D&D 4e General /4eg/

My favorite 4E character was a Dwarven Hybrid Clerc|Fighter named Adrik. Made it from 1st level to Epic Tier wankery, until a Slaad managed to impregnate him and he died via chest burster.

It really makes me feel old to see that 4E is now considered retro-gaming.

>>49665554
It's less than a decade old in a hobby that's over 40 years old, it isn't retro

To the guy who was considering going trident/net in the last thread:

Fighter/Seeker hybrid looks brutally effective with Cleave + deft hurler. You'll need to put your WIS and STR equal (or close to) but it looks really great.

>>49665179
I had a lot of fun with the archery Warlord

I wish psions were the masters of mind control instead of wizards
Psions get some nice things, a close blast 5 save ends stun at level 9, living missile and living barrage, sudden control. But then you look at powers like slumber of the winter court and bewtiching gaze and it's obvious psions just can't compete

>>49667410
It'd be nice in general if powers got redistributed a bit more evenly. The PHB1 classes are all bloated from all the options they got over the years, while the poor ones in the later PHBs didn't have time to get as much love.

>>49669198
I'm just glad runepriest got serene blade in a dragon article.

I hate magic items, how balanced is the game using the Dark Sun rule where you get defense and attack boosts from level rather than from magic items?

>>49670123
It roughly follows the bonus progression from magic items, so numerically it's balanced.

>>49666737
Half-elf could work for it too, then you wouldn't tank your AC as much.

Half elf to pick up seeker RBA at-wills is also hilarious on Hunter.

>>49670123
I just let my players level up their gear as normal so the numbers fit and they get the extra few powers from the items, but for almost all intents and purposes it's inherent stuff.

>>49670123
I use the inherent bonus rules and give out free basic (PHB2 and 3) expertise feats to my players, and they never spend their gold on magic weapons or armor unless it has a really useful property. We've had absolutely no problems with the math that way.

Also, it lets me hand out interesting items to expand their toolkits, rather than mandatory math upgrades. Things like a flying broom, everlasting provisions, animate grappling hooks, etc.

>>49669346
They got one dragon magazine article, period.

Only Seeker got shafted as much as Runepriests did

>>49677008
Yes, but at least it was a good dragon article. Could use another at-will, though.

Only played a single 4e campaign so..
I had a Dragonborn Warden named Grey. Was never bloodied the entire campaign. (lucky i guess) Eventually i managed to get a smoking hot elf girl as a wifey, and opened a bar next to a dye shop our groups mad wizard opened. Shit was great. He'd use the local orphans as slave labor...and coupons...

>>49677522
It's funny how despite receiving so little support, Runepriests are not the worst leader class

Seekers are probably the worst controller class if you ignore Essentials, but Runepriests are almost certainly superior to Ardents and probably clerics

>>49677693
>Never being bloodied as a dragonborn warden

So either you weren't doing your job, or the campaign was bullshit easy

Either way you clearly missed out on most of the fun of being a Warden, and of being a dragonborn

>>49677735 DM didn't make it hard at all. Was the first and only time we ran 4e so he wanted to easy us in.

I wonder if you could make another class that uses the full discipline mechanic without it just being a total rehash of the monk?

Maybe a defender who uses full discipline powers that pair attacks with minor action marking abilities?

>>49678099
How about a Leader type whose full disciples movement side is about moving someone else?

...

That actually sounds like a pretty nice idea for an essentials style Warlord.

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>>49670123
>>49671929
>>49673793


I use a modified inherent-bonuses chart that uses different values for Attack/Damage (AD) Non-AC-Defense (NAD) Light-Armor-AC (LAC) and Heavy-Armor-AC (HAC)

I tried to fold Weapon focus and weapon expertise into the table, as well as fix the thing in Dark-Sun where magic-item armor is still required.

I also include a rule where "the magic items we get do the fun things, not the extra numbers."

>>49678565
Are elemental weapons "fun things"?

>>49678580

Not usually, no. The only time I've seen them used is to to synergize with feat/feature selection to make an optimized damage build work. Nobody ever takes them for fun.

