Scion 2e is now on Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/

>>49494017
I always have people mock Loki for the time he tied his balls to a goat's horns.

>>49493145
>>Hecate and Janus not in the Theoi
>i mad
It's not like they're going to cover every God from every Pantheon ever.
I also wouldn't be surprised if in The World some Gods not from major groups are either lumped into larger Pantheons in a sort of "me too" when it comes to the world stage or just don't get Pantheons.

Which god/pantheon is best for fluffy tail?

>>49494263
>Which god/pantheon is best for fluffy tail?

Inari, kami of of fertility, rice, tea and sake, of agriculture and industry, of general prosperity and worldly success, and foxes. Male, female, androgynous, chicks with dicks, whatever you want...

>>49494259
It's pretty easy to add gods, man. They're just a collection of benefits and character options.

>>49494322
I know. All the more reason they're not going to add 100 options for every pantheon.

>>49494263
Seconding Inari. It's literally a kitsune deity.

>>49494322

Is there enough material yet to start homebrewing some pantheons?

>>49494017
Our group plays it up. One dot of Occult basically gives you knowledge of every mythological dirty deed the character's pantheon passed down through the ages. If it made it into the tales and still gets told today, it's fair game to be brought up in casual conversation.

>>49494154
>Scion of Thor mocks Loki for doing that
>Loki responds with "Well guess what? I fucked your mom!"
>Cue Scion of Thor's sibling turning out to be a Scion of Loki

I actually want to pull something like this now.

>>49494920
>Is there enough material yet to start homebrewing some pantheons?

Only what we have of the Theoi, as far as I know.

>>49495644
How the Theoi work is how the others work. They have their associated Asset skills, their two struggling virtues, and each god has three callings and whatever purviews you think encompass their focus.

>>49495551
Actually, how would that work? If two gods had children with the same mortal?

>>49495717
They don´t have to be twins, anon.

>>49495717
Exactly as >>49495551 said. They'd be siblings, but aside from having the same mortal parent(and everything that goes with that), there'd be no difference between them and any other 2 Scions, probably.

>>49495671

And we have spoilers for all of their specific Purviews (in name, at least) and some of the Virtue pairs. The Netjer are Balance and Justice, the Orisha are Innovation and Tradition.

>>49496181
Yeah, you could probably do some preliminary work, but we still don't have all the available information.

I like how many pantheons we'll eventually have, too. May one day be able to start out a plot with, "The scions of Loki, Anansi, and Coyote walk into a bar..."

>>49494017
>Do you ignore or play up the fucked up stuff that gods have done in myths when you play?

Both, actually.

>>49496425
Well yeah but you don't need all the pantheons you'll ever have known to homebrew one. You just need the full list of callings and purviews. Though of course unique pantheons will need you to homebrew their PSP.

>>49496440
How? Take your (you) and give a substansive answer!

>>49496425

10 in Hero plus 2.5 as stretch goals, 5 each in Demigod and God plus further stretch goals. We know the Navajo, Mayan, Slavic, Mesopotamian, and Polynesian are in Demigod, and the Lakota, Guarani, Inuit, Welsh, Canaanite, Australian have all been mentioned. It would be easy to do regional variants on the Devas or add the Ainu to the Kami.

>>49496487
>How?
It's not that difficult.
In many mythologies the deities usually do both beneficial and fucked up things in turn depending on their mood and how obstinate they are.
I basically treat them like how younger folks see their parents and grandparents; as they get older you pick up on all their mistakes and problems they are 100% at fault for even if they didn't mean to actually be such pains in the ass all the time even as you become of aware of the ways they wanted to and tried to helo here and there.

The difference is the deities failings are writ large compared to mortal parents do their mistakes borne out of prejudice and "it was socially acceptable back then" and "seemed like a good idea at the time" excuses are that much crazier and problematic.

The Scions are reflective of this; like any children with flawed parents they can rebel against them, sympathize with them, learn from their mistakes or learn nothing at all and just make the same ones all over again.

>>49495717
The Visitations make all the difference, same as how it dictates when two Scions of two different pantheons breed a Scion of their own: negotiations begin immediately for which pantheon gets to make the Visitation to bring that new Scion into their fold as opposed to the other.

>>49496425
My group kind of has that now. We've got a Scion of Hermes, a Scion of Sun Wukung, and a Scion of Mannan mac Lir tagging along Fatebound to a Scion of Hel and a Scion of Apollo. It's pretty much a laugh riot.

>Loki calls Odin, God of Magic (and other things) gay because he practices women's magic
>Odin recalls that Loki once turned into a female horse and was impregnated, and carried the resulting monsterbaby to term
>Loki BTFO
Gets my sides ever time

>>49497401

Didn't that go the opposite way, with Odin ragging on Loki until Loki points out that he does girl magic?

>>49497401

As >>49497429 says, you have it exactly backwards; that argument ended in favor of Loki, not Odin.

The women's magic is MORE girly than literally being a mare and getting fucked and giving birth.

>>49497472
Truly it is worse than neon pink dresses and Barbie.

I just realized that the Theoi virtue set basically makes Kratos's insane rampage over the three God of War games into essentially an infinite Legend refill. If he were a Scion with the right boons and domains that completely contextualizes his endless series of heroic feats. Egotism is his Legendary virtue, it was constantly refreshing things.

>>49499743
That is creepily sexual.

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>>49499778
You're welcome!

Out of curiousity, has there been any news of signing up for being a potential playtester? Or is OPP paranoid after Exalted?

>>49500464
I just know the dev, and he knew I was super excited for 2e so he asked if I was interested. I'm pretty sure most of the playtest groups are like that with people involved in the process. Game is pretty much done mechanically, we're mostly playtesting for confusing wording of rules and seeing how things shake out when more people who aren't the write staff who invented them handle in play.

I can't speak to the done status of the fluff, but I think the game shouldn't be that far out after the KS is done. Be strong, anon.

>>49498719
Yeah, God of War was a prominent enough IP that I'm sure they considered it while designing this. That and Percy Jackson are the only really big Greek God IPs since Scion 1e came out.

>>49500603
Unless you're looking to count the Clash of the Titans remake and Wrath of the Titans as being inspirational.

>>49500602
tell me more about jiibayaabooz

>>49500896
I find his name hilarious. Not about to copy purviews/callings though. Anyway, good night Scion friends

I'm new to Scion, but not to OPP/WW games, and just started checking-out the Kickstarters.

How does Scion's setting deal with monotheistic religions and the Jewish/Christian/Muslim God?

>>49501478

Copypasting from other thread just to be sure:
>Generally it just ignores them.

>There was one blurb that monotheism is a plot by the Titan of Light to undermine the gods, but that's about it.

>>49501478

1e had monotheism as a ploy by the Egyptian Titan of Light to gather power for himself. I believe 2e has rightfully thrown that out and largely doesn't deal with it, and it seems likely that The World either has more henotheistic Abrahamic faiths (our god is the only god that matters) rather than strictly monotheistic or just more forgiving history. The writeup for the Greco-Roman pantheon mentions that the Eleusinian Mysteries are a millions-wide religion in the modern day.

That said, the Canaanite pantheon is slated for a later stretch goal, and they're the guys that give us the dude who eventually winds up as YHVH.

>>49501532
I wonder if they're still going to do the Titan thing like they did in 1e, given the huge number of Pantheons now...

>>49501714

Titans are still in, but not as explicit bad guys and somewhat redefined: while gods embody their Purviews, Titans /are/ their Purviews. Ra is the sun god, but Aten lacks the more human angle and can only exist as the sun and its fire.

I think some of the Pantheons get along pretty well with their Titans now, like the Netjer and the Orisha.

>>49501532
Or they'll finagle it so that YHVH is a God of no pantheon who doesn't produce Scions because he's not interested in warring against the Titans. His plan is to Axis Mundi all of Israel into his Overworld realm, then cut it off from everything else if the Titans manage to break through and wreck the World.

Alternatively, they can Ahura Mazda him and he's MIA.

>>49501805
Huh. Interesting. So they're not the be-all end-all ultimate antagonist, necessarily.

>>49501816
I always liked the idea of Jesus as a strangely non-confrontational plot device. Is he a Scion? A Scion who ascended? A shard of the God of Abraham? And why is he so fuckin' chill all the time?

>>49501819

Yeah. The Pantheon we get the Titans from, the Theoi, has them already beaten and either dead or imprisoned, and forcing the Titans onto other Pantheons was always dumb. Now it merely describes the less-human gods, rather than the bad guys.

>>49501842
As Tom Bombadil as that sounds, I'd almost prefer he gets treated like the Elene God in Eddings' Elenium and Tamuli: existing but refuses to get directly involved in any aspect of day to day living of his followers or in the affairs of other gods.

>>49501816

Alternatively, the Pantheon consists of Angels who serve YHVH but he isn't one of them. So you're a Scion of Gabriel or Uriel.

>>49501842
>>49501928
I'm a fan of both the Preacher and Unknown Armies versions of him

Preacher: He was actually given a bit of divine power by God, but he wasn't really anything special. The resurrection was just a very convoluted trick by him and some pals, but enough people believed in his divinity and worshiped him that an organization was set up, called the Grail, to keep him safe. When he died, they kept his kids safe, and decided to force his children to inter-breed, to keep the holy blood pure. Cut to ~1995, the Grail is still going, currently run by a fatass called Allfather D'Aronique, and they're still trying to keep the holy bloodline pure. The kids are as retarded as you would expect from ~1950 years of incest, and the youngest is decided to be the new Messiah after Y2K hits, since they plan to cause bad shit to happen in order to get people looking for God again.

Unknown Armies: There is no God. The closest there is to Jesus is a man called the Comte de Saint-Germain, the First and Last Man. Instead of a God, there are ascended Archetypes within the zeitgeist. The Comte was the first man born, and will be the last man to die. When 332 Archetypes have ascended, the world itself will fall apart, and he will ascend as the First and Last Man, kicking off a reboot of the world back to 0. And then he's born again. He remembers every instance of the world he's lived through, he's immortal, and he is a living plot device. He exists purely as a character for the GM to use however necessary, though there's an assumed agenda behind everything he does. The 3e playtest replaces him with the Human Eternal, an ascended version of another plot device from previous editions, who is more active in helping people, but has no idea what they're doing because they've only lived a single human life.

>get around to reading the preview
The shit? Did they actually go making the new setting into an open for all fantasy bullshit one with gods and monsters being well known and temples in the streets? This all better be some kind of creative hyperbole, or my group and I are all pulling our pledges. What kind of clown completely changes the basic concept of their game between editions?

>>49502096

Scion has never has a masquerade, anon.

>>49501962
>the Pantheon consists of Angels who serve YHVH but he isn't one of them. So you're a Scion of Gabriel or Uriel

Or a Scion of Lucifer...

>>49502102

Are the existence of gods and such open and obvious in the default setting?

>>49502102
Yet it was very strongly implied in the books that the world is still the way it is today except in any way the players choose to change it. NPCs aren't aware of any divine bullshit by default, there aren't freaking troll preserves in Norway and nobody worships any pantheon who isn't in New Orleans or a Nazi.

I came to play American Gods, not some wacky modern version of Exalted. This change in tone is just waaaaaay too drastic. Like if on the way from WoD to CofD they'd made Monte Cook's post apocalyptic setting the default one. Players are literally signing up for something completely different.

>>49502096
>>49502173
The previous edition was American Gods, this one's the Wicked and the Divine. A black protagonist and the gay efreet scene just weren't inclusive enough for OPP.

>>49502113
My 1e Scion came from a homebrew Abrahmic pantheon that was entirely Archangels and he was a son of Lucifer.

Pretty neat stuff.

>>49502173
So play American Gods? There's nothing telling you that you are legally required to play the game without a Masquerade.

What's stopping you from STing a Scion 2e game where mortals don't know about all the divine stuff going on?

>>49502185
Yep, that's right, and when you pledge to their "Kikestarter" you have to get an SJW barcode tattooed on your forehead so that black men know who to cuck.

>>49502173
>>49502185
The problem with the previous edition's setting was that it was internally inconsistent. They TRIED to make it an American Gods-esque setting where all the mythical stuff happens in complete secret, but instead of American Gods-esque mythological figures with a focus on surrealism, subtle nods to literature and very poetic powers, they went with a comicbook superhero style "TODAY THOR PUNCHES A DRAGON THROUGH THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING". All they achieved was giving GMs a lot of headache trying to figure out how those two elements combine.

The new setting is meant to be more "logical", basically.

I do agree that it's a problem, though, because "American Gods: The RPG" has always been one of Scion's main appeals to people. With the setting changed to this degree, you can't really make the claim anymore.

>>49502221
>So play American Gods?
This is a stupid ass fucking argument.

>Don't like the new mechanics? WELL JUST PLAY WITH YOUR FAVORITE MECHANICS THEN
>Oh, don't like the new setting? WELL NOBODY'S STOPPING YOU FROM CHANGING IT
>Still buy the book though, even though all you'll have left is the pictures to look at, we could really use the money

It's like the guys on GURPS threads telling you that you're really intended to ignore everything in the books. If you're going to be doing that anyway, you might as well save your money.

>>49502295

You're retarded. Throwing out the fluff takes zero effort at all, while throwing out the mechanics involves playing a whole other game.

Chill out. We've seen fifty pages of about 600.

>>49502173
>NPCs aren't aware of any divine bullshit by default, there aren't freaking troll preserves in Norway and nobody worships any pantheon who isn't in New Orleans or a Nazi.

Damn, I hate Norwegian trolls.

