/gbg/ - Godbound General

>>49325021
I'm currently running a Might/Artifice/Endurance godbound through the old Return to the Tomb of Horrors module in 1998, solo, as a 1st-level adventure. There have been some scares, and we haven't quite made it to the Tomb, but we've seen a fuckton of wights, and even more giants.

Anyone got a PDF of the original Tomb? I'll be needing it for my prolonged plans.

>>49325037
>solo

Consider importing the defy death rules and free 2 HP healing if you rest 10 minutes after every fight rules from Scarlet Heroes.

Well that's what I plan to do once I run this for my one player. How's the experience of running a classic module for a Godbound? Did you need to do any conversions or sudden improvisation?

>>49325021
Bolt blade voice of winds mandatory components of all builds use them or you're cancer active killing the hobby

>>49325192
Only the smallest amount of improvisation is required, just as much as I'd normally use for any other game, as a matter of fact. THAC0 correlates to flat ascending bonuses instead of using THAC0 of course, so someone with THAC0 8 would have a To-Hit of +12 for example.

I also find that mortals are really really powerful, in their ability to deal damage.

Contempt of Distance not allowing Sword only Godbound to deal with threats that like to hit and run is bothering the fuck out of me.

Any ideas on how to fix it? I know Sword was designed to be the jack of all trades combat Word, so maybe make it something that's weaker than an Alacrity gift but still useful.

I mean seriously. When a foe gets two actions per round they get a move action too. Kiting a melee opponent is very possible.

Maybe a lesser gift that forces enemies to target the Godbound would be a good idea as well.

>>49325343
>Maybe a lesser gift that forces enemies to target the Godbound would be a good idea as well.

It's more crosswording but Banner of Passion can pretty cleanly be justified in focusing the aggression of an already aggressive target or group of targets. Its situational and easily shut down by the type of PC v GM GM's that these kind of d20 games cater to though.

>>49325343
Perhaps the Sword Godbound could reserve an action to take place when their foe is in range, rather than not?

>>49325343
Please note the following form page 20: "A combatant in melee who moves away from a foe without spending their action disengaging draws an instant free melee attack from all nearby foes. Some gifts allow a hero to avoid these passing blows."

Is Falling Meteor Strike read straight?

That mixed with "Stronger Than You" is a guaranteed 4 damage after level 3, grappling then striking an opponent, worthwhile even if it's not read straight. If it is, then that's truly horrifying.)

>>49325910
Falling Meteor Strike is 4 points of damage per level. So it's stupid strong.

If I was your GM I won't allow grapples to combo with that though. The way I interpret the gift is that the PC has to wind his hit up like goddamn Popeye or some shit.

I would allow it to combo with Fertility's Touch of Green Restraint or other free form miracles that restrict movement and allows saving throws.

>>49326385
Oh yeah, speaking of area of effect miracles. Notice that in the What Can Miracles Do section, attacking several targets is 1d6 per two levels.

This is less efficient than mimicking Corona of Fury. Turns out there's a reason for that according to Kevin Crawford.

"The distinction is this, really:

1) Is my only goal to inflict damage on the targets? Mimic Corona of Fury for 1d8/2 levels.

2) Is my main goal to create a substantial change in the area of effect, but the change would also reasonably bring harm to the occupants? Then my miracle does 1d6/2 levels to targets.

The rule is in there as a catch-all for those situations when the PC wants to make a potentially-damaging area-effect change and the GM needs a number to figure out how much damage targets in the zone should take."

I wish this was spelled out, but oh well. This should allow PCs to get more creative with their AoEs.

>>49326385
I'd have to say that Grapplers certainly should be able to do this myself. The reason being is that a grapple should make an opponent immobile, however powerful creatures could spend effort to evade it. It's otherwise unable to affect other creatures. But I also like the idea of a creature being unaware and getting hit in the back with it.

What's so bad about allowing Godbound to have more than one attack? A mortal Hero could deal 1d10+6 twice per round with a +3 Weapon (assuming that your campaign doesn't just happen to include +5 weapons) compared to a Sword based hero just dealing 1d10+4 with a single action. The Sword Godbound could take the damage better than the Mortal Hero, certainly, but still the discrepancy seems offputting to say the least. Mortal Heroes could be expected to deal twice the amount as Godbounds, barring Smite actions.

Why not have a special attack action that allows a Godbound to make more than one melee/ranged attacks per round, provided they're unaided by non-constant gifts?

>>49327190
Kevin Crawford answered this in the rpg.net thread. I'll get the full answer for you tomorrow. But basically it's for game balance purposes. Mortals get multiple attacks as a bonus because they don't have Dominion and autohit Smite attacks that get real strong the higher level you get.

As with any OSR game though, table rules>book rules. Try it out and tell the thread I'd it breaks anything. I suspect it'll help burn down boss monsters quicker, since high level fights tend to be damage races and dispel fests.

>>49327405
I thought Made Gods were terribly dangerous and nigh unbeatable, until I realized that they still suffered damage against Thaumaturgy/Strifes just fine, even if they can dispel certain Gifts with ease. Still, 50 damage is an asspain to get, even with a fistfull of level 10s. Their smites might only do 15 damage on average a piece, if they're not dispelled.

>>49327471

That's what Artifacts are for I think. PCs shouldn't be able to take down a Made God without heavy preparation. Weapons consecrated to kill specific gods are well within the playstyle the game is trying to emulate. Judging by the Red Sword of the Bleeding Emperor's 1d10 +15 straight damage to mobs, I think players are encouraged to go hog wild on Artifact powers with a very specific and narrow purpose.

>>49327568
I'd love to see some various artifacts that people have made. I imagine that Artificers will have whole panoplies for little constant effects.

