/WMG/ Warmachine & Hordes General

Anyone playing the holden league? the scenarios are kinda meh. seem pretty much like caster kill scenarios. still fun tho

JUSTICE FOR CRYX

>>49686214

I don't know my FLGS is participating but im playing tonight so im going to check. im interested to see how it plays out because im a sucker for gameplay that ties into the fiction.

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>>49685852
>What's your favorite warjack and/or warbeast and why?

Everyone's favorite little beachball. Auto-include in dang near every list, and it's the reason (plus Induction) why I can run all the vectors ever.

Rules Question from a newb:
If I charge, do I get all my melee attacks or just one? It says in the Prime Digest under charge that you make initial melee attack and under melee attacks it says that initial melee attack means all of them.

>>49686831
if you complete the charge your first attacks damage is boosted, then you get all your other attacks which are not boosted and then you may buy more if you have that option. in other words you get all your melee attacks but only the first one is boosted, hope that helps.

>>49686920
Thanks, that pretty much clears it up

>>49685852
>question of the day: What's your favorite warjack and/or warbeast and why?

Juggernaut. It's just the very embodiment of what drew me to Khador. It's big, it's tough, it's got an axe.

>>49685852
Favorite Jack? Gotta be the Cipher. Pow 18, 20 on a certain feat, and enough armor and boxes to not be crushed by most things. Not to mention the debuff and rough terrain it can deal out.

Also on that note, what's a good convergence list that's fun?

>>49687863
What caster?

Noob Question Nr 2:
Can my units move through other friendly units or do they have to go around them? Same for LOS?

>>49687941
No.

>>49687941
through other units, yes
through other models, no

Is it possible for me to play well enough to get a girlfriend.

>>49687962
>>49687987
Uhm, so which is it now?

>>49688187
You can't move through other models.

So no moving and no LOS through any models?

>>49688289
Yes.

So how are Khador warjacks like the Kodiak and Decimator now?

>>49688289
Unless they have special rules that allow it, You can't move through or draw LOS through friendly or enemy models.

>>49688339
Kodiak's really good. Decimator is alright.

>>49688289
You can draw los to a model bigger than the models in between

Got an opportunity to buy the Mk2 Retribution Battlebox and a metal unit of Dawnguard Sentinels for a good price. I'm also going to grab the Sentinel UA and turn the heavy into Discordia.

What would you advise as next steps for breaking into Retribution?

>>49689199
MHSF + UA or Houseguard Riflemen + Thane or Dawnguard Invictors + UA

Definitely get some Arcanists though

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>>49685852

>What's your favorite warjack and/or warbeast and why?

my absolute favorite warjack is Nightmare by far. I love his look, I love the fact that aside from maybe one or two other helljacks he's one of the hardest hitting jacks that cryx has. I love that he's stealthed while in dennys control range and now he constantly has ghostly so you can just move him right through just about everything and all those lovely freestrikes while doing it to say nothing of his chain attack.

I also love his lore the fact hey carried dennys body back to base and became the instrument of her vengeance it metal as fuck.plus dennys my favorite caster so that helps

How does Khador play now? Are they still (generally) low on jacks, high on great infantry? Are they (generally) more assaulty or shooty?

>>49690906
Have some shooting based infantry lists, but their jacks are leaps and bounds better, especially the cheap ones.

>>49690906
Much less infantry than before, except for Irusk2.

Jacks got cheaper, benefited hugely from power up, more hard targets to whack, 1" reach, and got some buffs on top.

Khador tends to a mix of shooty and melee. Widowmakers are still golden, and have been joined by Behemoth, rifle corps with attacked rocketeers, and Kell.

The most common jacks are juggernauts and kodiaks, with Behemoth and Ruin fairly common as well. Beast has fallen out of favor as his reach because less valuable. The Marauder is nifty and very cheap, the clamjacks have less armor while closed and more armor while open, and Torch has supplanted the Spriggan as a source of flare.

>>49691055
>>49691121
Interesting. Always been on edge of getting into warmachine, glad to hear the big stompy robots are the focus again.

So overall Khador has effective, large and hard to kill jacks that are supported by infantry?

What about retribution? What is their playstyle?

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>>49685852
The humble Kodiak is my personnal favorite: I love the idea of a sturdy, tough, and somewhat independent Warjack like the Kodiak, and I love hows its main weapons are two giant fists. There is nothing more satisfying that having a Kodiak run in, and combo chain some punk ass 'Jack or beast.

So any ideas what the man'o'war battle engine will be?

>>49691600
A Battle Engine involving Man'o'Wars

>>49691600
A Man'o'War mech? I don't know if it would fit but id love to see it.

>>49691648
In the last privateer press primecast, Hungerford spoiled large based man o war and a man o war battle engine. It's a thing, but probably not for at least a year.

>>49691334
I've a huge soft spot for the Kodiak, although I far prefer the look of the old one - there's something about the way it's flat and wide, rather than tall. Fuck, I'm going to go and admire the one on my shelf now.

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>>49685852
Tie between the Banshee and the gunbunnies. On the one hand, the Banshee is a drop-dead sexy elf mech with the best melee weapon combination (sword and dagger) and a pretty good gun. But on the other hand, the bunnies are just engines with legs and a gun. Let's face it, everything else is just window dressing. It's basically high-concept minimalism.

>>49691600
A bunch of Man'o'Wars doing a cheerleader pyramid, but with small cannons on their backs. It has a minifeat where they throw some of the soldiers at the enemy.

>>49685852
>What's your favorite warjack and/or warbeast and why?
I don't have one.

t. Skorne player

>>49690906
Play whatever you like (except for Bombardiers). Everything in Khador is at the very least okay and easy as fuck to play.

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>>49693828
>Bombardiers are still bad

its a shame because I like the models and the fact there using chainsaw grenade launchers is cool.

Finally got double of Skorne's good solos; Master Tormentors to kill infantry, Void Spirits for le Mordikaar maymays, and double Soulward to blow holes in warbeasts.

>>49691938
yeah I heard something about that, but I just chalked it up to idle rumors and whatnot, cant wait to see if we get something cool or if were looking at another Centurion khador editon.

>WHAT THE RHINODON SHOULD BE

>FUR3 THR9 PC12
>SPD5 STR10 MAT6 RAT3 DEF10 ARM20 CMD4

>TAIL
RNG3 POW4 PS14
THRESHER (*ATTACK)
>CLAW X2
RNG1 POW4 PS14

>ANIMUS
LOCKER (THE OLD SENTRY ANIMUS THAT PREVENTS SHIT FROM GETTING AWAY FROM IT)

NOW IT IS A TANKY THRESHING MACHINE

>>49696219
Needs to keep back plates though.

>>49696257
IT CAN HAVE CARAPACE TOO THEN SO IT CAN WANDER OUT OF MELEE RANGES AND NOT GIVE A FUCK

>>49696276
Na, that's the bugs.

But still, a decently survivable model that locks down an enemy heavy and damages the hell out of it when killing the Rhino seems like a decent piece.

>>49696452
YOU MUST'VE MISSED THE PART WHERE I GAVE ITS THRESHING TAIL RANGE 3

>>49696463
I don't think that really helps it. Skorne has always been decently good at killing large amounts of infantry, giving them another piece that does it isn't going to make it especially attractive.

>>49691600

It'd be interesting to see what it'd be armed with.

Behemoth's Armor piercing fists, two arm mounted Bombardier Guns and or two mortars or two Cannons like the ones on the Battle Carriage would be interesting.

Would be even more interesting if they give it the strength or power to solo a Colossal or Gargantuan and win.

Though curious, since it'd be a Man-O-War, would the new Man-O-War solo or the Man-O-War Kovnik do anything for it?

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>>49696563

>would the new Man-O-War solo or the Man-O-War Kovnik do anything for it?

one would presume so, I mean if it says Man-O-War on the card it counts so their would be some sort of interaction. Like how banewitch Agathia counts as a bane for Tartarus's curse or the Desecrator helljack's Accumulator ability.

>>49696486
But having the ability to thresher infantry down while being able to lock heavies down is sort of sweet. Especially since range 3 on a melee weapon makes Locker even better.

>>49696711
>>49696463
They're not going to give anything base range 3.

>>49696723
And they're sure as hell not going to nerf the Rhinodon going from Mk2 to Mk3.

>>49696616

For the purposes of repair that'd be interesting then as it'd be fixable by both the Swamp Gobber Tinkers and the Man-O-War Battle Mekanik.

Something else that would be neat: if they gave it Girded.

>>49696219
>rng 3
I honestly hope PP doesn't listen to a single skorne player on this board

Why does everyone want the Rhinodon to have thresher? Literally redesign the thing every incarnation has sucked since m2

im thinking of joining a a 2v2 70 pt total Team Tournament (35 point list per player). can anyone recommend some decent 35pt denny2 lists I could use or what I should bring.

