What do you do to humanize your villains, /tg/?

Their goals are just opposite of yours.

The barbarian king that is invading the kingdom because his people are starving and need new lands to settle, that sort of thing.

Don't do this
>>49267624

There are actually assholes in the world.
Some fanboys try to make it out like Vader had any leg to stand on about being in the right, and that undermines everything that's interesting about Darth Vader as a character.

Your own image provides a much better example. Just because they're an awful human being doesn't mean they don't have quiet moments, foibles, and human moments.

One of my other favorite humanizing Vader comics, has him terrifying some poor maintenance engineer because Vader actually takes an interest in what he's doing. The engineer assumes he's fucking up, but it's just that Vader still loves building crap.

I portray them as human duh

>>49267760
That sounds so funny, just the fucking righthand man of the Emperor begins hanging around you because it'd be weird for him to have a worktable to work on.

>>49267864
It makes it even funnier when you realise most of the empire see's Vader as a literal god.

>>49267591
>humanize the villian
Why?

Do you want your characters to have some morale conflict? Because they won't.

Villians should just be a grand climax where everybody gets to do cool shit.

No one will remember the villian went spooky bad because he was trying to attract true heroes to save his land from itself or anything. All they'll remember is the fat golden bricks he was sitting on, or how the token mexican wrestler character pile drived him into a different plane.

>>49267591
Not for a campaign, but a speech I've got a villain delivering (via what is essentially radio) goes along these lines:
>Attention, citizens of Delta City. My forces have your city surrounded. We have neutralized your town guard and our intelligence estimates your national military will not be able to bring a force sufficient to challenge us for at least a week.
>We are giving all citizens 72 hours to leave the city peacefully. If you or a loved one has impaired mobility, we will be happy to provide an escort to assist you. If you leave, we will not pursue you; you will be free to live your life in peace, but you will never again return to this city. Anyone left within city limits after 72 hours have passed will be cut down without mercy.
>Thank you for your attention. I hope you folks have a pleasant day otherwise, and I will now turn the time over to your regularly-scheduled weather broadcast.

I still like my villains to be villainous, I just tend to remember that an evil person is still a person, not a monster.

>>49267760
Got any idea where I can find that?

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Karras from Thief 2 is a solid villain.
>see cameras and robots with faces on them
>think nothing of it, must be aesthetics
>robots start talking
>"I WANT THE YUMMY CUMMIES OF THE ALMIGHTY AND INFALLIBLE KARRAS" (paraphrase)
>realize something
>they all have the same face
>it's his face
>they all have the same voice
>his voice
>oh my god this dude is batshit
You genuinely hate this person and want to stop him even though he doesn't even appear in the flesh until the extreme end of the game. More and more creepy narcissism is thrown at you until you can't handle it.

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>>49267591
I rip off Star Trek

>>49267760
>Some fanboys try to make it out like Vader had any leg to stand on about being in the right
But that's the thing, on the OT he thought he was in the right. Sure, Emps was unabashedly evil, but Vader just wanted to bring order to the galaxy.

>>49267591
Is that the comic where the stormtrooper finds Darth Vader's diary? Man, I absolutely loved that one. Ending still makes me feel funny inside.

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I once had my PCs discover three dead, raped toddlers hidden in a privy in a roman senator's house. I played it 100% straight. They've never hated a character so much in their whole life.

>>49268049
bump for comic name

>>49268647

Even in the original trilogy he was part of a Fascist, Xenophobic, Empire. Also he had a rep for being kind of a murderous psychopath whom you should give a wide berth to, else he might use his fucking space sorcery to suffocate you.

Like, no one earns a reputation like that unless they go out and do it. In his head he might have thought this was all necessary to make sense of a chaotic universe, but he was all fucked up on Dark Side for decades, and let that be his guiding path to wreak terror upon the Galaxy.

>>49272285
I always thought of him as a broken person.
Going in first time i had zero knowledge of the EU or anything.
Something somewhere happened and he just chose the path that let him take his issues out physically which made him feel better. Somewhere some time he met the old dude who just fed the fire.

>>49272285
The dark side and Sith philosophy, which is arguably worse.

>>49272351

In a sense, that's exactly what Vader is, and always has been, and then he met the old man who took advantage of that. The Prequel trilogy turned him into a a little psycho with brief moments of clarity, who became a big time psycho with one brief moment of clarity.

Maybe it was his uprbringing as a slave, or being torn away from his mother to be inducted into a cult of Space-Warrior Wizards, or maybe it was just that puberty hit him hard. Who knows?

Also, I'll say this, there was definitely a good story in the prequels, somewhere, but it was bogged down by horrible writing and actors trying to cope with being the first to have to do everything against a green screen on such a huge project, leading to stilted performances (and maybe some poor directorial choices, because there were some legit good actors in that). Hell, the guy who played Jar Jar got fucked over big time, despite the fact that he pioneered mo-cap acting. He doesn't get his dick sucked like Andy Serkis, he just gets hate from people who accuse him of ruining their childhood.

There's an edit floating around that cuts down the Prequel Trilogy into just one movie, and it is such a massive improvement. They managed to make Anakin not a whiny little sociopath who probably Jedi mind-controlled Padme into loving him (In the regular prequel trilogy she kind of just loses all her personality by the third movie) and makes him seem like a good guy who has a lot of anger inside of him, but trying to do good, and makes his relationship with Padme more natural and progress normally (Thanks mostly to adding some deleted scenes that were cut from Episode II initially). It also makes Palpatine actually subtle and slowly corrupting him rather than just going "Hey, kid, did you know being a Sith is totally awesome and can keep your loved ones alive forever?"

Anyway, my point is, that Vader is interesting character without having to contrive reasons why he was justified.

>>49267591
I don't need to if the party are villains.

>>49268647
The empire was evil only because the rebels were the protagonists, you could easily make a movie portraying the rebels are terrorist scum trying the destroy order and civilization.

>>49272508

They blew up a fucking planet in the first movie, to make a point.

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>>49267591

>>49267926
Get better players

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Darth Vader is a fucking space gestapo officer. The Death Star is the moral equivalent of a concentration camp, but mobile, and Vader's primary motivation in the first movie is the defense of the Death Star.

In Empire and ROTJ Darth Vader is more like an aristocrat, whose motivation is dynastic in nature. He wants his son as an apprentice.

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I don't always humanize villains. Usually it does more harm than good but when I do I make it more personal to the characters.

For instance, one time during a side quest in a much larger campaign, the group was helping one of the players in particular hunt down a warlord that killed his family a long time ago. Thing was, this guy was of the same culture as that player, and they were a generic warrior nomad peoples that had slowly started to go extinct. This caused a bit of conflict with the player because the warlord he sought to kill represented the best and likely only chance to keep his people relevant at all and he might be able to grow them into a mighty civilization again. Killing the warlord would certainly lead to the fracturing of his warband and the eventual slow extinction of his people.

He killed the guy. Reasoned that if his people were to live on, he wouldn't want them to be brought up in the footsteps of that particular guy. Better death than subversion I guess. The rest of the players didn't really agree with his choice.

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>>49272285
>>49272351
>>49272477
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKArCuRQVNM

>>49267760
>Don't do this >>49267624
>There are actually assholes in the world.
Not that anon but:
1) It's still a perfectly valid antagonist. Not every antagonist has to be actually villainous.
2) He can still be villainous even if he has an admirable goal. Nothing stops him from being an asshole. He doesn't even try to achieve his goal peacefully. He only cares about his own. He doesn't care about people his braves slaughter, they're just pigs to him deserving nothing more.

