D&D 4e General /4eg/

>>49602720
What did I do to you? ;_;

>>49602720
My favorite is the Eladrin. They hit all the right notes for me for "fey-like but still relatable" and their teleport power is really nice.

My next few favorite races are Drow, Human, Dwarf, Kalashtar and Warforged.

>>49602831
Aren't Eladrin basically elves?

>>49602709
Fire and Thunder

Fire because desert wind monks are cool and there's a goofy pyromancer wizard build I really like. Thunder because all thunder spells can be fluffed as shouting REALLY LOUD!

>>49602865
>Thunder because all thunder spells can be fluffed as shouting REALLY LOUD!
>tfw you're literally dovahkin

>>49602720
Half-elf and revenant.

Cause I'm a munchkin.

>>49602864
They are but they are also "special"

>>49603529
I have only been in one game where revenant was a permitted race, and even then it was with a houserule that declared it necessary to take the past soul feat in order to gain access to your past life's feat support

>>49603599
I'm currently in a game where they're allowed as is.

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>>49602864
They're the 4e version of high elves but more sparkly and explicitly from ultra fairyland

>>49604153
So, elves.

>>49604157
ULTRA SPARKLY ELVES, yes

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>>49602872
>tfw they made a dovahkin paragon path
>tfw it requires sorc|barb hybrid

>>49604200
You could do it with half-elf to poach an at-will from sorc, or take multiclass feats for rages.

Although, sorc | barb seems to have some synergy as a hybrid, with armored agility+sorc AC coming from STR.

>>49602864
They're high elves that are mostly mechanically overshadowed by tieflings, because 4e tieflings get all the nice toys.

>>49604357
Are you fucking high, bruh?
Eladrin are better than Tieflings for quite a few classes.

>>49604357
Eladrin get Eladrin Knight.

Your argument is invalid.

They also get some ridiculous support for their teleport (Eladrin Charge anyone?)

>>49604364
>>49604375
Keyword: "mostly"

Eladrin are certainly better at several classes than tieflings, especially classes that require dexterity, but when it comes to cha/int classes, I don't think there's a single cha/int or int/cha class that eladrin are better at than tieflings

>>49604422
cunning bardic taxis?

>>49604422
Actually, warlocks who abuse eladrin charge have been a thing for quite a while.

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>>49602709
I think focusing on an element is for disgusting munchkins that just want to deal shit tonnes of damage per turn instead of actually roleplaying

fire

>>49604643
I feel like single-element focus is more valuable for fluff than crunch


Why should a fire wizard get illusion spells? Or an invoker of Pelor get thunder spells? Makes far more sense for them to only get spells of a single damage type

>>49604643
I would think focusing on single elements would be a bad idea for munchkins. Something with resistance shows up and your life is ruined

>>49604346
I actually decided to read up on this, and barbarian multiclass feats are actually kinda amazing.

http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Berserkers-Fury.html
http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Rampant-Fury.html

I bet all the avengers are taking these.

...

Was what I thought until I read that they only trigger on barb powers. Huh.

Still, a simply multiclassing sorc could make good use of that PP (http://funin.space/compendium/paragonpath/Dragonfoe-Ragespell.html), with its AoE attacks he can crit fish a lot better.

>>49604643
>>49604829
>>49604898

In an unprecedented twist of fluff-meets-mechanics, focusing on a single element is both flavorful AND powerful in 4e.

>>49604936
beserker's fury is still good especially since it makes no distinction about having to be "weapon" damage rolls, the only problem is that it requires both strength and constitution at 13, which is a stat array most classes would rather avoid

>>49605490
Well, going with Dragon or Cosmic sorc, you just need to get 13 in CON, you'd have the STR covered anyway.

>>49605573
Yes, but you'd rather put that 13 in dexterity or intelligence, intelligence to get some actual use out of your forced arcana training, or dexterity for initiative and a couple of sorcerer feats

Late to the party, but I just discovered the cheese of Nusemnee's atonement + Ancient soul on a dragonborn dragon sorc.

>>49605652
Those seem rather minor to be honest. Better than the bonus HP from CON, but only slightly.

>>49605688
Oh, and also the +1 reflex

That's kind of important, more important than the +2 HP you get from a constitution investment

>>49605652
You won't be able to scale either so 1-2 extra points for skills/initiative are meaningless. better to use your 13s to qualify for feats than for any actual stat usage. You're right on the dex though. Dat dual sorcerer implement feat

>>49605754
Possibly banned for avatar fagging. Kinda stupid.

>>49605754
>>49605767
Shh, mods will ban you for speaking of him

For the Epic NAD feats, how much do the stats of epic monsters expect you to have them?

Can you get away with just taking the Epic NAD for your naturally weakest NAD? Or do you need all 3 to keep up?

>>49605895
Whichever one correlates to your main stat should be up to par on it's own. Depending on what iss/how much you put in your secondary stat, so should that one

>>49605895
Is funin fucking these up? It lists Epic Fortitude as an untyped +4, which would be incredibly crazy if true.

