What would Greyhawk magic-users think of this magus?

>>49580230
Does Greyhawk have any old men?

>muffled OHOHO in the distance

>>49580230

A high level greyhawk magic user will be able to do more different kinds of things than Rin ever could, but Rin isn't bound by the Vancian spellcasting system.

Rin is, I would say, somewhere between a level 7 and a level 10 dnd caster in terms of power. There is some wiggle room in that Nasu's magic system is weird, and she plays by different magical rules than dnd is usually used to. But why there is a lot of stuff she can do within the boundaries of the magic her family has created, the way magecraft works in Fate means that she has some hard upper limits to what she can do that can't be fixed by just finding a spellbook. Coming up with a new spell is, for her, the work of a lifetime.

A greyhawk wizard can just buy a new spell off of a hobo, or wake up knowing how to cast Fly as a result of killing enough dire rats in a cave.

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>>49580359
That's how she is currently. In the fluff she's said to eventually become one of the greatest magi the Clocktower will ever produce. With the use of her Magic Crest she can eventually turn high level spells within her domains into the equivalent of cantrips--see her Gandr--by literally inscribing them into her body, which also replaces several somatic and verbal components. Also, because her Origin is Four Elements, quite a lot of things do fall in her domains.

>>49580547

I was presuming that OP's image meant that we were talking her level and abilities as seen at that age.

I don't know enough about what she supposedly can do in the future to have an opinion on that side material.

>>49580230
"Bitch can't cast sleep? Who the fuck trained this newb?"

>>49580230
Mordekainen IS an old man, right?

>>49580230
"How the fuck can she cast THAT many spells in one day!?"

>>49580670

> Rin shoots magic missiles from her fingers

"That's cute, kid. You must be a level one badass."

> Hours later, still shooting magic missiles like candy.

"Okay what the fuck this is bullshit."

Fate is shit. KYS.

>high INT and CHA
>above-average STR, DEX, and CON that she can buff all day long
>average WIS

Very good magic user and a better martial than martials.

>>49580641
Her Gandr can literally cast Sleep.

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>>49580799
>best girl who tried so hard against all the odds lost because a high school student took some martial arts lessons
IT'S NOT FAIR

>>49580670

She gains magical energy through semen.

Just like Odin!

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>>49580799
>a better martial than martials.
That goes unsaid.

>>49580859
"That goes without saying", friend.

>>49581138
Thanks for having my back, senpai.

"She's gotta be a warlock in disguise. Find out her patron and execute her if it's an archfiend."

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>>49580799
>high CHA

Come on anon, you can be honest. She's not here right now.

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>>49581218

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>>49581218
>implying Rin isn't the most charismatic and charming

>>49581301
In vanilla stay night, she was easily worst girl.

In UBW and kaleid though (and zero, despite being a loli at the time and having all of one or two appearances) she is a lot better.

That said vanilla stay night anime is terrible anyways.

>>49581218
Rin is very good at bluffing and maintaining a facade, hence why everyone thinks she's the most elegant and magnificent girl in class despite being an ill-tempered and somewhat antisocial person in reality.

>>49580547
Depend on which version.

Fate Rin is useless.

UBW Rin is good.

HF Rin is absolute brute and op as fuck.

Then there is weird parallel versions where she gets to the throne of hero or counter guardian or whatev

I hate the Nasuverse.

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>>49581301
>Fate
>Exposition: With Thighhighs
>UBW
>Tsundere: The Archetype
>HF
>Who?: Literally

She is only good in UBW and that's after trudging through half of her bullshit. Even after that she doesn't use her charisma for nearly anything. Ilya or Medea are far more charismatic than Rin.

>>49581432
>Fate Rin is useless.
>blows off Heracles' fucking face with one shot

>>49581368
>Rin is very good at bluffing and maintaining a facade

Surrounded by a bunch of filler NPCs whos only purpose is to populate the world. Any character that lives in a mansion in anime world usually always has this sort of advantage. That doesn't make them charismatic, it makes them just one requisite closer to a played our cliche.

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>>49580230
>>49580547
>>49580359

Yes. Truly the best and brightest the Clocktower has to offer.

>>49581437
>Ilya
>sociopathic, but a little girl
>Medea
>only really gets her ara ara boya~ personality in F/HA; in the story, the only people she manages to convince to do anything in F/SN are a fake Servant she summons, a killer who has no motivations of his own, and a guy looking to literally kill himself, and the last one betrays her

>>49581504
>Surrounded by a bunch of filler NPCs
Shinji, Sakura, Taiga, Issei and Ayako?

>>49580230
>Young Aoko is literally Rin.
Nasu is a hack desu.

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>>49580230
"That's your... familiar, you say?"

>>49581486
In potential level, when she goes to the Clock Tower.

In Fate she goes alone, and she mostly lives a life of dull mediocrity.

In UBW she goes with Shirou, and she will get better and better learning everything to protect her husbando.

In HF she becomes multidimensional space Jesus.

>>49581544
>Young Aoko is literally Rin
Don't compare a magician to a failure of a magus.

>>49581546
Who did Rin summon in the timeline that Archer comes from?

>>49581570
Shirou doesn't improve her potential, he just makes her waste time doting on him. Rin becomes an excellent magus after Fate and goes on to shut down the Great Grail with Lord El-Melloi II, just like after UBW.

>>49581635
The same guy.

>>49581635
Archer. The Throne of Heroes works outside of time.

>>49581635
Unknown, possibly Ajax.

>>49581635

Also Archer.

Time is some convoluted shit.

>>49580825
>Her Gandr can literally cast Sleep.
The only thing I've seen that thing do is act as a shitty gun.

>>49581437
I've always wonder where this gif comes from. Is it porn?

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>>49581677
>Aias being any class but Shielder
Not rad.

>>49581677
Ajax was meant to be a route, but that was scrapped. Archer having Rho Aias is a real plot hole.

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>>49580230
They would tell fatefags to fuck right off

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>>49581781
>Ajax was meant to be a route
Bullshit.
There is no indication who Stray Servant was ever meant to be.

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>>49580834
Shhh, no tears now, only dreams.

>>49581686
It's a curse, but her version can be juiced up so it acts like a cannon; however, she can still use it as a curse. If you recall, when she fights Shirou in the Fate route, her plan was to make him fall asleep and ill for the entire Holy Grail War, and that was also her plan the first time Shirou and Rin fought Kuzuki in UBW.

>>49580230
Most of her magic is fueled by her body's internal energies, or by energy she's stored in crystals for later use.

So they'd probably kick her out for being "too sci-fi" then go back to shooting each other with laser rifles and flying to other campaign settings on magic spaceships

>>49581815
Whoever it was supposed to be, Archer was supposed to receive Rho Aias from that Servant who was scrapped and never addressed.

>>49581740
Google it, famalam. Or not, because this particular one doesn't work. It's Strike the Blood, ecchi.

>>49581861
It's not really a "plot hole" though. Any more than him having Caladbolg or Durandal is, at least. It can easily just be something he catalogued sometime in his eternity.

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>>49581815
>>49581781
Proto-Saber a qt

Who is best servant and why is it Tamamo!

