In a world where magic had always existed modern crops would not.

>>49231294
Why?

No, seriously, why would magic prevent people from trying to grow better, tastier, more nutritious crops?

Does ever single town have a Cornicopia or something?

Do you actually play games with these worlds? With real human players?

Historical speculation is well and good, but I can't quite picture a narrative that would hold anyone's attention. Like, at all.

If you haven't noticed, in most settings, magic fails to filter down to the ranks of commoners, which is why farms are very much still a common location in spite of the prevelance of enchanted weapons. If anything, to keep competitive with magical sources, selective breeding would be accelerated in order to keep the edge against wizard food, which explains why you find modernish crops seemingly anachronistically inserted into many settings; they showed up hundreds of years early because if they didn't, farmers would be replaced by clerical foods and their industry would shift from training more farmers to training clerics.

Gods of harvest would also be really, really miffed to see such a thing happen, as well.

>>49231294
Most non-weeaboo fantasy settings are low-magic, where magic is rare and unique, not a commodified industry

>>49231463
Absolutely, but if you have maggical means to produce more, you're not going to follow the same path we have followed.

Taking an extreme example - the cavendish banana.

They were selected for because of their flavor, situational disease resistance (michel gros had been the banana of choice but were nearly wiped out by a plague about 100 years ago) they are durable enough to ship and have a decent shelf life.

if you were selecting for bananas in a world where you have even basic magic you can make smaller bananas larger (enlarge, simple second level spell)

You can dispel disease using priest spells which nearly every village will have access to, yield increase will be something priests will also be asking their gods for on the annual

So the bananas that are at the market (probably not bananas, but since we're all familiar with them)

1. will definitely be more varied
2. will probably be more primitive

especially if there are spells that can assist in harvest.

In most D&D style games we're still in a principally agricultural world (in spite of the typically constant wars that grip them) so industrial harvesting isn't a thing (even wheat from the 1500's is VERY different from modern wheat, or corn from the 1800's is very different from modern corn because it needed to be made easier to mechanically harvest)

All of these factors would impact the commodities available in a given community, and if you have a high magic setting, the ability of your wizard to intimidate with a cantrip isn't predicated on whether or not a wizard could intimidate an ignorant peasant in 1300's england.

it's whether or not one of these farmers, who has been hitting up the priest for VERY real magical blessings every year is "scared" of your magic.

This might require a player to take a different approach to intimidation (A dispel magic might be more frightening than any number of other threats)

>>49231490
As far as this - It's background, if my wants to buy wheat, sure he can buy wheat, but when we as DM's\GM's think about pricing/how markets work/how our farmers think within our settings we need to be aware of the world they live in.

These worlds have history, and frequently they are written without any of that history (it's just ye olde europe with some kind of thin veneer of social nicety keeping people from taking advantage of magic to be real dicks to one another, but no bones of the magic that is dripping from the walls of dungeons everywhere)

>>49231544
Do you think nobles would act like shitty modern "I don't eat gluten or GMO death-hazard food, I only eat locally grown kale and quinoa." fuckfaces about magic food?

"Wizard food contains more gluten. I can't feed my children -that-." Of course they're entirely wrong, just like in reality.

>>49231544
Why on earth would they take the EXACT same path?

>>49231294
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/3rd-party-spells/frog-god-games/blessed-harvest

>>49231804
nice

Have you tried not playing D&D?

>>49231784

The point that we're both seemingly making here is that they didn't; the crops available in most fantasy settings differ from the rough time periods they correspond to exactly due to the differences in circumstance.

>>49231294
In a setting where ancient wizards/gods create chimeras like owl-bears they would probably also create weird mystical plant hybrids. Trees whose fruit has the consistency and nutritional value of meat. Dire berry bushes which produce gigantic, nutritious, and intensely flavorful berries. Pitcher plants which grow actual pitchers with the natural elemental power to produce large volumes of pure water.