>>49605966
It'd intended. They are untyped.

>>49605966
It's epic, and you'll actually need it

>>49605941
So, for example, an avenger will probably have enough reflex and will, but will still need epic fort, while a rogue may need both epic fort and epic will?

>>49605754

To be honest, while his insights are accurate, I find it exhausting to try and deal with his perception that people will always attempt to maximally optimize, or that people will only have fun with maximal optimization. I mean, I'm all for 'this type of class is pretty crap or performs poorly compared to alternatives', but when the solution is some sort of double-hybrid monster for crazy optimization, my brain just kind of checks out.

>>49606207
Mostly I just hate how much he fellates battle cleric's lore when the class feature is clearly not working as intended when taken as a hybrid talent

>>49606356
You mean as a multiclass feat.

It's working as intended when you hybrid.

>>49606370
No it isn't, it still grants scale armor proficiency without chainmail proficiency

It works fine if your hybrid already has chainmail proficiency, but there is no other way in the game to skip over armor proficiencies

>>49606600
Oh, hmm, never noticed that, presumably because there is never a good reason to take chainmail proficiency as a leather-wearing class

Still, I believe the treatment armored warlord got implies that battle cleric's lore should be treated the same way. Why should battle cleric's lore give so much? There are only two other armor proficiency hybrid talents that also grant an extra effect, and both of those are for hide proficiency, not to mention that the cleric's own armor proficiency hybrid talent is separate from battle cleric's lore.

It clearly was not designed to be used like that, it was designed to buff clerics (the weakest base leader class) by giving them an alternative to their shitty healer's lore feature, not to put every light armor class in scale armor

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>>49602709
Psychic
>>49602720
Human. I feel like they finally have an identity.

>>49610069
That's just not true though.

I'd quote his posts from the other thread to prove you wrong, but they got deleted.

>>49606207
I think that's a problem with 4e charop in general, because unoptimized characters in 4e mean "you are a few points of damage behind another class" instead of "you lose at the game forever".

Touhou modus operandi:
>I want a Race A Class B
>Are you sure you want a Race A Class B? You could do those things as an X Y and be better at it.
>*details of X Y*
>But I really want AB...
>If you really want to do an A B, you should ...
>*details of A B* but I really recommend you do X Y instead.

I mean, you could cut out that middle part. But it also prompts discussion I enjoy.

>>49611147
I want a Shardmind Bard, go go go!

>>49611214
Sounds easy. Go CHA/INT cunning bard, grab battle song expertise/mark of storm if you are allowed, and shift everyone.

>>49611214
Cunning Bard, loads of will attacks, life singer PP

>>49610341
This is why it's annoying.

>>49610341
>>49618234
That's just how charopers operate. The practice itself attracts efficiency minded people, even if the efficiency increase is only like 0.846%.

My two favorites are Dwarf Fighter with axe, and Human Warlord with polearm. I love being a) sticky and tough as hell to lock down monsters, and b) ordering my party members to hit monsters or feel better.

>>49619396
>Dwarf Fighter with an axe
Due to 2hu not being here, this role falls to me

Suboptimal as hell

>>49611214
2hu actually did this one.
http://desuarchive.org/tg/thread/21866122/#21868583

Any way to add the high crit property to a glaive, or otherwise get a reach, high crit heavy blade?

>>49619794
http://funin.space/index.php?search=high+crit&folders%5B%5D=feat

If Halberd has reach Deadly Axe could work I think.

>>49619433
I'm not sure it's THAT suboptimal. It seems to be very well supported.

Although Dwarf warden is of course more optimal.

>>49619794
Only via the wicked blade feat, and that only applies to MBAs

So you can't use it to abuse desert moon style

>>49619871
>>49619914
Aw shucks, thanks anyway. I was trying to go polearm gamble + heavy blade opportunity + desert moon style. Was not meant to be I suppose

>>49619881
Str/Con barbarians and wis/cha clerics are also very well supported, doesn't mean they're good.

str/con fighters are awful due to being defenders with terrible NADs, so a dwarf fighter can't really receive a racial bonus to their secondary attribute, with typically means they're starting with a 16/16 stat spread to get a decent secondary attribute score, which means you really don't want to be using a +2 proficiency weapon, which is what all axes are

>>49620100
What does the fighter actually need a secondary stat for (aside from the NAD)? The only thing I can think of is qualifying for feats and some secondary effects of powers, but otherwise just go 18 STR and never look back. Yeah, you lose ~1 point from a NAD and it's slightly trickier to qualify for some stuff, but on the whole, it seems not that big of a deal.

Dwarf can also grab dwarven weapon training, then grab a gouge, and be a cheesy little git with his bullshit spear-axe.