>>49325246
Kevin Crawford had to nerf Voice.

>>49325037
>>49325246
Daily reminder that low level Attack Bonuses are dogshit and you WILL take an autohit gift if you want to fight.

How rare do you think minor and major heroes are in a kingdom? They're pretty much the only challenging foes I'd expect parties to meet when interacting with mortals.

Any other kind of foe that can make players sweat will probably fuck a kingdom up just by being there. So they're basically deliberate encounters or foes the party seeks out rather than fixtures in the setting.

>>49327824
>Bandit Chief
>Military Base
>Noble Household
This shit again, minor/major herofag?

>>49327849
Not that guy but please go on and elaborate.

>>49327824
I figure they're rare, but the party might well encounter all of them across the entire setting. Influential people are going to be able to call these people if the party work against them or their goals.

Hype them up a bit, have them get referenced before they ever appear. If a major hero is "the captain of the guard", they're going to feel arbitrary. If they're Jamie Fucking Lannister, who gets dropped into unrelated conversation as a synonym for "skilled swordsman" (or "handsome", for that matter), then they'll feel like they're a part of the setting.

That's the real question, isn't it? How do you use these characters in a way that will feel like it makes sense within the setting? Make them a big deal.

>>49327745
Where could I find errata?
>>49327799
Nnnnnnnope. You're comparing the numbers to your subjective opinion and shelling out your conclusion as objective fact which makes you objectively bad at logic. Subjectively though, you may as well find a tall bridge and jump.

>>49328424
>You're comparing the numbers to your subjective opinion and shelling out your conclusion as objective fact which makes you objectively bad at logic.

How's fighting those AC 3-5 veterans going for you, level 1 dude?

>>49328424
..numbers are objective, dude. Numbers don't lie. You can simply math numbers easy, to get answers.

>>49328446
>2 HD

So basically the party has to survive one session before veterans turn into lesser foes and therefore speed bumps?

Gift points are too precious to waste by worrying about enemies like that.

>>49328446
>>49328504

Level 1 Godbound without a focus on combat:
1+0, vs. AC 3: 20% chance to hit

Level 1 Godbound with a focus on combat vs. same
1+3, vs. AC 3: 35% chance to hit

L 1 Might Godbound vs. same gets a 40% chance to hit.

The subjective part is that you two (and others) assume that a Godbound will always be fighting a well armed enemy as well. Please keep in mind, if the enemy outpaces the Godbound in skill, it could always expend a point of effort to ensure that they either hit regardless of what the roll says, or mimic an unmissable attack. Or spend 1 effort for the day (with Sword or Earth).

In an OSR game, there's also more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. You could spend time/effort removing the enemy's armor, or otherwise destroying it.

>>49328774
herp derp
>Or spend 1 effort for the day (with Sword or Earth) to ignore AC/AC from metal armor for the scene.

>>49328774
>spending effort/day just to hit a 2 HD mook in heavy armor

Yeah, nah. You're dumb.

>>49328876
I don't think any gift does that, so that's a GM fiat miracle.

>>49328913
Strife of Broken Earth.

Optionally the PC can also spend a fact at chargen to master the lesser strife version of that, and they can commit effort for the scene to do that.

>>49328955
If you're buying up to that, you're a hell of a lot better off getting Bolt/Blade. That's an autohit for max damage.

>>49328887
Did you not see >for the scene?
Yeah, nah, You're dumb.

>>49328913
It's actually from No Walls Stand, Bow's got the ability The Seeking Flight which does this for ranged-attacks, though a miracle (or even gift) to do this for Sword Attacks takes very minimal fiat in both instances.

>>49328993
But you only get to use them once per scene, making the Lesser Strife of Broken Earth objectively more effort-effective, because you can do it for the whole scene, at it increases your chance to hit by no less than 60% the whole scene long against such veterans that you're terrified of.

>>49328993
Don't you think the Earth word can miracle up a strife gift? It'd be weird not to.

Anyway, if I was making a hypothetical character who's somehow worried about combat even though I insist on spending my gift points on non combat stuff, spending a Fact will be my go-to choice. Gift points are limited.

>>49329017
>>49329042
No Walls Stand makes you commit Effort for the scene but it's NOT scene long!

It's On Turn.

Same for Seeking Flight.

>>49329210
Gifts are scene long unless stated otherwise anon.

>>49329280
Page 25 very last paragraph.

Here's another way to deal with Veterans at level one without autohit. Spend a Fact to be a Cinnabar Order or Theotechnician Archimage.

You now have a summonable 8 HD bodyguard. Forever.

So, any artifacts out there?

>>49328310
The real killer for a setting full of minor/major heroes is Ancalia. Everyone else there is either hiding in a cave or shambling around demanding brains.

>>49325615
Exactly. The whole "OMFG WHY CAN'T I CHARGE?" thing is complete bullshit.

Movement-wise, let's assume you start 3 moves away from your ranged opponent. You loose your battle-cry and charge 2 moves towards them, leaving you 1 move away.

They can then either move one back and shoot, or move 2 back.

If they move one back and shoot, you take a petty shit blow (assuming it even hits) and move forward 2, engaging them in melee. Now if they retreat they get hit. Good luck against that Sword monster, Brand the Bowman.

If they retreat another 2, then you and the GM look at each other, the GM says "fuck, this is blatantly a chase innit?" and you roll off on your Dex bonuses (or just do a Dex check). If you win, you've run them down and you have them engaged. If you lose, they escape. Either way, the fucker is running, not shooting at you.

So one way or another, you're gonna engage them or they'll escape (because you're wearing plate and you run like a log). Only way this calculus changes is if they have something to escape through - a way to cut off your pursuit, like starting the fight 20 feet up a wall or some such...