>>49581834

Wow. I just realized that Medea would be all over Shirou as a master.

His desire to be a hero of justice and trying to take hits for her left and right... given the emotional state Caster was in after being summoned from her shitty fucking marriage in ancient greece, she would probably fall for him at least as much as she fell for the serial killer.

Assuming, that is, Shirou fucking lives long enough. Take Saber out of the equation, and he doesn't have Avalon keeping him alive anymore. So he probably gets himself killed pretty goddamn dead unless Caster has some way to save him from his own heroic streak.

>>49581840
If that's the way it was in the visual novel then sure, never played it, only ever saw the anime.

>>49581883
Which is why I asked.

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>>49580547
>>49580230
Anarcho-Terrorist Rin > Clocktower Rin

prove me wrong.

>>49581894
>Caladbolg or Durandal
Wasn't it that he got them seeing Gilgamesh's versions from Gate of Babylon?

He could presumably copy Archer's Rho Aias, like he did with Kansho and Bakuya.

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>>49581940

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She becomes one of the lewdest servants potentially

at least before Fate GO fucked up the powerlevel/lewd rankings

>>49582025
I super hate this.

Considering everyone here seems to understand the Nasuverse, is there a doc I can read to understand the mechanics of the universe? I was thinking of making an RPG about it, mostly because I really don't think the one Heavens-Feel made was that good, the only problem I have is that I have no idea how to compile the fluff for RP purposes and also I'd like to structure the game around the in-universe mechanics.

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>>49582025
She becomes Bayonetta? Shouldn't have let her out of her trunk.

>>49582025
This is not my Tohsaka.

>>49582072
I don't think there's one big compilation anywhere. Nasu explains the magic system from scratch in pretty much every one of his works, though.

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>>49582072
>understanding Nasuverse mechanics

>>49580230
>What would Greyhawk magic-users think of this magus?
Fuck you and your anime.

>>49580230

That she PLEASES OLD MEN FOR MONEY

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>>49582059
>>49582122
>>49582146
it's okay, she's still the same old greedy Rin

She even starts a business outsourcing heroic spirits as hireable labor to the everyman!

>>49582072
Okay dude, if you want help with this make an IRC channel. I'll help you as much as I can, but it's pretty darn whack.

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>>49582025
Disgusting.

>>49581544
>Soujuurou is literally Shirou

>>49582157
>Anything can happen for any reason.
Fundamentally it's not so difficult to comprehend.

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>>49582208
>Became a Servant because she's that deep in debt

Does the Nasuverse just run on its own internal memes nowadays?

>>49582072

The best way to represent Nasu's magic system for an RP is the same way that Nasu himself does it in his works:

Write down a decently complicated, but in no way comprehensive, magic system for how magecraft works on a fundamental level, with some examples for how to use it on normal characters.

But include, in the rules, that whenever you start a new campaign you set aside a sheet of paper or a small notebook titled 'rules of magic'.

Anything not covered by the rules in the game is open to be made up later. You just have to try and be consistent with the new rules after they get made, and you can't outright contradict the core rules or the new rules once they have been established as fact.

That said, very rare exceptions to the rules do exist somewhere.

The in universe explanation is the same as in the novel: magic is so enormously complex that even an expert magus only knows MOST of the rules of magic, only the most legendary of sorcerers know EVERYTHING about magic. And even if you know all of it yourself, it takes too long to be practical for you to try and explain it to someone else. Rin doesn't have time to explain everything she knows about magic to Shirou even if she wanted to, so she only tells him what he needs to know at any given moment as it becomes relevant. The rest can wait.

You just need to come up with some way to prevent players from using this purely to give themselves artificial power boosts. Maybe a give-and-take system, where the players can't magic up a new rule of magic until the GM makes up a rule of magic, with creative power bouncing back and forth across the table, and you can only make a new rule once a session so shit doesn't get piled on absurdly fast.

>>49582155
Ya I guess I need to get around to reading those VN was trying to avoid pirating because my computer is shit but fuck it.

>>49582157
I've read some of the wiki on the Nasuverse mechanics and they actually make a lot of sense in a very weird asian way which really only makes sense to me because I've been studying asian religions for a few years now. It's all interconnected and feeds into one another

>>49582210
I don't know how to make an IRC channel but I'm working a couple of other projects at the moment (An RPG set in Hell, and another that is essentially Conan got smashed against Greek mythology)

If you'd like to help slay that beast I'd be more than happy to work with someone else. Got any contact info?

>>49582330
I mean the magic system does make sense to me in a very taoist sort of manner in the info I could glean from the wiki.

>>49582072
The only rule of the Nasuverse is "everyone breaks the rules in some way". Combat consists of both sides constantly pulling out completely bullshit new abilities, which make them seem undefeatable until someone else either pulls out even greater hax, or coincidentally has an aspect to one of their powers that makes it the rock to their scissors.

That HF RPG only lets you get the exact abilities that another character had already, which is completely missing the point.

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>>49582204

You mean she pleases blonde ojous for pleasure, surely.

>>49582373

The magic system has a foundation of logic and spell circuits and magecraft and conceptual objects. Most of the magic that gets layered on top of this foundation is consistent with the levels below it, but Nasu does have a tendency to just make up new shit halfway into a story and pretend that was always the case, especially when it comes to specific interacts of magic as opposed to just general magical theory.

He doesn't do it super often, but he does it enough to be noticeable.

Making that how the game works too saves you from trying to autistically compile and reconcile all of the magical shit he has every written, which is the 13th labor of Hercules right there.

>>49582378
Nasuverse's rules only exist so you can be impressed when someone ignores them.
The guy who ignores the rules in the more unfair way is usually the guy who always wins, especially if in theory his opponent should be more powerful then he is.

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>>49582473
>>49582378
This is all because of an interesting decision Nasu decided for Fate, which is that power levels should always matter less then concepts trumping concepts.

EG: The Shield That Never Fails beating the Spear That Never Misses, or The Sword That Shows Harsh Truth being blocked by The Scabbard of Unobtainable Utopia

Also I think we can all agree, Iskandar is best servant. Just throwing that out there.

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>>49582378
>>49582373
>>49582330
>>49582214
Also, Earth hates you.
And so does the moon.
And all other planets.
Some of them are actually chilling on Earth now tho.
Oh and Earth has this whole spilt personality thing going.

>>49582441
It's REALLY easy to write a Nasuverse fight.
Go into how impossibly powerful something is for a good while before and during the fight (use the phrase "on a completely different level" liberally), and then have the actual fight be extremely close or totally one-sided in favor of one party because as it turns out the invincible undefeatable person is actually totally detestable in these very specific circumstances where he suddenly finds himself in.

Repeat as necessary for every fight.

>>49582542
Of course he's the best servant. He's the only person that isn't made for pure waifu material and actually has a personality that I can't describe in two words.

>>49582542

Yep. Shirou was a shit class mage who would lose in a straight fight against almost any servant, but because of how their respective powers and combat styles worked he was the perfect counter to Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon.