>>49620171
Wis can be fairly important for fighters, and you usually need some secondary to qualify for weapon mastery in epic

>>49620222
Dwarves have to choose between being str/con, or con/wis

If you're making a dwarf fighter, you will always be choosing str/con, it's always more point efficient to put your racial in your primary stat, always

>>49620171
fighters have a bunch of feats that require wisdom or dexterity, and a fair few powers that run off of each, pretty much all of which are far superior to their powers and feats that require constitution

Also gouge fighters are good, but only as strikers, not defenders. Giving up your shield bonus to AC and reflex by using a two handed weapon that isn't a polearm makes you pretty damn fragile

bamp

>>49602720
Mechanically: Githzerai (inherent bonus to initiative, amazing feat support, useful attribute bonuses, what's not to love?), Fluffwise: gnomes (magically-engineered slave race to fomorians that escaped and carved their own niche out of faewild society, again, what's not to love? Also 4e gnomes have cool-looking eyes)

>>49602709
Radiant is my favourite damage type. Because a melee weapon that deals radiant damage is a lightsabre, and implement radiant damage lets you rain the power of the moon and stars upon your foes (unless you're a radiant fist monk, in which case you're just Johnathan Joestar)

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Why did 4e flop? In comparison to 5e

>>49625939
It had bad press.
It changed too much.
It was too honest.
It was plagued by executive errors throughout its life cycle.

All of this led to alienating previous fans.

>>49625939

To me, the biggest compliant was 4e felt like a straight jacket compared to 5e. Sure it worked, hell I'll say DnD 4e runs far better combat than 5e, but people liked more choices than picking power arrays.

Oh and gronards thinking everyone becoming wizards.

>>49625939
Because god is dead

>>49625991
You sure you didn't mean 3.5 there?

I could see that being the case but 5e having more choices is ridiculous.

>>49625939
That's a guy. A CUTE!
I mean... A GUY!

>>49626046

Only be perception. I read 5e once, then read what they cut out from the playtest then never touched it again.

>>49626071
What exactly did they cut out from the playtest?

>>49626125
Martial dice, transforming sorcerers... err, I don't think anything else really good was in there DESU.

>>49626132

Monks were also very heavily hit by the chopping block.

>>49626132
Actually, martial dice still very much exist in the fighter Battle Master subclass

>>49626181
It's really chopped and IIRC the rogue also had them and now doesn't.

>>49625991
5e is dumbed down trash.

>>49626993

True, but when given a choice between it and Essentials (Not 4e, just the Essentials part) I'd pick 5e any day.

I just read Essentials for the first time two months ago. I felt ill after reading it.

>>49626132
Martial dice just introduced a lot of dice rolling with no real great results, and spending them for maneuvers was usually a bad move compared to just throwing them onto damage (their default use).

And the transforming sorcerer idea wasn't that useful and cumbersome in actual play.

They're both neat ideas but there are reasons they were removed.

What is the most broken possible character I could make below level 9 that is rules legal?

I want to do this because my GM is a jackass that's forcing us to minmax (and is really just That Guy in general), and I want to make him scream.

>>49629181

Barbarian multiclassed into fighter with Flurry of blows polearm

Forget the build, but it can do like 300 damage in a single turn.

>>49629181
>my GM is a jackass that's forcing us to minmax (and is really just That Guy in general)
Find a new DM. If the rest of your group is cool, take them with you.

>>49629960
Humor me, kind anon.

>>49629181
4e is hard to break in heroic tier, a lot of the really powerful stuff comes from paragon path features

What are you playing, folks?

>>49632197

Honestly I'd like to try any 4e game.

First game ran for a few weeks but I needed to stop running it for personal reasons. The other was that the GM couldn't handle GM'ing, and the last was that the GM had some IRL issues. None of these lasted beyond session six.

Which is a shame, as I really liked my Tiefling Paladin, though mark sharing on solo bosses was a pain as me and the fighter would be at odds who gets to mark.

>>49626181
And it's a terrible shame it's restricted to one subtype instead of being a general martial feature

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>>49632197
I'm in a game based on the setting of the Dominions 4 video game. We basically just run around killing Ermorian* undead, and Asphodelan** raiders, though we also met some illithids once. I've attached my sprite and Roll20 token, which I recently revised for gear. I'm a warden, and recently I actually got to use my warden abilities because we stayed close together as a group and even had a chokepoint at one point.

*Romans with necromancy
**Centaurs and satyrs and dryads and shit, with necromancy

>>49632272
If you're playing with themes, two defenders offers opportunity, not conflict

If one takes the bodyguard theme, then the other marks a target they're both adjacent to, the bodyguard can use the bodyguard encounter power to intercept an attack aimed at the marker and counterattack, in the process triggering the marker's mark punishment

>>49632361
I have never heard of the bodyguard theme

>>49632361

Well yea I didn't mean that.

I mean on solo enemies which only one of was on the map.

>>49632435
This is why I like my Defenders to be secondary strikers (or some other strong secondary role) or downright hybrids (or possibly, berserkers, but that's such a poorly supported class). Paladin especially, since his mark isn't that great.

>>49632834

Well I was a Crimson Legion Hospitaler. I had healing out the ass, but a lot of it depended on the mark.

>>49626132
>>49627350
What is martial dice anyway?

