Longswords and Backscabbards

>>49348107
Looks cool. According to some sources, large swords were sometimes worn on the back because it's the easiest place to carry it on for a long period, even though it's inconvenient to draw from in a hurry(a sword that size would drag on the ground if hung from your hips)

Historical sources indicate that Arab warriors carried swords on their backs until at latest the 15th century, and some period art shows Japanese swordsmen with no-dachis on their backs, but little historical precedent exists for Europe.

Most swords long enough that they had to be worn that way required assistance to draw, because the wearer couldn't extend their arms long enough to clear the scabbard.

>>49348107
If you need to travel with it, sure. But if you're actively going into combat with it you'd be better off slinging it over shoulder or holding it near your hips until you get where you're going.

>>49348107
a scabbard prevents a sword from rusting

>>49348107
Great for travelling. You'd take it off before you get in combat, though. It's a slow draw.

>>49348242
>>the wearer couldn't extend their arms long enough to clear the scabbard.
Look at the OP Pic. Scabbard addresses that problem.

>>49348254
SOME scabbards prevent swords from rusting. Does it look like OP's one does?

>>49348107

You literally cannot draw your weapon. Carry it across your shoulders, or have someone to hold it for you. This shit don't work.

>>49348254
>>This scabbard doesn't prevent rusting
I've seen how rusted swords can get in the scabbard, so they're not great at preventing it to begin with.

Additionally, scabbards give you a convenient way to carry a sword.

Finally, when the commonly proposed alternative is "carry it in your hands all the time", that's not going to prevent rusting either.

>>49348197
Update, found a European depiction. English depiction of Irishmen; the middle guy seems to be wearing his sword point up, which would place the hilt near his hip. Since we can't see how it's held on, it's kind of hard to tell how it's attached.

And now that I look at it again, it might just be the guy next to him is holding it one handed.

>>49348289
OP's scabbard doesn't seem to have any historical origin and is apparently purely modern

File: what the heck.jpg (1MB, 1136x848px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1136x848px

>>49348324
Forgot to add picture...

>>49348283
That scabbard negates the only benefit of back storage. It won't protect the blade from the elements over long periods of travel. It looks neat, but is really not a good design.

>>49348319
Why? It seems quite easy to draw, to me.

>>49348324
>>Historical Origin
No idea if it has a historical origin.

People innovated all kinds of shit.

Point is, the commonly touted reason for not doing backscabbards is that you can't draw it from the scabbard yourself if it's a full-sized scabbard.

This to me seems like a simple problem of engineering a suitable scabbard to carry the thing on your back, as in the OP. Holds the bottom, and has hooks for the top.

>>49348388
Most of them aren't open like that. Having it open like that is about as bad as just hefting the naked blade over your shoulder with a sling. It defeats the entire purpose of having a scabbard in the first place.

>>49348348
>It won't protect the blade from the elements over long periods of travel.
No, you'd still have to oil it regularly. True.

But that's not the only benefit of a scabbard. They're also a convenient place to store/carry a weapon while leaving your hands free for some other task.

This, to me, seems like the scabbard you might want if you're expecting to have to use the sword later today, but want your hands free in the meantime for eating/drinking/etc/whatever.

>>49348410
It wouldn't flop around and get in your way as much as just a sling.

I don't think "the entire purpose of having a scabbard" is protection from the elements. It's clearly useful for other things too (depending on the scabbard in question).

>>49348416
The thing is that anyone carrying a sword that big is part of a military unit.
And if you're in a military unit, you've got time to have your buddy help you draw it before heading into battle.
It's only useful if you plan on being ambushed and don't plan on going very far.

You guys are missing it entirely, OP's man is a travelling sword swallower. It's just easier to carry the main act on his back.

>>49348107
a scabbard prevents a sword from rusting

>>49348450
The one in OPs pic is obviously not useful for protection from the elements.

But as a means of carrying to reduce hindrance and minimizing the draw time, it looks like it would do the job.

>>49348321
You saw shitty scabbards, perhaps? Did you watch schoolagladiatoria video on century old sword that's still shiny as fuck?

>>49348466
Clearly this one is not designed for that purpose, and instead designed to meet the *other* things a scabbard is good for, which have been mentioned several times upthread already.

>>49348504
I watched a scholagladiatoria video where he described a sword he bought that was rusted into the scabbard and was a pain in the ass to get out, is that the one you mean?

>>49348524
Those other things could be met better by a hip scabbard, with a far less awkward draw.
Because even with the open design, you'll still have to lean over and pull it out from your shoulderblade, when you could just be whipping it out from your hip.