>>49698279
What's your team mate playing?

>>49698249
Thresher is a fine rule. The issue was that it was tied to the amuck animus. Anything designed around amuck was bad ala mountain king.

Rhinodon being a budget devastator where it is cheap, tanky and anti infantry is an ok concept.

>>49698249
>Why does everyone want the Rhinodon to have thresher?
Because otherwise it's just going to be compared to the Gladiator/Bronzeback. It can't just be a beatstick.

>>49698367
no idea really, I don't even know who it will be that's why im trying to hash out a decent list to cover all my bases. ideally the list would be something that I could help my team mate out with while still being able to hold my own if he turns out to be deadweight.

its funny I just played a 35 pt game last night with venny and did alright with it, but id prefer a denny list since she's my go to caster.

>>49698723
I wonder what I'd field with only 35 points to play with. Probably a Xerxis1 Cetrati brick with an Agonizer, then like 2 Cannoneers and some solos. Could even consider dropping Handlers in a list like that.

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>>49698779
yeah it is sort of a weird pt total to use but it makes you think so you cant just throw everything and the kitchen sink in there I was thinking of using something like this.

http://conflictchamber.com/#bk0z0B1x191vge1F1D1Q2B


(Deneghra 2) Wraith Witch Deneghra [+28]
- Nightmare [18]
- Deathripper [6]
- Slayer [10]
Satyxis Gunslingers [7]
Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls [4]
Mechanithralls (min) [6]
Satyxis Blood Witches (min) [8]
Warwitch Siren [4]

>>49698779
Or maybe not. I think you'd still need to bring Handlers in Skorne, which means you're 5 points down from the start, sort of a big deal. The alternative would be to bring a warlock with a larger fury pool like Hexeris or Rasheth so you can leach more back per turn, but this loses Defender's Ward for your Cetrati so there's no point bringing them. Fuckin Skorne man.

>>49698818
(Mordikaar 1) Void Seer Mordikaar [+29]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Agonizer [7]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Void Spirit [4]
Void Spirit [4]

Here's what I'd take. Feels really bad working without Handlers though when your team of beasts generally generates 7 per turn. I suppose once Cannoneers are in position they can just aim instead of boosting hit, so I only generate 5, leaving up 2 transfers. I'd bring this assuming my opponent was more orientated towards melee heavies that my Agonizer can support while my Cannoneers dunk balls from behind.

>>49698854
>shooting list
I like it if I knew who I was teamed up with I might try to gear myself up as a melee list, in conjunction with maybe one of the cygnar players or even one of the shooty khador players that will probably join up.

would you still include an arcnode in a denny3 list? on the one hand its a denny list and denny loves her nodes but on the other hand she's mobile enough to get around to where she needs to sling a spell and get out and I could use the extra points for other things.

>>49699649
You need the node so she can cast without dying.

>>49699818
Posts like this remind me that Skorne is full of short range spells on squishy casters and zero arc nodes.

>>49700780
Arc nodes aren't Hoksune

>>49700803
Does that mean Hexeris and Rasheth aren't Hoksune? They can, to a limited extent, channel.

>>49700830
Rasheth certainly isn't.

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>>49690846
>I also love his lore the fact hey carried dennys body back to base
Of course he carried her back to base. He's Cryx. Killing your boss and then showing off the body is how you get promoted.

>>49702462
normally yes for living and formally living things, but for a giant robot whos main thoughts consist almost entirely of murder to do it out of love/loyalty, that's something that doesn't happen very often in the Meritocracy that is the Nightmare empire, and that's something I can dig.

interesting seller popped up on ebay....

plastics. on sprues.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/stephen57425962

>>49696563
Kovnik targets manowar units so no.

>>49704678
Yeah he sells shit quality brittle resin recasts

>>49704825
so, official PP resins?

>>49704964
PP stuff is super soft, not hard and brittle.

Newbie Question Nr 3:
Does the Deathjack Power Up and then gets up to two additional focus from non-crippled arm systems and then the warnoun can allocate him extra focus? Meaning he starts most turns with at least 3 focus?
And Nr 4:
When Asphyxius uses his acid cloud spell and he places it directly on some models, do they immediately suffer the one damage?

>>49706474
Yes and no.

Deathjack has no rule that prevents him from powering up. Caustic Mist triggers on entering or ending their activation within. Models that the cloud is placed upon do neither (at least not right then and there).

Whats the cheapest (£$) 75 point list that can be made? Forget gameplay terms, how much is the smallest amount you can throw at this game and have 75points? Was talking about entry points with a friend and im curious how cheap you can run a tournament level list.

>>49707308

I'm guessing a cavalry or heavy infantry focused list. Maybe a Khadoran Man o War list?

I can't imagine it'll vary that much, though. It doesn't have the 40k problem for the most part.

>>49707308
As a rule of thumb, warnouns are cheaper than infantry, so armies that can run heavy on warnouns are generally cheaper. Menoth and Skorne are pretty good for that, with casters like Amon, Durst, Naaresh, and Morghoul1 loving a board of beasts.

>>49708475
Now that I think about it, Morghoul1 is even better because he was the Mk2 battlebox caster, and you got a Gladiator in that box. You can probably pick one of the boxes up very cheap.

>>49708510
>starting Skorne
>in Mk3

>>49708924
>Implying they won't get hardcore buffed in Mk3.1

>>49709099
Sure. And they get fairy unicorns as their next unit.

>>49709259
Sugooooiiiii.

>>49685852
Anyone else quit post mk3?

>>49707391
Cavalry is like $100 a unit for 20 points. While warnouns are $35.

>>49709746
My local Cryx player did. He owned 3 units of Banes and very rarely played, but was very opinionated about Mk3 despite not playing a single game. It's not like anyone at my LGS is spamming Ozzy gunlines or Storm Lances or anything. He was kinda just a crybaby who picked Cryx because it was the OP faction.

>>49704798

What if it counts as a Man-O-War unit?

New menoth player here. What's babby's first warcaster after malekus? And is temple flameguard any good? They look cool.

>>49709746
Like half of Germany.

>>49709746

Why all the quitting?

>>49710188
Lead up to Mk3 was a public relations disaster, and Mk3, while not really bad, doesn't feel all that different from Mk2

Combine that with some dubious changes, and the fact that Skorne, already semi struggling, got way worse in Mk3 while some of the strongest stuff stayed plenty strong, and you got a situation where people aren't too happy.

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>>49707308
This list is terrible, but it's exactly 75 points for retail $40 box, 4x$35 Carnivean box. $180 is as low as I can go. You can go 10% cheaper than retail on the online sellers.

Alternatively, you can buy someone's old Skorne army for pennies on the dollar.

>>49710230
I really really wish PP would start revealing some of the changes they're going to make to Skorne. Like, in explicit detail. I wanna see feats I can build a list around, good spells, worthwhile abilities or bigger spell lists with less abilities I died inside when I read Stryker1 for the first time, holy shit he'd be the best warlock in Skorne by a metric mile and he's only mid tier in Cygnar, lights with good animi, warriors with MAT7 and worthwhile abilities, and most of all, I want to see a Morghoul2 that looks like he's capable of assassinating a caster.

>>49710090
>battle engine
>unit

No.

>>49710291
There's probably some faction where you can get 3 battle boxes and an additional plastic heavy for $155.

>>49710356
They're not going too. They're pretty terrible at being transparent, as history has shown us.

I think it's dangerous for them to do it though, because if they decide to make changes later, then the spoilers were be invalidated and people will get pissed.

>>49710421
I don't think he means an actual unit, he's talking about it counting as a MoW keyword.

>>49710423
Kozlov and 7 heavies is probably playable.

>>49709746
I'm basically out. I will play a tourney or two since that's how I enjoy my saturdays, but I don't go to regular game nights anymore. If the game isn't fixed by december of 2017, I'm tossing everthing out.

>>49710356
Take ANY caster in ANY faction and tell me he's not better than 80% of Skorne warlocks.

>>49688187

What he means is, yes, you can by definition move "through" other units. As long as you don't move through other models.

O O
X

X Can move through the unit of O, as long as he doesn't cross the base of any of the models in that unit.

>>49710356

But good casters ain't everything, you have to realize Skorne has some of the best beasts in the business!

>>49709746

eSorscha got hit with a huge nerf, my favorite caster. WGI my favorite unit in the entire game got nerfed, at def 12 arm 13 there isnt much that cant really thrash them. Mad dogs of war and Butcher2 took a massive fucking nerf, one of my favorite lists. Fire doesn't randomly win you the game any more and the conquest is insane, I was really looking forward to it. My tripple colossal list isn't possible any more.

Any excitement I had for my faction is completely dead and gone. No other faction appeals to me.

Im waiting for a cool theme list before I start playing again. I'm hoping they release something soon.

>>49710745
Sounds like you just need to play karchev mad dog spam since you just like netlisting.

