MTG Story and lore thread

Weird how a W/R character, of all color pairs, brought up the life drain powers.

Try as she might, not even Nissa could bring down an AEtherborn story.

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>>49449848
It kind of fits mechanics wise, WR when put together makes accidental lifedrain effects all the time.

Plus I bet there's legal ways to go about getting some extra life.
>"Hey, obviously corrupt consulate. Got any criminals that need executing today?"

>>49449884
Fuck, even Nissa was pretty good here. I can't say she was boring or anything of the sort and helped the interesting focus character be interesting

>they pronouns

Tumblr.

I don't care if it's an inorgaic thing if Transformes taught me anyting is that even robots either have big boobs or testosterone

>>49450076

I think it's a typo or a snippet from an old version that carried over.

It referfs to itself as "I" the whole time, even during internal monologue

>>49450076
>>49450163
They/their is used all over the place, even if it's technically incorrect according to the Chicago Book of Style.

>>49450076

They is a perfectly acceptable gender neutral pronoun. Far better than this "xi/xir" or whatever similar crap.

>>49450163
That's called writing in the first person, anon.

The aetherborn use they as a singular third person pronoun because it is not gendered and aetherborn don't have gender.

>>49450076
Oh please don't start this up again.

>>49450076

I'm fine with the aetherborn lacking gender, it's a cool race trait. I just wish English had a better singular no gender pronoun than "they".


>>49450163

Nah there's a few times in story where people talk about other aetherborn, they use "they" pretty consistently.

>>49450316
The genderless singular pronoun is it/its. It's just that English-users have a thing about applying a pronoun used for objects to people of an ambiguous or indeterminate gender instead.

It's why MtG uses the 'he or she' and 'his or her' wording on its cards, and in other situations where the individual is of an unknown gender.

>>49450316
>>49450492
"They" just sounds better than "It" anyway.

Whatever happened to the official wednesday lore threads??

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>>49449784
>nothing to shitpost about

>>49450558
Ravnicanon seemed to sort of move on with his life or something and no one picked up the slack in his pace.

>>49450283

Actually a singular "they" has been in use since the 14th century, so if it is incorrect it's by very modern standards

>>49449784
I would have liked aetherborn even more if they didn't have the lifedrain power.

Now it seems too easy to have an evil aetherborn.

>>49450584
It was used incorrectly back then, in that case. There's been no instance of it technically being correct, no matter how much it's been used.

Accepted, yes. Correct, no.

>>49450316
>I just wish English had a better singular no gender pronoun than "they".

I'm sure (((((Wizards of the Coast))))) agrees with you.

>>49451070
Well duh, they're the black aligned race. They have to have something that makes them obligatorily potentially evil/justify life drain effects on black cards.

What's telling though is that it's rare. Most aetherborn can't do it. And here's one who can, who doesn't want to use it, which makes him flat better than someone who can't do it at all.

>>49451159
One day, you see a cat you don't recognize wandering down your sidewalk. You have no way of determining the owner's gender.

Which of the following do you think?
>I wonder who lost his cat.
>I wonder who lost her cat.
>I wonder who lost their cat.
>I wonder who lost its cat.

>>49451193
>who doesn't want to use it

except the whole last bit of the story where they were arguing among st themselves


>I'd drained essence (once, accidentally) before; it felt amazing. I could do that again. I could do that again a hundred times over, if someone deserved it.


that is a real slippery slope of who does or does not deserve "it"

>>49451078
That's not how language works.

>>49451263
Just because someone said something once upon a time, doesn't mean that the way they spoke was correct.

>>49451234

That's exactly what gives the story character.

A being that can tell exactly how much it has going to live, that it can expand that at the expense of others, and that, at least from now, restrains for it

>>49451234
Well they knew what it was like. They COULD, they know it, they acknowledge it, they could even find ways to 'justify' it, easily. But they don't. They choose not to.

>I have other things to do with the time I have left.
Was the choice of words, but it's basically saying. Even without life drain powers, his monologue was basically "I could just kill this guy. I don't like him, no one would notice and I have an alibi." That could be thought by anyone. He has the power to, but decides "Nah. Not worth it."

>>49450558
They evolved into the "snowstorm" threads.

>>49451470
Making your own shitty OC snowflakes was a fun distraction for a little while.

Now it's gone on for far too long, has a circlejerk of namefags built around it and a troll dedicated to shitting up lore threads because of them.

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>>49450571
this

>>49451510
Nobody likes phyrexia. Not even Tezzeret, and that was your only chance to get off New Phyrexia before Karn nukes you with the naya suns of artifact destruction.

>>49451500
It died and came back because in the end, no one has anything better to do with their time until they die.

>and a troll dedicated to shitting up lore threads because of them.
Vronak is just the new Chandere. Nothing ever changes.

Aether Revolt is just going to be anarchic aetherborns, right? At least we would have monoblack villains with decent motivations

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>>49451228

I say "his." I consider the default human a man. Why? Let's just say I am an optimist :^)

>>49451626
Well the consulate is shitting on everybody at the moment.
>Restricting the use of aether to pretty much just the rich or influential or who they're patroning
>confiscating inventions
>at least three corrupt individuals in high places, one of which is Tezzeret, and the other is a dude that thinks he's evil robocop
>Punishments stricter than the crimes committed
>They're about to fucking take everyone's inventions
The consulate is about to shit on literally everyone and they'll have no one but themselves to blame.

>>49451707
>Hoping the owner of a cat is a man.
That's just sad. A dog I sort of understand, but a cat?

>>49451078
Yes, because you have more merit in the English language than say... Shakespeare

>>49451609
>Chandere
please don't utter the name

She(?) may return if we aren't careful.