... and that's where Contempt of Distance kicks in.

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>>49333056
You've seen the Shackled Court preview for the upcoming Ancalia gazetteer? Ancalia is basically ruled by 4 Uncreated Courts with major big bads that are by default a challenge for 4 level 8 Godbound.

In other words, it's a a bitch and a half to get that country running again even for demigods. Really makes me wonder if all the nations in Arcem is as hard to conquer. Complete Realm domination might be a multi-year campaign goal.

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>>49333154

By default, ranged combat is near-objectively superior to melee combat due to the fact that ranged characters are entitled to 1d10 damage from 40 yards away simply by dual-wielding ranged or thrown weapons.

The only meaningful advantages that melee has over ranged are:
1. The Might Word's Strength 19, and even then, that can be applied to range using one of the passive attack upgrade gifts.
2. The Sword Word's defensive gifts.

Thus, in your scenario:
>Good luck against that Sword monster, Brand the Bowman.
The ranged combatant can continue to pellet the melee character with Bolts of Invincible Skill.

Either way, Bolt of Invincible Skill and Unerring Blade are still far and away the best automatic hit options for a Godbound due to the nearly assured hit, the maximized damage, and the luxury of using it only to convert a miss into a hit. No Walls Stand is 3 gift points deep, and The Seeking Flight does not come with automatic hits or maximized damage.

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>>49335147
>>49333154

Also, as far as melee vs. ranged damage output is concerned:

>you take a petty shit blow (assuming it even hits)

This is false for the most part when comparing a moderate-investment melee character to a moderate-investment ranged character. Bolt of Invincible Skill and Unerring Blade will both set damage to 4 automatically, and the Might Word's Loosening God's Teeth works for both melee attacks and ranged attacks.

Attacking from 40 yards away for 1d10 damage is no small deal in a game wherein default movement rate is 30 feet and charging does not exist. Attacking from 120 yards away for a mild decrease to 1d8 damage is another good option.

Either way, ranged characters have, by default, a huge advantage in the action economy over melee characters. If a melee character stops to use smites like Divine Wrath and Corona of Fury, then they are not actually employing their melee combat gifts.

>>49335147
>>49335241
Hmmm. Surely melee PCs worried about ranged enemies will have either Leap the Moon or Alacrity gifts? Consider that the vast majority of the enemies the PCs will fight have only one or two gifts and limited effort.

The moment that they challenge word bound entities who can miracle up killer combos, it's reasonable to expect that they're fairly high level and have built their character for movement.

Freeform miracle use by the melee PC to shut down movement is also supported and suggested by the game. Either the enemy stops moving, or they lose effort which they have much less of compared with the PCs.

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>>49335651

The issue with this logic is that:

1. Melee characters need a mobility gift to assure that they can successfully close in on the first turn, unless they want to settle for a Smite (which costs Effort and might not leave them with enough movement to close in).

2. Ranged characters do not need such a gift, but if they take a mobility gift anyway, they can suddenly use it to kite.

Any mostly utility-focused character can suddenly become a rock-solid combatant simply by taking the Bow Word and spending 3 gift points on Bolt of Invincible Skill and Rain of Sorrow. A utility-focused character trying to do the same with the Sword Word will probably not get as good a deal.

Melee only gets to justify itself over ranged at higher degrees of investment, when a character can afford to pick up mobility gifts, Nine Iron Walls, and the like.

>>49335748
Point taken. You didn't even mention the 500 yard range magnetic rifles of the Bright Republic too. Snipers are trouble in this system. That should inform my scenario design.

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>>49336114

This is true. I also said "120 yards" in >>49335241 when I meant "300 yards" for bows and crossbows.

Magnetic rifles have 500 yards, but they function only in the Bright Republic by default. Still, nothing is stopping you from picking up a bow or a crossbow and plinking away from 300 yards.

Snipers can be disgustingly cheesy in this system, as as alluded to in the sidebar for the Bow Word. All it takes is Bow, Sun, and whatever third utility Word one fancies. I would personally take Alacrity, Bow, Command, Deception, Knowledge, Might, Passion, or Time to improve an attribute of 8 at character creation to a much higher value.

Gifts are simple:
Bow: Bolt of Invincible Skill (lesser), None Beyond Reach (lesser), The Inexorable Shaft (greater)
Sun: Creation's First Light (greater)

Find yourself a good, elevated vantage point and activate Creation's First Light.

>Creation’s First Light, On Turn
>Commit Effort. Your vision penetrates any non-magical barrier, allowing you to see anything and everything out to the horizon. Focusing on something not in the immediate area requires a round. This vision automatically penetrates illusions and sees the true shape of shapeshifters. It cannot pierce the gifts of the Deception Word, however.

Once you have located your target, commit Effort to The Inexorable Shaft and start firing away. Use a pair of thrown or one-handed ranged weapons for 1d10 + Dexterity modifier damage; None Beyond Reach should extend their range indefinitely. Bolt of Invincible Skill will ensure an automatic initial hit, and The Inexorable Shaft should allow your shots to penetrate any barriers.

As long as you keep up Creation's First Light and The Inexorable Shaft, you should be able to continuously fire away at your hapless target from miles away.

What D&D setting could Godbound break pretty quickly?

Hard Mode: They do it at level one.

Kevin Crawford's own Other Dust post apocalyptic setting is my choice. That damn setting is basically a wonderful playground for an Artifice/Health/Fertility Godbound. They'll be able to restore Earth to its former glory pretty damn quick.

The Big Bads of the setting also have about 18 HD by default too. So midrange Godbound should splatter them.

