Ollanius Pius

OUR guy

>>49503223
The regular joe version or the perpetual one?

>>49503223
The fact that he was turned into the perpetual is the main evidence that GW is out of touch.

>>49503243
He kinda wasn't aware that he is a perpetual so I guess it doesn't matter.

He was more of a martyr when he wasn't fucking immortal with the ability to respawn from just one cell.

>>49503243
>>49503264
For argument sake let's pretend this is regular mortal Pius

>>49503294
Not canon. Was merely a legend before.

This guys reminds me a lot of wolverine: can't die and fight in almost every major human conflict.

myth version is interesting
modern version is trash

his 1d4chan-tier fans are obnoxious twats

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>>49503327
Also memory issues.

Also-Also...

>Pious mourns his family
>Emperor : Why don't you just start a new one, Olly?
>hfw

It is frustrating that he gets retconned all the time even though (in my humble opinion) he is the one that truly shows how far Horus has fallen. Think about it if, Horus killed a Custodes or a Terminator it's not really that big of a deal since those guys are brainwashed, fanatical, slightly dangerous threats. But if Horus killed a normal(-ish?) guardsman then it is tantamount to him killing a civilian. His is truly the sacrifice that convince the Emperor to kill Horus. Damn, why does he have to be retconned

>>49503399
No, this sucks.

What would be more ironically epic is for an immortal saint who happens to be the last catholic in existence to give up his immorality to rescue a jerkass atheist and save all mankind.

His act of sacrifice redeems mankind from the Sins of the Emperor and his secularism.

>>49503223

Feels like someone shit the bed by trying to appeal to fans who are ignorant and are never going to be satisfied unless they got their way to the letter, no matter how much it may not make sense.

>>49503264

No, it's evidence of them trying to pander.

>>49503399

That line of reasoning falls flat when you realize that Horus has indirectly killed who knows how many civilians.

At least with the Custodes or Terminator you could argue that Horus has lost any of the warrior's honor that he may have possessed before.

HH RUINED him with the Perpetual TM bullshit

God I wish they would just fucking retcon the perpetual bullshit...

>>49503412
They both suck.

He's best as a tale told to the working class. The veracity of his sacrifice, his own religious views, or how many real-world wars he's been a part of are irrelevant. All that matters is the guardsmen think he's a hero. Anything added on top takes away from it.

>>49503412
The running theme in 40k is religious domination = bad but the imperium CANNOT get away from it...

>>49503475
The main problem with the whole HH debacle is that the Heresy was supposed to be mythical and nebulous. You were supposed to infer a great deal on your own from bits and pieces. So when you learned more about it you got to piece it together, and the mystery was still there because you just didn't know.

What the HH novels are doing is basically giving you the answer to a murder mystery before making you watch the show.

>>49503534
>The running theme in 40k is religious domination = bad

Not seeing it.

Ecclesiarchy is the major unifying presence in the Imperium and devotion can fuck up deamons.

>>49503399
Pius never did any of that. He just took a blow meant for the Emperor. He didn't inspire the Emperor of Horus' evil (because plunging the galaxy into civil war, nuking Earth and murdering his brother is just typical childish tantrum), he just went "NNNOOOO!" in slow motion and then got blasted by Horus.

Then they decided that the death of a terminator/custodes convinced the Emperor that Horus was bad.

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>>49503223
Better written than the primarchs.

>>49503319
A canonical legend.

>>49503534
>The running theme in 40k is religious domination = bad

No, it's not. Religion is 40K has been shown to have positive effects like acting like a shield against Chaos and performing miracles.

The theme of 40K is that tyranny whether cloaked by secularism or religion, leads to bad ends. However, as we saw with the Emperor's regime, Secular tyranny is more destructive and hypocritical than a theological tyranny.

Pious's sacrifice is meant to highlight how the Emperor go things wrong in an ironic way. Pious is saving the muderous bastard who tried to wipe out the faith he holds unto (See "Last Church" where the Emperor kills a catholic priest and burns down his church in the name of progress. The priest predicted the Emperor's future).

>>49503553
and BILLIONS are killed just because LAWL HERESY, when theres no chaos involved. The religious dogma is what's keeping the imperium oppressed and technologically stagnant.

The ecclessiarchy is unifying in the same way that the Kims unified North Korea. Its not good. The running theme of 40k is THE CHURCH IS NOT GOOD FOR HUMANITY. THE EMPEROR WAS RIGHT BUT NOW HE'S GONE

>>49503399
Horus virusbombed a planet. Killing a Joe Schmo to have the Emperor wonder if Horus is evil is just dumb.

>>49503534

>The main problem with the whole HH debacle is that the Heresy was supposed to be mythical and nebulous.

That wasn't intentional.

The Heresy was just something used to justify or explain various things with no greater scheme in mind. It wasn't until the Index Astartes articles that it started to get fleshed out more as a means of explaining the backgrounds of various Space Marine chapters and the Traitor Legions. In fact it's pretty funny how people shit on the Horus Heresy series for basically just going a bit farther than the Index Astartes articles already did.

The nebulousness of it just had the beneficial side effect of coddling neckbeards since no one could really be right or wrong in their interpretation of events.

Personally I like the Horus Heresy novels for being akin to fictional history and have the feeling that it's most ardent detractors are those I just mentioned, people upset that what they thought turned out to be wrong and people can now point to material to tell them they're wrong.