>>49272535
>Implying that the good guys can't do a good old Exterminatus once in a while

>>49272477
Well, keep in mind that when Anakin was taken to be trained he was about to hit puberty and already thought Padme was cute, and she was only a few years older than him.

Then he gets taken to the Jedi Temple, trained into thinking that emotions and loved ones are bad along with all the strict physical and mental regimen, and this entire time his crush grows and festers in his heart.

His emotions get the best of him on multiple occasions, and barely scrapes by because of how strong in the Force he is until he gets his hand chopped off.

He gets vindictive and wants revenge upon the man who maimed him, and all this time Palpatine is quietly waiting and influencing him from the shadows, knowing that Anakin is probably going to be home his tool of destruction and devastation of the Jedi Order.

Finally, he gives Anakin the "tainted apple" of the power of immortality that a Sith can do, and all he asks for is to trust him. He manipulates facts and his personal image to make him be seen in the right, and when the crucial moment comes Anakin sides with the one man he believed had his back since his time at the Temple, and not Yods or Obi-Wan, who were trying to teach him things he didn't want to understand, nor give up his crush (now desire/love) of Padme.

Then it all comes crashing down and he's turned into Vader, and Padme dies and doesn't know that her kids are out there in the galaxy.

The story is good, but holy God did they go overboard with green screen, mo-cap, and CGI.

Then again, most movies in the late 90's and early 2000's went heavy on CGI to try and hide bad acting, when it just needed to have a better casting director.

>>49272578
Have some perspective.

No one cares about your magical realm fanfic. They care about what their character did, is doing, and is intended to do. They're not there to enable your sad sack tolkien world. They're there to enjoy interacting with friends and pretend they're not 150lbs overweight.

>>49272477
>There's an edit floating around that cuts down the Prequel Trilogy into just one movie, and it is such a massive improvement
Do you happen to remember what it's called?

>>49272665
What you've just written and what is indeed fine is the overarching plot. Problem is, it had a lot of pretty awful appendages and the scenes themselves were rather atrociously written and directed

>>49272666
Be a better DM then. Either way, someones fucking up if this is your view on it.

The point of telling a story, of making a world, is to cause intrigue and interest in that same world. If you don't, your players end up unabashedly uninterested in anything but themselves, like you said.

Using an example from DnD, there was that one story about the DM that made his characters play completely evil characters aiming for immortality. Once they had essentially conquered the world, the players were then pit against their own self made evil overlords, albeit a few hundred years later.

That would put them in the spot where they are automatically attached to both the villain and the "Hero".

Its not about the player, its about how you involve the player into the world at large. If you can't manage that as a DM, thats your fault, not your players.

>>49272285
His rep can't have been that hardcore if fucking Motti basically called his religion shit and made fun of him to his face and was surprised at what happened.

Imagine saying something like that to, I don't know, Heinrich Himmler, or Che Guevara. They'd just shoot you in the mouth. Yet this little faggot talks that maximum shit to Darth fucking Vader.

Emps must've kept him under wraps or something.

>>49268779
Child rape or murder is one of the most unforgiving crime so yeah, you generally have no conflict about what to do with the guy

>>49274025
Nah. Most at the time believed jedi and the force to be some sort of propaganda the order used to make people fear and respect them. Some even believed the jedi weren't even a thing as its a big galaxy and theres only 300ish of them in the old order before the fall so most people don't even have 6 degrees of relationship to someone who's seen one.
Guy legit thought vader was just a dude in a scary suit to intimidate using borrowed "power" from a now dead organization that he thought was literal propaganda and urban myth.
He was surprised when he found out it was in fact true to some extent that the odder parts of the story actually existed and were currently squeezing the life out of him.

Basically imagine a random guy in an edgemaster trench coat mafia get up came up to you and said he's a wizard and if you don't worship the ground he walks you'll be sorry.
At best you'd ignore him as a crazy and at worst you'd be like me and tell him to fuck off with his shit.
Now imagine if you suddenly can't breathe and the wizard is making it very clear that while his hand is 10 feet away he's the one crushing your windpipe.

>>49274081
I never got why people put rape on the same pedestal as murder. One is vastly worse than the other and we constantly show murder in what are now casual and public settings.

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>>49267591
I make them competent, compassionate leaders who hold themselves to the same standards they hold their subordinates to.

Loyalty is a transaction, paid up and down the chain. Much easier to keep track of, using a combination of actual markers to track favors.

A favor done is a favor to be repaid, it erodes the capability of a man to neglect his debts, and it's offensive to refuse to allow another to carry their burden - in addition to calling them weak, it also does weaken them.

Meritocracy is the name of the game. Anyone in my Evil Empire can step up and challenge me, whether it's on a single point of policy or for the whole shebang as leader. However, pursuing things past their resolution is both disgraceful and offensive to not just me, but the Empire that you should hold yourself above it. If you were truly right, you would have been proven by being able to win your case.

I don't even begrudge the Heroes their quest, although I shall oppose them. Conflict, be it with words or blade or arcane might, conflict leads us to the truth of our selves and our ideals.

But it has to be structured. Mindless violence merely causes destruction and distraction, as evidenced by the damage wrought by adventurers. At best they're wasteful, at worst they aggravate underlying problems with temporary solutions.

So, yeah. I tend to make my villains cynical people focused on "success is the definition of righteousness". If your cause is truly right, and you are capable enough to make it work, then you SHOULD win. If I lose, than either my ideals or my self was flawed, and that is as it should be.

My players fucking hate that though. See >>49267926. It was pretty funny when I had the BBEG present them with an itemized bill for damages caused along the way, then told them not to worry about paying it back. Especially since I had just monologued about his views on debt and obligation.

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>>49272665
It didn't help that the Jedi and the Sith are more of a Red and Blue morality system than a black and white Good vs. Evil.

Keep in mind that Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force, because the Jedi were too strong, and the Luke had to re-do it because instead of reeling the Jedi back Anakin went full Vader and tipped it the other way.

Jolee Bindo had that shit on lockdown.

>>49274161
We can understand murder more. B person wants to achieve X goal, and C person is in the way of it. Depending on how much we understand X goal we may even be able to understand the reason C person was killed. It's possible to understand murder, and not agree with it.

Rape is basically torture. It's taking someone and torturing them for your own enjoyment. At best the rapist just doesn't care that the victim is being tortured and psychologically scarred, at worst they like it more because of that.

>>49274494
Are you saying that nobody has ever murdered for no reason other than fun?
Or that nobody has ever raped to accomplish a goal?

>>49274161
Well, a lot of the problem with Child Rape is how we deal with rape as a traumatic event.

It is survivable for one thing, by definition otherwise it would be murder.

It's actually usually a lot less traumatic for children to make it out to be.

And now I have to say "Usually" doesn't mean "always", so no you can't go diddle kids and say "I'm not the one who hurts them, it's society!" The whole basis behind no-consent for children is that they can't assess how they'll react to your advances, and the imbalance of power in the relationship is too vulnerable to abuse whether by accident or design.

And if you fuck it up, or even do everything right and have a "healthy" sexual relationship with a child, they could still be one of the ones that gets damaged by it due to things happening on their end, internally, that you can't fix or control or whatever.

So, in the balance of things, it's not worth it to risk even a single child getting messed up for life so you can have moist genitals. And now that I've hopefully forestalled any assumption that I am defending or encouraging sexual relations with kids -

A lot of the time it IS far more damaging to them how society stigmatizes them and treats them as damaged. Kids are used to not having any power, they don't feel violated like an adult does. Usually.