>>49451228
I say their. It's a pretty easy decision.
Their is possessive without specifying gender.

>>49450316

whats wrong with "they"?

>Wheres Xorblax?
>They are on their way.
>Oh cool.

>>49451936
The chicken has no power anymore.

>>49451228
>Which of the following do you think?
Dinner

>>49452144
Best Korea, please.

>>49449784

http://sarpadianempiresvol-viii.tumblr.com/post/150734861394/todays-story-was-whorrible-yahenni-is-totally-not

>>49453129
Yes, we're all impressed with anon forgetting he was on tumblr before shitposting.

>>49451907
No, but he has equal standing. Language evolved over time, and Shakespeare's usage of the English language is considered archaic now.

>>49453433
But if something was okay in english when Shakespeare did it, and it's been okay ever since, why would it not randomly be okay now?

>>49453478
Not everything Shakespeare wrote was perfectly grammatically correct, even for back then. He was a playwright, not a scholar of the language.

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>>49449784
There's plenty to shitpost about.
>Wizards unironically using singular "they"

>>49454719
>image makes fun of nonstandard gender-neutral pronouns
>post moans about commonly-accepted gender-neutral pronouns that have been in use for hundreds of years now
Well, which is it, Anon?

>>49454758
Singular "they" is generally used to refer to a nonspecific person, not a special snowflake who wants to be neither man nor woman.

We need to put the nonbinary meme in its place.

>>49454719
Using 'they' even though technically not correct it still better than any of the made up SJW horseshit, or saying 'he or she' which just sounds clumsy.

>>49454783
>Singular "they" is generally used to refer to a nonspecific person, not a special snowflake who wants to be neither man nor woman.

This is not a thread about transsexuals, this is a thread about fantasy nonsexual beings referring to each other using a nongendered pronoun other than "it," because the connotation in English is well known that "it" is only used to refer to nonsapient things. If you want to bitch and moan about your eternal SJW boogieman, you can fuck off to /pol/ if you will.

Honestly, what do you fucking expect them to use? Would you sincerely rather that they make Aetherborn perceive and treat gender as a purely social construct? Because I've got a feeling you'd be just as triggered from that as well. So, again, which is it?

>>49454848
I wouldn't mind if some random fuck like Gonti is a dude. He's a "lord," he's broad as fuck. People call fuckin Optimus Prime a he, why not the magical energy being?

>>49450076
Kid,that "they/their" thing for gender neutral subjects has been around for a long,long time. Not all the shit in this world is Tumblr's fault; also,it seems fitting,since the aetherborn themselves seem to lack any personality trait asociated to gender, or even secondary sexual traits.

See,this >>49450316 anon gets it. "It" is more for inanimated or non-sapient subjects.

Now,about the story, I liked it very much. I couldn't help but imagine this Yahanni as a Freddy Mercury voiced,Ruby Rhod styled character, transpiring charisma through every crack.

>>49450076

A few points:

The connotations associated with "they" can read more organically than "it." Sometimes when identity of something or someone is meant to stay hidden, it adds more variety to use "they" instead of describing it every damn time.

Not what's going on in the stort, but thought I'd still mention it.

My other point: FUCK you if you're one of those blind motherduckers who refer to Monasterg Swiftspear, Tireless Tracker, Drana, OLIVIA etc as "he." Bitch, could you not identify a pair of 2d tits for your very survival?

If you're not, though, we good.

Also, comma splices, bitchhhh

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/magic-story/homesick-2016-08-29

Has anyone read this fucking story?
It reads like parody. It's insane. I can't even work out what to think about it.

Beefslab?

>>49454863
Because there are feminine transformers apparently: See RC.

>>49455043
Chandra was bad, Liliana was lowering herself to get in good with Chandra, Gideon is trying to keep his terrible idea working, Lavinia's whipped Jace, Ugin hasn't been told about Emrakul, Sorin, or Nahiri, and Ral Zarek should be having an aneurysm by now.

Gideon and Nissa were the good parts of that chapter by far, which is really saying something.

>>49455068
>>49455043
Nissa's writing has improved dramatically since MUH ASHAYA came to an end and she left Zendikar behind.

>>49451744
Personally I think the Consulate is shutting on everyone and everything because Tezzeret (and to a lesser extent, Bolas) is influencing them to have its inventors try to figure out inter-planar travel after the Mending.

And the Aetherborn are a byproduct of the Consulate's increasing corruption and squeeze for power, because holy shit, sentient Aether, what the hell man? And they can drain life essence (even if maybe 5% can do it)?

Anyone else get a kind of Great Gatsby vibe from this story?
Yahenni throws these big, pointless parties to get noticed, but in the end they'll die and be forgotten within a month.

>>49455043
I can only assume it's because the writer is new.

I really liked this story.

The aetherborn are really interesting.

I hope Nissa goes to his party in a month. ;_;7

>>49455886

This. We actually had a lot of discussion about this back when that particular piece came out. A little research showed that Chris L'Etoile has actually been around for a while, and has been a high level plot writer at wizards for some time.

But that's the problem. They write high level, overarching plots and make creative decisions. They do not write prose.

If you break down the Homesick story, all of the major beats are generally okay. Its their implementation that sucks because Chris has no idea how to write the dialog for these characters and outside of a few scenes he only really has one narrative voice.

I don't blame Chris for that article. I blame either whoever told him to do it or approved him to do it if he volunteered. This is clearly not his strength, and he should not be writing these kinds of stories.

There are different kinds of writers, and this isn't what he is good at. So don't make him do it.

>>49456060
Their, not his.

Stop projecting your biology, fucking Consul-loving aetherist.

