40k what if

>>49650227
40k wouldn't suck as much

>>49650227
The Imperial Army and Space Marine legions would stomp their asses.

>>49650227
The great crusade would not have worked. Some of the HH novels touch on the idea and simply put, space is too big and too varied to use normal human troopers.

>>49650699
Which is retarded because there's LESS spess marines so the vastness and bigness of space would actually benefit the larger body of more easily trained and equipped troops.

Further proving the the entirety of the HH fluff is terribad.

>>49650227
Toward the end of the Crusade they did. Or at least they were added in masses to the bottom of the totem pole.

>>49650718
> HH fluff is terribad.

You mean 40K fluff? The only reason the Imperium exists as a super power is being of the Space Marines. Humans cannot stand against Orks, Eldar, and whatever horrors out there.

>>49650790
But the morale bonus just from having your Primary on the battlefield seems huge. Admitedly the Guardsmen wouldn't think of themselves as his sons...

>>49650227
They would never be loyal to primarchs, Great Crusade would fail, you would make another guardwank thread.

>>49650699
Yet humans were perfectly able to do it before the Imperium. SA are mentioned to be second only to Marines in quality and made up almost a 3rd of the Army's fighting force. And towards the end of the Crusade Army was taking up the offensive and going at it alone without Marines.

Marines were a convenience, not the end all. Emperor probably got a massive boner from Thunder Warriors and thought it would be a good idea to use the same thing to unite the rest of the galaxy. That turned out well. Should have used them more as force multipliers closer to himself, so they'd never get too far from him to get corrupted and he'd be able to have them as a strong defence against Army units going rogue.

>>49650790
>Humans cannot stand against Orks, Eldar, and whatever horrors out there.

Yet they did before Marines and do to this day, since Marines are not present on every planet in the galaxy or on every battlefield. They do so much that some regiments are specialized in dealing with, for example, orks.

>>49650819
Humans were able to do it because their Men of Iron did the job for them. Also helped that your warmachines aren't trying to murder, fuck, eat, or all of the above at once at you.

>>49650227
>What happens to the 40k setting if instead of leading armies of space marines
the 40k setting doesn't exist anymore because space marines are kind of what put it on the map and continue to pay the bills

>>49650848
>Men of Iron did the job for them

Do you have some evidence that MoI did all the work for humans across the galaxy? I don't see much source on colonies having MoI doing all the work.

Also, DAoT humans had mostly the same stuff as Imperium. Predators and Rhinos were the go to vehicles of the colonies. Whatever technical marvels and black hole guns they had, were most likely limited to the very core worlds, so they probably had very little to do with how things went down in the colonies.

>>49650900
They had power armor and augmentations.

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>>49650227
The Great Crusade would have taken much longer or just not have been possible. Space Marines were intended as shock troops to quickly overwhelm even the greatest of enemies and destroy. Not to mention the fact that a fuck ton of IG would have been required- IG can fight the Xenos that they happened across, but there'd be 1000x more bodies. Also SM are damn near immortal, so they can continue the fight indefinitely, where as IG would need to retire and new troops be brought in. Drop pod assaults would no longer have been possible either. All in all, the Great Crusade probably couldn't happen without them.

>>49650956
You mean just like humans in 30k and 40k?

>>49650969
>thinks Army was Guard

>>49650971
Marines are not humans.

>>49650227

40k would be a more interesting and overall better setting.

>>49651020
I didn't say Marines, I said humans.

It's possible that the galaxy became a much crueler and more horrifying place since the Old Night, things that didn't exist before human civilization fell. For example, maybe before the Old Night you didn't have powerful, nightmarish things like the Black Judges.

If such things only existed after the Old Night, then it's possible that the Astartes Legions were necessary to counter them.

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>>49650814
>implying primarchs wouldn't be just as good at leading IG as Macharius

>>49650227
I recall an old piece of fluff that essentially stated that whole regiments were wiped out, unable to keep up with their space marine commanders, multiply this by 100x for primarchs.