>>49502305
Not >>49502295, but I am >>49502096. As it happens, I actually don't like the mechanics. I was willing to accommodate them for a new edition of Scion, but it's pretty much like >>49502295 says. If the setting's changed to this degree, the book can offer me nothing. I'll see where this goes, but if this is confirmed we're cancelling our pledges.

>>49502305
>We've seen fifty pages of about 600

However, in the little we've seen, it's certainly implied that the pantheons are a very open and integrated component of the world in the default setting.

If you're looking for a real world analog with secret gods, Scion 2e probably will not be to your liking. Suggesting that people just ignore the setting is not particularly helpful or productive.

The basic setting is definitely something that OPP should discuss or preview sooner rather than later.

>>49502307
>I hate Norwegian trolls

They're at least better than the smaller and stinkier Canadian trolls.

>>49502340
Which is some bullshit. It's like if they'd made the new edition of Shadowrun take place in a steampunk setting. Who gets into Shadowrun to play steampunk? Shit, it's practically dishonest of them. I guarantee you that a lot of people pledged to that kickstarter who aren't even aware of the magnitude of the change because they naturally assumed changes like that won't be made between editions of a game.

>>49501805
>Orisha
>Titans
What? Maybe because I'm mostly familiar with them from the syncretic perspective, but what titans do they have?

>>49501842
Putting Buddha into the cosmology would be a better "here's this thing that doesn't make sense" though.

>>49502363

Did Scion 1e ever say the magical and mythical were hidden, though? From what I remember it barely had a setting at all beyond the Pantheons and "go fight the Titans."

>>49502391
Yes. It was super hidden. You had fire giants and ice giants looking like dudes dressed inappropriately for the weather, and that kind of shit, by the magic keeping them hidden.

Do we know yet if the mechanics are solid? Trying to get 1e rules to be engaging instead of a fucking chore was practically impossible.

>>49502474

Depends on if you like storygame stuff or not. It's right between nWoD/CofD and FATE, with some PbtA stuff tossed in there.

I like it, but the grognards don't.

>>49502363
Which is a bit ironic since when Scion 1e came out, people were upset that it wasn't more like Exalted or Aberrant.

>>49502391

Arguing over whether in Scion 1e the supernatural was explicitly "hidden" misses the point.

There's a very big difference between a setting that is basically still our own world versus a alternative world setting where the pantheons are openly incorporated into popular culture, politics, economics, etc.

OPP should clearly indicate which type of setting is the default in order that people can intelligently choose whether they want to pledge.

In fact, the basic setting was arguably far more important a preview than the mechanics.

If the setting is not previewed soon, and people believe they've pledged under false or deceptive presumptions, it will cause a lot of unnecessary discontent or even a backlash.

>>49502527
>if the setting is not previewed soon

Five months ago?

http://theonyxpath.com/the-world-scion-second-edition-open-development/

>the basic setting was arguably far more important than mechanics

Setting is easy as shit to change at your own table, and they fully intend to publish alternate setting Shards... all of which will use the same rules.

>>49502391
Mostly, like >>49502240, it was internally inconsistent. White Wolf tried to have its masquerade cake and eat it, and they clearly didn't think too deeply about it. On the one hand, you had stuff like "Mortals see giants as just irregularly large, intimidating looking people" and the setting descriptions made every implication that the world was not any different than ours on the surface. At the same time, between the Knacks, Purviews and creatures depicted even in Scion: Hero it was ludicrous to assume that people wouldn't notice. Yeah, the starting fiction was written in such a way as to make it feasible that all of Eric's adventure happened in secret (he only ever interacted with dwarfs, etc.), but for the ongoing campaign? The moment "Thor punches a dragon through the empire state building" the whole charade is off.

>>49502498
Well 1e Scion was unbalanced to the point of unplayable, so it'd need a significant degree of improvement to be fun. If you've got to throw out the mechanics of the game you might as well be playing freeform.

In the original, specializations were so absurdly strong that anything you were specialized for was no challenge whatsoever, and everything you weren't specialized for was TPK-tier deadly. If the Scooby Gang ever split up for any reason, everybody was immediately and irrevocably screwed.

>>49502547
That portrayal seems like it's intentionally shit, since it you take everything they say literally, it could be very inoffensive.

>>49502565
Pretty much. All the 1st ed books were clearly written under the assumption that the supernatural remains secret, but didn't actually include any information on how this could possibly happen considering the power put in the hands of the players.

>>49502498

The new OPP system seems to be very narrative based, and far closer to FATE than even the "rules medium" that characterizes the CofD.

RPG fans tend to like or hate such systems, and it's impossible to please everyone.

I personally prefer crunchier systems, and the setting would need to be fantastic to compensate. Time will tell as more previews are released. However, I want a real world with secret supernaturals setting rather than an alternative world gods are among us setting. A FATE-like system with a gods among us setting means I will not pledge. YMMV.

This is bordering on a scam. If you change both the mechanics and the fluff so much, continuing to call it "Scion" just reeks of hoping people won't realize and buy it expecting something completely different.

>>49502601
>I want a real world with secret supernaturals setting

White Wolf/Onyx Path already has two of those in the World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness settings. Rather than say "hey, what if WoD with a thin coat of mythology paint!" they've elected to make a different setting.

>>49502547
>Setting is easy as shit to change at your own table, and they fully intend to publish alternate setting Shards... all of which will use the same rules.

Why would I pledge for a rpg if I don't like the basic setting? There are more than enough games where I like the setting and mechanics to occupy my time and limited resources.

If and when an alternative setting book is then released, and it suits my tastes and preference, I will be happy to reconsider the game. Until such time, I hope the people who buy the book enjoy their purchase.

Nevertheless, I will wait for further setting previews before making a final decision, but I'm not optimistic.

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>>49502660

cool blog post

>>49502660
The thing is, you don't need a book for "it's just like real life but secretly there's gods" because that kind of thing is pretty intuitive to run.

>>49502620

You're missing the point.

You're arguing the value of an alternative world setting for Scion. You are entitled to your own preference, but that's not what I want or wish to spend my money on.

The issue is whether OPP is clearly previewing the setting so people can make an informed choice to pledge or not. Effectively demanding that people like your setting preference is not helpful.

>>49502677
>The thing is, you don't need a book for "it's just like real life but secretly there's gods" because that kind of thing is pretty intuitive to run.

Hundreds of books and decades of CofD and WoD marketing and sales would beg to differ.

Again, each person has their own setting and rules preferences in rpgs. I'm only suggesting that OPP clearly preview the Scion setting so people can intelligently choose if they want to pledge.

>>49502668
Buzz off. He's being perfectly reasonable, and even polite. You're the one who acts like a turd here. People are not liking what you like. Deal with it.

>>49502714
The stuff that's in those books is the stuff that's the same if there's a masquerade or not, though. Having two separate worlds, one of which is the one we live in in real life, is easy. The hard part is fusing them, not separating them.

>>49502620
Are you fucking retarded? Would you say that Men in Black is just World of Darkness with aliens because they both have the paranormal being hidden? How about American Dragon: Jake Long? The Dresden Files? The Percy Jackson series?

There's more to the definition of a setting than whether or not that supernatural is revealed and the old Scion setting had plenty of appeal as it was.

>>49502811
Ignore him, it's probably Atamajakki going off again. He's notorious for making every possible argument, no matter how poorly constructed or out of context, in order to defend OPP products. Apparently he believes that if he worships them zealously enough one day they'll give him a job.

>>49502221
>My 1e Scion came from a homebrew Abrahmic pantheon that was entirely Archangels and he was a son of Lucifer.

I'd have loved to have figured out a way to port In Nominae's factions into Scion as two opposing pantheons of sorts.

>>49502567
I'm a big fan of redundancy in parties for that very reason.

>>49502096
>The shit? Did they actually go making the new setting into an open for all fantasy bullshit one with gods and monsters being well known and temples in the streets

Where are you reading this?

>>49501816
I always used the logic that since Yhwh was originally worshipped as a different god, a Mesopotamian war god for a region home to proto-Israelites, and was bastardized into an all encompassing monotheistic God by his followers as time passed and they basically made him into whatever they wanted that Yhwh is basically a mirror now. Not a god, the shadow of a god. It reflects the needs and wants and beliefs of its people, provided that their desires and beliefs are clear enough. Since no one can quite agree on what the nature of God truly is, the net output of the God-mirror is effectively zero.

>>49503100
It's in the Kickstarter previews and the "The World" open development post on the OPP blog.

>>49503100

There's a line in the Google Doc linked to the Kickstarter page that describes Icelandic troll reserves, which seems to be causing all the moaning. The OPP blog post basically just says that the old religions didn't die out in Scion, and the Theoi preview mentions that the Eleusinian Mysteries are a millions-strong religion known to The World.

>>49503184
What seems like a bigger problem to me is that they imply that history saw really big differences (Julius Caesar being a Scion going to a Scionwar in Gaul and the Emperor of Japan being an actual son of Amaterasu) WHICH ARE IMPLIED TO BE COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

I don't think these guys understand how alternate histories work. The amount of writer's fiat that's gonna have to go into "gods and monsters were always known and influential, but the world basically looks the same today" is flabbergasting, and bound to take any shred of believability out of the setting.

>>49503236
^

One of the biggest reasons the idea of a "masquerade" being invented in fantasy literature was in order to make it possible to have stories take place somewhere which is recognizable to us as the modern world, except with supernatural elements in it. Even Anne Rice understood way back then that if all the vampire shenanigans were well known, there would be no way to make things look remotely like they're now.

>>49503184

There are a lot of references to links between popular culture and business and pantheons in the Greek/Roman gods preview.

do you all bitch about comic books being unrealistic too

fuck's sake, it's a game about mythology-themed pulp action, stop thinking so hard

>>49503285
>do you all bitch about comic books being unrealistic too
When I buy a comicbook, I know the level of silliness to expect. I don't think many of the people here pledged knowing that this was what they were getting into. Many of us don't want to play in a wacky comicbook universe.

>>49503285
>fuck's sake, it's a game about mythology-themed pulp action, stop thinking so hard
Fuck off, you know that OPP isn't marketing the game as a silly, pulpy romp. It's presented as taking itself seriously, so people will take it seriously. If it does that and then it turns out to be silly and nonsensical, than it's false advertising and people have every right to be upset.

>>49503270
It is only said that the gods still have a great influence.

>>49502565
>On the one hand, you had stuff like "Mortals see giants as just irregularly large, intimidating looking people" and the setting descriptions made every implication that the world was not any different than ours on the surface. At the same time, between the Knacks, Purviews and creatures depicted even in Scion: Hero it was ludicrous to assume that people wouldn't notice.
Wans't the abundance of Scions with powers a relatively recent thing? The deeds of Scions being noticeable and obviously supenratural isn't really a problem. Even if they are that, the world right now can still be very similar to the real world, it's just that lately, in the last years or decades, there have been more and more rumors about weird shit happening around the world, and these rumoirs are starting to seem more and more credible. Personally, I just want to play a relatively reglar modern person thrown into a world he didn't know existed. I want to see modern sensibilities and world-views clash with the values, goals and traditions of old pantheons. Whether the masquerade inevitably breaks as the game progresses doesn't really matter to me in the least, but there being amasquerade of sorts when the game starts makes things more interesting for me.

>>49503411
>Wans't the abundance of Scions with powers a relatively recent thing?
Due to the Titan War metaplot, the assumption was that the game always starts a bit after they go free, resulting in the monsters running wild and the gods scrambling to activate all their dormant Scions in a historically unprecedented fashion. It was all very poorly implemented and it's clear that White Wolf didn't give it enough thought.

>>49503411
>>49503465
Like many of the 1st edition's fuckups, this is the result of White Wolf really wanting to make American Gods: The RPG, but ALSO wanting to do a modern version of Exalted and failing to appreciate just how poorly those two things mesh.

I think a lot of confusion could be resolved by OPP making it clear, in bold letters, that Scion is no longer an American Gods game and has taken a completely different, The Wicked + The Divine kinda direction, but I suspect that this would result in many people pulling their pledges.

>>49503465
That sounds more like an issue the Storyteller would deal with, not be in the purview of the game's fluff or rules. Even the Ragnarok campaign was a "might be Ragnarok or might be a false start" scenario, because it was left up to the Storyteller to decide whether it was the real deal or not the party was contending with.

>>49503107
That's basically the same logic between Ishtar-Astarte-Aphrodite, except Aphrodite got given powers.

>>49503520
>Like many of the 1st edition's fuckups
I don't really see what was described in >>49503411 as a fuckup. SUre, it was executed badly, because interesting ideas poorly executed was what WW was all about, but there is nothing wrong with the basic idea.

If you don't like what they're offering, just don't pledge or pull your pledges. No ones forcing you to support something you don't like. I think this is pretty cool, but everyone's entitled to their own tastes and opinions.

>>49497472
It's not gay if you're a horse

>>49503895
It's not that people don't like Scion, it's that they used to like Scion and the new edition changed it beyond recognition. People justly feel like the company's squashed their favorite game and, whereas they promised to give it a much anticipated revival, instead decided to roll out a new one. It's D&D 4th edition syndrome, except that unlike D&D, Scion never received much support, meaning that if the one single company that made stuff for it decides they no longer want to (or that they're going to make stuff for something else), you will never have more Scion stuff again. For a while, they had hope this wasn't the case.

>>49504047
>>49504047
It really is the crushed hopes that matter the most. I think we've all already made our peace with the fact that we'll never get anymore Scion releases, but then the promise of a second edition rekindled them. Only to turn out to be a release for a completely different game (completely different mechanics, completely different setting, not even the same tone or atmosphere) using the Scion brand name.