>>49678565
I would disagree with your opinion on magic items

"fun" magic items tend to be "active" magic items, and players will forget to use active magic items, resulting in them being useless

>>49678186
Okay, how about this:

Class name: Lord

Class feature:
Protege
At-will Free action

Select an ally. That ally is your protege. You can only have one Protege at a time, and selecting a new one removes the condition from the previous. Whenever you could take an attack or move action, you can decide to have your Protege do so instead. You can only let your Protege take 1 action a turn instead of you.

Special: You can only use this power once/round.

Class feature:
Full disciples

*insert full desciples description here*
When the full disciple


At-will full disciples

Provoke an opening [attack]:

Make a basic attack. If it hits, the target has -2 on all opportunity attacks until the beginning of your next turn. If you made this attack against an Open enemy, deal +1d6 extra damage.

Provoke an opening [move]:

Move your speed. Enemies making opportunity attacks provoked by this movement are Open until the beginning of their turn. Open enemies grant combat advantage.

Alley-opp [attack]

Make a basic attack. If it hits, push the target 1 square. If there's an ally in the target's square, the target is also knocked prone and takes 1d6 extra damage.

Alley-opp [move]

Shift 1 square. You may enter the square of an enemy with this shift. If you are still in an enemy's square at the end of the turn, you shift into an adjacent square.

Hold still [Attack]

Make a basic attack. If it hits, the target takes -2 to any grab escape attempts it makes until the beginning of your next turn. If the target is grabbed, you have combat advantage on this attack.

Hold still [Move]

Take the Grab action.


Encounter(x2)

Look out!
Immediate Interrupt
Trigger: protege would be hit by an attack or needs to make a save.
Target: protege

Protege may choose:
- gains + 4 to a defense of his choice against the attack or +4 to his saving throw. If it was a death saving throw, and he succeeds, he may spend a surge.
- spend a surge to gain temp HP equal to the surge value + 1d6

>>49678565
But why jump through all these hoops if you can just handwave it and use the regular rules?

>>49679227
So he doesn't have to use items for bonuses is my guess.

Although, just plain handing out the expertise/defense feats is probably easier

>>49678843
Only if they are all super forgetful. Extra book-keeping for treadmill is boring. More powers are fun.

>>49679227
I do it because

1: It eliminates multiple treadmill feats

2: I don't have to track financial rewards carefully, and can give them out for role-play reasons, rather than game balance

3: NAD's suffer heavily under the RAW inherent bonuses, for no reason, unless you keep up with neck-slot-treadmill, which sort of defeats the stated intent of inherent bonuses

4: This IS my way of "handwaiving" it, and it's all in one document, instead of having to seperately "handwave" armor, and "handwave" neck-slot and "handwave" weapon-slot, and "handwave" expertise, and "handwave" focus etc... One-stop shopping for my handwaving needs.

>>49678565
Why have you tied the weapon/implement focus in there but not improved defenses?

Improved defenses is far more vital to a decent character than weapon/implement focus, even for strikers

>>49679331
I would say that expertise is tied with improved defenses, though, yes, focus is much less necessary. However, it's actually easier to fold-in focus and expertise at once than it is to fold one in separately, so I did them together. However, SOME players go for one of the other feat-bonus-to-NAD feats, instead of improved defenses, which improves variability. Admitedly, most go for ID, but some builds have a particular NAD-hole to fill that's more important that higher-agregate-bonus (before you ask, I do make the feat-bonus-to-NAD feats mutually exclusive.)

>>49679691
If feat-bonus-to-NAD feats are mutually exclusive, there is no reason to ever not take improved defenses

The builds that don't take ID typically don't take it because they're taking two of the superior NAD feats. If you make players choose only 1 feat-bonus-to-NAD feat, ID becomes so far and away the superior choice that the other feats may as well not exist, not even superior will's crazy secondary feature can make up for it

>>49679725
>If feat-bonus-to-NAD feats are mutually exclusive, there is no reason to ever not take improved defenses
There are in-fact builds that would prefer a single Superior NAD feat to Improved Defense, because as I said, certain builds are only significantly lacking in a single defense, and the secondary ability can indeed be tempting.

The Brawler-Fighter comes to mind first, wanting Superior Fortitude, because it makes his grapples harder to escape,.

>>49679785
The brawler fighter in this case has reflex and will so low that he can't do his job as a defender, he'd like to take superior fort, but it's not worth it if he can't also take improved defenses

I'm looking for a more combat based system. Would you guys here say 4e is better than Savage Worlds in that regard?