>>49336211
Y... you don't mean... that dedicated mobile ranged combatants with miraculous powers can be really effective when moving and shooting at range?

LIKE OMFG

STOP THE FUCKING PRESSES

>>49335748
>Any mostly utility-focused character can suddenly become a rock-solid combatant simply by taking the Bow Word and spending 3 gift points

>Any mostly utility-focused character
>3 gift points

You are truly the greatest cancer of all. Pathfinder shitpost fag is less of a retard than you.

>>49333743
> The Chained Lady.

Well. Now there's a magical realm I didn't know I had until this moment.

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>>49340410

Yes, whereas melee characters need those to catch up in the first place.

Melee can mechanically vindicate itself over ranged only at higher degrees of Word and gift point investment. Even the Might Word can be shoehorned into a rather effective ranged build using Descent of the Mountain and the Bow Word's Bolt of Invincible Skill.

>>49340431

Considering that level 1 Godbound start off with three Words and 6 gift points by default and gain +3 gift points with each level, yes, a single Word and 3 gift points is a relatively small investment for a mostly-utility-oriented Godbound to shoot out Bolts of Invincible Skill, on top of Rain of Sorrow against Mobs.

Divine Wrath will outpace the autohit gifts though. If I was a utility Godbound, I'd rather invest in that as early as possible instead.

Of course by second level I'd buy an autohit gift anyway to have an attack in between smites.

>>49340492
>Yes, whereas melee characters need those to catch up in the first place.

No. They don't.

If the melee dude has movement Gifts and the ranged dude doesn't, then melee dude wins.

If the melee dude doesn't have movement Gifts and the ranged dude does, then ranged dude wins.

If neither of them does, then ranged dude gets off a shot or two (assuming melee dude is in a white room with no cover) which melee dude can use his superior defensive Gifts against even assuming they hit him (which is not remotely a given), then either ranged dude runs away or gets engaged and murdered. One or the other.

This isn't for you, of course, Colette. It's for any poor fag reading this who thinks your incredible dumbfuck autism is actually reflective of the game. Like, for example...

>gain +3 gift points with each level

2 gift points, you fucking idiot.

3 gift points is half your starting allotment or ONE AND A HALF LEVELS WORTH. It is not a "relatively small investment".

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>>49340664

Divine Wrath deals more average damage than a Bolt of Invincible Skill only by level 4. Even then, Bolt is more Effort-efficient since it can be used to transform a miss into a maximum-damage hit. It will only be around level 6 or so that Divine Wrath becomes clearly better than Bolt, and even then, you can easily have both by the time.

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>>49340492
ITT: hack illustrators who don't know jack-shit about archery, and couldn't be bothered to google it, and would rather erase part of the arrow than tilt the perspective five degrees.

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>>49340697

Yes, you are correct on +2 gift points per level, not +3. I erred.

3 gift points is absolutely a relatively small investment over a character's career. By level 3, a character has 10 total gift points to spend, so that is 30% of their gift points spent on being quite a capable combatant. Everything else goes into noncombat utility, so the character can function quite well both in and out of battle.

>ranged dude gets off a shot or two (assuming melee dude is in a white room with no cover) which melee dude can use his superior defensive Gifts against even assuming they hit him (which is not remotely a given), then either ranged dude runs away or gets engaged and murdered.
This example is misleading on five counts.

For one, just as the melee character will have a high chance of landing a powerful blow due to Unerring Blade, so too will the ranged character have a shot (literally) at doing the same with Bolt of Invincible Skill.

For two, PvP comparisons are not helpful. It is better to examine what a character can do to contribute to typical party battles against: (A) Mobs, (B) powerful singular opponents, and (C) a mix of both.

For three, we need to examine characters with equal amounts of combat-related gift point expenditures. Thus, if the ranged character has only Bolt of Invincible Skill and Rain of Sorrow, then the melee character should have only Unerring Blade, Nine Iron Walls, and a single other direct-combat lesser gift.

For four, your example scenario still favors the ranged character, because the ranged character has one or two extra attacks over the melee character at the start of combat. If and when they hit due to Bolt of Invincible Skill, the melee character has to expend Effort of their own on Nine Iron Walls.

For five, a ranged character does not suddenly grow frail and incompetent if engaged in melee. They can still fire off Bolts of Invincible Skill and use Rain of Sorrow without issue.

Ranged characters still have a major edge.

>>49335748
>Any mostly utility-focused character can suddenly become a rock-solid combatant simply by taking the Bow Word and spending 3 gift points
>If you take a dedicated combat word and invest in it, you'll be good at combat
Hitting it out of the park with those amazing revelations as always, Colette.

>>49340930
>For two, PvP comparisons are not helpful. It is better to examine what a character can do to contribute to typical party battles against: (A) Mobs, (B) powerful singular opponents, and (C) a mix of both.
>For three, we need to examine characters with equal amounts of combat-related gift point expenditures. Thus, if the ranged character has only Bolt of Invincible Skill and Rain of Sorrow, then the melee character should have only Unerring Blade, Nine Iron Walls, and a single other direct-combat lesser gift.

Do you even coherence?

>>49340930
Bow users get the edge in attacks while closing, it's true. Because they don't get the same degree of defences. That's how pretty much every game in the history of forever has worked.

You don't actually play Godbound, that much is clear Colette. Do you actually play any RPGs at all?

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>>49341253

The point is that it is a much better 3-point package than, say, investing in 3 points of melee-oriented gifts or Strife abilities.

>>49341447

These are not mutually exclusive statements. We must consider characters with roughly equal point investments in their respective combat styles in terms of what they can do to contribute to typical party battles against: (A) Mobs, (B) powerful singular opponents, and (C) a mix of both.