But yeah, kids, adults, almost always people can get better from rape (excluding confounding factors.)

>>49272705
Not sure if it's the one he's talking about, but I know of one called The Phantom Edit that's meant to be about 90 minutes long. Done by the dorky guy from That 70s Show. Yes, really.

>>49274506
Not saying that at all (there are plenty of serial killers who enjoy murder, and there are documented case of rape being used for reasons such as eugenics).

But in the majority of instances representing these actions in modern fiction killing is being presented as a character wanting to accomplish a goal and rape is presented as a character violating a person for their own fun.

>>49274494
>>49274506

> Rape is always about power!

Rape is often about power. It can also be a learned response depending on the type of rape, of which violent assault is the rarest kind. A lot of rapists, like for instance child rapists, believe that since they aren't causing any physical damage that the only harm comes from the context the rape is viewed in.

Other times they excuse it as a transnational issue. That's your classic "Wife Rape" where the husband felt entitled to sex by providing income. Marital "Rape" has at times and in different societies actually been codified as an obligation.

Sometimes it's not even about power, there's no analysis, the person is just an opportunistic rapist. Like when a girl at a party is making out with you, but passes out and you keep going. The other person isn't even present, and you aren't trying to harm them, just get off.

>>49267973
I was expecting an "Amon from Korra" style speech, but damn I like that, especially the escort part.

>>49274580
As >>49274494 and >>49274564 I said nothing about power. Just that person A is enjoying themselves and is either uncaring that person B is not consenting or that lack of consent is the reason they are. And that's the reason I think we put rape on the same level as murder, since it's probably about on the same level as torture with the added element of it being primarily just for the fun of the person doing it, whatever source that fun comes from.

>>49272665
The big problem for me is that Anakin's fall to the dark side is very abrupt and almost forced seeming. He has these troubling vision's of Padme dying in childbirth and then the Emperor is all like "Oh yeah, i totally know a way to save her, all you need to do is join with me and murder a bunch of children" Anakin is all like, "Seems legit"

Then when he meets up with Padme and she's all like "WTF?!?" and then Obi-Wan appears and he totally assumes they're colluding so he force chokes her

It would have been much more believable and more in keeping with a lot of how his character is presented in Episode IV and also the earlier prequels if his fall had been brought about by him deciding that Obi-Wan and the other Jedi were pussying around and not getting shit done with respect to evil Sith shenanigans, so he decides to pretend to turn in order to find out who Darth Sidious really is and gets sucked in - Imagine the film ID but with less football hooligans and more lightsabres - then while he's doing that, he hears or has a vision of Padme's death, and blames himself for not being there. Then Darth Sidious starts working on him, until he blames Obi-Wan for her death, and then comes out with the "Did you know the Force can bring people back to life. The Jedi totally know about it but they won't tell you" so he becomes suspicious of the whole Jedi order. Then Sidious reveals himself to be Palpatine, Anakin is shocked, but decides he still needs to do his duty as a Jedi. So off he flies to the Jedi Temple, ranting and raving but they don't believe him, especially as Palpatine has leaked videos of Anakin doing bad shit to the whole Galaxy, so a fight breaks out, and then Obi-Wan shows up, the person he blames most for Padme's death, they fight, Obi-Wan wins but refrains from landing the killing blow, Anakin is then rebuilt by the Emperor into Vader, never having known that Padme lived long enough to bring two children into the world until the events of the OT

>>49274640
Equating malicious neglect with torture is stretching it quite a bit.

It can be torturous for the victim if that's how they choose to deal with it, but your insistence that the act of torturing is somehow intrinsic to being raped is one of the things that fucks the victims up.

After all, what if they don't feel it was tortured? Does that mean that on some level they were asking for it somehow? Or are they broken now, since they aren't feeling what everyone is saying they should feel.

What if they had an orgasm during it? What if they had the best fucking orgasm of their life! Does that excuse the rapists actions?

Nah man. You gotta have more nuance when dealing with this sort of thing.

Rape isn't NEARLY as bad as murder. I mean, if I raped your mom she could get better. If I murdered her, she would be gone forever.

How do you deal with things like regret rape, or intoxication when it's not clear how impaired the person is, or when both people are impaired? Are those "torture"?

The reason people put rape on the same level as murder nowadays (once again, marital rape was once institutionalized) is because we value individuals so much more as individuals than as parts of the community, then we did in the past.

And rape was kind of a big thing, what with Feminism and all and Marital rape.

Everybody glosses over that it was just as shameful if not more for a man to be raped back then, since they were considered to be more capable of acting, and it used to be that being a man also carried expectations of physical vigor and strength to fight off an attacker.

So rape got demonized. And while it is a cruel and terrible thing, the motto that "rape is worse than murder" has fucked up how we deal with it.

So we need to get back to telling people that they are strong and that rape sucks, but it IS survivable, and that's why we call them Survivors and not Victims.

Hey, what if we demonize rape like we already see...

But we ALSO demonize Murder to a much higher degree?

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>>49272535
Reminds me of one country that blew up two cities for roughtly the same reasons.

>>49275232
Hard to do. Lawful murder exists in a lot of cases. Demonizing it exposes you to bellicist civilisations or individuals.

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I don't always humanize my villains. But when I do, It's the little things.
He seems tired of all this shit or his monolgue is interrupted by the bad news carried by some henchman and he has to deal with disappointment/anger. He admits his mistakes when they happen. He reacts to the player wearing silly shit.
Things like that. He can be still very much evil dickhead but he has some moments that can be called anti-climatic.

He's just a fucking guy in a big world. Who happens to be evil

>>49267591
It's kind of hard to really humanize a villain in an RPG, because they players probably won't be seeing them on their "off time". They'll likely encounter the results of the villain's actions and face them in battle, but they can't see what they're doing when not fighting the PCs or torching villages, or whatever.

What I do, though, is usually give a villain some reasonable motivation, which drives their actions. Pretty much nobody does bad things just because it's evil (although in fantasy you can have demons that are literal embodiments of evil, which probably would). They do it because there's something to gain. They might feel their actions are justified in some way (it's for the greater good, they should be the one ruling the land, they're on a crusade for their god...), or they're just assholish enough that they don't give a damn about others as long as they get what they need.

>>49276495
What if the players attempt to use some kind of arcane scrying to spy on the BBEG to discover his plans, but when they check in on him at various points of the day he's usually playing cards with his henchmen or such.

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>>49274161
>I never got why people put rape on the same pedestal as murder.

Because men and women are different.

Women see rape as being as bad as murder because women were not usually the victims of murder. If an invading tribe conquers an area the men will be killed but the women will be raped and then absorbed into the conquering tribe.

Even very bad men will not usually murder or seriously harm a women, partly due to socialisation that men should not harm women and partly because women are not a threat to him, a woman can be kept in line with only minor threats and violence.

So although women intellectually know that murder is worse than rape they do not really understand it emotionally because they are not at risk of being murdered. But rape is still a real threat to them and something they are afraid of.

Men and young boys do get raped as well but they get murdered a lot more. So the threat of murder is a lot more worrying and visceral to males.

>>49268149
Dukat was best antagonist.

Also he genuinely did care for the Bjorans. Had he been more harsh they might not have got close enough to put a bomb in his house.

>>49274580
>Rape is always about power!

I never understood this.

Rape is about sex. If a man who was about to rape a women was offered consensual sex by her instead he wouldn't refuse it because he really wants power.