>>49633016
If I recall correctly:
Instead of getting multiple attacks, martial characters got bonus damage dice. They could exchange these bonus damage dice for effects.

Kinda like if the rogue could go "hey, instead of dealing 4d6 SA damage, I'll trade in 2d6 for blinding the guy".

>>49632834
paladins can make their mark punishment pretty scary

straladins especially thanks to the champion of order paragon path.

It helps that it doesn't cost your immediate action to use the paladin mark punishment

>>49633117
Oh yeah, Champion of Order is quite amazing.

Although I like that one most for melee Warlock | Paladins with eldritch strike. Doubling up on striker features is pretty nice.

>>49633185
I prefer just going half-orc for it

Blessed strength + mighty challenge + In Defense of Order = terrifyingly powerful mark punishment

Not to mention the sheer single-target lockdown potential of Certain Justice.

>>49633227
Aaaaah, now I want to play an Orc paladin so hard. It'd be like hammy fantasy Captain America.

"Valiant Strike!" "Glorious charge!" *hyper meter filled* "CERTAAAIN JUSTIIIICE!"

>>49633056
That sounds fun.

>>49632411
Guardian.

>>49632906
>Crimson Legion Hospitalier
>knight of an ancient empire of slave-taking, devil worshipping warlocks
>also a defender of the weak
kek

>>49633227
I had a ball with a half-orc paladin|fighter, dealing out double punishments while screaming out GLORY TO THE BATTLE GOD!

>>49634967
That unfortunately only works with champion of order

hybrid paladin divine challenge takes an immediate reaction, unlike the full paladin's divine challenge, which is a free action

>>49635007
Divine challenge is always a minor. The punishment has no action, unless there was some errata I'm unaware of. That was the big benefit paladin had over other defenders: their punishment does less damage, but always goes off, range or stunning be damned

>>49634967
>>49635066

http://funin.space/compendium/class/Hybrid-Paladin.html

Sorry mate, he seems to be right.

On the upside, if you do take champion of order you get to double punish any mark violations.

Well, the ones that result from attacking someone else anyway.

>>49635134
Well that's supremely disappointing. I guess CBLoader never added whatever errata that was

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>>49635134
>lower the damage AND change the action type of the hybrid's punishment so that it can't hybrid with other defenders
This hurts me

>>49635187
>>49635247

Amusingly enough, the multiclass feat gives you the standard paladin version. You'll need pick up some method to use it against multiple enemies though (there are some daily utilities that may help, one is in Champion of Order even).

>>49635247
every hybrid class feature is weakened to prevent you from hybriding two classes in the same role to double-up on their strengths

Hybrid fighters only mark with fighter attacks rather than any attack, hybrid strikers of all kinds can only use their striker feature with their own powers, even hybrid leader/leaders get one less heal per day than full-class leaders

This is super important really, without this, the undoubtedly best build in the game would be hybrid ranger/avenger, and would destroy everything with it's supreme accuracy and damage

>>49635316
The paladin mark being a no action on hybrids was far from overpowered, especially seeing how there were other options to achieve the same thing. There was no need to change it.

>>49635361
>citation needed

Half-orc Paladin/fighter hybrid gets to punish with STRx2 and then a basic attack, and he's actually better at marking than the basic fighter.

>>49635382
Champion of Order can do the same thing with better radiant damage

>>49635456
You could have stacked Champion on top of that for double punish (since the champion punish is opportunity and the fighter is immediate reaction).

And you still can, you only miss out on the radiant damage.

>>49625975

This.

The 4th part did the most damage in the long term, desu. It could have survived alienating some fans and focusing on the new crowd,but then they went full retard and alienated almost everyone instead.

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>>49635007
>>49635066
>>49635134
Hold on, it appears the errata was to remove the immediate reaction requirement.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/updatecompiled.pdf
>>49635471
Well I guess it's super broken now.
I vaguely recall some errata about limiting multiple attack actions in a turn, though I think it might've been just for free action attacks.

I miss 2hu

>>49635361
The exact thing that >>49634967 was trying to do is why it works the way it works, hybrids were designed to disincentivize doubling up on roles.

Of course, the best way to hybrid is to still do so just while being sort of clever about it and avoiding the obvious stuff. For example, fighter/ranger works really well as a pure striker, since hybrid talent - tempest technique is a far better striker feature than pretty much anything rangers get naturally

>>49635545
Huh.

My bad then.

Yeah, that's pretty nuts. I mean you do lose out on some things by hybriding fighter | paladin, but not on much. Probably having to spend that extra feat on weapon talent and having a bit rougher stat array, and that's about it.

>>49635545
That's weird, the compendium is totally up to date on everything else

>>49602709
Do you guys ever do anything with Wilden in your games? Have you ever played one or given them a place in your setting?