>>49651123
So does that mean Marines were wiped out during the Heresy because they couldn't keep up with their Primarchs? Seems like shitty leadership if you ask me.

>>49651095
>Random mortal who doesn't have share geneseed, psyche and mentality of primarch.

>>49651140
He means imperial army leaded by marines.

>>49651140
No, primarchs were able to lead space marines, space marines weren't able to lead normal humans. They asked too much of their allies leading them to destruction. Think WW2 germany with its allies.

>>49651159
Forgot to add.
>Ever having bond with primarch
Imagine average humans lead by Angron or Kurze. They would slaughter their own armies.

>>49650833
If they did Space Marines wouldn't exist.

Marines fill a VERY important role on the battlefield, one that simple humans couldn't perform.

>>49651200
Exactly, in terms of both mental and physical, space marines could keep up with primarchs and follow their exact battleplans to the letter.

>>49651202
That happened with Angron and they did, theirs sidebar fluff where an adept queries the fact that orks on a planet have been defeated but imperial army casualties keep mounting subsequently.

>>49651220
>If they did Space Marines wouldn't exist.

So, let me get this straight, you're saying humans did not spread into the galaxy and did not colonize thousands upon thousands of worlds during the DAoT without Marines? You're saying humans didn't defend those worlds during the Age of Strife. And you're saying there is not a single battlefield in M41 that doesn't have Space Marines doing everything?

So why do we even have PDF and Guard?

>Marines fill a VERY important role on the battlefield, one that simple humans couldn't perform.

So do tanks and planes, yet humans were perfectly capable of waging war before those things.

DAoT humans had tech that would slaughter 40k humanity. Black hole guns, and other crazy stuff, man.

>>49651245
>You're saying humans didn't defend those worlds during the Age of Strife.
that's kind of why they were for the most part totally enslaved and the emperor had to resort to drastic measures

>>49651200
Surely primarchs were far more capable than mere Space Marines, no? So how were they able to dial down their awesome to levels equal to a marine but wouldn't be able to do it for humans?

>>49651260
And others weren't. Some even fought and pushed back his space marines.

Think of IG primarchs for each regiment

>>49651261
We're talking about how good of a leader they were, and you surely must realize not all of them were taht good at leading even marines to begin with. Guilliman would have found a way, sure, what about Perturabo or Angron?

>>49651261
Of 18 primarchs only half were reasonable beings. You can't conquer galaxy with them.

>>49651276
Think of power armor and bolters for each regiment, and geneseed. Think of rhinos and thunderhawks and own fleet, wait i've seen this before...

>>49651159
>Random mortal who doesn't have share geneseed, psyche and mentality of primarch
>implying you need to be genetically related to your soldiers to be a good leader
If a 100% normal human Alexander the Great in spaaace Solar Macharius can lead a crusade rivaling the great crusade all the non shit tier primarchs could pull it off. Papa smurf even had his own planet before the emperor found him and he didn't have space marines there.

>>49651324
Conquering planet, crusade =/= conquering galaxy.
In addition Macharius had space marines.

>>49651309
>>49651307
So you agree that >>49651123's statement about primarchs being flat out 100 times worse at commanding humans than space marines would be is somewhat faulty?

>>49651324
Conquering a thousand worlds with the infrastructure of the Imperium behind you is not the same as forging the Imperium from a single planet. Not saying that he was bad or anything, mind you, but the scale is completely different.

>>49651348
It's not faulty because you're saying someone worth 100 having to plan for someone worth 10 is better than giving him someone else worth 50. Dorn flat out stated that a marine was worth 10 humans, and that's comeing from one of the most "reasonable" commanders. And the sheer amount of humans you would have to ferry around and equip to achieve the same objectives of a marine force would strain logistics even more, if we want to account for that too.

>>49651399
Ok, so Space Marines suck at leading Guard because Marines are way better than humans and thus demand more than humans are capable of putting out, right? And Primarchs would be 100 times worse leading humans since they're even better than Marines (as anon said), right?