>>49710741

>Skorne has some of the best beasts in the business!

Like?

Titans and Krea have taken a hit recently.

>>49710831
I'm sure it was sarcasm

>>49710745

My group has never had much of a Tournament play style, sadly. And when your the only one playing by the RAW, and trying to build good lists, you automatically become the "bad guy". So I did what everyone else was doing, building goofy lists of models I thought cool, even thought I might as well had been playing AoS to get that satisfaction out of me...

We where all hyped as fuck when mk3 was to come, but believe it or not, the guys claiming to be the good guys, sportsmanship of the year and so on, well.. .they all dropped when they heard and saw the nerf that came to many of their units and lists. I was like what the fuck?!? I thought you guys didn't care much for the balance of the game? What ever happened to "its not the goal, but the journey thats important" bullshit?!? Turned out, much of the stuff I had got my hands on had become pretty viable as well, didn't help when I steamrolled first guy I met with my "friendly lists"....

Nowadays... no one plays, so fucking sad!

>>49710741
Like one of Soles's favourites, the Rhinodon!

>>49710831
>Gladiator
>Cannoneer
>Agonizer

These are the only beasts that I'd say could be considered "good" when put aside shit like the Juggernaut or Nomad. Even then the Agonizer is useless against gunlines.

>>49710745
You're really complaining about Khador.

>>49710841

Oh noes.. he´s on to me!

Would have actually liked to start up skorne if it wasn't for the fact that >>49710842, mentioned that no body plays the game around where I live any more. And that they are so bad its just painful. Someone at PP must surely have a childhood trauma involving elephants or something...

>>49710856

What about the Ardus Soldier, Molik Karn, Tiberion or Despoiler?

>>49710456
Then his response doesn't make any sense. The conversation was over whether the MoW Kovnik would affect it and as >>49704798 points out the Kovnik only affects MoW UNITS, which a battle engine is not.

>>49710873
>Ardus Soldier
Only used because it's half decent, but has 23ARM against shooting.
>Molik Karn
Requires you to use a Makeda, none of which are spectacular. Even then he's a shadow of his former self.
>Tiberion
Just plain costs too much for a beatstick.
>Despoiler
He's meh. Not as pillow fisted as Mk2, and Void Spirits are much better now, but still meh.

See now you're looking at the character beasts, all of which demand their bond in order to be even remotely playable. There are plenty of character warjacks that don't care about their bond.

>>49710913
>Only used because it's half decent, but has 23ARM against shooting.

I don't think that's fair. Soldier hits the hardest of any non-character beast in the faction at this point.

>>49710913

What about the Sentry then?

>>49710745
>WGI my favorite unit in the entire game got nerfed
If you want an insane Winterguard unit, there's always Rifle Corps. And, frankly, WGI had a bit too much versatility. They needed a bit of a nerf.

>Mad dogs of war and Butcher2 took a massive fucking nerf, one of my favorite lists
You can now spam Doom Reavers with any caster you want.

>My tripple colossal list isn't possible any more.
Why the fuck not? Nothing's stopping you from taking 3 collosals.

>Any excitement I had for my faction is completely dead and gone.
Shocktroopers are good now. Jack heavy lists are now something that works outside of the most casual of casual play. KARCHEV IS A COMPETITIVE CASTER. Christ on a cracker, you are seriously trying to be disappointed if you're upset over where Khador is right now.

>>49710963
LOL

The Sentry's huge halberd has less power than a Nihilator's sword. That's all you need to know. It even lost its good animus and gained a shitty unboosted attack in your opponent's turn. That old animus would've been ridiculous with the new Agonizer.

>>49710953
I'm pretty sure the only change to the Soldier from Mk2 to Mk3 is the slightly cheaper point cost. It really does only see play because of Carapace bro. It's played as a Gladiator that can't be shot off the table.

>>49711019
It's almost strictly superior to a Gladiator outside the animus.

>>49711058
Nigger you're gonna disregard the best animus in Skorne like that? And let us not forget that the Soldier costs 4 more points. That's like, your min unit of Handlers.

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Are the tokens in the Starter Box's generic or faction specific?

im thinking of grabbing a cryx box for the reaper, Agatha and a cheap slayer, I could take or leave the deathripper, iv already got 2 painted and 3 unpainted that I probably wont use and cant figure out how to really get rid of.

>>49711277
>Are the tokens in the Starter Box's generic or faction specific?

They're generic tokens. They look pretty much exactly like they do in that pic.

>>49711277
Generic tokens.

It's fucking black though, so only the focus token is usable

>>49711277
It probably wouldn't be too hard to convert them into Defilers or Ripjaws if you've got some 40k bits lying around, and your group isn't anal about that sort of thing.

>>49711277
let me check...generic, gray with PP logo

>>49710741
Fuck no.

anyone have any good tutorials on painting convergence?

>>49711665
>Prime in black
>Black basecoat
>Drybrush everything with silver
Army done in 10 minutes.

>>49710963
The sentry gets punched in the face, doesn't kill back, then dies.

>>49711903
basically this, shiny and chrome

>>49696219
Fucking terrible.

Range 3? Why?

Keep its current stats. Keep the animus.

Gains Defensive Strike. 2x pow 14 open fists. 1 pow 13 horn with special attack armor pierce. pow 16 chain weapon tail with crit smite.. Same point cost.

With that many attacks and being a big blob of armor 20 that hurts back when you attack the Rhinodon is now very cost efficient and good for spam.

Wanna fix the archidon? Give it Prey. Cost stays the same.

>>49712085
Too many attacks and giving it armorpiercing is stupid. Other guy's build is dumb, but yours are dumber.

>>49712151
Its not base armor piercing. Its the Star attack version. You have to give up your initials to use it with the horn. Or you can enrage and buff it up to decent PS.

>>49711296
>>49711314
>>49711378
thanks guys it really triggers my autism if all the tokens aren't matching, to say nothing of the fact that everything aside from the focus is almost unusable

>>49711336
iv got 2 defilers already as well, the issue isn't really a conversion thing its really just a fact that I have too many bone chickens and when I only need to run 2 maybe 3 at a time. the others are really just superfluous unless I plan on running an 8 bonechicken list for shits, giggles and hilarity.

>>49712490
Still too stupid considering that you are aiming to keep the pt cost the same.

Give it one job and let it be good at that instead of wishing deathjack level utility.

>>49712616
I still say give it ARM20, Locker, and Tail plates back.

Decent, durable beast that makes a great objective holder but is still pillowfisted as shit.

>>49712642
I still wouldn't play that.

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>>49711999
trips confirms

>>49712801
I also meant to bump it up to 32 boxes.

But why not? You get a cheap as shit beast that's fairly annoying for your opponent to remove.

>>49710810

>theme list
>net list

Pick one dips hit

>>49710864

No I'm complaining that all the things I liked got changed and i'm having to play something completely different, something I'm not interested in or excited about.

Try reading next time you fucking mong

>>49711016
>there's always Rifle Corps

You are right, but I played the infantry for its aggressive play style and ridiculous tool box versatility. They could tackle any thing you tasked them out to do, I loved that unit.


You can't spam reavers. I used to take 10 units... I used to field 60 of them, now at max I can only field half that.

I had a list where I would take a conquest with the reaver spam and in mk3 I still don't have nearly as many on the table as before.

You also lose the +1 starting roll which is fucking massive. Most games I won via objective, if my opponent walked forward it would be a blood bath. It's a jam list first and foremost.

Yes you can take them with any caster, is 30 doom reavers enough? Probably not unless you're playing zerkova 1 and abusing the cloud wall she can pump out.

>Why the fuck not? Nothing's stopping you from taking 3 collosals.

The points are stopping me, there isn't enough people willing to play 75pt+ games.


>Shocktroopers are good now. Jack heavy lists are now something that works outside of the most casual of casual play. KARCHEV IS A COMPETITIVE CASTER. Christ on a cracker, you are seriously trying to be disappointed if you're upset over where Khador is right now.

If I wanted to play medium base infantry or jack spam I wouldn't of picked khador as my faction. I didn't blindly choose it based on the cover of the forces book. I wasn't one of those people crying that we couldn't spam robots, i wasnt upset to learn that my medium based infantry sucked. Sure mow deserve to be decent, but I didn't begrudgingly buy a bunch of man o war so I could be fucking bitter about it for years to finally get some sort of satisfaction from it in mk3.

>>49712880
And what does it do? Nothing.

>>49713067
Holds zones, locks down enemy units and heavies.

ARM 20 means that killing it with infantry is fairly annoying for it's cost, and killing it with a heavy means that back plates comes to the fore, leaving that heavy hurting. Even a hard hitting heavy is going to take around 4-5 swings to kill it, and at d6 a swing, you're talking about 14-17 average damage, almost half anything's boxes

>>49713051
>No I'm complaining that all the things I liked got changed and i'm having to play something completely different, something I'm not interested in or excited about.