And then there's the fire-breathing dragon vines grown to protect mystical fortresses, whose grapes make the best wine in the world.

>>49231929
I have, I have not found other systems that handle this better.

>>49231294
>>49231886
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/harvest-season

>You cause an explosive burst of growth in a single plant, causing it to grow through a cycle of flower, fruit, or grain production as appropriate. If the plant is not one that normally produces food fit for humanoid consumption, it produces edible flowers under the effect of this spell.

>edible flowers

You are now aware that in d20 settings dogwood blossom salads are a thing.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/goodberry
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/major-hexes/hex-major-witchs-bounty-su

> Each transmuted berry provides nourishment as if it were a normal meal for a Medium creature.

You are now aware that in d20 settings druids, shamans, and witches can make multivitamins.

>>49231294
Or they could all look the same cause humans are lazy bastards and they would all use the same spells.

>>49232253
we don't have spells here on earth prime.

>>49232253
They won't all look the same. People will independently figure out different versions of the same spell and then they will never change over to even a strictly better version because their version is a tradition.

>>49232253
Not necessarily. Whoever is intervening in the evolution of the crop would have a particular favorite aspect about it.

They could be growing the plant so that it produces the most fruit, bigger fruit, more resilient fruit, more nutrient dense fruit, more flavorful fruit, etc. Then you could have some tumblr wizard who is only interested in changing the color of the skin of the fruit or some stupid shit that doesn't make it a more efficient harvest but makes his particular brand special.

None of those modifications are better than the other, it depends on the circumstances.

>>49231991
>Dire berries
>Dragon Vine Wine
>>Pitcher-pitching pitcher plants

Totally stealing this.

>>49231294
GURPS has an entire college of magic dedicated to food, another to plants, and another to weather. If you're going to look into GURPS for worldbuilding in a fantasy world, make sure you grab GURPS Fantasy and GURPS Magic. Both pdf's can be found in the GURPS general thread.

>>49231700
>dropping a second level spell on every banana
Fucking expensive, and still not permanent

Disease removal us a good point, but it's availability depends on the setting.

We probably wouldn't have quite the same selection of crops, but they would likely be pretty similar overall since people are still going to try to grow bigger, tastier stuff.

>>49232420
Reminds me of Zork Grand Inquisitor.
If you cast a grow spell on a literally snapping Snap Dragon, it resists the spell and then your guide informs you that it you probably didn't want it to work.

>>49231294
This would imply either:
>Everyone is a mage
>At least half the population are mages
>Mages are ridiculously powerful
Commoner piss poor NPCs need to eat and would develop normally even if there's a couple wacky hobos that can turn peanuts into coconuts.

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if you were a mage, priest or god of any reknown, why would you waste time buffing food when you can just hit people with magic directly

There's things like the golden apples in myth, but beyond that it's simply not very interesting to talk about blessed crops.

>>49233261

If you were a god of reknown, why would you care about mortals at all when the universe is your oyster? Because eventually, the mundane becomes interesting when filtered through an unlimited length of time.

>>49231294
When was the magic discovered?

When was it possible to actually utlilize magic to suplement the low capability of pre-domestication crops?

Were the humans given knowledge of magic by Gods, or had to spend time figuring it out themselves?

And if so, what would stop the gods from just putting domesticated crops in their hands?

IIRC crops were domesticated before writing was a thing, or were well in the way. Were cavemen able to use magic to just grow more stuff? did they had a guy they pestered every weet to make food for them? Or was magic so common and developed they could do it themselves?

>>49232134
GURPS: Fantasy has a sizable section on how magic would interact with various parts of societies, including agricultural sectors, because of course it does.

>>49233850
Yeah but GURPS has "sizeable sections" on literally everything.

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>>49232198
>dogwood blossom salads
I hope they taste as good as they smell.

>>49233430
In each of those possibilities you will have a different type of crop as an outcome.

>>49231991
Got alchemical botanists in the setting I'm running right now. Totally stealing these ideas.