>>49348460
And in fictional settings without stringent regulation on the weapons that can be carried by non-military personnel?

Or say, if someone is part of a small mercenary company? Sure you might have help drawing it, but maybe not.

>>49348561
It's a longsword. If you put it on your hip it'll be dragging on the ground or jutting out awkwardly hitting all kinds of shit.

>>49348569
Then maybe you should carry it on your hip, or on your saddle, or in a number of other locations.
The back scabbard is best for long distance travel on foot. There are better solutions to other situations.

>>49348590
Then maybe you should draw it before going into battle, like people with back scabbards actually did.

>>49348540
No, the one with leather thingy that prevents shit from getting inside. I agree that not every scabbard and sword were designed to seal so tightly.

Btw swords were useless shit and glorifying them is like glorifying handguns despite the fact that rifles do all the work. Muh side arm lmao and how often do people use fucking side arms? What went so horribly wrong with your polearm that you have to draw a fucking oversized knife that is only good at killing unarmed and unarmored faggots?

>still have to undo two straps and lean forward to draw
>no protection from the elements
>easier to carry over long distances I guess
Whoever made that was given three choices and told to pick two, but picked one instead.

>>49348590
Longswords were carried just fine on the hip even in civil context. They are barely longer than rapier.

>>49348342
You see middle guy's sword hilt at his belt. The sword "on his back" is clearly held by the guy in the black hat.

>>49348751
I don't see any straps you have to undo in OP's pic. You just lift it off its hinges as you draw it from the covered part of the scabbard.
Will probably still be a pretty awkward draw, but it seems like something that could be done relatively fast.

>>49348107
Viable in the same way an icepick grip for a one handed sword (arming sword length) is viable. Its clumsy, there are no benefits to it, and everything it can do the regular version can do better. But yes, if you insist, you can do it if you're willing to be a worse fighter for it.

>>49348741
Longswords served the same role as a polearm. They're not a sidearm. Nothing in this thread has been about broadswords or smallswords or arming swords or rapiers.

File: 1418179019040.png (21KB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 500x500px

Incredibly possible

File: 1470780444071.jpg (100KB, 854x640px) Image search: [Google]

100KB, 854x640px

>>49348741
>spearfag enters the thread to shill his meme weapon

>>49348954
>meme weapon used by every single pre gunpowder era military unit all around the world

>>49348932
Name some battles dedicated longswordsmen participated in.

File: DFFarrington_Face.png (3KB, 192x192px) Image search: [Google]

3KB, 192x192px

>>49349111
>is surprised that peasants were given a weapon that is literally a sharp stick to cut costs.

>>49348107
Great for travel.
Drawing off the back is absurdly awkward.
As an adventurer, or warrior travelling distance and not expecting to pull out the large blade at a moment's notice, good times.

>>49349152
Hoplites, samurai and Immortals were such peasants right? Kill yourself.

File: FaceDownAssUp.jpg (33KB, 224x198px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 224x198px

>>49349216
you first snowflake

>>49349216
Well most samurai were poor as fuck, sustained through banditry in neighboring provinces.

>>49349318
That's how it's like in Naruto?

>>49349318
At what point in time? Cause Samurai had a pretty decent run as an aristocratic military class.

>>49349348
?

>>49349127
>What are Landschneckts?

I mean, you can find information on their common equipment loadouts quite easily, and battles they were pivotal in.

Hell, wikipedia even gives a bunch of examples.

>>49349348
But Samurai in Naruto were the elite warriors of a special country?

>>49349366
Warring states. Decent run is a bit of an exaggeration imho.

>>49349376
>zweihander
>longsword
lmao

also whole one fucking example of some meme soldiers no one gave a fuck about before Dank Souls came out and made zweihanders famous among uneducated swine

>>49349376
And their most common loadout was...a pike and an arming sword.

>>49349430
Never played darksouls actually.

Also:
>>49349430
Huh. I thought the two were synonymous, but apparently there's just a range of overlap where you could call a sword either one; but a smaller longsword would be too small to be a zweihander and a larger zweihander would be too big to be a longsword.

But that range of overlap certainly seems enough to say longswords saw historical military use.

>>49349591
Arming swords were not longswords retard.

>>49349430
>dark souls made zweihanders famous
Opinion discarsed

>>49349587
Never said a Pike was a bad weapon, simply that a zweihander/longsword is a viable alternative.

>>49349613
Why are you reiterating a point I made like 5 posts ago, agreeing with me, and calling me a retard.

Theres a range of sword dimensions you could classify as either a longsword or as a zweihander.

What does any of that have to do with arming swords? Are you illiterate?

