
nope