>>49231294
Elves and Hobbits cultivating stuff.

Now shut up and roll your dice

>>49231294
Can't help you with a system (I don't even think this aspect of the world would mean spells accessible to characters), but perhaps you would prefer to discuss this at alternatehistory.com.

This would count as ASB timelines, but people would still be interested, specially if you're throughout enough about it.

The timelines where people develop agricultural packages for people like inuits are amazing in this regard.

Whoa, wait, Hold the phone!

If this is a D&D setting or a Pathfinder based Setting I have to stop you. I literally wrote out a report to my GM once. I was tring to amass as much wealth as possible in a game and He allowed me to attain Land, holdings and start a Legit Trade Company. That system within the information given in their official books doesn't work. You literally can't make a realistic functioning Company or for that matter a real functioning economy.

The way these books , D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder, worked the only viable economy even for a nation would be appealing to adventurers due to the terrible lay out and lack of economical oversight. /tg/ did at that time actually have several .pdfs where the economy was broken down by a bunch of people. frank was what one of them was called. Sorry I can't remember the other one.

I realize you mean to point out about Crops and Agriculture so I Deleted my post to edit it. It would apply there too however. I village could sell a single magic weapon and feed the village. Taking common sense and food has to come from somewhere and making a deal with wizards/clerics would be trivial. Depending on the System a very simple ritual could make the food of one very small harvest Far larger than even Modern Agriculture could hope to attain in the forseeable future.

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You telling me I have to give up corn to get magic?

Can you just take my sanity or something?

>>49234029
Source?

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>>49231294
okay, you have a neat little point there - we've certainly had a hand in how massively many plants have changed over the years, and magic would definitely change that.

now go and create at least one 'alternative reality' crop for each and every type of plant we've affected the evolution of throughout our history, and then a few more since naturally we'll have made modern-level foods out of things we wouldn't have without magic.
and then try to figure out how those will be used in cooking
i'll see you in about a year - during that time i'll actually be playing a game instead of spending all of it writing about alternate universe corn.

the thing is that you're fussing over very small details that will very rarely change how the game is actually played - even on a roleplay level. most players really don't give a fuck about this kind of stuff, and most DMs are content to put fucking potatoes in a medieval europe setting - and i don't blame them.

of course, if you manage to actually write some 'realistic' alternate-universe foods that make sense and aren't some retarded 'gasmorpolorp'-tier attempt, then maybe some people will actually use them in their setting? hell, maybe i even would.
.. or not, maybe they'll just stick to corn and potatoes because it won't take a three minutes to explain to the players what those are every time they get mentioned.

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>>49231294
>having real world plants in your fantasy setting

Fufufu, I seriously hope you're more creative than that.

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Holy fuck the autism. Filling books with arguments about minimal changes to crops! Who cares if the lettuce in your fantasy world is smaller or your bananas more curved and less sweet because you chose a different type to start with? No player I've ever met will argue with you about the price of a crop farmed with magical assistance. If your worldbuilding goes that much onto detail about how every crop is a little bit different and how and when magic is involved in every agricultural process, you're wasting your time with informations of your setting the players will never need nor want.

I guess you have fun with that so I'm not telling you to stop, just realise it's pointless for the fun of your game and doesn't add any real deepness to your setting.
i'm no native english speaker sorry for any BS grammar n stuff

>>49237238
Only things I saw wrong were

>deepness
Should be 'depth'

and
>informations
Should be 'information'

Source: I, your humble servant, am a most loyal subject of Her Royal Britannic Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

OP there is a general that pops up often called Worldbuilder General. They have links to the Information that may interest you and can help with this.

>tfw you never payed your party with 3x the estimated Dungeon loot from the goods list only for them to sigh and give it back bitching about how they did the quest for free.

