Who Wants To Unfuck Destiny's Lore?

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>>49534379

>Guardians can die just like everyone else.
Their armor and light do a lot to keep that from happening, but apart from death saves or standard amounts of tabletop character resurrection, you won't be seeing them respawn. This keeps it more in line with the actual lore, where it was a risky move for Rezyl Azzir to intentionally die so he could ambush a Kell.

>Guardians don't all work directly for the Vanguard.
Most work through a faction representative, either to facilitate their own interests (New Monarchy), or so the Vanguard can avoid any backlash from working with morally questionable individuals, since technically, they're working for, say, Dead Orbit, and not the Vanguard.

>The Vanguard is basically a security council for The City, setting up expeditions and assignments.
There is an elected head for each sect of Guardians (Titans, Warlocks, and Hunters), as well as a representative for The Speaker. If a tie vote is reached on a particular subject, which rarely happens, it's brought before the Cryptarchs.

>The Speaker is not the type of dude who would have casual chats with any Guardian who washed up like in the game.
He's basically the pope / the emperor, so he's going to have security. This is a shady guy- I mean, he's a religious leader in a Bungie product for Christ's sake.

>Guardians aren't necessarily "good".
All Guardian even means is one able to wield The Traveler's light. It doesn't dictate what they do with it. And this could even be a point of contention among the very few extremist who don't trust The Traveler. Although most Guardians do work for The City in some capacity, it's not a fate shared by all. Some places wouldn't even offer shelter to a Guardian, or allow them into their village, seeing them as a burden and potential danger. So while, yes, there are songs sung of great Titans and all that, the job, on some level, at least to the average person, is thankless.

CONT.

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>>49534387

>The Last City IS the last city, but it isn't the last town.
There are pockets of civilization across the solar system, or at the very least on Earth. Perhaps some trapped researchers on Venus- that kind of thing too.

>The alien factions present have a bit more gray area.
Meaning, not all Fallen are going to blow your head off on sight. Some think their brothers have shamed themselves- that they somehow upset The Traveler and have thus fallen from it's graces. To this end, they might try and help humanity in some way, or at least remain exiled from their Fallen house. This would usually mean they end up as a gunrunner, beggar, or information broker in a human village. Mostly illicit shit, as very few people like seeing a Fallen alive, much less prospering. However, in very rare cases, one might, for example, find a Fallen that's become a baron of a human town, having lost an arm defending the villagers from attack, but gained their respect.

>No one actually thinks the Fallen or the Hive were ever bless by The Traveler.
They WERE, but nobody, PCs least of all, know that upfront. Perhaps this could lead to a plot point of meeting a Fallen who's able to wield some light, however small, and prove they were once the children of The Traveler too.

>The Hive are a single consciousness apart from royalty.
Most Hive don't even have any conscious thought- they simply follow instructions sent by a higher level of the Hive. It's thought that this is simply how they function as a species, but one might eventually learn of their grotesque relationship with the five* Worm Gods (*four, eventually). Basically, all Hive are infested with the larvae of these Worm Gods, driving them to feed off constant conquest and destruction lest the worm grow unsatisfied and consume them instead. The Hive royalty still have worms within them, but it's more of a threat than an iron hand, as the Worm Gods would prefer to keep intelligent beings running their army destruction.

CONT.

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>>49534398

>The Hive are way more like moth people now instead of crusty cicada alien things.
It's got those too, don't get me wrong, but the higher up in Hive 'society' you get, the more flare they have. Crota, for example, would look fabulous as shit with big wings, and large antennae tipped with light hairs. This is of course because the less corrupted by the worms one is, the more they look like their true form.

>The Cabal have a secret off-and-on truce with humanity.
They'll still let their troops slaughter each other, but they won't actively try to fuck each other over whilst they deal with a more important mutual problem- For example, the Fallen using SIVA. Obviously this would cause an uproar if people actually found out about it, even if it's done with their best interests in mind.

>This is a terrible idea, but maybe The Speaker is one of the original humans who created the Exo.
They tried simply making robotic bodies, but the minds of the researchers who tried the transfer had their minds rejected, and subsequently died. So then they gave the Exo the capacity for true though, but that also meant they developed their own personalities. All the researchers, upon 'jacking in', tried to force out these personalities, and failed. Except for The Speaker, who was able to mentally coexist with the Exo personality. And being the complete fucker that he is, he decided to be a total fucking peppet master by acting like (or perhaps even believing) they could speak to The Traveler. And every time people get too pissed about what he's doing, to the point of revolt, he "dies" and simply modifies his voice, and becomes the "new" Speaker.

CONT.

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>>49534412

THINGS THAT ARE STILL PROBLEMS:
>Everything
>Not enough different creatures to kill.
>Not enough different creatures to talk to, and thus not enough situations to solve either non-violently, or only semi-violently.
>Basically, not enough reasons to talk instead of shoot.
>Not enough cool fantasy shit, like giant wise frogs or weird beetle men, or one-off creatures and aliens
>I literally forgot The Vex even existed until just now
>Whatever, it's not like they're good for anything but shooting anyway- they want to LITERALLY END ALL REALITY and have basically no personality. They're pretty straightforward and don't lend themselves to conversation very well.

alright cool, well, I think we solved a lot today. meet up again tomorrow, team?

>>49534398
What you wrote down about the fallen is incorrect. Long story short the traveller used to be at their planet and gave them all the stuff that the traveler gave us, and then shit hit the fan, and the traveller bailed.

They followed it here and are now absolutely pissed off at the fact that the traveler chose some other species. It doesn't say if they showed up before or after the collapse, but it does show that the fallen all hate humans for "stealing" the traveller. Btw they praise the traveller as a robot god, that's why they infuse them self with machines so they can become closer to god.

>>49535514
Okay, that's actually kind of dope, but I'm not "wrong". What I said might not be 100% accurate canon, but seeing as the whole point of the thread is fixing the lore to actually work better in a tabletop and roleplaying context, that's sort of the point.

>>49534379
I read through most of the grimores. They talk about the origins of the hive and how they came from a planet full of different alien species and the traveler, a giant talking whale, and the how oryx was a girl but became a guy.

How the queen was born already intelligent as fuck and recognizedo the council of nine at birth, "maybe not the 9, but fuck I need them relevent in the story already"

And how rasputin and all the other war minds used all they could for fight back the darkness and halt their advances, but nothing worked, so he just went to sleep and started planning shit, even things like if the traveller was to leave earth. He would fire all weapons at the traveller to stop it from leaving.

And the vex are the most complex of all the bad guys, being that they have had interdimensionalready wars with the hive, we're once organic life, and choose not to fuck up a time line with time shenanigans to make sure everything goes by one path. They are the most peaceful, if they wanted they could destroy everything already, and they even blame the guardian for being the darkness.

>>49535681
Oh, shit well yea. I can see fallen working with humans, house of judgment though, all the other houses of fallen would rather kill then work with a human. Judgement are kind of forced to work with humans as well. I would see you working with psions more then fallen as the main people you'd talk too. Cabal have nothing against humans, and would do anything to get to a common goal, only if you don't challenge the big guys, you'll be fine.

>>49535743
So aliens you have to work with are awoken, house of judgement, psions (maybe), and xur.

>>49535774
Awoken aren't really aliens, but I get you.

>>49535699
I actually don't know much Vex lore, all I was saying is that there isn't really much there to draw on plot-wise other than "vex are doing bad thing so stop them" since it's not like you'd ever be able to have a conversation with one.

And I can't believe I forgot to mention the war minds. What a cool fucking idea those are.

>>49535897
Vex are hard for a plot, I mean high level shit comes around and you wanna throw time travel / being wiped straight from existence when someone fails a saving throw sure, can horrify players that way.

The one thing for a minor plot that you could use is that the Vex Operate in networks, they're not lead by a single mind, and all Vex in an area would typically operate under one.

So rather than lead a Crusade against all Vex and locating the BBEG Central Core, just fucking take out a Network head like Sekrion was.

>>49536029
That's actually pretty good. Plus their overwhelming numbers and the possibility of you literally not existing would make it pretty tense.

Honestly, shit gets really interesting once you push past Jupiter. At that point you're talking about the Nine and the Jovians. Both of which are so fucking vague in the lore at this point (to my knowledge) that you'd (I'd) have to basically make up their intentions, desires, etc, from scratch. Technically if it's to be believed that Jovians were once human, a PC could become one, but would have to give up all Light-based powers. Eh. That's actually probably a stretch- but I digress.

>>49535897
Awoken would be like elfs, yaknow. And cabal the orcsame, I guess.,

>>49536029
And what this guys said about the vex, they do have singular consciousness now since we blew up the black heart, and they had it before, but now they are back to the whole individual thing, while the big bosses in the strikes are trying to fix shit.


The best way to involve vex (in my opinion atleast) besides just trying to kill them would be to make a bad guy like skolas do a thing. Being that skolas not only wanted to use the vex as the way of gaining new power and combining all the houses under one house. Heck he did one of those things, so just make them relevant through people trying to use them, or somthing.

these are more specific story points, and less lore points, but I figured I'd toss em out if anyone wants to give feedback anyway:

I thought about having a lower level hive- not a mob, but definitely not royalty- reach singular consciousness by somehow being cut off from the Hive. Which is very disconcerting for everyone, since it was thought that lower hive didn't even have the capacity for thought. And he (and the PCs) don't know if the worm inside him is simply inert, or if the Worm Gods are doing this intentionally, but everyone involved is very confused as to not only how this happened, but also why it hasn't been corrected by the worm. Since I'm an unoriginal shit, he'd take the name Nemo (for "nobody", since he doesn't know who he is without the hive). I don't actually have the reasons why this would happen since I've only thought about it for like three minutes now.

I also think it'd be dope to explore The Speaker being a shady little shit. You could be shoved out the door on an emergency mission to recover a deceased Guardian's powerful blade, since maybe the Fallen scavenging parties are closing in on where he died, to which the obvious question would be "why didn't we just get it sooner?" The answer being, "because nobody was supposed to know he died. He was just MIA until now", to which, again, you'd ask "why?". Anyway, yada yada, They find the guy in a sealed room, having bled out long ago, but the room is a fucking mess. There's blood everywhere. Why would there be blood everywhere if he sealed himself in this room? And this Titan's body is slumped over a table, one hand clutching the sword you came for, the other clutching a ghost. HIS ghost. Why would somebody destroy their own ghost, thereby dooming themselves?

CONT.

>>49536421
Well, what the PCs would eventually realize is the blood and small tears of fabric across the room are from The old Speakers guard, from long ago. This Titan had realized The Speaker can't actually talk to The Traveler, and his Ghost lead the guard right to him, leading to a big fight, which he won, but was gravely wounded in. Being an Exo, he knew that once he died, his Ghost would simply revive him, and he wouldn't remember The Speaker's treachery. So he chose instead to kill his companion, and die with some dignity. After that, the Guards ghosts showed up to remove the bodies and quickly seal the hatch.

Anyway, sorry about shitty formatting. I'm on a phone.

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>>49536177
Yeah, it does seem like the Fallen's thing to abuse technology. I guess I don't know why the Vex would bother listening to them, but that's easy enough to explain away. Plus it's a good reason to involve the Cabal in an enemy-of-my-enemy capacity.

>>49534379
Suggestion here.
One of the most overlooked aspects of Destiny's lore is where Guardians come from. As I recall, they're long-dead humans who have been called back up, so to speak. (This is why I headcanon that, because the player character in Destiny is revived near Baikonur Cosmodrome, the player character is actually Yuri Gagarin, Valentina Tereshkova, or some other Soviet-era cosmonaut.) At any rate, this could give you a lot of potential background stories for your players to play around with, becuase you could be literally anyone from human history.

>>49536531
That's absolutely killer, and I hadn't even thought about it. I was always focused more on the "why" of 'why do Guardians have to be zombies', which already brings up interesting questions, but this makes it way more personal to the PCs instead of just saying "I don't know, you woke up."

what the hell happened to the Seven Seraphs faction?

>>49536989
They got rid of it. For whatever reason. They sounded cool.

>>49535514
>s
Actually there's now evidence that the Fallen showed up before the collapse. In the mission where you steal the stealth codes from Rasputin, there's an interactable that has Cayde mention that they were testing Fallen tech there, evidently before the Collapse.

>>49534398
>The hive have a single conciousness.

No, the Hive are each a separate individual. Thrall are just dumb as shit and usually die before becoming anything, but you always start as one. From the Malok Grimoire entry.

>Your Thrall strength now is Acolyte strength
>Your Acolyte strength now is Knight strength
>Your thieving pride is known and fed

>>49534387
>Guardians are not necessarily good

This has been confirmed by new grimoire stuff. Before the City, the people that Ghost resurrected were all sorts. You had people that wanted to help, people that wanted to be left alone, and some people who just became warlords.

>>49536177
The Cabal aren't really orcs, in the same way the Fallen aren't really orcs.

They're not like the Hive/Vex in that they have wants and needs like people, but their culture and general outlook is so alien as to be totally opposed.

Of course, with the Fallen there's less guarantee. Variks seems pretty chill, if pragmatic, and there's hintings that there might have been/might be Fallen guardians.