Gil could effortlessly destroy an army, but he didn't respect Shirou enough as an enemy to use that power until it was far too late, because by all rights Shirou should be a chump. And Shirou could match Gate of Babylon weapon for weapon and then some. Once he got close enough to actually fight Gil in melee, Gil was doomed whether he knew it or not.

>>49582569
For some reason the earth hates people because they are killing it but all humans have a collective consciousness that is collectively dedicated to keeping the earth alive, which is controlled by the earth.

>>49582373
>Got any contact info?
Jump into this.
client00.chat.mibbit.com/?channel=%23TypeyMoon&server=irc.Rizon.net

>>49582569
>>49582636
The world doesn't "hate" humans, it just thinks killing humans sounds really fun. It sees humans as interesting.

The moon doesn't hate humans either, it just thinks of them as food. (Except in EXTRA, where the moon totally hates humans, but pretends it doesn't because it's not "supposed" to have opinions.)

>>49582582

To be fair, we are given to understand that the only reason most of those fights are close is because the characters we are following are specifically choosing battlefields and tactics that limit the advantages that can be brought against them and force the enemy to fight under less than ideal conditions. If they met on a level playing field, we are sold on the idea that it would be a curbstomp defeat.

So I guess, in game terms, powerlevels exist but preptime and tactics and be used to shift the balance more easily than powerlevels can ignore good strategy.

That is, come to think of it, literally Kiritsugu's entire combat doctrine for killing mages left and right over the years: don't fight them how they want to fight, burn down their house with them inside and then hit them with a car when they run outside.

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>>49582589
>Hating on Gilgamesh
>Hating on Caster Zero

You take that back.
>>49582618
The funny thing is, Gilgamesh has a perfect counter to UBW. He could literally destroy the demiplane they were standing in at any time, he was just too fucking proud to do so.

Funny enough, in the magical girl spinoff, Gilgamesh as a child is actually arguably a bigger threat then his adult self, simply because he's more willing to actually use his powers on people.

At one point he's trapped underground with the cast, so he summons his airship and flies straight up through several hundred feet of rock. Hard to imagine adult Gil being that pragmatic.

>>49582542
I've once heard a fight in any Nasuverse thing generally described as being rather like a chess match rather then a fight; instead of a back and forth trading of a maneuvers and attempts at getting around each one's defense with a lot of random variables, each fight is actually largely internal strategy stuff (with some largely ineffectual back and dory hitting that is mostly for show when it comes to determining the outcome), then one of the fighters maneuvers the other into a position where it's special movie or ability effectively makes victory assured no matter what the other person does (putting them "in check").

Then the other party either figures it out and retreats to fight another day in more favorable terrain or is too stupid to know when it is beat and gets killed.

>/tg/ - Anime and Manga

>>49582749
I'm sorry but all I can imagine now is Rider dumping a giant plastic bag of pawns on the board, lining them up while his opponent gives him a dirty look and Rider just looks at him and says

"What? This is a completely legitimate tactic!"

>>49582727
Gilgamesh is boring as hell in Zero.

>>49582799

As someone who posts frequently in /a/ Type Moon threads, this is far and away the best Type Moon thread I have posted in for years. No shitposting, no waifuwars, a serious discussion of powerlevels without the wank, I wish there were more threads like this on /a/

>>49582810
It's against the rules, but so is everything everyone else does too.
Except for Tohsaka, but that's why she's just a love interest instead of the main character.

>>49582799
It's asking how a set of people in a /tg/ setting would react, so it's /tg/ related.

>>49582799
>/tg/ - Every Other Board Except Better

>>49582810
Medusa or Iskander?

>>49580230
Trick question: they wouldn't think anything.

The world of Greyhawk has been dead since the 80s.

>>49582833

I sometimes wish she was the main character. I would love to see her POV when she gets turned on warming Saber up.

>>49582874
That sounds like Iskandar's strategy.
Medusa would slam an extra-large knight on the table and say it threatens an L that covers 3/4ths the board.

>>49582727
I don't hate them I just find them very uncomplex and kind of boring.

>>49580547
>her Origin is Four Elements
Nigger what? I don't think her Origin is ever revealed, her Elemental Alignment is, as an "Average one", someone who is gifted with all of the elements. But I'm pretty sure her Origin is never revealed.

>>49582618
I dig it because a guy losing because of his character flaws always trumps a guy losing because the other guy was stronger.

>>49582946
You're right. I got mixed up.

>>49582925

Seconding. Gilgamesh in particular is a character who keeps coming back and I have no idea why. He's boring as shit and stupidly overpowered in a very dull way ("my power is to have everybody's powers"). He served his purpose as a jackass end boss, but he's nowhere near an interesting enough character to be reused in, what, four games by now? Five?

>>49582810
>>49582920
And now I want comic shorts of the Servants trying to learn how to play chess and failing to a amazingly hilarious degree.

>>49581635
It has been implied(but never outright stated) that the scrapped "Ilya Route", where Rin still summoned Counter Guardian EMIYA, is EMIYA's past.

>>49582946
On the topic of Origins, what Type Moon characters have had their Origins revealed?
The only one I know of is Shiro's.

>>49582983
He's like that dickhead noble we have in all our games that is a huge threat and ends up becoming a recurring villain.

>>49583012

Sakura's origin is Worms.

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>>49583007

>>49583029
Illya is jailbait, Sakura is maggot bait.

>>49583065

F/SN Illya is 18. She's legal.

Prisma Illya is jailbait though.

>>49582569
>Oh and Earth has this whole spilt personality thing going.
Alaya is not part of Gaia
Alaya is the collective Will of Humanity
Her and Gaia don't get along.

>>49582983
Just games? He's been in Stay Night, Hollow Ataraxia, CCC, Grand Order, and will feature as a playable character in Extella later this year. That's not counting his appearances in the light novel spin-offs.

>>49583012

There's a bunch in Kara no Kyoukai, because there's a character who has the ability to reveal to people their "origin".

Apparently knowing your own origin is a Very Bad Thing and can drive you nuts.

>>49583112
Alaya and Gaia are separate, but they are both part of the Counter Force which itself is a fragment of the superentity called "the world" (i.e. the godlike spirit that surrounds planet Earth and generates the reality-field that overlays the lifeless hellscape that the space rock truly is).

>>49583029
Sakura's is "Imaginary Numbers", then I think it got twisted by the grail into something else.

>>49583012
Kerry has Severing and Binding as his Origin, it's how his Origin Bullets fuck up Magi.
I THINK Kotomine's origin is revealed, and it's well suited for healing, but I can't remember it.

>>49582833
Rin gets to break the rules in Heaven's Feel, and kicks a lot of ass, but ends up losing anyway because she can't bring herself to kill.

>>49583153
Apparently someone can also control your mind if they know your Origin and the right magic rituals.

>>49583120
Strange Fake might actually do something interesting with him seeing as his husbando is involved.

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>>49582727
Prisma Gil is the fucking best, him going apeshit over Angelica using Enkidu was the best

>>49582983
>my power is to have everybody's powers
>not: my power is to have the original version of everybody's powers

dumb fakerposter

>>49583153
>knowing your own origin is a Very Bad Thing and can drive you nuts.
Even if it doesn't drive you nuts, just knowing what it is permanently effects your magic, forever.
Like Shirou was an incompetent magus to begin with, but he COULD have learned stuff. The second he learned his Orgin and Elemental alignment? He was fucked.