>>49504078
Well you can't please everyone. I for one thought that Scion 1e was fucking atrocious, both in mechanics and in fluff, so I appreciate the breath of new life they're trying to give it.

>>49504181
If you hated it so much, what made you take a look at the new edition?

>>49504347
The shills' contracts requires them to always stand one-hundred percents behind OPP's every decision, even if it means retroactively changing their stances on discarded games.

>>49504359
Because I liked the concept, dipshit, just not the execution.

I dunno about differences between 1e fluff and 2e fluff but if they are planning on taking the myriad and considerable balance problems, and other mechanical weirdness in 1e and ironing that out, I'll give them my money.

As long as I get to play a Scion of Kalfu again, the Loa pantheon was my jam.

>>49504609
Lucky for you, that was the first stretch goal. They probably know how much people like that pantheon.

>>49504609
>I dunno about differences between 1e fluff and 2e fluff but if they are planning on taking the myriad and considerable balance problems, and other mechanical weirdness in 1e and ironing that out, I'll give them my money.

The original balance problems will go away, since they're using a new system. However, given that the new system appears like it's going to be a combination between Storyteller and Fate, which are both notorious for breaking into a million little pieces the moment a player gets creative, it's doubtful how much good this will do.

>As long as I get to play a Scion of Kalfu again, the Loa pantheon was my jam.

Loa will be in a later release. The 2 books currently being kickstarted include the Norse, Egyptian, Greek, Aztec, Japanese, Yoruba, Chinese, Indian, Irish and Algonquin pantheons.

>>49502078
God Damnit Garth Ennis sounds dumber every time I read something about him.

>>49504650
>However, given that the new system appears like it's going to be a combination between Storyteller and Fate, which are both notorious for breaking into a million little pieces the moment a player gets creative, it's doubtful how much good this will do.
At least Fate CAN, theoretically, work, assuming that the GM and players are all on the same page and agree not to specifically break the game. Scion 1st ed became pretty much unplayable the moment someone hit Legend 5, and wasn't particularly well thought out even before that (e.g. guns were made out by the fiction to be worthwhile weapons, with one of the pregens' signature weapons being a "powerful" gun. In practice, guns became useless against anything other than regular mortals around Legend 3-4, or lower with the right builds. On that note, the pregens were HORRENDOUSLY designed from a mechanical viewpoint).

>>49504683
And yet Preacher is actally pretty good.

>>49504683
Read Preacher and then realise youre a fucking tasteless cunt

>>49504705
>On that note, the pregens were HORRENDOUSLY designed from a mechanical viewpoint

There's a bad tendency for game designers nowadays to distance themselves from the mechanics in some misguided attempt to appear like they just "care so much more about the fluff". It's a rare person who, like Greg Stolze or Vincent Baker, takes the time and mental effort to really get into the nuts and bolts of the mechanics and truly UNDERSTAND what makes them tick. Incidentally, their games also tend out to be magnificently polished, run like fine clockwork, and be supremely easy to hack because they go as far as to include their detailed thoughts on the mechanical nuances for everyone to read.

Of course, the phenomenon itself isn't really new. Sometimes game designers are just innocently stupid or inattentive, to the point of designing mechanics without understanding their implications themselves. Just look at any official D&D release featuring the stats of supposedly massively powerful characters from the various game settings. Many of them are LAUGHABLY poorly designed, to the point of not even fitting within their own supposed role in the world. It's not uncommon to find characters who are technically, say, level 20 or above (which should make them equal in challenge to gods and world threatening monsters) but are so poorly built that a single beholder will wipe the floor them, not to mention a party of level 5 PCs and half a brain between them.

>>49504757
>Of course, the phenomenon itself isn't really new. Sometimes game designers are just innocently stupid or inattentive, to the point of designing mechanics without understanding their implications themselves. Just look at any official D&D release featuring the stats of supposedly massively powerful characters from the various game settings. Many of them are LAUGHABLY poorly designed, to the point of not even fitting within their own supposed role in the world. It's not uncommon to find characters who are technically, say, level 20 or above (which should make them equal in challenge to gods and world threatening monsters) but are so poorly built that a single beholder will wipe the floor them, not to mention a party of level 5 PCs and half a brain between them.

Which is to say, for our own purposes, just look at any Scion character or creature in the books that's supposed to be a combat challenge but doesn't have Epic Dexterity maximized. Like, say, Erik Donner, the signature party's supposed combat specialist who, at the peak of his divinity, will get his steroid ass kicked by any fast moving goblin and will never get to use his stupidly high Epic Strength because he'll never hit anything.

>>49502337
Then pull your fucking pledge. If you can't handle a setting that isn't just World of Darkness with gods instead of vampires and you hate the mechanics, then pull your pledge. I'm sure they'll have a hard time without your money, but something tells me they'll manage.

For fucks sake if you want no real setting other than "there's secret spooky Gods about!" you could just play that in any system.

>>49502363
>>49502340
>>49502527
Scion 2e takes place in a world that's like our own, but the Gods never went away. Shit, that was 1e's setting as well, they're just more defined about it in 2e. The Gods may not get involved in wars directly or anything, but they're still around, and people worship them. They're generally aware of their existence in some capacity. There are more people engaged in monotheistic religions, and the temples to Theoi and Netjer are likely to show up with the frequency of synagogues and churches and mosques.

There aren't unicorns waltzing down the street, and people would still freak out and be amazed if you rode yours through town. You as a character can gain worshipers, too. You can gain a fucking cult. Not a spooky cult that the news will warn about, but a traditional cult, where people dedicate their worship to you. You could do that in 1e, too, but it was treated more like the first because they just had to stick to the Masquerade pie. The World is a place that has had Scions forever. You're not some first generation thing. You're not in hiding. You're out there, doing badass shit. The only masquerade Scions and the Gods have is the need to be careful that they don't become Fatebound. That's it. That was true of 1e as well.

>If the setting is not previewed soon, and people believe they've pledged under false or deceptive presumptions, it will cause a lot of unnecessary discontent or even a backlash.
No, because most people like the changes, knew about them already, and also read before they give things their money.

>>49504802
>Then pull your fucking pledge. If you can't handle a setting that isn't just World of Darkness with gods instead of vampires and you hate the mechanics, then pull your pledge. I'm sure they'll have a hard time without your money, but something tells me they'll manage.

Already did. Enjoy Exalted with firearms.

>>49502751
No he's not. No one cares if he pledges. No one told him to pledge. If anything, he's being given the information he claims he never had. If he doesn't want to pledge, no one is forcing him. No one cares if he pledges.

>>49502714
>>49503520
>I'm only suggesting that OPP clearly preview the Scion setting so people can intelligently choose if they want to pledge.
This has already happened.
>I think a lot of confusion could be resolved by OPP making it clear, in bold letters, that Scion is no longer an American Gods game and has taken a completely different, The Wicked + The Divine kinda direction, but I suspect that this would result in many people pulling their pledges.
Everyone but you got the memo.
>>49503609
"Executed badly" is what "fuck up" means.

>>49504807
I enjoy the setting it's got going. I like it a lot, actually. I suspect most of the backers do, or they wouldn't have backed.
Though with you bitching that it's not enough like 1e, you'd think you'd want it to be Exalted with guns.
You're essentially getting pissy that it's trying to have it's own identity instead of being a blander copy of an existing game without working for it.

I don't want 1e Scion. I don't want the game to have those same stupid mistakes. I want a better game, a more interesting game.

>>49504802
The sheer ignorance required to assume that the world could look identifiable to us today if you'd made such a "tiny" change as PEOPLE KNOW THAT THE GODS ARE REAL boggles the mind. I'm talking "the entire history of the Middle East since the Iron Age, followed by the history of the Christian world, followed by all the history that followed would be different to the point of unrecognizability" Christianity would never, EVER have been born in this world. That alone would've turned over the history of the Roman Empire and all of Europe.

And no, saying "it doesn't need to make sense" doesn't actually make it so, it makes it clear that the designers were either lazy or stupid and that their world doesn't hold its own weight and operates on writers' fiat.

>>49504757
>It's a rare person who, like Greg Stolze or Vincent Baker, takes the time and mental effort to really get into the nuts and bolts of the mechanics and truly UNDERSTAND what makes them tick. Incidentally, their games also tend out to be magnificently polished, run like fine clockwork, and be supremely easy to hack because they go as far as to include their detailed thoughts on the mechanical nuances for everyone to read.
Also mechnics tend to work better with fluff of the game designer actually cares about the mechanics. I mean, it's kind of obvious, I guess, but making a game that actually facilitates the kinds of stories it's intended for requires considerable mechanical know-how.

>>49504867
>I want a better game, a more interesting game
Go play Over the Edge.

>>49504878
Of course, a setting with alteranative history that actually properly accounts for gods being real and present would also be cool. I don't trust the writers. I mean, I think the people working on Scion 2E are reasonably competent, but writing something like that requires more than reasonable competence.

>>49504867
Hey, you forgot to mention that you're naming your firstborn Onyx Path! Quick! Before your supervisors find out you're not shilling hard enough!

>>49504915
At the end of the day if your GM, theres nothing stopping you just using the 1st ed setting with the new rules.

>>49504867
>>>49504807 (You)
>I enjoy the setting it's got going. I like it a lot, actually. I suspect most of the backers do, or they wouldn't have backed.
>Though with you bitching that it's not enough like 1e, you'd think you'd want it to be Exalted with guns.
>You're essentially getting pissy that it's trying to have it's own identity instead of being a blander copy of an existing game without working for it.
Yes, because what's more interesting than a nonsense fueled setting running on random arbitration where any action is equally meaningless because nothing fits together anyway? It's just like Alice in Wonderland! That was a literary masterpiece, right?!

>>49502686
>>49502527
>>49502340
>>49503100
>The basic setting is definitely something that OPP should discuss or preview sooner rather than later.
>If the setting is not previewed soon, and people believe they've pledged under false or deceptive presumptions, it will cause a lot of unnecessary discontent or even a backlash.
>The issue is whether OPP is clearly previewing the setting so people can make an informed choice to pledge or not.
It's been previewed for over a fucking year, and clearly previewed on the Kickstarter page. The fucking video starts out with "the ancient powers never fully went away".
The people Pledging? They know what they're getting into. All the information is right there, stop acting like this was some sort of "trick".

>>49502848
Jesus Christ, stop being so stupid. Anon is being an idiot, and even if that was Jakki trying to suck OPP's dick like you assume she does, why do it with no trip? It's clearly not even a single person pointing out how stupid they're being.

>>49502811
Those are in the same genre of things, yes. The old Scion had not much going for it, and now it does. It's nowhere near as different as you're acting like in the first place.

>>49505035
Jakki decided to lay off using trips because anons were throwing hissy fits and getting into tracts of what board culture meant. So it could, in fact, be Jakki

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>>49503236
>>49503252
This isn't Anne Rice, it's Marvel and DC. Yes, everything turned out more or less the same, despite literal Gods existing. You'll just have to deal with that, because that's the way it's got to have worked. You either have a ridiculously powerful paper thin masquerade that prevents people from noticing literal deities fighting in the streets, or you have a world that ended up more or less the same as ours despite the fact that a man in a colourful costume literally punched Hitler in the face.

>>49503297
>>49503314
>>49504078
>>49504047
You didn't. Because you didn't pay any attention to what you were giving your money to. Scion was also always comic booky, it was just bad at it. Stop calling it false advertising just because you can't read. And acting like the game has somehow changed beyond recognition is even worse, since much like the nWoD change to 2e, it's basically the same setting presented better and with better focus and theming.

>>49504359
Everyone's a shill. You're a shill.
Jesus, I should have known that a thread dedicated to "this new cool thing is coming out let's get excited!" would end up nothing but garbage, because /tg/ hates fun. If you like fun, you're a shill. If you don't want to hear so much negativity for no reason, you're a shill.
I just want to talk about fucking Godgames.

>>49505143
>Jesus, I should have known that a thread dedicated to "this new cool thing is coming out let's get excited!" would end up nothing but garbage, because /tg/ hates fun. If you like fun, you're a shill. If you don't want to hear so much negativity for no reason, you're a shill.

You're both an idiot and a hypocrite.

>How ridiculous to assume that everyone who likes what I like is a shill!
>Everyone who doesn't like what I like is just a hater!

>>49504802
>I'm sure they'll have a hard time without your money, but something tells me they'll manage.

Yet they'll never make nearly as much money as the game kickstarted by one of the most hated figures in the RPG industry for an audience a quarter of the size of any of that of any of their IPs. Hooray for mediocrity!

>>49504757
Actually, it's mostly a few different things:
-- They don't want to make characters that are overpowered, so that when you go to make your own characters, you're not wishing you'd played the pregen instead
-- The pregen was created before the final version of the rules
-- Honestly, pregens don't get much attention
Sometimes they fuck up royally, though. In the Demon: the Descent quickstart, one character has a merit he's shit at and can't qualify for. And Harsk is infamous among my Pathfinder Society group for being the worst pregen.

>>49504878
I'm sorry that you can't handle the basic suspension of disbelief. I know, I get it, I can empathize. But I can accept that in the end, this setting's roll of the dice ended up close to ours, if not perfectly the same throughout history.

>>49504915
THAT would be a drastically different setting, and it wouldn't be modern because no matter what it would end up fantasy. So you'll just have to deal with a Marvel history where Captain America won WWII and the Nazis had their own superheroes for him to fight.

>>49504972
You're barely even making sense.

>>49505143
So are these guys the 'new' example band?