>>49535699
The queen being "born" is kind of misleading. Mara Sov was evidently some high level person in the mass exodus from the inner system during the collapse, and when she "born" as an awoken she still had her adult smarts and some of the knowledge.

>>49536531

From what it sounds like, they might be somehow related to the three original astro/cosmonauts that made initial contact with the Traveller on Mars.

>>49537564
... Didn't Yuri die in the 60's? How would he be on Mars like two hundred years later?

Maybe I have my dates messed up.

>>49536531
That's kinda silly. Especially because who they were before they were Guardians is usually left to be totally unimportant. No one remembers who they were, and there's not even evidence their faces stay the same. Exos can sometimes go rooting in their old memories because of how they were built, but humans and awoken get no such luxury because their brains completely rot or something.

Also, not everyone has to die to become a Guardian. I believe it's mentioned somewhere that Ghosts scan living people while looking for their Guardian.

>>49537513

Apparently there's still rugged individualists living outside the city, but it's not that many. The first ones awoken by the Ghosts became Warlords, but eventually the Iron Lords stepped in to beat them all down and establish the Last City, and after the Iron Lords fell, the revived characters became the Guardians.

>>49537594
Most of them became Guardians. There's a collective of pacifist guardians living somewhere in the System, Osiris and his group are a thing. I don't see why there couldn't be some more.

The Iron Lords became the first group of unified people who were all carrying the Light, but there's no evidence that they were everyone.

>>49534412
The Cabal had a pretty open truce. Fuck off from Mars and we'll leave you alone for now.

But that was just the small scouting force that it's in the system, because they probably realized pretty early on they just stepped in shit that was way above their pay grade.

>>49534412
>This is a terrible idea, but maybe The Speaker is one of the original humans who created the Exo.
This is a terrible idea. Why would you even bring that up.

>Hive were ever bless by The Traveler.
They weren't.

>>49537592
That's wrong too though.

Only a single living person has ever been able to use any kind of light. And he didn't get his own ghost. He had to take one from a dead guy.

>>49537672
Hey I said it was shit

I'm just saying there needs to be something to The Speaker other than "he's kind shifty I guess"

>>49537588

Might have been a different Yuri? It's been stated that the origins of the Guardians would be explored later, but there does seem to be an echo of that in Destiny lore already. One of the guys on the Destiny team gave a series of extensive interviews (or one long interview?) that went over a whole lot of Destiny lore.

Found a link, but of course this is GameInformer so it's also a huge shill for the game. So "[TRIGGER WARNING]" and all: contents of this link may contain heavy shilling.
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2016/08/24/what-s-going-on-in-destiny-s-story-2016-edition.aspx

>>49537626

True. There's a whole lot of splinter factions, and while the Iron Lords might have held sway for a good while, they weren't the only faction out there. Numerous splinter factions rose, fell, or were too rebellious and got killed by the others. Eventually you are left with New Monarchy, Dead Orbit, and Future War Cult who enter into an uneasy and distrustful truce to keep the City stable, even though they have their own divergent goals and philosophies. And, of course, there's other factions that have cropped up after or have been around in the background.

>>49537725
Yeah, there are factions that we simply haven't interacted with but are mentioned to still exist. I believe there's a mention of Seven Seraphs on one of the PA announcements, and you could just fluff out some new ones, using the existing three just as a template for ideas.

>>49537718
He's a construct of the Traveller. Like a big ghost that doesn't need a person. Or, he is the First Guardian, directly linked to the Traveller.

Also, I'd like to say that I am totally against the Traveller being a baddie. Maybe it's not as clean cut good as we're told, but it's still the correct path.
—The Sky is the harder way. But it is kinder.—

>>49537765

Seven Seraphs sounds like a play on Seven Samurai, Magnificent Seven, others like that. A common theme that Seven warriors form a band and kick some ass together. It's possible their story follows something like that, and we might see some new relics for them like we're seeing with the Iron Lords.

>>49537765

Could be the Traveller is just scared. It's diminished and fleeing the Darkness in a bid to survive. It's implied that Rasputin might have caused the big hole in it to keep it from escaping, and its last ditch efforts to save itself were to release a wave of Light to destroy the Darkness and release the Ghosts to start reviving dead warriors in the hopes they would protect it, or Guard it. After that it's been dormant, probably from the damage and exertion.

Consider the Speaker loves himself some Motes of Light, which are created by defeating the Darkness and achieving great feats. It's possible he uses those Motes to help feed or repair the Traveller in the hopes it'll have enough Light replenished to become active again. Of course, if that happens, it might try to escape again, or possibly decide it's better off with the Guardians and make its stand, considering the Guardians have defeated Gods to defend it.

First reply from a tl;dr standpoint. Your first post a shit. You apparently don't know the lore as you completely skip over almost all the lore. The lore is solid. Read the damn grimoire. Half or more of the items I glanced over are already in the lore.

>>49537868
Well, the Dreams of Alpha Lupi seem to imply that it's made up it's mind about making a stand on Earth after it gets beat the fuck up. It's tired of running.

Also, worth noting, the giant white ball that is the Traveller is actually an artificial body the Light lives in. It's not even particularly comfortable.

>>49537896

Lore's not exactly accessible with Grimoire Cards since it's outside the game. They've said they're putting more in it with Rise of Iron since they're finally understanding how awfully they fucked up the initial release and their promises to the fans.

Still, before you want to start asking for sweeping changes to Destiny Lore, it's probably a good idea to read up on what there is to it.

>>49537765
>>49537868
Agreed. It's much cleaner if The Traveler is simply out for its own interests. And whether that ends with it running away some more, or making a stand with humanity, it's all the same.

>>49537765
Pretty sure the Seven Seraphs were supposed to be warminds, or heavily related in some way, but you could be right.

>>49537956
Isn't there also a theory backed up by in game lore snippets that the traveler is actually the darkness and the Fallen are the light, and guardians are agents of the darkness who think they are agents of the light and are just being tricked by the Traveler into thinking they are on the side of the light because the traveler lies and says it's the light?

>>49538186

No, not really.

Early concepts had the Traveller being related to the Darkness in some way, but this seems poorly fleshed-out and seems to have been dropped entirely as a story point.

Hints included the Black Garden curving like it was inside a big sphere (hint, hint) and the Traveller's mysterious motivations, but ultimately those don't seem to have ended up in the final game.

>>49538228
I think it was supposed to be that the darkness had infected the Traveller or some such and so we had to break inside it and kill the Darkness.

But yeah, that appears to have been almost totally scrapped.

>>49538264
Better for it. "the religious / AI thing was bad all along" is pretty well worn territory for Bungie.

Having it just be a weird, fucked up mass of light stuffed inside a big uncomfortable ball as it runs away from a truly terrifying threat is way better.

>>49537935
That is like saying any other setting with additional multimedia items are inaccessible. You can read the entire Grimoire online without the game.

The complaint about it not being in game ( though a whole lot is if you pay attention) stems in part from the breadth and quality of the Grimoire.

>>49534387
Guardians are able to die just like everyone else. The respawning is due to the Ghost channeling the Traveller's Light to revive you. That is why in darkness zones it either takes more time or you wipe, as the light cannot reach darkness zones. And revives from your fireteam are Ghost-to-Ghost resuscitation.

To kill a Guardian you must kill their Ghost. They aren't Zombies, they're Liches. And they aren't all good as has been discussed. And they aren't all part of the Vanguard. Hell, technically Lord Saladman isn't Vanguard.

In the lore when Guardians die it is either the darkness getting their ghost or carpet bombing.

>>49538604

They hired an actual SciFi writer to write the Grimoire Cards, so they have a consistent narrative to them and a consistent feel that really helps tie them together.

Destiny is unique in that they stuffed a lot of lore into the cards outside the game proper, though much remains. Generally speaking, stuff should be able to stand on its own in its own medium. For example, the Star Wars movies need to stand on their own as movies before you rope in any books, TV shows, or comics. Additional multimedia shouldn't be required for the audience to understand the story's basic structure, even if it does flesh it out more.

Still, I wasn't saying it's completely inaccessible. I've read a good number of the cards, myself. I also agree that they are quite quality pieces of writing, and deserve to be in the game proper.

>>49538672
It would be nice for them to be in the game proper. But most folks seem to have glossed over the story that is in the game. There is a lot of it in there. And it is more logical when you play the Taken King questified sequence.

The root storyline is solid, if overly urgent. And the expansions have all broadened and continued plot threads. Combine that with idle chatter and gear flavor text, and you get a pretty damn rich world just with what is in game.

Things I didn't really notice in the hresd that you don't have to fuck up existing lore to bring interest:

The Jovians (The Nine, their servants) are very mysterious, and you can take all or none of the possibilities given as plot hooks.

The Ahamkara. After the Great Ahamkara Hunt they were "assumed extinct" but what secrets they may hide given that the Wish Dragons were of great power, oh listener mine.

The lost Warminds: Rasputin chose his slumber after crippling the Traveller. But what truely became of the other Warminds throughout the system?

>>49538724
It really isn't rich. It's sparse as fuck.

Unless you're actively seeking out all possible information, the game does absolutely fuck all with even telling you what the fuck is going on. They give you like twenty seconds of info on who you're about to kill, then you kill them, and everyone goes "THIS IS A GREAT VICTORY FOR THE CITY. EVERYONE WILL REMEMBER THIS DAY." or some such nonsense.

Basically anything actually meaningful and cool isn't actually in the game. Like, what, Oryx can take people? Why? Is that a hive power? Oh, it's actually a really fucking cool story about god worms and shit? Well why didn't you TELL me that?

Fucking- The Black Garden? I STILL don't know what the fuck I was supposed to have done by the end of that original story. Who the fuck is The Exo Stranger? "I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to explain"? FuuUUUuUuUuUUck yOOOOOoooOuuuuu.

You can read all the quest text, and listen to all the dialogue in Rise Of Iron, and they STILL don't even tell you what the fuck SIVA is. They don't tell you what the main fucking enemy you're fighting is.

It's nice that at least they tried with Taken King, having actual fucking characters like Cayde and Eris interact and bring up relevant fucking information. And by having a final boss that you at least have context for why he's angry with you. But that shit should be the bare minimum of effort, not worthy of praise.

Fuck me- the closest we ever got to grimoire information in-game was the Bond Brothers strike. I loved hearing about their loyalty and command structure and insane tactics. But the rest of the game is totally devoid of any of that richness.

>>49538894
So no, you didn't pay attention. Some details are limited, but if you didn't understand why you were doing things, that isn't on the game.

The core Vanilla Story is about starting to heal the Traveller. The Heart of the Black Garden was stoping that.

The Exo stranger is tied through the Vex and the cyclic timeline aspects of the plot, but is mostly a hook for later and a guide acknowledging you as special. Because you are The Guardian.

And SIVA is a Golden Age nanomachine took for colonization efforts that is under Elinski control and running past their understanding.

That's all provided in game.

>>49539027
I'll take your word that's it's in the game, but in that case, it was explained VERY fucking poorly. Even Dark Souls, which is told primarily through NPCs laughing at you, and random item descriptions, I had an easy time understanding, without looking shit up online. I found Destiny to be very poorly told.

>The core Vanilla Story is about starting to heal the Traveller. The Heart of the Black Garden was stopping that.
Do they ever actually say that? I'm not fighting you on this, I haven't played the vanilla story in a very long time, but I just don't remember them ever actually making it clear.
All I remember is going to the reef for no reason, then my character says we need to go to the black garden for some reason, and I killed some vex to do so, then I went there and killed some bigger vex.

>SIVA is a Golden Age nanomachine took for colonization efforts that is under Elinski control and running past their understanding
I'm saying what it actually is. Yeah, I get it- it's robo-aids. Big deal. I'm saying in what context would someone have made robo-aids, and why would it be desirable for colonization. More to the point, why would the Iron Lords have wanted it in the first place to go looking.

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"There is no immortality of soul, thus there is no greater good. Therefore everything is permitted."

>>49539140
For the healing the Traveller, the shard that you recover from the Hellmouth where the hive was sucking it with darkness is "restored" and then the Speaker talks about it beginning to heal in the final cutscene.

Smart Matter is used throught Glimmer. Engrams. If you can reform materials on the fly, you take blanks for colonization and use it to build from there. This is extrapolation, yes. But that's the implication of it. It's easier to get there and use nano machine fabrication to make the right took than bring the wrong tool and have to ship things again.

I am interested in them furthering plots more than anything though. Like witht how Aluk-Hul and Malok are both threats due to the power vacuum left by killing Oryx.

>>49539339
Fair enough. But I'm not going to give out any awards for being present. They still do an ass of a job at actually telling their story. Hopefully Destiny 2 is more Taken King and less Vanilla Destiny.

Agreed. I thought the Oryx power vacuum was cool too.
>are both threats
Don't you mean were? Or did I miss some part where they didn't actually die when I killed them?

>>49539574
Not gonna deny that the telling isn't light. Or at least easy to get lost in the shuffle. I like how they've handled both year 2 and 3. That there are improvements in method, now that the core is better established.

I refer to most things in Destiny in the present tense when it is in game activities due to cyclicly experiencing them through different timelines (just like everytime you wipe in a darkness zone your respawn is the universe saying "maybe it didnmt happen like that...") and it is not a habit easily broken.