>>49503534
They should have gone the FW route of making the novels be a historical retelling of the events by later era scholars using information gathered in relation to the Heresy. Have the main characters be people working around the major players and have the events be told from their perspective. You get to experience it all, but still keep everything at an arm's length and can brush inconsistencies and conflicts with "well, it's just their version of the story" or "there's conflicting sources on the event."

>>49503580
On the other hand, he killed Pius personally, in front of the Emperor.

>>49503294
In that case: Nice bit of fluff, and perfect patron saint for the guard.

>>49503412
Meh, I believe there is virtue in simplicity. Adding perpetuals and catholicism into the already complex clusterfuck that is the battle of Terra isn't a good move in my book.

>His act of sacrifice redeems mankind from the Sins of the Emperor and his secularism.
I don't see it.

>>49503576
>and BILLIONS are killed just because LAWL HERESY

The fluff text says that it doesn't matter. Billions die so that trillions live. The Church and Inquisition have kept the Imperium and humanity alive against the threat of the Xenos and Chaos.

>>49503576
The Emperor was wrong and it fucked him up.

There were gods, humanity did need something greater than themselves to believe in, his militant atheism was in large part to blame for everything going to shit and despite his best efforts humanity did become religious again.

and shit as the Imperium is it is holding back things far worse and it is doing so with faith despite what Fedora-Lord Supreme Graham McNeill may claim.

>>49503605
>I don't see it.

Read the Last Church. Pious follows the same faith of the Church that the Emperor destroyed in that book.

See the Emperor's arguments against the Priest. Him saying that religion is no good and that humans don't need it.

In the end of the HH, the Emperor was proven wrong by a Pious soul.

>>49503594
that would have been best. Because like everyone is saying HURR DURR MY version is correct you can now suck it!

it ruined it, we took the primarchs who were Mythical and godlike in their own right. Shitty writers fleshed them out, now they are all man children... Now the Emperor's Imperium is this retardely oppressive tyrrany because...lawwwl secularism is bad m Kay, when before it was a resurgence of mankind, technology was advancing again, man was rebuilding.

Nope stupid people in charge it was worse than 40k HURR DURRR

>>49503607
>what Fedora-Lord Supreme Graham McNeill may claim.

FFS.

You do know that McNeil had the priest sum up the hypocrisy of the Emperor and predict his future?

>>49503592
>going a bit farther

That's the whole point.

There's a difference between stating historical events like WB attacked Calth or SW burned down Prospero and then going into personal details of "Fuck you dad, you never loved me, I'm taking my ball and joining Horus" or making every god damn thing another "just as planned" thing where Pius was destined to save the Emperor and Horus was destined to fail, etc.

>>49503607
The Emperor wasn't wrong in that his actions were starving chaos.

The problem lied with him forgetting how humanity worked because he's been alive so long he can't comprehend humanity anymore. That is untill the next HH book reveales that Emps is just a regular guy.

>>49503607
If the Emperor want the Imperium to be atheist he shouldn't have painted himself as a god. "Look at me I wear golden armour, glows, has magic power that allows me to do super dope shit, mysterious, immortal, and I'll lead you all to bright golden future."

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>>49503642
thats just grasping at straws...

Mankind LIKES having a big strong looking leader. Its not necessarily deifying to make yourself look imposing.

>>49503605

>Adding perpetuals and catholicism into the already complex clusterfuck that is the battle of Terra isn't a good move in my book.

They only made him a Perpetual to justify him being present on the Vengeful Spirit. If he was just a regular human you'd wondered why the Emperor brought him along in the first place or how he survived the hellhole that the Vengeful Spirit had become where Custodes and Terminators had not.

>>49503623

>who were Mythical and godlike in their own right.

In the minds of fans

>now they are all man children

They were already man children

In the Index Astartes article about the Alpha Legion it's stated that the only real reason Alpharius turned is because Horus was the only Primarch he was really close to and some of the others talked shit about his preferred method of waging war.

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>>49503627
Keep telling yourself that.

>>49503641
>The Emperor wasn't wrong in that his actions were starving chaos.

then he didn't know what he was talking about. Chaos feeds off of feels. I just enjoys worship.

Fanatical atheism is fanatical.

>>49503607
If the Imperium hadn't regressed, his atheism might have worked. His whole idea was that if there's no religion, Chaos has less of a way in, since the gods can't infiltrate as just another snake cult or something.

But since things went to shit and people needed something to believe in, all the myriad of cults were given free reign and the Ecclesiarchy slowly devoured them all until they could march on Terra and claim their rights. It's not like they've been perfect either, plunging the Imperium into a civil war competing with that of the Horus Heresy isn't a small thing.

>>49503652
There's making yourself look imposing and then there's the Emperor's brand of image marketing. He has a HALO a universal symbol of holiness and spirituality.

>>49503642
Did 30k Emperor flaunt around his magic, immortality, etc.? Or was he merely a strong leader type that most people saw from afar and associated all sorts of crap to him?

>>49503673
>He has a HALO a universal symbol of holiness and spirituality.

When exactly? His personal insignias have been an eagle head, lightning bolt and the palantine aquila. Halo hasn't been in his heraldry.

The whole 40K seem like jab at secularism.

Lets list all the known atheists/secularists

-The Emperor.

Liar, tyrant, thief, and mass murder. The poster boy for good intentions paving the way to hell

-Fabius Bile the Clonelord

Despite his current situation, He is the last true believer of the Imperial Truth. He is a degenerate mad scientist who tainted the genepool of humanity and destroyed countless billions.