Khador does all the shit it did in Mk2, but better.

Certain units may have changed, but the overall gameplan is still the same.

Claiming they play vastly different is fucking retarded.

>>49713067
A 12 point model holding an 18+ point model in place for a while and getting some damage on it is a good trade in the right situation. And with an Agonizer nearby, it's 22ARM. No heavy is gonna chew through that quicky.

>>49713051
You know you can play higher point values, right? Nobody is forcing you to play 75 pts only.

>>49713051
>You can't spam reavers. I used to take 10 units... I used to field 60 of them, now at max I can only field half that.

Yes you can. And everyone takes less shit in Mk3, game size got smaller.

>I had a list where I would take a conquest with the reaver spam and in mk3 I still don't have nearly as many on the table as before.

Everyone has less shit.

>You also lose the +1 starting roll which is fucking massive. Most games I won via objective, if my opponent walked forward it would be a blood bath. It's a jam list first and foremost.

Everyone lost tier lists, and tier lists were terrible for the state of the game. Complaining they're gone is like complaining you no longer have AIDs.

>Yes you can take them with any caster, is 30 doom reavers enough? Probably not unless you're playing zerkova 1 and abusing the cloud wall she can pump out.

Yes, it is. Is it good? Who knows, but complaining your netlists are no longer netlists just smacks of being an entitled little shit.

>49713051

>theme list
>net list

>Pick one dips hit

I didn't actually play mkii at all the post.jpg

>>49713099
>>49713121
So it can take up table space until it dies? ANY model can do that.

>>49713099
Sentry does it better.

Look the problem its that has to be able to have a niche over the gladiator and sentry. So that's what I gave it. If khador can have ps 19 mat 7 12 point arm 20 warjacks we can that version of the Rhinodon for 12 points. Heavies aren't supposed to melee down infantry. They need to hurt heavies.

Its offensive output is not quite at the same level of the gladiator nor is it as beefy as the sentry but it does it in different worthwhile ways at that point cost.

>>49713051
You are just a fucking idiot.

>>49713166
It can take up table space and fuck up your opponents plans.

And no, not every model can do that. Some models are built solely to take up space and contest, and be hard as fuck to kill while doing it.

>>49713168
Sentry does it different.

>>49713185
Different in better but still shit way.

No one wants to spend 12 points on a heavy thats just going to die and thats it.

Pls go back to your barber Soles and get your head straight.

So how much better would the Rhinodon be if they gave it a Spray?

>>49713209
Why whould they do that?

Also depends on the spray. But again why would they give it a spray?

>>49713168
Too many attacks and has too much utility. Give it armor piercing or crit smite and make it three initials max. If you want to beat up multiple things let it keep thresher. Your rhinodon is stupid.

>>49713185
>Some models are built solely to take up space and contest, and be hard as fuck to kill while doing it.
Yeah, they're called Karax. Except Karax can still CMA. And clog up an entire unit or zone.

>>49713232
It is not to many attacks. Most of them are low pow. If you give it less attacks you have to pump up the PS or people will ignore in favor of the gladiator or the sentry.

>>49709987
Storm Lances are FA2, you can't exactly spam them.

>>49713280
Then do that then. 4 attacks that can handle all fields is stupid for a warbeast at budget price.

>>49713306
Max fa is considered a spam

>>49713231

Maybe one that knocks a target down before the Rhinodon charges in?

>>49713231
>>49713371

In the interest of making it interesting, how about a "Roar" Spray that does no damage, but knocks the target down?

>>49713412
Deafen makes more sense if going that route for some reason.

>>49713334
What do you mean handle all fields?

You're an idiot. If you increase the pow of the weapons you get a cheaper just as good gladiator. This reduces the gladiator even further down to an animus monkey.

3 low pow attacks is fine. 1 moderate pow attack is fine. Armor pierce star attack is fine since you have to forfeit your stronger initials.
Crit smite is fine.

Making the Rhinodon the old m2 versions wont fix it.

>>49713371
>>49713412
Maybe? I mean its good against warpwolves and legion beasts then.The other problem is that it's cheap aoe boostable knockdown on a stick.

>>49713353
Apparently I spam Squires and Journeymen Warcasters, too.

>>49713436
Gladiator being animus bot is fine since it's such a good animus.

You are proposing 4 initials heavy with no fury gimping to compensate.

Mkii rhinodon isn't a fix, but neither is yours.

>>49713474
ITS FURY 3

THREE OF ITS INITIALS ARE BELOW PS 15 WITH 1 INCH OF REACH.

>>49713497
Don't forget that it's only 11/17 and can pay 2 fury to go up to 11/19.

PP realized they made Direct Spirits good and fixed that shit posthaste.

Stuff Buffs ahead, my friends!

>>49713497
Yup. Heaven forbid skorne can't up damage or is in dire need of damage dealers

>>49713531
>Heaven forbid skorne can't up damage
Why give the Rhinodon +2STR when I could give a Gladiator +2STR?

>or is in dire need of damage dealers
So if the Rhinodon isn't there for damage, what IS it there for?

And just so you're aware of just how poorly designed the Rhinodon is, both its threshing weapon and its other two fist weapons are 1" range. This means that unless there's 4+ models spaced so you can get all of them in your front arc (see: never), then the model may as well not have thresher because it can just kill things with its initials.

>>49713436

>The other problem is that it's cheap aoe boostable knockdown on a stick.

Is that really an outstanding issue though?

Also, it'd be on a Warbeasts that's relatively easy to kill wouldn't it?

>>49713531
.... Are you stupid thats the point?

It's so Morghoul1 or Xekkar or Xerxis2 can buff them up and get a high a volume of decent pow attacks. If you make them pow 16 and make it 3 attacks then it gets overboard for what a 12 point heavy should do.

Multiple High quality attacks are the domain of the titans. Let the rhinodon have more but not as good attacks and the Armor pierce star attack for for when you need it to REALLY go ham on that equally point costed Juggernaut.

>>49713597
No not at arm20/22.

>>49713588
I agree. You cant take a heavy warbeast and have it doing no damage.

>>49713588
Then increase the thresher range and give it murderous.

>>49713652
>what is a seraph

>plays khador
>enjoys comfy juggernaut

Skorne is pure lulz

>>49713675
Fuck you the thresher shit is dumb. No one takes a heavy to kill infantry with melee. No one took it for that before. No one will take it now.

>>49713698
Oh you mean that high def warbeast with the multi shot boostable flare gun and the amazing animus. Yeah real shit warbeast there

>>49713701
It really is.

Was a khador player really bitching in here earlier? That's intense. How desperate to be salty would you have to be to complain about that.

We should probably stop trying to redesign the rhinodon and look forward to see whether or not PP creates another fresh disaster.

The Neraph is pretty good mang. You can get that thing to auto hitting pow 18s or 20s I think, if you finagle it right. I don't know if that's a good plan, but it beats the shit out of the Archidon.

Always wondered, what is the point of having the Rhinodon for dealing with Infantry when the Basilisk is clearly more oriented towards handling Infantry?

>>49713754
Your point is that no one takes heavies with no damage. Hence the fucking seraph you mongoloid.

Also you forget bashers, clams, kodiak.

>>49713819
Basilisks are in deep water once they are engaged, that's why

>>49713918
No such thing as deep water in Mk3, friend.

>>49713996
That's how deep it goes once it gets engaged

>>49713893
Are you fucking dumb?

Clam jacks deal no damage? They have 2 pow 16s.

One has two pow 15 guns.


The Kodiak has chain attack grab and smash with 2 pow 16s AND an aoe4 infantry killer on top of all that, while also making a cloud.

Further more they all have better armor for free.

Further more they are all 1pt to 2pts more expensive than the rhinodon while being infinitely better.

You are literally a mongloid.

>>49714048
You are harping on infantry killer having no place, but somehow vent steam is an exception. Yeah, keep on stewing on you hypocrisy.

>>49714118
When its as terrible as the rhinodon yeah it has no place. 2 infront of you gets jack shit.

When its aoe 4 and also provides concealment and it comes as a bonus ability on top of good attacks and a good statline then yes its ok.

What's the typical fight size, point wise now in mkIII?

>>49714183
75 points + BG

>>49714183
75 + however many free points your caster has.

>>49713918

When it comes to single wound infantry, isn't the Basilisk going to be killing them a lot of the time?

The only use I could see for the Rhinodon if that is the case is going after Multi-Wound Infantry.

That being said, I find it odd they didn't give the Rhinodon Berserk.

>>49714246
>Rhinodon
Bad at dealing with infantry
>Drake
Better at dealing with infantry
>Cannoneer
The best thing Skorne has at dealing with infantry.

The Drake is RAT5. Most infantry is DEF13+.