Joking aside my group and I actually pay attention to this stuff. We've listened to the things the GM said about the setting many a time and capitalized on it alot. Selling rations to hungery and armies, Buying rare goods to sale in other places, Old worthless pottery to scholars, heirlooms, salt, you name it. The most expensive thing they left with once was worth in the books several silver but in fact was worth more than everything else except a single book.

It's the things like that that make a setting feel alive. When you make it through 20 levels of death incarnate to see nothing but a book in a skeleton hand and open see the name of a man who destroyed the world and know it was worth it.

Why would a bunch of poor dirt farming peasants who can't afford one sword in the whole village have the gold to actually fund adventurers? Pay them in Wheat and Ale. let them sale it in the neighboring Towns on their way to find more exciting shit to do. Otherwise it feels more like filling off a check list.

>not using bellgrapes, diceberry, mangolephants, loquat-shoes, pear'o'heels, squalphins, citrisquid, springananas, peach puppies, apricats, applesocks, whalamatos, pineoclocks, fishy fruits, boarmelon, rhinoloupe, orcalplant, garlicrown, honey onions, sweat moais, spiny carrots, conchurnips, cornflowers, cabbadillos, needlettuce, cherry bombs, masked potatos, lilipods, rocket papaya, orangeopuses, bumpkins, heart mints, spade basils, dialurels, gold clovers, mush-in-a-box, and toadstoolsheds instead of regular vegetables and fruits

>>49231991
Nice worldbuilding there, mind if I steal it.

>>49238224
Go nuts, just don't try to copyright it. I might try and incorporate some of it into a video game I working on.

>>49231294

Do your players give a fuck?

>>49238432
>implying he has any players
>implying this autist has ever played a game

>>49231700
Not every setting is dnd

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>>49231544
>If you haven't noticed, in most settings, magic fails to filter down to the ranks of commoners
I'd wish there were more settings where magic is readily available to even the lowliest peasant, to do most of the things we do for science, such that the entire civilization is magically dependant.

Harry Potter comes to mind, are there any other settings like that?

>>49238244
Fair enough.

>>49238471

Harry Potter is a good example of wizards telling the masses to go fuck themselves, even when said muggles devise an alternative which eventually threatens global annihilation on the process.

>>49231294
Uh that would seriously depend on what magic is like, what exactly it is capable of and how easy to use. DnD settings would definitely have modern crops because before those developed people wouldn't have the free time to spend learning to use magic with out starving.

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>>49238471
Glorantha, man.

It's like high-magic sword and sorcery in a bronze age setting.

People use folk-magic and rituals for basically everything from improving harvest yields to detecting trespassers and guiding their arrows into the hearts of their hated enemies.

There are more powerful kinds of magic too, but most everybody has a little.

>>49238599
Speaking of Harry Potter, anyone remember that one background character who was stirring his drink without a wand while reading something by Carl Sagan?

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>>49238692
You mean the best wizard in the whole damn movie series, the Science Wizard?

>>49238759
That's the one.

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Agriculture thread?

>>49238692
Stephen Hawking, but I'm being pedantic

>>49231294
I haven't read any further into the thread, but I'm really happy that this conversation now exists. Thank you.

>>49231700
Go watch Kurosawa boi

>>49231490
I once started a game with a kingdom of plenty having it's agricultural artifact being stolen. Didn't really focus on it too much, didn't go into any other detail, definitely didn't have any greater setting implications.

But you can work with things like that. Until the players decide the teleporting thief was way cooler than the prince, fuck princes get money.

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On the other hand, if gods exist and they created the world them it's very likely that those plants that had to be engineered by humans were created by some god in that exact form.
As you look on myths there's usually some golden era in which everything was better, including corn and bananas. Since it ended it's all going downhill and now people are weak and pathetic compared to the heroes of the old - and even wheat doesn't give as good crops.

>>49231700
Even ultra-high magic settings like Forgotten Realms and Golarion tend to not have that level of magic involved in everyday life of normal people.

>>49231294
>people can use magic to kill each other
>this is uncommon
>people no longer eat corn as a result of this
What?