When people steal they are not doing so because they want power, they steal because they want the item they are stealing.

>>49275514
>Reminds me of one country that blew up two cities for roughtly the same reasons.

The two (while there are parallels) aren't really the same. The Empire of Japan was an incredibly hostile nation that had declared unilateral war against the US, and had displayed time and again that they were unwilling to compromise Officially, at any rate. There was some internal dissension, but it was far from unified. Dropping the nukes was an effort to prevent a full-scale invasion that would kill at least 1M American lives and millions of Japanese military and civilian lives.

Alderaan was a largely peaceful planet that had done nothing to merit being completely annihilated by a power that was, supposedly, charged with its protection.

The equivalent would be the US trying to convince a rebellious Texan senator to stop working against them, and them nuking Houston to punish him.

>>49276777
>When people steal they are not doing so because they want power, they steal because they want the item they are stealing.

Rape is also used to assert dominance, as it's the ultimate form of domination against another person (male AND female). While the sex is often enjoyable for the person doing the rape, part of the thrill of rape is taking by force what they otherwise could not get, and asserting that THEY are in control.

Also, we are very, very lucky to live in a time where military planners don't use mass rape as a psychological weapon against their foes. For almost all of human history, that was the case, all across the world.

Rape is the ultimate mind-fuck because it makes the person who is raped essentially an object, and not a person. It takes that which should be enjoyable and makes it horrific. It dehumanizes them.

>>49267591

The players won't care, because they're going to kill that motherfucker anyway. They won't give a shit, he's going to die on the end of their swords.

The only time they're go "Hey, maybe she has a point" is when the villain is a cute girl and maybe they'll get to dick her in the bargain.

Me, I give the villains motivations that are reasonable, but are warped and vile. This guy tortures and summons demons for his country. This guy wants ultimate power because his reign deserves to last a thousand years. This guy is a mass-murder because he genuinely believes the untermensch don't deserve to live, and are (From his point of view) not really 'real'.

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>>49274854
>I mean, if I raped your mom she could get better.
I didn't knew your dick could cure cancer, faggot.

>>49267760
Vader had, in fact, no legs to stand on.

>>49270685
this, bumping for this. that sounds great.

>>49267591
I make them a mod on /tg/

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>>49267591
I use pretzels, OP

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>>49267973
JUST WALK AWAY.

>>49274429
>bring balance to the force, because the Jedi were too strong
As much as it comes across like this the actual intention was never "there are too many Jedi". Lucas intended 'balance to the force' meaning kill all the Sith. The films were just shitty at getting that across.

>>49267591
Give them a reason. For instance, I made a Goblin Chief who used to be just a dumb follower, but after being abused by Humans, Got his crap together and gathered a goblin army. He's still evil, but He wishes to turn the normally lazy and weak goblina into an organized nation, not for his own greed, but so that they can stand up on their own.

>>49276888
American here, we probably should nuke Houston.
>>49274429
>Keep in mind that Anakin was supposed to bring balance to the force, because the Jedi were too strong

This is pure fanon and 100% wrong. The Darkside is not the ying to the light sides yang. It was, is, and was always intended to be a corruptive and imbalancing effect and influence on the force at large. The 'imbalance' to the force referred to is the damage to the force - the essence of the universe itself - done by the Sith during the last great war. The Sith basically damaged creation itself with their sorcery. THIS was what Anakin was supposed to fix.

>>49272665
>>49272602
>>49272581
>>49272573
>>49272508
>>49272477
Anakins fall to the dark side makes a lot more sense if you watch The Clone War's cartoon - which while often saccarine and childish as you would expect a Lucas Arts cartoon to be - did a very good job of showing Anakins slide to the dark side and his growing reliance on violence and his propensity for irrational anger in a way that is much more nuanced and effective than what is shown in the movies.

>>49276888
I agree that the situation isn't exactly the same, but Alderaan has a ruling family that is actively supporting the rebellion, if not part of it (Bail and Leia Organa) and seems to have lended troops, or at least gear, to it (since the soldiers on the Tantive IV and the rebel troopers have the same uniforms).
So I think it would be more like "Texan is trying to secede from the US and is founding and providing technical advisors to mexican terrorists, federal government nukes Houston".

>>49277613
A better comparison than Texas would be Saudi Arabia, which is funding and helping Daesh

>>49267591
Sauce of Comic?

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>>49267591
Dehumanize the heroes.

>>49277624
I think Alderaan is part of the Empire.

>>49277565

The dark side of the force works better if you think of it as an twisted excess rather than some "9 alignment thing".

The dark side is what you get when you twist the force according to your desires. You turn it into your tool and stop it from flowing naturally.

Anakin started to twist the force to enable his passion and frustration. Palpatine twisted the force because he was greedy and ambitious. A true jedi lives in oneness with the force and demands nothing from it.

>>49267591
Actually, One Villain Idea I had had him slowly and steadily become dehumanized. He started out in the first installment as a man who hated the way Humanity was, and wanted a perfect society... through kinda brainwashing methods. But, after 12 other Installments, he's slowly degenerated into a Humanity-Hating being, having mutated himself physically and trying to do so mentally. He, at this point, denies that he was ever Human.

>>49274025
Motti just didn't believe the hype because, by the time he got to his position, all the Jedi were dead and gone, and he had never seen anything to prove such a thing existed.

He was wrong, of course.

>>49272632
>2) He can still be villainous even if he has an admirable goal. Nothing stops him from being an asshole. He doesn't even try to achieve his goal peacefully. He only cares about his own. He doesn't care about people his braves slaughter, they're just pigs to him deserving nothing more.

This is what I was going for with my post, I don't get why the other anon was shutting me down so hard.

The main driving force for conflict in the world is a failure/unwillingness to communicate over conflicting goals, it's when compromise is simply impossible or (far more likely) never even seriously considered in the first place. The video-game NieR is an excellent example of this.

Humanized villains are overrated as fuck.

>>49278075
Nothing is overrated, it's all in the execution. Anything can be amazing and enjoyable if executed correctly. Humanized villains or absolute bastard villains can both work fantastically or terribly, depending on how they're written and acted.

>>49274854
Shit, nigga. You should know Sengoku Rance is a work of fiction.

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>>49274494

In stories, murder is easy to handle. Blam! Someone is turned into meat. Clean, efficient. Not much fallout.

Rape though? Rape has too many fucking consequences. Trauma, relationship consequences, social consequences, pregnancies, inappropriate fetishism, etc.

That's why its recommended to stay away from rape. Rape is a fucking mess to deal with. It doesn't mean that rape in fiction can't be done well though. Picture related has tons of rape, and it probably made it a better story as a result.

>>49267591
I try not to make my villains explicitly evil, rather differently minded. I hesitate to actually call them villains. There is a conflict, wherein both sides have a reasonable point of view on how it should be resolved. The players are exposed to both options and parties from an early point in the game, and are allowed the choice of the resolution. Those choices, however come with consequences.

Unless someone is the extra planar embodiment of unmitigated evil or straight mentally ill, there usually is a reason for their behavior

>>49278095

No, it's overrated. I've seen so many of the damn things and so many people talking about them it's like "goddamn there are other kinds of villains, guys"

>>49276990
This reminds me of the Dictatorship intalled by Porfirio Diaz on Mexico. During his regime, the country had a fuckload of advancements, but given his status as a dictator, and he used to silence his opposition, too.
He might've lifted the economy of the country in his time, but does that justify his actions in the end?
It's certainly interesting to let the players interact with cases like this. In the end, they'll probably kill the guy, but the journey is what counts.