But given that Sepiks Perfected exists, I guess you can't 100% say they won't come back somehow.

>>49539574

The hierarchy of the Hive can only be truly killed when you kill them in their throne worlds (: an alternate dimension they hide their own deaths in). I'm not sure Oryx is dead because I'm not actually sure you kill him in his throne world, and if you didn't kill any of the others in theirs, they might not be dead.

Crota is dead as fuck, though. First you kill his soul before it can be summoned, and then you kill his body in his throne world before it can be reunited with his soul. Or did I get that backwards and you kill his body first?

Holy shit I want to play a Destiny RPG now. God dammit OP

>>49539763
Yes, Oryx is dead. Only ascendant hive have throne world's though. Alak and Malok both has the potential to become ascendant, hence why we had to nip that in the bud.

The Death-Singers are still alive in their realms though IIRC.

>>49539763
>>49539824
There is an attempt to summon Crota back to our plane, whih we stop. And then in Crota's End we enter his plane to kill him. He is as dead as we understand Hive to get. But with the combination of the Worms, Throne Worlds, and Sword Logic. The functions of the Hive are mysterious.

>>49540044
Should have >>49539855

Oops.

I like how many options there are available for campaigns.

>>49539763
>>49539855
>>49540044

What in god's name is a Throne World?
And what classifies and "ascendant" Hive?

>>49540183
Pocket dimensions with different physics/laws of existence controlled by sword logic and generated by extremely powerful hive. Being ascendant is tied to having one of these throne world's or vice versa.

>>49540183

Throne Worlds are dimensions where Hive Ascendants live. It's where they go when they die so they can respawn, and it's also where they can only truly be killed. You have to be very strong in Sword Logic in order to generate one, and need to furnish it with death in order to maintain it.

Sword Logic can be a little tricky, but Quria: Blade Transform sums it up pretty succinctly; "Only when I have destroyed everything will I be powerful." If anyone can be destroyed, they deserved to be because they had weakness and their killer was in the right because they destroyed that weakness. The Hive's greatest expression of love is to kill each other because it destroys their weakness, hence their royal family indulging in regicide like it was a quick match of Super Smash.

>>49540317
Oooooh, so the Hive are Randroids. Gotcha.

>>49540317
So. They get more powerful by dying? And they can respawn, but only if their Throne World has death all over it? Which, I assume means, they have to have killed a LOT? And probably BEEN killed a lot?

>>49540183
>>49540226
>>49540317
And remember, the Vault of Glass is a Vex calculated simulation of a Throne World, which is why they write the rules of existence there.

>>49540364
>So. They get more powerful by dying?
That's the opposite of sword logic. The strong get more powerful by culling the weak... the weak deserve to die because they hold others back.

Sword logic is essentially "dog eat dog"... it's a bigger moral philosophy that sums to might making right, and violence being justified by the means (if I kill you, then you were destined to die so I did nothing wrong).

>>49540364
Read through all the Books of Sorrow. It explains all of this. There are lots of things we have yet to understand, and we are not entirely sure if Final Death works for those in their Throne World the same way we think of Guardian Final Death. In part with how the passing of ownership functions within Sword Logic.

>>49540345

You wouldn't be wrong. It's Randian philosophy taken beyond mere economics and taken to its logical extreme of murder, except it actually gets you magical powers, unlike real Randian philosophy, which ruins your business and gets you laughed at (see: what happened to Sears).

>>49540364

Yeah. They've killed a whole lot. In the Grimoire Card series "The Book of Sorrow," which details the Hive's history, they actually got to the point where they couldn't physically kill enough to satisfy the hunger of their worms.

Oryx, or Auryx at that point, instituted a tithe system at that point. Each Acolyte takes as much death (or whatever it is) as they need, plus a little more to grow, and tithes the rest up the chain to the Knights. The Knights take what they need and a little more to grow, and tithe that to the Wizards, who take what they need and a little more to grow, and tithe that to their commanders. The commanders (most named characters and ultras) take all that they need and all that they want, and tithe the rest directly to Oryx and his sisters (depending on their army). But if they take too much, the other commanders, or even their patrons like Oryx himself, will step in and kill them for their tithes in order to get more powerful, so it's encouraged to tithe them up the chain.

That way, they don't need to personally kill millions of beings in order to maintain their Throne Worlds.

>>49540446

Also consider how Oryx mentions his sword. If someone kills Oryx with Oryx's own sword, he mantles that person and gains his strength, because that person would have had to used Oryx's own Sword Logic to defeat him, and Oryx might as well be a tangible being of Sword Logic at this point.

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>>49540421
Hold the fucking phone.

Are you telling me the Vex can't actually erase people from existence or do any of their crazy time shit, unless it's in the Vault of Glass?

>>49540498
Oh, they do all kinds of crazy time shit outside of it. It's just that they have complete control within the Vault. That is why you don't encounter Gorgons or Oracles outside of the Vault. Because they haven't figured out how to sew those features into he fabric of the regular universe. Yet.

Their goal is to become a law of nature. Controlling those laws in pocket dimensions is in a sense step one.

>>49540477
It's interesting most because with he power vacuum we know that The Guardian isn't technically the bearer of the blade which killed Oryx. That is a thread I am interested in seeing play out. Oh Mara Sov, playing the long game.

>>49540498

It's why their specialized Banshees have working Ontological weapons that do actually wipe people from existence, but only work in the Vault of Glass.

As >>49540560 says, they're not yet woven into the universe's fabric, they haven't yet solved for their survival in every single possible universal end state, so while they do have a whole lot of power and control over crazy universal forces, they are also still severely limited in their power.

Which is why the Guardians even have a chance at this point. And consider that, for all the Vex's power and ability to control the universe, they still can't solve for the Darkness, which is why they turned to worshipping the fragment they held in the Black Garden.

>>49540560

>It's interesting most because with he power vacuum we know that The Guardian isn't technically the bearer of the blade which killed Oryx.

It's Arthurian myth played out. The one who defeats the king usually takes their place and mantles the position (after playing through their game on their terms), but the Guardian isn't the inheritor nor do they take up that mantle.

What the fuck happens when the cycle is broken at that point? The King is dead... And there is no King. What happens when something intrinsically writes itself into the universe, and then ceases to be without a successor?

>>49540615
I think the real curiosity is whether or not we just haven't met the successor. The Guardian dealt the blow, followed Oryx's rules of challenge and trials to face him. But whose blade did we fell him with? Is the Traveller now the Taken King? Mara Sov? Could it be no one? One of Oryx's sisters?

>>49540653
Isn't Mara Sov dead?

>>49540653

Could be there is no King. Could be his sisters will start showing up to take his place, or perhaps rebirthing him as he rebirthed them by sort of evoking his existence through his own practice of Sword Logic. That happened before, when they had Auryx kill them so he could become Oryx and kill the Worm they worshipped. So could it happen in reverse?

Could be the Light won out (through the Guardians as its champions), defeating Sword Logic by both playing out and rejecting its rules, meaning the Hive in and of itself has just been exposed in fundamental universal terms as both flawed and incorrect.

You could view the battle against Oryx as a debate. We played by the guidelines set out by Oryx, but we didn't follow through to his conclusion, nor did we adopt his own logic which would prove him right. We found a new conclusion. So where do we go from here?

>>49540825
>So where do we go from here?
The Hive keep fighting to try and prove the Light and its Guardians wrong, I suppose.
Like a counter-counter-argument.

>>49540825
>Could be the Light won out (through the Guardians as its champions), defeating Sword Logic by both playing out and rejecting its rules, meaning the Hive in and of itself has just been exposed in fundamental universal terms as both flawed and incorrect.

This is the way I see it. We took the light and used it as our sword, and showed the Sword Logic we don't have to play by it's rules. I get the feeling that part of the Sword Logic kind of imploded. Given the way Toland reacts to us killing Oryx and then not taking his place. He seems to be completely dumbfounded, like he doesn't even understand how it was possible.

>>49540881

Toland kind of bought into Sword Logic. His view was that we had to take up the mantle in order to survive as a species, and was counting on the Guardians to do just that to ensure their survival.

Instead the Guardians somehow confounded Sword Logic, which to him is baffling and might well mean we just chose the path of humanity's extinction. We're venturing into unknown territory after confronting a universal equation and subverting its foregone conclusion.

>>49540966
That's what I mean. Sword Logic is the proposal of the Dark. Instead, we chose to use the Light to come to our own conclusion.

Toland drank the koolaid, because he thought it was the only thing to drink. We proved that it isn't and that left him scrambling to find answers for it.

Ultimately, I feel like our killing Oryx and breaking the Sword Logic is our first real defeat against the Darkness proper. Not just in a physical strategic sense, but a metaphysical/philosophical sense.

>>49540997
Killing Oryx was definitely a solid 'Fuck You'
Now we just have to wait for the Darkness' rebuttal

>>49540997

Well, each faction represents competing ideologies, and their physical conflicts are just debates about methods and ideologies that are grander than them.

I don't much seem to understand the Cabal's position, nor the Fallen's at this point, but it seems the Guardians are asserting unity, and the "other way" Toland asserts where the Three Queens work together, and the Hive are the most stark representation of the Queen of Armies and the philosophy of strength in Sword Logic. The Vex themselves also seem to be searching for answers, and do so by imitation. The Fallen seem to be just doing anything it takes for survival at this point, by any means necessary.

>>49540810
Is she?

>>49541136
Way I see it, the Cabal and the Fallen are more "human" in that they aren't as defined by a overlying metaphysical philosophy. That makes them less dangerous in a mystical sense, but more dangerous in that they can think outside the box. They can do things that we wouldn't expect or that we would be can't defend against. Rather have having a strict set of rules we can abuse, they are basically able to do anything we could. So it comes down to a pure test of skill and strength.

I am of the mind that the Fallen might become our allies in the next game. Given Variks and some of the implications left throughout House of Wolves/Rise of Iron. I also think that Bungie is gonna introduce more enemy factions, so I'm really interested to see where that goes.

>>49541146
Well, eye-patch sends us to find any sign of her and the only thing we can bring back is a broach, so maybe?
Dead isn't always dead in Destiny, so only time will tell.

>>49541136
The Cabal are definitely a question mark, same with the Fallen's looming Kell of Kings

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>>49541192
I think we can all guess who the Kell of Kells is going to be.

>>49541206
The Kell of Kings is different from the Kell of Kells prophecy
They're the actual Kell of the House of Kings and so far have been content to stay out of thing, save for some meddling during the House of Wolves clusterfuck, if I remember correctly.

>>49541251
True.

I guess they didn't want us to kill every ranking Fallen in the system. Like we did with the Cabal.

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>http://destiny-grimoire.info
Just wanted to post a link to the actual Grimoire for anyone who wanted it. It's pretty well written and interesting.

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>>49541273
Is that a canon image of Zavala's helmet? If so, neat.

Also, does anyone else have names backstories for their Guardians? Because I would definitely carry some of mine over into a table top game.

>>49541206
I doubt it. Pretty sure the grimoire states Variks is using the crows to look for the K of K.

>>49541266
I actually really hope we get more on the Cabal

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>>49541295
Not cannon no, but damn good fan art. Got one of Cayde too.

>>49541188

Fallen as allies would be amazing.

The Cabal might have an overarching philosophy, probably that of Imperial and centralized rule under Law, as mentioned in Toland's fable of Three Queens. Could the Vex be the ones who build the Tower, and climb it to see the stars?

In that dynamic, the Vex would be the Tower, the Cabal would be Law, and the Hive would be Armies. The Fallen would be the Light betrayed; the Guardians in the absence of light. It's been stated that the Fallen don't have Gods or Patrons, the Traveller abandoned them. As such, they adopt worship of the Darkness, or SIVA, or whatever they can steal. They're the absence of philosophy.

>>49541301
Oh we will. Their entire involvement in TTK was foreshadowing. Their entire reason for going to the Dreadnought was to learn how to kill Light. They even managed to send a message back to the Cabal homeworld. Maybe they actually did find out, and now the full Imperial Fleet is coming to make use of it.

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>>49541321
That actually makes a decent amount of sense. I think the Cabal are gonna be the big bads of the next game, or at least in the sense that their invasion is gonna be the main plot point.

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>>49541352
Fighting Cabal marines while leaping through space from ship to ship, trying to take them down while Guardians engage in dogfights with their smaller vessels, desperately trying to reach their commanders flagships and shut down whatever Big Fucking Gun they've cooked up would be fun as shit

>>49541301
>>49541352
>>49541393
Cabal are basically guaranteed to be the next BBEG. I'm especially hyped because of how similar to humanity they are (philosophically speaking) and how they're based slightly off of Warhammer 40k.

I'm genuinely happy I was able to spawn such a thorough lore discussion, but perhaps it'd be possible to focus on the task of injecting roleplay into a world designed for shooting first and asking questions never. Or if not focus, at least casually examine.

I guess maybe that's a tall order, and I don't mean to sound like a douche. I'm just asking is all.

>>49541206
Favorite character. Such a friendly, cool guy.

>>49541439
Can't wait till they just say "fuck it, fuck you, fuck everything" and throw Phobos at Earth

>>49541449
It'll basically be Guardians versus an army of Master Chiefs, which is an idea I wholeheartedly approve of.