>>49679972

This is a 4e thread, so you'll probably get a yes from us. The Savage Worlds thread would probably tell you the inverse.

I'll say that if you want *only* a combat system, go 4E. If you want mechanical support for anything *other* than combat, look elsewhere. 4E is one of the best squad-based tactical games I've played, but everything outside of that mostly relies on ad-lib roleplaying rather than mechanics.

>>49680018
Didn't see a Savage Worlds thread is why I asked here. I've been leaning more to 4e after playing so much 3.5 and 5e. I'm all about the combat so I'll probably choose 4e then. Thanks!

>>49680018
You are mixing 4e with Strike! Also, I'd never say SW has better combat than 4e, topic or no, and I quite like SW.

>>49679972
Incidentally, I'd recommend you take a look at Strike! as well.

>>49680880
Strike! is only worth playing if you completely remove the non-combat elements.

>>49679825
You clearly don't understand how brawler fighters work. The build I am speaking of is functionally a martial-melee controller who can off-tank.

Yes, most builds prefer Improved Defenses over Superior [Insert Defense], but not every build.

>>49682748
The brawler fighter is the most aggresively single-target-focused defender, also "defender" and "controller" refer to basically the same thing, just one's ranged and the other's melee, they both are entirely focused on limiting and controlling what your opponents can do.

The brawler fighter wants to pick one dude, then render that one dude totally incapable of doing anything aside from attacking the brawler, they need another tank in the party to cover every other opponent, they pair well with wardens because of this

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Hey /tg/, in your opinion, what is the bare minimum number of powers a homebrew class needs to have?

The one I actually made has at least one power per build option, plus one, per level. Which got bloated fast.

I was thinking of making a few slim and specific classes for a campaign. Maybe three at-wills and two powers per level? The classes in question being Necromancer and Channeler, which is basically pic related.

So what's /tg/'s opinion on what feats should be marked as 'feat taxes'? I'd like to have a list for my players for our second campaign? Our first seemed a bit slow at first. I'm thinking this might be why.

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>>49683909
I hand out versatile expertise (house ruled so you can select two weapon types, two implement types or one weapon and one implement) and improved defenses for free, since that solves the math lagging a bit for PCs at high levels.

Oh, and I revert Melee Training to its original form, so it adds the full modifier to damage. Though players still have to spend a feat on it. Not that it comes up much with my group.

I also have to constantly remind them that masterwork armor is a thing, so please use it.

>>49683447
Look at PHB2 classes, then look at EVERYTHING from Essentials.
You have an example of it being right, and it being wrong.

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>>49665179
I left D&D after a bad series of experiences with 3.5, and have spent the last decade or so playing Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2e, OpenD6 Fantasy, and RuneQuest 6. I've seen how 4e and 5e are getting a good reception, and am curious at giving both an honest-to-God chance.

But I'm completely unfamiliar with 4e, and have been looking around a bit. I want to get the opinion of some of the most frank bastards on the internet. As unbiased as you can be, please, what am I going to get out of this game? What styles of fantasy is it good for accommodating (like high-fantasy vs gritty Glen Cook-like low fantasy)?

>>49688188
4e is a squad based tactical game. Its much more balanced than 3.5 and 5e. Martial characters are actually powerful instead of just being some guy with a sword. As for the style, I think that its very similar to a JRPG. High fantasy isn't a problem, but it isn't really designed for low.

>>49688188
1. The battlemat is MANDATORY. You positively need.

2. You must watch Jackie Chan movies before running a game. That is how players and the battlefield should interact.

3. Do you like Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Ogre? Did you enjoy Super Robot Wars and Front Mission? Have you played XCOM and wanted your players to feel like they are in it?

Then 4e is for you.

PS, make sure to download the character builder. It'll make your life so much easier.

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>>49665179
Character art bump.

Does anyone have any good stories?

>>49688188

4E is good if you want a very tactical game. 4E requires a mat and minis/tokens. Otherwise you just aren't playing 4E. Design your encounters to take place in interesting locations with environments that everyone can interact with, or you are playing bad 4E.

If you don't want to do that, play 5e.

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>>49665179
Who would be a good deity for a good-aligned dude who wants to be a champion to protect the people of his polis in an area based on Classical Greece?