>>49635645
I've used wilden the mechnically represent people who got lost in the feywild for too long and ended up corrupted by it

>>49635645
I made two - one was an executioner that choked people to death I called him stranglevine. Another was a cleric|warden crammed into a suit of plate so no one could actually tell what he was, only that he looked very uncomfortable in it

In my own setting I made them a cast of elves that drank the sap of their world tree and went all feral and hiveminded

Race/class combos that work really well despite lacking perfect attribute synergy:

Half-orc Paladin: (see above)

Eladrin Monk: dancing thorn style is an untyped +1 to monk power attack rolls

Half-elf Avenger: Dilettante(twin strike) + Adept Dilettante + versatile master gives half elf avengers a wisdom-based twin strike they can use with oath of enmity at-will.

Tiefling Sorcerer: hellfire blood is an untyped +1 to fire attack rolls, sorcerers like to be single-element focused

gnome paladin: Gnome nightcloak is a really nice PP overall

What others are there?

>>49636257
Revenant retribution avengers: Not falling unconscious below 0 hp is very good on a class subtype that wants to be hit as much as possible

>>49636257
Eladrin Knights.
Half elf thief because it can grab an at-will? Same for scout.
Pixie anything because charge.

>>49637672
>essentials classes

eww

>>49637672
What is so great about this eladrin knight build everyone was talking about?

>>49638223
You never stop teleporting, not only getting an at-will teleport, but off-turn teleports as well which is great if you have a paragon path with features that key off of teleporting

Unfortunately, as an eladrin knight without houserules, you absolutely must multiclass into swordmage, solely to get intelligent blademaster. Which sucks, because you want to multiclass warlock for the evermeet warlock PP

>>49638223
It's chuuni as fuck. You get to teleport all over the place all the time.

>>49638267
The PPs give more damage than what you lose on the blademaster.

>>49638267
Wait, knights get an at-will teleport? Are there some feat/fey step shenanigans going on here? Is there a reason to not go STR besides the racial bonus?

>>49638334
Only Eladrin Knights.

Technically, you could go STR, I guess. It seems like a waste tho.

>>49638334
There is no reason to go strength as a knight. It is purely disadvantageous You should always be using constitution and another stat, along with the melee training feat, or whatever other methods you can find to use an MBA that does not key off of strength.

There is no class that can really make good enough use out of a primary and secondary stat under the same NAD (str/con, dex/int, wis/cha) to make it worth it. Earthstrength warden and wis-secondary chaladins come close, but even then you're better off picking a wis-based warden feature, or just giving a token wis-investment and pouring everything else into constitution respectively

>>49638367
Oh, I see it now, they actually do get an at-will teleport. It turns you into a sort-of swordmage. Still, is it that much better than being an actual assault swordmage?

>>49638491
They are different. Swordmages want to run away and then hop back to punish. Eladrin Knights want to be in the middle of the fray.

>>49638430
I fail to see why CON is so very much more important to knights than STR. As far as I can tell only two things key off CON, and having a full powered MBA on a class that only ever uses that seems important. Why not just go STR/something else?

>>49638491
Overall? Yes

Assault swordmages have far more flexibility to them, swordmages have some excellent encounter and daily powers, also, the knight's defender aura is honestly pretty shit as a lockdown tool, while escaping a swordmage mark is damn near impossible

But really, it depends more on what you want to do as a defender, the difference in overall effectiveness is slight, and they specialize in different forms of defending. They play very differently. It's like comparing a str/wis fighter with a str/wis warden. Same stats, but very different playstyle.

>>49638585
Because only one thing keys off of strength aside from the MBAs, and using a different stat for MBAs is easy. Multiclass swordmage for intelligent blademaster, take the master of the fist multiclass feat into monk and grab internalize the basic kata to use dexterity (though lose access to your weapon features). Or just be a half-elf, grab eldritch strike or virtuous strike, or take overwhelming strike and the power of skill feat, then take versatile master in paragon.

>>49638674
Half-elf won't get all the teleporting shenanigans, and you won't be able to go evermeet in paragon if you MC swordmage/monk. Locking yourself out of that just to so you wouldn't have to go STR primary seems needless. I do agree those are all better choices if you don't have any such priorities though.

>>49638895
The teleporting shenanigans actually aren't quite as good as eldritch strike abuse. Eldritch strike is both an MBA and an arcane power at the same time, which opens a lot of opportunities

>>49638942
Well now we're veering into "why bother being a knight at at all?" territory

>>49639006
No other defender class can really abuse eldritch strike like a knight can

Only battleminds and paladins use the stats, and neither use MBAs for mark punishment, which is what makes eldritch strike knight worth it

>>49639038
You could be an assault swordmage, go INT/CHA. Assault doesn't actually need STR for shit

>>49639038
Paladins can, with Champion of Order.

Tell me about running a Paragon tier game, and the unique challenges and opportunities it provides, especially from the DM's perspective, please.)

>>49639074
That involves sacrificing literally all of your encounter and daily powers to uselessness. Remember, this relies on being a half elf, half elves don't get +int

Also it ruins your AC, which is kind of important for defenders

>>49639080
Strength paladins can, but strength paladins don't use charisma or constitution

>>49639120
You could do a CHA paladin, that's why you'd grab Eldritch strike.