>>49237178
A plant whose fruit/veggie/whatever piece that gets picked from the stalk is protein and carb rich super food...though in the tenth year of harvests after its first planted releases sentient anthrax spores that drive population centers inland.

>>49231294
>This thread is for anything agricultural that you've dealt with that's /tg/ related
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/16802724/

>>49231991
>Trees whose fruit has the consistency and nutritional value of meat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_Lamb_of_Tartary

>>49239266
>Conjure food is a spell
>Cornucopia's exist
>Priests are able to purify food

>"This in no way has any ramifications on hunter gatherer cultures"

Surely you must be joking sir.

>>49239237
Why not? That just seems like the writers are getting lay - because frankly with that much magic is there - honestly, a good reason why it wouldn't be filtering down to the common folk? Priests and clerics are supposed to be acting on behalf of their gods, who typically are fueled by more worshippers.

It's easier to keep your existing flock alive (barring war) than it is to seek MORE worshippers.

>>49238669
How early in - say greyhawk's prehistoric record do you think magic would have arisen?

>>49238442
Actually have a six player game with apparently a much more robust world than most of you.

I am not surprised when I see complaints on here about the difficulties of running a sandbox game, the creativity to do it simply isn't deep enough in this lot.

>>49231700
I didn't think autism levels like this were possible. You've clearly put a lot of thought into the socio-economic development of societies that make use of inexplicable magical powers that follow rules and are distributed in a manner that only makes "sense" in your head alone.

I would suggest you take a step back and realize that even in whatever setting you are imagining none of this actually matters because the setting is an excuse plot for super powered individuals to gallivant around the world fighting monsters.

>>49243442
I want to run a simulated society with as much ability to give the players sound storytelling as possible.

Part of why good writing is good is that the situations can truly happen, the mechanisms of the social interaction are genuine - even if the action is driven by supernatural means (frankenstein for example) the story speaks to deeper understanding of human nature, and the experience of the participants in the story.

I want to give my players the best story possible, and beyond writing good events, and story arcs - I want to be able to provide them an opportunity to explore their perspective on reality.

"Why is this the way it is" The day to day wonderment about how and why things are the way they are that people so frequently lose is an important piece of curiosity. We take things at face value so quickly and so readily - and to take a game, or setting that these players are going to dump years of their life, even if it's just a few hours a week into - and just do some light weight DM prep is not respectful to them.

In the last game I came into as a player, one of the other players hit our first time scan with an incredibly elaborate plan for a crime syndicate - if players can show up with that a GM should be able to create an open and clear world wherein their characters can function, and make it easy enough for them to look at the guts of it that they can take advantage of opportunities in that world in the most creative ways possible.

I want players to do cool shit, and the more detailed a world I can give them, the more elaborate, and the cooler that shit can be.

And maybe they can learn enough to bring some of those planning skills into the real world and get good jobs so we can retire to play D&D in our 40's because fuck it, that's the dream right? Nice carribean island playing D&D 4 hours a day before you go home to your hot wife, bang her then read and play vidya until you pass out from all the nice rum drinks?

>>49243777
No, no, you're making a classic mistake here.

You see, if you put any thought into your setting at all then you're an autist neckbeard who needs to get a life.

If you don't put effort in and just handwave everything then you're a stupid chad dudebro who are jerks that the ladies always go for instead of me.

The only correct action is to never make a setting at all.

>>49243314
Depends on the prevalence of magic and at what point in human history you think druids would be replaced by clerics as the religious gobetweens, and when certain spells are developed.

I mean, you're right, the impacts would likely be pretty massive, but their exact extent is entirely dependent on the setting.

>>49231294
>I have not seen a system that integrates these lower level more mundane magics.
>If someone would like to point me to such a system I would be appreciative
Ryuutama, bro.

I actually don't remember if it has these specific spells, but you'll probably like it a lot anyway.

>>49231294
Who says wizards aren't interested in breeding exciting, tasty new crops?