>>49541476
And then we stop it and Shaxx turns it into a Crucible Arena.
Because, fuck it, why not.

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>>49541439
I think it'll be more of a "our ships will blot out the sun" type deal. Y'know how on mars you can look up and see little groups of cabal ships/satellites in geometric patterns? Like that, except so many you can't see the sky behind them.

>>49541473
Well, we'd have to include some other enemy types. Weird raider/survivalists outside the city walls who might not trust Guardians or the city, automated frames who you need to convince you're friendly. Hell, maybe even Fallen you can talk down.

There's also plenty of stuff that happens inside the city. Apparently the factions have skirmishes between each other, and there's probably a mundane criminal/shady element among the people that live the city.

It doesn't necessarily have to be talking to be roleplaying, there could just be more creative problem solving in the situations with enemies like the Vex or the Hive. Stuff that you actually have to think a little about, and that different characters might have different reactions to. So it becomes more about roleplaying inter-fireteam relations.

Think about it kind of like a zombie campaign in that respect.

>>49541393

They do rule as an Empire, and even keep the Psions under their thumb. They're Law in the extreme where the Hive are Strength in the extreme.

Then we have the Queen and her Awoken in the Reef. She's probably our Pragmatism when it comes down to it, playing the field and casually adopting the winning play. She's obsessed with observation and scrutiny, like she's trying to suss-out how each one works, and how she can adopt their philosophies for her own purposes. If the Fallen are without a philosophy, the Queen's forces of the Reef wear philosophies as it suits them.

>>49541449
Aren't the current Cabal just a speck compared to the whole deal?

>>49541473
Focus on Grimoire that touches non-aggressive factions within and without the City. Add any I miss:

Vanguard
Crucible
Cryptarchy
Awoken of the Reef
Cult of Osiris
Ikora Rey's Hidden
Dead Orbit
Future War Cult
New Monarchy
The Nine and their Agents
House of Judgement
The Iron Lord(s)
Frontier settlements

That's 13 entities that don't require violent interaction. There are other groups that could be worked into non-violent encounters, such as House of Exile, or possibly Cabal deserters. Beyond that we do know that there are other Guardians who are not associated with the City anymore, like Toland. And countless missing Guardians or Ghosts or lost Golden Age entities. AI that aren't Warminds or Brain-in-a-jar folks.

Beyond that you could also have Ahamkara and their bones be involved. Or isolated Hive Worms. Or if you wanted trapped Proto-Hive that defied Sword Logic and would not be killed, instead hidden until even their life could be conquered. You could also have "unTaken" if this is after Oryx, where the broken Sword Logic has freed shade-entities whose mines are no linger what they were.

Or perhaps a Vex Cult that has decided a different path to recoding the universe, or that has decided it is impossible and the infection has split them from the whole.

There are many options beyond the lore without changing things really. Just by adding little caveats to make the situation somewhat unique.

>>49541632
Yes, they're a minor scouting force as far as we can tell. They don't seem to have expected there to be much resistance in the system. I believe it's actually mentioned that we killed every single ranking officer in the system.

>>49541632

They're an expeditionary force. The Scouts. The Cabal proper are a much larger entity, considering they can keep their Martian outposts so well equipped.

>>49541653
The Martian outpost has never be resupplied iirc. Everything they have they brought with them when they first got into the system.

>>49541675

Huh, nevermind.

>>49541632
Yeah, pretty much.
Their setup on Mars is essentially just a foothold for the Fleet
And if their antics on Oryx's dreadnaught are any indication, the Cabal are very, very good at holding their beachheads.

>>49541645
Lady Efrideet apparently comes from a pacifistic group of Guardians somewhere in the inner system. So there's also that.

>>49541680
Honestly the Cabal seem good at just about everything they do. Like the Fallen they're boxing above their weight in most situations, and still manages victories here and there.

>>49541473

I'd actually hack Mophidius's Mutant Chronicles or Infinity RPG for mechanics. It solves mechanics bloat you'd get by solving complex and chaotic scenarios narratively, meaning diving from cover, teleporting around, and intense firefight action is solved more smoothly, keeping things moving at a fast pace instead of bogging down at the fun stuff.

As an RPG, it would allow for so much more narrative interaction, especially with the environment. Imagine getting your Ghosts together to salvage a scrapped Tank in the Cosmodrome for an assault on a Fallen outpost, setting up and executing traps on Cabal patrols... As a Hunter, you could take up the tattered cloak of a fallen Guardian, a promise, a narrative premise only hinted at in the flavor description of a basic trash-level Hunter cloak.

Basically, putting Destiny into TTRPG means you open up narrative pathways Bungie promised initially, but never delivered on, or ways of interacting with the world of Destiny beyond that of violence. It'd take a skilled narrator to keep with the interesting and flavorful themes of the setting, but by dialing back on the story and exploring the more personal stories and endeavors of less important Guardians, you open up whole new avenues that the game doesn't have time for.

How close was Aksis to godhood?

>>49534379
Destiny's LORE is just fine.

Problem is it has little to do with the game

>>49542034
close enough to get fucked in the ass by my baller-ass titan

>>49542059

Well, we've debated a whole lot, but this is fundamentally the point.

Seems Destiny is catching on, because in Taken King, the player participates as a metaphorical component of a philosophical debate between Oryx's Sword Logic and the philosophy of the Light. In Rise of Iron, they've outright stated that the players viscerally take on and grow into the roles of Iron Lords while combating SIVA, participating in the evolution and continuation of story rather than witnessing from afar or participating in at a tangent.

>>49542034
He achieved it. At least, the way he thought about it.

Titans = Hunters > dogshit > Warlocks

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>>49542589
I disagree. I think Titans = Hunter = Warlocks.

All the classes are good, and offer interesting stuff and cool gear.

>>49542611
Yeah, I'm just bitching because Warlocks get favorable treatment. They consistently get more exotics per expansion, get their new exotics sold from Xur first, get some of the best exotics, are able to tank more damage and out-melee Titans- It's just all a little silly.

>>49537684
Who do you speak of? Certainly not Ikora Rey, who is ALSO known for never dying and yet having a ghost.

>>49542589
>resurrecting flame shield tanks
>infinite seeker grenade engines
>Emperor Palpatine
I smell a salty titan

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>>49542830
I never heard that, and frankly don't believe you.

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>>49534379
When did this?

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>>49543043
Become this?

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>>49543043
I'm gonna stop you right there with the OG Pulse Rifle.

>>49543054
>>49543058
Oh. That went a different direction than I expected.

>>49543043
>>49543054
Sometime after the first picture but before the second picture.

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>>49543043
Omolon shits on tau.

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>>49534379
And when did this?

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>>49543091
Become this?

>>49543105
>>49543091
Both cause mass genocide on a scale hitherto unseen before in their respective series. They are in fact, cousins that don't talk about each other's respective side of the family.

>>49542916
I'll try to dig it up for you, but she's the oldest Guardian/Warlock known and nobody knows if she ever died. She mentions remembering the day she found a ghost, not her ghost finding her.

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Factions are worth more time fleshing out, that rewriting what little canon there is.

I mean New Monarchy stepped in and saved the speaker from a full scale uprising. What about DO and FWC?

>>49543404
Learning about that NM uprising shit was the coolest thing in ROI.

As someone who hasn't given a fuck about Destiny for a couple years after being incredibly disappointed by it(even by the lore when I went to read that), is there actually some depth to the story at this point? Anything that's at least trying to throw around philosophy intrigues me, but one of the things that turned me off in the first place was the genericness of the whole "Light vs Dark" thing.

>>49543586
Well you'll be happy to know grimoire has really fleshed it out into something interesting. The only problem is the game at this point is hamstrung both by it's original design two years ago, and by most of the dev team working on Destiny 2.

So the story in the newest expansion for expansion got shipped off to the fucknut responsible for Halo 4's clusterfuck of a story. And it shows.

But the actual lore backing it is super engaging. You can read this whole thread for people talking about tons of different, rad-as-fuck stuff in that lore.

>>49543586
>Worm Gods
>Mysterious Space Illuminati
>Praedyth's nonexistence
>Kabr's sacrifice
>Pahanin's obsession
>Dredgen's betrayal
>Jaren's pupil
>Shin's duel
>Fucking Sword Logic
>Throne Worlds
>The true strength of the Cabal
>House of Judgement
>All that Iron Lords shit
>All that Eris' Fireteam shit
>Motherfucking Osiris
>Rezyl Azzir
>Ancient Space Dragons
>Killing a fucker so good you shift dimensions to kill him, like, super even a lot more

it's pretty good

>>49542665
But they're generally less useful in hard content beyond selfrezzing.

>>49543781
>>49543678
Yeah, reading through it now and I gotta say I'm pretty damn impressed, especially with it as a setting. Reading the cards about the Darkness actually makes it really fucking cool, a far cry from "le evil thing" that you got from the game.

Will definitely go through the whole thing, thanks.

>>49543860
no prob, bob.

>>49543404
Dead Orbit seems widely disliked, but they do a huge amount of intelligence gathering and recon that most groups are too busy to bother with so they're tolerated in the Tower and occasionally favors are done for them. It's kinda interesting really.

Future War Cult has roots in the original groups that built the exos. Apparently they were a group of scientists who designed/found a device that lets you see multiple possible futures at once. It turned out to be too much for a regular human mind though, and so they had to make exos. There are contradicting things about Exos though. Because they were apparently built by Clovis-Bray, and used as soldiers by Warminds. Notably about the future seeing device, one person who used it comments on the exo-strangers presence in every time stream.

It would seem she's a kind of four dimensional being, like the vex, and has seen the Light fail against the darkness many times. Apparently the Black Garden victory is either rare or unprecedented, hence her giving you the rifle. In the original story she's associated with Osiris and maybe Rasputin.

>>49543860
>There is a knife for you. It is shaped like

This is fucking great. Who wrote all this? I need to read more of their stuff if they have any.

>>49544169
I don't think they were ever clear on what the reasons were for the Exos creation. I remember there being a lot of speculation in-universe, and even the Exo grimoire itself suggesting the Exo were created because someone might've wanted to live forever.

But I could be wrong.

>>49543307
Ikora has lost track of how many times she's died. And she's definitely not the oldest Warlock either. She was a young Warlock during the times of Holborn's host in the years following the Twighlight Gap.

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>>49544254
You're right. The Exos are war machines built with human consciousness and emotion. One Grimoire card details a discussion between an Exo and a human, in which the Exo asks why he has emotion and thought like a human as they aren't good battlefield traits. He speculates, as you already mentioned, that someone was looking for immortality.

>>49544316
I now can't find the proper grimoire card, but I remember one or two relating to the future seeing device referencing that Exos are much better candidates for using it. I don't know where I got the ide they were built specifically for it, but I'm fairly sure one overtly implies it.

Also, the new Timur grimoire indicates that they most certainly have origins relating to Clovis.

>>49541903
Okay, wait, hold on. I'm not well-versed enough to instantly get that. Mutant Chronicles or Infinity RPG? What's better about them over something else? They make the chaotic action move at a more thrilling pace? And this is simpler than the SW RPG system? Because I thought that was fairly simple already- there's barely any numbers. I'm not even disagreeing, I genuinely want to know why those are better.

What about it leads to more narrative interaction, particularly with the environment? And why picking up a cloak in these systems be different than doing so in another system?

>putting Destiny into TTRPG
I assume that just means the two games you mentioned?

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This all sounds like gibberish.

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>>49544519
It's mostly good gibberish though.

>>49544239

Read up on the Cabal Captain who got Taken. His Knife is shaped like [Loneliness].

It seems like every Knife is shaped like what every being desires most. Vandals just want a place of their own, Acolytes want help, and the Vex just want to adapt to survive. The Darkness, or what of the Darkness Oryx calls into them, seems to grant them everything they wish for, only if they give up their struggles and abandon whatever it was they were.

And they're not tortured souls, they're apparently in ecstasy, so much so that one Guardian got a whiff of it off a dying Taken Thrall's scream and became obsessed.

>>49544409

Mutant Chronicles is a pretty smooth system. I'm just sort of suggesting that as a starting point. Scifi, emphasis on guns, makes shooting phases slicker by keeping it narrative and fast-paced by focusing on intended results, advantages, and setbacks and use of moves and abilities rather than getting bogged down in the mechanics of an actual firefight.

After that, the narrative stuff is just me ranting about how putting it into any kind of tabletop RPG gives you the kind of interaction you don't get in the vidya. I didn't mean to imply those two systems were the only ones where this could be done exclusively.

Besides my shilling Mophidius, you could run it in GURPS, an AW hack, Traveller (ironically), or any other scifi system, but I mean to express a preference for systems that can move along the action smoothly in a firefight to make it feel much like fighting in the game.

>>49544951
Duuuude. That's so FUCKING cool.

God damn. Why can't this be the type of awesome writing and worldbuilding they actually put in the game?

>>49544987
Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I actually briefly looked into GURPS, and honestly all the point stuff (giving players points to spend freely, that kind of thing, designing enemies around it, et cetera) scared the heck outta me.