>>49456060

Nissa realized that Aetherborn as effectively elementals, which are her specialty. I wonder if she can 'fix' one?

Kaladesh is, aside from their amazing artificey, a pretty low magic plane. They don't have a lot of casters running around. There legitimately might not have ever been someone with Nissa's skill on the plane before.

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Phyrexian invasion of Ravnica.

>>49456218

Phyrexia can't invade until they get their hands on the planar portal tech that just now being invented on kaladesh.

Which I expect will be Tezzeret's fault.

>>49456218
fuck OFF already, Jesus Christ not even Tezzeret gives a shit about Phyrexians anymore just shut up about them
goddamn nornies

>>49456159
Sorry, getting used to the pronoun usage.

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Kaladesh/Aether Revolt story will end at Yahenni's final party where Chandra and Nissa will finally hook up thanks to Yahenni playing matchmaker and being able to see they've got the hots for each other.

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>>49456236
>Jace! You must save your plane while you still can! Nothing is left of mine but a festering abomination.
>Koth, Boros Commando

>>49456268
>Yahenni asks for a final kiss from Nissa
>Nissa's kiss injects tons of aether energy into Yahenni, making them a planeswalker

>>49456298
>Yahenni asks Nissa for a kiss since as she has no mouth she's never been interested before
>About to die, why not
>They do it
>Yahenni thinks its lame and goes to go snort aether coke

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>>49456278
>Koth
>Giving up on Mirrodin
>Ever

>>49456278
>Koth giving up on Mirrodin
>Koth, not being the first example of a 'heroic' RB character.

>>49456153

Okay, I accept this.

It's typical WoTC policy to walk up to whoever vaguely has time and be like "YOU! You're from Creative, right? Oh, IT? That's great! Write a story where The Gatewatch is just like the Breakfast club. Gogogog."

Can we both agree that Mei Li's writing for Renegade Prime was a mess, and Doug Beyer really needs to do more work on characterization and dialogue?

I know he's improved a lot since Alara Unbroken, but that was back in 2009 or whatever...

>>49456359
>>49456331
>WotC caring about established lore

>>49456218
Never, because they wouldn't be able to do a block that has the ten guilds AND Phyrexia in it.
Ravnica is the ultimate safezone from planar invasion, because its entire identity is wrapped in the guilds, and the guilds need so much space in the block that any other major theme is impossible to work into the block.

I enjoy reading about the flamboyant aetherborn for some reason.

>>49455043

I actually like the idea of the planeswalkers having a moment off and just sitting around enjoying the world. It adds a little bit to the world when they're not just fighting.

>>49456367

I got the impression that there was some kind of miscommunication among the writers regarding Renegade Prime, possibly because most of the magic lore stories are standalones or have timeskips between them, but this one was supposed to happen mere seconds after the previous short.

Because there clearly wasn't a correct level of coordination between the ending of the previous and the beginning of RP. Nissa is suddenly just there as if she always has been, and the events really just don't line up.

>>49456836

Agreed. You can easily milk an entire story of Jace and Lili having banter. And they are clearly setting up a 'Chandra and Nissa form a bromance' arc. Nissa is used to dealing with Zendikar, the super mad plane of elemental rage, so Chandra is honestly probably a good standing for her planefu. And I can totally buy Chandra being fascinated by the fact that Nissa is so goddamn serene, which is something that Chandra has trouble imagining much less being because she can't hold all this red color identity.

Gideon is the Reinhardt of the team, but without the Catchphrase. Maybe he can can have totally not gay wrestling with Ajani after they go back to Theros and tag team the gods in APOCALYPSE IN NYX, ONE NIGHT ONLY! NO RULES, NO JUDGES, NO GODS. TWO PLANESWALKERS ENTER, THREE PLANESWALKERS LEAVE. GET YOUR TICKETS AND YOUR BOOSTERS NOW!

>>49456935

I wouldn't mind them having a bromance. I hope they don't make them lesbians for the progressive points though.

>>49449784
God damn were nissa's tits always so perfect or is that artistic liberty?

>>49457069

I don't think they will do that, its just /tg/ screaming LESBIANS whenever two female characters so much as look at each other.

>>49457165
There's a reason why some anons always rant and rave about her Joragas.

>>49457173

Oh, I don't know if this is something people are already pissed about. It's just something I wouldn't put past WOTC I guess.

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>>49457165
Nissa's joragan mana batteries have always been pretty great.

>>49457221

Too bad nobody will ever draw good MTG porn.

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>>49457221
Damn

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Is sentience the only thing that separates an aetherborn from an elemental; some of which are similarly short-lived?

>>49450283
>it's technically incorrect
A native speaker can't talk incorrectly (even if he can make 'mistakes' which he will most likely correct himself quickly because they don't conform to his dialect) as the way he speaks is the definition of how to speak that language.

>ywn live fast at an aetherborn party

>>49459406

It's not clear.

Weirds are a similar not-quite an elemental creature type, so it's not unprecedented.

Anyway, I'm amused by how protoss aetherborn are, including psychic abilities, but lasting much less than a thousand years.

Having them not be randomly gendered is nice.

.... I wonder how you would voice them in an audio format.

>>49450076
>use of the word "they" is tumblr
They literally don't have any semblance of a gender. It's not gender politics, they're made of fucking magic gasses.

>>49456278
>Implying Boros.
>When Koth would clearly be the Rakdos to New Phyrexias Bant.
you pillock.

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>>49459406

>>49460487
Erin Campbell does literally every Aetherborn.

