Imperium Asunder

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>>49445325
Ofcourse I just finish posting all my crap and its time for a new thread. Repostin'.

>>49417493
I agree. We should cut them. They are retarded.

>>49419405
Pic related. Can post more if this is insufficient.

>>49424360
I see the warmaster as neither. His meetings would be short. Or rather as long as they need to be. He would be concise. He would talk with brevity saying exactly what he needs to and nothing more. If people have questions he'd amswer them directly. Clear, cut, and to the point. I think its something everyone would think well of. The more flowery primarchs would take away how precisely crafted his orders are to capture what they need to. The more pragmatic would like the idea that he isnt wasting time with flowery fluff.

As for how they would treat him. Depends on the time frame. At the heresy before chaos taints gets them. A first among equals. Enoch might take it further. Later on, depends on who.

>>49433903
REEEEE

The way i see it the heresy didnt continue for 10000 years. The heresy is over. The loyalists lost. Its not about winning the heresy. Its about surviving afterwards.

>>49434373
Exactly. Its both hopeful (they survived) amd far more bleak (there is no win conditions)

>>49435031
Then hawks dont return to solarthey move to intercept the pursuing forces east. Interception also doesnt work unless they hit them after they Intercept the other forces? But thats a lot of Interception.

>>49439620
>raydon etc
Ive been away so this might have changed but what I posted was the penence quest which sends the hawks to the South and prevents them from joining most of the heresy.

>>49443544
possibly a few thousand with the hawks.

>>49419405
Council of Titan info dump coming in next post.

>>49445464
Attendees:
>Fabricator General of Mars (Artisan Decain)
>Acting High General of the Imperial Auxillia (Insert Name Here)
>High Admiral of the Imperial Armada
>Navigator Lord, Representing the Surviving Navigator Houses
>Lieutenant Commander Wrey of the Adeptus Custodes (refused title of Captain-General)
>Knight Templar Equerry (Name Req)
>Gene-Lord Bastion of the Oathsworn
>Speaker of the Scions (Name lost somewhere, I thought I saved it)
>The Master of Mars, Equerry to Sinistrum
>Malcador the Regent of Terra and Voice of the Emperor Ascendant

Primarchs
>Raydon, Xun, Alexios, Engerand,

Notable Topics, Who Raised them, and anything notable & Cool Quotes/Writefaggotry
>Selection of a new warmaster & chain of command prior to launching counter-attack // Raydon // Engerand selected
Role of the Custodes // Malcador // Put under Malcadors command.
Quote:
>"Of their loyalty to me there shall be no question nor doubt. I, and I alone, shall have the authority to stand in judgement over them."
Quoting the Emperor, - Lieutenant Commander to Engerand and Xun whilst they critiqued the value and trustworthiness of the failed Custodes.

The role & assets of the Mechanicus // Master of Mars // Fabricator General supports MoM suggestion to take over protection and garrison of Mechanicus Assets & Personnel.

>The nature and reliability of the Firewall // Xun // Alexios seeks to be put in charge of the investigation, the common vote however puts Xun in charge.

The Duties, Responsibility, and methods of protecting the Tempestus Gap in the short term. // Alexios // KE are put in charge of organising the defences, each legion promises to aid in some manner

>The whereabouts of Grashnak // Anders Kor // Grashnak is presumed dead.

more to follow.

>>49445482
>Authority, roles, and assets of the Imperial Armada and Imperial Auxillia // Alexios // Raydon is made Supreme Commander of the Imperial Armada, Engerand as the new "Lord-High Marshal" is made Supreme Commander of the Imperial Auxillia.

>The Establishment and Maintenance of the Warp Beacons // Malcador // Alexios offers his service as 2IC, Xun offers aid as well, however Alexios rebuffs saying he is needed elsewhere IRT the Fire Wall (Score 1-all)

The threat from further betrayal from within // Alexios // Nothing conclusive is determined, though Alexios does not leave the idea alone and begins work on the Adeptus Astartes (which would go on to suggest breaking into smaller groups to lessen the effective loss of a single rogue element)

>Plans for the counter attack, which would later be known as the 1st great crusade.

"Like any scholar, I feel a great sense of pride for my works of literature, my discoveries, my printed arguments. Far more than my military achievements, the knowledge I accumulated on Alexandria is my crowning glory.

Alexandria is, or perhaps was, a place of great worth. No greater repository of knowledge, wisdom, and art exists in the whole of the galaxy. The vaults of Mars, the reliquaries of Holy Terra, the new Library of Constantine, all these venerated repositories pale in comparison.

As the creator of such wisdom, I face a cruel dilemma of will. Would I rather all of my great works be lost for all time, burned by the fury of the Warmaster, or would I rather he recovered them, and put them to his dark purposes?

I find I am unable to answer such a question."

>Musings of Alexios Constantine,

>>49445325
Someone said last thread we werent archiving the threads. How do you do that if it isnt automatic?

Some thoughts on Gengrat I want cnc on:
How about if he's patrician, he looks regal, but with piercing eyes and teeth just a little too sharp for comfort. His mechadendrites and MIU almost give him a halo, perhaps two primary plugs rise from his forehead, one above each eye, the cables swept back over his head like curling horns.


His warplate is massive, cataphractii style. He has pauldrons like art deco beast heads, each with nine horns. He has a machinator array.
I think the obvious comparison is with Perturabo, though I think Vulkan's plate may bear some similarity.
Gengrat has more of an art deco feel to his gear than Perturabo's more directly classical feel.
Gengrat ought to look like he walked out of a German Expressionist film. He's got some Rotwang to him, I'm thinking one of the big legion icons is the nine pointed star.
Gengrat is also less sour than Perturabo. Gengrat enjoys what he does in a way that Perturabo can't. He has nothing to prove. The gates of madness open before Gengrat and he embraces what he finds there. The spirit is in the machine. The machine is the heart of the beast, the heart of the beast is full of spirit.

>>49445546
To kind of expand on that and raise something I'd suggested before, I'm imagining that in part, the fall of the Behemoth Guard can be traced to their take on the role of Spirit in the machine cult. They basically reject machine canon and the Mechanicum hierarchy, claiming with varying degrees of openness that the machine spirit is in all and bestows gifts.
A good example of these gifts of the spirit would be the ability to speak in machine tongues-- talking directly to servitors and automata, revelation of new designs, and odd machine empathy.
So you might have a Forge Tyrant like Pentekos Rotvang, an machine mystic, a latent psyker and techmarine who has tranches in which he begins babbling in binharic and nearby screens fill with images of new blueprints.
Servitors turn to stare as he passes and automata kneel before him.
He can even heal wounded machines at a touch.
Stuff like that.
Of course, the machine spirits are malignant, or at least belligerent and between the legion demeanor and the fact that there is a very good reason the Mechanicum keeps such a tight leash on things, they get pushed towards chaos that way.

The other big factor is the Scorpion Prophet of Xana II. They find him when they take Xana and he pushes them further down the path, his job greatly simplified by the Behemoth Guard's take on spirit.
(It's Scoria.)

So the Forge Tyrants are all getting in to funky shit and eventually Gengrat finds out and everyone is afraid he'll rip their heads off, but he's all "Nah man, it's cool. I used to mess with sorcery, but I figured it was superstition. This shit is legit tho. Listen to the voices!"

>>49445325
>Putting it all on the wiki edition

What needs to go on there, and where does it go?

>>49445530
/suptg/'s archive require manual submission of each thread, and IIRC you have to do it before the thread dies. I think the very first thread might be on there but that's about it.

Warosu's archive is semi-automated and I think most but definitely not all of the threads are archived there.

>>49445591
Oathsworn and Eyes, two of the most important narrative legions, still have red links. Silver Spears page is literally empty, and most legion pages don't have half the shit we've talked about in the threads.

>>49445606
Well if everyone wants to post what they have on the Oathsworn, ill get to their page now.

>>49445606
Does someone want to help me fill in Faustus' relationship matrix.

Im totally at a loss of how he would feel towards his brothers and their legions.

>>49445847
I remember him getting along with the Warmaster, that's pretty much all I know.

>>49445592
Not sure it saves it forever though.

>>49446707
>I remember him getting along with the Warmaster
oh boy is this the wrongest thing ever written

They're mortal enemies ever since the Warmarster 'pacified' Luna.

>>49446714
Really? Well, like it was said before, they don't have a wiki page, so I barely know anything. Remember there being some sort of relationship between the two, guess it was the exact opposite.

>>49445558
Nice. I like how this machine mysticism has changed the machines surrounding the legion, and I'm interested to see if it has repercussions down the road.

>>49445464
>Then hawks dont return to solarthey move to intercept the pursuing forces east. Interception also doesnt work unless they hit them after they Intercept the other forces? But thats a lot of Interception.

Wait, so the Hawks don't start heading back for Terra until the end of the Heresy?

Super important question: if all the primarchs of the Asunderverse had high school aged daughters, what would that be like?

>>49447085
Pls no

>>49447043
Correct.

They are sent away with the intention of 'turning' them when they get back. The idea being.
> raydon displayed signs of disloyalty through disobeying the pacification of the Oathsworn
> almost all of Raydons buddies turn to chaos. He is (in)famous for sticking with his buddies.
> Raydon has always been vocal about his issues with the great crusade and the Big E.
The warmaster also has the Warhawk 'home' planet (space station) destroyed. And makes it look like the Serpents did it. (Blames the other guys)

The only thing that really stops his plan, is that Raydon has a spy at the tournament of blades who reports to him the truth. So when Enoch comes and tells him the warmasters version of events. He knows its a lie.

From there he 'follows his gut' and chooses not to go for terra but to try and RV with the fleeing loyalists. Unfortunately the warp is not unstable as shit. So he gives some badass inspirational speech to ths Hawk fleet before charging into the warp anyway.

This is how
>a
They manags to surprise the traitors and buy the loyalists a little time (the warp is meant to be damn near impossible to use over long distances at this time
>b
Manage to lose so much of their numbers, even though a majority of their combats are in space. They lose approximately half / to 1/3rd the legion just getting back.
>c
They avoid the 'morale break' that occurs to those loyalists who fought on terra. (Ie klaus dying) When everyone wants to give up, they want to fight on because they didnt go through the same hell.

>>49447192
Ahhh.

I thought they were sent away on a penance quest for not censuring the Oathsworn, but they started to head back to Terra when word reached them of the betrayal at Cadia. Then the Ruinstorm plus other interference meant that they didn't make it back into Segmentum Solar until the loyalist forces were in retreat, and they decided to make up for not being there by covering their backs.

I guess if we're still having them fight the Warp Raiders we could have them attack toward the end of Raydon's penance campaign, keeping the Hawks away long enough for the Heresy to mostly conclude without them, but also giving Raydon his first clue that some shit is up.

Fist guy here, just came to post something that everyone already knows, Fist guy is shit at input and needs taking over or something

>>49447251
Kek.

Well, we've at least decided how your guy get put in his jar.

>>49447262
i decided that way back in i think the 2nd thread. Unless more detail got put in recently?

>>49447243
Yeah. The reason they are sent is the penance quest. But what was posted was the reason why Raydon wasnt straight up executed for treason.

As for the timings, if people prefer that that's cool i dont mind changing it. I pretty much only made it after to have a bit of dialogue between raydon and enoch.

As for attacking them while they are away i think it doesnt work. Like you say, it gives away the idea that something is up. Likewise it puts them offside rather than turns them to the warmasters side.

What about?
>warhawks return and intercept the traitors
>traitors call in warp raiders to c-ambush
>warhawks now have to attempt delaying actions against the pursuing forces AND fight off tricky hobbitsies -- i mean warp raiders.

>>49447331
Okay, makes sense. We can rework the War in the Void as the Crimson Warhawks v all the goddamn traitors basically, but primarily the Warp Raiders.

So, am I correct in assuming that most Legions had at least a small contingent on Cadia during the betrayal?

>>49448521
The Scions weren't there. I think Alexios or Xun has a handy chart for this.

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"The Anandine Campaign is considered by many scholars to be among the first great embarrassments suffered by the Imperium of Old, and a pivotal moment in its conflict-stricken history - even if, at the time, it seemed more a footnote than anything more. Home to the Iron Hearts' father-world of Rust, the Anandine System became a battleground in late 000.M31, when the censuring of the Legion was ordered by our Emperor Most High. Assigned to the task the Primarch Balthasar, fresh from his victories in the rimward Segmentum Obscurus, and confident beyond reason of a certain victory against Rubinek's sons. Though the details of the conflict's formative days are sparse and difficult to discern, due to the secrecy initially maintained between Master of Mankind and his son Balthasar, it would seem that the Primarch's initial understanding of the campaign was fundamentally flawed.

Balthasar had known his brother Rubinek as a child failure - lord over a Legion of genetic offscourings and abominations, each one a singular eyesore before the radiance of the Emperor Most High. Rubinek's Legion was notoriously under-strength due to the genetic instability of the Primarch's gene-seed, and its Astartes often failed to reach their full potential as scions of the Immortal Emperor. Our understanding of the situation seems to imply that Balthasar had to be convinced by his High Father to assemble even a moderate muster of his Legion for the task ahead - best estimates putting the Bloodhounds task force at roughly three times the size, man for man, as the total Iron Hearts Legion at that time. Had it not been for the Emperor Most High's recommendations, Balthasar would likely have taken to the field of battle with a smaller force, perhaps even allowing himself to be outnumbered, and history may have taken a very different turn."

>>49449407
"The Legion of cripples Balthasar expected to tear asunder was nowhere to be found when his fleet transitioned out of the Warp on the fringes of the Anandine System. Rubinek, though spiteful and cruel, possessed the worthy virtue of caution, and, as the events to come would soon reveal, had never put a great deal of stock in the Emperor Most High's promise to leave his Legion untouched despite their genetic instability. The outer worlds of the Anandine System were a palisade formation of well-supplied, well-defended fortress worlds, their surfaces dominated by sweeping castles and outer crusts strewn with reinforced adamantium vaults. Even had the Iron Hearts been as Balthasar expected them, the planetary auxilla would have slowed his Legion greatly, the handiwork of Rubinek's sons forming a maze of confounding defense emplacements that would have allowed a far lesser force to last many months, or even years, against a far superior enemy. Used to chasing down panicked xeno armies, the Bloodhounds were ill-prepared to face a Legion of Astartes in such conditions.

In the early days of the war, few Iron Hearts were seen - a fact which infuriated many of Balthasar's lieutenants. The Bloodhounds fought an unsatisfying campaign of constant bombardment against the planetary defenses of the outer worlds, gaining little ground and, to Balthasar's great dismay, little glory. Soon the Primarch reached wits' end, and withdrew his forces from many of the outer worlds, to make a total assault upon the linchpin planet of Pelagos, reasoning that though human auxilla would be free to reinforce the world from unoccupied territories, their interference would be of little consequence if they could not hide behind the walls of their homeworlds. In this assumption, he had made a grave tactical error."