Of course, you could just use the CHA paladin at-will, it's pretty grand.

>>49639142
And then you get no benefit out of certain justice, which is an even greater reason to take the champion of order paragon path than the extra mark punishment

>>49639096

Very little warmup I find. Players can already do a ton of things right out of the gate.

>>49639105
>-5% accuracy and AC defense on a longsword wielding, NAD targeting class with built in +3 AC (higher with feats)
Eh, doesn't seem so bad

>>49639096
Making stories out of how the pcs got/maintain their PPs seems like DMing gold.

As a pc I can say making notes of all your crazy synergies/tactics is immensely helpful

>>49639187
It's more like minus 10% accuracy and AC

Swordmages typically go for a 20 in intelligence. There's even less of a reason to go 16/16 for them than any other defender class

>>49639187
In which case you're losing 10% of your accuracy on eldritch strike

In standard 4e, that's enough to go from "usually hitting" to "usually missing"

>>49639251
>>49639317
Just use a fucking rapier and stab them in the Ref with +3 proficiency.

Frostcheese should work pretty well for Eladrin Knight -> long night scion, right?

>>49636257
Genasi Wizard - Have a feat that lets you add strength to elemental spells so you could pretend to be a sorcerer

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>>49641365
>add strength to elemental spells

>>49642060
That's kinda the sorcerer's shtick.

>>49639526
I don't think there's anything frostcheese doesn't work well with

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Warlocks can teleport at will at Lv10. What fun gimmicky bullshit can I do with this?

>>49643617
Evermeet warlock pp - turn invisible and teleport a friend at will

>>49643617
which doesn't it say if it's a standard, move or swift action
what are those arrows

>>49644423
Checked the char builder, it's a Move action.

>>49644423
I assume they're fighting game inputs.

>>49644543
I would be all over a DnD fighting game.

>>49644543
Wut

>>49643617
>using the generic fighting game input for dash to represent move action

Clever

>>49644557
Shadow Over Mystara in 4th ed would have been amazing.

>>49644557
>>49648646
A 4e fighting game would work pretty well, one character for each class.

Fighter is a stance character, ranger is heavy rushdown, rogue is fast rushdown, warlord has buffs and has special moves involving calling allies in to assist, cleric is all about the self-healing and buffing, warlock is a high damage zoner, wizard is a zoner/stance character, switching between spellbooks to gain different special moves

>>49602709

Could Intimidate be used with Str instead of Cha?
I'm currently using it like that, along with giving people 2 feats instead of one each time they gain a feat by lvling.

>>49649700
I houserule that attributes and skills aren't tied together so tightly, you still add an attribute to your skill checks, but now the attribute you add depends on the situation, not on the skill being used. So breaking a padlock with a swift strike would be thievery + strength, rather than thievery + dexterity, or just strength.

This means that looming menacingly would be an intimidate + strength roll, but subtle fear invoking would still be intimidate + charisma

>>49648702

Monk is oh come the Fucking hell on, stop moving and fight character. Asshole can double jump and air combat better than anyone else.

>>49649801
Warden is unkillable wall of meat, probably a grappler. Uses supers as self-buffs, rather than attacks

Sorcerer is that one character with basically no health at all but has bullshit powerful supers

Shaman is Zato from Guilty Gear

Invoker has massively powerful attacks that hurt the invoker as well

Druid is a stance-dance character, uses wildshape for quick attacks, but can't block in wildshape form

Barbarian is another wall of meat, but a bit less resilient and a bit more damaging than warden, it's supers are also self-buffs

Bard is that one asshole character that exerts such heavy control over it's opponent that it's basically controlling both characters at once.

Hey guys, I'm currently GMing a 4e Campaign, but I'm kinda drawing blanks on combat design. Can you just throw a few hard encounters for a 4 man level 2 party at me? You can pretty much use anything because I reskin everything anyway.
I'd like to have at least one with a trap, but I'm not sure how and I still kinda have trouble incorporating interesting arenas.

>>49649955
What race/class are the characters?
What is the campaign about?

>>49649961
Dragonborn Rogue (the mobile one)
Dwarf Fighter (the temp hp one)
Shardmind Ardent (the healing/controlling one)
Half-Elven Artificer (the healing one)
They're stranded on a group of island that serve as a prison for an ancient evil and want to leave.

>>49650010
First idea would be jungle kobolds hiding in the vegetation and using ranged weaponry, with one or two acting as bait for log traps. They'll have a hard time with minions, not a lot of AoE as far as I can see.

list of level 1 kobolds:

http://funin.space/index.php?search=kobold+level%2B1&folders%5B%5D=monster

>>49650010
Two out of four are class/race combos without a racial bonus to their primary stat

Honestly, just look through MM3 and Monster vault for level 2 encounters, your party looks a little on the weak side, so a standard level 2 encounter should be a significant challenge

If you're worried about it being to easy, look for five-man party encounters, rather than 4 man.