Slightly dissapointed Tommy Li isnt amoung them, I always ended up having show up in some way in my games, but that was mostly to subject the players to terrible Monkey puns.

>>49505176
>People visibly hating
>But they're not haters

>>49505244
There's a difference, which admittedly may be too nuanced for someone who thinks that Scion 1st edition was "World of Darkness with gods", between people having problems with what you like and being "haters".

>>49505228
>Honestly, pregens don't get much attention
Did you read the 1st edition books? One of the main problems with them was that half of each was dedicated to nothing but the pregens and their stories. They got more attention than the pregens of nearly any RPG ever made.

this series of escalating tantrums is hilarious

if you HONESTLY thought that 1e had some sort of Maquerade you must be seven kinds of stupid.

>>49505264
There are one or two anons literally going around saying they were lied to because they don't have basic literacy.
Not to mention the people going "shill! shill!" like the birds from Finding Nemo.

>>49505275
>They got more attention than the pregens of nearly any RPG ever made.
Because "for most RPGs, they don't put much thought into the pregens or how mechanically viable they are".

>>49505277
It did have SOME sort of masquerade, just not a good one.
I think Fatebinding is still a thing, though, so the Gods themselves can't walk down the street in full divine glory, or they'll have everyone fawning over them to the collapse of society.

>>49505277

Or actually paid attention to the book on their way to writing their zany comic book adventures. Everything from the introductory fiction (which goes to great lengths to show Erik Donner, himself a Scion, doesn't know anything about and doesn't believe in the existence of the mythological), to the Guide Birthright description specifically having to state that 2 dot guides "could also be one of the RARE individuals who is aware of the struggle between the Gods and the Titans" (page 158), to the mortal descriptions in the Antagonists section repeatedly emphasizing how strongly mortals will disbelieve any evidence of the supernatural ("they won’t see a child of Zeus preparing to slay a monster, but more likely just some thug high on PCP; "Other mortals might be peripherally aware of the Scions’ nature, but probably misunderstand it"", page 280), to the EXPLICIT MENTIONS that mortals are unable to see the true forms of a great number of monsters, which is the fucking definition of a masquerade. And that's from me just going over the first book with Ctrl+F.

I'm very sorry that the book was written with the assumption of being read by people with functioning brains. Sadly, nobody thought to print out in shiny letters a neon roadsign stating what's repeatedly emphasized throughout. They didn't think it'd be needed.

>>49505317
>There are one or two anons literally going around saying they were lied to because they don't have basic literacy.
Excuse me for foolishly assuming that the second edition of a game should resemble the first.

>>49505446
Look, we get it, you don't like that Scion 2e has less of a Masquerade. Cool, good for you. A lot of other people do like it.

>>49505492
It resembles the first edition enough to be a valid successor, unless you're so autistic that you demand that everything be exactly the same.

>>49505495
>SCION 1ST EDITION DIDN'T HAVE A MASQUERADE AND ANYONE WHO SAYS SO IS SEVEN KINDS OF IDIOTS
>gets cited proof that Scion 1st edition did, in fact, have a masquerade
>A-A-ANYWAY IF YOU DON'T LIKE THAT SCION 2 DOESN'T HAVE A MASQUERADE YOU'RE JUST A DOO-DOO HEAD!

No, anon. You are the stupid.

>>49505510
Right, because it has the same mech -
No, wait, it has the same ton -
Well, it resembles it because of the atmo -
I mean, the plot is exactly -

Uh, uh, they're both called Scion! And they feature gods! What more could you possibly want?!

>>49505527
Yeah, they're both called Scion, they both feature gods, and the player characters are descendants of those gods.

Surprise, that's good enough for me.

>>49494017
Whats the deal with there being two books to play at Hero level?

Too much rules or too much Lore for one book?

>>49505550
Not really surprising, you've proven more than well enough that you're an idiot. By the way, Battlestar Galactica and The Foundation series both feature humans interacting with robots in space, making them the exact same thing.

>>49505576
No because the people who made them didn't give them the same name. :^)

>>49505277
>A young Scion’s most common adversaries are likely to be mortals. She doesn’t yet have the power to flout mortal authority with impunity or even to reveal her holy might when, for example, a cop pulls her over for speeding. Show off your divine strength in front of the wrong people, and they won’t see a child of Zeus preparing to slay a monster, but more likely just some thug high on PCP. Security personnel guarding a private building or compound will not simply let a Scion inside just after hours because she claims a dragon is hiding on the premises. Other mortals might be peripherally aware of the Scions’ nature, but probably misunderstand it. A devout fundamentalist minister might consider divine Boons to be signs of demonic possession, while a greedy corporate overlord or a government agent might consider them to be signs of some mutation to be harnessed, either for profit or for national security. Of course, still other mortals might be well aware of what your character is, as they are actively in the service of the Gods or even the Titans. Such mortals might be cultists in the service of some strange religion or thralls who have been enslaved and empowered by the blood of a titanspawn.

>>49505492
If they changed nothing, there would be no need for it to be a second edition.

>>49505516
>Every poster in a thread besides myself is clearly the same person
And here we have a good example of why Anonymity is antithetical to a useful conversation.
I said that Scion 1e DID have *some* sort of masquerade. It wasn't a good one, and it added nothing to the game. I much prefer the way that 2e is done. It's more interesting to me. I don't want 10 or 20 or even 5 years of mythic heroes fighting Titans to feel the same as the game about secret back room dealings of Vampire conspiracies. I like a modern fantasy world where the fantastical exists without being overwhelming and overpowering. In fact, come to think of it, I usually hate "there is no masquerade" settings, but Scion 2e is the first time I've seen that where it feels more like a comic book world than walking into some Mos Eisley looking place and seeing a vampire, werewolf, mummy, alien, and robot having a drink together.

>>49505527
>>49505576
Enough of it is the same for everyone else. You're the odd man out. If you can't understand how similar they are and can only focus on the differences, that's your fault. Not everyone else's.

>>49505570
They're going back to the "here's the corebook, here are the splats" way of doing things that nWoD had. Frankly I much prefer "here's the basic rules and the splat, but you can buy a corebook for more detailed things" that CofD has been doing, but I can understand not wanting to make people rebuy the same rules over and over. Having no corebook is one of the reasons oWoD was a mechanical clusterfuck.

>>49505595
Like I said, no need to worry. I know and understand that you're an idiot. Further proof is redundant.

>>49505597
I like how they say this, yet Boys Will Be Boys literally is a get out of jail free card

Moving off topic for a moment, was there this kind of moaning and griping about lore and setting when oWoD lines moved to nWoD lines?

Since the lore changed a lot from those two things also, but most of the important bits were still somewhat the same.

>>49505606
>If they changed nothing, there would be no need for it to be a second edition.
Or they could, you know, polish the mechanics without having to tear half of them off and replace with Aspects. Or expand the game with more Pantheons. Or add additional, much needed storyteller advice. Or improve the art. Or adventures that are useful to someone who isn't using their own poorly constructed iconics. Or fixing the Birthright rules. Or adding more of everything.

There are quite a few ways of improving upon a flawed product without making it a different one in all but name. Look at V20.

>>49505651
Hell yes. Mostly because a lot of people didn't like the lore of NWoD (and still don't). Same with Exalted and literally every game with multiple editions ever.

>>49505651
Yes, and a great deal more of it, but you have to keep in mind that the old World of Darkness had a massively larger fanbase than Scion (it was the second most popular RPG in the world, and probably the only one besides D&D non geeks stood a chance of having heard about), so it's hard to measure the exact amount of anger by percentage.

>>49505664
Yeah but that's not the ONLY way to do things.

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>>49501920
>Now it merely describes the less-human gods
?

>>49505683
It is, however, the more immediately obvious one (people will naturally imagine an "improvement upon a concept" to be "more of the same/the same done better" rather than a radical departure from it), which I'm assuming is why many people took it for granted and didn't even bother to check stuff like the Kickstarter video.

>>49505651
Yes. Quite a lot.
I wouldn't even say they're still somewhat the same, since some of the lines are dramatically different. Werewolf even makes the good guys from Apocalypse into the bad guys of Forsaken.

>>49505664
There was no way to save the 1e system. it was utter garbage and I have never seen a single person say otherwise. V20 also changes the setting! No more of that "three days to Gehenna" nonsense!

It's nowhere near as different as you're making it out to be. Shit, to use an example from a few posts up, it's not even as different as Battlestar Galactica's reboot.

It's like the update to a comic series. You're not going to say that New 52 Batman is no longer Batman. For fucks sake Doctor Octopus was Spiderman for a while.

>>49505696
....I now want to know how to handle Lovecraft in Scion.

>>49501920
Actually, according to the old developers the Titans thing was decided upon when they realized one of the only common threads to basically every mythology ever which could be easily turned into a metaplot was the concept of the gods fighting against an older generation of gods. The Greek Titans are just the (literally) classical story everyone's familiar with, so that's what they called them.

>>49505713
It's NOT a radical departure, though.

>>49505731
I've heard it might be a future thing.

>>49505734
>one of the only common threads to basically every mythology ever which could be easily turned into a metaplot was the concept of the gods fighting against an older generation of gods.

So... Scion campaign where you're in open rebellion against your parents when?

>>49505718
>For fucks sake Doctor Octopus was Spiderman for a while.

....Wat?

I ran a Scion game a few months back and boy does it have problems.

Problems with 1e Scion:
DV only drops after Legend attacks
Armor and guns are literally useless
Speed 0 birthrights
Epic Dex is literally the best shit period
The entire birthright system
No improv casting for purviews
No improv weapon rules
No backgrounds at fucking all
Virtues are just god awful
Legend doesn't make any sense since it is supposed to increase with how well known you are
No balance at freaking all between groups
Everything about the WW2 pantheons
The Japanese pantheon stealing parts of the Chinese one
Aggravated damage is literally the most broken thing ever

There's a bunch others, but I had to do a lot of houserulings.

>>49505740
>It's NOT a radical departure, though.
Whether or not the supernatural is openly known about is the greatest, most extreme switch you can flip on an urban fantasy setting. Yeah, you can call "IT'S MAGIC I AIN'T GOTTA EXPLAIN SHIT" and say nothing changes except what's convenient to you, but it makes for an unbelievable setting that doesn't satisfy people. Even comics are getting on with the times: think about the most recent Marvel and DC movies - them representing the comics which are supposedly THE symbols of the wacky "everything goes" ultrapowered world which somehow manages to look recognizable. Man of Steel, Dawn of Justice, every Avengers film following the first one (Captain America 2 and 3, the Avengers 2, Ant Man, etc.) intensely deal with the world-shaking consequences of the existence of superheroes becoming publicized. It's just what people expect nowadays. I'm not even talking about earlier works, like Watchmen, which were specifically ABOUT the historical influence superheores could've had on the world (for a very good RPG treatment of the subject, see Greg Stolze's Wild Talents and specifically the setting book "Godlike").

>>49505794
Not to worry, from now on all you have to remember is Create Advantage followed by Overcome Obstacle. Invoking an Aspect is optional.

>>49505768
The 1st ed Hero campaign did have an optional section at the end where a player could use the maguffin to kill their parent and take their place.

So there is precedence for that.

>>49505801
>(for a very good RPG treatment of the subject, see Greg Stolze's Wild Talents and specifically the setting book "Godlike").
Or White Wolf's own game Aberrant. It's surprising how many superhero settings miss on the fact that with so many hyperintelligent folks running around, it's insane for technology not to be decades ahead of our own.

Now, don't get me wrong, I did like Aberrant. I just don't want any of it in my Scion.

Though given that this is the shape Storypath has taken so far, for all we know we might find out that the next addition of Aberrant has them existing in the shadows of society outside the view of humans.

>>49505801
It might be from YOUR point of view, but CLEARLY, a lot of people disagree with you. Your argument is well thought-out, but for every Watchmen, you're going to have "oh by the way, the supernatural exists, but history of human civilization up to this point happened more or less the way it did in real life".

And it's FINE. There's NOTHING wrong with that. Not every game needs to be a cerebral, contemplative examination of an alternate reality with ALL of its possible implications.

>>49505849
The point is that asking for believable fictional settings is no longer the purview of a few artsy-fartsy edgelords on the verge of comic culture. It's become mainstream. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for EVEN in a game which aims for a "comic book" style tone. I'm not asking for a cerebral examination of the implications of the burden of omnipotence set on the shoulders of fallible humans, I'm asking for more thought to be put into the setting. A masquerade renders the question moot in a far more believable way, especially when you have to make less arbitrary writing decisions to justify it magically as in 1st edition.

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So Im on board with the setting. No problem there.

But as a SYSTEM what differences does this have with Scion 1e?

Its been a while so its a little hazy and I kind of want to support but if its so similar that I may as well use the rules from the first Im not sure its worth it to me.

Pic unrelated

>>49505790
Superior Spider-Man.
Doc Ock transferred his mind into Peter Parker's body and had a moment of conscience and decided that he'd be a better Spider-Man, a SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN. (Peter died)
He basically became Tony Stark Spider-Man and got laid and does private security and decided that actively being involved in preventing all street level crime is not the way to be a hero. When Peter finally came back to life, he went back to listening to a police scanner and had his girlfriend point out to him that the other guy knew when to take time off and let the cops do their jobs.

>>49505801
Except that all those comic books still have the setting be the same as our own, barring changes. The movies aren't really a good example, either. We're talking about a setting where The World is in a place currently that is more or less equivalent to our world, except the Gods people believe in are different (and trust me, if you're from the South, you know there are already plenty of people who believe in God with even less proof of His existence).