>>49449429
"The full muster of the Iron Hearts Legion met with Balthasar's armies on Pelagos. Though the traitors' abominable durability is widely known today, it was not so to Balthasar, and his forces were taken entirely by surprise by the sheer tenacity of Rubinek's sons. Their gene-seed corrupted by the foul technology of Rust's catacombs, the Iron Hearts possessed strength and endurance well beyond that of the standard Astartes, and the Bloodhounds were simply not prepared to face such a foe on even standing. The battle, by all indications, was a rout. The Bloodhounds crashed against their foes in a tide of bloody-minded steel, but their tried-and-tested tactics were of little avail against the veritable wall of suppressing fire put down by their adversaries.

There is faint evidence that Balthasar, enraged and shamed, challenged his brother to a duel, bellowing to him to stand and fight as a true son of Our Emperor Most High should, with honour and noble bearing. Details on the specifics of Rubinek's reply are sparing at best, and every indication seems to suggest that if they did engage in combat, it did not end well for Bornhold, who clearly did not strike down Rubinek and left the Anandine System thoroughly defeated."

>>49449471
"Balthasar and his forces were forced by sheer weight of casualties to retreat to the outer reaches of the Anandine System and signal for reinforcements, not only bringing great shame to the Bloodhounds, but revealing the censuring of the Iron Hearts to the Imperium at large. By the time reinforcements arrived in the form of the second and third Chapters of the Bloodhounds and the sixth Chapter of the Angels of Light, Rubinek's sons had stripped Rust's surface of its valuables and fled into the void. They would not be seen again by the majority of loyalist forces until the dark days of the Heresy.

Many consider this bloody affair to the first seedling of Heresy, leaving both Balthasar and Rubinek intensely bitter of the outcome, and engendering a gnawing sense of distrust amidst the ranks of Our Emperor's sons. Balthasar, known for his swift and total annihilation of all dissidents to Our Emperor's cause, clearly considered his honour tarnished, and was quick to respond when the time would come to correct his mistakes through the Edict of Nikaea. This second failure would only feed the Primarch's anger, riling the beast that hid in the darkest corners Balthasar's soul. Rubinek left the Imperium with revenge in his heart, any hope of reconciliation between brothers dashed, his Legion declared outcast and his abominable deeds known to all the Imperium. His brothers looked on and knew for the first time an inkling of dread, and in this dread lay the bare bones of betrayal.

Now, on the minutiae of the campaign..."

>Khadagh Tsogt, 8th Master of Ceremonies of the Blood Drinkers, Tzolkin Succesor to the Sky Serpents Legion, 'The Long Road to Heresy, Volume I'

>>49449496
That's a pretty damn cool story, glad to get some more concrete info on that important events.

My only problem lies with the Blood Drinkers. You guys know that's a Blood Angel successor right? With the same color scheme?
Or is that what you were going for?

>>49450129
>You guys know that's a Blood Angel successor right?

Nope.

Not immensely surprised, though. Blood Angels successors have probably taken every 'blood' or 'flesh' related name possible by now.

Either way, they don't have the same colour scheme, OU Blood Drinkers appear to be 100% Red Gore.

>>49450129
Well, they rock the Red with Gold trim. Plenty of other things you could call them though. Red Fangs, Crimson Snakes, etc etc.

>>49450388
I'll probably just change it to Blood Dragons.

WHFB reference hoooooooo...

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>>49450430
Led by none other than Captain Rex Colt

>>49449496
Nice.
It reads like good history and I think you make some good points in terms of the impact.

Also have to say I really like that you put it as a Sky Serpents legionary's history. I think that sort of analysis is very important to the legion and upper levels of the civil service.

>>49450467
Hah. I guess their Chapter Master should at least have a cybernetic eye.

>>49450635
I assumed they'd be a bit more even-handed with their history, since they believe the Emperor was fallible as a man but is now infallible as a god. Whereas an Angels of Light historian would be all "THIS HAPPENED AND THIS HAPPENED AND IT WAS ALL THIS ONE GUY'S FAULT AVE IMPERATOR PRAISE IT 420."

>>49447320
O-oh.

Okay.

I didn't know that.

Personally one of the things for the Fists that could be cool to write about would be the battles some of their companies fight against the Dark Mechanicus during the Heresy, and the mad scrabbling the retreating FoM make to pick up as much stuff as they can from Forge Worlds that are not completely fucked as they retreat east.

>>49451013
Most definitely. I think it's something of an obsession with them, to understand.
I'd been thinking that when Xun tears out Rubinek's heart, he nearly yells "Blood for the Blood God" instead of "For the Emperor". The whole legion comes out of the heresy feeling like it could just as easily have been them rallying to the Warmaster's banner, so they spend a lot of effort trying to figure out why they didn't, and to understand that, they need to understand why the traitors did.

>>49448917
I'll dig it out this evening.

Speaking of, Sarco, we were discussing a potential Scions Serpents link up during the heresy, a massive armada that arrives just in time to cover the retreat, and plays a role in evacuation, and then leads into the Century Siege. Something we want to pursue?

>>49452297
Yes. One question I have is how long after the battle of Terra does the Council of Titans happen? Would the Century Siege prevent the Scions from attending?

>>49452362
Nah, I think the idea was that the scouring leads into a period of severe warp storms that keep everyone boxed in for a century or two. That's what keeps the Traitors from continuing their push and sets them to fighting eachother.
After the storms subside some, everyone gets together, so you've got a couple hundred years.

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Decided to do some more on these guys.

>The Blood Dragons Chapter
A Second Founding Tzolkin successor of the Sky Serpents, the Blood Dragons are one of the first successor Chapters to be formed directly in the wake of the Heresy. Like others of this Founding, they are comprised from a patchwork recruiting base of both of Sky Serpent recruits and Loyalist Astartes who put service to their Emperor over service to their traitorous Legions, particularly the Oathsworn and the Negators. Possessed of a fervent need to prove their loyalty, the Blood Dragons served valiantly and mercilessly in the First and Second Crusades, making a name for themselves as one of the more successful Chapters of fractured origins, alongside the Knights of MacLior and the Hammers of Luna.

Time has seen the Chapter transformed into fervent believers in the faith of the Jade Empire, though their internal rituals and customs are often thought of as strange and bloody by other Chapters. Their initial obsession with past transgressions has shifted over the millennia into a rigid upholding of tradition and a strong sense of historical worth, with no less than five specific ranks within the Chapter devoted to the performance, overseeing, and maintenance of particular rituals and their associated histories (Master of Liturgies, Master of Sacraments, Master of Devotions, Master of Invocations, and Master of Ceremonies). This scholarly nature is in sharp contrast to the Chapter's battlefield doctrine - the Blood Dragons prize the savagery of rapid assault and close combat, preferring to descend quickly upon jump packs and rend their foes apart, and many have reported incidents of Blood Dragons Astartes entering fiery passions in the midst of battle, their wits fleeing from them as the rush of battle transforms them into implements of the Emperor's holy wraith. Some have even claimed to have seen them drinking from the torn throats of their enemies, though few consider this more than an ill rumour.

>>49454727
I'm Xunfag and I approve this message.

Also like the idea of fractured chapters as a distinct class of Astartes organization set up in the wake of the Heresy. Are you thinking they're a Sky Serpents thing, or are they linked to other legions?

>>49454768
General thing. I would imagine some Crusader States have them and some don't.

The Knights of MacLior and the Hammers of Luna I've envisioned as Storm Kingdom folks.

IIRC the largest number of outcasts are in the Broken Blades, so there are probably only six 'fractured' Chapters max.

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Writefaggotry of Oramar aboard the All Seeing Eye, watching the first meeting of the traitor primarchs. First draft, unedited. C+C pls senpais.

http://pastebin.com/0qnui4TQ

>>49454835
>>49454768
>>49454727
So are these guys breaking into chapters before Alexios publishes the Codex Astartes (after the first crusade) or after?

>>49455051
Nice.

I can't help but imagine Rubinek's outburst crushing Aodhán's mug or something, and Aodhán just looking at him for half the meeting with a "dude, you gonna clean that shit up?" expression.

>>49455074
I think these first Chapters are more like containment. The loyalists from among the traitors have to go somewhere.

It's later that successor Chapters become a big thing.

>>49455074
>>49455239
Yeah, I'm thinking that Xun is making special administrative groupings for them . They've got different gene-seed and fighting styles so he has to do something with them.
So he makes Tzolkin with a bit more autonomy. They're still centrally managed, Gene-Seed, supplied, but they'reallowed their own traditions.
Which really isn't that different from being a regular Tzolkin.
I suppose he's trying to bring them into the legion without taking a crap on their teaditions.
I suspect that he also helps them rebuild their numbers to an extent. I'm thinking the Oathsworn gene-wrights are given substantial space on Tepectitlan.

Now that I think about it, I suspect that it's a big deal to Xun that they stood with him and Jade Empire propaganda likely makes a huge deal out of the fact that sacrificed all for the Emperor.

>>49455721
I think we should keep similiar to ou anon however that whilst the loyalists might have geneseed from traitor legions, its almost never used to start chapters and when it is used, it ends horribly for everyone.

>>49455993
I was mostly thinking of the Oathsworn and Knights Exemplar, though I think Xun thinks of them as falling in the same boat as the loyalists from traitor legions. Might be that he stops the practice after people yell at him for it.
Either way, the fact that there were loyalists in the traitor legions is a major point for propaganda and is held up as an example across society in the Jade Empire.
The understanding that there were also traitors in loyalist legions is mostly kept to the very well educated, where their stories are used to check ones own behavior.

>>49451911
Unfortunately im a terrible writefag which really hampers my ability to contribute

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>>49449407
>>49449429
>>49449471
>>49449496

This was a good read

t. Balthasar

>>49446989
I think the big thing is probably in the daemon engines.
Now that I think of it, the Behemoth Guard probably maintains a distinction between daemons bound to machines and machine spirits proper.
They probably see daemon engines like the Defiler as a cruder thing than the unnaturally augmented battle automata.
Abomination engines are a bit different, since they're pure warp constructs.

This said, the Behemoth Guard summons freely and binds freely. They just differ in prestige.

Actually, how do the post heresy Asura see the Behemoth Guard and vice versa?

>>49455051
Nice. I really liked the descriptions of everyone.
Couple thoughts-- does Rubinek have a literal hole in his chest? Seems like a major liability.
Is Kashaln armed with a Lance of Longinus?

I'm surprised to see Enoch in Tartaros. It's cool plate, but he always seemed like a cataphractii type to me.

Gengrat feels right, though I feel like his head needs work. At the moment he sounds like Medusa, which feels off. I'd been thinking of something more like Perturabo or Angron dreadlocks, but I feel like he should have something a bit more menacing going on. Some sort of iron devil horns or something.
I dunno.

>>49458654
For what its worth i think devil horns wpuld look tacky.

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>>49458654

>>49459064
THis. Much this.

>>49447251
>>49447262
>>49447320
>>49451911
>>49456651
im so useless no one even cares im quiting

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>>49459166
Even the ankh fits.

Also, Saul Sheridan as a black man. Thoughts?

>>49459024
Yeah, I agree with that, hence the going in circles.

>>49459064
Yes!! This. You win one internet.

>>49459221
What? No. Just put up ideas. Stuff like Tarsis Sinister have been fantastic. I, for one, value your input.

>>49459064
>>49459166
Now that I think about it, there might be potential portrait lookalikes for all the primarchs in the Shadowrun games.

This warrants further study.

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>>49459255
How about metal Laurels to give the implication of horns? Fits into his whole kinda Grecian theme, and even brings him closer to some kind of weird Pan/Faun. They could be implants with functionality as well.

>>49459221
Boo-hoo someone validate me.
If youre going to quit, quit.
If youre going to input, input
if youre going to pop-in every now and again THATS FINE TOO

Just don't be a self-pitying fool.

>>49459243
Oooh, I can see that. The bald mocha love child of Idris Elba, Laurence Fishburne, and Marlon Brando!

>>49459064
Filter-mask in the shape of a snarling beast's mouth or a rictus grin? Or an aniconic geometric grill?

>>49459267
Oooh, this too is a great idea. It's subtle and functional. Simultaneously works with his mask of civility and the undercurrents that flow beneath.

Who were the best looking Primarchs like Sangy or Fulgrim?

>>49459306
Kashaln's a pompous tit

>>49459306
I'd say Kashaln, Klaus, maybe Aodhan if you like that sort of style.

>>49459221
>>49459255
>>49459292
Thanks for validateing me Xun. thanks for stoping me from being a bitch Anon.

Guess ill pop in every now and then. I just feel bad for it after hearing the talk on hektor herasy, seems like folks get pissd about it.

>>49459337
I for one try not to compare the two projects. For a few reasons, but primarily we are different people, things will be different.

I like FoM, I like Sinistrum.

I mean, work takes me away from this for days (soon to be possibly weeks) at a time. Its just how it is.

>>49459306
Klaus or Faustus in the distant, handsome way until he opens his mouth. Kind of like Sanguinius and Fulgrim really.

>>49459357
Thanks Raydon your a bro, ill think some shit up and post when i can. let's break up the circle jerk though.

>>49459306
Xun is like Sanguinius on his scary days, so more majestic and aethereal, rather than pretty.
I imagine Kashaln has the pompousity of Fulgrim down, while Klaus has the noble bearing of Sanguinius, but I don't think he's pretty like Sanguinius. Klaus is rugged like Dorn.
Aodhán, I think, is the pretty one. As time goes on, though, I imagine he'd feel like he's always striking a pose.
Ooh, Anshul. Anshul is just kind of graceful and serene. He's probably the closest to the way Sanguinius is just heartbreakingly beautiful, but without the menace that underlies Sanguinius, since Sanguinius has fangs.

>>49459297
I'll screw with some doodles in the next day or so.

>>49459297
Yeah, I was just watching Pacific Rim this afternoon and Pentecost struck me as another good inspiration for Saul. Especially the whole dying of cancer but trying to remain a stoic and steadfast leader to a group of people running on very little hope. Also the whole "Those are my rangers that die out there." I can see Saul saying something like that to some Imperial General questioning the high casualty rates of his campaigns.

Speaking of the Second Sons and casualties, I saw last thread there was mention of legion sizes and the Sons were one of the biggest. That makes sense given their high casualties, but I imagine that they kinda fluctuate across the whole Crusade. Ranging from anywhere between 75k and 125k depending on current reinforcement. I think the recruitment/integration speed for the Sons is probably a little higher than other legions for a couple reasons.

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>>49459422
Also, what's the status of this symbol the 40k universe?

>>49459422
>Saul as a leader to die for
Totally. I think the more he's that guy you'd follow into hell, the better it makes it when he snaps. I imagine he has a slight martyr complex. Nothing that you'd notice and go 'woah, he's nuts', but generally that he's the sort to bear the weight of the galaxy on him. He expects discipline and takes responsibility for his commands, which means that he takes responsibility for every rad weapon and phosphex shell. And he tells himself what is to come is worth it.
He seems like the sort that even in his madness, he's still a good leader that commands the loyalty of his men.
I think that's what Gengrat misses--he thought Saul would snap and finally admit that he loves war the way Gengrat does. Instead, Saul goes off the deep end with trying to end it. Gengrat finds nihilism intensely liberating and fun, while Saul finds it a terrible burden.