Like your Origin, and to a much lesser extent your Alignment, effect your magic to a small degree normally, but knowledge of what they are magnifies that effect.

>>49583160
>Sakura's is "Imaginary Numbers"

No, that's once again her elemental affinity, which is a totally different thing from her origin. Sakura's origin has never been mentioned.

>>49583160
>Imaginary Numbers
That's a magical alignment, the "shadow element". Sakura's origin is as unknown.
>I THINK Kotomine's origin is revealed, and it's well suited for healing, but I can't remember it.
"Open Wound", a concept that makes him good at psychologically damaging others, gives him excellence at spiritual surgery (he's a very accomplished white mage), and never lets his own spirit heal.

>>49583207
>>49583211
My mistake, her original Alignment was Ether(the 5th of the 'normal' elements) and it was changed to Imaginary Numbers.

>>49583197
Still, if I had any say in the matter, I'd rather he wasn't even in SF at all. But I don't have any say, so whatever.

>>49583205
So if you wanted to be an absolute troll and had unlimited resources the best thing to do would be to head to the clock tower with a megaphone and just ruin mages forever?

>>49583153
Kara no Kyoukai is pre-Nasuverse, so some things in it are wonky. And even then, we have the brocon girl casually bring up her own Origin like it's something every magus learns.

>>49583237

You wouldn't accomplish much unless you have some means of finding out people's origins. It's not a trivial task. The guy in KnK was special, possibly unique.

>>49583237
You wouldn't ruin them, but you would heavily taint their magical ability.
Shirou was fucked because his Element and Alignment are the same thing.

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>look up Type Moon wiki for Shirou's Origin
>"He has an Origin of "Sword" and Elemental Affinity of "Sword" as well"
kek

>>49583252

The brocon girl was one of the people who Araya told her origin to.

>>49583012
KnK's Shirou has Worthlessness as his Origin.

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>>49583234
>My mistake, her original Alignment was Ether(the 5th of the 'normal' elements) and it was changed to Imaginary Numbers.
Still technically inaccurate. Imaginary numbers is her real element, she got forcibly mutated to become the Water element by the Matou.
She combines both elements in the last few days of HF, retaining the Water aspect of "Restraining" and granting it the shadow aspect of "creating a different world". It makes a deadly field of spiritual tendrils appear that grab and bind her foes.
She later upgrades that to being able to drag people into a closed off reality entirely, the ultimate aspect of imaginary numbers.

>>49583286
Shirou is fucking weird, and it's not completely clear if it's because Avalon is inside him or not.
Because Prisma Ilya showed a Shirou who doesn't have Avalon, who is still a Sword.
He might have just been born a Sword.

>>49583153
Just knowing your Origin can do bad things, but what that guy does is Awaken it. Which is basically a process that causes all the parts of your soul and mind that don't align with your Origin to flake away until you embody it completely. Which while making people incredibly powerful, is really bad for being a functioning human.

>>49583153
>Apparently knowing your own origin is a Very Bad Thing and can drive you nuts.
That was fiddled with (retconned), essentially knowing your origin is fine, but it can be "awakened" which causes you to become nothing but a vehicle for enacting your origin on the world around you (that's what happened to Lio).

>>49583304
Fair enough, Heaven's Feel is the route I know the least about, and Sakura the Heroine I know the least about, because I don't like Heaven's Feel.

>>49583286
His original Elemental Affinity was fire, but when Avalon was implanted in him it slowly began to change to Swords.
Not sure if the same thing happened to his Origin or if his Origin was always Swords

>>49583344
I have NEVER heard anything about his original Affinity being Fire, and the Avalon thing for both was always something fans, or Tohsaka in-universe, assumed.

And neither explains why Prisma Ilya has a Shirou, without Avalon, who is still a Sword.

>>49583312

Prisma Illya is an alternate universe story of questionable canonicity. I wouldn't read too deep into it.

>>49581781
>Archer having Rho Aias is a real plot hole.
Not really. His status as a CG means Nasu can give him whatever the fuck he wants and it's reasonably plausible given that he can get sent anywhere. Honestly, that's one of the reasons I don't really like Archer.

>>49583361
>alternate universe story
You do realize alternate universes and time lines are a canon part of the setting right? Due to Zelretch and the Kaleidoscope?
Prisma Illya is as canon as anything else, it's just in one(or rather 'two') specific timelines.

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>>49582727
>Gilgamesh
>not made for waifu potential

>>49583385
>You do realize alternate universes and time lines are a canon part of the setting right?
Yes, but the circumstances that make them come into being don't have to apply to other universes.
Whatever reason Prisma Shirou would have an origin of sword does not matter to the rest of the multiverse, because nothing about him matters to the rest of the multiverse.

>>49580727
>Vancian casters meet non-vancian casters episode 1

>>49583385
>Prisma Illya is as canon as anything else

Nah. Nasu never worked on it, so it's essentially officially backed fanfic.

>>49582832

Such is the power of /tg/.

>>49583312

Isn't he double weird not just because both his origin and his element affinity are the same thing, but 'sword' isn't an element? Like, its not on the goddamn list, literally only Shirou has an elemental affinity for sword? Not just 'of the characters we know of' but 'probably in the entire history of the setting'.

>>49580230
Requiring a better defended anus.

>>49580670
>>49580727

Rin can't continue to use gandr blasts indefinitely. Anything she does consumes her mana, and puts a strain on her body. Her reserves are greater than that of an average magus, but far from limitless.

>>49582832
>a serious discussion of powerlevels without the wank, I wish there were more threads like this on /a/
Why would you expect anything Type-Moon related to not have already been talked about to death? Every /a/utist has already been through threads like this.

>>49583403
Except it can be used as evidence to say "maybe it wasn't Avalon that made F/SN Shirou a sword"
It doesn't confirm anything about F/SN Shirou, but it does introduce doubts about Avalon being the cause of him being a Sword.

>>49583420
Yes, Shirou is weird. Also batshit insane.

>>49583408
I could be wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure Nasu never worked on Fate/Zero, or Apocrypha, both of which are considered canon parts of the universe.

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>>49583420
>but 'sword' isn't an element?
Everything can be an element, but not being a "real" element means you get screwed out of real magic.
For example a fire mage can cast any fire spell, but not a water spell.
A sword mage is totally SOL.

>>49583445

Yes, but they could at least be civil about it. A thread like this on /a/ would have been endless 'old men' jokes and no serious discussion.

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>>49583312
>He might have just been born a Sword.
Well he's defined by Swords so the spinoff version is gonna have it too

>>49583447
>Except it can be used as evidence
No, it can't. Because that Shirou has no causal relationship with other Shirous. Fate Shirou and HF Shirou, for example, were the same person two weeks before the story began. They had to have the same soul at that time. Prisma Shirou has been a different person his entire life, and therefore nothing about his default state says anything about the default state of other Shirous.

>>49583447

Apocrypha is not canon in any way (at least not any more than Illya is). Nasu did work on Zero, even though majority of the heavy lifting was done by The Butcher.