Yes, they've been around for ages and influenced historical events, but after all of that, The World still looks like our world. Yes, it could have and likely would have turned out different, but in this particular instance, the modern incarnation is more or less what we've got here, barring a few minor differences. The HISTORY is different, yes, but all the threads have still come together to meet at a point that is similar enough to what we in the real world currently experience, because that is the easiest thing for players to grok. That they didn't choose to go with something wild and wacky isn't a failing on their part, that isn't what they want to explore, and Neall no doubt knows that something in an *actually* RADICALLY different setting would be less appealing to people.

Musicians thanking Apollo for their Grammies and baseball players thanking Thor for their home runs instead of Jesus isn't radically different.

>>49505918
If you can't be bothered to read the preview PDFs, I won't be bothered to give you a more specific answer. Suffice to say, there's a lot of differences which is a good thing because Scion 1e is shit and I hate it, but I don't have what I've seen of 2e so far.

>>49505731
I mean, Shub-Niggurath at least had the Dark Young, so theoretically Scions of the Great Old Ones are possible. They'd probably all be ridiculously fucked up and inhuman, but still.

Unless they're Titanspawn. Are those still a thing with this new #NotAllTitans angle they're doing?

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>>49505893
But you're wrong. Nevermind that the question of whether they are or aren't "realistic" is up for debate. I mean, Tony Stark has fucking virtual 3D gesture controlled technology, yet in Winter Soldier we see Black Widow and Captain America in a fucking Apple store and it looks pretty much what you'd expect an Apple store to look like.

>>49505918
>Its been a while so its a little hazy and I kind of want to support but if its so similar that I may as well use the rules from the first Im not sure its worth it to me.
You could always look at the many many previews that have been put out.
But it's incredibly different.

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>>49505992
>Invoking Apollo after a sweet guitar solo

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>>49506005
I don't really agree with some of these takes, and what the Gods think of modern stuff. I mean, why wouldn't Ares love drones?
I feel like Tony Stark, especially before he got captured by the Ten Rings, would be the perfect Scion of Mars.

>>49505949

The problem is that, when creating an alternate history, you cannot just ignore the domino effect. Even if we were to say "people know that the gods exist, but they never intervene", we'd still be running into major historical "plot holes".

Exempli gratia:

If gods can be verified to exist, monotheism in its recognizable form would never have come to (all monotheistic religions, since their inception, built their internal logic on the fact that god is imperceptible).

Without monotheism, you wouldn't have Christianity.

Without Christianity, the fall of the Roman Empire would've taken a completely different shape.

By that point, history has changed to the degree where it's pretty much impossible to even guess how it might look like. It's very possible that we may've never had a Renaissance, or Europe might've still been ruled by tribes.

All of this without the gods even having to DO anything. The mere fact of them being known is a change to history whose ramifications are inconceivably vast.

Going in the different direction and saying "history doesn't matter, whatever happened just happened to lead to the same end result" might work for a story, but for a game? A game requires the players to have degrees of knowledge of the game world a story doesn't require of its characters. They need to know, even if only in broad strokes, what kind of setting they're in so they can make intelligent guesses about how it works. It's impossible to imagine a history that might've led to the same result despite such changes, so the players are left attempting to roleplay characters in a historical vacuum, blind of the past. It's not the kind of thing you normally think of in a game, so it might look inconsequential - but that's just because we take it for granted. Imagine, for a moment, trying to play someone in the modern world without knowing whether, in that version thereof, the Allies won WWII - or if it even HAPPENED.

>>49506050
Drones are too impersonal.

But different Scions and Incarnations of the gods can absolutely have a different point of view.

>>49506075
Yeah well, Neall said in several interviews that monotheistic religions exist in Scion. They just do. What now h8r.

>>49506075
>If gods can be verified to exist
But the existence of the gods isn't common knowledge.
>you cannot just ignore the domino effect
Yes you can.

>>49494017
Oh sweet Lord Jesus not again...

>>49506050
>I mean, why wouldn't Ares love drones?
Ares hated the shit out of archers because he thought they were a coward's weapon. It's why the Spartans didn't tend to use them.

Mars would however love the shit out of any military equipment. Mars was less about war and slaughter and more about command and the military.

In all honesty, they should have just said that the Greeks evolved into their Roman persona's over time and that they bounce between the two now because people expect a Greek god to be a... well Greek god

>>49506097
>Yes you can.
You can also go play a different game, but that won't make the Scion setting any less retarded.

>Yeah well, Neall said in several interviews that monotheistic religions exist in Scion. They just do
He also said something about making it all nonoffensive and inclusive to everyone. I'd like to see him try without breaking the world's internal logic to molecules.

>>49506075
Except that they aren't really ignoring it. They're just saying that the way the dominoes fell still lead to where we are. Also, Christianity and such still exists. And you can still have the Roman Empire fall without Christianity.

Just because this bothers you doesn't mean it bothers everyone. This concern is yours, not mine.

>>49506097
It's common enough knowledge. People won't believe you if you say you're the son of Zeus, but they know Zeus is a thing. Just like even in the deep South people won't believe you if you say you're the son of God, and most of them believe in God.

>>49506128
>In all honesty, they should have just said that the Greeks evolved into their Roman persona's over time and that they bounce between the two now because people expect a Greek god to be a... well Greek god
That's essentially how the mantles work. This is why the Loa work the way they do.

>>49506134
Oh my God, just go to a different thread. No one here really seems to agree with you or care about what you're saying.

>>49506097
>But the existence of the gods isn't common knowledge.
Than the end result they're describing wouldn't have happened. Barring serious changes to history (whose ramifications we cannot predict, especially without knowing what they were) there was no real way for pagan religions to survive the rise of monotheism in the Western world. The two results are completely incompatible. Either pagan religions survived, or you get the Western world as we know it.

>>49506158
>Also, Christianity and such still exists
By fiat. He could've said that Canada was nuked during the 70's and half the population of Australia is made up of crab people, it'd have followed just as logically.

>>49503236
Some Emperors of Japan did claim to be decended from Amaterasu, so that much isn't made up.

>>49506162
Well it DID happen. That IS the basis for Scion 2e's setting. Pagan religions survived AND we have the Western world and we know it.

By fucking Jove, arguing with you is like arguing about not how gravity works, but IF it exists.

It already happened. That's the way the setting is written. Arguing about how it couldn't have happened that way is fucking pointless because it DID.

>>49506182
Yes absolutely. Glad you're catching on.

>>49505801
>but it makes for an unbelievable setting that doesn't satisfy people.
Odd since you seem to be the only one who cares

>>49506197
>like arguing about not how gravity works, but IF it exists.
Which is what everyday life is in a world ruled by writer's fiat. It's impossible to realistically roleplay in a world that isn't just unrealistic, but isn't BELIEVABLE, because logic was replaced by designer handwaves. Why should I assume anything about the world just because it makes sense, when sense had no part in creating it? Can I make a plan that relies on the existence of gravity? Why assume there is gravity? The writer's could've arbitrarily ruled that there isn't. Can my character be Russian? How could I know that Russia exists when it could've never existed as easily as someone writing that it didn't?

A world without basic sense - one in which cause doesn't lead to effect - is basically Lewis Carrol's Wonderland. It's a fascinating roleplaying experience, I'm sure, but it doesn't lead anywhere near where you'd like Scion.

This is why settings need internal consistency. So you wouldn't have to write your very own world's Encyclopedia Britannica to give to every player to read to make sense of it.

>>49506263
Alright you know what, fuck this and fuck you. You ARE literally the only person in this thread who doesn't get it. I'm gonna stop feeding you.

>>49506263
>Why should I assume anything about the world just because it makes sense, when sense had no part in creating it? Can I make a plan that relies on the existence of gravity? Why assume there is gravity? The writer's could've arbitrarily ruled that there isn't. Can my character be Russian? How could I know that Russia exists when it could've never existed as easily as someone writing that it didn't?
It's actually worse than that, because that's just dealing with comparative negatives. Why CAN'T your character be a Vulcan Jedi? What about a hobbit? Why can't you make a plan based on the assumption that water flows upwards and the human body is filled with cotton candy? Just because it doesn't make sense? The world doesn't make sense. Who knows where sense begins and ends? You have to make sure.

>>49506263
>It's impossible to realistically roleplay in a world that isn't just unrealistic, but isn't BELIEVABLE
Actually it's very easy. I'm not gonna argue that the setting is realistic or anything, but if you're not a super autist it's pretty easy to ignore.

>>49506248
>Odd since you seem to be the only one who cares

You don't understand. He just can't leave the thread and post in other topics. People are wrong but they don't seem to know it, and only he can enlighten the ignorant sheep.

God bless you, anon. I mean, God bless you if He can, but since this thread isn't internally consistent, it might as well be Alice in Wonderland penguin spork XDDD

Where'd I leave that quote from that author about kids being willing to accept make beleive things as make beleive but adults going on and on wanting to understand things like why the crab in the little mermaid can talk or who fills Batman's tires.

>>49506355
>who fills Batman's tires
Wouldn't Alfred do that?

>>49505918
Scion 1e: Basically Exalted 2e, with a different coat of paint.
Scion 2e: A mix of the Chronicles of Darkness system and FATE.

>>49506323

Realism is about obeying the laws of reality. Nobody expects a fantasy game to be realistic.

Believability is about obeying the laws of logic. All fictional settings which aren't experimentally nonsensical must maximize believability, regardless of the level of realism, because that's the only way for the human brain to be able to make the logical connections required to experience a story. A setting in which cause doesn't lead to effect, but rather to wherever the writer felt like at the moment, doesn't work on logic, meaning it's not applicable to it. For all you can know about a setting like that, having your character take a step forward is dangerous because the ground is lava.

>>49506355

Your quote is from C.S. Lewis, a man who also took pains to make his settings believable and internally consistent even as he turned them into allegorical Christian mythscapes. Great example.

>>49506248
There have been multiple people in this thread who have complained about the same thing. Well, at least two - I guess that it's theoretically possible that there's only myself and one other people on this side of the argument.

I can't believe people are literally defending creating worlds on the basis of "It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit." It's like the opposite of everything /tg/ ever stood for.

>>49506410
That makes at least you, myself, and the guy going about Alice in Wonderland.

>>49506325
>God bless you, anon. I mean, God bless you if He can, but since this thread isn't internally consistent, it might as well be Alice in Wonderland penguin spork XDDD
It must be depressing to be so stupid you can't even manage it ironically.

>>49506381
>All fictional settings which aren't experimentally nonsensical must maximize believability,
See now that's just plain old incorrect.

>>49506325
Jesus fucking Christ. Where should opinions about what we know so far about Scion 2E go if this thread isn't appropriate for them? It's not like some people are just indiscriminately shitting all over the game. People who liek some aspects of the game, or who liked some aspects of the previous edition, people who like the basic concept of Scion, people who are either fans or potential fans, are dissatisfied with the direction the setting is apparently taking. This is neither shitposting nor a smug attempt at "enlightening the ignorant sheep". This is people discussing Scion 2E.

>>49506433
No, it's such a basic assumption about writing that it just isn't touched upon except in order to analyze ways to subvert it as part of explorations of the philosophy of logic. It comes from whence also come such ideas as "a statement can be either true or false" and "every object is itself". They're the kind of logical building blocks that propel you straight into the depths of surreality the moment you step off.

>>49506461
There are clearly a lot of people in this thread who liked certain aspects of Scion 1st edition, or they wouldn't have been complaining so much about them being changed.

>>49506485
He agreed with you, you idiot. Or have you gotten to the point where you're just automatically objecting to anything anyone posts so you can see them react?

>>49506545
That's pretty much where the level of discourse has been at for the past few threads.

>>49506470
Fuck, guess I should have read the thread better. Didn't realize this was bait.
8.5/10 though pretty decent all around.

>>49506545
>>49506565
When you can count on everyone always objecting, it's always safe to respond with objections (this has been a strangely philosophical thread).

>>49506579
You forgot to add a ":^D" and a frog pic.

>>49506182
And?

>>49506162
It's not an either/or situation, you just can't see it as anything but that.

>>49506196
All. That's their schtick.

>>49506263
>Which is what everyday life is in a world ruled by writer's fiat.
Which is true of every fictional world. There's literally no reason people don't know about Vampires in the World of Darkness, but they don't. Global vampire conspiracy and there's never been one meaningful slip up in a billion years. No Neonate has ever broken the Masquerade in a massive way. No Hunter group has ever captured a vampire and showed off their powers, no Sabbat has ever just said "fuck this" and taken over a TV studio during a news broadcast.

When you're explicitly told the modern world is more or less the same, jumping to conclusions like "HOW CAN I KNOW RUSSIA EXISTS!?" is ridiculous. And I think that you know this. You know this but you're pretending you don't, because if you admitted it your flimsy argument would fall apart.

>>49506306
>why why why
You know damned well why, you're just acting like an idiot.
"If vampires exist, how do I know the moon isn't made of cheese!?"

>>49506381
That is not even remotely true. How things work is that you assume the world is like our own except where otherwise stated. You assume Russia exists because you're not told Russia doesn't exist.
I'm also pretty sure CS Lewis never wrote about Batman or the Little Mermaid.

>>49506414
Are you even reading the fucking thread? No one has said "it's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit". People have pointed out that the Anons complaining are making ridiculous assumptions and turning molehills into mountains. Half their complaints wouldn't even be solved by a Masquerade in the first place.
Nevermind that /tg/ constantly bitches if you try to explain your Magic's metaphysics.

>>49505813

That's Fate though...