>Legion Casualties
Could be that they've got a resilient and adaptable gene seed, like the Iron Warriors. That'd explain how they can get away with using so much toxic weaponry and still harvest gene seed, etc.
Even so, perhaps they have a ritual after like 20 years, when the progenoid has matured, they harvest it while the marine still lives. With that done, it's no longer exposed to chemicals and radiation and the marine no longer has to worry about their duty to the legion's future. Instead they can focus solely on their duty to the Imperium and Saul.

>>49459561
Exactly. He's got the kind of charisma/presence that people on the outside don't really get but people around him all the time, that is his marines, are really invested into. From an observers point of view, killing everyone in the galaxy seems like something a crazy person would say but from within the legion it seems like genius. He definitely has that martyr/weight of the world thing going on. Every decision is *his* decision, and he fully accepts the consequences.

As for the geneseed thing, yeah I was thinking something kinda like the second. I also think there might be something about either the training/legion culture of the Second Sons, or the geneseed itself, that leads it to take quicker/by more people and result in slightly weaker marines. There's more variance within the Second Sons than other legions, except for a universal sense of duty.

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>>49459561
If he is going to be a 'follow into hell sort' he needs to tone down on the callous disregard for life (IRT his own troops). So far he has been played straight as a numbers guy. One anon even likened him to an IG General, I think Alexios might have as well. But those types are certainly NOT the follow into hell sorts.

Honestly my first thoughts of him are pic related. Im not sure if he was inspired by pic related, hence the name. Or if I linked the name in my head and have been drawing my own conclusions.

Im not saying we can make him an inspiration leader, but i certainly havent seen him that way from the previous descriptions. I do like the idea of a tactically proficient 2IC/Commander who struggles in the hot seat himself.

Bump with Black Suns warband strength:
In the height of their power, the Black Suns had over 10,000 Marines, backed up by an entire sector's worth of production and 20 regiments of professional soldiers. Since then, their power has waned, and by the 13th crusade only 2,000 Marines remain. To compensate for this, they now have 35 regiments of guardsmen and every citizen strong enough to use a gun is considered a member of reserves for PDF forces.
Despite this seemingly desperate position against the Dark Imperium, Black Suns have managed to hold every world of Calixis sector, earning them reputation as mighty warriors and enemies of man, alien and daemon alike.

On an only slightly more serious note than my last post: Say we drop the average marine from each of the 20 legions in a jungle and tell them to have a go at each other; Who comes out on top? Who get eliminated first?

>>49461124
Well with any hunger games style scenario, it typically boils down to a few archtypes.

1. The most athletic/strongest. - Arguably a Knight Exemplar or Negator
2. The smart guy - well go Angel of Light
3. The survivalist - Ironhearts are by far the hardiest.
4. The guy who hides and waits it out, which puts them in the top 4. - Eyes I guess?

From there its really up to the writer. One thing is for sure.

Generalists suck in arena battles. If you aren't set in an archtype you lose straightup without plot armour.

If playing hunger game mods has taught me anything, I'm betting on the guy who hides.

Typically the smart guy takes down the strong guy through traps and such, but those same traps aren't good enough to take out the survivalist so the smart guy and the survivalist have to duke it out. The Survivalist wins (its in his name) and the sneaky dude runs out last minute to kick him when he is weak.

>>49461124
So we have.

Knight Exemplar, Oathsworn, Paladin of Kor, Warp Raider, Eye of the Warmaster, Bloodhound, Silver Spear, Judgement Bringer, Second Sons
Ironheart, Behe Guard, Arm of Asura, Negator, Warhawk, Fist o Mars
Storm Hammer, Void Lord, Angel of Light, Sky Serpent, Undying Scion

Assuming they are just average joe tactical marines...

I'm going to say either the Storm Hammer or Angel of Light gets taken out first. Storm Hammers are too loud and aggro, they would draw attention to themselves almost immediately. The Angel stands a somewhat good chance if they can last long enough to compile geographic data, the strengths and weaknesses of their foes, etc. But I just don't see them getting the chance.

Coming out on top, i'd say Iron Heart. Pound for pound they are just superior to most other legions. Im not sure how the terrain would effect them, but no Astarte is 'dumb' and would probably figure out a way to mitigate it.

>This is assuming no specialists such as librarians, veterans, terminators, Dreadnought etc.

I'm still here guys. I just don't have anything to add to any of the current discussion. Until someone wants my opinion or I have something, I'm gonna continue lurking.

>>49461411
Why am I imagining this as an episode of Star Trek starring an Iron Heart as a Gorn and an Oathsworn on hand to say thinks like Dammit Xun, I'm a doctor, not an ice cream truck!

>>49462920
That's the standard Oathsworn reponse to anything post heresy. Every single one of them has at least some medicinal knowledge to rival an apothecary in an area, their real apothecaries are the only ones who truly know how this whole geneseed shit, and they're all inherently bitter, jaded fucks after getting so rekt by chaos its inplanted into their genes like the Black Rage.

Hell I think it was thrown out in additional to being Nam vets once implanted, they have flash backs to Terra and all thr terrible, sanity crushing horrors that were unleashed by Faustus and Chaos at the end. Probably come back from it unlike Death Company because there are so few, but they really just fuck shit up like nothing else when under a flash back.

Terra really needs to be expounded on how fucking horrible it was to be on a proto-daemon world at its peak of the siege.

>>49459306
Sarco obviously. Dat chassis.

For real though. Aodhan, I think, is the breathtakingly good looking one.

I imagine Klaus and Raydon as ruggedly handsome. Anshul as the prettiest, in an androgynous way, but also sort of disconcerting. Kashaln is for moustache enthusiasts.

>>49461124
Do they have their weapons?

If not, I'm gonna say it comes down to an Iron Heart, a Warhawk, and a Negator.

>>49461124
Depends on if someone can cheat using psychic powers, tech powers, or Emperor forbid an Oathsworn uses their bio powers to just phage nuke the entire god damn arena.

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>>49461411
>The Angel stands a somewhat good chance if they can last long enough to compile geographic data, the strengths and weaknesses of their foes, etc. But I just don't see them getting the chance.

>>49461124
>in a jungle

Bloodhound dude would be 100% in his element. Armed with simple weapons, on his own, and told to hunt down Astartes in a thick jungle?

That's literally what he did to earn his geneseed in the first place.

>>49463538
Not to mention that, pre-heresy, the Bloodhounds had more experience fighting other Astartes than anyone else.

>>49463653
You mean getting their asses handed to them by other Astartes.
>laughing Iron Hearts.png

>>49463957
I'd say they aren't even close to being experts in that.
>Black Suns
>Mostly ignored
>80% losses despite constant recruitment and 20 regiments of guardsmen supporting them
Sure, Black Suns have thus far "won" every fight (survival and holding ground is enough for them) but have taken casualties they can ill afford.

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>>49463957
>>laughing Iron Hearts.png

someone should shoop this guy's armor to be bronze and green

>>49463493
At some point I need to write a short scene with a bunch of Negators underestimating Alexios and getting their heads caved into their chests by his sick space pope stick.

>>49464151
Not to mention they're getting drawn into a full scale war with the Ash Bearers.

>>49464345
And to rub it in, Ash Bearers' fire is the bane of Black Suns' shadow powers. The rest is still there, but that's a large chunk of their tricks negated, or at least diminished.

>>49463027
Nice. So I suppose this would imply that as the treachery is revealed and the daemons are unleashed, Faustus opens the seals and unleashes ruin upon Terra.
If I'm not mistaken, the Emperor is down in the vaults, fighting in the Webway.

So does Faustus form a second front from Luna? Or does he change the orbit so that it's over the Imperial Palace?

Either way, I imagine the whole thing looks like a power metal album cover on scary drugs.
Are we still thinking Faustus is tinkering with nulls?

And then there's also the question of how each legion deals with their Oathsworn post heresy. Xun brings them into the legion and even in M41 the Regent of Tepectitlan has an honor Guard of Oathsworn and Knights Exemplar.

I imagine everyone has a Cadre of Oathsworn Genewrights, though generally kept on a shorter leash.

>>49465156
Probably changes orbit, since he was already getting ready to colony drop Luna.

Faustus was tinkering with everything but definitely nulls.

>>49465286
How about:
>Silent Knights
The culmination of Faustus' experimentation with Nulls, the Silent Knights are able to project a directional null aura. At the Siege of Terra they were reported to weild psychokinetic blades that could drain the life from psykers and daemons, as well as supposedly being armed with a Speculum Anima-like device.
Unfortunately the secret to their creation was lost with Faustus, and the so-called Silent Knights of later days are less powerful and far harder to make.

>Genomancer Cadre
Of perhaps kindred spirit to the technomancers of the Behemoth Guard, the Genomancers take to the field of battle with their biological creations. These range from gene-bulked servitors to cy-carnivora, to far more esoteric beasts. According to legend, these included dragons deployed to fight daemons over Terra, but this is considered doubtful.

>Huskarls
Such was the gene mastery of the Oathsworn that they could improve some on Astartes design. Essentially lesser Custodes, these guys get extra bling.

>Berserkers
Thunder Warriors, basically designed as a disposable shock troop. A number underwent treatment similar to the Eversor Assassins to maximize their lethality.

>>49465482
>>49465286
Needs some sort of plague destroyers, who unleash the sickest biological warfare aince the Death Guard. Man portable life eater virus flamers and stuff

PROMPT
What trials can aspirants to your legion (and later chapter) expect to go through?

>The Undying Scions' fortress is located on the highest peak of their homeworld of Amaranth. Any tribesman of the proper age that makes the often fatal journey to the Scions' home is made to undergo trials of will and endurance, such as hiking long distances in unpowered armor or resisting the mental touch of a librarian for as long as possible. Once their modifications are complete, aspirants are inducted into the chapter as full marines in the High Council chambers, as the Baleful Blade hangs overhead.

>>49465873
For the Oathsworn, tests. So many tests of knowledge and physical ability. Basically put them through war/medical college with standardised tests to make sure that the marines they are mass producing are up to the standard.

>>49465873
The Black Suns pair their aspirants and put them in a small, dark room with a combat servitor protecting a single chalice filled with water for several weeks, ranging from 5 up to 8, to test them. Survivors will become Scouts, and later full Marines.
For example, If they work together and both survive, their wits and tenacity earn them their indoctrination.
Depending on the method each aspirant used to survive, they will be appointed to different specialized training programs: Smart and tough ones are taught to think and shoot, the strong are taught to fight and survive, and those with wits, tenacity and brawn alike become future leaders of the new squads.

>>49465749
Roger that
>Something something
While much of the Oathsworn's efforts were directed towards healing, a great deal of learning to make whole is learning how to take things apart. Thus it was that the xxx were formed to craft toxin and phage to render the enemies of humanity to elemental sludge. Some of these found common cause with the solemn ranks of the Second Sons, but many more were deployed in the cause of the Emperor.
Though their greatest and most terrible works were lost during the Heresy, small clades exist to this day, both amongst the Second Sons and the Eastern Imperium. In particular, since the arrival of the Tyranids, the xxx have been particularly busy seeking ways to defeat this newest foe.

>>49465873
Because most aspirants come from the Schola system, the trials are more of a battery of tests designed to find the best use of the individual. The Schola system is where you get most of your civil administrators, military officers, inquisitors, etc etc, so it's less a question of talent and more an issue of suitability.
Trials tend to be team affairs, looking at how the aspirants function in a squad. There is also a tendency to focus on challenges that require lateral thinking-- an astartes must he able to adapt.

>>49465873
Negators aspirants during the Great Crusade go through three stages of trials. The first is a rite that became woven into the culture of Nusku as a recruitment world. In addition to the standard rites of passage that youngsters of Nusku's clans go through, such as tests of pain resilience, combat skill, and courage, most young boys are expected to hunt and kill one of the dangerous, highly irradiated predators that roams the world's misty ravines. The caliber of the slaughtered prey and the means by which the boy takes it down determine whether they are considered for recruitment into the Legion.

The second round of testing occurs slightly later, and is a team operation by the potential initiates. Bands of 5-6 youths spend roughly a year providing for themselves in the wilderness of Nusku. The bonds formed here are exceptionally close, and often endure into the initiates' lives as Astartes. Some tribes have specific rituals to be maintained, but for most, a positive survival ratio if the best indicator of success.

The third round of testing is a tournament of courage, martial skill, endurance, and warrior spirit, where bands from across Nusku compete against one another, individually and as a team. An individual loss means a loss for the entire band, and their designated leader is generally flogged for failing to properly prepare and inspire his fellow potentiates. If they are young enough, they may have another chance the coming year.

>>49465156
>>49465286
you guys realize the moon moves around the earth, right? It doesn't just sit over one place.

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>>49465873
Bloodhound Aspirants are tossed into the jungles of karach with a knife and a bolt pistol, and told they'll be hunted by the squad they would join if they were accepted. The squad pursues them through the jungle, hunting the aspirant relentlessly. There are three possibilities for the aspirant:

>1. He is caught.
A fate worse than death. The hunting pack have free reign to kill the aspirant however quickly or slowly they see fit. Some hunting packs simply shoot their aspirants, but others will hound them to exhaustion, or capture them and torture them. It is believed that the harsher the treatment to captured aspirants, the better.

>2. He evades capture until the appointed time three days later.
Most aspirants succeed this way, and most bloodhound soldiers joined through this kind of success. The Aspirant lights a beacon fire on the third day, and his hunting pack comes to him. There, at the campsite, they celebrate their soon to be brother joining their squad with revelry and battle songs.

>3. He turns the table and begins hunting the hunters
This happens very rarely, for outsmarting four Astartes Warriors when you are an eight to twelve year old Karachian boy is no easy feet. However, it has been known to happen, and aspirants who manage such feats of prowess and survivalism often rise high and fast through the ranks. General Captain Cullen, Master of the Legion, was one such aspirant. He was finally tracked down by three days after his trial when he lit his beacon fire. His hunting pack, however, never returned, and so another pack was sent to investigate. They found aspirant Cullen sitting by the fire with four dead Astartes around him. He was roasting one on a spit, and knawing on an amputated leg.

>>49465873
Trial 1: the test of the run.
>taken to deathworld. Given location of safe place. Then takenfar away and told to get back to the safe place within 5 days. GL HF.
Trail 2: test of the wilds
>taken to different death/frontier world and told they will be picked up later. They have to survive until the legion returns. Usually a week to a month.
Test 3: the hunt
>taken to complex environment (ruins, jungle, etc) given 1 of 2 tokens. Told they need to find the other of the pair. Meaning only half will make it past this point.
Test 4:
The games
> broken into teams of 3-4 it consists of a long distance race, obstacle course, various matches of skill (shooting, driving, concealment) and ends with a unarmed arena match.

Those that display the sought after attributes are given the "right of challenge"

Any aspirant who has earnt the right of challenge can challenge ANY warhawk to a 1v1. Its rare for them to win, but this is mostly a test of ones mentality. Who they choose, how they fight, what they do against a vastly superior foe.