>>49276941
how do you breathe

>>49278277
>Picture related has tons of rape, and it probably made it a better story as a result.

I don't know if it made the story better, but at least it did a good job of at least not fetishizing it. Whenever rape pops up it's deeply traumatic and has long term psychological consequences. Like how Guts couldn't stand to be touched and freaks out whenever there's any sort of intimacy at first.

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>>49277073

>>49267591
Make them outright evil but hella charismatic.
If it just comes off as being an annoying edgy antihero, all the better since now the party hates them harder, it's a win win situation for me.

>>49277662
What game is this?

>>49278339
Not really?

I mean you have

1. Villains with motivations for their actions.
2. Automatons that function from a script.
3. Elemental embodiments of evil.

Even the Emperor has a motivation- UNLIMITED POWER

Fucking Gargamel has a motivation- he hates Smurfs. Why? Can't remember.

>>49277592
So... literally Redcloak from OotS?

>>49267591
When someone finds that the one thing they want but can never have, lies just in reach beyond the forgivable, that is when they abandon their humanity.

>>49278339
So, in your subjective experience it's overrated. Good to know you don't have anything of value to contribute.

>>49279278
The Screamer

>>49278277
I knew a girl who was drugged and raped. She just went about her life and it didn't turn her into a ruined mess or anything.

Murdering a person's family member probably has a much bigger emotional impact.

>>49279618
>subjective experiences have nothing of value to contribute

I don't know where you are from but please go back.

>>49279413

>Not really?
>Lists 3 villains
>appears to think that of all the villains that exist throughout the history of the world and story-telling they will fall into one of these 3 little categories
>appears to think non-humanized villains have no motivation

>>49279667
>I met this one person this one time
>This other thing is probably worse based on my sample size of 1

Sound logic at work

>>49279716
Sample size of 1 is still better than the sample size of 0 you are working off of.

>>49279738

Dude, there's plenty of studies about the negative effects of sexual abuse.

>>49279704
To be fair, he lists 3 categories of villains. As in, broad delineations of how one might approach crafting a villain. If you think one of these categories is over represented in the medium, start churning out automatons and elemental manifestations.

I don't make designated villains. I make leaders of factions with their own goals as antagonists, and the party does pretty well choosing which faction to side with. Each and every one is human as they get.

>one possible antag is the king of the setting, asshole teenager kid just trying to keep his country from splitting apart
>another is the leader of a fanatic group that wants to usurp the kid and put who he believes is the 'true ruler' on the throne.
>another is the head of an inquisition against sorcerers. He's a friendly old grandpa until he hears of another sorcerer using his powers to exploit the innocent or accidentally burning down the section of a city
>the convict lord of a prison city that uses the power of necromancy to carve out a living in the wasteland they were exiled to
>ect

>>49279704
Ah okay you meant onscreen

Yeah that's fine. I wouldn't say that making your characters deeper is rarely a bad/overrated idea, if you can do it well.

Some settings and villains don't really work for it though. I'll use examples, two big tall faceless humanoid teleporting murder monsters that wear black.

Slenderman's whole thing was that he was subtle and inscruitable. You don't know what he really is or why he does things. If he ever got a "canon" backstory, or defined weaknesses, he'd lose a lot of his appeal as a character*.

The Tall Man (from the Chzo Mythos) is acually more intimidating as a character with a defined personality and backstory. He's a man (a druid) who was dragged off into an alternate dimension by a God of Pain. He serves as that god's representative in the "real world" after thousands of years of torture, and has well and truly broken into outright Stockholm Syndrome. He's just a dude that kills people, no big deal. He's actually kind of pathetic, really.

>>49280162
* NB Slenderman is living proof that overexposure kills your villains as easy as anything else. Especially if...

1. They're supposed to be mysterous.

2. They're halfway reasonable, because eventually you'd think they'd find ways to avoid being defeated by the heroes.

>>49279818
>"I knew a person who moved on from it, it's not as bad as dead family"
>Just a story, opinion discarded
>"Rape is very traumatic, there are stories that prove it!"
>Legitimate evidence
I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

>>49277612
>American here, we probably should nuke Houston.

Houstonian here, we don't give a shit what you think.

It's so weird how Houston has so many problems, yet is also strangely endearing. It just sucks you in, and you can't explain it.

>>49274161
Survivorship bias. Rape victims get to complain about their traumatic experiences and can be very vocal about it being a horrible unforgivable crime.
Murder victims don't and can't.

>>49277705

Yep. Leia was the Imperial Senator for Alderaan.

>but Alderaan has a ruling family that is actively supporting the rebellion,

Alledgedly. There really wasn't any proof, and they didn't lend troops (just intel) that would give them away directly. They were still definitely part of the empire.

He blew it up on a hunch, and to punish Leia.

>>49279667
>She just went about her life and it didn't turn her into a ruined mess or anything.

That you know of. Many people are just really, really good at keeping their emotions and problems to themselves.

You have no idea what she goes through.

Furthermore, that's not the norm for most rape cases. Rape does do damage to the person (that can be undone with time, but it's still pretty harsh) that lingers for long, long after they've experienced it.

>>49278438
Tiny holes in my thorax, like every other human being.

Unless you're criticizing what I said, in which case u just dumb

>>49280502
As a side effect of that, you're a lot more likely to trigger a rape survivor's PTSD (if it applies) than a murder victim's PTSD.
Plus I'm pretty sure that most people see murder done purely for shits and giggles as as bad as/worse than rape.


A villain that kills might be doing it to remove competition for the throne, to terrify his enemies, because it's fun, as punishment for breaking a law, as part of warfare, to execute "wrongdoers", to set an example for his subjects, etc.

A villain that rapes will probably be doing it because they get off on it. Maybe they'll be doing it to scare prisoners or subordinates into submission, "this could happen to you" style. Maybe they're doing it to sire a child?

The Night Angel trilogy discusses all of this pretty well, actually.

>>49280606
yeaaaahhh!

Spiracle Bros!

>>49280404
>studies
>the same as anecdotes
I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

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>>49277057
Well shut just suddenly got real.

Do you want me to remind you that remission can happen at any time, or have you gone through the whole back and forth and are now more exhausted by the fear of false hope than fatalistic acceptance of fatality?

But tell me, if my sick COULD cure cancer, would you prefer that I raped her instead of letting her die?

>>49276941
Other people can't steal your power. Only you can choose to give that away.

That's actually what they teach, by the way.

I mean really, that aspect of rape is just bullying. I could put you in the same powerless situation by holding you down and giving you a pink belly.

Buy you don't freak out about that because it doesn't violate social taboos.

You're an autistic nerd, getting held down and bullied is the default state for you.

Admit it, even though you don't like it the familiarity is comforting. You get to be the victim and have everyone reassure you of your worth, and you can blame all your failures on your bully. Because you aren't a sapient human that can decide how they feel and work on improving themselves and their lives.

>>49280589
> You have no idea what she goes through.

Back at you. So maybe you could just tell them that you're there if you need to talk, and not treat yhem like they're broken. Trust them to be the goddammit guardians of their emotions.

> Rape does do damage to the person (that can be undone with time, but it's still pretty harsh) that lingers for long, long after they've experienced it.

Might as well ducking kill yourself then.

Oh no wait that's still worse.

Maybe you should work on healing, rather than wallowing. Because nobody can fix your shit for you, so it ain't gonna happen until you actually start working on it.

Exposure therapy is how you treat PTSD. It's not like what they tell you on Tumblr where it can be triggered by a mean tweet.