You know I may be missing remembering but I recall some quote from a while ago, I think on a what we know thing about Trinity, that legend was going away but it's here in the sample characters. Was that ever meant to be a thing or am I just dumb.

>>49506461
Bad opinions go to >>>/trash/

The argument "the world would be radically different" doesn't mean anything. The argument that it's all author fiat doesn't mean anything.

Complaining that you don't like the setting because the supernatural is slightly more open is fine. Complaining that you can't be sure Russia exists because people pray to Aphrodite is stupid.

>>49506604
>CS Lewis
He arguably said the famous quote about how adults aren't concerned about been viewed as children, which I would think is what anon is confusing. But yeah, his Narnia is actually a good example. It's a very unrealistic world (like, the laws of physics aren't the same), but it usually tries to explain itself in terms of "reasoning", even if that reasoning is based on religious axioms, even when that's the case.

>>49506647
Maybe in the latter books. I'd say the earlier ones are actually an example of how to pull a good story with low believability. It's a concept with a lot of literary merit, it just doesn't make for a good campaign setting.

>>49506635
I also recall a quote about epic attributes not being a thing. Like super strong or super smart characters would still be around it just wouldn't be called epic strength or epic intelligence anymore

>>49503297
>Don't want to play in a wacky comicbook universe.

But thats first edition as well.

> Can hurl to the moon Jormungandr.
> Can toss a tree and ride it for flight.
> Can dodge bullets by dancing.
> Can take bullets and shrug while being shot,
> Can use a tree as a club.
> Can punch people through walls.
> Can become Elsa/Arthas.
> Can start random riots because you are bored.
> Can german suplex a Jotun.
> Can throw a baseball through people.
> Can make everyone around you dumber.
> Can seduce your way into anything.
> Can walk up surfaces.
> Can stand on a single strand of a teamates Hair.
> Can beat a villain to death by using another ally as a weapon.
> Ally takes no damage from being used as a bludgeoning weapon.

I'm sorry anons, but the masquerade goes out the door the second a player picks any ability that doesn't help you with seduction/research and even then if they buy epic attributes it goes out the window. It really made no sense in the first edition because players can hurl mobs into other states. People are going to know if Jormangundr crashes into another state, if a guy creates an ice castle, or tosses his car and then rides it like a magic carpet.
Not to mention the fact that the only way players were suppose to gain legend was by people worshiping/knowing of them.

> But anon now that scions are known wouldn't history change?
Why would it? Just because scions are on both sides of a war doesn't mean the war will change.
Even in first edition you had WW2 having scions on axis and allies. What happened? Allies still won.

>FALSE ADVERTISEMENT SCION SHOULDN'T BE CAMPY
Bra, a lot of the original super heros were based off of Demi-gods. Scion 1e was campy thanks to powers and lots of other things. If they keep even a quarter of the powers from 1st its gonna still be campy.

Can you be a Scion of two Gods?

I mean, can your parent be Persephone and Hades?

>>49507043
I don't actually see how either edition is campy.

>>49507071
>Can you be a Scion of two Gods?
>I mean, can your parent be Persephone and Hades?

I don't see why not. You'd probably count as Created rather than Born (either would make sense, I'm just making a gut call), and you'd still have to pick one to be your "primary" parent, but otherwise it works fine.

>>49507102
Why Created? I mean, I'm talking about them fucking.

I love the premise of Scion, but there are a lot of Gods where being the child of a one night stand with a mortal doesn't make sense, primarily with ugly gods (Haphestus), more devoted Gods and Goddesses (Hades and Persephone), or Goddesses who aren't into the whole "sex with a man" thing (Artemis, or to a lesser extent Hestia). I'm glad they're doing more for that in 2e than just "you can be adopted if your first parent gives you up for some reason", because it was also out of character for that whole adoption thing to happen.

>>49507071
If so, youd probably start of at God level, or at least Demigod.

>>49507175
>Why Created? I mean, I'm talking about them fucking.

Because I imagine Created will be written to accommodate characters who have no or only adoptive "mortal" roots, which makes sense for the child of two gods, whereas I figure the Born genesis will be written to accommodate characters who have one foot in the mortal and one foot in the divine (with Adopted/Chosen rounding things out with someone who was pure mortal until the divine stepped in).

>>49503297

There was a sidebar in 1e called "Scion, not Sci-ence!" you idiot.

>>49507071
Did you never read the page on tossing Jormangundr over national landmarks?

>>49507043
>It really made no sense in the first edition because players can hurl mobs into other states
Same as a vampire in the World of Darkness can punch a person through a concrete wall - but the moment they do that, they gonna get hunted down by the Camarilla. Sure, your Scion CAN pick up a building and throw it at someone, but the moment they do they're gonna get Fatebound to every single person in the city and they'll never see the end of it again.

>>49507254
Realism is not the same as believability, read the thread, stop pretending to be an idiot for the sake of the argument, etc.

>>49507436
Not fatebound in any meaningfull way, plus your suppose to do stuff like that since people need to know of you and your deeds to increase your legend.

>>49506355
The hunchbacked mute mechanic he keeps in the batcave of course.

>>49507436
The problem with 1st Edition was that Fatebinding, which was intended to serve as the main Masquerade equivalent in the sense of being the "primary incentive for characters not to go nuts/the in-setting explanation for why the gods aren't parading down main street" was mechanically worthless and more trouble than it's worth. If it did something actually serious, like lower your Legend pool or something (because a part of your legend has now been "taken up" by your connection to Previously Known As Random Bystander #345), it would've been easier to justify to players. Not saying it's a good idea but it's the most creative I've seen.

>>49507452
That's what you're doing, though.
Fiction isn't supposed to be real. Nothing about this version of Scion is incomprehensibly unrealistic to begin with. No more so than THE EXISTENCE OF DEITIES already is. Nevermind that >>49503297
>I don't think many of the people here pledged knowing that this was what they were getting into.
Most of the people who pledged know exactly what they're getting into, which is WHY they pledged. Most people think Scion 1e was a good core idea and terrible everything else. 2e fixes those problems. So people want to back it.

>>49507513
>>49507479
>>49507436
To elaborate, the intention was that a Scion's legend was equatable to "how many pages are dedicated to you in Fate's book". The higher your legend, the more space you get, meaning you get more space to do amazing things with, manifesting in higher traits. However, each Fateful bond you have also eats up space (you could say that, when your myths will be told, the storyteller will have to take time to talk about your Fateful bond to whoever the fuck it was), meaning less space for impressive things. If nothing else, I like this explanation because it approaches the very concept from a different, refreshing direction, rather than the old "the more people believe in you the more of a god you are". It ties Legend more to Fate itself than to what humans believe.

It's also a nice metaphor. If you have an hour to talk about Superman and are forced to spend ten minutes talking about his relation to Jimmy Olsen, those are ten minutes you won't spend talking about his powers.

>>49507513
I said it before, but personally I think that the simple fact that Scions and other supernaturals haven't been as common or active in the world for a long, long time as they are now is enough of a reason to explain why their existence isn't common knowledge, even without any special Masquerade mechanics.

>>49507555
>Fiction isn't supposed to be real. Nothing about this version of Scion is incomprehensibly unrealistic to begin with.
Why do you keep talking about realism when the other party is explicitly talking about something altogether different?

>>49507555
>Fiction isn't supposed to be real. Nothing about this version of Scion is incomprehensibly unrealistic to begin with.
You keep confusing realism with believability, even though my point was exactly about that issue. Nobody expects a story about the gods to obey the laws of physics, but it does have to obey the laws of logic.

http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/post/826028937/batman-the-least-believable-superhero

You can agree or disagree with the argument about DC comics but the essential claim made here involves a good explanation of the difference. Compared to Batman, Superman is less REALISTIC (his powers blatantly defy the laws of physics whereas Batman nominally just has good training) but since he reacts to situations in an internally consistent, logical way he ends up being more BELIEVABLE (compared to Batman, who's story, while not including any magic, asks us to believe that a normal person can be the smartest AND richest man in the world AND master of every martial art AND the best detective in the world AND that with all his intelligence and money he'll still decide that "Parents killed->Invest million in bat themed gadgets and go punch muggers in a rocket powered car" makes sense)

>>49507654
>I said it before, but personally I think that the simple fact that Scions and other supernaturals haven't been as common or active in the world for a long, long time as they are now is enough of a reason to explain why their existence isn't common knowledge, even without any special Masquerade mechanics.

I fully agree (it was the case in the 1st edition), but that doesn't sit with the degree of influence on culture and history. The World of Darkness was slightly different than our own world, being more Gothic and more Punk ("gargoyles on the skyscrapers" and white makeup never went out of fashion), but there's a very large difference between the assumption that "cults to the Greek gods have LINGERED throughout the ages" and "their cults are millions strong and there are temples to Apollo right next to the churches".

Try imagining the skyline of London in our own world, the old World of Darkness and this version of the Scion setting. There WILL Be differences between the first two pictures, but you'll have to look closely to find them (they'll be in the shade, or you'll have to look with a spyglass to spot the slightly different architectural influences on some of the older buildings). In the world of Scion, you'll have a big Doric temple sitting in place of the Big Ben. You'll be looking at what is clearly an alternate history, and that's definitely not everyone's cup of tea, especially if they were looking for a more relatable setting.

>>49507574
So you should take the time out of your day to murder everyone you fatebind?

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>>49507700
>dresdencodak
>Tumblr

Jesus fucking christ, at least you gave it a line to itself so it draws the eyes and we don't need to read your post at all.
Jesus fucking christ, what is wrong with you.

>>49507850
If you know anything at all about mythology, you will know that once a person has entered your story murdering them is probably the worst thing you could do. Their being introduced means they have dramatic weight, meaning your murder of them would turn out (retroactively, in this case, since Fatebindings are all about changing your story before it's even happened) to be meaningful and probably have tragic consequences.

>>49507867
Now I'm confused. I thought the reactionary retards upset about gays being a thing were generally on the anti-2nd edition side?

>>49507574
Fuck you, Jimmy is cool.

Also 2e fatebinding is different and has a bit more bite but the specific role it plays in making the very real gods become myth is that it is a way that their identity is fundamentally changed that they don't get a say in.

>>49507700
>>49507654
Considering the flow of the conversation, the person bitching is also the one who said all fiction strives to be as realistic as possible.

Your argument is ultimately that you can't suspend your disbelief to accept that Gods existing hasn't resulted in a radically different world. That is completely on you. Just as I can enjoy Arkham City despite the ridiculousness of it's core premise on top of the way that Batman has hundreds of gadges crammed into body snug military grade rubber, I can enjoy Scion even if Hitler was a demigod and punched out by American demigods and yet that hasn't resulted in a drastically different universe.

I mean, in both the MCU and DCU demigods fought in WWII.

>>49507834
It's basically like watching a Marvel or DC movie, or even opening a comic book. The Baxter Building or Stark Tower being on the skyline doesn't change the whole of history. Captain America's existence doesn't mean that the world is a unrecognizable place.

Hell, in the Tarantino universe, Django murdering everyone at Candieland and Hitler being gunned down and exploded in a cinema hasn't radically altered the world.

>>49507867
It's not wrong. He's just using it wrong.
Hating tumblr just to hate tumblr is dumb.
(Hating Dresden Codak just to hate it is dumb, but less dumb).

>>49507700
>compared to Batman, who's story, while not including any magic

Batman has a story that involves magic though. Lots of his enemies and buddies and other people have magic.
Look at Batman Beyond, where he brushes off the "hauntings" at a school, not because he doesn't believe in ghosts but because he knows about real ghosts and that shit is just juvenile.

Batman beyond was pretty good shit really.

>>49507874
So then you certainly should murder them to make things more interesting, giving you mondo fate points.

I like how this is going. a Godling that purposefully binds himself to nameless schmos and then murders them to make his personal legend more "Gritty, edgy, dark" to try and raise spiritual sales to increase his legend faster.

>>49507874
The easiest way to understand Fateful Bonds is to assume that from Fates viewpoint, all the stories have already happened, and the Bonds represent it making edits.

Your story was always a simple tale of how you entered the town and killed the dragon. It was always intended to be a heroic adventure story.

[you end up getting a Fateful Bond with a bystander]

Your story has now always been about you entering the town thinking you were going to kill the dragon, only to find out that the dragon only there because it was in love with that one woman you've also fallen in love with. It was always intended to be a romantic story.

>>49507887
I fear you need to reexamine your life and the lies you tell yourself to make it simpler if one post can cause such a crack in the paradigm you hold.

>>49507902
I think he means Batman doesn't have magic. And that's true.

Everything he says there is true. Batman is pretty fucking ridiculous and it strains credulity that he does what he does. I can't experience a Batman property without thinking about how much Batman would be more interesting if his wealth and equipment were more reasonable and realistic instead of the ability to buy whatever the fuck he wants, brand it with bat logos, and somehow still be secret.

The problem is that Anon is bitching that this means he can't enjoy Batman, or in this case Scion, or that these things make Batman/Scion objectively bad. And the fact that he's using that Dresden Codak article as 'proof' of his point is sort of stupid, especially considering it literally starts out with:
>Disclaimer: I like Batman. I think he’s a fun character. This post is just a very, very silly rant about the perception that Batman is the most grounded or believable superhero possible.

Scion 2e is like Batman (it really isn't, but let's for a moment pretend that it is). Just because it's "unbelievable" that the World somehow ends up more or less like our own doesn't make it bad.

>>49507923
>Scion of Rob Leifeld.
My Relic is pouches

>>49507897
>It's basically like watching a Marvel or DC movie, or even opening a comic book. The Baxter Building or Stark Tower being on the skyline doesn't change the whole of history. Captain America's existence doesn't mean that the world is a unrecognizable place.