As for traps, 4e has lots of cool traps, look through funin.space at all of them, then down or up-level them as appropriate to fit your party

>>49650050
Cool idea, thanks

>>49650055
Actually, they can manage harder encounters. I've not really noticed that they are far behind with their numbers. I didn't even give them the free proficiency feats and it's still working out pretty well.
How is the encounter budget different for 4 man and 5 man groups?
Looks like I will start using that reference site quite often, thanks!

>>49650416
Wait, is the dragonborn rogue a kapak draconian?

Because standard dragonborn are pretty shitty rogues, but kapak draconaians have flight and a racial bonus to dexteirty instead of strength or constitution, and thus make pretty damn good rogues

>>49649700
Strong arm tactics allows that. Its a half orc feat

>>49650989
Then again, pointless feat (and other game elements - see martial practices) proliferation stopping you from doing things that makes sense is the pitfall of the 3.5/4e model.

Especially hiding it behind a racial feat, that's ridiculous.

>>49651165
I wish there was some way for fluffy and crunchy feats to exist side by side without stepping on each other's toes

>>49651359
Have them not use the same pool.

Make the fluffy stuff cost fluff, not character building resources; i.e. make them into martial practices you attain by studying them, not spending a feat.

>>49651165
The great thing about the character builder was the houserule button. Pick anything from anywhere, fuck the rules

>>49651359
>>49651392
You have to define the line between the two. Does a skill boost to intimidate count as fluff or crunch? Does it count considering you can by RAW end fights with a good roll? Does a crunch feat count as fluff if it fits your character theme? If it's a suboptimal choice? If it's downright terrible like thise tribal feats?

It's just easier to ask your dm on a case by case scenario; I don't see how you could create. lists of pure crunch/fluff feats

I could use a few pointers towards the fun direction, not necessarily in the char op direction.

I'm going to be starting a new campaign with a pretty casual group next week. I know some players don't take games too seriously in this group, so I wanted to have a fun character. At first I tried to have a Pixie Sorcerer but Pixie is outright banned apparently, then I tried for a Psion but the DM ruled that all area powers are 2d so no teleporting enemies upwards so I guess that's not fun anymore, and now I'm on a Gnome Mage Wizard. He's a gambling addict and a cheater, who specializes in illusions and enchantments. The rules for what's allowed are "anything in the online creator, but no essentials, and some odd things will be banned." I'd prefer if this character worked 95% on their own without magic items involved.

What can you help me out with, guys? Starting level 1, and id be surprised if we passed level 6.

I realise I'm awfully late to the party, but is there still some way to get access to the old 4e D&D Insider stuff? According to the website the only way to use it is if you had a subscription back when it was still being supported and maintained that subscription all this time, since new subscriptions don't get access for some retarded reason (most likely to force people to use 5e instead).

I'm just trying to find a way to get access to the Insider content and tools. I know some of it can be pirated, but for example the character builder is horribly outdated since it's only the old version from before they switched to a web-based interface.

>>49652143
There's a few cool things you can do depending on what you consider "fun", but most of them aren't super fun at level 1, level 1 is kind of boring

Psion can be fun at level 1 solely for the living missile daily. Because that power is great in both fluff and crunch.

There's a fun fighter/ranger hybrid I like, but you need to be either level 2 or a human to use it, because it needs two feats to get started (hybrid talent: tempest technique and master of the fist)

Invokers get an AoE stun at level 1, it's a daily and dazes the user, but it's an AoE stun, no other class gets anything like it level 9

>>49652143
You can still have fun with psion without 3d teleporting shenanigans. Living missile lets you hit a dude with another dude, how is that not great?
That said, your dm does sound like a no fun allowed guy

>>49652277
The cbloader was an addon to the offline builder that updated everything to the latest version (or added homebrew stuff). Not sure if it's still available somewhere; I recall the host site getting a couple cease and desists

>>49652309
>>49652803
Maybe I could go back to Psion for living missile shenanigans, but I didn't want to bother competing for damage since one player basically exclusively plays rogues or rangers who are loners and C/N, and when I played a defender before i was criticized for "not helping and being useless" because I wasnt keeping up with kills. A beguiling strands with orb expertise seemed like the best way to produce visible and calculable results at level 1 to still have fun.

>>49652837
I can find the CBloader, but I can't find the content to actually update it with (the .part files). Without those, it's no better than the busted old offline CBuilder.

>>49652849
>Asshole ruining the fun of rangers and rogues

But 4e rogues are all about having friends, they're probably the most party-dependent strikers in the game, why is he playing them as loners?

I mean, it makes sense for rangers, thanks to prime shot, rangers sort of want to be fighting slightly away from the rest of the party, but rogues always love to have a defender to flank with

>>49652981
I don't mean in combat, I mean as a person. He once had a character whos entire backstory was that they were camped just outside town because they didn't like crowds, and just came in for supplies when they met the party. That carried ended up dying, and he made another with EXACTLY the same story. We joked that there's a ring of camps just outside towns with rangers at the ready for their turn to go in for supplies.

>>49653222
If your character in combat doesn't match your character out of combat, you need to change either how they behave in combat or out of combat.