>>49460784
>>49456359

Mirrodin resistance is clearly Boros.
Niggas are only necessarly alligned with Black colorpie in real life

>>49461292
What the fuck, why would anyone be confused about this? Elementals are beings manifested with specific forces of magic. Incarnations are the same only their bodies work like enchantments once they die. Avatars are higher beings brought down into the physical plane. And Spirits are obviously just dead people.

>>49462225
But "incarnation" literally means "something which has been made incarnate," as in, "a higher being brought into the physical plane," which you've used as the definition of "avatar." But an "avatar" is actually a representation of something or someone that is not actually that something or someone: an online avatar, for example, is not actually me but a representation of me. The same is true for mythological avatars, which is why the term "avatar" was adopted for that purpose in the first place. You're already confused yourself.

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>>49462225
And actually, although "Spirits" could simply imply "dead people," as it does on Innistrad without exception, it has not been used consistently as such throughout Magic's history. Variously, it has been used on clearly nonhuman "spirits" (Blinking Spirit, Ice Age/9th), whatever Darkling Stalker is, cloud spirits (Cloud Spirit, Stronghold), giant-yelling-black-worm-with-wings (Bellowing Fiend, Tempest/7th), angels (Angelic Page, angel spirit, Urza's Saga/8th) (Angelic Curator, angel spirit, Urza's Legacy), and even dryads (Carven Caryatid, Ravnica). The presence of weird ones in core sets is particularly notable, as is their printings in recent expansions. Is Diviner Spirit (Commander) clearly a dead human being? It has about six faces! Foul Familiar, Fire Spirit, Furnace Spirit... I'm just going to stop here. I was honestly on your side at first, but the guy's right: there's a LOT of variance in how Magic uses "Spirit," and the other terms as well.

(Kamigawa block also featured the kami as Spirit typed creatures, none of which were formerly dead people. I could make a special case for those guys, though, because I don't really know what typing would suit Shinto-style animist spirits better.)

The creatures from the cycle of dual-colored 5 hybrid mana Shadowmoor/Eventide creatures are also all typed as "Spirit Avatars," which clearly indicates that there's some kind of overlap at play. There's also this, which is clearly nothing at all like a dead human being, or even very much like what I would associate with any "elemental" forces, yet it is an "elemental spirit."

There's even an Avatar Incarnation, "Personal Incarnation," last printed in 5h. Obviously, this means my earlier genetic arguments about what "avatar" and "incarnation" mean in Magic don't hold water, but this clearly demonstrates that there's no consistency in Magic's typing with regards to Spirits, Elementals, Incarnations, and Avatars.

>>49461503
It was W/R, but Norn now controls the WUG of Mirrodin, leaving the R and B.

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>>49462749
I don't think the colors of the praetors even matter all that much. WR is defense of order and enforcement of law. BR is anarchy.
Fuck you I won't do what you tell me
>>49462225
>>49462402
>>49462660
I'm pretty sure that was bait, but yeah. Creature typing is more art then science, with inconsistencies everywhere. The eidelons of Theros are spirits, despite never having lived.

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>>49462885
Oh well. Even if it was bait, I still had a good time looking up all those examples and making those posts.

>The eidelons of Theros are spirits, despite never having lived.
Actually, Eidelons are the "spirit" halves of the Returned, the bodies of which return to Theros as zombies. I almost used those fellows as an example myself, but then I remembered that bit of lore and stopped myself. So yes, they have lived, pic and flavor text related.

>>49462660
Elementals are usually based on Eelementslikefire, water, air, with Lorwynmor being an exception since they also had elementals based on concepts which is another strike against it

Spirits are typically non-physical beings maade of mana, usually a dead person, but any 'ghost' type thing is usually a spirit. It may be bound to something, but it doesn't have to be. Typically the spirit avatars from shadowmoor gained their spirit typing for being phantom beings of myth. The same applies to kami. This is the loosest typing here because it's definitely the "when in doubt" one.

Avatars are manifestations of one's power through some aspect. Serra Avatar, Avatar of Might, Avatar of Fury, etc.etc. all just manifestations of something else. Typically avatars are unthinking, more in line with forces of nature than living beings. Avatar of Slaughter only appears when shit is about to/is going down. They should have been Lorwynmor's non-flamekin elementals, but I guess there was already too much tribal to add avatar tribal, or its a sign that those elementals aren't just localized concepts of some kind of power or concept like their names imply. Either way, WotC hates the plane for a reason

Incarnations seem to be more like avatars of weaker concepts, tied to aspects that drive biological things to preform the things that lead to greater avatars. Enough people have Anger that it leads to Slaughter for instance.

But most of your flavor mixing up is entirely Lorwynmor's fault. Drop that set like WotC has and everything goes back into order.

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>>49462938
Reading over the flavor texts, it does seem to imply all eidelon are lost souls. I was wrong, my apologies.

>>49462885
And you don't think Koth is anarchist against Norn's law? Alternatively, it's freedom at all costs. Seeing as how Koth's last olan was to nuke the praetors and forced Elspeth ro planeswalk or die, he's certainly not doing much in thei way of white mana.

Besides, there aren't any plains left for him to draw mana from. Norn has them all. He has mountains amd swamps though. Those are still out of her control.

>>49463015
I was agreeing that he would be RB over RB, if he isn't still just R. Also, by that logic no lands would be usable to him, as the praetors and their pawns have taken over the plane.
>>49462982
War elemental

>>49463098
>>49463098
*BR over RW

>>49463098
Avatar of War would make more sense but that's definitely some older stuff before they got what the types meant down themselves.

As for the lands: Norn has destroyed the R and B phyrexian factions and assimilated the G and U factions. The forests and islands are hers, while the mountains and swamps lay empty.