So by this logic primarchs are bad at leading Marines as well, because they're better than Marines and would demand more of them than they're capable of putting out. Or, if primarchs are capable of toning down their demands to meet with those of Space Marines, why are they incapable of doing it to humans?

Remember, >>49651123 did say those regiments perished because of the Marine commanders demanded too much of them, not because the situation as a whole was bad and there was nothing even the commanders could do. If the commanders had been able to know the capabilities of their troops better, they wouldn't have led them to their destruction so easily. Know your enemy and know yourself, and all that Sun Tzu crap.

You don't take a truck, put a gun on it and expect it to perform like a heavy tank. Likewise you don't take a heavy tank and expect it to do light tank duty. Different tools need to be used differently. You don't use humans like Marines and you don't use Marines like humans. You think Marines in flak armed with a lasgun, adhering to Guard tactics and training, would be able to outperform humans using space marine equipment, training and tactics?

>>49651506
You think of all primarchs as wise and calm commanders while they half were psychopats.
>You think Marines in flak armed with a lasgun, adhering to Guard tactics and training, would be able to outperform humans using space marine equipment, training and tactics?
Yes because he is bigger, tougher, stronger, has two hearts an spits acid.

>>49651506
>so Space Marines suck at leading Guard because Marines are way better than humans and thus demand more than humans are capable of putting out, right?

Right

>And Primarchs would be 100 times worse leading humans since they're even better than Marines (as anon said), right?

Most of them would perform much worse, yes

>So by this logic primarchs are bad at leading Marines as well

Some of them were

>Or, if primarchs are capable of toning down their demands to meet with those of Space Marines, why are they incapable of doing it to humans?

Because some of them were warriors and not leaders or strategists.

Dude, primarchs were made to lead space marines, and those marines performed better than the army. That's it. Could you have a crusade without marines? Maybe, but it would have fared much more poorly.

>>49650848
for some reason I cant see the Men of iron doing all the fighting

>>49651564
>That's it. Could you have a crusade without marines? Maybe, but it would have fared much more poorly.
But muuh HFY, muh guardsmen reeeeee.

>>49651550
>You think of all primarchs as psychopats commander while they half were wise and calm.

FTFY

>Yes because he is bigger, tougher, stronger, has two hearts an spits acid.

How much of that helps when getting shot with a bolter while charging at the enemy with a bayonet?

>>49651564
>Maybe, but it would have fared much more poorly.

Then again, no Horus Heresy.

>>49651597
That's just another brand of HFY, marines are more than human but set apart their humanity, it's a quite recurrent theme even in BL novels so nothing subtle about it, just most here like to forget about it.

>>49651602
>IG tactics is just charging at the enemy with a bayonet

I'm going to indulge you and say that the commander being chenkov is not that likely.

>>49651621
The heresy didn't specifically happen because the main armed branch was made of space marines.

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>>49651602
>while charging at the enemy with a bayonet?
Marines have superhuman reaction and speed, they are equal to eldar, without armor you wouldn't even see them, imagine if orks were superfast and agile, this is how marines work without armor.

>>49651506
I think anon wanted to say, that many Marines only thought on their terms, regarding strategies and tactics. Which lead to the failure of normal human regiments.
Space Marines wouldn't have problems following the orders of their Primarch, because they are made to perform on a much higher level than regular humans. A week without food, fighting for two days without sleep, lost an arm and got multiple stabs into the body? The marine won't be hindered too much by this, while Joe Soldier would be long dead.

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Wait so the Scions?

>>49651621
>Then again, no Horus Heresy
Then Horus would rebel with imperial army.

>>49650227
...but they did. And post HH they had to stop so that Primarchs wouldn't have direct command over such vast numbers again.

>>49651245
You don't understand what Marines actually do in combat situations, go read up on their fluff before mass shitposting. The role of marine forces in combat is far more complex then just being "better humans".

>>49651646
>without armor you wouldn't even see them

So why do they even bother with armour?