The City Champion is an official title granted to the finest warrior of the polis. They are an advisor to the city's generals, and he takes part in all Assembly meetings. He leads a personal bodyguard unit (technically the only men he may command for checks and balances reasons) of 50 (which during war-time may be increased to 100) which he can lead to either help the army during war or basically go combat some of the darkness in the countryside.

He wants the office and plans on using it to do some good and fight for people. When he is capable, he will try to solve as many polis disputes that go to war with one-on-one combat, and I play him as a shock trooper with a little bit of battlefield control, and sees the position as a moral obligation to do what you can to protect the people of your city.

What deity from the books would work with that sort of guy?

>>49690827
Erathis (civilization domain, but unaligned, not good), Moradin (protection domain, lawful good) or Bahamut (protection and justice domains, lawful good)

>>49688559
>>49688756
>>49690664
Neat. Thanks for your opinion.

How well to monks function as strikers? Or wardens as defenders? I want to play one or the other in an upcoming planescape game.

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>>49692077
>How well to monks function as strikers?
Similar to sorcerers, as their single target damage generally isn't quite as good as the other strikers, but they make up for it with multi-target damage.

Monk mobility is amazing, too, so they have an easy time getting into optimal position for punching everything.

>>49692077
Both are very multi-target focused

Monks in particular are pretty poor at being strikers prior to level 11, when they get a second flurry of blows target and access to starblade flurry

Also, this is 4e, monks have unarmed strike, but should never be fighting unarmed, weapon enchantments and the various monk weapon feats are too good to pass up. If you want to fight unarmed, make a fighter

>>49692391
>>49692397
I see, are either a viable/good class? I've played plenty of other defenders and strikers but never these two. Nor have I really seen them used.

>>49692397
You can get by just fine by ignoring the weapon feats and using a ki focus. It's sub-optimal, but it still works.

>>49692423
Both are viable. Neither is the absolute best in their role, but they do their jobs pretty well.

>>49692423
Yeah, they both work just fine

But pay very close attention to your power picks with both of them. Wardens need good powers to be sticky, and despite FoB favoring targeting opponents you haven't hit that turn, it's almost always better for monks to favor burst attacks, hitting everyone at once

>>49692423

Both are very viable. Monks are strongest when fighting minions but are far from bad vs a single target (Rain of Hammers Ki Focus + Blistering Flourish + Action Point) can lead to a hilarious street-fighter like combo against a single target.

>>49692464

There is also the fact that monks are implement users, not weapon users. So you can easily have the dagger on hand but kick a guy. My current monk keeps daggers up her sleeves for ranged basic attacks but mostly fights unarmed fluffwise.

>>49692464
>>49692468
>>49692494
Alright, guess i'll debate between those or a rogue, which i've also never really played before. But they seem kinda one note with daggermaster stuff.

>>49692508
Rogues are sort of similar to rangers in that they're very damage-focused, but daggermaster isn't the one and only rogue build

hand crossbow sniper, rapier charger, shortsword shock trooper, longsword opportunity-attacker, all viable

>>49692077
Be careful with Wardens as defenders. Several of their powers can end in your character becoming a pincushion.

>>49688559
>High fantasy isn't a problem, but it isn't really designed for low.

I think compared to the other WotC era D&D, it does low fantasy quite well. Caster classes are not required for healing and blasting, magic items can be sorta sidestepped by inherent bonuses, and focus on fluff/crunch separation means you can easily reflavor things to be more low fantasy.

It has a hard time doing low power, however.

>>49683447
As long as you give a few options every level I think it's okay. It's not a main book class, it's someone's thematic homebrew, it doesn't need to be as broad as could be. You don't want to fall in the Vampire trap and not give people any choices at all, though. That's not a class, that's a single character.

I made a Dragonborn Inspiring Warlord who dual-classed into Bard. He was a drill sergeant who made the team perform better by yelling at them. I fluffed recovering HP from Inspiring Word and Majestic Word as the other's basically recovering their will to fight and pushing on through the pain.

>>49693665
To be fair, better you being a pincushion than the rogue or wizard. It is kinda your job.

>>49696807
Wardens handle being a pincushion better than other defenders anyway, they have more healing powers, and boatloads of health

>>49696613
My group has a dragonborn warlord that does similar. Except she mostly spends her time psyching herself up, because the dice gods hate her.