>>49462982
>>49463202
Celestial Ancient
Animar
Ominath
Doomgape
Embodiment of Insight

Also, Norn put down the factions, she didn't wipe them out. Source that the mountains and swamps lay empty? And how does physical location affect casting in lore? Chandra and the other walkers can weave spells on Kaladesh,.even though the flow of magic is different and measurable magic energies are regulated. The only apparent warping of mana is done by specific enchanents, the tomb of a pre-memding entity who was above even the walkers in raw power, and the eldrazi.

>>49462982
>Drop that set like WotC has and everything goes back into order.
Aside from all the non-Lorwynmoor examples I already posted from Ravnica, Ice Age, core sets, supplemental sets, Urza's Legacy, Urza's Saga, Stronghold, Tempest, and Kamigawa, you mean?

And that's only from the first 100 results on magiccards.info, mind.

>>49463354
Even newer sets like the maze cycle from Dragon's Maze and Roil Elemental from Zendikar

>>49462660
I really wish this was a legendary card

>>49463338
Land is still typically the source of mana. Whenever they go into detail on casting, like when Elspeth needed mana to planeswalk, she grudgingly bonded with the mana

>Put down the factions doesn't mean wipe them out.
Where do you live that 'put down' doesn't mean 'completely removed', 'killed' or anything else of the sort?
>Factions that live in swamps and mountains are 'put down'
>Why would they be empty?

Can Aetherborn become walkers? Do they count as "living" for the purpose of sparks? Would they live longer as neo walkers?

>>49451293
actually, that's literally what it means.

>>49463480
~we don't know~

They are a new addition to the lore, and until WotC introduces a aetherborn planeswalker or mentions the impossibility, we have no idea.

Unless they have, and I missed it.

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>>49463473
America, where when the Whiskey Rebellion was put down by federal troops with only 4 of the 200ish rebels were killed.

And again, what restricts the an a from the land? Simply being the dominant power doesn't allow you to cut everyone else off from a mana source. Otherwise, how would the gateless on Ravinia exist, especially in heavily moderated areas like those under Orzhov and Azorius control?

>>49463338
>>49463354
Now try posting an example from this decade. In fact, we can go further back than that: Anything from Alara onwards.
>Omnath
Omnath is a localized elemental made of Zendikar's pure untamed mana. He's the same as Ashaya, the tree made by Origins Nissa

>Animar
That doesn't look like the localized mass of elementals to end all localized masses of elementals to you?

>Embodiment of Insight
It's literally a land elemental and the 'insight' it's embodying is literally the fuckhuge hedron that's keeping it running and providing it and land creatures you control with 'insight' which is just Vigilance in this case

>>49463547
Then you're fucking stupid if you mean 'put down' means anything other than 'kill, arrest, or otherwise remove a problem'
You put down a rebellion, you put down your dog. That doesn't leave much living.

You can't really stop people from bonding with the land. It's just not really possible to do on a large scale.
Plus the Izzet are pumping power and mana across the city to keep it running

>>49463547
Koth wouldn't want to use white mana. There's nothing for him to gain from it. The resistance, if it still exists, isn't centralized enough to fight large scale white vs white battles. It has to use any means necessary deceptive tactics. Fucking supply lines, assassinating the praetors, both things that white wouldn't be the color of mana to do, but black would. Assassination via fuckhuge bomb is definitely Rakdos, not Boros

Plus according to Elspeth, bonding with phyrexian lands made her sick to her stomach. Koth would probably be downright too stubborn to use it.

>>49463638
Also, in the last Eldritch Moon story, Nissa had trouble bonding with Innistrad due to it's darker mana. Hell, it even tried to kill her for trying to tap into a leyline

>>49463547
4 killed, more of them arrested, and most of them dispersed and ran away. The riot was suppressed, not put down.

The difference is phyrexians don't run away, and don't take prisoners to leave alive. They take resources. Their prisoners are later flayed for resources. The idea that you can compare the whiskey rebellion to a faction of phyrexia is laughable because phyrexians don't self preserve like that.

>>49463338
>Chandra and the other walkers can weave spells on Kaladesh,.even though the flow of magic is different and measurable magic energies are regulated.

Planeswalkers, even the weakened post Mending walkers, are exceptions to the rules, because they have the power to form mana bonds with lands on multiple planes and then draw on those bonds from anywhere in the Multiverse at will, so they don't have to do shit with the flow of magic on the world they're currently on. Yes, it's probably expedient, and in most cases easier (exceptions of course exist, e.g. Nissa trying on Innistrad and lolfailing) to pull from wherever you are because it's right there, but they are not limited to the plane they're standing on at the time.

Obby showed this when he reignited his Spark:

>The Multiverse stretched out before me once more! I could feel the worlds, countless worlds, familiar and new, splayed out on an infinite canvas of realities. I felt them as pinpricks of light, beacons of power in the distance.
>One by one, I felt my connections to my old conquered worlds reappear. Not all of them, but enough.

His mana bonds came back, and he could start drawing on them again with a reignited Spark.

>>49463202
You do know that the only account we have of anything being wrong with the other praetors is from a first person in-character source that has proven unreliable already?
The ONLY thing place it's been said is in an UR that was written as a letter by Elspeth that claimed Norn now controls the Furnace Layer and the Dross (not even wiped out anything or put down anything, control)...but also claimed Koth was dead, which he isn't, and in general was Elspeth being depressed and pessimistic in the extreme. Not the most reliable of narrators, that.

>>49463537
They could also mention the possibility of one WITHOUT having one exist, like with flamekin.

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>>49463537
I was hoping for speculation. Wizards could just make a vehicle walker if they wanted, but I was wondering on opinions given current knowledge.
>>49463598
Soul of the Harvest, the Maze cycle, embodiment of spring.