These matches are a spectacle for the legion and an astarte who is impressed will offer mentorship to the aspirant.

Once the aspirant has a mentor he is considered to have passed the selection.

>>49466850
Right, but given that Faustus ends up colony dropping the moon on the Imperial Palace (and is only stopped by a massive AT field) he could conceivably reposition the moon for strategic benefit.
Otherwise his window of support for Terra will fluctuate daily. Which is cool too. So the question is whether he tries to push the moon into geosynchronous orbit so that way he can support the palace 24/7

>>49467047
I think it makes a lot more sense for him to just time the drop for when he passes over the palace, which I think is in Anatolia?

>>49463538
Kek. "Bestest jungle fighter"
>>49466981
A whole squad of which cant even capture unmodified recruits. So bad in fact occassionally they even lose 4:1s against peasants.

Confirmed Bloodhounds never going to win 1v1 against any other legionnaire.

>>49467022
I like this. Those trials wound instill a lot of individualism in the Crimson Hawks, and the Crimson Hawks are indeed quite individualistic. Good fit.

>>49467089
Does Rambo being a badass motherfucker and ambush specialist automatically make the soldiers he kills into bad soldiers? I don't think so.

>>49467061
Himalazyn Mountains, actually, so probably the Himalayans.

>>49467089
Had the same thought.
>laughing Iron Heart.gif

>>49467128
Yeah, but the whole point of astartes is that they are already Rambo++, like you need to be peak human to even become one. Like what did he do? Make a spear and manage to hit the neck seal and then do something in the split second before the marine clotted?
Did he make a stone axe and pull a Jawa?
Even Belial didn't beat his guy and the Belial story is pretty dumb.
Now, if Cullen hides and leaps down out of a tree, stabbing at the Astartes with a stone knife he made and they sieze him, laughing, that's pretty badass and avoids making the Bloodhounds look like chumps.

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>>49467266
>Bloodhound Aspirants are tossed into the jungles of karach with a knife and a bolt pistol
>bolt pistol

Personally I think it's within the realm of possibility for an extreme badass destined to be the champion of khorne to outsmart four bottom-tier Astartes in jungle terrain with ambush tactics. If other people disagree I'm happy to tone it down.

>>49467340
I think you have to really make it clear that this is an unprecedented thing, and that Khorne's light was on him even at an early age.

Like, this kid must be superhuman.

>>49461124
>Average marine
So, not a dreadnought?

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>>49468142
I'm thinking it happens a few times tops throughout the entire 10k year timeline, and that's not all total annihilations of the hunting pack, just general victories for the hunted, including killing one or two or even achieving a victory through morale and scaring the pack away. There would probably be a title of honor for such aspirants, and Balthasar himself would watch over them in the coming years, eyeing them for command roles.

Bloodborn? Master Hunter? Wild One?

>>49467340
I think its fine. I mean its super rare for them to win right? I can see special chqrqcter eq of dante or drago pulling something like that.

>>49468337
I like the idea of them managing to earn an individual title. Say bloodborne for one who rather than attempt to hide or run. He just lathers himself in animal blood and runs straight at them.
Wild one for someone when caught just goes full on berserk. Getting stabbed and shit but just letting the pain fuel him. Etc etc.

They wouldnt win. But impress the hunting pack with balls of steel. Or maybe get minor wins through stabbing out a hunters eye.

>>49467128
Thanks. Most are stolen from a book i read and the games is from a short story i wrote aaaages ago. Where the MC gets skull dragged through by a hero who once won it by himself. They sort of cheat by jumping off a cliff at the start of the race, landing in water (bypassing the run entirely).

The tests are meant to teach or instill the value of self reliance, the idea that running amd hiding are valid tactics, but also weed out the mentally and physically weak. A lot of the tests indirectly assess wit, resourcefulness and mental toughness.

Then there are team aspects to show that while you need to be able to support yourself, you need to work as a team as well.

Okay, so, I'm gonna start expanding on the list of campaigns within the Heresy, splitting them into separate battles and such.

Are there any notable battles within the Great Hunt and Rubinek's War that should be included?

Raydon, what were the Hawks doing for their penance quest?

Also, how do people like the idea of Klaus and Aodhan being the "superweapons' of each side? They just give me a sort of Michael/Lucifer vibe that I feel could be exploited a bit. I'm thinking they're the guys nobody on the other side wants to run into. It'd explain why the Warmaster is willing to put up with Aodhan's blatant lack of respect.

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>>49468939
Great Hunt stuff:
>Battle of Octarius
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Bloodhounds#Conjunction_at_Octarius

>Battle of Tarsis Ultra
The Void Lords come to Marcus Sinistrum's homeworld looking for aid, and the Bloodhounds come after them in pursuit. Bloodhounds purge most of the defensive forces and forgeworld citizens, and turn many of the manufactorums to slag. Void Lords salvage what supplies and recruits they can and GTFO to Imperium Minorum

>Battle of Constantine
Alexios still doesn't know who's a traitor and who's a loyalist. Void Lord and Bloodhound fleets make war through his territory, and neither has much regard for collatoral damage. The Eyes of the Warmaster keep telling him Faustus is rebelling against the Emperor, and the Void Lords have joined him in defiance. Alexios and Graha'nak face off in battle, and Graha'nak convinces Alexios of the truth: the Warmaster is the true traitor.

>Battle of Kar Duniash
Now facing 2x1 odds instead of 1x2 odds, Balthasar retreats to rendesvous with [some other traitor legion, idk who'll fit] at Kar Duniash. The world is fortified, and defended by some of the best forces at the Warmaster's disposal. Legio Mortis, several regimental guards and Imperial Army auxiliaries, a Naval defense blockade, everything. The Angels and Void Lords assault the world with the full force of Alexios' five hundred worlds.

>>49465873
The Second Sons are probably a lot closer to typical military or even IG training than most, in keeping with their over all theme. Lots of crawling under flaming barbed wire and obstacle courses. They probably run survival exercises and live fire training in the rad wastes of Lorrentia. I also imagine most of their training is done in groups, either companies or squads. Also, actual drill sergeants.

>>49468939
I had them go off to the galactic South. I hadnt fleshed it out desu but i thought the annihilation of some new found xeno. Maybe something that is particularly well suited to fucking warhawk tactics.

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>>49469874
So the Warhawks spend the entire heresy not fighting in the heresy?

>>49468939
For Rubinek, see the harrowing of Tepectitlan section in the Sky Serpents page.

I like the idea of Klaus and Aodhan having their reputations preceded them.

How many marines did the Scions lose during the heresy, considering part of their legion was garrisoned on and around Terra when it all went to shit?

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>>49469300
Most importantly of all though, the Great Hunt takes place aboard and around Graha'nak's space hulk slash homeworld, the Void God. Balthasar sends boarding parties aboard the spacehulk throughout the entire campaign, the ship so massive that packs of hounds and squads of void lords must hunt each other through the dark megadecks. Bloodhound void-boarding parties are typically either jump pack assault squads or the blood red terminator veterans of the first Great Company. Void Lords mostly use terminators of their own, which are able to make great use of the short-range teleportarium at the heart of the ship.

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>>49471175
The approximate sizes of a few of the Legions as pulled out of my ass and based on the OU numbers. 100,000 is sort of the 'standard' legion size, and it tends to deviate by +/-50,000.

Please feel free to adjust or correct.

Oathsworn - 500,000
Second Sons - 150,000
Bloodhounds - 150,000
Storm Hammers - 140,000
Knights Exemplar - 100,000
Judgement Bringers - 120,000
Silver Spears - 120,000
Sky Serpents - 113,000
Angels of Light - 110,000
Undying Scions - 100,000
Fists of Mars - 100,000
Crimson Warhawks - 95,000
Warp Raiders (pre-nikaea) - 90,000
Paladins of Kor - 90,000
Void Lords - 89,000
Eyes of the Warmaster - 80,000
Iron Hearts - 80,000 (pre-purge)
Arms of Asura - 60,000
Iron Hearts (post-purge) - 30,000
Warp Raiders (post-nikaea) - 15,000
Oathsworn (post-heresy) - 9,000

Remember that one chapter of marines, 1000ish Astartes, is generally enough to fight warfare at a planetary scale, with the support of auxiliary troops who basically outnumber the stars.

>>49471832
That would be a fascinating set of battles, particularly since the Void Lords would come into contact with daemons. I'd imagine that they'd have naval superstitions about them and fall back on those.
>>49465482
To jump over to the Oathsworn, I'm thinking once the heresy breaks out in earnest and Terra comes under siege, Faustus pulls out the stops. He'd been figuring that the Emperor and Malcador would bring an end to this nonsense. Kor and Enoch were both fools, but when the magnitude of the betrayal is revealed, Faustus pulls his really weird experiments, the ones that pushed the bounds of acceptability, things of the sort that the Warmaster had accused him of having.
Simultaneously, the betrayal at Cadia doesn't go quite as well as Enoch had claimed it would, with rumors of Oramar's interference.
This diverts the Warmaster's resources from the Sol System, meaning that Faustus gets some breathing room and starts launching meteors to Terra.
This is where we end up with Silent Knights fighting daemons while riding on gene-dragons.
Faustus manages to get in touch with Sinistrum on Mars, but Sinistrum is doing everything he can to keep the red planet from falling as it is.
The Battle for Terran Orbital space is insane, with the fronts shifting based on orbital alignments of Lunar and Terran anti-ship weapons and the positions of orbital plates and weapons platforms. So it is in the skies of Terra that the Angels and daemons fight as stars fall from he the skies.
Battles rage at a thousand forts on both worlds as forces seek ways into the heart of the loyalist centers of resistance and the daemons just keep coming.

That's what's etched into the Oathsworn psyche, visions of a mad battle, holding positions for other legions to take up. It happens, finally, but in the end, the Warmaster infiltrates the palace somehow and assassinates the Emperor, the rest of the traitor legions having done their job and kept the loyalists at bay for long enough.

>>49471917
I think the big legions are too small, unless we're trying to keep total numbers roughly consistent.
If memory serves, the Ultramarines had 250,000, the Word Bearers 200,000+, Alpha Legion ~190,000, and the Iron Warriors ~200,000 even with high rates of attention.
I think the average is more like 150,000 +/-50,000.
Anyways, as initially conceived, the Sky Serpents were one of the bigger legions.

>>49472181
Lord almighty no. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legion#Number_of_Legionaries

>>49472209
Weird. I thought the Word Bearers were the second biggest.
Either way, though, there's quite a few legions with more than 150,000 dudes.

>>49470834
Yes. Thats been around from day 1. Were you not paying attention

>>49472274
Nigga what. There are six, and two of those are in contention.

The number that are within 15k of 100k is potentially nine.

>>49472340
I was ignoring the Thousand Sons, desu. I dunno, I'd put a few legions above 150,000. (And I favor the large Alpha Legion hypothesis.)

>>49470834
Yeeees? They come in during the exodus. So are only there for the later stages. Its pretty critical to why they continue there crusade and dont understand why everyone else is willing to settle down in the east. They didnt go through the turmoil everyone else did.

Or at least, thw bulk didnt. Im sure there were some that did. Like at the tournament of blades and the like.

>>49472340
I think around 100k is the good place to be. If anything bring down the smaller legions if there is a big difference between them and the average.
Ie
>huuuuge legion 250-500k
>one of the big dogs 150k
>big but not noteworthy 115k
>average 100k
>kinda small 80k+
>small. Need more recruitment. 60-80k
>endangered/who are they again. 40-60k
>oathsworn post heresy small. <10k ideally <5k

I think the oathsworn actually benefit from being absolutely tiiiiiny. But it could just be me.

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>>49472181
I agree with anon-kun, your sense of numbers are inflated. More than 100k is a very big legion. 200k is unheard of unless you're specifically known for being numerous as the Iron Warriors and Ultramasmurfs are.

>>49471917
500,000 oathsworn, Jesus... I'll admit to not being behind that legion from the start. Why would the emperor entrust one primarch so much more power than the rest?

>>49472659
Man, I feel like Tyberos is one of the most terrifying single guys in the setting, up there with shit like Chaos Lords.

Who is the scariest motherfucker in this? Daemon Primarchs included I suppose.

>>49472578
Actually, on the subject of Oathsworn, what does Raydon do with his? Does he hide them, or does he take them with him on his penitential crusade?
And how many does he save?

(That's the big reason there's ~9,000 of them left--Alexios smuggled out a bunch, most of whom vanish post heresy thanks to warp storms. Songkulkan interns ~30,000 or something and they get worn down to ~3,000 fighting the Iron Hearts. Then there's Raydon's Oathsworn. And some small number who make it off Luna.)

>>49472662
>Why would the emperor entrust one primarch so much more power than the rest?
Well that's why there's a censure. Emperor and Warmaster are like 'dude you have too many marines, stop it.' and Faustus says no

>>49472701
He sends them away. The less his men know about where they are going the better. But he would only have 2-3k most.

He just gives them what they need and is like,
"Ģood luck. Its probably going to suck out there for you."

>>49472727
Ive always seen the 500k as hyperbole.
They would unlikely have more the 250k at any one time. Which is still x2 the size of a normal legion amd a bit.

I see 500k as what the warmaster tells people they have. He goes to the Emps and says "oh btw luna keeps producing Astartes. By my count they are at 500k even though i told them to stop. Oh and they are practicing gene magics. My agents report he is trying to make primarchs of his own? Whats that dad, treason? Well i guess maybe that's why he is doing it. Better be safe and censure them all. Good idea pops.

>>49472662
It was an accident? But yeah, that's a fair question.

>>49472727
Oh, is the Emperor on board with the censure? I'd been assuming he was occupied enough with the war in the Webway to not have time to look into what Redacted was doing too closely.

>>49472692
There's the obvious answers--daemon primarchs and primarchs in general, but astartes...
The champions of chaos. I think the Behemoth Guard lunatics are probably pretty fucked up, like Kalvas Elsophar.
Cullen of the Bloodhounds definitely.
Graha'Nak's Equerry and the rest of that legion. Save yourself!
Probably a Sky Serpent.

There might also be a Kurtz-ed out Oathsworn who is on a personal vendetta against the traitor legions (and the Paladins of Kor). Drops out of the warp, cleanses a planet, vanishes again.

Almost certainly a creepy-ass Second Son rad-ghoul.

Perhaps a broody Storm Hammer?

Ooh, the Scions have those guys, the Ash Bearers! And the Black Suns.

>>49472862
>too closely
Genocide of the equivalent of multiple legions.

I mean the psychic scream and the appearance of demons near terra might tip him off but hey..

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>>49445325
>visit /tg/ for the first time in like a year
>see this thread
>Eye of Terra
>Dark Imperium

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>>49473252
It is what it is.

>>49472662
>>49472727
I've brought this up before, but Guiliman was hailed as a logistical genius for managing 250,000. Even Rowboat would consider 500,000 too much. How could Faustus have possibly run a legion that size, especially when he's so focussed to his genecraft? 300,000 would be far more 'realistic'.

>>49473452
>How could Faustus have possibly run a legion that size
Well an important part of it is that he doesn't run his legion at all.