>>49349669
If Landsknecht used arming swords and pikes more often than zweihanders then they are not a good fucking poster boys for longswords aren't they?

>>49349703
>>This piece of equipment was used commonly, but not by an overwhelming margin.
>>They're still known for using it regularly and effectively, but often used pikes because Pikes are quite good.
>>Clearly we should disregard any evidence that the Pike-Alternative is ever a reasonable alternative.
Go home anon, you're drunk.

>>49349783
meme warriors I bet you still think Spartans were ultimate fighters because ebin 300. Protip: they got decked by a LITERAL army of faggots.

>>49348342
If you look closely, the guy on the middle has his sword in his belt. The sword on his back is of the other guy wrestling with the guy.

>>49349617
Not as an alternative, as a supplement. Doppelsöldner sometimes would arm themselves with non-pike weapons such as Halberds, Partisians and Zweihanders but these were meant to help disrupt the swiss pike formations. Zweihanders themselves were more to guard standard bearers and were phased out for longswords.

The actual weapon of choice for a Doppelsöldner, especially later on was the arquebus and crossbow. Arquebusiers and Crossbowmen were used to break up Pike blocks so that Landsknecht pike blocks would be able to advance.

>>49349813
>>Unrelated Strawman about Greeks and their half-naked combat.
>>Comment about a bunch of literal faggots getting decked by a bunch of other literal faggots.
Good job drunk anon, you sure showed me.

>>49349920
I didn't say as an alternative for the whole army. I've been talking about their use by people IN war, not about the exclusion of polearms. Using only a single tool in your army when you can be more effective by having a variety of tools wielded by different men would be stupid.

>>49349216
Actually, original hoplites were citizen-militia of the greek city-states, so yes, they were peasants with spears, not professional soldiers.

>>49351977
You ever heard of that group of untrained peasants called the Spartans? Yeah, me either.

>>49352166
Hoplites were literally farmers and shit who bought their own armor and served as the fighting force of the region. Hoplites=/=phalanxmen.

>>49348107
Horse-side saddle.

File: 1394250702124.png (51KB, 634x284px) Image search: [Google]

51KB, 634x284px

>>49349111
You had to know this was coming.

Just draw it out a little, then quickly move your hand and draw the rest by the blade.

>>49352631

Land-owners and men who can buy armor and weapons =/= peasants

>>49348107
in an eastern campaign , i handwaved a kind of scabbard that can be "opened" mechanically in a way that it allows to take the weapon out as easily as picking it up from somewhere, and kept it save from the element while sheathed.

it was composed of two halfs that are conected with a hinge and a spring at the end, so when the safety cord was released, you could open the sheath by moving the blade normaly in a drawing-motion

>>49348741
It's super hard to do any good with a polearm against somebody with a sword. You have to be pretty good at running backwards, but even then you usually have one chance of getting a good stab in.

This has just been my experience with the SCA. You pretty much need a shield guy to hide behind if you're using a polearm.

File: 1471033202323.jpg (83KB, 446x1000px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 446x1000px

>>49349430

File: smug twi'lek girl.jpg (37KB, 800x450px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 800x450px

>>49354448
>SCA
Do you seriously think your random bashing has anything to do with simulating real fight?

>>49354818
desu I value his anecdotes more than your greentext + reaction image

>>49349591
>Huh. I thought the two were synonymous

terminology is fucked.
For example; take a arming sword or viking sword (which have grip just the size to fit your grip on it) as a standard SWORD.

Longsword would always have long grip. Enough to fit two, 2-1/2 hands on it. Blade length could be longer or similar to arming sword.

Zwei-hander is generally considered a polearm because it was used in pike formations to break polearm shafts.

Depending on who is talking BASTARD sword could be a sword between Arming sword and Longsword. Or it would be a sword that is longer than Longsword but shorter than Zwei-Hander.

so you being confused is only natural.

>>49348107
Longswords are great.

Scabbards are nice.

Hanging a longsword in a scabbard off your back is pants-on-head retarded.

Wear it on your hip; your hands are free, your sword is safe, you can sit down, you can draw your sword at a moment's notice to smite thine enemies. Everybody wins.

If you're doing business that makes wearing it on your hip inconvenient, you may want to temporarily carry it in some exotic manner, but you'd be well-advised to put your scabbard back where it belongs when you're done dealing with that edge case.

File: FB_IMG_1467151592718.jpg (8KB, 280x280px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 280x280px

Jesus Christ you dumb fuckers fell hard for that bait.

>>49348107

Backscabbards are only suitable for orangutans.