Now, a mean tweet threatening to rape you is another story, but even that is a good confrontational experience.

A tweet threatening to rape you with your address is when you thank the Lord you live in a CCW state.

And shooting some edgy faggot can also be good for closure.

Anyways. People are really only predictable in groups. Individuals can and will react differently. So while you should investigate to see if your friend has trauma, if you don't find it that just means a) you're not a licensed psychiatrist, and b) there's the possibility they aren't traumatized.

>>49282971
>But tell me, if my sick COULD cure cancer, would you prefer that I raped her instead of letting her die?
I don't think it would be rape then. She might consent.

>>49279913

3 categories that seem to be pretty arbitrarily defined and that I have no idea why we should consider their vagueness to be remotely useful for identifying a villain

>>49282971
>You get to be the victim and have everyone reassure you of your worth

Yeah fucking great, thanks

Just give them a hobby. They don't need to be angsty fallen angels, they just need to have aome semblence of a personality outside of pure evil. Maybe the Lich likes to paint and his lair is filled with impressive works of art as he has become an amazing artist over his long, undead existence.

>>49279667
Nigger, one of my best friends had his father dying on a mexican standoff against a rival family when he was 8.Ironically, this happened in Mexico. He grew with little to no impact from that event and he's now a really productive farmer.
Do you think this means everyone can shrug off an experience of that sort?

>>49280162

...onscreen?

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>>49283351
>Ironically, this happened in Mexico.

>>49267591

I don't unless I want there to be a reasonable or at least plausible means for the PCs to convince the villain to stop their plans or change their ways.

It's not like "You have to kill this villain anyway, but you should feel really super bad about it" is a novel concept. At least "You didn't have to kill this villain, but you did anyway" gives a wider range of responses.

>>49267926
>>49272666
There's nothing wrong with playing it that way, but if you're seriously going to suggest that all or even most players are (or should be) indifferent to everything but loot and wacky hijinks, then fuck off.

>>49267591
give them all, and I mean all-- the mooks, the big bad, and everything in between-- some sort of physical item that solidifies the fact.
Give the raider a letter from his dying wife in his knapsack. Give the goblin a spear with his name carved into it. Something to solidify to the players that the goblin/dwarf/orc/whatever thinks and feels and acts.
At the same time, don't force this on them. Don't overdo it. In the raider example, just tell the players "In the knapsack, you find [insert treasure] and a piece of paper". For the goblin example, maybe say "He drops a spear with his name on it". Keep it simple

That's what I would do if I had any friends to play with, at least ;-;

>>49276741
I figured he cared about people in general but cared about his ego more. He wanted the Bajorans to see him as a benevolent leader and his Cardassian comrades to see him as a strong general. As person he knew what he was doing was fucked up but did it anyway because he didn't want to risk his position.
He conscience constantly pulls at him but rather than facing it he constructs a paradigm where he is a persecuted hero instead of an insecure man obsessed with glory.

Dukat is the sort of guy that doesn't know whether he wants to be loved or feared. He defaults to fear because it's easy and safe. When he does try to open up and get love he ends up being hurt because he's alienated anyone who could have loved him in the first place.


His villainy stems from an incredibly human form of internal conflict. He's definitely not righteous but he is sympathetic.

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>>49267591
See this guy OP? This guy's name is Ringo, and he is from Jojo. He has the ability to rewind time for six seconds whenever he wishes, with the only exception that he can't double down during a rewind. This means that he already always knows what you're going to try and pull, and is fighting you in the way that is the worst possible reaction for you. He is cheating, the whole damn time. Despite this, he is a favorite of the chapter he is in.

When he faces the main characters, he walks up to them and straight up explains what he can do. He even gives them a visual trigger of him rewinding his watch as both a mental switch for himself and a signal to his opponent. He explains he does this because it is within his 'morals as a man,' and not his 'obligations to society.' By all means he is supposed to finish them and move on, but it wouldn't feel 'right to him.' He decided there was something more important than the goal in his case, meaning his purpose in the manga could move beyond a thing to get by.

The worst bbeg out there is a boring one. If you're just making a big stupid babyfucking genocidal motherfucker, you players won't care. You just sound edgy. You just thought of the worst things you could, mashed them on a target without a reason, and set it loose for your equally dull players to grind down on. That's not a game. That's not even interesting. That's pressing numbers for the sake of self achievement.

A real foe challenges the audience by questioning their perspective. Ringo is the 'stronger man' before forcing his opponent to fully embrace the competition they are in. In a way, the main character has to find their resolve and decide on their morals because of this opponent. A murderhobo, most importantly, could never beat him because they lack the conviction to get him to challenge them seriously beforehand.

>>49282971
this reminded me of something
http://www.novelupdates.com/series/curing-incurable-disease-with-semen/

>>49279818
>studies about the negative effects of sexual abuse.
That didn't seem to be what you were discussing though, anon. It seemed like the other guy was trying to argue that rape is not as traumatic as the mass murder of your entire family.
Neither of you have proved that through statistics (stats showing rape makes people sad =/= stats showing rape is worse than the mass murder of a family).

>>49278277
Griffith did everything wrong.

>>49274161
>I never got why people put rape on the same pedestal as murder.
The fact that you referred to it as "putting it on a pedestal" makes me think I am wasting my time explaining this, but here it is:

If you crunch the numbers, murder is worse than rape.
But human beings don't work like that.
But I'll try to present it in a way that can be understood.

Murder causes death and possible suffering.
Rape causes suffering.
Both are considered undesirable.

Causing death can sometimes have enough desirable utility that it overcomes the undesirable qualities, in certain scenarios.
Causing suffering does not have such utility.

To put it another way, some people are considered so bad for society, that some feel they need to be killed, to the point that there is a system for it.
Whereas our society does not feet that a person needs to be raped to the point that there is a system for it.

Finally, adding killing and murder to a ttrpg can add intrigue, mystery, death, suffering, vengeance, a villain, resolution to conflict, or finality to a character.
Adding rape to a ttrpg just adds rape when any other form of suffering would do just as well.

>>49283351
Now to be fair. Every kid i've met who's lost someone to violence grew a spine and became a functioning adult. Thats around 40ish or so people. Only one ended up a drunkard and thats because his mother landed them in the street more than once after his dad died cause she couldn't handle life and the guys still 80 times more stable than the shit that passes for adults currently in college.

>>49272285
>Even in the original trilogy he was part of a Fascist, Xenophobic, Empire.

>bad

>>49283848
>>49268149
>>49276741
>Dukat was best antagonist.
This.

>Also he genuinely did care for the Bjorans.
I wanted to add that he also truly hated them for not loving him.
Dude's complex.

That episode with him and Sisko trapped on a planet was awesome.
My favorite part was that, despite the fact that Dukat's evil slowly boiled to the surface, throughout the episode, he acted far more honorable than Sisko.

>>49284701
>i gave you EVERYTHING i could possible give, even genocide, and you STILL don't love me?!

>>49284738
If you changed that to "limited genocide", that could be a direct quote.

Fun fact, ducks rape as a matter of course. They are literally evolved to rape each other.

If someone gets raped, just remember. That guy didn't have a barbed explosive spiral penis, and you don't have a vagina that is intended to not let that in.

So are you gonna blame them for raping eachother? Its a matter of survival for them, they don't even have a choice at this point.

>>49284891
Shit son, we all know that whatever we got going on, odds are it's not as bad duck rape.
Ain't nobody telling ducks nothing.
This here is /tg/, spiral barbed penises ain't nothing new to us.