>>49583477
So you think CCC is canon?

>>49583511

Anything written by Nasu is automatically canon. He's kind of the final authority on the series after all. Obviously, CCC happens in a different universe than the main Fate series, but still.

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>>49583477
>Apocrypha is not canon in any way
Going to tell us Fate/Grand Order isn't canon, then, even though it canonizes Apocrypha and is directed by Nasu?
I'd even agree that events in F/GO aren't canon (or at least are secondary silly-canon like Kagetsu Tohya and Fate/Hollow Ataraxia), but Grand Order acknowledges Apocrypha to the core.

>>49583528
Weird standards but I can respect that.

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>>49583511
Extraverse is a thing
I think the head theory on why magic died was that the Dead Apostles actually pulled off their ritual

>>49583528
>He's kind of the final authority on the series after all
And he approved Apocrypha, and Prisma Illya, and other stuff he didn't directly work on, but approved as canon.

>>49583465
>and no serious discussion
see
>already been talked about to death
TM threads are up literally 24/7 and have been for years. Like many other series, shows, manga, etc (even some new ones), it's already been milked for all the "serious discussion" it will get (until more shit is released). Wait for Extella.

>>49583545
I'm just getting a handle on the other guy.

I consider all things canon with the exception of Grand Order. I only barely accept that is canon just because it seems much too wacky and silly.

>>49583539

It canonises Prisma as well though.

>>49583580
Read the second line of my post.
Prisma Illya occurs only as an event.

>>49582542
Of course, the Waver/Iskander team was the best, to the point even Gil gained respect for both of them, after Waver basically being shit on by the mage school for his weakness, it was a nice end to the character arc.

>>49582709
As much as he gets shit for being edgy, and having a backstory that was probably an episode too long inturrupting the war part of the series, Kiritsugi was enjoyable to watch, and to see his view clash with Saber.

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>>49583572
full on type shit is primary canon to me
then the vidya like Extra
then side stuff
then spin offs like Prisma
then Go

>>49583619
Mordred is best Saber.

>>49583619
>EX Luck
>E on every stat but NP which is EX
Extra any gud? I have to see what's up with these gimmicky stats.

>>49583714
EX is basically something which is completely off the parameter scale.

This can either mean it's something unique or SUPER SUPER SUPER GOOD

>>49583714
As a story, Extra is pretty boring until the later stages. It's basically just a tournament arc. As a game, Extra is really, really boring, with a slow and repetitive battle system.
The last day of each week is a blast, and every other day is complete ass.
4/10 as a game. Not unplayable, but edging too close.

>>49583732
It can also mean something super super super weak, because it's just THAT much weaker than E rank.
But it's never been shown as that.

>>49583771
>because it's just THAT much weaker than E rank.
To be fair, that's usually represented as a -, like Avenger.

Japanese doesn't even have a word for canon in the sense it's being used here. Marvel/DC/Star Wars type concepts like multiple levels of canonicity, and universes within multiverses within omniverses, are completely foreign to them.

In Japan if two stories contradict each other, you don't say one is canon and the other is non-canon. You say the two stories are "parallel", placing neither above the other (even if one is a joke story that's not meant to be taken seriously). And future stories are free to mix and match elements from both, without trying to stay in the "same universe" as one of them except in the broadest of terms.

E.g. Nasu once said that Fate/stay night and Fate/Zero do not take place in the same universe - the backstory of F/SN has minor differences from Zero, and the future of Zero has minor differences from F/SN.

>>49583619
>Acher

>>49583771
>It can also mean something super super super weak, because it's just THAT much weaker than E rank.
No, that is one thing that it can't be. It can be weaker than E "in practice" but it has to have something to it that busts the scale and makes the scale meaningless. It has to bypass, it cannot represent "inferior in every degree". That'd be N/A.

>>49583798
Hell, Japanese religion doesn't even have a canon. Priests can believe and preach almost anything they want about the nature and identity of gods and buddhas, and while there's a hierarchy in place there's not much that they'd call out as "wrong".

>>49583798
Prisma Illya's author did say to please not treat his manga as a serious work and that anything in it does not hold greater meaning to Nasu's setting, though.

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>>49583572
>I'm just getting a handle on the other guy.

Well I should explain myself then.

Here's the core of my view: Nasu is the original author. He knows how everything in the franchise "should be" and how everything connects to everything, because he's the one who created it all. This would include a lot of unspoken things that he didn't actually write in the VNs because it wasn't relevant to the story. He knows how obscure magic thing X affects other thing Y, or what is the reason for Shirou's origin. He knows Zelretch's dick size, even though it's entirely irrelevant and never mentioned anywhere.

Now. Anyone who isn't Nasu, even if they have memorized every syllable of the original works, doesn't fully know how things "should be". He doesn't know the unspoken part of how things connect to each other or what is the correct dick size for Zelretch. And he might, for whatever reason, decide to include Shirou's origin or Zelretch's dick in the story, and describe it wrong. And even if Nasu supervises him, he's unlikely to read and veto every little detail that's off. So, even with best intentions, it becomes twisted. Stuff like Prisma Illya, which started as a full-on unofficial doujin and only later was "canonized", is likely VERY twisted. Thus I put it lower on the canonicity chart. (In fact I recall reading somewhere that Nasu is slightly upset that Prisma version of Luvia has become more prominent than his version, because he waited too long to do whatever he intended on doing with her.)

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>>49583916

When will they fuck?

>>49583956
Whenever I go to sleep.

>>49583956

I still find it unbelievable that there's not a single Rin x Luvia doujin out there. Even ones where they're both present they ignore each other and fuck somebody else.

Anyway, powerlevelfags in the thread oughta check out Beast Lair's full translation of the first El-Melloi Case Files light novel. It has a lot of interesting stuff, including a pretty fucking convincing show of what a serious-story Luvia can do.

>>49583916
>In fact I recall reading somewhere that Nasu is slightly upset that Prisma version of Luvia has become more prominent than his version, because he waited too long to do whatever he intended on doing with her.

This is news to me.

>>49583905
>setting
What is the exact word he used, anon?

Because Japanese uses "setting" as a loanword for "aspect of a fictional thing", which is frequently missed in translation. E.g. "Liking swords" would be referred to as one of Shirou's settings. There's also the matter of the singular being the same as the plural.

>>49583295
I don't even remember a KnK Shirou unless it was that runaway person. Which part was that in?

>>49584002
>I still find it unbelievable that there's not a single Rin x Luvia doujin out there. Even ones where they're both present they ignore each other and fuck somebody else.

Japan doesn't seem to realize how much sexual tension exists between these two. Also they seem to have forgotten Rin's own homosexual tendencies.

>>49584033

You're probably thinking of the right character, it was the kid who looked exactly like Shirou but had a different name and story.

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Holy Grail War is one of those things that I've always wanted to set an RPG campaign in, but I have no idea how to make it not total shit.

>>49584059
Oh alright. He seemed to have more in common with your generic anime school friend in tsukihime to me, so I never really thought of him that way

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>>49584035
I thought it was just because they all wanted to self insert as gross ass fat ass old men.