Is there anything else I can bring to the table as a sentinel druid of spring? Our party desperately requires a healer so I've been fulfilling that role but they all seem more useful overall.

>>49699528
They are adequate healers. Consider multiclass Cleric for healing word buffing feats.

>>49699851
Does that even work? I thought errata broke them down into Healing Word (Cleric) and Healing Word (Sentinel).

>>49699864
As stupid as it is, compendium lists it as the same thing (at least according to the one on funin.space).

>>49699851
>>49699864
>>49699889
Is multiclassing even viable in 4e?

>>49700012
Full multi-classing, spending feats to swap out powers, is usually a really bad idea. Use hybrid instead, if you want to go half-and-half.

But taking a multi-class feat for an extra trained skill and/or minor feature, plus qualifying for class feats and paragon paths? Holy fuck yes.

>>49700012
Yes?

Most characters will take multiclass feats. There's no reason not to take them, and they tend to be pretty excellent.

Paragon multiclassing and paragon hybrids are not that great, however.

>>49700043
>>49700067
Those multiclass feats look really nice, and the fact they're once per day use will alleviate minmaxing concerns.

>>49700043
There are a few powers that are worth the power swap feat

The barbarian level 9 daily Rage of the Death Spirit is very powerful in the hands of a fighter. The rogue level 7 encounter power Snap Shot is great for ranged rangers, and fighters have powers that every strength-based class would be willing to spend a feat to have. Sometimes even more classes than that considering Rain of Steel and Goad of Blood

>>49666607
Music is thousands of years old but 70's and 80's musics is considered retro

>>49702334
Don't forget low slash from rogue.

>>49705845
Low slash is amazing, but a bit hard to use due to using dexterity and requiring a light blade

I've heard that vampires are prety bad in 4e. Why is this?

>>49707341
The Vampire class has very little support, no choice in powers (which is bad because the powers are a bit all over the place), and is a bit MAD, as well as having some pretty bad healing surge mechanics to simulate needing to drink blood.

hi all, starting 4e with some friends, we have no experience whatsoever, i often read that it's important to mak the battlefield interactive. can i get some more practical examples of how to do it right?(also if you have some premade quest which shows it woud be great as well)

>>49708224
It's hard to describe

A lot of it is getting your players into the right mindset, which varies from group to group. Some players only need to hear "There are trees" to think about breaking branches to create difficult terrain or climbing them for high ground, others need to be shoved into combat in a room slowly filling with lava before they think about how to interact with their environment.

Start with walls in a dungeon, walls are easy to interact with, just make sure they're irregular to keep them interesting. Mention torches on the walls and see if your players take the initiative and try to create low-light zones, or suggest the walls look "crumbly" and see if players climb or try to break through them

>>49708428
>>49708224
An idea I'd employ with new groups would be, if you are using power cards, to add an "interact with environment or improvise an action" card.

Try to apply traps in combat. Also, realize that "traps" can mean any sort of hazard; shelves packed with vials of acid that could topple over, pointy bones barely buried just below soft ground, or barrels of explosives can be just as much traps as a pit or trip-wire.

That said, if you are just starting out, run a few rounds of straightforward combat first.

>>49708512
>>49708224
Just add 'knee high rocks/garbage that would cause anyone to fall over if you were pushed against them' to the encounter room. Make the first ones very obvious.

Another good trick is having the environment damaged on misses.

A missed fire spell could burn the carpet, a missed attack could destroy cover, etc.

>>49705885
>>49705845
Scouts and Fey Hexblades love it

>>49671653
>half-elf hunter worshiping Sehanine
>shooting magic missiles from your shortbow

Is there a place to find a 4e game? Most other people I ask go "Ugh, 4e" and won't speak of it again.

I know r20, but are there other sites?

>>49710109
ENworld was pretty friendly to 4e I think. Could check that.

>>49705845
>>49705885
>>49709095
>Scouts and Fey Hexblades love it
So do monks with a dagger in their off-hand

>>49710109
I run a Sunday 4e game. It's on hiatus today because I'm in the hospital, but if you wanted to add me on skype, I'd see if you could fit in the game when I get to a real computer and not my phone.

I'm Mjorkk on skype

Granted, we DO use r20 for our map.

>>49713770

What's the time you run? That's the important part. I have another sunday game I run.

Thac0