Just being straight up honest, I'm not an amazing GM or anything- I'm really trying, but when I look at the freeform nature of GURPS, my brain just overloads because I can't imagine having to balance that mechanically. It's a lot easier to comprehend them having a set pool of skills and knowing, "okay, this fight should be a challenge, but winnable", and I know mathematically it just makes sense, because a player wasn't allowed to spend 100 points in fucking suntanning or whatever.

Maybe it's easier than I think, but I dunno. I'm just saying the vibe I got from a cursory examination. I'll look into Morphidius, AW Hack, and Traveller, and if you think I'm just being a bitch about GURPS I can give that another shot.

>>49541449
Wow I'm surprised there's another Destiny related thread here in /tg/. Which I think is good since you /tg/ people love breaking dwon the lore of not-tabletop games and make fund discussions out of them.

>>49541301
>>49541352
>>49541393
There have been a few previous Destiny threads before that was mostly comparing WH40K things and elements with Destiny's, mostly the Cabal being the Imperium of Man and the Space Marines but as big 800 pound alien-humanoid pachyderm people.

And yeah correct me if I'm wrong in this peeps who know their Warhammer and Destiny, but here I go:

>Fallen= Weird bizzaro Eldar, though the Awoken would be Eldar; but as altered humans with some space magic powers and as isolationists till House of Wolves

>The Hive= Chaos Tyranids, or Tyranids as smarter people who're religious zealots.

>The Vex= Necrons, but at the same time with slight differences and have more powers that can bend and or control time and space to a certain extent. And they have a more eerie Nature-like theme going on.

>And lastly, The Cabal= The Imperium of Man and the Space Marines as aliens, hell they pretty much use the same weapons too.


...

And since I've already crossed that territory:

what if Traveler and the things of Destiny; the Light, Darkness and factions were in 40K for all you more experienced Warhammer people?

>>49541449
>>49541301
>>49541352
>>49541393

I'm betting any plot or expansion focused around the Cabal is basically going to be Destiny's version of the Horus Heresy:

>plot involves children, or most loyal commanders of the Cabal's Emperor
>One of Cabal Emperor's servants/kids is Destiny's Horus
>Destiny's version Horus and the Traitor Primarchs turns out to worship, or revere or admire the concept of the Light and the Traveler so they break off from the main empire
>Cabal Emperor and Destiny's version of the Loyalist Primarchs get info about it and wage war on the traitors
>Destiny's versions of Horus and Traitor Primarchs and all their forces meet up with the Guardians and the rest of the Earth Vanguard to form an alliance to stop the bigger and badder Cabal forces in wrecking the Sol System

So yeah, that's how I'd see a plot focused on the Cabal might turn out: Destiny's version of the Horus Heresy which would also give further meaning as to why the Cabal are called the Cabal; meaning not everyone's a hundred percent loyal to one another.

>>49547799
Gonna screencap this for accuracy.

>>49546939

Do what works for you, no need to force yourself to work with something that's harder for your style of GMing.

>>49543404
>I mean New Monarchy stepped in and saved the speaker from a full scale uprising

When did that get added to the lore?

>>49543404

Dead Orbit believes that the only way for humanity to survive is to abandon Earth and cut themselves free from the Traveller. Essentially, they'd rather man lived like the Fallen as a means of survival. They have a big hand in ship-building and use their resources to buy up as many of those as they can, but while they're still heavily rooted to The City they perform recon, sell ships, and generally practice and hone the skills they'd need in space while on Earth. They also make use of Thanatonauts, which are scouts who actually enter death and get revived through some unknown process which allows them to bring back information from... Everywhere? They return with visions of the future, secrets of the past, and even the hidden things in the present. They are the most distrustful of the Speaker, and generally distrusted by other factions.

Future War Cult believes that war, or The War, is all there ever is, and dedicated themselves to fighting wholeheartedly. They believe the only way to fight the Darkness is to fight it and beat it head-on, and could be seen as having a much, much less extreme version of the Hive's principle when it comes to fighting their enemies.

New Monarchy runs itself like a policing force, and generally wishes to enforce general rule of law over The City, appointing itself as overseers and keeping things from tearing The City apart.

Seems the dynamic is that FWC is the Army, NM is the Law, and DO is the Tower, along with the other factions, outliers, and the Speaker.

>>49548712
You had me up until you talked about Thanatonauts, and then I have no idea what the shit that means. But at least Dead Orbit sounds cool. I guess if they want to abandon earth, they would be the faction that best supports space flight.

>>49549251

>thanatos
Greek root for Death

>naut
Greek root for Voyager

They explore the "other side" in order to bring back information. Dead Orbit is not just doing recon of physical spaces, but metaphysical spaces.

Things get a little fucky and a whole lot of factions dabble in science so advanced it's basically just magic. I'm sure the practice of thanatonauts involves sublimating themselves into some form of universal unconscious or a place where all points converge while preserving their identity so they can return and convey whatever information they could get from where past, present, future, and all alternative dimensions meet, but I can't say they explain how it works in a bullshit science-y way. It would explain the grimoires that seem to provide information about events that haven't happened yet, or information from far in the past.

Though I suspect Dead Orbit aren't the kind to abandon The City and all other factions. One grimoire shows what seems to be a fleet of tattered ships carrying pieces of Earth rock on their hulls as tokens, many of the Dead Orbit but many more of other factions, many familiar and many that aren't recognizable and possibly from factions that haven't formed yet. If humanity is to have its best shot at surviving, you need to save as much of it as possible. They don't seem like separatists so much as people that simply have another option in reserve if The City fails.

We need to bundle all the fixes and ship them to Bungie for consideration

>>49549482
Pretty much. That's the reason they haven't left, they're still trying to convince more people to come with them. Kind of ironic if your Guardian is affiliated with them in game though. All your victories would only serve to convince people that there's more hope in staying.

Also, just as a note, the future with all the ships leaving is just one possible one. Not necessarily the real and final one.

>>49549523

>Also, just as a note, the future with all the ships leaving is just one possible one. Not necessarily the real and final one.

Precisely. There's numerous conflicting grimoires that show humanity's demise a dozen different ways, and there's a lot out there that suggests things about other factions as well. Still, in one of those possible eventualities, it may be that Dead Orbit is right, which alone gives them a slice of merit.

Also the fact that they're not dedicated to just up and leaving the City, and they use what peace the City brings them to stockpile and build up their resources while also providing for the City proper. It makes sense because they can use the stability the City provides to make themselves better prepared, and continue to push back the enemy in order to buy more time to prepare. Really, they aren't at odds with the City, they just have a different theory about its end-state.

>>49549757
Yeah, I was just clarifying for anyone who might not realize.

Though, that future is pretty grim really. What with dozens of ships lost at every blind jump between empty barren worlds. It banks on faith and might end up being suicide. It's kind of implied the city has been lost there, not just abandoned.

>>49549522
But anon there have been no fixes. All this discussion is about the actual, amazing lore.

>>49549522
No but seriously.

It's nice to see Destiny's lore be discussed on my homeboard, but I think Bungie needs to see what we think of their bullshit

>>49549920
Were there not fixes in the first few posts?

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>>49549522

If today's Destiny 2 leak is to be believed, they already understand that their lore, while totally rad, is way too high concept to be palatable for any reasonable game story.
>The plan is for Destiny 2's planet areas to feel more populated with towns, outposts, and quests that are more interesting than the patrol missions you can get in Destiny.

So hopefully that means we actually get a better view of what this world is like when we aren't fighting multi-dimensional death gods. And maybe we can have actually personal stories.

But as it stands, yeah, I sorta wish there was more stuff to actually roleplay with, but I guess we just ended up jerking off about the lore instead of fixing anything for the most part.

>>49550077
I mean, we kinda went over the fact that ultimately most of the problems people have are relatively easy to solve or already solved in the lore of the game. It kinda requires a personal touch though. What your GM wants to do, what your party of Guardians want to do, and what kind of stories they want to tell.

Personal shit, missions in the vein of your standard fantasy RPG, aren't really that hard to do. Small settlement outside the city exists for x-reason (mining, intelligence gathering, scavenger outpost, Vanguard camp, just people who don't want to move), gets attacked by x-enemy (fallen pirates, Hive seeding, Cabal scouts, maybe even human bandits), you gotta take them out and their leader.

The characters that exist in the game are a template for the kind of people you could meet. This is especially true now with RoI and the introduction of the new Vanguard scout guy or the new cryptarchy lady.
Also, I'll be really mad if they put less effort into the grimoire. I'm fine if they make things more understandable/palatable in game, but if they go from Morrowind lore to Skyrim lore in the grimoire I'm going to be five kinds of buttblasted.

>>49549940
That was OPs opinions based on a lack of understanding of the lore. Most of hos points jave have been corrected or proven actually existing already.

>>49550077

>but I guess we just ended up jerking off about the lore instead of fixing anything for the most part

Well, we've established that we a good understand of the lore and feel of the setting. Now we have to convey that through actual mechanics. Although technically that's designing backwards, you should start with mechanics first and then figure out what kind of story you want to tell with them.

But we're stuck with the hard way, so what systems can we hack that have what we need? Damage types, an emphasis on powers and abilities, guns, and enough depth to interaction to have characters behave in a more real way?

>>49550149

We're kind of at Morrowind-level now (though with different stylings, and less surrealism too, but we have time-travel), and I'd be fine if they kept the grimoires somewhat higher up while letting the game itself be more accessible. That way we keep a deeper depth we can explore while filling the world with more personal stories.

>>49550077
Well I hope they don't water it down too much. That's TES biggest failing right now, shitty combat be damned

>>49548712
>They also make use of Thanatonauts, which are scouts who actually enter death and get revived through some unknown process which allows them to bring back information from... Everywhere? They return with visions of the future, secrets of the past, and even the hidden things in the present.
So, flatliners? I love that silly, silly movie.

>>49547706
Warhammer would stomp out Destiny's races but the only ones that would seem to survive in some way are the Hive, Vex, and highly skilled Guardians.

>>49550445
Ultimately this debate is kinda retarded, because Destiny power levels are vaguer than a tumblrinas gender identification and 40ks power levels vary from noguns retarded low to bullshit Mary-Sue.

For example, Oryx supposedly personally destroyed millions of worlds, and has fought races that are able to make laser beams out of black holes. Then you shoot him with assault rifles till he falls off his ship.

In 40k, Space Marines can either survive falling out of orbit and fighting for weeks at a time non-stop, or they get gunned down by a bunch of cultists with autoguns with both being equally canon.

>>49550480
>Then you shoot him with assault rifles till he falls off his ship.
I'm only vaguely familiar with Destiny lore, but isn't every weapon really just a means of channeling and directing one's own Light to harm the enemy?

>>49550551
Dont forget the bombs we detonate on him are super compressed caches of light siphoned off of countless beings that hid ogres were digesting and converting. Might as well be Light nukes.

>>49550480

Well, the Guardians also have "The Light" on their side, as >>49550551 points out. Plus Oryx does Royally (literally) fuck up whole fleets with the Hive's own weaponry. However, the Guardians don't confront him as a fleet, they confront him as a fireteam, and by fighting him Mano-a-Mano they win out.

Which kind of makes sense. He's certainly got the pull and the vision and the skill to stay King of the Hive, and is immensely powerful himself, but generally speaking a powerful ruler can just be an ordinary guy. Most Emperors die from being stabbed or poisoned or shot as easily as some random peasant on the street, they just get stories written about it.

Plus, Oryx can come back from the dead as well, and has been defeated many times while fighting on these alien's terms. However, the Guardians fight him on his own terms in a manner where he can, in fact, truly be defeated: the refutation of Sword Logic through the means of Martial Debate (not sure if I heard that before, but I'm coining it now).

>>49550551

They seem like very physical machines with very concrete effects. But somehow Light is woven into them in some inscrutable way, even many of the most basic weapons. Light infuses a good portion of the tech the Guardians make use of, though I can't speak for all the technology humans use or even all of it in the Tower.

Perhaps it's because of how it is crafted or used, or simply a side-effect of being used by the Guardians. If we think of it like a debate, then the weapons are the mouthpieces, the means by which the words, the strength and violence, are conveyed. They speak with Light because they are used in the service of Light. Consider Thorn, a weapon once full of Light through its use by a hero, but now warped and twisted by its owner's fall to Darkness. Can such a weapon be redeemed by being taken up by the Light once more, or is the Darkness's argument too strong or tempting, and wielding it leads to corruption?

>>49550816
I know there's a piece of Titan gear that specifically says all armor is powered by light. Something about how your gear shouldn't be treated as separate, because in reality it only works as an extension of the wielder.

>>49550836

I suppose that solves that point. Still, I'd like more information as to how it functions, or how it can interface with other technology.

You can wield weapons that are clearly corrupted by the Darkness, and ones that are clearly taken from other species. Do they also work with Light, or do they become extensions of the Light when wielded by a Guardian? Do they need modification in order to be made available to a Guardian first?

I suppose the symbolism of wearing the armor or using the weapons of your enemies shows off that you're adopting parts of their own argument in support of your own conclusion. A notable exception, mentioned before, being Oryx's sword: Sword Logic made tangible.

>>49550911
Found another thing. The Bolt-Caster grimoire talks about Shaxx having to figure out how to make the swords conduct light. He tries to figure out how to shape it/make the right materials to do it.