-Goge Vandire

Closet secularist whose hatred of the church led to one of the bloodiest and disastrous eras of the Imperium

>>49503679
Cathedrals on everything, religious looking iconography, depicted having a halo, calling your great military conquest a crusade, installing chaplain as an official rank in the legions, referring to your super soldiers as your Angels of Death. I imagine there is more.

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>>49503679
Traditionally his armor was just white and he had the eagle on his back. He was more roman than GODLIKE

>>49503673
um... no post depiction of the Emperor adds all that stuff.

>>49503597
So? Horus was also standing above the dead body of Sanguinius. It just makes the Emperor seem autistic to have some IG propaganda myth be that important to him.

>>49503667
>Keep telling yourself that.

I don't have to. The book is there for you to read.

>>49503685
Not on his heraldry no. I'm saying on his person

>>49503698
And so far as I can tell it was written completely straight.

>>49503696
its more the fact the Emperor never really saw his space marines as true humanity, just a tool to use for safeguarding it. Like a more autonomous servitor.

So while the primarchs fighting primarchs was horrific to the emperor, it still followed the whole " This is how it's supposed to work" Then emps see s a regular joe get blasted and the sudden realization hits.

Its like when you lose a loved one. It can take a LONG time before you realize, "They are actually gone" then something happens that just triggers it in your mind that they are never coming back. Pious was meant to be that realization that "This shit is forever fucked"

Also keep in mind the Emperor's sense of time is skewed because of how long he's lived. The Heresy in his sense of reality happened in the blink of an eye.

>>49503691
I always took that shit for the writers not being able to write outside of 40k. It pissed me off how 30k Space Marines were the same as 40k Space Marines and the whole " BLESSED BE HIS NAME!" bullshit in Horus Rising.

None of that should have been happening

>>49503735
Or the Emperor was always a hypocritical turd who was planning to ascend to true godhood at some point.

Or he was not as smart as he thought he was.

>>49503725
>Then emps see s a regular joe get blasted and the sudden realization hits.

The Emperor saw more human death than any single living being in the galaxy. He himself killed humans sometimes because it was convenient for him to do so. Heck, John and Alivia made comments about how bloodthirsty the Emperor is. Alivia would know him the best being as ancient as he is and being a empath as well.

You cannot convince me he would care about Horus brushing a side a human more than the fact that he killed Sangy whom the Emperor cared for like a son.

>>49503692
I know its not a Forgeworld model because they haven't even made a hint that they're doing the Emperor, but Hot Damn thats a fine looking model.

>>49503691
>Cathedrals on everything

You mean Gothic architecture?

>religious looking iconography

What makes it religious?

>depicted having a halo

Depicted by whom?

>calling your great military conquest a crusade

Well, the etymology of the word comes from Latin and the term "to mark with a cross." Cross is not just a religious symbol anymore than a swastika is just a Nazi symbol. Hell, the Emperor's heraldry before the aquila was crossed lightning bolts.

>installing chaplain as an official rank in the legions

Chaplain was originally a custodian of relics. SM chaplains are not religious per se and do not, for example, adhere to the teachings of the Imperial Cult, for example. They merely uphold the legion traditions and reliquary, as well as the legion records.

>Angels of Death

And an angel is a messanger or an envoy. Marines are the Emperors messengers/envoys of death. The deliver death.

>>49503725
>So while the primarchs fighting primarchs was horrific to the emperor, it still followed the whole " This is how it's supposed to work"
No, it's the opposite of how it was supposed to work.

>>49503700
Where?

>>49503748
Except regardless of which version of Pious you use, he still thinks Horus can be redeemed after Sanguinius' death, and it takes the death of nameless marine X / ollanius to snap him into the realisation that the warmaster that he treated as a son is nothing more than a monster.

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>>49503652
Roman emperors were deified after death and these were just regular humans, a psychic powerhouse that makes everyone orgasm at the sheer sight of him within several miles, can read minds and glows with a golden halo is not that hard to put on a pedestal and worship.

>>49503747
Typical chaos bullshit. Let me guess you main daemons?
Emps had no intention of "ascedning" seeing as how he was basically a material god anyway. His heart laid truly with Humanity. He didn't care about the Space Marines because they were a tool for preserving humanity. The problem again is that Emps lost all vestigase of his humanity along the way.

He can't remember what the trivial struggle of the day to day is because he simply cannot conceive that any more.

>>49503750
dono, I found it and My god its pretty

>>49503606
>The fluff text says that it doesn't matter. Billions die so that trillions live.

That's kind of the point. This is a dangerous mentality.

>>49503783
>a psychic powerhouse that makes everyone orgasm at the sheer sight of him within several miles, can read minds and glows with a golden halo

Do give some examples of this being how all the billions of plebs knew him during the Crusade.

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>>49503762
But I concede that I was wrong since the HH books never described him as having one (If I remembered it right).

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>>49503561
>Nails in your brain personality disorder

>>49503792
Unless you're Tau, at which point it's for the greater good.

Way I see it, both outcome is flawed. If the Imperium is atheist the Chaos Gods would still exist as they feed on emotion not devotion in fact without a strict "moral" dogma that the Imperium heavily enforces and such mankind's unrestricted curiosity will definitely entice more of them into Chaos. But of course the Imperium being theocratic does impede progress and takes human right out of consideration.

>>49503800
>What are Word Bearers

>>49503792
>This is a dangerous mentality.

Not in 40K. It's the mentality that's keeping humanity alive. There is no other alternative.

>>49503810
Chaos gods feed on your emotions regardless of how religious you are. But when you ban religion, they can't form cults and promote the idea that "hey, if you just get aids and spread it around, you get closer to god" or something like that.