>>49651752
Protection, spacesuits, and even more strength.

>>49650227
The primarchs DID control the imperial armies.

The separation of Marine, Guard, and Navy forces came after the Horus Heresy to ensure no man could control every force.

>>49651752
Because you don't need to be seen by the enemy to get hit by shrapnel and stray rounds

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>>49651773
It was reference.

>>49651788
man Cena got some crooked ass nips

>>49651767
>>49651781
If you're so fast you turn invisible, you'd also be fast enough to dodge bullets and shrapnel just find.

Just give them a light environment suit and they're golden. Just zipping across the battlefield without enemies even realizing they're there until their heads start separating from their shoulders and all their shit explodes.

>>49650227

the great crusade would've been slower and more bloody. against some enemies the imperial guard would fail or take high losses, the space marines are an untiring weapon of precision which in the primach's hand could overcome anything

>>49651748
And you'd better read up on fluff other than Marines if you think nothing ever happens without Marines.

>>49651644
>>49651686
Less autonomous military units with less centralized command would also mean that one man couldn't take his army of super-soldiers and light the galaxy aflame that easily.

I'm sure there would have been plenty of rebellions, but they would have been less capable than space marine legions.

>>49651806
But what of the effect of the Primarchs fighting alongside normal humans?

>>49651803
Being superfast doesn't make them invulnerable, eldar are still killed by gunfire. But still they would have equal chance.

>>49651840
Against equal army of humans pretty easily, keep in mind that mortals more easily corrupted by chaos than astartes.

>>49651840
That's what the Imperium was after the heresy, exactly because the heresy did happen. Before that, even taking marines out of the question, you had command of a shitload of fighting men and the whole fleet accompanying them.

>>49651862
Nothing , you have half of imperial armies butchered by own cruel primarchs. In fact heresy would start even sooner.

>>49651245
Wow your autistic...

Guard do A LOT of shit, but there are enemies and situations where they CANT win or perform the duties needed to succeed. THAT is why the Marines exist, to fill those roles that would be impossible for normal humans. Without the Marines to kill off the most insane of threats in the 40k universe the Guard would lose, easily.

>>49651245
>So, let me get this straight, you're saying humans did not spread into the galaxy and did not colonize thousands upon thousands of worlds during the DAoT without Marines? You're saying humans didn't defend those worlds during the Age of Strife.

Considering the Age of Strife completely fucked humanity, tore them from their golden age, left humanity as a dwindling race, spread out among the stars and left alone... Yeah, they DID spread, and they lost big time.

Its fucking 40k mate, without Marines the imperium would have collapsed under extreme threats and left of prey to far stronger and more sadistic races.

The WHOLE point of the creation of the Space Marine is that the Emperor knew, after watching humanity try for 29,000 years, that the basic armies weren't enough. And thus we have space marines.

>>49651983
the age of strife happened because a Incredibly powerful forces were fucking up the galaxy

>>49652007
They are fucking up it all time, that is the point you need force to counter them.

>>49651876
But even they were not as capable as Marines.

When a traitor Army attacks a loyalist planet, they'd have a harder time smashing its defences than a Marine legion would have.

>>49651983
>Wow your autistic...

Yeah, dear god someone actually reads what someone else posts.

Here's the thing, anon, in your world having no Marines equals only Guard. But have you ever considered that Guard is what it is because there's the Marines? they don't have to be more. If Marines did not exist, Guard would have to operate differently. Or at least there would have other forces to fill a similar role, like stormtroopers. Give them power armour and land raiders. All the resources that went to marine chapters are now at the disposal of other Imperial groups.

>and they lost big time

So did everyone else.

>Its fucking 40k mate, without Marines

GW would put something else as the poster boys.

>The WHOLE point of the creation of the Space Marine is that the Emperor knew, after watching humanity try for 29,000 years, that the basic armies weren't enough. And thus we have space marines.

So why was his plan to get rid of them and reduce them at best to a garrison force, which was a major grievance to some of the primarchs?