So apparently it has something to do with how the stuff is made. So I would assume things like the Lord of Wolves or the Vex Mythoclast require a certain amount of modification before being Guardian usable.

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>>49550272
>But we're stuck with the hard way, so what systems can we hack that have what we need? Damage types, an emphasis on powers and abilities, guns, and enough depth to interaction to have characters behave in a more real way?

Beats me. But hopefully someone smarter can figure it out, because this sounds fun.

>>49551192
Which makes Kabr even more of a fucking boss to be able to use so much Vex tech.

>>49551976

Traveller seems to have good ship combat rules (se we can make Guardian Jumpships have a point), and GURPS is whatever you want it to be. I suppose in that case it's whatever system works best for you, so long as it works and can help sew mechanical bones to the narrative flesh of the setting.

Even adopting the Corruption mechanic of Symbaroum could put emphasis on using the Darkness's own abilities to your advantage at a cost, for a campaign that wants to dabble deeper into that. Otherwise, Light can be sewn in as a commodity and mechanic, and terrible fates can befall those whose light fades. It could work as a counter-corruption system, in which Light is something can is used in place of taking corruption, and when you run out of light corruption gets really bad.

Now, weapon-crafting would be a fun mechanic. You could work in taking tech from aliens and forging a neat gun out of it. It could even take the place of, or work with Engrams as a reward, so Engrams create a base to work off of, while collected parts, materials, and liberal use of Glimmer make the rest work under a skilled craftsman. Actually not to different from D&D, where instead of Gold or XP, you use programmable matter and Light for crafting.

>>49538894
>and they STILL don't even tell you what the fuck SIVA is

But they explain exactly what SIVA is in like the third mission. It's nanotech that functions like glimmer on steroids, turning one form of matter into any other. The problem is it's sapient and still only functioning on the original directives it was given (consume, improve, replicate).

>>49551192
The Mythoclast is not shaped for Vex hands. Nechrocasm and the Fallen Exotics are not identical to their associated weapons.

>>49552120
Engrams are smart-matter encryptions. They function as catch-all loot. So you aren't limited to making them function as only weapon or armor drops.

So I'm just now walking into this thread.

Could someone redpill me on Destiny Lore?

>>49553196
Try reading the thread

>>49553255
That's a tall order hoss.

Would anyone be interested in /dlg/ (destiny lore general) theres a lot to talk about

>>49553422
I'd be down, there is just so much to talk about, a shit ton of it is speculationot though I think.

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Also somthing that I really want to talk about is the nine, like why the fuck are we they never mentioned by anyone ever besides when they are rambling to themselves. But yet they are super gods from all we know. In one of the grimoir cards it decribes the nine as nine different things. Real fucking spicifc, but I just want to know why doesn't any actually have any definitive proof of who they are. And they must be some kind of ally if the vanguard allows xur onto the tower like nothing, or over there with reef, no one is stopping him there.

>tldr: I just want them to be relevant dammit. Atleast give me more to read about.

>>49553711
They are one of the queens main benefactors. Notably, it seems they ordered her to give them Skolas and then intentionally released him.

>>49548712
Thanatonauts are warlocks, and a FWC mainstay

>>49553636
>>49553422
Me three.

Wanna work on creating an OP post and picture so we can get this ball a rolling?

>>49553711
>The Nine are survivors of the cis-Jovian colonies who made a compact with an alien force to ensure their own survival.

>The Nine are deep-orbit warminds who weathered the Collapse in hardened stealth platforms.

>The Nine are ancient leviathan intelligences from the seas of Europa or the hydrocarbon pits of Titan.

>The Nine arrived in a mysterious transmission from the direction of the Corona-Borealis supercluster.

>The Nine are the firstborn Awoken and their minds now race down the field lines of the Jupiter-Io flux tube.

>The Nine are Ghosts who pierced the Deep Black without a ship and meditated on the hissing silence of the heliopause.

>The Nine are the aspects of the Darkness, broken by the Traveler's rebuke, working to destroy us from within.

>The Nine is a viral language of pure meaning.

>The Nine are the shadows left by the annihilation of a transcendent shape, burned into the weft of what is.

Maybe this is just me, but I feel like when they give a bunch of options like this, they only possible answer is none of them. Is that just me?

>>49553870
Not all of them. There is a Thantonaut gear set for Titans.

>>49554170
Or perhaps they are all of them.

>>49554190
Are you sure? I don't think that's true. Do you mean The Taikonaut helmet?

>>49553711
>>49554170
>>49554203
>Osiris had met with The Nine on Europa. According to Brother Vance, "He says The Nine are vulnerable every moment they touch our world."
So what the FUCK does that mean? Creatures of darkness? Xur also feels pain when you bring light close to him. Or maybe of pure light? I mean, The Traveler itself is just light stuck in a big ball. Maybe it would also feel pain if it didn't have that protective shell.

>>49554190
And a thanatonaut's lullaby for warlocks.

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>>49554203
How could that be possible? Are you implying a split timeline situation, or are you saying that each possibility applies to one of the nine?

>>49554225
Could have sworn there was a Titan set that talked about it in flavor. Would have to look when not at work.

>>49554257
non-euclidean entities was the way I felt they were treated. They don't exist within the limits of our dimensional space. So each one could be one of the descriptions, none of the descriptions, or all of them. All at once. Whether that applied through split/cyclic timelines I couldn't tell you. But that's the way they feel like they are treated to me.

>>49554032
>>49553422
Anybody?

Why not just flush it out?

I played destiny pretty frequently for a while, and it seemed like a solid basis. Sure, genuine world building in the human sense wouldn't happen, as you play a soldier-for-life that never leaves the front. But the fallen (not Eldar) and the vex (not Necrons and the hive (not Tyranids) and the taken (not chaos) and siva (not Mechanicum) and humanity (not huma- well, never mind that one), but the world itself is pretty neat.

Too bad it was an FPS, because it all comes down to shoot it and not tell a good story. But such is life, they did it with Halo but missed by a touch here, not with making a good story (I think destiny has some great, great stuff) but actually telling it to the player.

>>49554426
That's.. Kind of why we're talking about it in /tg/? To try and harvest as much of that potential as possible?

>>49554257
Nine fingers.

One hand.

>>49555100
That's a cool thing to say but I'm too dumb to get what you're trying to say.

>>49554257
>>49555100
Perhaps they are one overmind entity composed of nine unique individual minds, one of each origin.

>>49555623
They have nine independent faces and have a measure of flexibility when operating alone, but ultimately they're part of one whole.

>>49555626
Maybe they're all distinct parts of a single "brain" - one is the prefrontal cortex, one is the hippocampus, one is the hypothalamus, etc.

>>49554342
What would I need to do?

>>49543404
I think Dead Orbit is flawed from the foundation in that their goal of dropping everything and leaving isn't as attractive to players as serving the people or preparing for eternal war.

I'd like to think that they'd be better as aggressive expansionist-colonists, eager to reclaim our golden age technology and territory as the first priority. It would be perfect for players who are hungry for lore and exploration.

>>49558740

I think that might fall under the domain of New Monarchy. New Monarchy wants reclamation and reinforcement of every foothold gained, FWR is fighting the eternal war, and Dead Orbit has the exit strategy that basks in the safety of the City so that it might grow fat on every last second of preparation before the inevitable (so they believe) collapse.

>>49553422
Maybe we could make it kinda alternate-universe-ish? Like OP said, the lore is geared more for shooting and not role-playing

>>49537513
>Guardians are not necessarily good
Wasn't that confirmed Y1 with Red Death?

>>49558939

Seems fine to me, certainly there's more potential for roleplay than in some systems I've seen. The lore itself just serves to inform it.

And, of course, you'd most likely be Guardians. A Guardian's whole job is to fight. There are other ways of fighting, and skills outside of direct combat that are ultimately in service of it, but in the end the war is all there is for a Guardian. The system should be built around combat, but it shouldn't get in the way of any other interaction between NPCs or the environment.

>>49559185
Shouldn't Halo Mythic be a pretty good system for this?

I mean it is made for Halo, and Destiny is basically just future-fantasy Halo.

>>49559199

Maybe. Halo Mythic devolved into autism-spectrum levels of simulationist crunch, though I've heard it's gotten a good bit better. I'd prefer something that flows much easier and deals with both combat and narrative with relative fluidity.

>>49542830
His name was Shin Malphur, He used "The Last Word" to kill the evil Guardian Dredgen Yor (who had been seduced into evil by the Ahamkara Worm Gods) in an Old-West style shootout to avenge his father figure (who Yor killed and he got his second hand Ghost from).

>>49540653
Actually the Grimoire entry you get for killing Oryx the final time explains this, an entity who may be the darkness/an ahamkara/toland the shattered, starts on about how the player must become Oryx as per the sword logic, but then the player kills Oryx and does not replace him and the voice panics and pleads that you're ignoring the laws of existence and how you've somehow destroyed the sword logic using anti-sword logic that creates power through not taking power. It's really cool in that Michael Kirkbride kind of way.

>>49558939
I see no need

>>49559185
This anon has the right of it

>>49557119
Compile resources, that's it really

Let me run this by you

>cabal are coming with a giant fleet
>FWC sees this and says 'damn son, I would fight that fleet but I know it's crazy but the war game is just too good'
>they need ships, so they go talk to DO about getting their hands on some ships to sanctify and arm with big honking space guns
>DO says fuck you, we're not giving you a fleet, that's our stuff
>DO has in fact been salvaging the fuck out of Saturn and making bank
>crazy DO ship designer actually puts forth the idea of making an entire ship out of Hadium.
>DO pushes the design through since if the get it right it could be the single most important ship type since Hadium is weird af and the possibilities are endless
>FWC learns about it, and back room deals/blackmails DO into giving them some ships in return for not ratting them out to the consensus, and by letting them put big honking space guns on it
>DO makes great strides, but hit a problem in the form that the Hadium is still in that between light and dark stage
>secretly petition the speaker for that traveler shard that the hive were using to infuse their super ship with light and major it run on super space magic
>speaker refuses because it would be a 'waste'
>FWC being FWC go and piss off the cabal around Ceres doing war things
>this prompts a mobilization of cabal assets to make a break for the inner system and earth
>People in city realize that they are fucked
>DO once again reminds the speaker that they have a super ship that can break through Cabal lines and wreck face with a guardian strike force
>speaker reluctantly agrees, and the Hadium ship is now super charged with light
>those honking space guns? Now all fire golden gun lasers, nova bomb torpedoes, Ward of Dawn shields, Sol Hammer AA
>they use this ship to bust through Ceres, establish a beach head and the guardians on board proceed to break the cabal

Thoughts?

>>49560570
I admit. I boner'd a little.

But what about NM? I feel they would play a pivotal part in convincing the Speaker

If we want to present this in the terms of the game/ttrpg then the special abilities of the ship would be determined by the abilities of the six guardians within, and would be effected their loadouts liek their supers would.

>>Hunter
>Gunslinger
Solar railgun assemblies.
>Bladedancer
Ramming Arc bursts/teleportaion
>Nightstalker
Void Anchor mines

>>Titan
>Striker
An Arc shockwave around the ship
>Defender
A void bubble
>Sunbreaker
Solar AA batteries

>>Warlock
>Voidwalker
Void graviton canon
>Sunsinger
Overclocking system overide/Self repair sequence
>Stormcaller
Tesla canons

>>49538228
https://youtu.be/Y5NbEjkkPlI

Just gonna leave this here. If you follow this plot point, it might help.

>>49559199
>>49559338
Strike! maybe?

Probably a better fit once the loot book comes out.

>>49534379
>It's a bit tricky
Why? Destiny is literally fucking start wars.

>>49561805
Destiny has more in common the Elder Scrolls than Star Wars

Bump and reminder that Rise of the machine is 3/4 perfect mechanics and lorewise

>>49559418
Was it actually confirmed the worms turned him specifically or is that just widely accepted head cannon? I just thought he got drunk on the light of those he killed.

>>49561805
>Why? Destiny is literally fucking start wars.
Not even close. Destiny is a sci-fi version of the Book of Revelation, as written by atheists.

>>49559418
Were the Ahamkara related to the worm gods? I thought they were just bird dragon things.

Which is the best faction, and why is it New Monarchy?

>>49563601
Reread the Books Of Sorrow.

You'll know it when you see it.

>>49563676
Becuase it's FWC

>>49564419
>>I don't get fwc. Life sucks. Boohoo. Get over it.
T. Hideo

>>49559590
In universe explanations/narrations are unreliable. But that is probably the explanation most will accept. My comment was that unless it is made explicit to the players then it will be nebulous and up to interpretation

>>49563601
>>49564419
Implied association. No confirmed connection.

>>49565567
Don't be dense, oh anon mine.

>>49565766
Dont be a sheep, dumbass

>>49564419

Sorry- how are the Ahamkara related to the worm gods?

>>49565901
I'm not the one heavily denying clear cut evidence, idiot.

>>49565912
Have you read all the books of sorrow? This is important, mostly because I don't want to explain EVERYTHING

why would he even be called Toland, The Shattered if no one knows he's still alive? Was he even called that before he was lost in the Hive's netherdimension?