>>49341473

>Bow users get the edge in attacks while closing, it's true. Because they don't get the same degree of defences.

Ranged characters receive the luxury of 40 yard range with 1d10 damage weapons or *300* yard range with 1d8 damage weapons... essentially for free.

Melee characters have to purchase Nine Iron Walls with gift points and spend Effort for it.

This is not symmetrical when the melee character has to pay for their special benefit. At lower levels, the Effort cost for Nine Iron Walls is especially damning, when that same Effort could be fueling Bolt of Invincible Skill or Unerring Blade.

>>49341608
>Ranged characters receive the luxury of 40 yard range with 1d10 damage weapons or *300* yard range with 1d8 damage weapons... essentially for free.

Yes, you fucking idiot. Assuming we let someone throw two javelins at once for 1d10 (which isn't specified as an option anywhere, but let's just assume your whiteroom bullshit is true) they totally could hit someone for average 2-3 damage once before they got engaged.

THEN THEY FUCKING DIE. Because now they're up close with a murder machine and no quantity of BoIS is going to help them, even assuming we're talking about opponents with Gifts.

You have never played this game and I claim my $10.

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>>49343182

>Assuming we let someone throw two javelins at once for 1d10 (which isn't specified as an option anywhere, but let's just assume your whiteroom bullshit is true)
Kevin Crawford specifically allows this: https://plus.google.com/109542481433257987536/posts/AxHrqPogcfe

>they totally could hit someone for average 2-3 damage once before they got engaged.
4 damage if they miss, spend Effort, and activate Bolt of Invincible Skill.

>THEN THEY FUCKING DIE. Because now they're up close with a murder machine and no quantity of BoIS is going to help them, even assuming we're talking about opponents with Gifts.
Remember: We are not considering a ranged-focused character who is sinking heavy investments into combat. We are merely considering a character with the Bow Word and 3 gift points into Bolt of Invincible Skill and Rain of Sorrow.

If we want to have this character be a dedicated "mid-range combatant who can take a hit" at level 1, we should give them the Bow and Endurance Words (their third Word can be a purely noncombat utility Word), Effort of the Word, Bolt of Invincible Skill, Rain of Sorrow, and Fear No Steel.

Now, the character can deliver three Bolts of Invincible Skill at range per scene and shrug off a significant amount of damage.

The reason to be a ranged character is for the built-in, no-cost massive range in a system that has no "charge" combat option. Melee weaponry simply has no such built-in, no-cost benefit to match, unless you count the Might Word (which can work for ranged weapons as well).

>>49343667
2hu, where can I find the errata?

There is no errata, there's just him answering GM questions on G+ or rpg.net.

>>49343786
Ah, so it's more a ruling than errata.

>>49343667
>"charge"
What even do you mean by this, exactly?

If it's "move twice your speed, and make an attack at the end (presumably with some penalty)", then you're only removing one round of the necessary run-up right at the end, and it provides no bonus if, say, the ranged attacker is on top of something.

If you mean "move indefinitely in a straight line, then attack," then you're effectively giving everyone one of the Alacrity minor gifts.

I would also like to take the time to laugh at this hypothetical player who wanted to run up and hit things but never considered that maybe they'd need a gift for people who are sitting on top of buildings or trees, which is just a more readily-visible version of the problem you're discussing.

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>>49344420

Action economy is everything in D&D- or d20-style RPGs, and Godbound is no exception.

A ranged Godbound does not have to take a mobility gift to be able to open fire open whichever opponent strikes their fancy. A melee Godbound *does* (unless they want to use an action and Effort on a Smite).

If the ranged Godbound takes a mobility gift anyway, they can use it in a way normally unavailable to the melee Godbound: kiting.

Ranged weaponry still has the edge by default here.

>>49343667
Fear No Steel requires an effort commitment.

>>49344459
So basically, you're not actually offering a solution here, and just want to bitch about something?

Also
>big empty plains devoid of anything with only two people on it are perfect examples of gameplay

Add in even just a long, straight wall between them, and our Swordist can no longer be fired upon. Make that an urban environment, and the archer is now in a clusterfuck and Sword has the advantage.

>b-buh Bow gifts in melee!
5-second patch: -4 to hit in melee. Sure, you can expend Effort to autohit, but so can the swordsman, and he gets a free hit if you move back into a more effective range.

>>49344459
An alternative would be something like Smite, but recommending that a Godbound take a ranged gift or something to compensate for the range isn't a poor suggestion. Neither is suggesting that a ranged attacker take something for prolonged longevity.

A mobility gift would also need to be countered by a mobility gift in the example of a ranged godbound vs. a melee godbound, but those gifts also eliminate much of the advantage of range because the range in which they can attack is usually less than the distance mobility gifts have, IIRC.

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>>49344466

You are right. Despite the higher price, it is still a good alternative to Nine Iron Walls due to how it effectively allows you to save a single point of Effort to passively reduce all incoming damage by 1, even if it does not come from a physical source. It is weaker in a single round, of course, but over a whole battle, it can be fairly cost-effective (and it can be abandoned as you make that last-ditch Bolt of Invincible Skill to try to finish off the last opponent).

>>49344558

>So basically, you're not actually offering a solution here, and just want to bitch about something?
Pointing out that melee weapons lack a default, out-of-the-box benefit raises awareness.

>Add in even just a long, straight wall between them, and our Swordist can no longer be fired upon.

If there is a long, straight wall between the two of them that offers no possibility of being fired through or around, then there is no battle at all unless either of them has The Inexorable Shaft or Shattering Hand.

>5-second patch: -4 to hit in melee. Sure, you can expend Effort to autohit, but so can the swordsman, and he gets a free hit if you move back into a more effective range.
That is a house rule.