>>49714192
>>49714235

Thanks

>>49710174
Why is that though? I'm german and just started with some buddies. Would suck pretty badly if the local scenes were dead now though

>>49714278
Oh and if you want to nail infantry on the cheap, you use a Master Tormentor or Orin Midwinter.

>>49714445
This the problem with skorne is that warbeasts like the rhinodon/archidon/molik karn are outclassed by 4 point solos.

>>49714278

>Most infantry is DEF13+

Most infantry *you will encounter on the table* are DEF 13+. Of the rest though, Sentinels will laugh at the Cannoneer and then kill her.

>sucks to be skorne

>>49714465
>Sentinels will laugh at the Cannoneer and then kill her
That's because Sentinels are in the top 1-2% of models in the game and are a grotesque example of why you don't put weapon master and high MAT on small based infantry. The fact that their armour is high enough to shrug blast damage is just a spit in the face to game balance.

Though most Skorne lists feature a number of Master Tormentors and Orin, which will have no problem dealing with your Sentinels.

I've been away from the game since MkIII was announced. I had a fairly large force of Ret and Legion (100pts-ish each), and slightly expanded 2-player sets of Circle, Khador, and Menoth. How's do things stack up these days? Did the rumor that Khador could finally spam 'jacks come true?

>>49714525
I've literally given up on our infantry at this point. I've started experimenting with 2x PGMT 2x Void Spirits and Orin Midwinter. They do way more work than any of praetorian units.

>>49715132
Ret is top tier. Legions is still good. Khador is probably the best faction in the game atm.

>>49713113
Khador does all the shit it did in Mk2, but better

You aren't reading what im posting. WGI, Sorscha 2, mad dogs of war, and the victor aren't better than ever. If they were we'd be seeing this shit at tournaments. You might argue that this is due to mk3 being still relatively new, in 5 years I garuantee people won't be playing S2, spamming reavers, or taking death stars. They don't serve a purpose. They are the new bad units. That's all there is to it.

>but khador is better than ever!

Your idea of khador is better than ever, what people were actually playing has gotten worse or isnt viable.

Is this bad, probably not. All you faggots are super excited for it. That's fine and all, but it's not the change I was wanting. I don't have to like the shit you like.

>>49713141

No just my opponents and the tournaments I play in don't allow it. Steam roller or die. I don't play in a super casual meta where we might as well just be pushing little soldiers around on a table, it's a bit more serious than that. if you have that sort of community great for you, I've yet to see something like that myself.

>>49713146
>Yes you can. And everyone takes less shit in Mk3, game size got smaller.


You literally can't put 60 on a table in a competitive environment. There is a critical mass that you have to hit in order for the list to work, it's not at 30. A couple of dedicated shooting units will mow it off the table, that wasn't the case before.

>Everyone has less shit.

For seemingly no real reason

>Everyone lost tier lists, and tier lists were terrible for the state of the game. Complaining they're gone is like complaining you no longer have AIDs.

I liked my aids and theme lists are coming back, don't think PP is going keep any of these from not being the absolute go to when it comes to being competitive. Some will suck and some will be OP as fuck.

>it's a net list

No its an incredibly rigid theme list

>>49715226
The only thing I here is "Waah my bullshit lists got nerfed. My faction is ruined even though it's still top tier!"

Honestly, if you quit the game, it's better for everyone involved.

>>49714461

I thought Molik Karn was still good?

>>49715226
I don't know what to tell you man. Maybe go play AoS or something, it seems more up to your speed.

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450KB, 850x1100px

Bampu

>>49715272
>The only thing I here is "Waah my bullshit lists got nerfed. My faction is ruined even though it's still top tier!"

Still not reading

>>49717667
Then what the fuck is your point?

Are you complaining you can't play the models you like? You still can, they just aren't top tier anymore.

Are you complaining your shit isn't competitive? Your faction still is, and by and large can play the same. Just pick up new shit, meta shifts happen.

Are you complaining that the shit you like isn't competitive anymore, and you refuse to play new competitive stuff because you want the old stuff to still be competitive? Fall into an open manhole and die.

>>49717739

Except Skorne. That shit was weird.

>>49717801
That's a combo of the developers being pissed on how people were playing the faction and the concept of Skorne being fucked at the very basic level.

>>49717667
No, that's basically what you wrote.

Just find a different netlist to copy and stop being a salty faggot

>>49717918

No its not. Khador had bullshit lists? Is that why it was absolutely rocking the meta in mk2?

Besides mad dogs of war theme list, what do you know about the lists I play.

You dont, your just skimming what I've wrote, jumping to conclusions, then posting something along the lines of

>KHADOR IS GREAT YOU CAN'T COMPLAIN

it's almost as if anon had asked who had quit due to mk3. Im not here to bitch or rant. God for fucking bid we start a dialogue and talk about things to look forward to or perhaps make some suggestions about how to find that fun again.

No, fuck it.

>Khador is fine, end of discussion. Play all the obviously good shit like every one else, you net listing fuck.

The fucking irony in this.

Guess I'll hop on the new netlists that are comprised of jack spam and rifle corp with irusk. Really, it's been eye opening. Kill yourself, you're everything wrong with the community as of late.

>>49717987
Wait, you played eSorcha with WGI boat and Mad Dogs, and you're claiming you weren't net listing?

>>49715360

He now only has Side Step with Makeda, he doesn't have any kind of Parry though.

Fate Walker now only lets you move 5" (as opposed to their full movement) and triggers after they unit activates (as opposed to "end of turn").

Those changes actually changed quite a bit. Though karn still has 4 Fury and has decent dmg output, he no longer has the +1 Fury with Makeda or Fury with Xerxis1 (the two casters he had the best output with). Plus, no more free charges obviously.

So at the end of the day, his dmg output isn't "bad" but it's definitely decreased with the Warlocks that used to be able to turn him on. On top of that though, his greatest weakness, is that he now is way easier to kill and can't disengage like he used to. So now he has to basically try and trade like a normal heavy (horrible I know) but he costs 20 points.

I really don;t know if he is worth 20 points when he is so fragile.

Especially when you have Despoiler at 18 points who is really good now and you have Tiberion for 22 points who can basically kill a heavy and still has a good shot at surviving the counter strike.

Molik isn't "bad" but Skorne has armor cracking beasts that are better or cheaper. Moliks thing used to be his ability to engage/disengage rapidly in an army that can't do that normally. Now he doesn't do that all that well.

Personally, I would have liked if, maybe, they had lowered his dmg output a bit (Maybe made him Base P+S 15 but without Weapon Master) but kept his mobility intact.

>>49717987
You played Khador.com and maddogs, that's netlisty as it fucking gets. it's outdated since butcher 3 introduction, but it's still copypasta of old meta

You are either delusional or, no you are just fucking delusional.

>>49718084
Molik is terrible he has only a 70% chance to kill a 10pt cryx heavy after enrage.

Just has an awesome game with Xekaar. 75pt game against my friends Khador running Sorchia. Basically wanted to try running a semi-ranged list. Had a mammoth doing the main amount of shooting, with one raider for pot shots, and had Tibburon there to shield guard. And on the flank I had a krea bubble over a squad of Venator's with swamp gobbers popping a cloud and a Brute shield guarding for the krea.

My friend had a conquest, jugg, behemoth, winterguard with kovnik joe and snipers (who pretty much got shot off the table due to a bad advanced deployment).

With the shield guards spreading the damage taken, and xekaar healing everything with psycho surgery and a min unit of paingivers focusing on healing the mammoth the only thing I lost during the game was one of the paingivers. Popping feat saved my mammoth from a focused up beheamoth boundless charging in (it got down to 4 health boxes) but i was able to heal the mammoth back up enough. . Sparing use of mortality saw his jacks get beat to shit when they did get too close, with only the conquest still standing at the end.

Venators didn't do much be hold off the winterguard, but was really happy with how well my warbeasts we're able to sustain damage and come back. By all rights my mammoth should have died twice over. In the end he ran sorchia out to pop feat and make a last ditch opening but ended up just leaving her open, where my mammoth ended up blasting her off the table.

So I just started playing just some friends, got some cool games in, but it's been only 25-50 pts up till now.
I'm playing Feora2 and got a repenter and a reckoner as my shooty guys, but I want to step up my ranged options for 75 pts.
I want to add a Vanquisher and maybe trade my Castigator for a Hand of Judgment, so that I'm running HoJ, Reckoner, Vanquisher..
Furthermore I want to add a unit for ranged. I have temple flameguard for jamming so I'd like a mostly ranged unit. How good/bad are the Deliverers (does the blast POW increase when doing the CRA?) or should I rather pick up a Sunburst? Cleanser seem rather low ranged to me.
Although I'm probably not going to get them, are Errants or Idrians just way more superior to those units?

>>49714461
>This the problem with skorne is that warbeasts like the rhinodon/archidon/molik karn are outclassed by 4 point solos.
Ironically, our 4 point solos are still pretty fucking bad. The Master Tormentor is generally a suicide solo that kills 2-3 guys then dies next turn because she can't Sprint far enough away. The Void Spirit is great but you need to be using Mordikaar who's not very good right now to really get any value out of it.