Read >>49505801

Comics (or at least comic based films, which are more mainstream) are now at the phase where the deeper influences ARE explored. Marvel only got into it pretty recently, but you can already see that the latest films are all about how superheroes are a major consideration by military and political powers, nations rise and fall based on the actions of villains, alien invasions mold the public consciousness and entire cities will never recover from the damage caused by superhero fights. Or to use the Watchmen example, you can't just say "a superhero was involved in Vietnam". You end up having to explore that line of logic to where it ends, which is "because there was a superhero involved in Vietnam, America handily won, conquering Vietnam in the process, meaning the current government never fell, meaning its relations with the USSR worsened, almost leading to a global thermonuclear war".

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>>49507867
Look, Desden Codak may be an irredeemable pile of shit, tumblr may be a terminally ill and awful website and Diaz may be a truly pathetic, hypocritical and mentally ill freak but..

You know, I don't know where I'm going with this.

>>49507979
I could read a book about the World. Playing a roleplaying game, however, requires one to go deeper. It means having to relate to a character on a more intimate level, and just like it's pretty much impossible to properly relate to Batman (his actions can be analyzed on an intellectual level, which is what the better Batman comics are about, but they can be truly sympathized with like Superman's action sin his own best comics), it is very hard to relate to a world the course of whose history was shaped by such a massive degree of "it happened because".

>>49508055
To clarify: all alternate history is grounded in ultimately arbitrary changes, but these are usually a hell of a lot smaller than "paganism never died" and ironically, their influences are usually presented as being a lot larger. Alternate history teaches you to think about why the world would look barely recognizable because the South won the American Civil War (because in that timeline, a particularly hard famine hit Virginia that year). It takes an enormous amount of suspension of disbelief to be able to take a concept like "paganism never died, and it had no influence in the long run".

>>49508033
Yet that particular blog post is well thought out, clear, and relevant to the discussion. We've already gone over this last thread: you can dislike a person without automatically dismissing everything they've ever touched as absolute garbage. This is, in fact, how intelligent people act.

>>49508012
Except you're wrong.
All of those worlds? At the basic level are still our world. Again, within the settings of these movies, there have been superpowered people and amazing things going on since at the very least WWII, yet the world is still our world. The comics have had things different for even longer, but no one bitches about that.

I get your complaint, I really do. But that you are completely unable to reconcile the minor narrative fiat that the current world of the game is more or less the same as our own--the fact that you, or someone else making the same complaints, seemed to think the existence of Russia is somehow an uncertainty simply because Caesar claimed to be a Scion of Aphrodite and people will thank Apollo for their Grammy--is all on you. It's your problem. I think that a radically different world, one where it's more than product marketing or which religious buildings you might find, would be interesting. But I also know that THAT would be a much more radical departure from Scion 1e, and a much different game. I'm not as interested in playing that game here.

>>49508055
I disagree, and think that you're getting hung up over something minor that doesn't really matter. Most of the posts complaining here also seem to be exaggerating just how different the World is from our world. It's not even "it happened because".
There are plenty of people who want to play RPGs in the Marvel world and don't get hung up on "but if Latveria exists I don't know what could happen, anything could be real, Russia could be destroyed".

>>49508033
You are literally on 4chan. It is an irredeemable pile of shit and a terminally ill awful website filled with truly pathetic, hypocritical and mentally ill freaks. I've been on this garbage fire of a site for over a fucking decade and the fact that it still throws stones will never cease to amaze me. If you're going to hate a site, at least hate something like Funnyjunk or Photobucket.

>>49508119
In a sense, it takes MORE suspension of disbelief than an inherently unrealistic idea like "the gods exist". That idea doesn't have to sit well with logic. History, however, can't really get around it.

>>49508149
>you can dislike a person without automatically dismissing everything they've ever touched as absolute garbage.

But you shouldn't. This is one of the penalties for being a fucking piece of shit. They deserve to be scorned and shamed without pity or remorse.

>>49508180
>Don't hate this website I like!
>Hate on these other websites I don't like!

Shit nigger you're fucking crazy.

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>>49508119
The thing is that they don't want to present an alternate history fan fic. This isn't For Want of a Nail. This is Marvel Comics. The argument "the world would look different, I can't enjoy this game because of that" is basically saying that you think they should make the game something they don't want to make it. It isn't about the alternate history, it's about the minor differences of the present.
It's like the rubber band theory of time travel. You go back and change the past, but the present you arrive in is smoothed out and those changes were replaced by something equivalent. Instead of Adolf Hitler there was Randolph Schmidtler.

>>49508149
>This is, in fact, how intelligent people act.
Pic related

>>49508119
Does it actually say that paganism never died out? Couldn't it have survived as small numbers of cults through the middle ages, just to blossom back to small established religions in the modern age?

>>49508287
Marvel Comics are shit though.

>>49508180

You keep insisting on looking at cultural differences in a void in which they can't exist. There is no way to justify a situation where people would "thank Apollo for their grammy" without imagining a drastically different route for Western civilization to take, and in order to do that you either have to write a complete, detailed alternate history explaining what else changed (which would be fascinating, but I doubt OPP would bother with), or just use the writer's nuclear option of "because I said so", which carries the cost of putting the rest of your setting's internal logic in jeopardy.

You'll find that the comics who largely ignored that kind of thing yet insisted on focusing on what should be the logical ramifications also tended to be the ones nobody could take seriously. Latveria exists primarily in relation to the Fantastic Four, on the relatively lighthearted and nonsensical side of the Marvel universe.

A better example would be Wakanda. It existed in secret for a long time and even after becoming "common knowledge" hasn't influenced the setting to the degree one should think it would - but only so long as you don't focus on it. If you're writing a Black Panther comic, you bet your ass you're going to have to think about Wakanda's relations with its neighbors, why it doesn't share its technology with the rest of the world (shaping its own history and culture in the process), etc.

I will also, once again, direct you to the MCU, which seems to have put a lot more focus on that. Judging by Civil War, I wouldn't be surprised if Wakanda's global influence will become a lot more relevant soon.

>>49508287
>Everyone here is a retard
>except me!

>>49508277
I don't like or dislike Tumblr. In fact, the only reason I have a tumblr myself is because Blagsplat is spam filtered on 4chan.
But Funnyjunk and Photobucket are bad websites on a physical level. Even if Funnyjunk weren't a more garbage version of the Imgur community, the site itself is gross and ugly and badly designed. And Photobucket will actually fuck up my browser for some reason, on top of being a badly designed image hosting website.

"I only ever see people who's politics I don't agree with, really short gifs, obsessive fandoms, and stoner humour" isn't a reason to hate Tumblr (especially if you're on 4chan).

>>49508336
Tumblr is a crap image hosting site though with downsized, filthy gifs and the like. It's bad for that at the technical level even before you get to communities that think that you're a bad person for not letting someone with HIV fuck you.

>>49508301
>Does it actually say that paganism never died out? Couldn't it have survived as small numbers of cults through the middle ages, just to blossom back to small established religions in the modern age?
See, if this was the extent of it, I could definitely accept it (the only difference on the surface is "there was a recent popular resurgence in neo-paganism) but this isn't what's being implied. Trolls are implied to have been a major risk to Norwegians until recently. Individual cults of the Greek gods are "millions strong". The Emperor of Japan exercises his define powers. This doesn't strike me as a world that could possibly look similar to our own. It's just ridiculous. Can you imagine how much our world would change today if someone discovered magic is actually real? Now multiply that degree by as far back in history the change goes (in our case, all of it) and it's headache inducing to even start thinking about all the implications. And sure, you can ignore them - but then, you're not taking your own setting seriously, and I don't think you want to do that when roleplaying (unless you want your Scion game to feel more like Toon or Paranoia).

>>49503520
I hate The Wicked + The Divine, too much fag stuff.

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>>49508365
Yeah yeah, all I hear is white tears from someone mad that the new squirrel girl was a realized person.

>>49508315
>There is no way to justify a situation where people would "thank Apollo for their grammy" without imagining a drastically different route for Western civilization to take
Yes there is. You just choose not to.
That's ultimately what this boils down to. You're also wrong. Latveria exists outside of only the Fantastic Four, and the Fantastic Four are not the nonsensical lighthearted side of the Marvel Universe. Doom himself was at the center of one of the recent major crossover events.
In fact, there's quite a lot of Marvel work that focuses on the political affiliations and manipulations of places like Latveria and Wakanda and other fictional places. Marvel is a world where superpowered beings have existed for quite some time, but the ultimate outcome of civilization looks more or less like our own world. Even in the MCU there's been about 50 years of superheroes and yet the world looks the same as our own, barring buildings like the Triskelion or Stark Tower. The Marvel Universe has had a rich in-setting history of global events and magical beings, but the world isn't radically different from our own. That's Scion 2e. And Scion 2e isn't even anywhere near as dramatically different than our own world as the Marvel comics are.

If you want to argue that, "logically" it would have all turned out drastically different, sure, I'll agree with you.
But I don't think it's completely unfathomable for it to have turned out the same with slight differences.
And I definitely won't agree with you that it's at all some big deal. It may be a dealbreaker for you, but for me I like it and don't give a shit.

>>49508397
And before you go "but it's rare":

1. It doesn't matter. I assure you, even if it was discovered today that there's only one man in the world who can do actual, real, genuine supernatural magic, and even if that magic wasn't particular impressive, that fact alone would've been enough to cause massive, rippling changes on a global scale. Religions would rise and fall. Wars may start. Scientists would be jumping off the rooftops in masses. People will begin questioning the most basic aspects of reality.

If it turned out that there a thousand people with magic all over the world? Pretty much Terra Incognita by that point. The future becomes impossible to determine.

>>49508462
>Scientists would be jumping off the rooftops in masses

No they wouldn't, they'd line up to study him as hard as they fucking could.

>>49508497
Whatever. It would still result in a massive change.

(and that's just magic, not something far more culturally charged, like the existence of gods. Imagine the reaction of just the Islamic world if there was suddenly irrefutable proof that the pagans were right. We'd be looking at WWIII at minimum).

>>49508423
>Galactus bitching about English
Oh God Squirrel Girl's art is so weird and dumb and cartoony but that is just too cute. Is that a squirrel in a space suit?

>>49508365
>It's bad for that at the technical level even before you get to communities that think that you're a bad person for not letting someone with HIV fuck you.
You realize that next door over on /r9k/ they think being called a creep should be illegal and that rape is a-okay, and over on /pol/ they want to kill the jews? You have zero room to complain. At least on Tumblr it's a free for all where anyone can say or do what they want and make personal blogs.

>>49508462
Here's the thing, though: It doesn't matter.
You can freak out about how the setting should be so much different, but it doesn't matter. It wouldn't even matter if there was a full Masquerade in effect.
If vampires exist, how hasn't one been revealed in the last thousand years? One slips up or gets pissed and suddenly the vampires are all out there in the open!
Yet you're not bitching about World of Darkness, you're complaining that Scion is set up the way that it is. Hell, that was true even in Scion 1e. Instead of straining credulity that Gods exist but the world is more or less the same, you have to strain credulity that Gods exist IN SECRET and yet that secret has never been broken even in a thousand years.
Do you know the best way for three people to keep a secret? For two of them to be dead.
Yet somehow you find it more reasonable that a secret conspiracy of Gods has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years?

>>49508444
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReedRichardsIsUseless

>>49494017
>There will be over 20 pantheons in the game by the God Book.

Hell, keeping track of the politics I and the players created between the 8~9 I used as GM was hard enough.

>>49508561
I'm aware. But that doesn't mean that the Marvel universe is somehow unenjoyable simply because the superheroes don't majorly change the status quo of real life.

>>49508397
>Trolls are implied to have been a major risk to Norwegians until recently.
They were banished by the spread of Christianity. I assumed the troll reserves are just normal parks to the public, and only people in the know about the supernatural are aware of the trolls being kept in there.

>Individual cults of the Greek gods are "millions strong".
So the neo-pagan revival happened a little earlier. That's still millions spread out across all of Europe and America. Instead of Scientology and the Ralians, Scion has the Eulusian Mysteries, except bolstered by having real divine power subtly backing it up.

>The Emperor of Japan exercises his define powers.
Real life Shinto already believes this. Only difference is that his blessings actually do something now (but presumably so subtly that people can't prove it).

>Can you imagine how much our world would change today if someone discovered magic is actually real? Now multiply that degree by as far back in history the change goes (in our case, all of it) and it's headache inducing to even start thinking about all the implications. And sure, you can ignore them - but then, you're not taking your own setting seriously, and I don't think you want to do that when roleplaying (unless you want your Scion game to feel more like Toon or Paranoia).
No different than any other member of the genre. No single vampire ever slips up and gets exposed on national TV. The ancient vampires never took control of their home nations and instituted a culturally accepted practice of immortality for kings. It's the same thing.

>>49508564
You don't need to use all of them at once in one game.

>>49508560
Everyone can say what they like on 4chan too, as long as it isn't ultra and immediately illegal.

And people are free to disagree with those views, especially if they are retarded.

>>49508561
>Linking to TVtropes

Jesus fucking christ what is wrong with people in this thread.

What happened to you, /tg/.

>>49508560
>If vampires exist, how hasn't one been revealed in the last thousand years? One slips up or gets pissed and suddenly the vampires are all out there in the open! Yet you're not bitching about World of Darkness, you're complaining that Scion is set up the way that it is. Hell, that was true even in Scion 1e.