>>49344564

>the range in which they can attack is usually less than the distance mobility gifts have, IIRC.
Not necessarily. Alacrity's All-Encompassing Presence confers 200 feet of movement, which is still beaten by regular bow or crossbow range, let alone line-of-sight lesser gift range.

Essentially, it is a shame that there is no real out-of-the-box benefit for melee weaponry, not even something as simple as "higher damage."

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>>49344637
>raises awareness
OK, we're aware. Now what?

>that offers no possibility of being fired through or around
When did I say that? I just said a wall. Could just be a little wall, or it could have holes in it.

>a house rule
>I'll complain about something, and admit that I have no theoretical fixes, and then when offered a potential fix, complain that it's a house rule

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>>49344669

>Could just be a little wall, or it could have holes in it.

Unless either Godbound has wall-penetrating gifts, both are at a disadvantage if they are set on harming each other.

That said, as I have mentioned previously, PvP comparisons are of little use. We should instead be considering characters with roughly equal point investments in their respective combat styles in terms of what they can do to contribute to typical party battles against: (A) Mobs, (B) powerful singular opponents, and (C) a mix of both.

House rules can be valid fixes, but they are not an excuse to refuse to acknowledge that a mechanical issue exists.

>>49344775
There's also a huge issue, I think, that you will suffer with your approach to this game. Godbound will play absolutely differently depending on who runs it. The guidelines given in the rules are simply unsuited to running an objective, tournament-style game. You will be able to perform feats depending on how the GM describes, much like other OSR games. Much more would be necessary to ensure that all GMs referee in line, thus your assumed expectations are likely to be defied if you ever do play a game of it. It's a common phrase in OSR: "Rulings not rules." The GM trumps any particular rules they wish, much like the rule zero of 3.5e D&D. The difference here is that many games are more clearly defined. If you do something a certain way over and over again, the only variation depends on dice rolls. In OSR games, the same action falls in different ways depending on GM rulings.

In games suited to tournament style play GM-fiat tends to defy rules or is used to make up the gaps in the system. In OSR games, like Godbound, they're a given — not necessarily just to fill up gaps but because they ARE the rules.

If I'm understanding this argument right, it boils down to range combat being better than melee.

so... no Shit? There's a reason modern warfare involves shooting at each other and not charging wildly into a swirling melee.

>>49345260
This is a narrativist game about demigods– realism doesn't factor in so much. The problem with the argument is that it comes from the angle that the game should be eligible for tournament style play out of the box, and that if it's viewed through that lense then one singular "correct" method of building a character will appear.

It's true, from the angle of playing Godbound at a tournament, there is one "correct" style of character to build. But this discounts the average casual play that Godbound was designed around.

...Tournament style?

People play RPG's tournament style?


What is that, just a series of 1 on 1 duels?

>>49345448
>Otherwise, there would be no way for us to actually speak of the rules beyond the vaguest of notions.
I both agree with you and disagree with you. Terminology such as, "How I would rule this..." unfortunately becomes perfectly valid when it comes to games like these. It becomes a discussion on which way to house-rule, because many of the rulings will be from the DM. It's simply not a system that's robust enough to allow the objective analysis that's applied to it. Whether that's bad or good depends entirely on your taste, I feel.

>you could have both the Bow and Sword Words, take Nine Iron Walls, and then use ranged gifts anyway.

Still if you look at it from the objective viewpoint, there are still certain highly specific "correct" paths. I don't feel that's taking the way the game was made into account.

>>49345366
They used to.

>>49344637
>Pointing out that melee weapons lack a default, out-of-the-box benefit raises awareness.
Sword has almost the same benefit that Bow has. Can't be disarmed, can summon your weapon anywhere. The only difference is infinite ammunition... but only because Sword doesn't require it.

>>49345936
Ah, but in a white room, the Bow user will get some free shots on the Sword user because of the range advantage. This clearly cannot be overcome in any way and represents an entirely broken game.

>>49346009
Even if the Bow user doesn't get the free shots... he's at the same spot as the sword user.

Bow user has a situation in which he performs better. Sword user has a situation in which he performs just as well.

You really don't see the issue with this?

>>49346274
>It is hardly unthinkable that encounters will begin more than 30 feet away from the enemy.
Most cityfighting occurs within that range

>>49346312
>Bow user has a situation in which he performs better. Sword user has a situation in which he performs just as well.
Not really. It's not particularly hard to create a situation where a bow user would be at a gigantic disadvantage as well (hell, nothing you've mentioned even takes note of Path Through War, which would completely blow your combat scenarios out of the water).

>>49346009
>This clearly cannot be overcome in any way and represents an entirely broken game.
That made me laugh. Kudos.

>>49346274
In all those situations, the difference is, give or take a gift point
>Bow gets some hits before they enter range, if the enemy isn't also ranged
>Sword does slightly more damage in most builds
even if we go along with the white room. Add in tactical decisions by players and enemies (like hiding behind a wall, or taking an elevated position), or terrain, or objectives other than "kill that guy," or about a thousand other things, and this comes out to basically nothing.

Also, stop repeating the exact same lines, it makes you look even more autistic than you already are.

>>49346530
>The Bow-user and the Sword-user are equally screwed over by a major supernatural opponent throwing up The Path Through War; they must take an action to offensively dispel it, *then* resume their onslaught with Bolt of Invincible Skill or Unerring Blade.
Suppression requires a justified use of a miracle. What justification could you use to suppress someone's defenses?

>In other words, The Path Through War will only delay any Bow- or Sword-user by a single turn and a single Effort for the day.
It'll delay until the gap is closed, at which point the sword and bow user are on equal terms.