I sadly don't reallyhave anything to add to the conversation so i'm just posting a picture of my favorite girl.

>>49584103
Solo game or Ell melloi party under one servant

>>49584103
It's pretty much Battle Royale/Hunger Games in the World of Darkness

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>>49584125
Red Saber is best Saber

>>49584103
Well there's a lot of specific things that make it really poorly suited for a cooperative game with many players, but there's plenty of ways to have a modern setting game where the players may or may not be very experienced with magic and there's some weird ritual they need to stop

>>49584103
HGW just doesn't really work as a contemporary RPG. The Nasuverse itself is a pretty good setting for them, though.

>>49584103
When rolling for Servant genders, reduce the 50/50 chance of genderbending to only 25 or 15 percent

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>>49584133
>Whore of Babylon
>anything but a used onahole

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Ruler is asleep.

Post Sabers.

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>>49584169
Wrong Whore of Babylon anon

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>>49584205

Saber works best when you put a Rin with her.

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>>49584205
How about lightsabers?

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>>49584205

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>>49584205
Am I missing any Sabers?

>>49584260
Mysterious Heroine X

>>49584260
Where's Gawain?

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>>49584238
Na, Saber's better when she had a shitty son next to her.

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>>49584260
Saber Lancers.

>>49584260

Golden eyed titty Saber is best Saber.

In fact, those things are so big you could say she's a Zweihander! Ohohohoho~!

Now, for the question you've all been waiting for.
Can Shiki kill servants?

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>>49584277
Is Mordred a cute or just annoying?

>>49584314
Nanaya, Ryougi and Tohno can kill servants but they cannot defeat servants in combat.

>>49584260
The new Lancer and Lancer Alter versions of her from when she never picked up Excalibur but was a badass any way.

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>>49584260
As a matter of fact, yes.

>>49584103
It's probably hard to do in a co-operative style. There was one anon a while ago who was doing character creation for a game (his servant was some poet that because someone else took caster was thrust into either Rider/Archer, Noble Phantasm being some inescapable grave/hole in the ground.) I forget what system it was in, but it was PvP and I don't think we got a follow-up after he asked /tg/ for advice on what powers his servant should have. (Low luck, I somewhat remember something about Ravens/Crows being relevant?)

I could imagine it working as a "PvP" where the party is allied at first, until the final "fight/session" where they decide the winner in an all out fight against eachother.

>>49584277
>>49584315
Mordred is Best Saber

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>>49584328
Did the retcon her height? Because I remember it being 5'4", not 5'7"

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>>49584314
Can Nrvnqsr kill a Servant?

>>49584373

Nrrvrgrgrgh can't do anything to servants, but a servant would need a pretty big nuke to be able to do anything to him.

>>49580547
Rin is super talented and once she's in her true prime can pull of a variety of magical feats way beyond that of a standard Nasuverse magus.

But, due to the way magic works (or, rather, sorcery), she can never pull off certain feats. She can't effect time, nor can she mess with the soul to any meaningful degree or bring back the dead. She can't into other dimensions either. Those are True Magic domains (or Age of Gods stuff, in the case of teleportation), and she ain't got none of that shit.

Rin's primary advantage in a D&D like world would be that she can spit out powerful beamspam very quickly. Also, she can buff herself to high level fighter physical ability.

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>>49584239

>>49584238
I would like a doujin of Rin and Nero teaching virgin Mordred sex. Rin is also a virgin but pretends she knows what she is doing. Nero realizes this and bullies them both(sexually).

In the end Mordred doms both of them when her switch gets flipped because she is physically superior and refuses to be dommed .

>>49584260
Yes.

Archer Artoria
Artoria Pendragon (Hana no Miyako)
Devil Saber
Gray
Hungry Saber
King Saber
Lancer Artoria
Lancer Artoria Alter
Mordred
Mysterious Heroine X
Saber Lion

And eventually Mother Harlot, most likely. And maybe Morgan le Fay as well. There may be more versions that I did not include here.

>>49584368
The height was updated when it was revealed that Lancer Arturia's body is what Saber would look like as an adult.

>>49584454
Oh yeah. Add Jeanne d'Arc and Jeanne d'Arc Alter to that list.

>>49584402
Couldn't he suck them into the darkness to be torn apart by beasts?

>>49584423
>She can't effect time, nor can she mess with the soul to any meaningful degree or bring back the dead. She can't into other dimensions either. Those are True Magic domains (or Age of Gods stuff, in the case of teleportation), and she ain't got none of that shit.
She literally starts using one of the True Magics in-game. Kaleidoscope covers parallel universes and time travel.

Hell, just "affecting" time isn't a True Magic. Kiritsugu manages it just fine.

>>49584500
I still don't think Jeanne looks much like Saber.

>>49581748
Ajax very obviously qualifies for Berserker as much as Shielder. Lancer and Rider, too.

>>49584581
For some reason people tend to forget that many heros canonically qualify for more than one Class, even if they are only at their best in a specific class.

>>49582749
Hm, no.

It's more like...

Dragon Ball Z is a game of conkers. The bigger, faster, tougher conker smashes the other one.

Fate is a game of rock-paper-scissors. The right option trumps the wrong option. And occasionally someone uses "gun" or "heavy metal horns" instead.

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is a game of chess.

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Diogenes would be a rad Rider.

His mount would be a barrel that he would run on top of, backwards, and he would shit talk other servants into losing.

>>49584548
>She literally starts using one of the True Magics in-game.

Through a plot device only.

>>49584484

>Lancer Arturia is Saber as an adult

How did Saber get like, four cup sizes in two years?

>>49584638
I'd wager Diogenes would be Caster.

>>49584730
At his best yeah. He would still be a rad Rider.

>>49584728
It's all them growth hormones in meat... government knows the stuff ain't natural. But just look at them, no man would ban this.

Can I just watch Fate/Zero as a standalone and if not, should I really read Realta Nua or just watch the adaptation?

>>49584103
Aside from the difficulty of representing the huge array of Servant powers, the two main hurdles to a Holy Grail War game are the power gap, and the co-operation problem.

1) Power Gap: The two main sets of participants in any Grail War are the Masters and the Servants. Masters can vary in power from mundane nobodies who lucked into a Servant to badass archmagi, but all of them are definitionally weaker than any Servant, who have a similar scale of power.

So you need to be able to balance out the powers of different Servants in your party, different Masters in your party, and different Master-Servant combos in your party.

And if you manage that, you've still got some people playing Awesome Magical Ghost Warriors and some people playing Occult Nerds.

2) The Co-Operation Problem: The basic premise of a Grail War is that the last contender standing gets the prize. This is obviously tricky to deal with when you have multiple players. Sure, you can have one Master, one Servant, and maybe an ally, but... then you're stuffed. Three players, maximum, one of whom isn't even a Master or Servant but is just some rando.

A Great Grail War changes the rules by introducing Servant Teams, making things much more gameable but also far more complicated.