>>49503819
And Humanity is as much of a monster as anyone else in the setting.

There are no good guys in 40k. Only shades of cunt.The human flavour of cunt is religious zealotry.

>>49503787
>Emps had no intention of "ascedning" seeing as how he was basically a material god anyway

That's why he bargained with the Chaos Gods for knowledge and power? That's why he had them make him a god to fulfill his promise to them....

>>49503834
And it works, Anon.

Enjoy your moral high ground as you get enslaved/killed/raped/eaten by the other guys,

>>49503725
No. That's bad writing if taken seriously.

>>49503814
>WB
>plebs
>millions

First of, they were hardcore religious to begin with, they didn't start off neutral and then just come to the conclusion the Emperor was a god. Second, they pushed their ideology on others. Those people didn't just come to the realization on their own. Did the WB even know the full extent of the Emperor's abilities and that he was an immortal super-being from distant past and all that crap?

>>49503834
>And Humanity is as much of a monster as anyone else in the setting.

Yes and? Morality is worthless when survival on the line.

Who cares about good and evil? No one is making a morality argument here.

>>49503857
If you read first 3 books of HH, it's pretty clearly laid out that people went along with what was stated in Lectitio Divinitatus based on their personal needs, experiences and evidence. WB just took it to the extreme but the core need to believe remained and Emperor was too easy not to worship, especially when worshiping him had the knock-on impact on warp.

>>49503824
Thing is even if it is banned religion and cults will still exist. Just look at China. My whole point is that it doesn't matter if the Imperium is secular or theocratic since Chaos gods will still exist and make everyone miserable.

>>49503223
A fucking mary sue that makes no sense and has half the fandom bitching about him despite knowing fuck-all about him. Pius should have just been wholly retconned and the story should return to an Imperial Fist jumping in front of Horus.

Daily reminder that everyone who saw through the Emperor's aura thought he was shit.

Daily reminder that Rick Priestley conceived the Horus Heresy as a parody on Paradise Lost, and that Ollanius Pios was never supposed to be anything more than a piece of propaganda to motivate the IG and that you were never supposed to buy into the propaganda.

>>49503671

He should have worried about line of succession much earlier. Thinking that if you are powerful and don't have an age problem is equal to immortality is dumb. But Emperor's lust for power is more or less confirmed so there are no surprises here. He knew what he should have done - creating a robust government capable of holding Imperium on the right path even if all current leaders died in one day - but he always found other things to do leaving this part for the next day. Cause he actually didn't want to do it for it would have lessened his own grip on the Imperium.

>>49503874
>cults will still exist

Murder's illegal and that still happens. So I guess lets legalize it because fuck me, banning it hasn't and we've just put a lot of people in jail for nothing.

Fringe cults needing to constantly operate in the shadows and be constantly at risk of getting busted is very different from major religion running shit. Yes, the Chaos gods still exist, but the power they get from people going by their day to day business is way less than if they could convince people to give into their base desires. Chaos exists even in the super-religious 40k with no ill effect on the dark gods.

>>49503870
>people went along with what was stated in Lectitio Divinitatus based on their personal needs, experiences and evidence

Were they all people who knew the Emperor was an immortal super-being with godlike powers and a glowing halo around his head, or people who just thought that? Also, what would have they done if texts like Lectitio Divinitatus and WB didn't exist to promote religion?

>Emperor was too easy not to worship

Cult of personality exists even with regular humans.

>worshiping him had the knock-on impact on warp

And this was something everyday people could witness first-hand or was there something else to it?

>>49503861
>>49503854

Then you're missing the point of Pious.

His death was meant to signify that there was more to life than just existing, and that having morals and living - and dying - for a good purpose was better than mindless zealotry for the sake of religious fanaticism.

>>49503924
That's not what I'm saying. All I'm saying is secular/non-secular Chaos God will still exist and in fact by not having a shield that is another religion the Chaos gods might be more effective in tempting people.

>>49503914
>crusade was still under way
>had formed the senate
>had plans for what to do with marines after the crusade
>working on solving the problem with psykers
>working on invading the webway to cut down on the need for the warp
>didn't think ahead

wut?

Longevity is not a problem in the setting. People can, with the right treatments and drugs live several lifetimes. So he had plenty of time to accomplish things and pick a successor once everything was ready.

This was not his first rodeo. He had been major historical and religious figures in the past, so he knows how to do stuff and then fade into history. If everything had gone right, by M41 we would have just remembered him as that one dude that conquered the galaxy. Maybe as several dudes, because he could have very well spend the next 10,000 years editing records and changing history to make his contributions seem less grand and distribute the glory to several figures.

>>49503958
And when religion is ok, it makes it easier for false prophets to infect the population with their teachings. How does the pleb on Assend IV know the difference between Totes Legit(tm) religion and Wrongbad(tm) religion? They're both taught by an authority figure that demands us to give ourselves to their god.

>>49503984
Exactly, it doesn't matter the outcome Chaos will still exist and propagate.

>>49503619
Ok, but how does that redeems mankind exactly?

Not to mention the other things like honor, duty, friendship, brotherhood, or loyalty that could have motivated him into going all bodyguard.
Or the fact that the HH seems to hint that the Emprah was right, since in the last church he's particularly angry at large scale massacres, and Horus turned on the Imperium because of gods.
Hard to go "religious belief is good" due to of one (useless) sacrifice when half the galaxy is burning because of it.