Also, the land argument is my point. Despite Norn being in control, she can not stop Koth from drawing on white mana. That being said, him being BR makes more sense thematically, but the argument that he can't be white is asinine.

Speaking of asinine, nice ad hominim. I'm the interest of actually debating, any rebellion that is put down is necessarily absolute death. Aside from my previous example, there are a plethora of rebellions and inner faction power grabs which were put down, without genocide or obliteration.

If we're going to use other applications of the phrase put down to prove a point, I put down my phone and it's still functioning. I put down an infant and it's enjoying it's play area.

Also, did WoTC even say "put down". As fun as semantic arguments are, is there proof that the red and black phyrexians have stopped existing all together? That new leaders haven't risen in stead of the old, ones more compliant with Norn?

>>49463638
Agree black fits more with Koth at this point. As for being too stubborn, this is the man who carved the phyrexian symbol into his skin special he could use it as a reference. The guy who has refused to leave the plane and is still fighting the faction which has fumctionally become his entire plane of existence. If anything, he's too stubborn to *not* use any means to continue fighting. Plus, the mountains were already corrupt and he still used them.

>>49463818
>>49463723
Why destroy what can be repurposed?
>>49463721
Wasn't the implied reason for the trying to kill her Em? Wasn't it that shade of purple and she later thanked Jace for saving her mind?
>>49463742
Fair point, I concede walkers can draw upon resources outside the plane they are in. Therefore, walkers cannot be excluded from any colors simply because of the plane they are on. Which would mean Koth, if he wanted to for some reason, decided he wanted to use white mana, he could.

>>49463795
Note the timing: She knew Norn controlled the Furnace Layer and Dross, likely because she was there when Norn took control.
Also, these are factions where murdering the other ones is the best solution. Norn could have Sheoldred's dross only over her dead body. Implying the praetors would peacefully trade land with each other is practically an unphyrexian thought.


She didn't know on Koth's account because she last saw him sticking her in the ground and fighting obliterator's while a nuke was counting down, so that was guess work.

>>49463832
Destroy and repurpose are synonyms to phyrexia. 'Repurposing' a red phyrexian would involve flaying the flesh from the metal and using the ensuing resources to make a white phyrexian

>>49463818
Soul of the Harvest is definitely an Elemental. It's a fucking living mass of tree and briar
Emobdiment of spring is a living mass of ice and dirt that's beginning to flower. That's an elemental
The Maze cycle is a bit iffy, but even then, they're clearly manifestations of the elemental mana that makes up the Implicit maze. They're not 'element' elementals, but they fit the same way Omnath does.
You're confusing flowery names for what they actually are.

The argument was never that Koth couldn't, just that it would be a pain in the ass to do so, and completely counterproductive to his goals. He doesn't have an army anymore, fighting white mana to white mana would just get him killed.

Plus Koth doesn't seem to have bonded with many sources of mana off of Mirrodin, if at all.

Finally:
>I put down my phone and it's still functioning. I put down an infant and it's enjoying it's play area.
Your confusing a literally physical action with a euphemism.
Putting down your phone is literally "putting it down"
'Putting down' your dog typically means you mercy killed it. That was a stupid argument. Really stupid.

>>49463966
>Although the resistance had limited access to information, we believed Elesh Norn had dominated Urabrask's and Sheoldreds' domains.
That is the entirety of what is said.
They aren't even sure IN CHARACTER if that's the case.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/uncharted-realms/lost-confession-2013-09-11

>>49463966
You have a source for repurpousing? Because an example that comes to mind is lost leonin, which is a white card repurposed as a white card.

Fir Koth, bitter enemies need not be polar color oppaites. On Khan Takir, the Mardu and Abzhan are considered rivals, as are the Temur and Sultai, so while he is opposing a white force, that doesn't exclude him from being white. I agree that the majority of applications of white magic are better for a group than an imdividual, and in this way white would be a poor choice. Then again, damage prevention, industructability, protection from colors, and life gain are all white as well, and would suit a sole survivor.
Though as I said the first time, him being BR would still make the most sense.

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/british/put-down_1
Also, I am aware put down has several unrelated meanings, which is my point. You aren't euthanising a rebellion out of mercey, often due to injury or illness, in the same way your aren't physically placing the rebellion down on a table.
Still yet to see your sources that Norn has been killing other phyrexians rather than just using politics and influence.
How is pure mana an elemental force again? Since when are we using appearances as the sole criteria for creature typing? By your own definition, elementals are supposed to be typed due to association with elements, not concepts. If mana, smog, and seasons changing are elements, why not darkness? Why not blood?

If we're discarding names as well, why is avatar of discord an avatar? Why is Sylvan Primordial? The soul cycle?
Your rigid definitions , and by extension the superiority you seem to draw from them, are unstable at best.

I haven't read this story, but if it is as good as you guys are hyping it up to be, it is a bit sad Aetherborn are so plane specific.

Being black because life is short may the primary motivation of a lot of black characters, but having a race epitomize that would be cool. And it is more natural than Vedalken (oh they are blue because they are smart and tricky and blue and Merfolk don't work on all planes).

>>49452144
I didn't know ATMs were posting on 4chan.

>>49454783
>We need to put the nonbinary meme in its place.
To be fair, I think that place is mostly "Annoying people who call it a meme". It's not important to my life but goddamn I love seeing folks get frustrated because their opinions aren't accepted as objective fact.