What's the point of having magic if you can't use it for life's simple pleasures?

>>49243777
How long have you been running games? I could go into a long winded explanation of why your fantasy about medieval corn is stupid but it wouldn't do anything to convince you and I remain confident that what is really going to change your tune is when not one single person in your game even notices the varieties of shrimpy looking corn on sale in your markets.

You want to add flavor to your game that probably won't but just might add a bit of flavor to your world? Fill it with an interesting and vibrant history of believable and compelling peoples doing things that make sense. Again, odds are that the political infighting of a foreign dynasty will affect your game are basically zilch, but it's more relevant than fucking corn.

You are not an autist because you have attention to detail. You're an autist because you lavish attention on things that don't matter and are almost certainly neglecting the details that do matter because of it.

>>49244046
Wizard crops would be more in the owlbear mode. Weird hybrid Things That Should Not Be.

...so like most modern cultivars then.

>>49244265
No, I'm quite certain you're wrong - there are quite a few political factions functioning, several parallel adventuring parties of assorted alignments and ages, many characters of various motivations all interacting above and beyond their direct horizon.

"corn" (Which would only exist in places with north american base cultivars anyway) matters because it impacts the kinds of liquor available, it it a higher water crop than, wheat for example, it is less drought resistant than many other crops and so if the weather cycle in region x is impacted by large scale castings by a BBEG then these villages are going to be forced to change crops, or are going to have to deal with famine, which will lead to questing in said region.

Just because you can't keep a complex simulation going doesn't mean I can't.

There is court intrigue, there are NPC's with grudges, interpersonal relationships, and hidden motivations, spies, and wars.

These things matter because by having the information available to your players you allow them to play a game with more options. If someone wants to adventure - absolutely they can do that. If they want to take over an agricultural corporate empire to fund other adventurers why shouldn't they be able to do that?

OD&D was born from a large scale war simulator which worked okay for large battles but was abysmal for logistics involved in larger wars, in mid level campaigns in which I've participated large combat operations are frequently glossed over simply because the information doesn't exist, and so handwavium comes into play.

I don't want to be that DM.

I do recognize perfect simulation is not possible, and that some handwaving is necessary, but if I can achieve a more complete simulation by considering individual variables, building house rules and accessory spells out of systems that are better prepared for these aspects of the game, maybe I can build a game for my players where they can legitimately do whatever they want.

>>49244046
Why would you settle for flavorless tomatoes, corn with a cob, or dwarf wheat?

>>49244500
>dwarf wheat

Sturdy, bearded and somehow able to survive without sunlight. The backbone of the underdark brewing industry.

>>49244773
Try Norman Borlaug.

>>49231294
Have you tried anything that isn't DnD?

>>49244841
What would you suggest in particular?

>>49231544
What kind of "magical" sources are we talking about? And why can't enchanted items include mundane items for the peasantry?

Like, you don't have to have a dragon or an auroch outside to plow your field, but why not an enchanted plow? Why do wizards always enchant swords?

>>49245405
Speaking of - why do wizards enchant swords at all? Enchanted swords do much more wizard killing than wizard protecting.

>>49245467
To arm your witless pawns against your rival wizards. Why does this even need explaining?

>>49246127
Because wizards have high INT scores, and typically decent WIS scores - they should see the writing on the wall, and know that magical daggers in the hands of an assassin would be far more efficient than a magical sword in the hands of some mercenary.

plus many systems include a cost (Typically a high one) with enchanting items.

>>49243411
Nah bruh. No one wants your combo thesaurus/atlas/codex of a sandbox, when it's as wide as an ocean and as deep as a puddle.

>>49231294
>Obviously some gods are going to be poking at this shit
If you're talking about DnD, Pathfinder, Exalted, and magic that originates from THOSE stuff - the gods you speak of are literally going to be the Illuminati who managed to jew their way into writing all the rules and regulations for everyone else to follow in