>>49284891
And some insects have penises that bore into the female's carapace.

>>49284891
ducks aren't sapient, man. not like they have the capacity to choose.

>>49267591
Anyone got the rest of this? I like reading it.

>>49267591
The diabloic anti-paladin Tiefling who is leading the demoniac invasion over the lands of the local duke is doing it to break the seal binding his diabolic father under the lake.

A very long time ago the land was actually belonging to the archhdemon before a coallition of mortals kicked his ass and locked him up under a magic lake.

Tieffling BBEG is simply a prince looking to reclaim his crown and reunite with his father for demoniac shenanigans, using means that is "normal" for him but evil for the PCs (Sacrifices, corruption, manipulation.)

The PCs must stop the tieffling prince because their goal cannot coexist unless the PCs wants to join the demon realm who are bound to different rules.

Usually, I think a good conflict is where both heroes and villains are validated in their goal and could be interchangeable depending on your point of view on the conflict.

>>49274161
You can romantize murder, you could make a murderer have a valid reason to kill someone. Vengeances stories are full of romatized murderers and it's a pretty popular type of story.

Rape, on the other end, is needless cruelty. I don't think you could make a sympathetic "vengeful rapist" work outisde of hentai stories that are made for porn.

Rance is a good example. He's a rapist as its core but a heroic kind of guy. Except that he would be a complete sociopathic monster if you took him out of the "hentai logic."

>>49267760
One of my favorite humanizing moments for Vader was a comic set during the scene in empire on Bespin. He sees and recognizes 3po, who is currently in pieces and he has a flashback to building him on tatooine.

If you look at star wars as Anakins story, and there are reasons you should, then that scene summarizes his tragic arc perfectly

>>49285865
Its not even so much the hentai logic. Even taking that out, he is a nihilistic asshole. He knows for a fact that on death, people get tortured for the rest of eternity. At the same time, he's saved the world several times over.

Rance is a really bad example, because while he's a nihilistic rapist, he also lives in a world where you wind up tortured regardless.

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>>49267591
I write short stories to serve as interludes. A sort of 'meanwhile, elsewhere' type thing that shows the antagonists of the campaign doing things, like, say, having a meeting, or exploring a forgotten cave for a fragment of the ancient artifact of doom, complete with all the adventure banter that one would expect from a party of important individuals. A couple of them have literally just been two of the antagonists sitting on a bench, eating lunch, and shooting the shit.

Some of them are still absolute dicks, even in these interludes, but they stop being faceless/voiceless/characterised entirely by 1-2 lines of dialogue or a single villainous monologue, and they become dicks not because 'Well, they're evil and shout a lot' but because they actually act like massive cocks even outside of their interaction with the PCs. Some of them go the opposite way and the players end up not wanting to kill them, or at least pursuing a sort of 'Enemy Mine' or mutual respect thing.

But then, I tend to put a lot of work into humanizing the random mooks, as well. Several times, my players have lamented that they feel like massive dicks despite knowing that they did the right thing and having no regrets about it, just because of how the faceless goons had been acting and talking in the short description I gave before the battle started, and fragmented dialogue and actions taken during and in the immediate aftermath of that battle.

>>49267926
Another GM rendered into a salty lemon by poor players.

Some groups actually care about telling a collective story, not simply fulfilling blatant power fantasies.

>>49284371
If we're grinding it down to just strategic utility, rape has the same utility that literally any other form of torture has, but with the added bonus of maybe getting more human life out of it. If we're taking it into context as a whole, I'd like to point out that having a dick in your ass is preferable to having a bullet in your skull. Most people just don't take death as seriously as they should. I don't get why so many people act like it's the end-all-be-all of evil things.

>>49285985
Now that I think about it you're 100% right. Rance is a bad example because rape perpetrated by him is portrayed as "good" while rape perpetrated by other is always portrayed as super violent and evil.

My point still stands, however, on the fact that if murderers can be "excused" and showed under a positive or nuanced light, all depending on your point of view on the justification of the act. ( Count of Monte Cristo / your typical war-hero / Nier )
Rapist on the other hand don't have any heroic or sympatethic justification for their action. You can kill someone purely for self-defense, but a rape is always a purely aggressive action.

tl:dr : You can kill someone to protect or defend yourself and be justified. But rape is always an aggressive action with little sympathetic justification.

>>49286266
Rather than "Good" its portrayed as "meaningless". That even if he does rape every female, every single person, innocent or not, is gonna end up tortured for eternity.

Its hard to care about morality when the difference between the two is nil.

>>49279413
Gargamel just wanted to eat them.

>>49267591
By writing them as protagonists opposed by the party, or more realistically, the world.

>>49286594
Could've sworn it was to melt them down into gold

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>>49285929
Found said strip... damn those feels man...

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>>49279413
>Fucking Gargamel has a motivation- he hates Smurfs. Why? Can't remember.

>>49286594
>Gargamel just wanted to eat them.
>>49286628
>Could've sworn it was to melt them down into gold
It was both.
He was a poor, starving wizard and there is a spell that turns six smurfs into gold.

But you get defeated enough by little bastards three apples high, you start hating them just on general principle.

>>49286266
>>49286299
No.

The player is aware from the lore that souls get recycled after death and part of the recycling processing involves breaking down the personality through torture.
And that is because the after life features prominently in the game Toushin Toshi II which is in the same setting.

Rance himself does not and it doesn't factor in his thinking anyway.

Rance himself isn't shown as a heroic figure in the games.

>>49267591
Depends on who the villain is. In one of my settings, the God of Fire is attempting to take back what the God of Trickery stole from him at the beginning of time, because he's been cheated out of it for too long and he acts like a pissy toddler sometimes.The fact that doing so will result in human beings suddenly being unable to make fire in any way and collapse civilization is an unfortunate side effect, but not THAT unfortunate. He can just undo the super-enchantment that binds gods to mortal belief, right? Of course he can. /s

In another, there IS no real villain. The PCs are carting around a magical infinite power source on a collapsing world, and everyone's trying to get at it. Those in power want it, because of course the rulers should have it - they're the only ones who can look after it and distribute the power properly. The proletariat rebels want it for similar reasons. The mages want it because they believe they can use it to fuel their spell to halt the world's collapse - sure, it'll kill half the population, but it'll save the other half! There's also one dickhead collector with lots of money who's a surprisingly big nuisance, but he's the only real character who could be considered a villain, and he's mostly in there as a goldfish poop villain.

>>49286209
See my response in the Rape Thread: >>49287366
Never change /tg/.

On to more humanizing villains!

>>49287451
Or not.

>>49286209
>>49286209
>If we're grinding it down to just strategic utility, rape has the same utility that literally any other form of torture has, but with the added bonus of maybe getting more human life out of it.
Rape includes more than one nuance of torture, which is one reason it is more reviled than more tame torture methods.
Comparing the relative undesirability of various tortures versus rape is more difficult than that of rape versus murder.

>If we're taking it into context as a whole, I'd like to point out that having a dick in your ass is preferable to having a bullet in your skull.
The point of whether or not rape is better or worse than murder is not in question.
Only one offers the possibility of recovery.
The question is one of their relative undesirability, or abhorrence, to people in general, not necessarily to the victims.

>Most people just don't take death as seriously as they should.
I don’t know that that’s true in general.
In the context of a game, yes those playing a game might not be taking death as seriously as they could.
Should is a matter of opinion.