Great Companies of Oathsworn are wholly autonomous, and usually join expedition fleets run by the other primarchs or maybe start their own. Faustus just sits on Luna tinkering with his toys, he couldn't give two shits about crusading. There's really no coordination between Oathsworn companies.

What created the Firewall?

>>49473557
Meta answer: The plot required it. We needed a reason for the loyalists to not just get chased down and killed, similar to how the traitors in the OU hide inside the Eye of Terror, in Imperium Asunder the loyalists hide behind the firewall.

Lore answer: When the Emperor dies it creates a sickass stormfront that pushes outward and eastward behind the fleeing loyalists. Eventually it stops, and just sort of hangs there as an impenetrable wall of warp fire.

>>49473513
How was that allowed to go on for so many years? Wouldn't the Emperor have tried to put a stop to Faustus' inaction long before the Censure?

>>49473618
neat

How did you guys think up this scenario initially? I'm not a big fan of chaos so I would have never proposed making a galaxy where Chaos is much MUCH more prevalent. I take it a lot of you guys are indeed big fans of Chaos.

>>49473665
Personally, I'm just a big fan of 30k and the Space Marine legions. The Primarch stories are the most interesting ones the setting has to offer. The 'chaos wins' angle is just a way to shake things up.

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>>49473655
IDK, but maybe there was a major population boom and that's part of what triggered the censure and started it all? Maybe Faustus discovered some new genecraft which allowed him to quickly double the size of his legion or something?

>>49473665
It came up organically from our Warmaster being a sneeki breeki infiltrator. Someone mentioned that such a guy would probably just stab the Warmaster in the back... and we went with it.

>>49473452
i agree 300k is a nicer number

>>49473665
honestly 90% of the story is about the loyalists, and what they do in the wake of the heresy.

>>49473698
yep. I like 30k although i don't like much of the new tech, ie rad, grav, and volkite

>>49473713
On the subject of REDACTED, I was thinking. I believe it was established in earlier threads that his name isn't actually /unknown/, it's just that only people who were alive at the time of the Heresy know it.
I think that's boring, and have an alternative. What if he somehow /destroyed/ his name, erased it from the memories of every person in the galaxy, every book and record, even from the warp itself?
This could account for his relative autonomy as well; without his true name, not even the gods can get a firm grasp on his soul, whatever he did rendering him now and forever his own master.
What do you think?

>>49473889
How would you suggest he goes about doing that though? The only being I could imagine being able to do that is Malal, but then Malal would still know.

On a semi-related note, which legions are dedicated to what Chaos god? I remember the Bloodhounds being Khorne and the Warp Raiders being Malal.

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>>49473889
I like this, but even without it I think the Warmaster should have scrubbed his names from records himself, possibly after Ullanor but maybe even earlier during Terran unification. I think the only people who should have known his name in the first place are Malcador, the Emperor, and his brothers.

>>49473998
Khorne: Bloodhounds
Nurgle: Second Sons
Tzeentch: Behemoth Guard
Slaanesh: Silver Spears
Malal: Warp Raiders
Emperor: Angels of Light

How do you guys feel about the Warmaster being the one to introduce the concept of Chaplains, inspired by Imperial Iterators? They serve as morale leaders in combat, oversee the rites and rituals of warfare, watch out for sorcery, doubt, heresy, etc among their men, and lead propaganda efforts. They certainly look sufficiently spooky with black armor and black skull helms, and we've established the Warmaster wields a Crozius maul.

>>49474039
Does raise a question I asked before, but I didn't get an answer to. What did everybody else call him before he became Warmaster?

I think him being responsible for the Chaplains make sense, though I suppose these Chaplains will be a little more focussed on the anti-sorcery part than the rituals and rites part.

One thing that does bother me about the Warmaster is his physical description. With the black skin and the orange eyes, he just seems like a scrawny Vulkan to me.

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>>49474087
>What did everybody else call him before he became Warmaster?
He should probably have a plethora of other kickass titles too. The Heir, The spymaster, the Eye of the Emperor, Prince of Terra, Mrspookydude, etc.

>I think him being responsible for the Chaplains make sense, though I suppose these Chaplains will be a little more focussed on the anti-sorcery part than the rituals and rites part.
The Eyes don't really have rites so much as traditions and ceremonies, so in that way the chaplains are different. Maybe even a chaplain character who's a null? I fuckin love nulls.

>One thing that does bother me about the Warmaster is his physical description. With the black skin and the orange eyes, he just seems like a scrawny Vulkan to me.
i think it's spooky

>>49474254
Spymaster works well, short and to the point.

Nulls are really damn cool and make for good chaplains, but nulls tend to be kind of Gary Sue-ish. A single null can't hurt though.

Well, sure it's spooky, but it might be a bit too over the top. The pitch black skin is bound to put people off more than anything, it does with the Salamanders anyway. His skin could just be some shade of gray. The eyes could still work, but it might be something he's looking to kind of control. People like being able to make eye contact, and a burning orange haze doesn't quite do the trick.

>>49474478
I am in favor of making the spymaster/warmaster look a little more human. He should be unsettling and spooky, but still look charismatic, in an off sort of way. What if he had greyish skin, and had orange eyes that analyzed you from the darkness, like a cat's, but they looked normal in lit conditions

>>49474519
Oooh, I like that actually.

>>49474478
>>49474519
I dig it

>>49474519
>>49474478
>>49474039
We have discussed the appearances of the Primarchs a number of times, but has their personal equipment ever come up?
I mean things like armor, weapons and personal vehicles.

Another thing that might be of value to those looking to write stories, what are the naming conventions of both marines and ships of the various legions?

>>49474784
Forgot my name, I'm on a different computer right now.

>>49474784
Both these things have been brought up. A few Primarchs have had their gear detailed pretty extensively.

Flagships have come up too. The ones I recall are:

Sky Serpents: Will of Heaven.
Negators: Answerer.
Angels: Brightest Star?
Crimson Warhawks: Brightroar.
Void Lords: The Void God, duh.

>>49474784
Raydon has a pair of dueling pistols and a relic sword gifted to him by another Primarch.

Engerand has his Storm Hammer, a two-handed thunder hammer designed by Marcus.

Marcus has a big red power fist of custom design.

Aodhan has the Widowmaker.

Oramar has a curved Eldar blade, a masterwork shuriken pistol, and a 'wyrdwhip'.

Pretty sure Xun and Grahanak use lightning claws of some kind.

Kashaln, post Heresy, has Sinthorn, a spear of tortured wraithbone.

Alexios has the Codex Astartes.

>>49474848
>>49474879

Has all their equipment been recorded by someone?

And whilst those flagship names are pretty cool, I mean general naming conventions for the ships, not individual ones. Also, I don't think the Emperor would be alright with Graha'nak calling his ship the 'Void God'.

>>49474879
Oh, and Sarco has different weapons for each chassis, I guess.

If I'm not mistaken his Contemptor/Leviathan bodies wield the Baleful Blade and a graviton cannon. The Knight chassis probably has a fuckoff gigantic power sword and a graviton imploder.

>>49474254
Calm down with nulls!!
REEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>49474478
See above.
>>49474784
Raydon has a personal bolter. Nothing super exciting but ue has a metric fuckton of specialist ammos. Also tau stealth suit type artifier armour.

Apart from that he only has a power sword. He later gets a gift sword from aodhan but.only uses it during the crusade forgoing its use when aodhan goes traitor. It does become a relic tho. And there is a cool story abut aodhan raging hard when Kashaln gets his hands on it.

>>49474879
Did i write about dueling pistols. If not, awesome idea. If so, cool also.

>>49474890
Raydon and Aodhan's stuff is recorded on the basic stat pages written for them.

I think some people are still undecided on what certain Primarchs use.

The Void God is the Imperial designation given to the gargantuan space hulk Grahanak was found on. It's both his Legion homeworld and his flagship.

>>49474916
I thought you did? I remember the stat page you wrote up having a pair of pistols that worked as close combat weapons.

I also recall a stealthy set of armor that made all shooting snap fire.

>>49474890
>I don't think the Emperor would be alright with Graha'nak calling his ship the 'Void God'.
The name's descriptively irreverant rather than religious. They don't think it's literally a god. The Emperor lets a legion be called Angels, he's cool with religious symbolism and loves stealing iconography, he just can't abide actual religion.

AOL naming conventions are byzantine greek, their ships and stuff usually have names alluding to light and symbols of pride.

Bloodhound naming conventions are English (as in, like, from England) and they typically give equipment and ships intimidating names. Cullen's command land raider is called the Skulltreader

Warp Raider naming conventions are Arabic/Persian/Berber and their stuff usually has elfaboo names.

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>>49474879
Balthasar has a sick ass power talon whose clawtips are made out of anathame daggers. In battle he'd probably wear primarch-scale power armor, eschewing the slow nature of terminator plate.

Oramar has a monofilament whip he controls with telekenesis as much as his wrist, with a shuriken pistol for backup and mind bullets if even that fails.

When Alexios really commits to a battle enough to actually fight, he does so on his 4 man landspeeder/command platform the Quadriga. When shit gets really really real he fights with a power sword.

Don'Keigh fights with the Konger, a great curved yellow blade.

>>49474784
Aodhán goes through a bunch of different weapons over his career.

Early Crusade: Wields the sword Virago, a relic blade recovered from Nusku that blazes so intensely it occasionally burns its wielder, and Beldam, an antique thermal raypistol that alternates erratically between shooting precise, penetrating shots and wide beams of immolating energy.

Late Crusade: By this point he's picked up Widowmaker, an ancient artifact sword of nonhuman origins and extraordinary power. Shit is extremely cash. He he also has Heart-Taker, a relic spear, which he basically only uses to throw at people. It's considered a lost treasure these days, as he stuck it in Sarco's shoulder joint during their first duel, and never recovered it. Presumably, the Scions have it now, but if they do they're not telling.

M42: Still has Widowmaker, and is slowly turning into a certain bloody handed deity of war. This transformation is compounded by the suspiciously bloody gauntlet he uses as a sidearm, which constantly weeks with fiery vitae from an indeterminate source, much like Widowmaker.

>>49474929
Naa bro. He had a pair of pistols but he fought with his bolter. Tbh i like imagwey of a john wick style primarch with bolt pistol kills left and right

>>49475132
>anathame claw

I love it, even Curze wasn't this edgy.

Klaus: standard two handed relic blade type sword.

Rubinek: I've seen a few different interpretations of his gear, from gigantic power mauls to dual chainfists.

Enoch: I see him having a fatass morning star and some shoulder mounted heavy weapons.

Graha'nak: I think his weapons should be some unholy fusion of chainfist and Heresy era lightning claws. Like, each finger of his gauntlets extends into a chainsword like apparatus, and the teeth are sheathed in a power field. VRRRMM VRRRMM motherfucker.

>>49475509
Mfw primarch downgraded to measley avatar of khaine

>>49475820
Klaus i agree. Badass excalibre equivalent.

Rubinek i see with a powersword extending from a gauntlet. But main weapon is like gatling gun.

Enoch somethig like a mace works

Grasgnak lets be honest is pretty lame doesnt deserve a badass weapob

>>49475826
The implication is that he's turning into the new Khaine, not an avatar.

>>49475955
Uwot

>>49475955
Wait hows that make sense? How and or why would having a sword turn you into a god?

>>49473655
Faustus did all the regular primarch stuff, but like Ferrus, Vulkan and Perturabo he spent a lot of time on these side projects that changed the war. Where Ferrus basically invented all the various Terminator armors and Pertt made the best war machines, Faustus revolutionised medicine and modern science. I'd be a fan of larger legions for other legions too, at least the ones close to Faustus or have large Oathsworn detachments, to represent the discoveries he's made. It's been mentioned the Oathsworn have a couple things going for them as well for their activities. For one, his boys are basically chapter masters as we know them in 40k with their own mini fleets and recruiting bases. Then you add in the adoptive sons of that fall under other legions, who they probably get a lot if love from pre censure because of how much they help.

Second you have the mini detachments that both obscure their numbers while vastly increasing their rep with the Imperium. Pretty much every fleet or rogue trader of note have a Oathsworn present for contact with new worlds to help catalogue stuff and send up data as well as fill honor guard roles. Whenever a new world is found, they send out a ground crew with Oathsworn to do all the inspections for hostility/hability. Plus first contact goes smoother when you have a giant benevolent war god who is immune to small arms fire but brings the cure to space cancer. Oathsworn are boring and vanilla compared to others Legiones and their glory, but when humans think Astartes they think Oathsworn.

Third, the lesser known thing and part of why the Oathsworn don't have as many glories are their destroyer corp. Others have them do rad stuff and phosphex. Oathsworn reduced worlds to sludge and rock. None loved humanity more. None hated the alien more. Their biophages are the stuff of nightmare, and helped give the warmaster work up a fear about the Oathsworn.

>>49476285
The last and worst part was their independence. Even with working on the front, Faustus got a lot of leeway to spend time with his projects. This gave his commanders a lot of time to do shady stuff, which let some go off the deep end with their own experiments. The Warmaster had plenty of things to gather as evidence of OS going rogue, and we might even have past censures of small warbands. The Oathsworn are beloved by the people, but no one really likes or trusts Faustus.

On a side note, I imagine Luna gene-wright culture probably continues in the legion as a secretive order or cult to outsiders like the Mechanicus or Dark Angel circles. A notable aspect of their inner orders is that everyone has a role or archetype they are reborn as Astartes to fill. You're the Hunter, the General n ect. The cults helped resist REDACTED spies during the heresy by being insular and hard to infiltrate, but looked shady and religious as all hell to fellow legiones.

>>49474784
Faustus didn't do personal combat too much himself I bet, but likely had a dizzying array of equipment meant for science but repurposed for war. A narthecium that gives him fleshbane and armorbane with applied potions, a couple destroyer plague grenade gun, and other wonderful. He'd be a good combatant if he was, wel, a good fighter. Compared to mortals he's a god, but against any primarch other than the warmaster he'd get his ass beat. Definitely a buff primarch if this was a Horus Heresy FW model.

>>49476155
IIRC the idea is that

1. It's Khaine's own sword, and it's exerting an influence on it's wielder.

2. He rejected Daemon Princehood, but still got changed, becoming partially of the Warp. The Warp is influenced by belief, and Aodhan is running around with Khaine's sword and a bloody hand... in Commoragh... surrounded by Khaine worshipers.

3. The sword makes him hunger for Avatars to eat or something? Did we ever decide if Aodhan was a canon Avatar eater?

It's a fitting fate for the Primarch that prized his free will above all else, to be slowly but surely changed by the perceptions of others into something else.

>>49476359
I imagine that he'd beat up Alexios. Alexios seems to be the Lorgar of this setting in that he's both super religious and a total runt compared to his brothers.

I actually see Faustus as one of the more physically impressive Primarchs, partially due to his own gene tinkering. Not a great fighter, but pretty stronk and durable.

>>49476432
Is he tht good, to mess with what the Emperor created?

>>49473698
Seconded. I love the scale and the weirdness that ensues.

>>49474784
>Astartes Names
Draw from Chinese, Mayan, and Nahuatl.