Compare the Master Tormentor to a Strider Deathstalker. They both cost 4 points, but the Deathstalker is a pseudo-RNG12 pseudo-ROF2 model with RAT mother fucking 8 what the SHIT is that all about, and Stealth. Oh and Advance Deploy so it can react and be exactly where it needs to be. If Deathstalkers were in Skorne I'd bring 2 in every list and my Tormentors would just gather dust on the shelf.

>>49720973
>pseudo-RNG12
RNG14.

>>49720611

>Blast PoW
Basically, the PoW is halved, and THEN the POW increase from the CRA is factored in. So they're actually pretty dangerous if you hit.

SKREEONK

>>49720973
I agree but its better than our single wound. still cant believe there are ppl on the forums that think Karachi are open at there points cost

>>49722753
It's a matter of perspective. They could be OP in a faction with good casters, jacks and support.

>>49717889

Wow, Skorne really can't catch a break, can it? Even less then a week after being told "Skorne is catching a break".

>>49723174
I honestly don't trust them. Especially if that turd brain Soles is touching Skorne at all.

Only thing dumber than him is his haircut.

>>49717889
>the concept of Skorne being fucked at the very basic level
But it really isn't. If anything it's one of the better faction concepts. It's a faction of warring houses now under the rule of Makeda and Morghoul the boogieman. Society basically revolves around a strict martial tradition. The warriors are expensive to train (see: Praetorian Swordsmen killing each other as the last stage of training), but as a result the warriors they field are elite.

PP just isn't reflecting this in the rules for god knows what reason. Skorne should be the Protoss of Warmahordes; expensive but individually powerful infantry. Instead we get cheap MAT6 Swordsmen and beasts that can see into the future but are only MAT6.

The concept is fine. The execution is fucking dire.

>>49723251

Skorne sweeping the other factions aside and turning the game into one big mess of unfun is the PP design bogeyman, we get it.

I'd just like some proof that it isn't all in their heads.

>>49723413
Read the cards. Read the tournament results. READ NIGGER!!

>>49718025

That's like saying playing pikeman. Or banes is net listing. There are some obvious synergies there that need no explaining.

>>49723413
>Skorne sweeping the other factions aside and turning the game into one big mess of unfun is the PP design bogeyman
Meanwhile Cygnar shooting is sweeping the other factions aside and turning the game into one big mess of unfun.

>>49723662
Previously on WarmaHordes.

22% of tournement players are playing cryx and every faction has to bring a dedicated anti-cryx list in their pairing.

>>49688393
How's the Torch stack up against, say, the Grolar or other options in the same point cost segment? Using Kozlov or Karkevich as 'caster.

>>49693828
What makes them so bad, or rather, what makes them worse than the Demolition Corps? The demos got basically nothing other than a solid beatstick.

Has there been any news about the new hordes faction since June? Grymkin orhalloweentown or whatever its going to be. Oogie Boogie a warlock now.

>>49696563
>>49696616
>new Man-O-War solo

What new solo?

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419KB, 1000x1333px

I really want to get in to the game again. But not in that cuddly friendly "re-do moves" type of play my friends used to enjoy. Seriously, they used Warmahordes as a substitute for their inability to enjoy any GW made games, and tried to play it as such.

Thus I had to force moral bounds on my lists >"because if you pick that your a douche!".

I had to endure endless
>"oh, whats that? I'm in reach of your unit? My mistake, -reposition-, there, hows that? This was my initial idea so not allowing this is bad sportsmanship!",

Oh, and the classic
>"I'm not sure your right, let me just grab the rule book and have a quick read through -20 minutes later of endless debates - oh, alright, I guess you where right",

and the
>"Oh you brought that list? Talk about WAAC"

I really want to play this as a steamroller. I really want to play with lists not suited for retards. I want to utilize tactics to get the better of my opponent. And yes, I want to use that fucking Chess-clock I have owned since I started this game! Why? Because I want to feel good at this game, I want to get better, and I want to play a game that can give me the option to travel around and enlist in tournaments without finishing last every fucking time.

>>49724651
Mk3 is actually better for your first complaint since you can just measure your opponent's threat range and sit just outside it, so no takebacks are needed.

>>49723354
>Skorne should be the protossof warnachine

I want this to become true now

>>49724457
An insider today just announced that they are getting revealed at smogcon

>>49724799

Sure, but it used to be a skill needed. Without it you where a sitting duck, ready to be fucked. Bothers the hell out of me that they went with the AoS-design on that (to get the new kids in). What ever happened to "play it like you got a pair"?

>>49725003
Nigger you could already premeasure.

>>49723174
Honestly that means jack shit until I actually see what they do. Their idea to make a rhinodon better might simply be to make it even cheaper, but it'll still be shit that I don't want to run.

>>49723354
>But it really isn't. If anything it's one of the better faction concepts.
I don't agree. Pigeon hole'ing them into a mainly brickish melee faction is unfun. People had more fun when they got tool kits for more elaborate menouvers ala missle molik karn, etc. If you look at Tau it's a similar problem (regardless of power level) their type casted as a ranged army, a common complaint is that it's boring to play against because they just sit and shoot. I did find them kinda boring/annoying at times when I played them because there was basically a whole phase of the game I never got to enjoy, which was close combat, which is a very big part of 40k gameplay. Thankfully Skorne do have some ranged gameplay as well as other tactics they can rely on besides just walking up to punch everything, but it doesn't hurt to expand on these or give them new tools.

The whole "the army gets stronger as things die" concept never worked either, no one ever uses or cares about Ancestrial Guardians outside of zaal tier stuff, and they had to change the rules for immortals just so that they'd generate souls themselves.

>>49725174

Yes, to an extent. But you had to be smart about it. And playing by RAW, you also had to explain what the measure was and how much it was if your opponent wanted to know. You also couldn't measure if it wasn't your turn, and you could only measure command if you activated the chosen unit.

See, its a lot more to it than "muh premeasure wus already there".

>>49724651
> My mistake, -reposition-
With premeasure now, you can force them to stick to their original moves.

>20 minutes later of endless debates
That's understandable for newer players though. It takes bit of a whole to get everything down, and you want to be sure they've got it memorized correctly.

>Talk about WAAC
Okay their being assholes, though not necessarily wrong. The game can become quite painful if they still have a limited collection and lack tools to work around whatever strategy your army brings. A friend of mine has played khador for a long time and has just about whatever he needs, his brother just started up trolls and has little more then the starter boxes and one heavy beast. Do you know how sad it is to watch troll impailers and axers go up against khador heavies?

It sounds like your group was just stuck in training wheels mode, and yea at some point they need to be pulled out of that. They'll never learn from their mistakes if they keep redoing shit, not to mention it's good to make mistakes and then figure out how to dig yourself out of the hole you dug.

>>49725301
>couldn't measure during your turn
Absolutely false. In Mk2 you could measure your control area for any reason, at any time.

>>49725174
>>49725301

Oh, and on a side note, you play with time, you surely didn't throw away your time to "be smart about it". You saw the distance, and you went for it sometimes when time was scarce, if you knew your distance it saved your ass.
Now however, you can just AoS-measure the way to be "just outside".

>>49725248
Immortals should've always generated a soul anyway considering they're LITERALLY statues with a soul in them.

>>49725488

Nice cherry pick, be proud.

>>49725507
>muh casuals invading muh speshul game!

Having to learn how to eyeball inches was fucking awful and I'm glad it's gone. Only the spergiest of spergs would insist that premeasuring is a bad thing.

>>49725646

Yes, to learn something for a competitive game is horrid isn't it? It would actually mean you could get good with a bit of practice, and that in turn would mean that experience would count for more in the long run.

And you know, you, and all your fussy friends already could premeasure! Thats what it means to to be a casual, you can actually play house rules and whatnot without anyone giving a hoot at your house. Its when the guy who actually brings a good list and plays by the rules guys like you freaks out.

So take your AoS argument and go be casual.

>>49720973
At least we are getting the Venator Dakkar soon.

>>49725765
Just like we're getting the Desert Hydra.

>>49725735
>m-muh casuals!

Instead of relying on bullshit for your victories, you could also just git gud at the actual game, you know. Things like strategy, planning, list building, resource management and any number of other useful skills.

Eyeballing distances wasn't a skill that had anything to do with the actual game. It was a huge bother and nothing more. Removing it is a quality of life change that gets rid of a needlessly clunky and frankly retarded "mechanic".

But stay salty with your unwarranted neckbeard elitism. Bitch and moan about how the filthy casuals dare invade your secret club with their premeasuring. Because if you had to learn such a pointless ability, where's the justice when others dont!? Surely everyone should be equally miserable!

>>49725836
No one cares about the Hydra because its crap.