With both these issues in mind, two workable models for a tabletop Grail War game:
a) A small two-player game, roleplaying heavy, with one Master and one Servant working together to win a conventional Grail War. The co-operation issue is dealt with by the small, intimate nature of the game, while the power gap is dealt with by the roleplaying focus. One player already assented to being "weaker" in exchange for the social power of holding the leash.

b) A Great Grail War in which every player controls a Master-Servant duo, balanced out as a single character (so a powerful Servant means a shitty or incompatible Master, or vice-versa). This handles the power-gap, and reduces co-operation to standard party dynamics.

>>49584758
>Can I just watch Fate/Zero as a standalone

Yes. You get a bit of a different view of things if you've read the VN, but not necessarily superior one.

>should I really read Realta Nua or just watch the adaptation?

RN? No. I'd read the original, awkward sex scenes and all.

As for adaptations, the main (first) route of the original VN doesn't have a proper anime adaptation ATM, it's more of a mishmash of all the routes, and of pretty low quality.

>>49584638
>>49584730
Berserker, man.

Mad Enhancement (Philosophy) EX
Shit-Talking A+
Eye of the Blind C

Lantern of Diogenes - Blind Leading the Blind: B

>>49584755

Poor thing, rapid growth spurts like that must be mighty awkward!

>>49584796
>RN? No. I'd read the original, awkward sex scenes and all.

I got the RN patch that brings back the awkward sex scenes specifically to have that true experience, but I still kinda can't muster reading this whole thing.

>>49584767
>b) A Great Grail War in which every player controls a Master-Servant duo, balanced out as a single character (so a powerful Servant means a shitty or incompatible Master, or vice-versa). This handles the power-gap, and reduces co-operation to standard party dynamics.

Problem with this setup (if you do it as pure PVP) is that every time servants meet, somebody's going to die, and whoever dies is going to leave the campaign on the spot. So at best you'll get a one-shot out of it like that, and several of the players will only get to play for like twenty minutes or so. In the VN there's always some plot convenience that stops clashes from becoming decisive too early, but players won't operate like that. Players will kill and be killed.

>>49584834
Great Grail War, dude. I explained it in that post - it's a Grail War with Servant Teams.

Normally, that means two teams of seven Servants, one of each class, with an unaffiliated Ruler maintaining order.

In Fate/Apocrypha, a shitty spinoff with some fun ideas it squanders, the teams are Red and Black.

Black had Lancer (Vlad Tepes), Archer (Chiron), Saber (Siegfried), Rider (Astolfo), Berserker (Frankenstein's Monster), Caster (Ibn Gabirol), Assassin (Jack the Ripper), and Masters from a united mage family with their own sweet Nazi uniforms.

Red had Saber (Mordred), Archer (Atalanta), Lancer (Karna), Berserker (Spartacus), Caster (Shakespeare), Assassin (Semiramis), Rider (Achilles), with Masters that were theoretically a rag-tag group of freelancers from the Mage's Association.

Ruler was Jeanne d'Arc.

So if you've got a group of, say, four players, then they're all on the same team. Each of them plays a Master/Servant duo, and you handle the other three duos, plus the enemy team.

Hell, if you want you could have them each play a Servant... and /another Servant's/ Master, though that's likely to end in fucky power dynamics and drama.

>>49585008
Have all the players be servants with one master against another team of servants with one master.

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>>49585032
>Have all the players be servants with one master against another team of masters with one servant.

>>49585082
I wonder what kind of ridiculous servant would require that many masters...

>>49584548
She uses it via a plothax item.

Your second point is true, though Kiritsugu's time manipulation was highly limited and even that was considered and incredibly rare use of wizardry, so rare that it got his dad in trouble. The higher level time related spells in D&D are off limits to standard Nasu magecraft.

>>49584125
>>49584133
>UMU! posting

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>>49585129

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>>49585123

>>49585129
>>49585135

Nero is not for lewds! She is for filthy threesomes with a roomful of men waiting their turn.

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>>49585129
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyxME9uC_Sc

>>49584273
That's an assassin tho.

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>>49585135
meanwhile at the Moon

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>>49585146
Anon what the fuck, I though the exact same thing.

>>49584767
Aren't the different classes also poorly balanced? I seem to remember them being sabotaged by the whatever created the origin of the grail war (Beserkers are crazy and difficult to control, so any tactics are up to the master who will likely burn through command seals controlling them. Lancer's have shitty luck, which almost just means "you lose". Sabers and Archers have higher stats, as well as varying levels of magic resistance).

>>49585146
>>49585178
Divine beings can't be servants anon.

Karna would be a good one for multiple masters.

>>49585191
More or less. The game was rigged from the start.

>>49584423
>Rin's primary advantage in a D&D like world would be that she can spit out powerful beamspam very quickly
So she's a Warlock?

>>49585194
I suppose you consider the gods and goddesses that have been summoned not cannon in the extreme then?

>>49585191
>Aren't the different classes also poorly balanced?
Sort of?

The Knight classes, Saber, Archer and Lancer have high parameters on the whole. But that's not really the be all or end all.

> I seem to remember them being sabotaged by the whatever created the origin of the grail war
Einzbern, Makiri And Tohsaka.

>>49585218

Tamamo is 1/9th divine.

>>49584612
Seriously. In some of the legends, King Arthur even has a dagger that could shroud him in shadows and shit called Carnwennan, and was mentored by Merlin.

If it wasn't for the "muh honour", Arturia could have been able to qualify for Caster or Assassin as well if she really wanted too.

>>49584612
Hell, it's outright stated that Hercules would be OP as fuck if he had been summoned as an Archer.

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>>49585245

>mfw the legend where King Arthur disguises himself as a goofy gardener's apprentice to get close to Guinevere.

>>49585225
If I remember right the assassin was a trap meant to stick anyone who would try to win with underhanded techniques with an incredibly inferior servant and casters were stuck on the defense.

Riders were a wild card there in case the main families did not get a knight class.

>>49585243
Only a ninth of a god but still entirely a god.

>>49585194
Technically they can be, they just caused the Grail War to explode the one time it was tried.

I'm guessing that the five masters thing has something to do with the fixing that in this situation. Even Karna wouldn't require five dudes pulling his strings.

>>49585245
Arturia qualifies for Saber(Obvious), Lancer(Ronghonwald or however the fuck it's spelled), Assassin, and Rider.
She had the Potential for Caster, but she never actually learned to use magic, so she doesn't qualify.

>>49585261
So, basically, Archer-Shiro fucked over Illya by being summoned by Rin as an Archer, and forcing her to go the Berserker route.

>>49585301
I think she specifically wanted him as a bahsakah didn't she?

>>49585301
She summoned berserker long before archer was summoned.

>>49585301
Hercules is OP- he can be literally any class- and he's hyper OP in any of them. Berserker is his WEAKEST class.

>>49585301
Ilya summoned Berserker like a year before the events of the VN.
She had first pick at a servant/class. She intentionally summoned him as Berserker, for the raw strength boost.
Tohsaka was second to last to summon

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>>49580230
>she trades SEXUAL FAVORS WITH OLD MEN for GEMS

>>49585282
Berserker is another intentional trap option, built to all but ensure the master is drained dry by the end of the war.

Caster, meanwhile, has to deal with the built in magic resistance of the other classes.