>>49652224
>Give them power armour and land raiders.
Just name them space marines then.

>>49652224
>Here's the thing, anon, in your world having no Marines equals only Guard.

No, no one here said that... Your just trying to respond to something like a retard

>But have you ever considered that Guard is what it is because there's the Marines?

Yes, we all understand this. The Guard literally wouldn't exist without the Space Marines. The Great Crusade itself wouldn't have happened in the way it did to form them. Guard have limitation entirely because marines were developed alongside them.

>>49652224
>If Marines did not exist, Guard would have to operate differently. Or at least there would have other forces to fill a similar role, like stormtroopers.

Stormtroopers CANT do a lot of the shit Marines do, why the fuck do you think the Marines were made in the first place? See my earlier point about both military forces developing at the same time. Go send a group of Stormtroopers into the unknown of a Hive Ship, go send them to fight for 3+ weeks of literally endless fighting. Hell try to send them down drop pods without dying from the stress of re-entry.

Saying stupid shit like "but if we removed them other forces would fill their role" doesn't work the way you think it does.

>>GW would put something else as the poster boys.
>"I've run out of points and must spew stupid fannon shit"

k mate, sorry you stooped so low

>>49652224
>So why was his plan to get rid of them and reduce them at best to a garrison force, which was a major grievance to some of the primarchs?

Because that was a FEAR of the primarchs, about an event decades away and also a NATURAL result of killing everything threatening humanity? Are you just playing dumb now... I think you are...

ITT Maximum autism

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How come the people who think they can fix the fluff are the people who have clearly read the least about the fluff?

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They still have Titans.

>>49650833
No, they didn't. Humanity was scattered and enslaved. It was only when the Space Marines arrived did humanity thrive.

>>49651271
Name some. You can't.

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>>49650900
The primary reason the age of strife was so fucking brutal was humanity had become so complacent. They had the moi doing all the work for them, produceing their goods, fighting their wars, and remembering their stcs. And flying their ships, in "Death of Integrity" the DAOT ship they find would run on a FRACTION of what the current imperium ships needed. Whilst also being significantly more powerful. And every stc within the ship was linked to the AI.

Eventually most of the AI went rouge. However the ship within the hulk was trapped in the warp with its crew. And saw the destruction of the universe by chaos. So when they arrived in modern wh40k and attempted to war a nearby planet. The captain and crew were killed for heresy. Driving the ship's A.I to madness.

>>49651071
And the black judges were even so bad it was a contributing factor in what drove the Iron warriors to heresy. But mostly it was noone giving a shit about them doing it.

>>49650227
The Great Crusade and Horus Hersey would've been really boring or really awesome depending on whether or not you have a boner for artillery.

What about marines being field officers, e.g. a scout directing a couple sniper teams, a tactical leading a platoon, a devastator supervising several heavy weapons teams. Their auspex and superior comms alone would double the effectiveness of any attached squad, their experience and tactical acumen would double it again.

I imagine the first few battles would go poorly, but marines are more than capable of adjusting their strategies to accommodate a lower tier of soldier, and I'm thinking long term where 12 generations would serve under the same marine.

I know the fluff says something about guardsmen not being able to keep up, but I'd like to know what you think.

>>49651020
Marines are superior stage of human evolution

>>49652759
>"What is DAoT?" for $300.

>>49652964

>no personality
>eunuchs
>single-minded
>basically slaves

>superior

>>49653021
A bygone era that will never come back as said in the fluff.

It's like citing Pre-Fall Eldar as an argument for Craftworlds not needing aspect warriors.

For the record, just because it apparently needs to be posted here.

The guard ARE capable of fighting pretty much any threat marines are, just with way higher losses and supply requirements.

>>49652964
I don't think you know what "evolution" means.

>>49653098
>It's like citing Pre-Fall Eldar as an argument for Craftworlds not needing aspect warriors.

