What's the best first founding Chapter?

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>not whitescars

Get fucked vamp cunts got nothing on my speed.

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>>49198456
Blood Angels
>beautiful talented artist
>but still can flip out and go crazy
>armor with abs
>special tanks nobody else has
White Scars
>goez fast hurr

>>49198505

Blood angels
>Edgey because papa died when he should have killed horus
>Genetically flawed
>Literally mutants
>Doing art instead of fighting and hunting
>useless nipple armor

You're better than the ultras I'll give ya that and they fought at terra but bro... you're shit.

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>>49198575
As opposed to the White Scars who did nothing during the heresy, and don't have any special armor because nobody cares about the White Scars

>>49198640

>Ullanor
>Chondax
>Terra
>many other victories

Yeah nothing mutant scum. Also better to be practical than to show off for no reason.

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at least you guys didn't say space wolves

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>>49198575

The Black Rage isn't really edgy, it's basically post traumatic stress disorder.

>>49198805

Anon I'm just giving him shit

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>>49198395
>Blood Angels
>Bunch of mutant fucks

Nah, Space Wolves are the best

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>>49198996
Best at looking dumb and being an army for gross people, I guess

>>49198996

>still mutant fucks

Nah cunt.

>>49198996
t. Pleb

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>>49199056
>hating on Spess Wolverine

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Original hawtness entering the fray

ImpFists da best
>good luck I'm behind 500 walls and turrets

>>49199150
>Dead chapter
>The best
kek

>>49199056
>>49199057
>>49199094
Fuck off Magnus, you fucking samefag

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>>49199171
stay mad pleb

>>49199182

He's a wolf fucker brother he'll always be a mad plebeian.

>>49199150

>Rogal "I'll fill the iron cage with yellow bodies" Dorn

A fucking idiot more like.

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>>49199182
:hf:

>>49199182
Nice warp faggotry NEEEEEERRRRRDDDDDDD

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>>49199129
that's a Legion, not a Chapter. Maybe turn the volume down on your soul-murdering music and ease off the cocaine and you'll be able to read better

Pre heresy Death Guard are the best and it's not close

>>49199293
not a Chapter.

Goddamn, you Chaos dudes can't read for shit. No wonder you believed anything the Word Bearers said, they're probably the only literate ones.

>>49198505
White Scars are great poets and have a unique psyker art. They were second only to the Thousand Sons at that.

In fact they were really heavy supporters of using more psykers, but the Khan was worried it would have really bad effects on his Legion if he personally came out and supported it, so had others in his legion do it instead.

They are more than just speed freaks, anon.

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>>49199262
fiiiiiiiiiiine, its not like every original legion broke into like 20 different groups any

it's still not bloodangels though bloodbutt

Yay Iron Hands

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>>49198395
No it's the Dark Angels you blood sucking bottom feeder.

>>49199056
Why is this so true.
I have never met a Space Yiff player who wasn't a land whale, smelled like shit, had fucked up hair, or some combination of the above

>>49198408
That's one epic battle scene

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>>49199390
This is now a First Legion thread.

>>49199433
>>49199390
Reminder that loyalty is its own reward.

>>49199446
Some post the Lion boxing Leman!

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>>49199433
>>49198395

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>>49198996
Stop being butthurt that the Imperial equivalent of Christmas isn't named after your Primarch even though you have Santa.

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>>49199347

Judging by their codices, BA, DA, and SW also have unique psychic arts.

Really seems like the only thing it takes to create a unique psychic art is for a person or group of people to come up with the idea and then teach it to others.

>>49199390
>>49199433
At this point they've actually managed to make the Unforgiven seem more Mary-Sue than the fucking vampire-angel space marines.

How do you even manage that?

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>>49199262
>>49199340
You are fucking retarded. There is no such thing as a first found chapter you fuckwit, read the OP

>>49199496
Well it's not like the warp really follows rules...

>>49199496
There's special rules for all the first founding chapters psykers, and some successors. Carcharodons have some special psyker abilities, and I believe the Minotaurs do too.

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>>49199520
>first founding chapters
Not a thing newfag. First founding was Space Marine Legions

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>>49198395
>first founding chapters
>magpies
Might as well have picked slaan marines you astoundingly homosexual heretic.
Lamenters best chapter of all the imperium.

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>Recruit from Terra
>Primarch build the Fortress on Terra for the Emperor
>Have the best second founding chapters
>Masters of Siege and Siege Breaking
>Light up their entire nervous system as a form of meditation
>Will not back down from any fight, no matter the odds

>>49199553
>Lamenters best chapter of all the imperium.
This is what lamenterfags actually believe.

>>49199563
see
>>49199170

>>49199515

Pretty much

Biomancy, Divination, Telephathy, Pyromancy, and Telekinesis are seemingly the most common and/or easiest powers to grasp, but with effort it seems as if you can really do anything.

>>49199566
>This is what lamenterfags actually believe
But isn't that true for all fans of a chapter believe about their chapter by definition?

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>>49199469
>40th millennia of our Lord on terra
>There are people who still don't recognize Marneus Calgar as their Spiritual Liege

>>49199566
>help civilians
>genuinely want to better humanity
As opposed to
>edgy thieves
>ICATOSICARIUS
>those idiots who got pranked by Vulkan
>furries
>white tryhards
>irrelevant chapters
>heretic chapters

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If we're talking about effectiveness and bang for your space marine, then Raven Guard no question.