If feel like that could've worked better if you knew him previously as Toland, The Mindful, or Toland, The Obsessed, or something like that. Just something to establish him as this weirdo, obsessive, probably nigh-austistic, exiled warlock who was the only one brave (or stupid) enough to go researching the deepest black of the darkness, so that it matters when he dies, and matters even more when it turns out he's "alive".

>>49566025
I obviously didn't read it close enough if I somehow missed the Ahamkara being Worm Gods or whatever. So what's the deal?

>>49566025
I think it's more likely that the Ahamkara were another host race for the Worm Gods than them being the same.

>>49566682
>>49566025
This. I think you need to read the books again , jackass

>>49566753
It's pretty easy to strike off the worms as being visually similar with Ahamkara. Worm Gods are described as having "folded jaws" which doesn't match what we've seen from the Ahamkara gear.

Curled wings are also an insect thing, and Ahamkara are reptilian or avian in nature.

>>49567014
As not being visually similar, rather.

>>49567014
>>Inb4 "wyrm"

>>49566062
He got kicked out the tower before being lost in the Hive Realms.

>>49567884
I know. What does that have to do with being shattered?

>>49567014
Actually in the Books of Sorrow Oryx recalls how he fought a race that in their desperation to defeat the hive also worshipped the Worm Gods and describes his enemies as having "Turned to using Dragon Wishes" (The Ahamkara are described as "Wish Dragons" and "The Dragons that made Promises"). Also the Warlock Helmet Skull of Dire Ahamkara totes has folded Jaws. Finally, Both the Ahamkara and the Worm Gods both use the "Oh X Mine" verbal tick, and both seduce people into faustian bargains.

>>49568230

So the Ahamkara may have yet been similar to the Hive in some regards, adopting the Hive's own methods and techniques in desperation.

What then are the Ahamkara the previous Guardians encountered? Did they adopt the worms, or were they escapees that remained un-worm'd? Regardless, it seems like they were driven to extinction anyway.

File: spa.jpg (45KB, 1024x559px) Image search: [Google]

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Quick question to those that know more about this stuff than me. As far as I've read, there isn't really a concrete answer, but maybe you have some input.

It's said that Pahanin witnessed Kabr's death, and recorded his last words. From there, he created Super Good Advice, because he was afraid of ever being alone. However, we ALSO know that Kabr gave up the last of his light to create the Aegis, after his fireteam was erased from existence and the Vex began to assimilate his body.

So my questions are:

Was Pahanin part of Kabr's fireteam?
I assume so, since it's explicitly said you can't open the Vault alone. Plus, it's unlikely that Kabr would be able to escape the Vault to be able to talk with Pahanin, much less after sacrificing his light to make the Aegis AND being assimilated by the Vex. Also, It seems like kind of a stretch for Pahanin to become obsessed with not being alone if all he did was hear Kabr ramble for a minute, and wasn't actually there to witness his fireteam stop existing. So, by this logic, if Pahanin was indeed part of the fireteam, then why wasn't he erased from existence? I don't know. Maybe you do.

My current headcanon, until someone can help me better parse this out, is that Pahanin was part of the fireteam, and did "witness" their deaths (as much as one can witness someone never existing), and did physically escape while the Vex erased the others, but before Kabr finished the Aegis. I also assume his ghost died somewhere in there, because otherwise he'd have no reason to create Super Good Advice. Why he wasn't erased, I have no idea. However, were I running a tabletop game about it, I'd probably have his existence erased from all records and memory, even though he remains alive. That way, to the Vanguard, he just seems like this crazy person who claims he's a guardian, but doesn't even have a ghost. And when asked to prove it, he just lists off a bunch of people he "obviously made up" that he entered this Vault with.

apologies if this shit has been brought up already

the single most irritating thing about Destiny's fluff is that it's hopelessly vague. It isn't clear whether we're meant to take "the Darkness" as a literal force (although this is the interpretation most supported by the grimoire) or the mythologized version of a group of aliens with a singular philosophy of "the Darkness"

Similarly, we don't know what the Traveler is, what Light is, who the Speaker is, or who the Stranger is (though current fan theory of her being elsie bray makes the most sense)

the things that are cool about destiny are the specifics. The book of sorrow is fucking great fluff, and gives the formerly personality-less hive a lot of life. Their culture and tactics are a reflection of Sword Logic, which is a specific kind of paracausal effect (i.e. space magic) granted to them by the Worms. Sword Logic says that the only right is existence, the only wrong in nonexistence. If I kill you, I was right and you were wrong. Sword Logic isn't just philosophy, though. The worms make it real. Every time a hive kills something it grows stronger.

>>contd

>>49568520
>or the mythologized version of a group of aliens with a singular philosophy of "the Darkness"
It's very obviously an actual force that tainted all the different species in different ways.

It taught the Hive hunger through the worm gods
It taught the Fallen theft through as of yet unknown means and chained them to their servitors
It taught the Vex fear of mortality and bent their knee in worship
The Cabal appear to be running from it

>>49568520
this is complicated by the fact that the worms require death to sustain them. They big scary worm gods gave the original hive larvae (which is what gave them paracausal powers) but as the larvae grow they become more and more hungry, and require more and more violence to sustain them. Oryx realizes that his worm will kill him unless he figures some other scheme out, because at some point there's no amount of killing he can possibly do personally to keep from being devoured from inside. So he uses space magic to set up a pyramid scheme of killing throughout the whole hive. Every time a hive kills now, some of that power goes to their worm and makes them stronger, and some other part is tithed to their superior, all the way up the chain to Oryx

There's another grimoire card where toland the shattered, who is a guardian who went crazy studying the Hive, explains the whole universe in a way that makes it clear why the Hive are so strong. I'd butcher it here, so I encourage you to read it yourself, but the gist is that the Hive, via the Sword Logic and other related powers, embody the winning strategy of all evolution; at the end, the last thing remaining is the only thing that was worthy of existing at all

>>contd.

>>49568587
Oryx calls this hypothetic last thing the Final Shape, and his goal is to be that final shape by killing everything else

so he's a scary dude

I bring it up because this is what brings the Vex and the Hive into opposition. The Vex strategy is not to reach a final perfect shape, it's to make every shape Vex. The Vex seem the most passive because they don't really care if this robot or that robot dies, because they can just warp in that robot from another point in time, or from a parallel timeline. They only spend resources fighting when it serves some obscure Vex goal that nobody else can see, like if we kill this cabal dude then this other cabal dude will never be born and that will stop him from leading the attack at this date, standard time travel shit

they don't care other than that because when the get what they want, which is to be an essential part of the laws of the universe, they'll be able to just unmake anything they don't like (i.e. anything that isn't Vex)

the issue here is that there's no personality, and it's almost impossible to keep track of how Vex gates work or why they do anything at all. this makes them a plot device more than anything. As someone else brought up, the most interesting thing about the Vex is that Skolas tried to use Vex technology to warp in his clanmates from other points in time

>>49568654
The Fallen are interesting enough as it is, only because they're worthy of pity. They're humanity's shadow, clearly what we could have been if a few things are different

the cabal might as well not exist. they have no personality and almost no lore associated with them

the last integral piece of Destiny lore that I want to bring up is immortality, and I bring it up because OP wasn't keen on it (for obvious reasons, it makes for poor roleplaying)

a lot of the setting doesn't make sense without immortal guardians. The dates won't match up without it, people like Saladin won't be alive, and it won't make sense why humanity even still exists without endlessly respawning guardians, which is part of the lore. there's a grimoire card the explains the cabal look for darkness zones (i.e. no respawn zones) and camp out there because it's the only strategy that works against fucking guardians zipping around on bikes and killing hundreds of their soldiers for no reason beyond trying to get mail from people in the tower

>>49568577

the issue isn't whether or not it's physical or a metaphor, as I said, the grimoire points to the direction of a heretofore unseen entity which caused the collapse, and whether that's rightly or wrongly conflated with the Darkness, the thing that the Worms worship, or whether the Darkness just makes you an asshole and is the force of assholery in the universe, i.e. the Fallen

the issue is that it's undefined. it isn't anything. instead of being spooky it just means there's nothing to be afraid of, because it's just a plot device, it has no face, and as far as anyone knows it hasn't done anything directly since the collapse, it's just been kind of hanging out in the outer solar system

this interpretation is the only thing that makes the cabal make sense; they're trapped in the inner solar system. They're an expeditionary force that can't leave because of "the Darkness" and they've been stuck on mars for like 500 years

Seth Dickinson is such a good writer. The grimoire are really engaging because of him.

If only they'd actually let him write some of the game, and not hand it over to BRIAN FUCKING REED, the fucking ignoramus responsible for absolutely nothing that isn't 100% Grade-A garbage.

What the FUCK is wrong with Bungie's leadership?

>>49568471
Pahanin was definitely part of the fireteam. This was always thought to be so, but the mission Paradox confirms it.

>>49568851
Pretty sure Brian Reed is doing Halo, not Destiny.

>>49568284
It seems more like they were a race that operated similarly to the worms, only instead of being overtly "GAS THE UNIVERSE SPACE WAR NOW" they kept their temptations subtle enough to coexist with the guardians for a while.

Worms are described as worms and Ahamkara as dragons, never the other way around.
Worms are a tiny number of continent sized god-like beings, while Ahamkara are much smaller and could be (seemingly) exterminated without much difficulty when the tower got sick of their shit.
Worms stuff you full of larvae, there's no indication of the Ahamkara doing that.

>>49569471
You're right and wrong. He's also ruining that. But in addition to ruining Halo,k I shit you not, they hired Brian Reed to write Rise of Iron.

Bioware also hired him to help write Andromeda, which he left to write Destiny shit.

It's fucking horseshit how some many devs want this cunts help.

>>49569389

Then, what I don't understand is why he was able to escape (which I suppose is easy enough to explain away, what with the Vex focused on erasing the others, and killing Kabr before he completed the Aegis).

But more to the point, why would the Vanguard consider Praedyth a myth, or Kabr's VoG raid as having not happened, if in fact they remember Pahanin, and know he's not bullshitting? It seems kind of hinky to me.

>>49569493
I honestly can not find a single thing on him writing anything for Destiny.
>>49569538
Because Hunters can turn invisible, duh. Only Praedyth was forgotten, due to him being erased from time.
>Praedyth's fall isn't over… because it hasn't happened yet… and it will happen again.

>>49569569
Then why does Kabr say he was alone? There's multiple quotes about him saying "No one can open the vault alone. There was no one with me, but I was not alone". That doesn't make any sense if Pahanin wasn't fucked with time-wise by the Vex. I suppose you could say Kabr was a bit loopy, but that seems like a really bullshit answer to me.

>>49569569
He's just wrong. Brian Reed doesn't work at Bungie. However, his buttbuddy Chris Schlerf, who worked side-by-side with Reed on the disastrous Halo 4 story, as well as on some truly awful comic work if I'm not mistaken, did in fact write Rise of Iron.

So it's not Brian Reed, but it's still a bad situation.

>>49568471
Praedyth was the last member of Kabr's fireteam. He was lost in Vex-time and has since been confirmed dead (at least for he moment) just as Kabr was "erased" but wove his own light into the Aegis, which the Vex are unable to erase.

>>49569704
Right, I get that and all, but I'm asking about Pahanin.

>>49569627
Pahanin was confirmed killed by Dredgen Yor. That bullshit answer is all you're gonna get, really.

>>49568654
>Oryx calls this hypothetic last thing the Final Shape, and his goal is to be that final shape by killing everything else
Similarly, Vex wish to write themselves into the fundamental weft of reality such that everything either fits the Vex Pattern or ceases to exist in all spacetimes.

>>49568654
Vex aren't interesting in and of themselves, but their REACTIONS to things is interesting.

In all of their vast computational prowess, the only thing they could figure out to do with the Darkness is worship it and try to make a new traveler/the black garden.

And yet, they fucking feared Oryx, who is all but Darkness' prophet, and his abilities to the point of requesting help from the Guardians

>>49569627
Regarding Kabr forgetting, as the Vex attempted to write him out of existence hey succeeded in everything but his Light as he forged the Aegis. Everything before that point in time was erased for him because he no longer existed then. The phantoms of his memory exist only because Kabr is the Aegis and cannot be unwritten.

>>49569721
I suppose I am not understanding your question then. Yes, he was part of Kabr's fireteam. No he was not erased from existence, but he witnessed it twice.

>>49534387
>>49534398
>>49534421
You're literally just saying things that are already in the lore. These aren't changes, except for your Hive thing, which is bullshit and robs them of what makes them unique. They are a collectivist race that became dire individualists in the face of indifferent 'greater goods' and given a brutalist, winner-take-all approach which ironically is more compassionate than their old colony-versus-colony nature.

There are also a shitload of interesting creatures in the setting. They're called humans. But snide jokes aside, there are actual fantasy beasts -- the dragons, the Darkness, the Traveler, and so on.

Also what the fuck is this about there being no shades of grey and monolithic factions? The entire game's PVE crux is inter-faction conflict. Vex and Hive are stated to be absolute enemies. Fallen Houses go to war with each other as a matter of course. The House Judgment are vassals of the Awoken monarchy, for god's sake.

Destiny's problem isn't actually its lore, its problem is that its lore's interaction with the game itself is so minimal and obfuscated that it FEELS frustrating and futile to play unless you're really in on that stream of dopamine you get from raid gear.