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>>49503561
>angron

>>49504005
>he's particularly angry at large scale massacres

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhhahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah Holy fucking shit.

If this was the case then holy shit the Emperor was Chris Chan levels of autismotron retarded. His means of expressing his anger at the large scale massacres perpetrated by religious institutions of the past was to set up and operate a totalitarian regime more dogmatic and fanatically devoted than any theocracy could dream of that ran day to day on large scale massacres.

If what you say is true they must have intentionally written him to be retarded.

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>>49503962
Nah, this time was different, it was first time he operated openly and pretty much stated from the start - "Alright, I run this shit, now and forever, but I'm not God, k?"
He did everything for humanity but the problem was in that he asked of Mankind what he asked of himself - normally a positive trait in a leader, but he was beyond humanity so much he forgot that people can fall to corruption easier than expected and in the most unlikely of places. You can give people superpowers and create demigods, but you can't augment human psyche.

>>49503656
>If he was just a regular human you'd wondered why the Emperor brought him along in the first place or how he survived the hellhole that the Vengeful Spirit had become where Custodes and Terminators had not.

>Horus uploads bait.jpg and lowers his ship's shields
>Emprah seizes the opportunity does an emergency mass teleport with everyone present in that wing of the Palace, including the poor comms-specialists, majordomos, imperial guards, and the janitor.
>Confused battle everywhere on Horus' flagship.
>Pius arrives at the bridge, either directly, or after encountering nothing but empty corridors, or avoiding traitors already occupied with terminators and custodes.
>See Horus, Horus sees him.
>sprotch

Was that really that hard to imagine?
For all we know, there were thousands of guardmen teleported on that ship, and Pius was simply the last surviving one.

>>49504036
Yep, the last church isn't very good from a theological PoV. I guess it's hard to represent millenia-old superhuman beings, though.
However, the story makes it clear that he sees his domination over mankind as the only way to prevent complete extinction of the human race. And after a 5000 years long age of strife, it's not hard to see where he comes from.


You can read it here (thanks yu-gi-oh...wait, what?!) :
http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/293158-the-last-church-a-story-about-the-good-and-bad-of-atheism-and-religion/

>>49503962

Longevity won't help here. Problem is not even people die. Problem is that people die suddenly.

And he assumed himself to be above that. Professional bias.

Never thought this thread would get this long thanks for participating and sharing your opinions guys

>>49504061
>this time was different

Did he say that and mean it?

I mean, if he has been many figures in the past, how were they different? You don't become a leader of a nation or a religion and not run shit.

>>49504118
You need to open that a little more.

>>49503713
The priest was correct about everything and anything the Emperor said was invalidated by his own actions and the results of them.

>>49503930
Someone dying for the person he believed in was meant to signify there was more more to life than zealotry?

Do you even read what you fucking type?

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>>49504251
>Thinking having faith in man is the same as being a religious zealot
>CheckOutThisAsshole.jpeg

>>49503475
>That line of reasoning falls flat when you realize that Horus has indirectly killed who knows how many civilians.

I don't LIKE the line of reasoning, but it doesn't fall flat on that. It's about showing the Emperor something clear and concrete that can't be abstracted to a number, but that's very clear cut Horus -> kill -> innocent.

The true problem with it is that a guardsman isn't exactly an innocent casualty.

>>49503819
how's there no alternative, just fucking be more Chaos-specific and organized in your killing.

>Oh it works only in a badly organized and inefficient manner

is a weird as fuck mentality

>>49504660
to the primarchs a guardsmen may as well be a civilian
let alone horus with all the chaos gods backing him up

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>Horus is attacking Terra with legions of doom
>countless lives has been lost in the war
>one of the Emperor's sons lies dead at Horus feet
>it's some random soldier getting killed that makes the Emperor's heart grow three time its own size that day

That doesn't sound like obvious martyr propaganda at all.

>>49504880

Imagine you had severe autism, you wouldn't see those implications then and would be free to rage about perpetuals and GW not understanding their own setting on /tg/

>>49503575
That guy wasn't Catholic
He just got a bible and made some shit up
And oll isn't catholic he is just vaguely Christian with no mention of Jesus in his prayers etc

>>49503627
McNeil has a photo of him giving a signed copy of last church to Dawkins - he is a mega fedora which explains why he isn't writing as much now when they need to show faith works

>>49505847
>Atheists cannot write stories where atheists are the bad guys

Is this a strawman?

>>49505816
Ollanius Persson, also known as 'Pious' Oll Persson because of his devout belief in the Catheric religion, was a civilian resident of Calth, in the Ultramar system, at the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, who made his way as a farmer. Before this, he had been a private soldier in the Imperial Army who earned the right to retire; being gifted with service-shares for a plot of land proportionate to his years served (rounded down - the Army always rounded down), he decided to cash them in on Calth, taking on twenty hectares. He chose Calth for two main reasons; the first was that if service-shares were used to buy land on a world newly-opened for colonisation, travel-fares to that world were paid for. The second was that, out in the farther reaches of the Imperium, under the banner of the "New Empire" being forged by Roboute Guilliman and his Ultramarines, Persson felt that it would be easier to practice his faith without incident; religious faith was widely looked down upon in the Imperium as unscientific nonsense. Persson settled down on Calth, living comfortably enough for eighteen years. The only indicators of his past as a soldier were the fading tattoo on his arm, the battered lasrifle mounted on his wall, and the company of an ex-Army loader servitor named Graft, that could not be dissuaded from referring to Oll as 'Trooper Persson'. To others, including his neighbours and several employees, he was just old 'Pious Oll'.