>Ship Names
Dragons, Serpents, Jaguars, Heaven, Obsidian, and Jade tend to be common elements over things like Iron Will.
Serpent Lance
Will of Heaven
Wrath of Heaven
Obsidian Lance
Jaguar Lance
Smoke Jaguar
etc.


Behemoth Guard
>Astartes Names
German Daemons?

>Starships
Monsters, etc.

>>49471917
Fists have lower than normal numbers. during the herasy they were all over the place so many got killed

>>49476301
That makes a lot of sense. The Selenar Gene-cults were a big deal, until they got Luna Wolf'd.

Are we thinking they have gene worlds?
Or really a spread of the Lunar Gene cults?

>>49477199
It's all interal to the admittedly large legion. Those that they induct but don't make marines might have an idea of it, but only those in the legion or from Luna itself can be apart of it. Very reclusive an vaguely religious in appearance, but very much a collegiate thing with philosophical trappings. In the end though it's another shady thing kept secret from other as a way to monopoly gene science and guard from the Warmaster.

Ironically it was these suspicions that helped the censuring getting approved.

>>49476454
It shouldn't really be that hard. All the Primarchs have suffered from deviation and mutation. If they hadn't, they'd all be perfect little mini Emprahs. The Emperor never intended for Vulkan to be a fire-eyed shadow man, or for Sanguinius to have wings, or to get a red-skinned cyclops, or for Curze to be a fucking lunatic (or, in this setting, for Anshul to have six arms or Graha'nak to be a spooky xenomorph marine).

Faustus could even just be correcting some of the damage that being flung through the Warp did to him.

>>49476829
Shouldn't they be pretty big now? They have a whole domain and 10,000+ years within which to grow.

And, unlike the Angels/Serpents/Hammers, it seems like they haven't bothered with successor chapters.

>>49478709
Did he have any damage? I mean hell, he just went to the moon. Then again redacted is all weird despite being found on Terra.

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So, PRIMARCH FIGHTS. What do we have?

Xun vs Rubinek
>Location: Tepectitlan
>Victor: Xun

Rubinek vs Balthasar
>Location: Pelagos
>Victor: Rubinek

Engerand vs Enoch
>Location: Cadia
>Victor: Engerand, though he loses a leg

Engerand vs Aodhan
>Location: Vanaheim
>Victor: Aodhan, but Engerand escapes and blows up their battlefield

Sarco vs Gengrat
>Location: Armageddon
>Victor: Sarco

Sarco vs Aodhan
>Location: Malphas
>Victor: Unfinished, though Sarco's dread is wrecked

Sarco vs Aodhan 2: Electric Boogaloo
>Location: Terra
>Victor: Aodhan

Klaus vs Kashaln
>Location: Sabbatine
>Victor: Klaus, but both survive with injuries

Klaus vs The Warmaster
>Location: Terra
>Victor: The Warmaster

Daemon Prince Gengrat vs Marcus
>Location: Mars
>Victor: Gengrat

Raydon vs Oramar
>Location: ???
>Victor: Raydon

Raydon vs Aodhan
>Location: On top of a battleship, in space
>Victor: Unfinished

Raydon vs The Warmaster
>Location: I dunno
>Victor: Kashaln, kinda?

Anders vs Kashaln
>Location: ???
>Victor: Anders, but it's just sparring, nobody dies

Anders vs Kashaln: Round 2
>Location: Luna
>Victor: ???

That what we got so far?

I propose that Graha'nak battles Balthasar during the Great Hunt.

Also, it'd be cool for Anders and Marcus to have an encounter with Faustus during the early days of Luna's censuring. Anders tries to duel him honorably to end the conflict with as few casualties as possible, and while he totally out-skills Faustus, he doesn't count on the genesmith gassing the fuck out of him with paralytics and kneecapping him with a swing of his aesculapius staff. Marcus rushes into save his brother and smacks the shit out of Faustus, who retreats with his Marines laying down a hail of covering fire, cursing at the top of his lungs and screaming that they're both fools to trust [redacted]. This is what causes Faustus to just retreat completely into his fortress, lock the gates, and chuck gene-sorcerey at anyone that comes near.

>>49479158
As cool as that would be, I think Faustus would never go hand to hand against another primarch. He'd spend his time cranking out abominations and fixing his men, unless we can get someone to infiltrate Luna. Maybe the Warmaster sneaks in and their fight triggers shit to fo full chaos on Terra?

>>49479252
I'm thinking this would be before hostilities break out, or very soon after, with Anders and Marcus trying to call a ceasefire. When Faustus starts being all autismo stubborn up in their faces Anders is just like "Fucking hell, fine, I'll cut you down and bring you back to Terra, and then we can all get on with our lives."

Faustus having to be dragged away from the meeting with a big busted lip from Marcus' power fist would be what makes him just shut the gates completely and tell anyone who knocks to go fuck themselves up the ass with plague dildos.

>>49479302
I think that could work, though I kind of feel Faustus is a community project like the Warmaster. Very influential, but stays in the background rivalling the other.

>>49479448
True. I think quite a few Primarchs are community projects at this point though.

Rubinek and Grahanak definitely are.

I think we need to give a few of these guys more feats and interactions with their brothers. Guys like Sarco and Aodhan have multiple battles with other Primarchs, Saul has his big tragic fall, Alexios has his squabbles with his brothers, etc.

>>49474784
Saul has a huge radium gatling gun and back mounted missile launcher with fire and forget seekers. He kinda attacks like a Cabal Colossus from Destiny.

As for Second Sons names? I haven't been able to get a something I'm happy with for ships, but the people are a mix of Colonial American names and Hebrew/Biblical names.

>>49479158
>I propose that Graha'nak battles Balthasar during the Great Hunt.
They should also probably fight and something but of note, on Constantine Graha'nak and Alexios actually duel each other. Graha'nak obviously wins, but he doesn't kill Alexios, and that's what finally convinces him the Void Lords aren't the bad guys.

>>49479619
I'd rather fill out major battles for the legions than the primarchs. The Oathsworn really have Faustus and Terra for character. Like do any of the primarchs have trusted Oathsworn in their cadres in their command squads?

>>49479302
I really like this idea. It makes a lot of sense given the characters involved, since Kor is totally the sort to press every button Faustus has. Though I don't think Sinistrum is there that early, isn't he in pundits when issues on Mars break out?
Instead it's Enoch and Kor on hand, with a Cadre of knights exemplar?

>>49479698
I think that makes a lot of sense. Commander Ehud.

>>49480070
I'd imagine that Gengrat and Xun both keep genomancers on hand. Alexios might too, depending on how his relationship with Faustus is. Either they're close or they're too stubborn to deal with each other. Conflict of ego.
I also imagine that the second sons keep some on hand to aid with biowarfare.

Likely, the second sons and the Behemoth Guard are dumping grounds for undesirables and the unstable elements.

>>49480070
>>49480497
Alexios always backed the Warmaster in the WxF rivalry, which lasted all the way back to the pacification of Luna. Consequently he always kept Oathsworn at arms' length. He probably had a few, but less than other legions more friendly to the oathsworn.

When the Censure breaks out though, it's too much. To Alexios' mind the Oathsworn haven't done any heresy on the scale of the Iron Hearts or the Warp Raiders, so why must they be purged? However, it's extremely important to him to at least appear loyal to the Warmaster, so he starts purging most of them while spiriting the few he can off to Cocytus, an icy ball of nothing as far out in the eastern fringe as stars can go.

I originally envisioned Enoch using a giant, fuck-off unwieldy greatsword, aping the 'executioner' angle of the Judgement Bringers, and also because I just really like big swords... Maybe it would be more unique if he used an axe? I didn't dislike the mace idea. Open to thoughts.

As for JB naming conventions, well Enoch's flagship was given to him by Emps and called Inheritance, but besides that they've got a mishmash of names. I'm look to play up the biblical angle more though.

What legions don't have a dedicated sponsor for them?

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>>49481473
While I've always been a proponent for people not feeling like they "own" or are "in charge of" writing particular legions, this is still a useful question. Here's a list of factions that don't seem to have anyone actively writing for them:

Feel free to ask for more info about any of them.

>Eyes of the Warmaster
I think we've agreed that these should be community run due to their narrative significance and potential for gary stueness. We don't want anyone to get a big head.
>Oathsworn
In early threads the Oathsworn caught a lot of flak and the anon who came up with them unfortunately left us.
>Fists of Mars
The anon who created them has said he can't post as much as he likes and would like someone else to take over
>Void Lords
Community run, OP never stuck around
>Knights Exemplar
Made up by the community, never had an OP writer in the first place
>Warp Raiders
I've been stewarding these dudes but they could use more dedicated attention
>Iron Hearts
The anon doesn't post here anymore though he's working on painting some models for various legions
>Arms of Asura
Is VANTH in charge of these dudes? I'm not sure
>Behemoth Guard
Xun has been stewarding these guys but just like the WRs they could use a dedicated anon
>Angels of Light
I actually wouldn't mind someone taking these dudes if they find them interesting, and leaving me with just the Bloodhounds.

NON-ASTARTES:
>Resurgent Eldar Empire
>ORKZ ORKZ ORKZ ORKZ ORKZ
>Tyranids?
>Other weird shit

>>49481979
We really haven't done a lot with orks, but honestly I can't imagine that they'd change much.

>>49482258
There's Kaoz Orkz in the grey stars which periodically WAAAGH against the Crusader States, and we haven't even talked about WAAAAGH: THE BEAST

>>49482289
I've been meaning to ask, how do the Angels of Light feel about the Scions atheistic ways? Have I made it clear how much they've swallowed the Imperial Truth kool-aid?

>>49479158
>raydon v oramar
It could he cool to have them fight around a city scape. Or ruins of a city.

>raydon v warmaster
Somewhere just out of the sol system. Maybe even at a space station? Or on a ship.

>>49481979
>Knights Exemplar
>made up by the community.
The rudeness. I made them for Klaus. They were a spin off of a chapter i created for a Deathwatch game. I mean i never intended to write for them but.. i donno. That hurts man.

>>49482442
DESU I pretty much missed that whole thread. I showed up the next day and suddenly there's a new primarch.

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>>49482384
>atheistic
THE GOD EMPEROR IS MY BEACON REEEEEEEEEE

>>49482494
The Emperor is dead, Alexios. We can only hope to carry on in his memory.

I see the Scions as relentlessly dour sons of bitches.

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>>49482536
Then why can my Abbots bind angels into people's bodies, Sarco?

I MEAN, UH... I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING OF THE SORT. EVERYTHING HERE IS PERFECTLY NON-HERETICAL.

>>49480578
Ah, that makes a lot of sense.

>>49479158
>Kor and Faustus
That seems plausible too. Either way, I think the reason Redacted sent Kor was specifically to ensure that things escalated.
I think Enoch should be there too as a safeguard to ensure things go titan up.

>>49480837
I'm loving that flagship name.
An executioners axe certainly fits his MO.

>>49474784
Gengrat has a pet transport named Ancalagon, handmade from a Mastodon and a Stormlord.
He might also have a massive hammer, but I'm not sure on that one.

>>49481979
>Is VANTH in charge of these dudes? I'm not sure

I've made up most of their fluff, but I consider them a community project.

>>49482289
It's been brought up.

I still think one of the early Crusades should be the Crusader States reacting to the damage The Beast does on his rampage across the Imperium.

>>49482587
I like the idea of Alexios being confronted by one of the Daemon Primarchs during a Crusade and forced to use some of this secret sorcery stuff to get out alive.

"Oh Emprah preserve me I fucking hope nobody's watching this" sorta thing.

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>>49482964
>I still think one of the early Crusades should be the Crusader States reacting to the damage The Beast does on his rampage across the Imperium.
I agree. Let's take another look at the crusades and maybe fill some more in? There's five left with no concepts.

>1st Crusade
Failed crusade for Terra
>2nd Crusade
Loss of the Maelstrom Zone
>3rd Crusade
Reclamation of the Maelstrom Zone
>4th Crusade
WAAAAAGH: The Beast and fallout?
>5th Crusade
???????????
>6th Crusade
Xun's Ascension
>7th Crusade
????????
>8th Crusade
????????
>9th Crusade
The Void Dragon's return
>10th Crusade
??????????
>11th Crusade
?????????
>12th Crusade
Paladins vs Angels
>13th Crusade
End Times

>>49468939
>how do people like the idea of Klaus and Aodhan being the "superweapons' of each side?

Obviously, I'm okay with this.

I think it'd be best if subverted a little. Like, everyone, Aodhán included, expects them to eventually have a climactic duel from which only one walks away. But it never happens. The Warmaster kills Klaus. Aodhán never gets his greatest victory. In the grim darkness of the 31st millennium, nobody goes away with what they came for.

>>49483052
7th crusade could be rumors of a massive secret lab of Faustus, which would likely have a huge effect on any legion.

>>49483052
11th Crusade... maybe the Blackstone Fortresses?

>>49483236
The Blackstone Fortresses are retaken by the Eldar at some point, but one of them is destroyed by the Undying Scions.

>>49483091
Yes!!

>>49483107
Like on Lost Luna? Carcosa! Can we call the fortress monastery Carcosa?

It might be rumored to be have been drawn into the webway or the warp in a massive gellar field, cast adrift and protected by the greatest of the Silent Knights?

>>49483052
One of the ones before Xun's Ascension should be the one where the Firewall flickers and goes out in a certain area, since that's what forces Xun to go raid Prospero in the first place, which then sets him down that path of the ascension.

>>49482587
HAHA. BINDING A SERAPH TO AN ASTARTES? RIDICULOUS.

...wanna meet for recaf later and share notes?

>>49483272
>One of the ones before Xun's Ascension should be the one where the Firewall flickers and goes out in a certain area, since that's what forces Xun to go raid Prospero in the first place, which then sets him down that path of the ascension.
That's all part of the 6th.

>>49483376
Ah, I'd been thinking that there was a crusade in which he got the idea before actually going and ascending.

Maybe during one of the earlier crusades, he uncovers a cache of texts and does something that sets him on that path.

>>49483272
The King in Rags and Tatters would like to have a talk with whoever decided to use the name of his kingdom's capital and thank them for remembering. And then give them utter, mind-consuming insanity for stealing it.
The Yellow King King in Rags and Tatters is also a piece of Calixian legend, speculated to also be one of the Seven Devils of Dread Calyx. Yes, FFG managed to do a lot with the sector while they made DH 1st edition.

>>49483503
Oh, shit. So much for naming the lead engine of Legio Seraphicus 'The Hounds of Tindalos' or 'Choir of Thuban' King in Yellow...

>_<

>>49483503
I meant to ask you about the lord of dark fire, Balphomael. What do you think the Ash Bearers would have to say about him?

>>49483272
Luna is hanging over Terra waiting to crash majora's mask style. I think maybe an old oathsworn ship thought lost in the heresy, now a giant Space Hulk. It is on a route along the line of the firewall, forcing a massive crusade to keep the genestock from all those ships from being claimed by either force.