>>49569569
Don't forget Praedyth used the rift Oryx made in the Vault of Glass to will himself back into reality.

He was also never fully eliminated, as that skeleton was always there.

>>49569627
Pahanin ran away. I forget where it says this, but I think one of the grimoire cards has him cursing his own cowardice.

>>49569872
He also put his mind into ghosts as well. Praedyth best Warlock.

>>49536421
Again, The Hive are a species which began as collectivist and became individualist. Thrall are all sapient, they're just all loyal to Oryx and trust in the Sword Logic.

I kind of like the Speaker idea though.

>>49569897
I dunno, Tolland has always been a favorite of mine. He is just too damn quoteable.

He taught q gun the meaning of Hunger to such a degree not even other warlocks know how he did it, for fucks sake

>>49569822
>>49569854
>>49569892

Yeah but Pahanin literally transcribed Kabr's last words, which talked about being alone whilst entering the Vault of Glass. What I'm saying is, how could he possibly be alone if Pahanin was there and the Vex didn't fuck with his existence?

My question isn't "How did he survive?", which is easy enough to explain with >>49569892's answer of cowardice, or by simply saying he went invisible, or something. (Not that I can fully buy any of these, seeing as he was there for Kabr's death, and thus didn't beat feet immediately). My real question is the one I posed above. If Pahanin's existence wasn't fucked with, then why was Kabr alone? And if his existence was indeed un-fucked with, then why do the Vanguard still consider Praedyth a myth and fail to heed any of his warnings about the Vault of Glass?

>>49569935
Yeah, but Toland's no fun at parties.

>>49569916
Yeah, the Speaker shouldn't just hang out with the rubes, he should hide away in a heavily fortified locale deep in the heart of the city and surrounded by something like undying murderhobos who exist only to kill the enemies of the Traveler he speaks for.

Oh wait...

>>49568654

The personality of Quria: Blade Transform is pretty neat. We don't get much of her, though.

File: destiny Titan's Life.jpg (133KB, 450x577px) Image search: [Google]

133KB, 450x577px

>>49538186
The Traveler could totally just be a cowardly shit, even though it's supposed to be the 'good' guy. Which makes sense, because it's Durandal.

>>49569964
And Praedyth was a time-NEET. He just locked himself in a room and hid until shit blew over.

>>49569975
The Traveler is the tiniest mote of what it used to be, if that one Grimoire card written from its perspective is to be believed

>>49569966
That doesn't make any sense once you make Guardians actually fallible beings with different opinions on shit instead of all working together perfectly in a big happy family.

The fact that there's only one Dredgen Yor makes no sense. I mean, even if they aren't all truly evil like he was, I'd imagine way more Guardians pursue their own interests than we've been told.

I mean, jesus- Osiris' exile alone gives The Speaker enough reason to stop having casual chats with brand new Guardians. He just doesn't make any fucking sense in-game.

>>49569962
Maybe he hid before running away.

Maybe he took advantage of Kabr eating oracles to GTFO after Kabr assumed him dead.

>>49568806
It seems like the darkness is usually unable to manifest itself. By its own philosophy, if it could just zip around the universe like the Traveler and murderfuck everything with bullshit acausal powers, it WOULD.

That's something that always felt off about it to me. Why is it helping anything when it should be killing everything? The only answer that makes sense is that it can't.

Why can't it? I'm guessing its the same type of being as the Traveler, but there's only one body. It doesn't actually want the Hive/Vex and so on to win in the end, its just using them to purge the big ball so it can move in and work towards the final shape itself.

>>49570023
>The fact that there's only one Dredgen Yor makes no sense. I mean, even if they aren't all truly evil like he was, I'd imagine way more Guardians pursue their own interests than we've been told.
This is already more than spelled out with the No Time To Explain quest
>I mean, jesus- Osiris' exile alone gives The Speaker enough reason to stop having casual chats with brand new Guardians. He just doesn't make any fucking sense in-game.
Or it's reason to swat them early before anyone else sinks their claws into the new Angel of Destruction Incarnate

>>49539339
I want to talk about Smart Matter for a moment. Actually, I want to talk about Smart Matter and Transmat.

You can't Transmat things that don't exist -- you can't 'Transmat' a stone into a statue, for example. You also can't simply turn Smart Matter into any goddamn thing, otherwise there would be no reason you'd have to get a fucking Firing Pin for your Khvostov from out in the field. That implies that Smart Matter's capabilities are incredibly limited -- restricted to milling or otherwise shaping components with less machinery. Other parts have to be machined or crafted.

So is Transmat actual teleportation, as opposed to functional (like in Star Trek)? And what the *fuck* is Smart Matter even good for? Altering the very nature of matter for marginal gains in stamping or milling procedures seems short-sighted at best and goddamn wasteful at worst.

>>49570062
Or its using all of them to give birth to itself.

It uses the Hive to attain the Final Shape and then the Vex to write itself across reality.

There's also evidence that it is extradimensional, namely in that it is wherever the Taken get taken to

>>49570039

Again, my question isn't about how he escaped, but even if it was (which it isn't), that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, because then Kabr would be saying his final words to no one while Pahanin hid. Not that it matters, because that's not what I'm even confused about.

>>49540345
Objectivism functions on the assumption that society operates like a machine, or according to absolute laws regarding economics. In Hive metaphysics the only absolute law is your strength.

>>49570116
>Kabr would be saying his final words to no one while Pahanin hid.
Well yeah, he's trying to scribe himself into some form of permanence while he is slowly being consumed by unreality.

If you're confused as to why anyone cam even remember his final words, it's because the Vex failed to unwrite him, they just dissolved him into the Vault

>>49569802

Also consider: why is the Black Garden full of red flowers? What significance do they hold that they fill its boundless fields? When we see Vex from the far past, they aren't the utilitarian forms we see in Destiny's present, nor the Industrial forms we see in its far future. We see them ornate; white gleaming plates in more complex and organic forms, gilded and detailed with gold. The Vex had a Golden Age at one point.

This is a staple of Destiny lore; make something stereotypical, and add a twist that doesn't feel quite right to it. The Fallen have an air of nobility about them, even though they're stereotypical ruthless pirates. The Hive's structures feel like royalty in decay. The Vex have their quirks with stone and flowers. The Cabal? Perhaps it's because of how well-supplied they seem that it implies there's a lot more behind it.

>>49570068
You'll have to enlighten me, but I don't remember anything about that quest helping to fill in the moral gray area of Guardians.

And I think The Speaker willingly meeting with every new Guardian, not even knowing their predisposition or allegiance, is still really dumb. For all he knows that Guardian was reborn years ago and has walked all the way to Russia from the fucking Congo, and is an insane person who loves murdering religious leaders.

>>49570146
And he does that by speaking out loud into an empty room?

My point is, he talks about being alone when entering the Vault of Glass. How could he possibly have been alone if Pahanin was there with him, and not erased like Praedyth?

>>49569962
Kabr's existence = partially erased.
Pahanin hear's his last words.
His last words are after most of Kabr's existence has been erased. Thus his existence with a fireteam has been erased from his own existence.

The effects of Vex time involve lots of ripples, and due to the Aegis, were incomplete. But that is why Kabr believed he had entered alone, knowning full well he could not enter alone. Kabr's erasure is all of that, Pahanin simply watched it.

>>49541273
>>49541295
>>49541312
Doesn't Zavala wear Jovian Guard?

>>49570179
>I don't remember anything about that quest helping to fill in the moral gray area of Guardians.
Praedyth's FWC ghost and how FWC lady was talking about how he kept secrets from even the Speaker.

>>49570194
>And he does that by speaking out loud into an empty room?
People do the same in solitary confinement.

Praedyth did the same.

>>49543781
Space Dragons and the Worm Gods are implied to be either related or one and the same.

>>49570104

Could be it can turn into raw matter, but not shape. The shaping probably has to happen manually, and would probably need tools; something you wouldn't have much of in the field.

It's still fucking useful even if it needs machining. Still, what'd be the point of smiths and crafters if you could program things manually? Also, why would patrols need to gather scrap and recover stuff? Glimmer seems limited in its abilities, but its applications are wide enough to see a whole lot of demand with industry.

But them we get Engrams which actually do have a shape, but it's encoded. Meaning it was shaped first, and then locked in Smart Matter once more for whatever reason. Probably storage.

>>49570207
But he remembers entering. That part isn't gone yet. If he didn't remember entering, he would've said something like "whoa how am I here this is weird". The thing he doesn't remember is who was with him, since they're all supposed to be erased. But obviously that's not true since Pahanin is alive.

The only acceptable answer to this is by saying Kabr was kind of loopy and remembered it wrong, which instantly invalidates not only anything we've ever heard him say, but also totally destroys the weight of his last words since they can no longer be believed. It's just a bullshit answer.

>>49570231
Praedyth was leaving a very deliberate message. That's not the same as "boy I hope a hunter I don't even remember is waiting nearby to hear all this important shit I'm saying to no one while I die/am erased from existence/am assimilated by the vex/give up my light to create the Aegis." Not that it matters, because, again, I'm not really confused about how Pahanin escaped or in what context he heard Kabr's last words. My point is that he doesn't make any sense for Kabr to be "alone" when Pahanin was there. And my secondary point is that it doesn't make sense for the Vanguard to not heed Pahanin's concern over the Vault, or that they still consider Praedyth a myth, if in fact Pahanin came back having not been erased even partially by the Vex.

>>49549482
My favorite line is probably the one the Worm Gods use when giving pre-Ascendant Oryx the Sword Logic and associated materials.

"Small minds might call it Magic."

>>49550480
>>49550551
The Light stuff is a lot more like bees or wasps versus people. You can kill a single wasp no problem, and with a fairly cheap device you can kill thousands, if not millions, of them. But if there are enough of them and they get the jump on you, or you make too many mistakes, or you just *blink* at the wrong time, they can still kill you.

Oryx in particular had the hubris to give the Guardians multiple force amplifiers, making them more akin to a thousand bullet ants than a thousand wasps. It is basically akin to bees making a conscious effort to assassinate Obama, with the gun he gave them.

>>49570387

I like the part when his daughters start explaining what they're doing in the kinds of words we'd use and Oryx gets mad at them like they're using slang and says "you will use the Royal Tongue in my palace!"

>>49568520
The Darkness is so explicitly a force, with a will, that it might better be described as a living being.

After all, everything's in service of propagating the ~~~~W A V E S~~~~.

>>49569538
The Light seems to have some ability to make peoples' personalities and memories exist independent of the flow of time. That said, it will still alter how they once did interpret things, and so even if they remember Pahanin, they may not ACTUALLY remember him, if that makes sense.

They may remember the platonic idea of him rather than Pahanin the person, to put it another way.

>>49570619
So, he was partially erased then? And The Light basically tried to mulligan it? But it wasn't enough for the Vanguard to actually trust him?

>>49570673
Unable to fully erase him, the Vex instead reduced Pahanin to a concept.

>>49570356
Calling Praedyth a 'myth' is a bit of a misnomer. It wasn't that people didn't remember him, it's that even though they did, their actual memories of him - reading about him, knowing him, or otherwise - didn't happen once he was unstuck from time. The Light seems to impart some kind of 'You'-ness outside of space-time, and so people do know that they have encountered him, it's just that those events literally never happened once he was unstuck from time, and so they just got stuck with a wicked sensation of Deja Vu.

>>49570673
>>49570686
It's the same thinking behind the ontological weapons in the Vault of Glass, writ macrotemporal. The trouble is that the Vex don't seem to actually be in control of time or space.

>>49570619
>>49570686
>>49570715
I can accept that. I think that's a fan answer, and there's still inconsistencies with the actual canon interpretation, but I am happy enough with that.

Mostly because basically it agrees with my own headcanon I posed in the original question. But I am satisfied nonetheless. So, thank you.

>>49570692
Right. Okay. Like, when Ikora talks about having heard Praedyth's name from his Revenge and Timepiece, then?

So Pahanin is like that, but he also physically exists?

I'm cool with that. Thanks for the help, y'all.

>>49570575

If we're going to back to debate about three queens, the Darkness is basically the formless answer to the question that says there is no answer and all answers are wrong.

The Light, conversely, conversely, seems to say all answers are correct, as we see diverse philosophies working towards a common goal, each contributing their own specialty to the whole and creating something more than each on their own or any single one taken to its extreme.

>>49570619
>>49570673
>>49570686

The Light has some strange properties. It's very hard to destroy, as people have to seek out the Darkness to figure out how to destroy it. It's been said that The Light can't be simulated, like by the Vex (in the same way Quria can't account for the Worm in Oryx's replication). But it can be created by following through on the Light's ideal and essence in the face of those who oppose or contradict it makes more of it.

>>49570715
>The trouble is that the Vex don't seem to actually be in control of time or space.
Only in the VoG did they have absolute control.

And even that was broken by the Guardians.

>>49570753
It is mostly fanon, yeah, but I'd argue that the Vex not having full spacetime control is borne out by the game existing in the first place and NOT being overrun by Vex. They seem only able to transform and colonize very particular planets, and were flummoxed by the Hive in such a way that their spacetime capabilities were pretty much irrelevant.