-Lexicaum

Are you implying that Catheric isn't futured up Catholicism?

>>49503750
>they haven't even made a hint that they're doing the Emperor

They haven't made a hint because they flat out stated they WILL make the Emperor, complete with rules.

>>49506264
As Britain becomes increasingly more muslim, how long will it take for Islam to invade into 40k lore?

>>49504997
I just find it funny that /tg/ doesn't get 40k.

>>49503561
>Alpharius
>paranoid
Paranoia is a mental disorder characterized by delusional and typically baseless suspicion of the actions and motives of others. This doesn't fit Alpharius very well, because he actually does have an evil twin plotting to take his place and subvert the highest levels of government by means of repeated magical terrorist attacks.

Anyone else feel like people are overthinking things?

>>49506399
The Greater Good is the ideology of peace.

>>49503561
>Dorn not masochistic
>Kurze not paranoid

>>49503713
its obvious you didn't read the book. The priest said that worship is integral to mankind, as long as there is suffering in the world, man will look to a saviour, Yet the emperor dismissed the priest's assertion that men needs something to believe in and the Big E's arrogance ultimately led to this clusterfuck.

>>49504175

>You need to open that a little more.

Emperor assumed that he will have time for all of his projects including ironing out any bugs that will come up in the process. That assumption was one of the cornerstone reasons of the all the shit that came down during Heresy and after that.

Due to his abilities (psychic power, effective uncorruptibility, physiological toughness, etc.) he decided that he is the best suited man for this role. In which he was correct. But he also took for granted that he will be able to see all his projects through. All that you wrote about the crusade, psykers, webway - in his plans he always was around when this projects were underway. As big boss. This was a mistake.

It was a mistake of putting all your eggs into a single basket. It was a robust and incredibly tough basket with adamantium armored eggs but ultimately it was small and thus vulnerable. Even if we disregard Warp gods there alays was a possibility of death. Even all his might have some chance of failing. Maybe not to handheld or even vehicle mounted weapons but there is almost endless number of more powerful things in the Galaxy. After all his ship could have just got hit by a stray eldar lance or something similar. And chaos based prediction abilities are not reliable enough to stop such problems.

By the time he started looking for possible substitutions it was already too late. Besides instead of using more or less normal humans he decided to use primarchs which while extremely able were not really feat too rule anything. At least not until all their head problems were put to rest. And their numbers too were highly limited which again leads us to the problem of all eggs in a single basket.

>>49507451

Continued.

The other problem was actually the space marines or more precisely their PR. How people were made to see them. Instead of trying to humanize them and connect to the whole Imperium so that they were seen as humans (which sacrificed a lot for the state) he allowed for them to be seen as something apart of all other armed forces or even humanity itself. Angels of Death, Living Weapons, etc.

This stratified Imperium beyond more or less normal for humans hierarchy with powerful and rich man on top. Aristocrats, corporates, governors, kings they were powerful and stood above general population but ultimately they were humans. Space marines were not seen as such. And Emperor commanded space marines and primarchs.

So a new division were made:

Humans - Space Marines - Emperor

Who's the biggest douchebag out of all the Primarchs?

>>49507561
Lorgar. Fuck Lorgar.

>>49503880
this

>>49503475
>No, it's evidence of them trying to pander.

In a terribly out of touch fashion.

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>>49507561
I say Fulgrim. He was a pretentious prick before he went traitor, he's got one of the worst reasons to go traitor, and after he went traitor he ended up being one of the most dickish ones, made worse because he barely suffers any repercussions for all the shit he pulls.

>>49506264
In the future, waifuism and its multiple branches are the only surviving religions. Catherics are the followers of Catherine.

>>49507451
>>49507542
>a reply that's not a paragraph laced with sarcasm

I sort of want to give you a kiss now.

>putting all your eggs

The Emperor didn't put all his eggs into one basket. He had Malcador, Horus led his armies, etc. He had already spread duties around. He left the Crusade because he trusted Horus to run that shit and turned his attention to the webway project. Various expedition forces had their own commands, planets are mostly independent with only the ruler really being responsible to the state, etc.

After he got fucked and was out of the game, Girlyman reformed the Imperium and shit kept rolling quite well for a while. And all that he had set up so far was half-done, and it lasted 10,000 years. How many states have lasted a thousand years?

As for getting killed, he's been alive for tens of thousands of years. It took a super powerful dude powered by the dark gods to give him a challenge and even then he wasn't totally into it. I don't know how much of a good idea it would be for him to form a massive secret society of non-immortals to run the planet from the shadows and trust them not to get fucked. Possible he tried that at least a few times and found it not to be a good idea. And if he dies and can't do shit, what then? Any plans he makes, even when told to a billion people, will last only so far. It's not like everything he has done has been planned from the get-go. He just had to roll with the punches as they came. He probably didn't plan space marines and invading the webway when humanity was going fine. So what can he plan that it'll survive his death?

>instead using more or less normal humans he decided to use primarchs

There were plenty of normal humans, primarchs were made to command the space marine legions. He probably built them to be resilient, capable, and resistant to Chaos (clearly not enough, but still). They were made to lead armies, not the Imperium.

>>49508592
>Instead of trying to humanize them

"Well, maybe that's because Tertius knew there was some value to the men thinking he was the meanest, toughest son of a bitch in the whole Roman legion."
-Capt. Ronald Speirs

Personally, I doubt genetically engineered super-soldiers were the Emperor's original idea. There must have been something similar around. People didn't start worshiping thunder warriors on Terra, as far as I can tell.