>I don't get why so many people act like it's the end-all-be-all of evil things.
Hyperbole aside, it has been explained once, I will try again.
To use your example of the victim’s perspective, most people would prefer a little torture to death, but would prefer death to inescapable decades of the worst torture imaginable.
So your position is that rape falls on the “better than death” side of this line.

Where you fail is limiting your perspective to putting yourself in the position of the victim.
Instead, regard the perpetrator from the perspective of other people.
A murderer seems to act to accomplish a goal, a death and any cruelty is secondary.
A rapist seems to act to make another being suffer and cruelty is inherent.
One could make arguments about the reality of cruelty, suffering, and death.
That doesn’t change how the acts are perceived.

>>49267973
You're still destroying the family's livelihood by seizing all of their property.

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>>49267591
>What do you do to humanize your villains, /tg/?
Have them genuinely express interest and concern for the needs and well being of even the smallest underling in their empire, if not for those he needs to crush underfoot.

>>49287826
Well yeah, an evil person is still evil.

>>49274161
>one is vastly worse than the other
Consider, can you think of a good reason to kill? A case in which it is regrettable, perhaps, but still morally justified, where it is the lesser evil?
Now, come up with such a situation for rape.

>>49274564
The question, then, is why.

>>49276777
I dunno, dude. If I was all set to rape somebody, I would be pretty put out if it turned out she wanted to fuck me all along. I wouldn't say no, but I'd probably still try to do it in a way she didn't want.

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>>49277073

>>49278422
I have a relative named after him. There's definitely people who think he did well.

>>49267591
Depends on the villain.

Some are just people born into a cycle they can't get out of, and just live with it.

Some did something foolish and spend their entire lives trying to make up for it.

Others just do what the PC's did last session.

Its all about view point.

>>49268647
Really? He struck me as burnt. Someone who was planning on toppling the emp in 5 and realizes hes evil in 6 after endorsing torture and slaughtering more of his own men then luke did.

Its only when the PT came out did it really make sense, that ultimately Vader was a man who got screwed out of litterally everything by his master, is aware of this, and kills the troopers he's with because he hates the fact he's in a position where he can do that. He cant rebel he succesfully ruined every relationship he had.
He can only hate and kill his troops for being the disgusting murderers he also is.

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Sheng-ji Yang from SMAC also makes a great villain.
>claims to be an incorruptible and infallible philosopher king and ubermensch
>actually is one
>complete control of his emotions and neuro sensory input and output without augmentation or genetic tempering
>complete mastery over human behavioral psychology and the human condition
>capable of meticulously crafting and implementing policies and doctrines at every stratified layer of his tightly control police state without inefficiency or flaw
>so fucking nihilist to the point of being a inhumane and amoral monster
>end justifies the means; guiding humanity to enlightenment through a ascetic virtuous existence.

>>49277624
And did 9/11.

>>49288229
Last few people on earth and the Eve faction refuses to put out under the idea humanity is better off dead.

>>49288770
You see? The premise is terribly contrived and yet even with such contrivance, it is still questionable.

>>49288785
How so? Humanity deserves a chance and selfish ideology is preventing it.

How about corporal punishment then? Effective if messy and it could just be one of many such acts in the repertoire. Only times it's questionable is in societies that have chosen less effective forms of punishment for merely being less immediately harmful even if temporary.

>>49288954
>deserves
This word is meaningless.

>corporal punishment
>effective
Not according to the research. Torture's not either, in case you hadn't heard.

>>49288229
"rape this girl or I'll torture her to death"

>>49289142
You see, contrived as fuck and a questionable lesser evil. A situation where the rape isn't actually good, and your best bet is to pretend at rape until an opportunity arises to murder the torturer.

>>49279667
2 of my friends were raped, and I can assure you, it does have consequences. Both became massive slits because they lost all valie of themselves, and sadly, both have adopted the standard thought process of "it was my fault" when it very clearlt wasn't. They're both a school case of rape, done by the boyfriend, in an intimate and private place, thinking it's their fault, and having never reported it to the cops.

So yeah, rape does mess up people.

>>49289591
Wait. So it was just school sex they regret? That's normal puberty shit. Same for the self-worth shit though they should eventually mature past that.

I don't.
Nor do I "Dehumanize" them.

Players have to come to their own conclusions about important local figures and decide how they feel about their actions and motivations; which usually at least follow some basic mode of logic.

I don't do designated villains; I do opposed interests.

>>49267624
See, this is fine; but I'd give my players the option to rip the kingdom apart at the head of the marauding barbarian horde too.

>>49289671
Nope, it was litteraly their boyfriend putting their hands on their mouth so they couldn't scream, undressing them and forcefully having sex with them when they didn't because they were not ready. One was still a vrigin. If that's not rape anon, I don't know what it is.

>>49289698
Well that in fact is.
I just hate the idea that i even heard people call normal shit like sex in highschool as a result of both parties being full of hormones something even akin to rape before. Guess i just have a kneejerk reaction to that sort of thing.

>>49289755
Oh yeah no, those two friends definitely did not have sex willingly then regret it. As I said, they were both the classical rape case, which is even more sad. At this point they became a statistic, but one that is not even actually accounted for, since they never reported, which, again, falls in the general case of rape, si ce the vast majority of rapes aren't reported.

>>49277662
ranch or cool ranch

>>49276739
Until they unite in prison and plan to kill the kid fiddler. Happens more often then you think.

>>49291020
ranch?

>>49288390
He literally tries to woo Luke to the dark side by saying they'd bring order to the galaxy.

He didn't promise him power or pleasure, but order.
>>49272285
The empire was never shown to be xenophobic in the OT, but regardless it doesn't really matter because I never said he was right, only that he thought he was.

Or at least still thought he could make things right.

>>49291642
They were vaguely xenophobic via visuals.
Almost entirely white and 100% human male only.
Rebels had aliens and women and depended on an almost entirely alien spy network.
>>49291245
>until
They make special wings now just for them because it became an unspoken rule that the second they found out who was the diddler they'd rape and beat the guy to death, the guards usually told prisoners who was a kid molester then uniformly turned a blind eye to the happenings of his cell for that day.
Now they get the super max treatment more or less to avoid "uneeded" deaths.

>>49274518
All pedophiles should be burned alive

>>49267973
Hello, Ultramarine. Burned any other cities recently?

>>49292473
All cities were coincidentally on fire upon arrival and you have zero credible evidence to the contrary.

>>49275514
youre literally retarded

>>49280495
ex-houstonian here, after much trial and error, im pretty certain its the food

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>>49267591
I like to hide the fact that they're villains by either having them interact with the party as friendly NPCs or have the party set them on the course of villainy by just letting PCs be PCs.

>>49272602
>Movieblob.

Nope.

>>49275514
We're not going to start an atomic bomb discussion on 9/11, are we?

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>>49277515
Lord Humungus was a villain done right.

>>49288420
Yang is one of the most monstrous men in fiction.

>>49289591
Seems like your spelling ability was raped too.

>>49267591
>What do you do to humanize your villains, /tg/?
Let his child slaves shower afterwards.

>>49293249
Sure why not? It's what, 15 years now? Thats plenty long enough for it to not effect talks on essentially unrealated things by 12 years if not more.

>>49293418
It seems like a day where you'd want to avoid discussions of real-world violence, but I guess that's just me.

>>49293438
If we're going to suspend discussion every time someone kills someone else, we might as well just turn off the internet entirely.

>>49293524
Or stop trolling everytime a kid is bullied at school.

>>49293438
>>>/tumblr/

>>49267591
By making them human.