>>49346530
>This comparison gets murkier when they start to take Bow- or Sword-specific gifts such as Rain of Sorrow or Nine Iron Walls, but at the baseline, ranged weapons definitely outclass melee weaponry.
Is there some system where this isn't the case? shit even irl ranged weapons have significant advantages over melee, and I don't see an issue with that being true when talking about low level demigods.

>>49346775
>Firing a celestial arrow or performing a divine sword slash that shatters defenses.
Do you know what the phrase "invincible defense" means?

>>49347382
>Our hypothetical Bow- or Sword-bonded Godbound will surely have other Words at their disposal. They perhaps could use a mental Word such as Command, Deception, Knowledge, or Passion to throw the Path Through War-user off their metaphorical game, disrupting their impregnable battle stance.
In theory, but it breaks the parameters of Bow-Bitch's argument that on equal terms and with no other outside factors, Bow beats Sword hands down.

So looking at the weapons, is there ever a point to taking only a single light weapon? I suppose you could add a shield if you were a dex fighter, but if you're relying on dex for damage you probably don't need that boost to your AC.

>>49347772
Not if you're talking strict mechanical optimization, no. In any number of theoretical, commonly occurring corner cases you might be better off or stuck with a smaller weapon, but if you have the luxury of arming yourself as well as you want, you should probably go big every time.

Personally, I quite like the "I always roll a d10" Gifts for the number of interesting corner cases that seem to come up in every campaign. The Sword one less so, since you've already got the ability to pull a halberd out of your arse should the need arise from the Word itself. If you have one of those, you're free to use a small weapon because you like the idea of using a small weapon without worrying about mechanical optimization.

>>49347977
Also, the Artifice one isn't that interesting compared to the secret Artifice one, which is Ten Thousand Tools, and which allows you to create your favourite weapon during an attack action. Just think about how fast that is. Someone jumps you in your bedroom and you've crafted your pillow into a greataxe in less time than it takes to swing one.

>>49347772
an additional -5% for the enemy to hit you vs a 10% chance to hit for 4 damage on an attack.

Basically the same tradeoff as taking a medium weapon and shield vs a heavy weapon.

If the dex fighter is willing to take heavy armor/Regalia armor that acts as heavy armor and the Deception word, they can reach 0 AC at character creation if they go for a light weapon+shield

>>49348044
Am I missing something? Heavy armour gets you AC3, maxed Dex gets you AC0, and a shield on top of that gets you AC-1.

>>49348392
Thought there was a cap of AC0. Made gods have the best AC in the book, and they're AC0

>>49348459
I can't see a reference to a cap, and the guide for converting creatures says

>Extremely low armor classes should be rare; anything
>below AC 0 should be highly unusual.

which implies that there are creatures with negative ACs.

>Monstrous beasts and other dire terrors shouldn't have an
>AC below 0 unless their nigh-invulnerability is a specific trait
>to be emphasized.

AC-1 isn't that much better than AC0, but if you wanted to go for the best AC available within the book material, there it is.

>>49348592
I got the impression the book likes the idea of only PCs having negative AC.

>>49347772
>is there ever a point to taking only a single light weapon

Any number of Words can make your choice of weapon totally irrelevant - Sky, Death, Fire, Sword... I get the impression that weapon choice is mostly flavor.

In non 2hu-bullshit news, apparently the two planned additions to the line at present are:

- An Ancalia Gazateer (more of the stuff above with the Chained Court)
- A book of additional Words

Sixteen Sorrows is nice, but I would definitely prefer the chained-fair-folk-tiddies-in-a-zombie-apocalypse sourcebook.

Wait, what the fuck? Who's the useless twat deleting posts TALKING DIRECTLY ABOUT THE GAME, while leaving trolling, whining dogshit like >>49340431 ?

>>49348759
It seems to be the only one that got deleted, most of Colette's sperging is still up.

Anyone actually run this or play this? Tell me your stories. This system is especially suited to the shenanigans /tg/ likes to post about.

>>49350379
Ran a fucking fantastic test game two weeks ago with two players. Death/Passion/Sword for one, Artifice/Knowledge/Bow for the other. I threw them against some bandit encounters for shits and giggles, which they stomped to pieces, then I threw in an Eldritch which murdered the fuck out of them both because I'm a dumb bitch who hadn't read the bit in the book on changing the stats for player numbers. But a good time was had by all until my anus got in the way.

I'm running a campaign soon and I have like a dozen players wanting in. I might have to set up a Thunderdome. Dunno where I'm gonna set it yet - I like Ancalia, because chainslut demons and zombie knights, but I also kinda want to run something involving the whole Romans vs Chinese shit going on in the south of Arcem. Or maybe the sheer fucking brilliance that is Euphoric State of Fedoria. Just too many cool ideas in the book, decision paralysis is kicking in.

>>49350506
I'm thinking of running a game starting out in Bleak Reach, since you can have some guy from FirstWorldistan rubbing elbows with the deliberately-illiterate Mongols and throw in some Euphorics and Italians for good measure. Basically the geopolitical equivalent of "you all meet in a tavern".

One good thing about the system/setting, if your players decide somewhere else is more interesting, it's pretty easy for even non-Journeying Godbound to just walk to wherever they want to be.

>>49336834
Any of the tsr settings, as long as you did it all Frank Franzetta's Deathbringer rather than lotr.

Anyone looking to make gifts or use freeform miracles needs to check out page 169 and the impairing powers list. It's awesome for inspiration. The next page on styling powers is pretty useful for PCs too.

Planning to make a gift that creates a zone that makes foes AC 9 for scene duration.