>Space marines were not seen as such.

You have to ask yourself how much of this "muh angles of deff" fluff is just crap seeping down from 40k. In the old days Army used pretty much all the same shit as Marines, it wasn't seen as "Marine" and "non-Marine" stuff, it was all "Imperial" stuff. But because 40k Marines have "Marine" stuff (so much so that even suggesting anyone else but Marines use something as simple as a rhino is heretical, even though Sisters, Arbites, etc. use them) 30k Marines must also have their Marine stuff and Army has to be all Guard and nothing more.

At least 30k Marines don't have as much bling on them as 40k Marines. So far.

But to the point: Maybe Marines weren't originally seen as some higher beings, just as genetically engineered super-soldiers. Like Spartans in Halo. Sure, there's some that gain legendary status and their value has been great, but they're not held above the rest of humanity (not until Halo 4, where they became the next stage of human evolution and MC an alien space Jesus), even if they got great combat skills.

>>49503607
Gods aren't real. The Ruinous Powers are just powerful psychic predators. The Emperor knew that, and knew how to starve them out, but in the end Lorgar and his religious fanaticism ruined everything.

>>49508592

>The Emperor didn't put all his eggs into one basket. He had Malcador, Horus led his armies, etc. He had already spread duties around. He left the Crusade because he trusted Horus to run that shit and turned his attention to the webway project. Various expedition forces had their own commands, planets are mostly independent with only the ruler really being responsible to the state, etc.

It looks more like he started it. He did spread duties but there were no clear guidelines for who will succeed say Horus if mister Warmaster suddenly croaks. It all still hanged on the Emperor making those decisions.

He should have started with it right after he ended conquering Terra so that there were people who can take command if anyone upper in the chain would get indisposed for one or other reason (death, serious injury, corruption, treason, etc.). Army and Navy actually had this stuff even if not without some bugs. Space marines were much more vulnerable.

>I don't know how much of a good idea it would be for him to form a massive secret society of non-immortals to run the planet from the shadows and trust them not to get fucked.

Not a secret society. Actual government. The senate was a start. But it still relied on Emperor too much. He needed people that may not have his abilities but who will share his vision and be seen as his substitutes by Imperium even if not able to match him in capabilities. Primarchs for various reasons couldn't work in this role. Malcador was too much in shadow for taking his mantle after Emperor's death. And senate was just a bunch of lords not seen as successors to the Emperor.

Imperium relied too much on the fact of his existence. Even if by the time of Heresy he already dropped most of the organisation on Senate and other governing bodies people still seen him as the sole point on which Imperium stood.

>>49508843
>there were no clear guidelines for who will succeed say Horus if mister Warmaster suddenly croaks

Why would there need to be? I mean, this isn't some Soviet state where the Glorious Leader draws five year plans. If the Emperor wanted to micro-manage everything, he would have done it since the beginning, but he didn't. He didn't have plans in effect for the Age of Strife or anything of the sort. He sets up the pieces and others get to play it. His plan was to unite humanity and cut their dependence on the warp (among other things). What we did after that was up to us.

>He should have started with it right after he ended conquering Terra

There was the senate, lex imperialis, administratum, etc. He can't micromanage everything nor did he. He didn't scroll around the galaxy making decisions for all the planets and expeditionary forces. They all had their organizations and rules on which to operate.

>Space marines were much more vulnerable.

How so? Do you have proof that there were no guidelines for the succession of a legion if the primarch happened to die? You think even if there wasn't a legion couldn't figure out some way of electing a new commander-in-chief without written rules on how it's done?

>Actual government.

You think he hadn't tried? I'm sure he tried had tried to unite humanity under one rule more than once during his time and many of them had failed or not lasted. I'm sure he knew even the Imperium would dissolve in time into smaller states, but as long as humanity was at least somehow united, they'd be stronger than as independent worlds spread across the galaxy.

>it still relied on Emperor too much

How so? The Imperium didn't just blast into pieces after the Heresy. And even after 10,000 years it's still more or less intact. The Roman empire ran for almost 1,500 years and even that time it got reformed and changed a lot.

>>49509633

>Why would there need to be?

So that people won't start the Cain Mantra while running in circles. Indecisiveness can kill in a time of crisis and if Emperor or other command stuff starts dying it is definitely a crisis. At such a time you don't have the luxury of holding long conferences to decide who is fit to rule.

>There was the senate, lex imperialis, administratum, etc. He can't micromanage everything nor did he.

And I don't say that he did micromanage everything. I'm saying that he didn't have successors. Those who could take on his role in a case that he becomes indisposed. All the organisations could work only while there is someone on top. They rarely need actual commands from Emperor but someone must be on the throne.

> You think even if there wasn't a legion couldn't figure out some way of electing a new commander-in-chief without written rules on how it's done?

I'm sure they can. Question is how much time will it take and what moral damage will be done to the legion in this time.

>How so? The Imperium didn't just blast into pieces after the Heresy.

By propping Emperors body on the throne and building on that. They basically had no choice. It no longer mattered if he is alive or dead. They must have made sure that people thought that he was still on the throne. As a symbol. Because there was no one else who can be put in that place.

>>49509938
>he didn't have successors

The senate. The Emperor hasn't lifted a finger to rule the Imperium and they've done a good enough job for the part 10,000 years. Sure, there have been times they needed external guidance, but for the most part they've kept their positions and adapted.

>Question is how much time will it take and what moral damage will be done to the legion in this time.