>>49464356
You don't get phyrexians. You're talking about the mardu or abzan, who are people, feuding clans and countries, that are willing to work together. That's not phyrexia. Phyrexia is a singular thing. All shall be one, the flesh is to be flayed, then united. If you're not phyrexian, they'll flay you alive and use your flesh to make you phyrexian. It's literally what their purpose is. Nicely talking things out is the opposite of what phyrexians do.
Additionally, Norn is explicitly dogmatic and most focused on "pure" phyrexia. She sees the other factions as not phyrexian enough. There's no negotiation or politics coming from her. Only damnation and destruction. Politics and influence aren't games that Norn plays. She demands dogmatic loyalty.

>Appearance
You can look at a being of fire and know it's an elemental. Same with every single one of them you posted. An air elemental is made of air, Earth elemental is made of earth. It goes on.

>Discarding names
We're discarding flowery names. "Emodiment of Spring" is a fancy name given to an elemental. It's not an incarnation or a spirit or whatever you think it is, it is literally an elemental that has all the aspects you'd expect of spring. The ice of winter melting, hydrating the earth for plants to grow. It's nothing but an elemental, despite it's flowery name.
Now, if it was "Avatar of Spring" much bigger than it was, and probably a few rarities up, then we'd have a problem, but as it is: It's a fancy elemental. It's not the season of spring given shape, it 'embodies' everything that spring is about. That's what an embodiment is, a representation of something in a visible form.

The Avatar of Discord is an avatar. It's name is a description of what it is.

Smog is definitely a thing, Smog elementals can definitely be things, since it's just a mass of smog and mana collected and acting like it's alive by moving and purposefully choking people.

>>49464356
Shut up Vronak.

>>49464356
Sylvan Primordial is an avatar because it embodies the entirety of whatever the fuck 'Sylva' is. Looking at a card search, I'm assuming it's nature. So a primordial being that represent the concept of nature and trees punching your face in is an avatar. On the other hand, if it was the soil of a forest, complete with plants sticking out coming to punch you, it'd be an elemental. There probably are darkness elementals, but blood is a biological animal substance, and thus isn't a thing that typically becomes an elemental.

Same with the Soul cycle. Those are the avatars and wills of the plane itself made manifest. They're avatars because for all intents and purposes, they are their plane's will.

So, let me explain in more words for you: Elementals are made of elements, matter, and mana, given shape and solidified like mana, granting motion to the metaphorically motionless

Avatars are beings made of the living will of a thing that otherwise could not act. The soul cycles are avatars of a plane, and are the closest the planes can get to getting up to deal with shit. Avatars aren't necessarily made of anything though, which is why they aren't elementals. As Avatar of the Resolute explains: They "exemplify the ideals" because they're made of those ideals.

This really isn't that complicated.

>>49464934
Silvan means foresty.

>>49464977
Thank you. I couldn't find anything except for business advertisements.

So yeah, "the concept of Forestry that has existed since the beginning of time"
Sounds like an avatar to me.

>>49464934
What about stuff like Desecration Elemental, Humbler of Mortals or similar? Discounting older cards seems a bit silly since that comic was printed during Lorwyn.

What the hell kind of material is Humbler made of?

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>>49465030
Anyway, I posted a counterpoint to you, but I'll admit, looking through all elementals, the vast majority of them that aren't Lorwyn are just the traditional elementals like in DnD.

But we still have shit like Void Stalker who is clearly not a water or air or... Anything.

And shit like Lord of Extinction is clearly designed to be "death elemental", not "gratuitous name for an earth elemental".

>>49465033
Most of magic creative started getting codified post mending. For us, that's time spiral. So most stuff pre time spiral is nuts and no one had any idea what they were doing, hence why pre-mending needed the grand creature type update, and why Maro says to only pay attention to more recent stuff when trying to figure out what a color can and can't do.

So we focus on Post-Mending aka Post Time Spiral, which would start us on Lorwyn. But Lorwyn also had no idea what it was doing and there's a reason WotC hates the plane, so we cut that too. So we start with Alara onwards.

So Desecration Elemental falls into the same "What the fuck were we thinking back then" as black artifact destruction. Humbler of Mortals and friends are Nyx elementals unique to Theros because they're made out of very tangible "dreammatter."

Additionally, the artwork clearly shows it's made out of stone, quite possibly marble or sandstone.
Just like Thassa's Devourer is an elemental made of water and nyx

>>49465117
Lord of Extinction I'll give you as the exception. At the same time, it's part of the wonky mess caused by the maelstrom, so even that exception has a pretty big reason for being an exception. Things that shouldn't blend were blending at the time.

Fuck if I know what Void Stalker is. Honestly should be thrown in with other "spirits" but I guess it's made of something. Aether maybe? Something transient. I don't know.

>>49465119
I actually looked at all the nyxborn and they are pretty consistently a normal creature type that just happens to be Nyx-y, with the elementals being as you said, water or earth or fire, etc.

Anyway, you are correct for the most part. They've moved away from having elementals of stuff like smashitude. But I wouldn't be surprised if they brought it back for a set.

>>49456060
I actually pictured Yahenni much more feminine in nature due to their actions, but I suppose that's the beauty of Aetherborn, their actions often align themselves closer a gender but they are not restrict them to either.

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>>49465119
a tangible or visible form of an idea, quality, or feeling

a concrete or actual form of a quality or concept

an embodiment or personification, as of a principle, attitude, or view of life.

A creature (usually a spirit) that is attuned with, or composed of, one of the classical elements: air, earth, fire and water

A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon

Which is magmaw, malignus, lord of extinction, scion of ugin, scion of the ur-dragon, scion of the wilds, spirit of the hunt, essence of the wild, living lore, soul of the harvest, soul of elements and soul of winter?