The Old World of Darkness imploded because the writers struggled to justify too much of everything using all-powerful conspiracies, following through with this logically until nothing could've happened in human history without three contradictory supernatural elements. The game choked to death on its own metaplot. Vampire: The Requiem is a far better example of how this is done right. It made the Masquerade believable by changing the magnitude of the conspiracies involved AND the vampires that composed them (no more truly godlike vampires, but conversely, no Camarilla pulling the strings behind every war in history). It also wisely distanced itself from the Cain myth in order to avoid having to make sense of the Judeo-Christians being right, alongside with everyone else.

>Instead of straining credulity that Gods exist but the world is more or less the same, you have to strain credulity that Gods exist IN SECRET and yet that secret has never been broken even in a thousand years. Do you know the best way for three people to keep a secret? For two of them to be dead. Yet somehow you find it more reasonable that a secret conspiracy of Gods has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years?

Both strain credibility, but the idea that magical factors (unrealistic, but believable within the context of the setting) made it so that nobody ever found out about the gods easier to suspend disbelief in relation to than "everyone always knew about the gods [something which should have far reaching effects on every aspect of human civilization ever], and the world remained basically the same".

>>49508560
>Defending that Squirrel girl shit comic

>>49508651
I'll have you know tvtropes and tumblr are both staples of /wodg/

>>49508678
That doesn't make it right. It doesn't.

I've been gone too long.

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>>49508678
>Generals
It all makes sense now.

>>49508695
Oh yeah? What are you going to do about it shitlord?

You assholes are gonna have an easier time comparing Scion to the WoD if you stop insisting on using the goddamn Masquerade (the term "Masquerade" used in fictional discussion refers to the concept of the supernatural world being hidden from the public, not to the actual vampire Masquerade) and start thinking more along the lines of the Delirium from Werewolf: The Apocalypse or Disbelief from Mage.

Scion's first edition books implied that mortals without a connection to Fate are MAGICALLY INCAPABLE of noticing the supernatural. Presumably, if a Scion goes and wrecks the town fighting frost giants, everyone remembers it being destroyed in a blizzard.

Does it make sense? Not really. Was it poorly explained? Very much. But if you're already going to accept the fact that magic exists, it isn't all that much more of a stretch of the suspension of disbelief to assume it might also be magically forgettable.

>>49508775
My interpretation (based on the fiction) was also that Fate somehow ensures that mythical events never happen in a way that could be made public, e.g. all of Erik's adventures were either plausibly deniable or happened away from mortal eyes, other adventures always happen in Terra Incgonitae or the Overworld/Underworld, etc.

But that's easier to write about when you have a story in mind than to assure would actually happen when you have to deal with shithead players who just want to throw cars everywhere they go.

I'm going to sleep now, please keep the argument running until I return. I hate it when arguments end without me and I feel like I my contribution could've changed the result.

>>49504887

It took a lot of mechanical know how to even realize, "hey, these games aren't really doing what they say they are", so the stereotype of so-called "story game" designers being mostly flitty artsy types who can't into math never really made sense to me.

>>49508835
It can't and won't. No argument on 4chan or anywhere actually changed anyone's mind.

>>49508643
You'd need to go to 4+4chan to make your own boards, and that site has it's own problems. Like being delisted from Google for rampant child porn.

>>49508594
It's not a revival if it never went away. Caesar being an open Scion of Venus doesn't change his campaign against the Gauls. Scions and Gods meddling in the World Wars doesn't change their outcomes.

>>49508695
>>49508651
I'll link them both just to piss you off and be contrarian.

>>49508654
I like Requiem more than Masquerade, but that doesn't mean there's any less bending over backwards to justify the continued existence OF a Masquerade to begin with.

>>49508672
I've never even read it, but see above about contrarianism. I have however heard that it's great and only whiny little manbabies seem to hate it.

>>49508775
>You assholes are gonna have an easier time comparing Scion to the WoD if you stop insisting on using the goddamn Masquerade (the term "Masquerade" used in fictional discussion refers to the concept of the supernatural world being hidden from the public, not to the actual vampire Masquerade) and start thinking more along the lines of the Delirium from Werewolf: The Apocalypse or Disbelief from Mage.
We know what the term masquerade means, which is how we've been using it. Delirium is no less ridiculous a concept, Anon.

The difference here is that most of the thread likes the barely there masquerade of Scion 2e and is accepting of the fact that the world turned out the same, as opposed to "people are completely incapable of any sort of rational thinking in regards to magic for no real reason" of Scion 1e.

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>>49508914
>I have however heard that it's great and only whiny little manbabies seem to hate it.

As a tumblrfag, a nigger like you would probably like it. It is however objectively crap, with bad writing coming second to the truly, truly awful art. So bad you can't even tell what gender people are, with people only averting being off model because the art is so bad there is no "on-model". It is beyond crap.

>>49508914
>barely there masquerade
A barely there Masquerade is Vampire: Bloodlines where Los Angeles is made up of Gothic skyscrapers and the blood bank gets any work outside of traffic collisions. A world where the gods are known to have really existed, at any point in history, much less that they already do, goes way beyond that (not just believed to have existed, mind you - known for a fact to have). That'd be the equivalent of the series True Blood, or the latter Kitty Norville novels.

>>49508678
So are pedophile trannies but that doesn't make them good.

>>49508914
>I have however heard that it's great and only whiny little manbabies seem to hate it.

A tumblrfag like you would. pretending to like things for brownie points with no eye for quality.

>>49508991
Except that it's not really that much of a known fact. there's even an NPC trait where they're hard atheists.

>>49508987
>>49509018
Wow, such whine. The poster talking about white tears was right.
>brownie points
>MUH VIRTUE SIGNALLING!
I love how you signal your virtue by saying that.

>>49508991
I would say that it would be more like the world of Suzanna Clark's "Johnathan Strange & Mr. Norrel" except 300 years later and with gods instead of fairies, but the fact that culture in the modern world works differently than it did in Georgian England makes me skeptical that it could remain recognizable for long.

>>49508560
There's nothing wrong with people on /pol/ wanting to kill "the jews" as you anti-semitically put it. You're clearly just Islamophobic.

>>49509049
>White tears
...Semen?

>>49509049
>Wow, such whine. The poster talking about white tears was right.
Are you seriously defending art such as
>>49508987
as good? Comics are a visual medium.

>>49509049
I'm not signalling my virtue my little tumbrina, I'm merely correcting your bizarre defense of something irredeemably shit.

>>49502383
I like to think that Jesus is just another Buddha. There's been multiple ones.

>>49509049
>>>/pol/
Racism is against the rules.

>>49509056
While that sounds good on paper, at the moment everyone seems to have a different idea on how exactly the Scion 2 setting works, and given that OPP has insisted thus far on only describing it in the most ambiguous, wildly interpretative terms possible makes it hard to determine.

JS&MN takes place in a world where fairies are KNOWN to have existed, are KNOWN to have had a major influence on history (Scotland belonged to them), did NOT shape it into unrecognizability (they never really left it) and are either not known to STILL exist or only vaguely acknowledged to. Like you said, though: those were different times. People back then could be skeptical about the existence of China, while at the same time believing with absolute certainty in the factual existence of eternal damnation for sinners. Furthermore: even if you encountered fairies somewhere distant from civilization, you could never really prove it to anyone and the story wouldn't get far anyway.

In our world? The moment someone uploads a fire giant to youtube, it's all over. You get the Unmasqued World and the setting is once again unreconizable. Which brings up the same question everyone directs at the World of Darkness: how come this whole time nobody ever videod a fire giant and uploaded it to youtube?

The setting asks us to believe, on the one hand, that the fact that gods are known to have existed has influenced culture while on the same time believe that it had a small enough influence that "most people don't really acknowledge it".

>>49509056
>>49509180
Also, keep in mind that Johnathan Strange & Mr. Norrel is very much an alternate history fantasy book, and is seen as such. Its depiction of Georgian England is way more different from our own timeline's than Marvel's WWII was from ours.

So you haven't actually solved any argument.

>>49509136
Seriously?

>>49509180
>The moment someone uploads a fire giant to youtube, it's all over. You get the Unmasqued World and the setting is once again unreconizable

Nah man. That's like saying the first time a roman saw an elephant at when fighting hannibal the world was unrecognizable.

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>>49509260
> Cameras record giant snake flying through the air.
> Serpent crashes into Empire state building and several other buildings.
> Serpent still lives, starts trying to dig into ground.
> Serpent becomes completely encased in ice along with most of NY.
> 4 Random people walk up and pick up the snake and walk through a portal in the middle of newyork.
> Millions dead.

Totally global warming and a mutated snake like Yawn.

>>49509422
>No, it was just An airplane that hit those towers goy!
>No giant snake demons here!

Fucking Scions.

>>49509474
You forget the Liquid nitrate sprinklers in all the buildings exploding in a chain reaction, freezing most of new york.

>>49509180
>insisted thus far on only describing it in the most ambiguous, wildly interpretative terms possible makes it hard to determine.
You mean "given groups a setting to work with". The setting is not exactly oWoD or Shadowrun, by design. It's not meant to be.
>The setting asks us to believe, on the one hand, that the fact that gods are known to have existed has influenced culture while on the same time believe that it had a small enough influence that "most people don't really acknowledge it".
Jesus *isn't* known to have existed, and he's still influenced pop culture.

>>49509260
They literally thought they were monsters, Anon.

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>>49509521
Seems perfectly reasonable. After the first successful terrorist attack, building code was secretly changed to include those systems in order to counteract the extreme heat of the flames fueled by the jetfuel.

It can melt steel beams, you know.

It was kept secret since they didn't want the Terrorists to know. They over prepared though and in an unforeseen chain reaction from the chemicals much of New York was destroyed. It was just a matter of time really, a show of our own hubris and paranoia turning on us.

The one thing I think we can all agree on and take from this is that it has nothing to do with giant snake gods.

Guy who mentioned the Marvel Cinematic Universe, if you're still here:

Your example is bullshit. Yeah, people know that Captain America participated in WWII, but you're forgetting that most of what he did was super duper classified. I'm not even sure the public knows he was involved with the whole super serum deal or that his shield is made of vibranium. All they know is that America had one morale boosting figurehead soldier in a costume fighting on its side in a few battles. That's it.

He's the most down to earth, easily explainable member of the Avengers. Of course he wouldn't change history.

Imagine if everyone had known Thor fought in WWII, even if he somehow didn't change the outcome. The Catholic church would never have recovered from the damage. Europe's political landscape would've shifted tremendously by the realization that the Scandinavians may have an immortal superbeing on their side. Israel would never have been founded because nobody would've had time to even think about the Jews with the realization that GODS EXIST on their minds. The idea that some people can throw around lightning and punch buildings to dust would've changed the face of the 1950s arms race as people would've dedicated half their "nuclear weapons research" energy to "how do we get one of our own?"

That's what you need to consider.

>>49509538
They thought wildebeast were monsters too, what's your point?

>>49509538
>Jesus *isn't* known to have existed, and he's still influenced pop culture.
Which is the EXACT OPPOSITE SITUATION. Imagine if Jesus WAS known to have existed. (feel free to stop after the middle ages, when the changes to history become so large any further theorizing becomes no different from guesswork).

>>49509613
>Your example is bullshit. Yeah, people know that Captain America participated in WWII, but you're forgetting that most of what he did was super duper classified. I'm not even sure the public knows he was involved with the whole super serum deal or that his shield is made of vibranium. All they know is that America had one morale boosting figurehead soldier in a costume fighting on its side in a few battles. That's it.
He literally has a fucking museum section dedicated to him.

>Imagine if everyone had known Thor fought in WWII, even if he somehow didn't change the outcome
You mean like in the comics, where he works for Hitler and fights Captain America in one issue?

You don't NEED to consider a damned thing. No one HAS to do anything. You would LIKE if that were the case, but not doing what you want isn't some failing.

>>49509689
>He literally has a fucking museum section dedicated to him.
As a costumed figurehead. The museum doesn't go into detail about how he stopped HYDRA from nearly blowing up the East Coast.

>You mean like in the comics, where he works for Hitler and fights Captain America in one issue?
The example was about how changes to history can remain minimal and be believable. We've already agreed that those comics aren't.

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>>49509604
Naw man im telling you, it was a little gray alien!
The govmnts been hiding everything they can about them so they can gain their scifi thingymabobs.

>>49509422
>>49509474
Except this is a world where snake demons are known to have actually existed.

Imagine if instead of schizophrenic rumblings on /pol/, there was commonly accepted, widely recognized, publicly acknowledged evidence that a Jewish lizardman conspiracy definitely, absolutely exists or at least HAS existed. Now try to explain away 9/11.

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>>49509803
But everyone already knows that the Jewishlizardmen (or Saurosemites as they prefer to be called) are real and just pretends to not know for convenience sake, right...?

Neall came up half an hour ago with yet another confusing "clarification" that just raises more questions. Specifically referring to the subject of troll preserves, Neall specified that most people DO NOT know about the trolls, and that it's more a case of "this forest is rumored to be haunted".

By itself, all nice and well -

But it still conflicts with the idea of the pagans being all over. I'm sorry, but we're gonna need to see the numbers on those. "Neopaganism is as popular as Scientology and neopagans are viewed as harmless eccentrics, even when they neopagan in public"? I'm cool with that.

If the Big Ben has been replaced with a step pyramid in the London skyline, this has gone too far for my tastes.

>>49510020

Literally all it seems like is that the Abrahamic faiths either were less hardcore about purging pagan elements or they shifted to henotheism (our God is the only one that matters) over strict monotheism.