Even though militaries have strict chain of command, executing the commanding officer of an army is sure to put a hamper on them no matter how well they've organized their staff. Loss of a decision making element is always going to have consequences, which is why they're also the prime targets of the enemy. Yet we keep putting people in those positions because of reasons.

>By propping Emperors body on the throne and building on that.

Mostly to drive the astronomican and keep the webway portal gay away. When it comes to actually driving the Imperium, he hasn't participated in the decision making much after that. The senate, planetary governors, segmentum command, and marine chapters have done just fine keeping the Imperium together. Not the best job possible, but times haven't been kind to the Imperium.

>>49508150
You could say that he came out of entire mess in the most perfect way possible.

>>49508150
Kind of a loose tangent from that, but what was he doing in Path of Heaven, pretty much abandoning the entire war effort with two thirds of his legion and leaving Eidolon to do whatever with the placeholder force that was left?

>>49504066

The fact that when presented with how a normal Imperial soldier being present makes no sense that defenders have to fall back on the Emperor employing some kind of rush strategy further proves how little sense it makes.

Further more it ignores the fact that there is a war going on outside and that there is little reason for Imperial soldiers to be present within the inner most sanctum of the Imperial palace.

We do know who the Emperor brought with him in the current lore, his Custodes guard, Sanguinius, and Dorn. Sanguinius and Dorn were originally going to get left behind, but after prodding the Emperor eventually relented and allowed them to join.

There is little chance that Pius would arrive on the bridge since Horus used his powers to mess with the teleporter and scatter the Emperor's party across his ship. It's also unlikely that a normal human would survive even the empty corridors of the ship itself given how warped it is described as being.

>>49513600
>makes no sense that defenders have to fall back on the Emperor employing some kind of rush strategy

How so? It was a gamble. There was an opening in the enemy defences and it was his chance to end the Heresy. There was no point limit on the mission and I'm sure there were teleporters in the palace, so why not order anyone who can carry a gun and isn't at the moment fighting someone to get into a teleporter and go in?

>there is a war going on outside and that there is little reason for Imperial soldiers to be present within the inner most sanctum of the Imperial palace

Why weren't the terminators fighting the traitors, instead of just sitting around with their powerfists up their asses?

>There is little chance

Small chance is still more than no chance. His teleportation could have suffered a mishap and he could have arrived late, just in time to see Horus about to bash the Emperor and just charge in going "NNNOOOO!!!" in slow motion.

>It's also unlikely that a normal human would survive even the empty corridors of the ship itself given how warped it is described as being.

How did the Emperor know how bad it would be? Besides, SA are said to be second only to the Marines. They're not exactly total mooks. Besides, even if he survived for 5 seconds, that's 5 seconds the enemy is distracted and 5 seconds worth of las shots and grenades being tossed.


But lets say it's all a legend that there's no perpetual Pius or anything. How does the legend make sense? Anyone can raise the same questions about Pius in legend being present as you're making now. "Why would the Emperor bring humans to the Vengeful Spirit?", etc.

>>49503223
>Ollanius Pius
>Not Oillianus Pion the hero tech-priest who sacrificed himself to save the omnissiah.

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>>49503561
>Literal only sane man
It must have been hard being so great.

>>49514279

He had some insecurity about his wings going on. He suspected he was just some mutant while everyone was calling him an angel.

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Wonder what the reaction would be if the original origin of the Imperial Cult had been written today.

>>49506399
Nurth?

>world of Chaos-worshipping desert-dwelling towelheads who used a "Black Cube" powered by their own willing deaths at the hands of the occupying Imperial Army to turn their entire planet into a suicide bomb

>>49503561
I think it might be fare to say Snag was a bit depressed because of his Legions genetic flaws. Other than that its pretty spot on.

>>49503223
I liked him better as just a regular guy.

>>49503632

Just as planned is the inevitable result of Tzeentch existing and Chaos' victory being inevitable. Just like in Fantasy.

The "normal dude" version is bretty gud

The "immortal dude" version has some higher points and some lower points

>>49513976

>>How so? It was a gamble. There was an opening in the enemy defences and it was his chance to end the Heresy. There was no point limit on the mission and I'm sure there were teleporters in the palace, so why not order anyone who can carry a gun and isn't at the moment fighting someone to get into a teleporter and go in?

The Imperial Palace or its innermost sanctums were already on the verge of being broken into by the Traitors. Pulling defenders away on the slim chance that they may be able to do something to Horus would be foolish. Not to mention the Emperor expected to teleport right onto the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit, not have his party scattered.

>Why weren't the terminators fighting the traitors, instead of just sitting around with their powerfists up their asses?

I have no idea why you're bringing up Terminators when they only function in an earlier version of the story. As I said current lore is that Sanguinius, Dorn, and an unknown number of Custodes accompanied the Emperor.

>How did the Emperor know how bad it would be?

He didn't, he planned for a surgical strike. I say it doesn't make sense based on what transpires afterwards where we learn the state of the ship and that even Custodes die fighting its inhabitants.

>SA are said to be second only to the Marines

I don't recall it being said anywhere that Pius was Solar Auxilia.

What it comes down to is Pius being a normal human in an event that is supposed to factual and surviving makes no sense and one has to come up with a lot of equally nonsensical excuses to justify it. At least with him being a Perpetual there is the possibility he'll use the dagger he swiped off of a Word Bearer to teleport close to the fight.

As I said, they should have left him as propaganda and known that their pandering was going to fall flat on its ass with people who are already ignorant about the event and only know memes and GW being bad.