File: imga_swordsman.jpg (55KB, 367x771px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 367x771px

>>49355691

>>49352166
>muh Sparta meme

rekt by Athenians and rekt by literal bunch of faggots from Thebes

>>49354131
>le Rome didn't use spears xD

confirmed for a retard who takes his history knowledge from HBO shows

>>49348107
Useful for carrying a weapon long term.

Because along march with that at your side is just a fucking pain.

>>49354818
There isn't much random bashing involved, anon. That's how people get maimed.

>>49348781
But rapiers needed special baldric to be worn. They are a problem to carry on the hip. Rapier weren't worn on the hip.
If you look at some techniques to draw the longsword in a hurry, the person has his longsword's scabbard already in his hands, not on his hip.

>>49348388
>This to me seems like a simple problem of engineering a suitable scabbard to carry the thing on your back, as in the OP. Holds the bottom, and has hooks for the top
It kinda defeats the point of a scabbard though, protecting the sword from rusting.
For just holding a sword they had things like metal rings or loops of leather attached too a belt or strap.

File: Pisani-Dossi_MS_35b-d.png (2MB, 1065x897px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1065x897px

>>49357687
Here's a defense against a dagger attack, while the longsword is still in the scabbard.
The scabbard is clearly held with the left hand and the self-defense context suggest that it was a common/regular way to walk with a longsword, which wouldn't exactly be a typical civilian weapon for starters.

>>49357007
The hasta, the roman melee spear, fell out of favor when rome approached imperial era: it was carried over from hoplite tactics, which rome discarded with times. As such, those who served with the name of hastati in late republican era were already not armed with the hasta, which was reserved for the veterans of the triarii divisions, deployed in the back of the ranks of the legion. As for the pilum, it was a thrown weapon and unsuited for close quarters because of its heavy point which was easily removed from the pole, making it good at disabling shields. Romans didn’t want those who charged them to stay at pike range like hoplites did, they actually wanted the barbarians to bash against their shields so they could stab the more easily with quick strikes of their shortswords, often aimed at the back of the legs.

File: 525fa9a4a3ea41d0dfc0163165d71e9a.jpg (135KB, 736x1252px) Image search: [Google]

135KB, 736x1252px

>>49358311
And later on they came back to using spears and more flexible formations.

>>49348107
Travel scabbards are nice. Take it out and keep it out if you plan on using it in a hurry though.

Also carry a fucking sidearm or two because someone will ambush you thinking "hey this chucklefuck's big sword is tucked away, this is my chance".

>>49358341
You mean about that time that Rome got fucked by the Goths?

File: 1423143911162.jpg (57KB, 811x608px) Image search: [Google]

57KB, 811x608px

>>49348348
What if you were to cover the back side with a thin sheet of leather held on by eyelets? It would keep the weapon covered, but if you needed to draw in a hurry you could pop off the top eyelets with your thumb (or just the force of drawing the sword) and have it out in a jiffy.

Would that work?

>>49358341
By the time however, the legion had changed to include more foreign tactics and it had little in common with the actual roman military tradition. The scutum was gone, the gladius replaced with longer swords, and a more extensive use of cavalry became prominent.
What stands is that the "classic" roman legion, the one of late republican-early imperial ages, didn’t favor the spear for close quarters.

>>49358421
>party leader with second highest charisma

>polearms are meme weapons

/tg/ being bad at history again

I bet you people think that crossbows could easily penetrate plate, too

>>49358503
Polearms are not meme because they are bad. They are in fact, quite good. They are meme because every time you try to talk about any other weapon you will have to endure the constant barrage of, indeed, memes about how all weapons are shit and shouldn't be used because the polearms are just better in any way. An opinion that fails to account for so many factors, it rightly deserves the name of meme.

>>49358503
At close range they could.

>>49348242
They'd normally just take the scabbard off pull the sword out and put the scabbard back on or chuck it depending on the situation.
You're not going to do any smooth draw motions.
Greatswords were battlefield weapons not day to day carries like long/arming swords so they didn't need to be able to draw them in a rush.

Why not just carry it with something like a rifle sling? Balanced so it hangs horizontal from the shoulder and if you really need it on your back you can sling it there like people do with rifles.

>>49348741
>glorifying handguns
We do that too tho
Gunslingers are a classic archetype

File: 1453227860330.gif (2MB, 420x300px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 420x300px

>meme weapon
>meme soldiers
>meme warriors
Never change, /tg/.

>>49348741
You should seek counceling regarding those insecure feelings you have.

>>49358503
You people are the new "grorious nippon katana folded 10000 times can cut through solid steel" weaboos

Can't we all just agree that axes are the tightest shit

>>49360721
Nobody can agree on anything on /tg/

>>49348250
Why the fuck would you go into battle with your weapon sheathed?