It's very nice that you specified it as "Craftworlds" and not "Eldar", because DE, Harlequins, Outcast, and Exodites do just fine without aspects.

>>49653288
>Exodites

Regularly require craftworlders to bail them out.

>DE

Have their own version of aspect warriors. The Incubi.

>Harlequins

Their training and gear are superior to aspect warriors and they are a not a people/race. They are groups of wandering super killers with an agenda.

>Outcasts

Still craftworlders.

>>49653363
>Regularly require craftworlders to bail them out.

Because the only time we hear about them is in Craftworld fluff.

>The Incubi

And they mostly serve as bodyguards. The existence of the DE society does not rest on their shoulders.

>they are a not a people/race

They're also not Craftworlders, they're their own group. Just like DE and Exodites.

>Still craftworlders.

Corsairs in particular specifically are ones who have exiled themselves from the craftworlds and operate outside of the paths and can even end up joining the DE.

>>49653066
>>Eunuchs
This isn't cannon anon. Space marines are confirmed to have huge dicks. But are to autistic to interpret love.

>>49654063
Not meant literally. Point is that they may as well be.

>>49653021
You mean back when imperial knights were just farm equipment?

>>49653228
Where are these supplies going to come from when you have to supply an army of 2 million for a year of travel before you even begin your campaign?

>>49654713
And Rhinos and Predators were widespread among colonial militaries.

>>49654781
Yes, the point here is the tech level was off the charts compared to anything the can be accomplished in the 41st millennium.

>>49654823
>rhinos and predators
>off the charts

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>>49654833
DAoT:
>Widespread immunity to all diseases and poisons (The Panacea).
>Baneblades were originally considered a "light" vehicle. LIGHT. The Baneblade was on the level of and as common as a Leman Russ (maybe not even that) back then.
>Far more widespread use of anti-gravity.
>Teleportation.
>Guns that can travel their ammo back in time so they can hit their target with 105% accuracy.
>Robots with the strength of Space Marines that numbered in levels close to the Imperial Guard.
>Imperator Titans were practically universal in most planet's PDF.
>Terminator armor was used for deep space mining. Meaning people back then used Terminator armor simply as protection from rocks.
>Weapons that could shoot enemy ships in the middle of a warp jump.

>>49654936
>Widespread immunity to all diseases and poisons (The Panacea).

You got evidence that it was widespread?

>Baneblades were originally considered a "light" vehicle. LIGHT. The Baneblade was on the level of and as common as a Leman Russ (maybe not even that) back then.

Nice may-may you got there.

>Far more widespread use of anti-gravity.

Even Guard gets anti-grav in the form of grav chutes. Then there's servo-skulls, civilian hover vehicles mentioned in novels, etc.

>Teleportation.

Also available for Imperium. Teleport attacks are one of the main ways of making boarding action in BFG.

>Guns that can travel their ammo back in time so they can hit their target with 105% accuracy.

And how widespread were these?

>Robots with the strength of Space Marines that numbered in levels close to the Imperial Guard.

Source on those numbers?

>Imperator Titans were practically universal in most planet's PDF.

Source?

>Terminator armor was used for deep space mining. Meaning people back then used Terminator armor simply as protection from rocks.

Wonder how they were using terminator armour back then when it was invented in 30k by mixing common hazardous environment exo-suit technology with dreadnought technology.

>Weapons that could shoot enemy ships in the middle of a warp jump.

And what stops regular weapons from shooting a ship making a warp jump?

>>49653228
>Higher supply requirements

You can field a 3 regiments, 5 tanks, 12 Basilisks, and 2 Thunderbolts for what it costs to train and deploy a squad of space marines

>>49655071
We've only seen 3 ships from the Dark Age of Technology.

Number one is basically a walking talking STC, with a forge able to make most things built into the ship itself, and armed to the teeth with shit like singularity cannons that fire at tachyon speeds.

Number two is a small frigate with an Artificial Intelligence able to hack and control power armor and enemy ships. It could instantly kill a Battle Barge with a single shot from one of its cannons, and turned all the space marines around it into helpless puppets dancing on its strings. It could hack anything and was untouchable.