>>49350816
Oh man, the Howlers are even better than Mongols. According to Crawford that entire area is basically Mad Max except all the vehicles are tricked out monsters, and there's a shit load of magical radiation and badlands.The Bleak Reach is basically the ruins of an H.R. Giger land that was ruled by machines.

>>49351722
>>49350816
all of this just makes me sadder that my group broke up

>>49351722
Fuck that sounds so much more awesome than the description in the book.

This is a problem, actually. The stuff in the book is OK, but it's split into genuinely interesting and original-sounding settings (the Atheocracy, Bright Republic, the Thousand Gods, that one with the autocossacks) and other ones which tend to sound relatively uninspired (Ancalian knights-and-zombies, Oasis states generic-sandy-desert-nation bullshit, the whole Dulimbai = China, Patria = Rome thing).

Except then you hear Crawford talk about the magical transhumanist nobles in Ancalia, or these Mad Max badasses in the Howler region, and you realise that the one-page potted summary is barely scratching the surface.

I guess if you're devoted to one-page-per-nation you kind of get stuck with this?

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>>49351982

>I guess if you're devoted to one-page-per-nation you kind of get stuck with this?

Yeah. Which is why I really hope Godbound ends up being as profitable for him as SWN. It's obvious that he has enough material for gazetteers. Dulimbai is pretty much China yeah, but Patria is a mix of Zulu and Rome. I've been reading up on the military tactics of those two and I'm trying to mix em up.

Ancalia was also a High Fantasy Transhuman Kingdom with an Ethiopian flavor which isn't something you read about every day. This preview makes the area more interesting for me.

>>49352167
It fucking better be. I want more Godbound dammit. I seriously haven't even thought about Ex3 in months.

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Posting here cuz the gamefinder thread died

>GM or player
GM
>System
Godbound
>Time availability
Weekends anytime from 8am-8pm PST
>Text or Voice
Text
>Method of playing (Roll20, IRC, Skype)
Roll 20
>Contact information
Honshu #7285 on Discord
>Additional information
https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/56266/dominions-dawn-of-the-second-age-godbound

This game will be taking place in the Dominions 4 universe and will be organized and played over Roll20. You needn't be familiar with Dominions to play, it's just serving as a setting on which to run my own game.

There are a couple house rules to the base game, but most of them comprise of new systems to make the Godbound resemble Dominions more. Key things are going to be making Pretenders revive based on the faith of their followers, meaning all Pretenders are going to be immortal unless the cults that support them are scattered, introducing Magic Sites and Gems to be used alongside Dominion to weave miracles and make Features, and finally homebrewed Low Magic

Players can expect a focus on nation building, faction interaction, and discovery

Need one more player to round us off at 5 after a different one dropped due to scheduling issues

>>49352167
The heroic Patriarch Ezek holds fast in his mountain sanctuary, praying with the surviving Uniter bishops for the salvation of his people and mercy for their souls.
>Thanks to a tremendous trove of Uniter relics and sacred objects, the patriarch's sanctuary has become a refuge for the souls of those slain in Ancalia. From the northern cape down to the Gojeb river to the south, all who die are preserved from Hell's flames and allowed peaceful sleep in the earth. The husks their bodies leave behind are only lesser undead and soulless shells, while the slain have peace at last from their agonies.
>Yet this salvation comes at a price. The strain of the holy rituals and prayers is slowly killing off the surviving bishops, leaving all the greater burden on Patriarch Ezek's shoulders. The time-consuming rituals and need for specially-consecrated ground also mean that the patriarch cannot leave the sanctuary or lend his holy theurgic powers to the defense of Ancalia.
>For him to leave off his prayers would mean the damnation of countless wretched souls who die without benefit of proper funerary rites. Ezek feels that however terrible the situation may be for the living, it is his holy duty to preserve their souls from the everlasting agonies of damnation. He and his loyal bishops can maintain this guard for years more if no disaster strikes, but eventually, the strain will overcome him.

Fucking hell. I would watch the fuck out of that show.

>>49352167
>The heroic Patriarch Ezek holds fast in his mountain sanctuary, praying with the surviving Uniter bishops for the salvation of his people and mercy for their souls. Thanks to a tremendous trove of Uniter relics and sacred objects, the patriarch's sanctuary has become a refuge for the souls of those slain in Ancalia.
>From the northern cape down to the Gojeb river to the south, all who die are preserved from Hell's flames and allowed peaceful sleep in the earth. The husks their bodies leave behind are only lesser undead and soulless shells, while the slain have peace at last from their agonies.
>Yet this salvation comes at a price. The strain of the holy rituals and prayers is slowly killing off the surviving bishops, leaving all the greater burden on Patriarch Ezek's shoulders. The time-consuming rituals and need for specially-consecrated ground also mean that the patriarch cannot leave the sanctuary or lend his holy theurgic powers to the defense of Ancalia.
>For him to leave off his prayers would mean the damnation of countless wretched souls who die without benefit of proper funerary rites. Ezek feels that however terrible the situation may be for the living, it is his holy duty to preserve their souls from the everlasting agonies of damnation.
>He and his loyal bishops can maintain this guard for years more if no disaster strikes, but eventually, the strain will overcome him.

I would watch the fuck out of this show.

(So good I posted it twice)

I'm making a pregen for an RPG newbie. What would be a good concept and word choices?

>>49354502
Not sure for concept, but for the build, I'd suggest something good for leading and general use. Maybe Command/Health/Sun?

>>49345448
2hu, I kind of want to run a game for you, and most likely some other players of course, sometime. We've gone back and forth a time or two on all of this. I run very old-school, but if you're interested find Punch on #suptg at irc.thisisnotatrueending.com.