>>49652851
There's a method to upgrade through an API. I used it a few threads ago. I'll gig around.

>>49653431

There was some method to get the CBLoader to update but I haven't done it for like, 2 years now.

https://rogue-elements.obsidianportal.com/wikis/offline-character-builder

The link to the offline builder doesn't work, but you can find that in the pastebin. Otherwise, follow the steps.

Here's the WotC index in case you wouldn't find it:

http://cbloader.com/indexes/WotC.index

This should do the trick.

>>49653366
Thanks for the great advice about a character that I don't play, and for a player who will never read this.

Sharing the googledoc with all* of the books and shit again.
We should compile an actual OP with the char builders and shit in it.

>>49654136
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B6X_cqKj7796YTd2VjVqUUlOSGM?usp=sharing
helps if I actually paste, instead of just complain

>>49654114
You could, you know, speak words to him

>>49653668
>https://rogue-elements.obsidianportal.com/wikis/offline-character-builder
The first link they give is dead, so I dunno how helpful that is.

I did the CBloader thing with the index file you gave, and it downloaded all the .part files, but when opening the actual character builder (through CBloader, natch), it doesn't have any of the new content.

Do I need to enable the new stuff somewhere first? I don't see any option to do so.

>>49655288
That might be a worthwhile suggestion if my question was "How do I make this person have fun my way, instead of just playing along in their group?" But I didn't ask that. You must be a joy to play with.

>>49655314
>The first link they give is dead, so I dunno how helpful that is.
>>49653668
>The link to the offline builder doesn't work, but you can find that in the pastebin. Otherwise, follow the steps.

....

Anyway, You need to restart it after it finished loading the files once IIRC.

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>>49655417
Right, my fault for only reading half the post. Even so I already had the offline builder, so it doesn't matter.

I tried restarting it, but no dice. All the old stuff is still there, but none of the newer stuff (to illustrate, the HotF races like Pixie or Satyr) shows upin the builder.

>>49655490
Did you also go through with removing and reinstalling it?

>>49655531
Yea, did a clean install.

>>49655490
Have you installed the October2010 update for the Character Builder?

>>49655581
Yup.

>>49655544
>>49655581
Also, do you have the 1.3 CBLoader? That's the one with the auto update.

>>49655600
I've got 1.3.2b4

>>49655621
Well, I'm stumped then. Maybe try another full reinstall (run the CLEANUP.bat and everything) and try again.

Then ask Google, because I'm going to sleep.

>>49655658
Where do I get CLEANUP.bat?

Thanks for your help and patience btw, I hope I'm not keeping you up.

>>49655681
You can manually delete the files from your user/*name*/AppData/Roaming.

Try doing that and run the cbloader again.

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>>49655765
Just got done.

Uninstalled the builder again.
Manually deleted all relevant folders.
Reinstalled everything to a different folder just to be sure.
Ran CBloader.
Closed the builder.
Ran CBloader again.
And now it works!

Thanks for all the help.

>>49655947
No prob. A little success before I hit the hay.

Some sort of abridged version should probably go into the sticky or the pastebin.

For a Roman gladiator-style character (trident and net dual wielding), what would be better in the long run? I've got two characters written up and they're pretty similar, but I'm not sure which would be more viable.

Two-Blade Style Ranger with Net Training
>Gets all the Ranger goodies like Prime Shot, doesn't have to bother with hybrid bullshit, can slow people on hit with the net.
>Using weapons from two different groups means twice as many feats would be needed to boost them.

Ranger/Fighter Hybrid with Arena Training (Hybrid)
>Gets to use one feat to boost both Trident and Net thanks to Arena Training, gets access to Fighter powers. Doesn't have to use a Multiclass feat just for Net Training.
>Doesn't get stuff like Prime Shot or free Toughness, and Hunter's Quarry doesn't work with Fighter powers. No Net Training also means net attacks don't slow on hit.

I'd really like to make this kind of build work. Maybe a full Arena Training Fighter without the Ranger aspect would work just as well or better? Or something else entirely, maybe?

>>49657118
If you want to focus on damage, Tempest style>>>>arena style. In fact, you can just take versatile expertise (although missing out on flail expertise for the net is meh)

Single classed fighter can do this pretty well. Take Deft hurler style feat (http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Deft-Hurler-Style.html), both of your weapons are throwing so you can make pretty good use of it.

>>49657410
Actually, this sounds rather fun. You could try to lock down two people at once, with the net to slow, and then alternate using Deft Hurler between them to gain the benefits of stuff like Manticore Fury.

>>49657534
You can't use Manticore's Fury if you're a single classed fighter though, so you'd still have to be a hybrid or multiclass.

>>49657697
Well, yeah.

Also, a stupid build I just thought of: human scout, grab Throw and Stab as your bonus at will power.

You throw your net, then stab some guy, then you can hit a guy with your net again. It needs both STR and DEX though, sadly, which is pretty bad when you only got a bonus for one and +2 prof bonus weapons.

Also, you'd be a scout.