>>49724411
Torch is fucking amazing now. Like holy shit.

>>49725514

More statue with a Crystalline Intelligence in them.

But that said, giving Immortals souls didn't make Skorne constructs any stronger. Instead the PP nerf-machine promptly kicked into gear and they got weaker, lest Skorne buffs imbalance the game.

>oh god how I wish I was joking, or even just exaggerating
>but I'm not
>not even a little bit

>>49725248
That concept can work they just don't give us the tools to do it.

Last thread I mentioned some mak2 changes.

Among these was swapping feats with mak1, getting Iron Flesh, and giving swordsmen Battle Driven over Relentless Charge.

That makes it so they can't be bombed off the table and after you kill one they become 2x ps 11 def 13 arm 18 infantry with vengeance.

Now they get stronger as you try to kill them.

>>49726116
Yeah they should have just made them speed 5.

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>>49725963

you see, you're to focused on me disliking the fact that I don't agree with you, so much in fact that you completely jump to conclusions such as your post right now. Never did I claim other parts of the game wasn't just as important in terms of tactics and learning, thats your words not mine.

See, when you get frustrated like this, it really shows in your lack of concentration. You do bad cherry picking and draw to conclusions, putting simple un-truth, in placement for your lack of good arguments.

Ending up with a post you think my point of view is, when all I have simply stated is that I find it boring that they implemented premeasure, when the casuals could simply enjoy such things at home anyway. This only hurts the players that wants to get good at the game, as it removes yet another skill that you, in time, gets good at.

So do us all a favor, go fuck yourself with a stick (Preferably one uneven fucker that will do some internal damage).

>>49725963

Oh and one more for the road.

>Eyeballing distances wasn't a skill that had anything to do with the actual game

This is just hilarious, as if anything, it has everything to do with the actual game. Good job for pointing out what a fucking idiot you are. Actually made me giggle a bit to, good show sir, good show.

>>49725584
>is proud
Better than being wrong!

>>49726227
I'm going to tell you the honest truth.

Every wargame played, right now, would be better if it was hex based.

Inches for measurement is the worse thing ever introduced in wargames.

>>49726354
hard to disagree, my skorne brother

>>49726354
3rded

>>49726227
I love how your argument always reverts back to "but the casuals!" in an effort to make it look like your "skill" to guess distances made you a better player. It didn't. That's the sad truth you seemingly refuse to realize.

Still you cling to the false notion that being able to guess a meta-at-best aspect of the game is somehow an integral part of mastering it, when it really is nothing more than a pointless chore that the devs were thankfully smart enough to recognize as such. But now you stand there with your useless skill and can't stomach the thought that all your precious time of memorizing distances was for naught.

So you cry and flail and point fingers and froth at the mouth at the thought of people not having to waste the same time you did, of nobody ever again having to go through the misery of slightly misjudging a distance and ruining what would have been an otherwise impeccably planned turn, no, now people can actually focus on playing the game and formulating stratagems with perfect reliability.

Face it, man. You wasted your time, and it pisses you off to no end that nobody else has to anymore. I kinda pity you, you know. To be so deep in the swamp of elitism and snobbery that you can't even see a simple convenience for what it is. Must be horrible.

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>>49726350

My point being, instead of focusing on the message of the post, you nitpicked like a teen girl not liking her new dress. Yes, you did good and pointed out a fatal error in my post that was actually more towards showing that there is a difference between premeasure and premeasure, good boy, what do you want, a cookie?

>>49726453
>SKREEONK
tough luck, pal

>>49726354

Perhaps, but thats an entire different question, and would put to test other skills needed for that specific game to be good at.

I have never played hex based games, so I wont argue. But I will argue that premeasure removes the skill needed to eyeball a distance, and can be the difference between winning and loosing at certain times (not always). Thus it is a skill that is as vital as knowing your activation process, your game sequence, how and when you will strike, knowing your opponent, knowing on average how much damage you will put in, and so on. Its one in the line of a great deal of many aspects that influence the game, and it was removed.
Thus they have removed one part of the game that was learned over time, in favor of (hopes) greater sales to kids, just like AoS (but with less drastic measures).

Some like it, some don't. Often its the casuals throwing "oh yea, but muh premesure was already there", then arguing all night long about how shit the game was because of this one aspect. While the players against premesure simply acknowledge the fact that it takes time to get good at something, and that its a skill, just like anything else.

>>49726541
Gotta hand it to you, that is some amazing strawmanning right there.

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First attempts at basing, so I used shit models I don't care about. I'm not really happy with either, but I think the one on the right looks best. The big annoyance with it is that the glue holding the stones down is shit, so trying to brush them yellow winds up bringing up bits of stone, and the same applies when putting the brown wash on.

>>49726654
Eyeballing it, it looks to be about .8 of an inch between those two models.

Now that we can premeasure, can you let us know the acutal distance, please?

>>49726673
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/autistic-spectrum-disorder/Pages/Introduction.aspx

Knowing is half the battle. You're among friends here.

>>49726403

>But now you stand there with your useless skill and can't stomach the thought that all your precious time of memorizing distances was for naught.

So you do accept that it is a "skill" after all? Good, now we are getting somewhere. Now, after your done hugging your friends, read the latter part of the post.
Its one skill, in a line of many, but an aspect of the cake that makes the full picture of tactics in Warmahordes. They removed it, not because it was.. what did you say?

>nothing more than a pointless chore that the devs were thankfully smart enough to recognize as such

But because they wanted to increase sales to the kids. They said so in the FaQ, its a matter of sales, and hard games sells bad. Kids wants something they can jump right in to, and feel "good" when playing. The eyeballing was a stick in the wheel for this progress, as it made the game hard straight of the bat, and veterans had to much of an advantage over the new players. GW confirmed this as well, when they removed eyeballing, its a fix old as fuck to get new blood join the hobby, make the game looks simple and cheap (such as good priced starter boxes).

So now, I wont do much crying, I still just think its a wanker move of pp, when claiming this is a game for gamers. The "hardcore" option, for those that wants a game where every move is crucial and when every mistake is dire. The game where you have to play it like you got a pair so to speak. I joined the game because of this play style, you obviously didn't, and you know, we can always just agree to disagree on this.

>You wasted your time

I play like 8+ miniature wargames at the moment, not all of them has premeasure. Time to grow out of your little bubble isn't it?

Friends, friends -- be kind to one another. We are all brothers in Skorne.

>>49726566

>Tip the hat.

>>49726696
But can't you just play with the houserule where you don't premeasure? :^) So your argument is completely invalid.

Checkmate, atheist.

>>49726696
>So you do accept that it is a "skill" after all? Good, now we are getting somewhere.
God, it's like watching a retarded puppy.

The only damage premeasuring has done to the game is in buffing the living shit out of gunlines, which hopefully will be addressed in the Mk3.1 changes. Beyond that all it's done is prevent arguments about whether or not a model was JUST in range by 0.1mm or something asinine like that. Now as you're moving you can declare your intention to be just out so your opponent can't kick up shit next turn.

>>49726696
Dude, everything in this game is short ranged, being a mostly melee fighting game. Short ranged shooting is 6-8", long range is like 14". Adding 2" to a charge makes things ungodly alpha strikers. Look at 40k, basic guns are standard 24' shooting, yet that's not some ungodly difficult eyeballing exercise to play the game, and arguably the game doesn't require that much skill to play at all.

And in wm/h you could always, at any fucking time measure your control ranges from your warcaster/warlock. That means most anyone could easily eyeball each ranges, it just became a fuckton easier for Focus/Fury 8 then f/f 5 casters. Why? for no fucking reason at all. That alone negates your BS "but I have to eyeball everything myself" argument. The trick to get around having to eyeball everything was always there, and smart players know how and when to use it, they just made it fair/universal for everyone now.

Does it change the game, yea it does, but fuck having a games ride on .2" miscalculations. I'd rather win on being able to make opening, and exploiting my opponents positioning mistakes, not on who make the first measurement mistake.

>>49726804

There, you nailed it sir!

I mentioned this a few posts back.
The problem with your inverted logic is that
>A casuals are the term for players who plays with small gaming community, not taking the game very serious. You more than often run in to, not only houserules, but also moral boundaries that needs to be taken in to account to fit in to the local meta.

>B The Tournament player, or competitive player however, plays with the RAW. He enjoys the game, same as the casuals, but on different terms. The moral boundaries are removed, as all play on the same meta. And sportsmanship is replacing the moral restrictions of the casual player.