>>49465527
What are you trying to argue here? Everything you listed makes perfect sense for it's typing, save Lord of Extinction, which was already covered.
See >>49464934
>So, let me explain in more words for you: Elementals are made of elements, matter, and mana, given shape and solidified like mana, granting motion to the metaphorically motionless

>Avatars are beings made of the living will of a thing that otherwise could not act. The soul cycles are avatars of a plane, and are the closest the planes can get to getting up to deal with shit. Avatars aren't necessarily made of anything though, which is why they aren't elementals. As Avatar of the Resolute explains: They "exemplify the ideals" because they're made of those ideals.

Gut if you really want me to go through them:
Magmaw is a magma elemental warped by the eldrazi.

Malignus is a big ass fire and electricity storm, that's definitely an elemental.

Scion of the Ur-Dragon is an embodiment of all things dragon in time spiral. Literally "The blood of the dragon coursing through all dragon kind"

Same with Scion of the Wild being basically an avatar of all things "wild"

Spirit of the hunt is a literal spirit

Essence of the wild is self explanatory.

As is Living Lore, which is literally Living Lore

Soul of the Harvest is a big briar, wood, and possibly berries elemental.

Animar is basically the biggest and best example of an elemental, so it gets the title.

Ojutai is a dragon with a title because he and his brood spread cold and frost in their wake, not because they're elementals or avatars.

Honestly, you keep thinking the word "Soul" means anything for types. It doesn't. Especially when it's part of a title like in Animar and Ojutai's cases

>>49465693
If the name is irrelevant, then why is Avatar of Discord an Avatar and not a nightmare or demon?

>>49465753
Because the name works with what a thing is. Because there's a creature type for Avatar, and not a creature type for "Soul." Because Ojutai is confirmed to be just a dragon with impressive ice powers that makes it feel more like fighting winter than fighting anything you can win.

"Soul of Elements" and "Soul of Winter" are flowery titles given to actual beings. In the end, Animar is just an elemental, Ojutai is just a dragon.

Your argument is nonsensical.

>>49465119
The real answer is that the dreative team want to be able to define these creature types differently depending on the world. A spirit on Ravnica is not the same thing as a spirit on Lorwyn is not the same thing as a spirit on Kamigawa is not the same thing as a spirit on Theros, etc.

>there's a reason WotC hates the plane
Either you're trolling now or you actually don't know what you're talking about. Either way WotC doesn't hate Lorwyn. The players disliked the block for not being cool enough.

>>49465901
Most mechanics were listed as design failures, it's pretty much near the bottom of worlds they're willing to give their own block to revisit, they retconned Nissa's origin so that they didn't have to spend more than two minutes on it. etc.etc.
They don't treat it like they actually like the plane, that's for sure.

>>49465867
a tangible or visible form of an idea, quality, or feeling

a concrete or actual form of a quality or concept

an embodiment or personification, as of a principle, attitude, or view of life.

A creature (usually a spirit) that is attuned with, or composed of, one of the classical elements: air, earth, fire and water

A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon

Which is it?

>>49466000
Are you trying to throw the definition of soul at me like that changes anything in a title? Titles mean nothing, they're like nicknames. We can find a picture of you and call you the "Soul of neckbeards" but that doesn't suddenly mean you embody all neckbeards.
"Soul of Winter" and "Soul of Elements" are basically nicknames. You can't be this autistic to think nicknames are literal.

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>>49455043
I liked it.

>>49466031
Which is it
Apparently you could call me the Avatar of Neckbeards and I'd be an avatar.

>>49465957
>Most mechanics were listed as design failure
My god, how do you think they determine wether something is a success or not? By how players respond to it. Lorwyn was mechanically complex with many unexiting keywords, which were disliked by players. What was also disliked by players was how the plane was about stealing goats and pies instead of sweaty muscle men ripping each other apart.

>it's pretty much near the bottom of worlds they're willing to give their own block to revisit
Yes, because it's disliked by the players.

>they retconned Nissa's origin so that they didn't have to spend more than two minutes on it
The creative team has never been able to their stories straight.

>>49457265
This guy called Buttfish did some decent stuff on /aco/ a while back, IIRC

>>49466086
I love pie stealing. Also, I was under the impression that they retconned Nissa because genocide is a no-no
>>49466054
As did I, and I like the flavor of that card.
>>49466031
No u :^)
>>49465527
Pretty sure the image shows the implication
>>49464590
Hey, maybe we'll see them in the future anon.

>>49463547
Theres an old lore story where two walkers were dueling across planes and the green walker tricked the blue walker onto a plane that was an ocean with only one island. She blew up the island and planeswalked away stranding the blue walker there forever.

>>49466082
Because that's a solid name. It's what you are. 'Avatar of neckbeards' is the same as calling something a car. "Faggot, lord of neckbeards" is a name, then a title.

>>49466659
Still haven't answered. Which of those definitions fit best? If you're going to be a pedant, you could work on your syntax friendo

>>49466776
Literally none of Souls definition matter at all, because it's a poetic title, not a name. "Avatar of Discord" is a name. "Ojutai" is a name "Soul of Winter" is not a name, but a metaphor and adjective, describing Ojutai.

And I'm done here, you're an idiot.

>>49467006
None of them are definitions of "soul"
But sure, take your ball and go home.

>>49449784
>We're good at investing because we don't live very long!
Fuck off. This is so absolutely retarded, unbelievable.

>>49467314
I think he was saying "I have officially stopped giving a shit" in flowery, semi-business sounding wording. Alternatively "Sure, I'll invest in your nuclear powered jetpack. I don't give a shit."

>>49467314
What are you referencing? The story I read had the aetherborn retire because they wouldn't be accountable for the results, as that was after their expiration date.

It also said that the aetherborn are gifted with the ability to sense emotions of those around them to useful degrees.