Number three is a smaller ship used by a chaos sorcerer from the dark age of technology which IIRC could blow up planets, but it's been a while since I read Daemon World.

>>49652781
Mankind was still capable of thinking and providing for itself and building things on it's own with the AI. They ultimately won The War of Iron and had the majority of STCs available to them after the fact. What truly fucked over humanity hard was when the Men of Iron happened right before the occurrence of the Age of Strife. Just when the benefit of having a galactic community to help you recover was vital they got cut off from all outside sources. The final nail in the coffin was the Horus Heresy and Daemons corrupting Forge Worlds and the Emperor dying before being able to replace the Mechanicum with actual scientists.

I don't know why the Emperor let the martians become such religious crackpots. He must have known about the Ebony Dragon and the adverse affects it would have on the planets inhabitants.

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>>49656220
>the Ebony Dragon
Void Dragon. Damn it.

>>49656095
>It could hack anything and was untouchable.
Why the fuck are the Mechanicum or the Emperor or whoever building battle suits without closed systems?

>>49656312
Pretty sure they are closed, the AI just didn't give a fuck. It was pretty much straight up magic. As realistic hacking shouldn't allow you to take complete control over the suit, given it's controlled by the marine's nervous system.

>>49656095
Divine Right was lost in the warp around M26 as serves no as an Emperor class battleship.

Blade of Infinity was lost in M13 (2,000-5,000 years before warp travel even became a thing) and continues to emerge from the warp, heralding doom.

>IIRC could blow up planets

Don't remember the novel saying anything like that. It was just a fancy ship. The planet went nuts on its own.

>>49654063
>Space marines are confirmed to have huge dicks
Smut isn't canon either

>>49656451
I'll have you know that the Inquisitorial bathhouse scene that Anon is referencing is completely canon.

>>49651324
>Papa smurf even had his own planet
More like 500 planets. Ultramar was alreadyy a thing before E-Money arrived, iirc

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>>49653066
>>no personality
U wot.
>eunuchs
They have junk
>single-minded
Is it bad
>basically slaves
Who rescued Imperium and deposed corrupt masters many times

>>49650227
that's literally what emps intended for the Primarchs to do. It was only when Chaos Hijacked their birthing pods did emps turn around and create the space marines to act as his ace in the hole until he could get his boys back together.

So if the Primarchs are leading normal armies that means they were never separated, which means they all grew up with each other and under emps directly so a lot of the horrible shit that would shape each one just doesn't happen, Angron doesn't get the nails and so on.

the great crusade goes as planned. The heresy, if it happens at all, is not nearly as devastating as it was in normal lore, and the Imperial Truth is spread throughout the universe making it harder for chaos to get a foothold.

>>49650718
You are not looking at the matter from the view point of logistics. Image this a smallish number of battle groups, some of which have very potent units mixed in or in command of said battle group. Space Marine legionnaires, Titans, and Knights are good examples. They cost a disproportional amount to rise a unit of them, but not as much of a cost increase for field upkeep. The battle groups that would be likely to get into the harshest fights have those unit in them. They show up with a few hundred thousand soldiers of the Imperial army ( land and space chain of command be merged at a high but in field level, imperial guard and Navy used to be the same service ) and around 40 to 60 thousand legionnaires plus a primarch.

The time it would take to end the primary combat of taking a plant would be measured in hours most of the time. The loss would be light most of the time for the attacker do to raw overwhelming force. The 3 to 5 weeks it would take to get the support fleet in theater to have the plant over to would typically be more then the need amount to finish off most of the resistance. The locals KNOW who won and the battle group moves off to do the whole thing over again.

Using just Imperial army to try that takes more, takes more loss from fighting longer, and needs more effort to keep supplied in the field because of it.

The inverse was the original case. Human generals led Space Marines in the Great Crusade. Horus was originally just the Emperor's favorite commander.