These two examples shows exactly why what pp should have done, would have been to put the text "for new players, or players who prefer, or houserules" Not to use eyballing. Because to turn it around is to give ground to the players who already had it, and to take from the veterans who wants to stay true to the RAW. This normally wouldn't be a problem, but as pp has launched the game with the term "play it like you got a pair", it is a bit on the false marketing side, when making such changes simply to make the game easier. Whats next, "if your opponent is half your age, you must let him win", printed in the text? Hell, just a reminder that "this is a game, what is important is to have fun". Because to many people confuse competitive gameplay with assholes who wont give no slack. Hell, some of the best players and most fun games I have enjoyed I have fought against in Tournaments against really great players. And some of the worst games was with "close friends" who wanted to play houserules and not so competitive, and then acted like jerks.

>>49726960

Still doesn't change the fact that one crucial charge could be missed (especially if your new), because a bad eyeballing. Thus it was a part of what made the tactics.

Now, I can accept that you guys are new, and that you really really want to have "right". But heres the deal, you cant. As I said, lets just agree to disagree. I thought it a bad move to remove eyeballing, and you didn't. and we all have different reasons (though some of us use cherry picking, and curses instead of actual argument... I think I get what you guys are trying at anyway).

Its that simple.

>>49726960

>Having a game ride on a .2" miscalculation.

But this is dangerously close to moral boundaries. Sure it will rest in the hands of the judge, or if no one is near, your friends sportsmanship, but then that will be colored by your local meta moral restraint. This all just turns in to one big browngrey mess of what makes 40k what it is today.

0.2" missing; "You know, its common you let your opponent have a clear charge when its such a short distance missing"

0.3" missing; "One could argue that his initial thought was to get inside charge range"

0.4" missing; "If I let you charge me, can I charge you?"

I mean, where does it end? If you simply could play by the RAW, you miscalculated, I don't care if its 1" out or 0.2", when in doubt, call the judge.

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>>49727114
Calling everyone against you a newb then runing away. (thumbs up) bestest way to win arguments.

>>49727300

>Running away

Well, I did say agree to disagree like 3 posts ago, so its not like it was a new call. It was only me realizing I'm surrounded by autism. Besides, when you argue on 4chan you are bound to run in to retards like yourself every now and then, I'm simply accepting the fact that no one here will acknowledge defeat, and no one here will change opinion.

But judging from your logic, we should all just keep going?

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>>49727403
>your all newbs
>your all autistic
>your all retards

>the one butthurt they can't beat newbs with "eyeball" machine anymore

>>49727472

Aaww. Well I just figure that the removal of eyeballing was first and foremost for the newbies, but apparently it suited the retards as well, good for you.

>>49719922
Subscribed :)

>>49727503
>removal of eyeballing was first and foremost for the newbies

NQ 66
"In the development of these new editions, we decided that the ability to estimate distances should not be a competitive aspect of play, especially when we already provided a multitude of necessary mechanisms for pre-measurement anyway. Rather then leaving players to rely on these de facto mechanisms during play, which often felt like loopholes or exploits, we simply integrated pre-measurement into the game."

i.e. when you can measure out 16" form a 8 focus caster, there is little to no real "eyeballing" skill required

>>49727677

That would depend on the caster, now wouldn't it?

(oh how I love not being wrong sometimes)

>>49727726

And the location of X caster to be exact. And the location of the battle in place. Or if objectives played a part on where this caster should be in this battle... or terrain... just naming a few here..


so many aspects of just one wheel... like.. premeasure, a part of the whole wheel of tactics.

>>49727726
Yes, it depends on the caster. So basically one player got better pre-measure ability over another depending on caster, for no inherent reason other then their foucs/fury stat. REgardless, pre-measureing was in there since mk.I to some extent, they just leveled the playing field.

>>49727857

>for no other reason other than their focus/fury

Sure it must be more to it than that? Come on, lets think about it for a minute, and hit the reply when you get the catch.

>>49726654
Looks good, one on the right is def better. What glue did you use? I also have problems getting my bases to not flake off and make a mess.

>>49727982
It's cheap glue, and it's awful at holding the stones. I've since removed the bases from both and done them in the basic grey stones. I can't be fucked painting that shit honestly.

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>>49726654
Right now I'm using "Aleene's Tacky glue" which looks like basic elmer's white glue. I mix it with water to give it more flow, spread it on a base then dunk the base in the basing material. It seems to hold everything very well. I go over the whole thing with paint and have no issues with things coming off after that.

Also I'm using a mix of basing materials to get a more varied base look. A layer of fine sand, then patches of bigger particles similar to what your using I think, then i just super glue some rocks on. Apologizing for large pic ahead of time, haven't painted over these one's yet either. Also, used superglue for the large rocks instead.

So RPG question.
What is good to mix with an Advocate that is planning to go into soul taking and ignoring thrall crafting due to not wanting to be murdered reasons, also going for shadow magic asap for the same reason.

>>49729821
>thrall crafting
SKREEONK

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>>49723354

>Skorne should be the Protoss of Warmahordes

That'd be kind of odd given they outnumber every other Hordes faction and functionally are their own Iron Kingdom.

>>49729821
Arcanist offers the widest selection of spells that any gifted class can offer. Thing is that from my memory (I do have the books) one of the best classes for taking souls is bokor but it's got its restrictions and everything. There's also reclaimer but that's not really going to work with your first career so Arcanist would likely fit the best.

>>49730242
Isn't there a bit too much overlap there? That is what I always felt anyways, I was thinking warcaster, but it can't mix with the national warcasters unfortunately, and I find base warcaster a little... lacking.

>>49730868
Well do you want a combat career or a class with plenty of skills? If so I'd recommend pirate since it has some really great abilities or military officer if you'd like to further the support.

Hey thinking about picking this up with a buddy of mine.

Is it worth it? It's either this or 40k.

>>49732346

Less players than 40k, and it's definitely more competitive in it's general outlook, but there's a lot less getting kicked in the balls by a terrible ruleset and a terrible company.

>>49732346

40k is very loose and subject to power creep, ie the new units that GW releases are almost always wildly better than the old stuff.

Warmachine/Hordes is more like a balanced boardgame or living card game, new stuff gets released and most the time its a sidegrade (there are some exceptions) or a bunch of factions get an upgrade at the same time to try and keep the playing field level.

This extends to all facets of both games; 40k is a massive universe with tons of crazy choices for your army and loads of freedom, but also prone to spamming of overpowered units, constant rules interpretations, book keeping and flavour of the month style army building.

Warmachine is more balanced, competitive, with tighter and clearer rules, more of a focus on providing a fair game between 2 players, but is proneto stagnation, over emphasis on playing all competitive all the time, not as big of a universe and is more restrictive.

>>49724461
Was mentioned in the new primecast, large based manowar.

>>49732346
Both can be fun. I liked 40k mainly for the models and lore, WM/H is nice because it's a quick, small scaled game (good models and lore to).

40k ends up asking you to build up large armies, and the units tend to work alone with one focus, thus a lot of move something and shot targets of opportunity, very little interaction between units. WM/H on the other hand invests a lot more into interactions between units as well as more options a unit might choose to do. ex: instead of having my warjack charge another jack and just hit it several times with it's main weapons, i can chose to have it go up and knock them on their ass (knocked stuff is easy to hit/shoot) thus i can have another jack walk up and auto hit with even bigger attacks. Or I can have my jack slam/push something out of the way, opening a hole to send something to attack whatever was hiding behind my enemies warjack etc. With 40k it's pretty much shoot it/ assault it/ maybe fly over it.

Also given the huge difference of models used between the games I've found that 40k just takes too fucking long, even just trying to set up a game to play. It's easier to set up wm/h games, and you need less table space to do it. Games aren't necessarily short, but your not bogged down spending half an hour just placing masses of troops on the table that end up getting wiped in one turn.

Since your just getting started, given how cheap the starter boxes are for wm/h I think it's a perfect way to start. $40, 3-4 models, doesn't sound like a lot, buy you get tons of play out of it. I don't think anyone can say the same for 40k. They have starter army boxes for like $80-$90, which are good values, and maybe like 15-20 models. Those models end up doing very little though, it's defiantly not enough to get "exciting" starter games going.

My money would be on just trying out the starter boxes, it gives you a good picture of the game, and you likely won't regret it if you turn back to 40k later.

>>49732346
Another thing to consider is GW's development cycle hell. Armies don't get updated for like 5+ years unless were talking about their poster boy's the space marines. And GW has all but given up on errata to fix rules problems. Not everything PP puts out is gold, but they actively try to release something for every faction during development cycles, and they stay on top of rules giving lots of errata and clarifications, and fixing that which has been found broken.

Also wm/h works well for 3-way games and more. You can have any number of players going in on their own, ending up with a huge battle royal. 40k only works with 1 on 1. You can do team battles just fine, but no crazy 3-way battles etc.

>>49733703
>40k only works with 1 on 1. You can do team battles just fine, but no crazy 3-way battles etc.
I'd strongly dispute that. Threat of assassination and fairly unadaptive missions don't lend themselves well to larger multi person games. 40k scales very easily up and down in that respect, particularly with their fairly lightweight objectives system and lack of hard organic interaction and casualty heavy base gameplay.