>>49483625
That I can't say for certain, but most likely see the daemon as an abomination. It's mostly a dealer, though: Boons for sacrifices and devotion. As far as anyone can tell, it has no other plans but to grow in power.
>>49483567
Well, it's one thing that King in Rags and Tatters "exists" in OU (Whether Dark Heresy is canon or not is questionable), but in Imperium asunder, he might not exist at all.

>>49468939
Interesting take, I'd never considered Aodhan to be that top tier. Then again Raydon and Aodhan were close, so maybe i've only been seeing the character through the eyes of another character.

>>49483091
Does Aodhan think he could actually take Klaus though? Or is it more of a 'there is no shame in being beaten by the best' kind of deal. He just wants to see if he can do it.

>>49483376
Yeah thats what I was tracking.

>>49483773
That sounds like something the Hawks would want to destroy. Might be one of the only crusades where they actually bring their entire weight to bear.

Could be cool, going from 'pesky pirates and raiders' to 'holy fuck they are actually still a big ol' legion..' moment.

40K is defined by stagnation. No side seems poised to achieve anything.

This setting however seems grossly set in Chaos's favor. Did Imperium Asunder throw 40K's eternal stagnation to the wind? Are you guys just going to take this alternate history yarn wherever it leads regardless if it just ends with Chaos winning in a few years?

>>49483927
Actually, we could see a very goid parallel between the Hawks and the Oathsworn who appear in their biggest numbers since the heresy. They want to get their shit back, Hawks want it gone, and every wants a spacehulks worth of gene seed and genuine Faustus research.

>>49483962
Which leads to the next questions.
1: What is the total number of ASTARTES that a crusader state, or chaos faction can bring to bear in the 40k timeline.
2: What can they realistically bring to bear, seeing as most of them are not factions/warbands/chapters with their own leadership, plans, etc.
3: What is the total NON-ASTARTE force they can bring to bear.

Im imagining something like.
Angels of Light
>1000 - from the legion
>30 successor chapters
>18+Legion max in a crusade, having to leave behind others to defend and maintain their empire.
>Hundreds of regiments, a moderate to small war fleet.

Storm Hammers
>1000 Legionnaires
>20 successor chapters
>16 + Legion to a crusade
>Dozens of regiments, a moderate war fleet.

Behemoth Guard
>20k Astartes split across various warbands
>Hundreds of thousands of conscripts, cultiests etc.
>Warmachines out the wazoo
>moderate war fleet.

Oathsworn
>5000 marines
>dozens of mercenary bands
>Tiny fleet

>>49483953
> grossly set in Chaos's favor
yes
>re you guys just going to take this alternate history yarn wherever it leads
Yes
>with Chaos winning in a few years
This is something a lot of new people don't quite get. Chaos isn't "going to win" it won.
The heresy ended, Terra is gone, the loyalists literally had to run and hide. Their is no going back. Different characters/factions have their "end game myths" which they tell each other to feel warm at night. But this is the stagnation that chaos wants, the vast majority of the universe is repressed under the Warmaster, the rest live in a constant state of war. Their existance allowed only to fuel the warp.

>>49483052
>4th Crusade
>WAAAAAGH: The Beast and fallout?

I'm okay with this.

I like the idea of this big fucking ork just coming along and giving the Warmaster a gigantic headache.

>>49483927
>Does Aodhan think he could actually take Klaus though? Or is it more of a 'there is no shame in being beaten by the best' kind of deal. He just wants to see if he can do it.

Really depends whether people want to go with the idea of them being roughly equal or not. I do kinda like the Michael-Lucifer aspect brought up, since I based Aodhán a little bit on Milton's Satan - "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven" and all that.

Ultimately, whether one is better than the other would be unanswered anyway, since they never get a chance to fight. Or if they do, they never manage to have a battle to the bitter end.

>>49483953
I get the impression that Asunder has thrown a lot of things to the wind.

One thing I'd like to bring up on that note is the Legion number stuff. I know it's said the Roboute was a tactical genius for coordinating 300,000 Astartes, but... there are IG generals that coordinate forces of millions. There are real life authorities that achieve greater coordinative feats than that. I'm not really for the Oathsworn having 600,000 Mehreens or whatever, but it seems sorta silly to think that you can't organize 300,000 men at once. People do that all the time, and they do it with forces far less competent than the virtual demigods that are Astartes.

>>49484128
I don't mind the Michael Lucifer aspect, its pretty cool really especially since as you say Aodhan is based of Satan and Klaus is based off Sanguinius who was a jesus proxy IIRC.

I guess likewise, Michael is the one to defeat Lucifer so it doesn't conflict with the idea that Klaus was the pinnicle of Primarchyness.

>>49479158
Xun fights Kashaln right after the Heresy is revealed at the tournament.

Xun gets away and Kashaln gets mad.

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>>49484122
>Chaos isn't "going to win" it won.
Oh. Well would there be an alternate alternate history where the opposite happens? Where Chaos losses? Might a setting where the Emperor slew Horus outright be interesting to write about?

What does the Emperor having so little faith in his sons say abou thim? What kind of man would that be rather than the man/god that had too much faith in his sons and perhaps humanity at large that the Imperium remembers? What if Horus was right and the Emperor wanted to become an actual god and keep the power for himself? What if the Emperor becomes a god or leaves to fight Chaos in the Warp such that the Imperium is left with no Emperor and no threat of Chaos? What if because it has no significant threats for so long it Balkanizes into many minny Imperiums who war with one another?

Just spitballing here.

>>49483953
Canon 40k is grossly in the Imperium's favor. The heretics hide in the Eye of Terror or the Warp and fight among themselves more than they fight the Imperium.

This is just that dynamic reversed. The loyalists hide in the east and fight among themselves more than they fight the Imperium.

>just ends with Chaos winning in a few years?
Chaos won in M31 when they killed the Emperor and turned Terra into a daemonworld. This setting is about the fallout of that victory.

>>49484279
All interesting, but this all pretty much started from a 'make a primarch thread' and then we discussed how the new primarch would interact, and found that there were more traitors than loyalists, and if that were the case, the Heresy would actually work.

From there we just kept rolling.

>>49484279
>Oh. Well would there be an alternate alternate history where the opposite happens? Where Chaos losses? Might a setting where the Emperor slew Horus outright be interesting to write about?
...You mean canon? That's literally what happens.

>What if Horus was right and the Emperor wanted to become an actual god and keep the power for himself
Personally I believe this is true in the canon universe. I very much buy the story the ruinous powers sell to Horus and Lorgar.

In our setting, however, it's canonically not true: The Emperor knows he could achieve apotheosis, but he refuses to consider it because of his beliefs about religion and the Imperial Truth. Oramar, however, is lead to believe by the Xeno Kabal that the ONLY way for humanity to survive Chaos is if the Emperor ascends so that he can oppose them as a new warp god of order. While the Heresy is a complex web of motivations, one of the primary things which get it started is Oramar plotting to get the Emperor killed in a way that will force him into godhood whether he wants it or not.

>>49484122
>>49484279
>>49484330

Says the rancorous Raydon. You weren't there, when the galaxy burned. You weren't there on Cadia, when betrayal was revealed. You weren't there on Terra, when the skies split and the daemons poured forth. You weren't on Tarsis when a Primarch's homeworld burned with only the black plate of another legion to protect them. You weren't on Tepectitlan, when Xun slew Rubinek.
You were off fighting Xenos, you and your honor. Where did it get you, Raydon?
The Civil War, this Heresy isn't over. It will never be over. Not until the last traitor lies dead at our feet or the our legions are wiped from this world. Even then, we fight on in the Emperor, for even now, the Legions of the Damned fight the daemons in the warp itself.

The warp won. That is clear. But the war for the warp continues. The Emperor has ascended and he needs our blades.

>>49484083
>Behemoth Guard
20k Astartes seems a bit odd. The legion gets its own territory to rule and has the favor of the changer of ways. Given that the Black Legion seems to hit a million marines, I'd think that the Behemoth Guard gets bigger, rather than smaller.
In addition, so far as Auxiliae and cultists, a hiveworld would have a population potentially in the trillions. Even modern Earth could support a military force of several million easily, so I think any of these dominions is going to have a military force in the billions, at least.

>>49484279
After we get further with this one!

>>49484330
The Imperium hasn't made any progress in 10,000 years and is always on the brink of collapse due to some huge threat: Chaos Tyranids, or menacing Necrons. What matters is which side has achieved all its goals or is set up to achieve them the soon. In canon 40K everyone is stuck where they are and nothing will likely ever change. In Imperium Asunder Chaos is either about to win or has already won and just apparently farming the remaining non-Chaos humans for warp turbulence.

>>49484398
>You weren't there on Terra, when the skies split and the daemons poured forth.
[Oathsworn flash back intensifies]

>>49484388
>...You mean canon? That's literally what happens.
Chaos is still a threat and every 40K thread I've ever been in over the years has had people who told me that Chaos will ultimately win no matter what. By Chaos losing I mean losing totally and finally such that Chaos is no longer a significant threat in the same way in Imperium Asunder humanity is no longer a threat to Chaos.

>In our setting, however, it's canonically not true: The Emperor knows he could achieve apotheosis, but he refuses to consider it because of his beliefs about religion and the Imperial Truth. Oramar, however, is lead to believe by the Xeno Kabal that the ONLY way for humanity to survive Chaos is if the Emperor ascends so that he can oppose them as a new warp god of order. While the Heresy is a complex web of motivations, one of the primary things which get it started is Oramar plotting to get the Emperor killed in a way that will force him into godhood whether he wants it or not.
... So that is what happened to the Emperor in this setting? He got backstabbed because xenos tricked this Oramar guy into thinking doing so would create a god, when in reality it just killed humanity's only hope?

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>>49484486
>Chaos will win no matter what
>Listening to Carnac

>>49484398
>Raydon
>honor
Not a word I would have used to describe him, but I guess he is all about doing whats right.

> this Heresy isn't over.
Not in character or anything, I think its important as the creators of this universe we confirm that while the characters might not consider the heresy "over" it is. I think its an important thematic classification. The war is over, because as long as it isn't over, the Loyalists can't have lost it. If that makes sense.

>behe guard
At first I was confused by this as well, but thinking about it. Lots of the Traitors would struggle to replenish their ranks due to the warp corruption in the Dark Imperium. Chaos would be rampant, tainting them. And the Behe Guard in particular would suffer from their experiments.

>Black Legion seems to hit a million marines,
i think that is the recruitment from outside legions/chapters but i didnt know they got that large.

>>49484548
>The Heresy is/n't over
That was oddly phrased, but I get what you're saying. I suppose I might phrase it as 'the heresy is over', but chaos hasn't won, quite.
The Warmaster's rule is tenuous, the traitor legions tolerate him, not obey him. The Chaos gods weary of his antics.
Meanwhile the Emperor has indeed ascended and is currently waging a war in the warp, a war he can quite possibly win.
In some ways, the Warmaster may well want the Emperor to win that war, or at least gain the upperhand, since that will make the chaos gods need him again, and it will weaken their cult legions, leaving him in command.

Basically, I'm thinking the Warmaster is an unstable element in the system and because of the 10,000 years of stalemate, the Emperor may actually be able to have an ascendancy in the Warp, which wouldn't defeat chaos, but it would put the East on parity with the West.

Also, if the chaos legions have shrunk that dramatically post-heresy, then it may well be that the loyalists outnumber them, which is weird, and would force the Warmaster to rely on a daemon-blitz, a risky tactic considering his relationship with the big 4.
Really, I like the idea that the loyalists can pull of "not losing" by basically fulfilling Lorgar's vision of a warp-bonded humanity, albeit with the Emperor as the deity.

>>49484165
Yep, that is a pretty essential part of the imagery.

But yeah, even if he knew for certain that he wasn't quite as good as Klaus, Aodhán would still try. The way he sees it, every move he makes is a greater victory than any of the other Primarchs have achieved. It doesn't matter if Klaus kills him - what matters is that he made a choice. He sees the choice to side with the Emperor (or to worship Chaos) as no choice at all, and by his estimation, that's the same as never having been alive anyway.

A man lives for himself, a slave merely exists for others. Servitude from his perspective is equivalent to death, to being a lifeless automaton.

>>49483052
Fists here, id like one of those Crusades to have the fists bring out one of their super weapons to just stop something dead in its tracks or to push through really hard past the firewall

>>49484698
Sorry for phrasing.
hmm, I think its important to distinguish between the Warmasters goals and the Chaos Gods goals.

The way I see it, the chaos gods have everything they want. Rampant worship, eternal conflict, repressed mankind. - There endstate has been achieved, and because they are in such a dominant position, the "emperor ascendant" is never going to be a match for them. He maintains the firewall, which they allow because without it the loyalists would all die - which is not something they really want. They thrive off conflict.

The Warmaster just wants to rule his empire and crush his detractors - ie: the Crusader States. So while the Warmaster might have a tenuous grasp over the Traitor legions, that only serves the 4 Gods.

I donno, I think its critical that
>but chaos hasn't won, quite.
is put to rest. To make this a story not of 'we can make a come back' to 'we need to survive another day'.

To change context entirely, if this was a zombie movie. The movie wouldn't be about trying to find a cure, it would be about trying to survive. Almost mad maxesque.

>smaller traitor legion sizes
>well be that the loyalists outnumber them,
I think we should just make everyone smaller. Like the post you linked to >>49484083 has the AoL at 19k Astartes deployable & the Stormhammers 17k deployable, which is less than the Behe Guard.

I think having the factions be around 50k strong by and large (which admittedly is larger than that poster recommended) is a good idea. Increasing the reliance on humans as the transition from 30k to 40k. Which mirrors the OU canon nicely.

>>49484754
I like the idea of bringing out a super weapon that crushes a chaos push into the East. But either breaks or maybe Alexios or Xun attempt to steal the schematics, and end up just breaking it.
or go a more traditional route and have the Warmasters agents screw with it, so the next time its used it back fires.

>>49484754
>>49485018
I was thinking its a one and done bit of gear, i use it and its wasted

>>49485080
that works too.

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>>49484486
>when in reality it just killed humanity's only hope?
oh no dude, it works. The Emperor is a sixth warp god.

We just try to be subtle about it.

>>49485018
I dunno, I still like the idea that the loyalists might just be able to achieve their goals 'defeat chaos', 'defeat the Warmaster', or 'allow humanity to survive', but to do so requires ever increasing acts of madness.

Again, I keep coming back to the Emperor Ascendant. Same way that in Deathmasque, they might have been able to kill awaken Ynnead and beat the crap out of Slaneesh by temporarily killing every Eldar, I like the idea that a joint group of Abbots and Serpents is preparing to sacrifice the population of several sectors to power up the Emperor. So you can accomplish one and only one of these goals. You might just be able to defeat chaos, but it might require you working with the Warmaster and dooming humanity.

So I'm proposing that 'success' is achievable at the cost of insanity. The stalemate is better than the alternatives. Unfortunately for everyone, everyone is running their gambits.
Otherwise the setting has no arc to it. We might as well stop in M31 with the establishment of the Eastern Imperium. There's got to be some sort of big deal thing that's happening in M41.