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>>49585362

>>49585327
Yeah, it was her family trying to game the system again.

>>49585378
Yet hilariously the Einzberns realized how dangerous the "trap option" could be after the 4th War, which is why they modified Illya to be capable of handling it.
Despite the fact that Old Man Zouken only had his "grandson" summon Berserker to be cruel to him.

>>49580230
mmm haha

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>>49585382
DELETE THIS

>>49585327
Yeah, becaus the Einzberns were paranoid about betrayal, so they wanted a Servant that couldn't think for itself.

>>49585378
>Berserker is another intentional trap option, built to all but ensure the master is drained dry by the end of the war.
And Illya gets around this by being a mass of concentrated Magic Circuits in the shape of a human. This also means she only has a few more years to live, but the Einzberns don't really care about that.

>>49585442
I really wish Berserker would've managed to kill that fucking faggot Gilgamesh. The look of outrage on his face as he died would've been the best.

>>49585410
Nobody ever accused the good ol' "lets summon the Devil" Einzberns of being smart.

>>49585468
Yeah, they aren't bright, at all.

>>49585464
Eh, I like Shirou killing Gil. Just because he's a "Faker" who "Steals from the King's treasury"

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>>49585362

You mean she trades sexual favors with blonde drills for gems, surely.

>>49585468
They are the pinnacle of high Int low Wis.

>>49585494
You would think he would come to value such a unique existence as Shiro the Sword Person but he is too butthurt for it.

I want Gil to try and add Shiro to his collection.

Lewdly.

>>49585524
Fem Gil

>>49585524
I maintain that if Gil had been female she would have wanted Shirou in her treasury.
But Gil also hates Shirou because Saber, who Gil wants, obviously likes him.

>>49583012
I think it was Araya Souren with Stillness?

>>49583956
>>49584002
http://danbooru.donmai.us/posts/2290919

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>>49585517
>claw marks
>bite marks

>>49585442
Why does the nasuverse shit on parental-figures so much?

>Kiritsugi can't go back to save Illya
>His father-figure died in the dead apostle situation
>He's forced to kill his own mentor
>Rin's mother is a cripple, and her father is dead
>Kiritsugi leaves Shirou a dangerous and deadly ideal to live up to
>The Einzberns don't really care about any of the "daughters"
>Beserker's master from Zero (I forget his name)

The only good parental figures are those old people that Waver lives with, and they only survive by merit of not being involved at all.

>>49585517
>High quality gems can be bought with money
>More money = more gems

Makes sense.

>>49585524
I'd be fine without the lewdly. Just imagining Gil chasing Shirou around with a giant butterfly net (NP version of course) in an expensive car shouting "If I have you, then Saber will freely become my concubine! The King never loses!" is a pretty great mental image.

>>49585524
What I don't get is if they're going to fuck around like that, why not go whole hog and try to get Big J? It can't have worse results than trying to put the source of all evil into the grail.

>>49585607
Big J has no offensive abilities, so he wouldn't be good to summon.
Now, Samson as Berserker? That could be fun.
Or Cain as Assassin with his Noble Phantasm being either the Murder Rock, or a Conceptual Phantasm about being the First Murderer.

>>49585586
Mages are shit with no concept of right and wrong and the world would legit be better off if you put a bullet in every one of their heads.

>>49584827
You should. It is honestly pretty fun, even if it is slow at the beginning. The big battles more than make up for the hours of Shirou cooking, which you can just skip anyway.

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>>49585517

>>49585628
If "Big J" is Jesus then he can turn water to wine.
Humans are 60% water...

>>49585607
The hell would he even do, sacrifice himself to end the grail wars? Try to convince the participants that no wish is worth the bloodshed and soul destruction?

>>49585586
Do not even get started on the Matou family bullshit.

>>49585628
Not to mention killing him earn you the same times seven.

>>49585650
That would be harming someone though. Jesus would never do that.

>>49585650
Not to mention that while the mainstream version of the story makes him distinctively nice guy, apocrypha is somewhat fuzzier on the topic.

>>49585628
He is at once both an ordinary man and the Lord God Almighty. Many Christians died while hashing that out.

>>49585675
>That would be harming someone though. Jesus would never do that.
Command seals :^)

>>49585696
I doubt three would be enough to win the grail war.

>>49585696
>implying there's a magi badass enough to get a command seal to work on God the Son.

>>49585675
I don't know, but you can't say the idea is too stupid for the Einzberns to try hoping they could get some aspect of that surly motherfucker from the old testament.

>>49583732
Or it's just weird but equivalent to E, like Edison.

>>49585628
Cain as assassin would be fun. I'm no biblical scholar, but I think his murder weapon was a rock. Can you even imagine what an ex or A+ or whatever the fuck anti-person noble phantasm that's just a rock would look like? I mean when it comes down to it he has the mark of god, that, and probably near human stats otherwise so it would be interesting to see in action

>>49585774
No no, you are right they probably tried that.

Heck the second war (I think) is a complete mystery so that could have been what happened.

>>49585857
Wasn't he also cursed to reincarnate until he felt guilty for what he did and repented or something? Would that be represented as (unlike other holy spirits) him remembering every time his holy spirit has been summoned?

>>49585876
Ah never mind. According to the wiki the second war was just an absolute bloodbath where no participants survived.

>>49585895
I don't remember that.
I believe he was just banished to the east and never allowed to return.

Isn't Assassin always one if the Hassams?

>>49585993
In the main Grail Wars?
Yes.
All the other Grail Wars?
No.

>>49585993
>>49586017
That was the intention, but other heros can "qualify" for Assassin despite not being summonable.
And Angrya Manyu's corruption of the grail allowed for non-Hassans being summonable as Assassin, along with Anti-heros and outright Villains.

>>49585944
Fair enough, it's just some fictionalized interpretation for the JRPG (Devil Survivor) then.

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What if there was a Grail War that only summoned Berserkers?

>>49586076
Then everyone would die.

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>>49585642

>See this Shero? It's mine.

>>49586076
Half the Masters dead in first day from being sucked dry.

>>49586076
It would be resolved quickly and efficiently

>>49586115
Are berserkers really that draining? I thought Matou just had a bad case of worms.

>>49586076
>>49586115
I want a series about the poor fuckers that playtested and bug fixed the Grail War to stop shit like the Berserker Glitch from happening.

>>49586133
Well according to Rin, or I think it was Rin, all Berserkers thus far in the Fuyuki Grail have died from lack of Prana.

This isn't the most detailed and comprehensive data set mind you. There have only been 2 Berserkers in the Fuyuki war prior to the fifth. If we consider other wars in existence and consider the data, then she's probably half right.

>>49586133
If I recall, the worms were acting as substitute Magic Circuits because Kariya hadn't developed his, so they were actually the only thing allowing him to keep Berserker around in the first place. It was because Berserker was so draining that the worms were eating him faster and faster.

>>49586183
Damn this Kariya guy sounds like he was dealt a shitty hand. What thing is he from? I've only played Fate/Stay Night

>>49586217
fate/zero.

His life was suffering. Most characters in Zero were suffering.

>>49586217

Fate/Zero