>>49485126
How is Chaos getting everything it ever wanted "subtle"? Nonexistent is what that is.

Slaneesh's birth mind raped a trillion Eldar and turned the entire Galaxy into a warp storm. Shouldn't the birth of the Human God of Order lead to, like, the opposite of that rather than Chaos utterly winning in every way imaginable?

>>49485184
I like those ideas as "in universe" ideas. Things they tell each other and work towards, but aren't every going to come to fuition or even would work if they could.

>Otherwise the setting has no arc to it.
Well thats just a false dichotomy.

>There's got to be some sort of big deal thing that's happening in M41.
I disagree, there doesn't need to be some "big thing" I think the setting works well as an examination of the little things that affect the characters. Its all relative, to a crusader state what is "big" would be considered trivial to the canon Imperium. Its a matter of perspective.

Whats more, we do have the 13th Crusade. Which is for all purposes the 'big thing' that is rocking the setting.

I think its fair to say, much like the normal setting, this isn't going to progress past M42

So having the loyalists 'win' isn't really viable anyway.

>>49485239
His ascension causes a rip in the fabric of the universe called the Firewall, which lasts 10,000 years.

And even after he has ascended its still 1 on 4. Why on earth would him ascending just be an instant win for humanity? Like what?

>>49485184
>>49485397
I say go with the 'no way to win' version. I see this setting as a realistic version of 40k, or rather 40k if the humans didn't have plot armour.

If it becomes we become monsters to beat monsters it loses all appeal for me. The idea of loyalists working with the warmaster is also retarded. please dont do that. the setting will die faster than hektor if you do that.

>>49485416
>Why on earth would him ascending just be an instant win for humanity? Like what?
For one thing the Emperor was a presence in the Warp to be reckoned with by the gods of Chaos even as a human. Him going full god could very well make him the most powerful single warp entity to ever exist. You would think that would mean something instead of humanity utterly losing in every way imaginable.

I mean, I get the hole thing consuming Terra, but I can't believe Chaos could win so hard if Humanity had an actual god on its side. If I had to salvage this alternate scenario, then I'd say the Emperor isn't a god yet. He is gestating. Much like how the the lead up to Slaneesh's birth caused galactac wide warp storms the lead up to the Emperor's birth created a 10,000 year long fire wall protecting humanity. Come the year 40,000, the Human God of Order will be born and Chaos will get BTFO in the Milky Way.

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>>49485397
>Whats more, we do have the 13th Crusade. Which is for all purposes the 'big thing' that is rocking the setting.

Yeah, that's enough.

Everyone can have their plans and win conditions, but we're not moving beyond M42. The point is to flesh out a whole setting, not give it an ending.

By the way, what would people say is the Asunder version of pic related? That one moment where the Emperor just couldn't contain his dickishness and set into motion his own demise?

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>>49485239
>Chaos getting everything it ever wanted
Chaos doesn't get everything it ever wanted, where did you get that idea?
The Warmaster got everything he ever wanted. The Warmaster won, not Chaos. Chaos lost. Chaos is fighting the human equivalent of Slaanesh, a newborn warp deity of order and arrogance and xenophobic hate. The Warp storms of old night shake the galaxy for many years afterward, with only Malcador's warp beacons lighting the way between worlds.

The Warmaster conquered the galaxy and destroyed it in the process, and now he's a laughing madman on a throne of ashes and lies.

>>49485461
I don't think they'd actually work with the Warmaster, I more meant that that'd be the scale of the nonsense that it would require.

I have to say, I prefer the humanity to have the chance to win, but only if they become the monsters. That's part of what I like about the OU. They might just be able to pull it off, if they give up everything that makes them human in the first place.

>>49485397
See above, but also
I mean that if there's nothing to be achieved, nothing that will be expanded upon, then why carry out the plot to M41? Unless we're doing the sort of 'stories have no beginnings or endings' sort of deal, then there ought to be a reason we are progressing to M41, and I think a logical and good thing to do would be to have everything leading up to some sort of climactic 'ending' or what have you. We don't get there, but I think from a fluff perspective, it should be the kind of thing where we could write a range of endings, say 'Warmaster End', 'Jade Empire End', 'Angels End', 'Oramar End', 'Anshul End', with each of them having the titular party pull off whatever it is that they're trying and for them all to be equally plausible. Some of them will be long shots, but there ought to be some sort of thematic thing that we're working towards and, I think in the spirit of the OU, it should be open ended.

As a result, I think the 13th crusade should be crazy and grand, a supreme finale for the issues started 10,000 years ago.

A chaos victory may well be the most likely outcome, but I think the plot arc of each group should have an avenue of satisfying conclusion. Of course, we don't actually spell it out, and there's no 'true ending', but possibilities.

>>49485633
>>49485461
>>49485397
Basically, >>49485606 says it pretty cleanly.

>>49485629
That too. Though I think we'll debate the semantics of the Warmaster's status, he's kind of the ultimate winner and loser.

And back to >>49485606
>Supreme Dick Moment
You know, I don't think there is one in this setting, unless it's making the Warmaster Warmaster.
In this one, Oramar just ends up deciding that the Emperor has to die to defeat Chaos and Warmaster, in his ambition, goes along with it.

Oramar did kind of actually deserve his censure. Rubinek really was a mutant with an unstable legion. Faustus got dicked over by the Warmaster, with the Emperor possibly being stuck fighting in the Webway and thus unable to check on things.

>>49485397
So basically, to sum up from >>49485693 directed specifically to you as my primary interlocutor, I think the debate we're having right now should be one that theoretical players would have about the setting for decades, with no single official answer. They'd ask Bligh and get one answer, and ask Priestly and get another.

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>>49484279
>>49484398
>After we get further with this one!
I wouldn't mind starting a new canon again in a seperate thread, on top of this one of course. I might have some fresh ideas.
Imagine starting a fresh thread from the beginning with a consecutive sort of order to it. Instead of being all over the place after trying to unite a loose 'make your own primarch' thread, what if we started with a fresh canon in mind. First thread would be primarch discoveries, major battles of the crusade and such, etc. Then we'd talk about seeds of heresy, war breaking out, and so on. Construct it all organically, like, I dunno, a communal quest thread.

>>49485585
>could make him power

>He is gestating
yet another pissy answer giving the idea that the good guys are going to make a comeback. As Raydonanon has been saying this setting shouldnt be the same as the canon with its abundance of "SOOON I WIN" this is beyond that. This is better. This is them having already lost. Its done.
>Human God of Order will be born and Chaos will get BTFO in the Milky Way
gaaaay

>>49485606
>Everyone can have their plans and win conditions,
exacltly. they can talk about it, they can dream. But its never coming true. This setting is about humanity losing not winning.

>>49485633
Xun you're a primary contributer and im a faceless anon, but
>That's part of what I like about the OU.
Should stay in the OU, this is an AU and this is the best thing about it.

>>49485816
>Xun you're a primary contributer and im a faceless anon, but...
Primary Contributors with handles are just faceless anons who took a name to be less confusing.

But you're still wrong. And I disagree with you (and Raydonanon). If it's about humanity losing (which, I'd argue that sinking the Eastern Imperium into the warp to join the Emperor is still humanity losing), then I think we should write to the end and have it end with the fall of humanity.

Anyways, if we keep it open ended, it really doesn't matter anyways. It's academic, like the true nature of the Emperor.

>>49485808
At one level, I love the idea, but I don't know that now is the best time for that. And I think the board would kind of go nuts over that. Unless we did it on /qst/... Though at that point, it might just be worth it to play a game of Microscope in a forum about this notional Heresy AU #3.

>>49485633
>at if there's nothing to be achieved
except stories? Im not sure I understand this. The constant conflict required to keep alive and a society from collapsing has plenty of room to move from where I sit. I mean, going back to mad max, thats what his story is about, and the stories of the characters he meets.

>Warmaster End', 'Jade Empire End', 'Angels End', 'Oramar End', 'Anshul End', with each of them having the titular party pull off whatever it is that they're trying and for them all to be equally plausible.
I think well have to agree to disagree, cause that sounds confusing in general just not like something im interested in at all and the idea that each is equally plausible is just... 'icky' to me.

>>49485808
While im not opposed to this per say, it should be noted that quest should be moved to qst and that as with any community project, by splitting it into 2 similiar but different aspects (eg: dota, hon, lol) you inevitably dilute the pool of contributers, splitting them, and diminishing how much they can contribute to any one project, effectively weakening all of the projects. --- Just considerations.

>>49485816
>This setting is about humanity losing not winning.
As with OU, EVERYONE loses in m42. 40k at its core is about the final days of reality itself, It's the last, dark milennium. The end times. Factions have goals and plans, but in the end, war and death and entropy consumes all. It's apocalyptic in nature.

In M30 humanity loses. A few threads dangle from the torn tapestry and scatter into the winds. In their memory arises a god of hate and fury and anger. What follows is a ten thousand year death throes consuming the galaxy. What's important to keep in mind about Oramar's plot to turn the Emperor into a god is that, while the apotheosis worked, Oramar was very, very wrong about what the God Emperor would truly be like. There is no such thing as a benevolent warp deity. The Anathema is a being of hate, of superiority, and of raw destruction. It's not really the Emperor anymore.

>>49485923
One idea ive been tossing about is that, if the Emperor became the god of order.

Then apart from Alexios boys who actively worship him (giving him strength) the crusader states wouldn't help him much, being so fractured and busy with infighting.

The Dark Imperium however, is as ordered as one could hope. The Warmaster has everyone under his thumb, everyone knows their place and doesn't try and leave it.

So in an ironic twist, the Warmasters Dark Imperium would be probably the main source of power for the Big E in the warp. Thoughts?

I feel like we've ignored the necrons outside of the ninth crusade. What kind of things do they get up to with the current galactic climate? Do we still have characters like Anrakyr and Trazyn or should we make new ones?

>>49485983
i dont see why they would change. but we can add new ones

>>49485955
...What if that's the Warmaster's deal from the start? What if HE is the chosen of the God Emperor, and his spooky 1984 priesthood is a chaos cult of the warp god. I mean, fuck, they live on Terra, it makes sense. Terran 'humans' and dark imperial citizens could worship the emperor as, like, king or highest of the warp gods?

What if the Warmaster isn't so much ambitious as fiercely zealous? He believes the Emperor is a God, and when the Emperor tells him he isn't he takes that as confirmation. A truly noble god would deny his divinity, wouldn't he? He knows the Emperor won't achieve his divine apotheosis willingly, and as what he sees as loyalty, he forces it to happen.

What if he thought he was the good guy?

>>49485693
>Rubinek really was a mutant with an unstable legion.

Well, consider, the Emperor did promise that he wouldn't purge them. And while he doesn't like Dark Age tech, there's technically nothing wrong with enhancing Marines with it - in fact, pound for pound, the Iron Hearts are better soldiers than your average Marine.

>>49485629
>deity of order and arrogance and xenophobic hate
>31K
You are losing me, anon. The xenophobia and hate came later.

>Chaos doesn't get everything it ever wanted, where did you get that idea?
This guy >>49484122.

I-Is the Dark Imperium not aligned with Chaos? Why else would there be Chaos marches on it's periphery?

>>49486005
Then we end up with 2 character playing the 'i was on this side the whole time.' card.

I mean, it sort of invalidates oramar I think. I donno, im still evaluating xuns take on things, reevaluating life choices etc.

>>49485909
Sounds good to me, since I think we'd just end up arguing about Mad Max. >_<

>>49485955
>>49486005
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YE YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

>>49486039
Wasn't the Iron Heart itself tainted? I thought the issue was that the augmentation was weird, after all, the Emperor didn't purge the World Eaters even though they were a much greater liability.

>>49485816
>yet another pissy answer giving the idea that the good guys are going to make a comeback. As Raydonanon has been saying this setting shouldnt be the same as the canon with its abundance of "SOOON I WIN" this is beyond that. This is better. This is them having already lost. Its done.
>this isn't "SOON I WIN"
>this is "I WIN NOW"
>this is somehow good
I don't follow honestly.

Also other posters are saying Chaos didn't win.

Tell me what needs to be done with the Scions so that I can brainstorm on it tomorrow and write some stuff up.

>>49486104
That's a fair point though. And >>49486080 has a point about the xenophobia and hate, we're talking about a guy who offered Xenos protectorate status, after all. The Emperor isn't nice, but when you're playing for the stakes he is, you can't afford to be nice.

I'm going to think over this one and see if there's a way to make the Warmaster going in for the Emperor's divinity work.

Oooh! What if he realizes he's got a shit deal with the 4 and starts trying to institute worship of the Emperor, relying on the gambit that he's having the people call him emperor and because the name is the same, it'll work for The Emperor. It's not his goal from the start, but he's an arrogant son of a bitch and figures that as a warp entity, the Emperor is just one more tool to be used.

>>49486140
More unique successor chapters?

>>49486080
>The xenophobia and hate came later.
No he had that from the very beginning. The Emperor was super racist and hated xenos and believed more strongly than anyone else in human supremacy. He was a mad warmonger from the beginning.

Don't forget, the Emperor is literally hitler.

>>49486185
I think it just works with the Warmaster being a bad guy, and him not grasping the idea that he is inadvertantly fuelling the Emperor Ascendant.

I don't think it needs to be part of a 'greater' plan or anything.

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>>49486211
>heretical lies

>Chaos won
>Chaos didn't win
>Chaos lost
I'm getting the impression that there is no central authority on what is actually going on here and each of you just makes stuff up and says it a bunch of times to see if it sticks.

>>49486316
Well ofcourse there is no central authority.

As for the later, sort of yeah.

In regards to chaos, clearly im on a different page to the other posters, unfortunately that particular topic is what I find most interesting about the AU. So thanks for bringing that topic up.

>>49486278
That also works.

>>49486211
Debatable. I'll just leave it there otherwise we're going to spawn another debate about the nature of the Emperor and that can only end in tears and black library publications.


So...
Gengrat and his homies.
What did people think of the idea of him hijacking a lost Tyranid hive fleet?

Is Elsophar good for the Herald of Tzneetch?

Speaking of, do we have one of those for the Plague Father? (And the Ponce of Pleasure?)

>>49486354
>So thanks for bringing that topic up.
Oh no problem at all. I also find the large scale stuff like that very interesting. However it kind of seems the general interest is more centered on the motivations of primarchs and everything else is therefore pointless fluff that shifts as it needs to.

>>49486476
Mostly correct. I thought we were all on the same page regarding the central themes and such however.

>>49486356
>otherwise we're going to spawn another debate about the nature of the Emperor and that can only end in tears and black library publications.

Thissss.

I believe that before we get onto all this stuff about endgames and super tweeeests we should be mapping out what occurs throughout and right after the Heresy, then moving from there.

By the way, we still just calling it the Heresy? The Great Heresy? The Black Heresy?

>>49486867
Agreed, anon.
I think it partly depends on where you are. The Jade Empire considers the Heresy to be ongoing, while I think the Scions might well speak of the Heresy and then the Long Vigil.
Certainly the Chaos Marches probably consider the heresy over, which gives us that delightful weirdness of the loyalists being veterans of the long war.