>>49199624
I want this Lamenters meme to die

>>49199688
it will never die so long as there are idiots who can be duped into thinking that losing is heroic.

>>49199710
It is if it's noble.

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>>49199718
>losing is noble

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>>49199433
>>49199502
Because they are better. Do YOU have bikes with a 2++ re-rolling jink?

I didn't think so.

>>49199744
>"is"
>not "can"

Dropped out of school, huh?

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>>49199755

>>49199775
How many loyalists are these DA's killing in this pic?

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>>49199775

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>>49199791
It doesn't matter. The God-Emperor will know his own.

>>49199791
0.
However they abandoned 1,890,765,541 to a gruesome death earlier when they heard about a fallen.

>>49199804
Oh no, he will. Probably why the Dark Angels are so busy trying to keep their traitor hides from being found out. A few more wretched years of life before being judged according to their sins.

Only one of you in this thread had managed to spell Raven Guard correctly. Come on people, it isn't that hard, unlike Corax' dick.

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>>49199605
>>49199469
We march for Macragge!

>>49198395
Mine.

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>>49199824
The Dark Angels are loyal, but the traitors of Luther who swore themselves to Chaos must be destroyed for the good of the Imperium.

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>>49199840
tfw we will always be the subject of jealousy from canonically not the best chapters.

>>49198996
Sorry, they are the worst.

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>>49199860
>>49199864
Too bad the Dark Angels aren't a Chapter.

>>49199056
I did not know this miniatures until now... What a fucking shit!
I mean, I don't like space wolves, but this, this is beyond the rasonable.

>>49199891
Well, they are now. Have been for almost ten thousand years.

>>49199864
They're probably one of the better chapters/legions, it's a real shame canon can't let them be just great, they need to be the absolute bestestest

>>49198395
I hate when this kind of thread didn' have an strawpol.

>>49199710
>If a chapter isn't constantly winning it sucks even if that chapter actually does what the Empower wanted of his marines.
>Preferring a bunch of successful dicks to the hard fought and brave heroes who live and die for humanity

>>49199976
One Space Marine is worth a million Imperial citizens.

The Emperor was pragmatic as fuck, he knew this. Sometimes innocents have to die to ensure the safety of the whole.

>>49199976
Imperial citizens are literally worth less than the dirt they live upon. Space Marines exist to ensure humanity's safety, they don't exist to ensure the safety of humans.

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The rusemasters will always hold a special place in my heart.

>implying they aren't loyal to the Emperor to this day

>>49199563
>literally takes ork dick down to the last man

>>49198640
>the White Scars who did nothing during the heresy
khan taking lion's gate is why the siege ended, m8

>>49200204
>loyal to the emperor
>believing the lies of aliens
>slaughtering loyal legions at istvaan
how about no

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>Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...

SURPRISE, FUCKERS!

DESERT FANGS, FOR THE EMPRAH, FOR LIFE.

>>49199100
3rd es armored werewolfs > *rises paw* flamenco satyrs

>>49199769
There is no honor in defeat. That is klingon 101

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>>49199462

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>>49198456
>>49198505
Come on you two, we're all Defenders of Terra here.

We should all know that the Imperial Fists are the best.

For the Imperial Fist's Shoulders are Broad, and the Imperium sits easy upon them.

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>>49199943

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>>49199170
You mean we were reduced to 1 man.

Yeah, and we came back from it, better than the Blood Angels which were ACTUALLY all killed off at one point.

>>49199563
Mah Nigga

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>>49201263
>>49201210
>>49199563
>all these people with excellent taste

Space yiffs and closet gays go home

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>>49201334
He says with a dead First Founding Chapter.

Black Templars>Blood Angels>The rest

and purely because of the cool shit they do with their elite soldiers

smurfs are complete shit because everyone just looks the same, I want a vampire walking around in a golden corpse mask or a knight with a power great sword you fucks

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>>49198395
Blood Angels have best primarch, but are far from best FF chapter.

Space Niggers is where it's at.

>Bro it up with regular humans
>Spend lots of time repairing and artificing their gear, so have most pimp looks
>Don't give a shit about that lame-ass anti-grav
>Meltas, Flamers and Plasma-weaponry to melt bitchniggas out the way

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This thread is full of fucking plebeians and barbarians man.

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And savages without fashion.

>>49201361
It might be the haircut but he looks like Trump.

When he and Dorn come back, will they build a wall around the Eye of Terror and make Abaddon pay for it?

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Ladies hop on this rowboat.

>>49201334
I've found mah niggas

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Best chapter/legion coming through.

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You all have to appreciate Emperor's finest.

>>49199056

What the fuck is this

Are Space Wolves chaos now?

How is this allowed?

Are those really ice weapons?

>>49201347
The Imperial Fists are at full strength in 998.M41. Where did this dead meme come from?

>>49201644
The Imperial Fists were destroyed to the man during The Beast's rampage through the Imperium and were rebuilt using a later founding Chapter.

>>49201334
Oh look it's baby's first chapter
>wah painting is hard!
> is there a chapter that requires no skill? Like I can just spray paint it black and fuck up coloring the eyes?
This is BT players in a nutshell.

>>49201644
The Imperial Fists are dead. They were completely killed off by Orks and replaced by the Fists Exemplar, who changed their name and paintjob.

>>49201644
The Fists are no longer the original Iron Cage surviving sons of Dorn, but rather the codex worshipping sons of Dorn who took over after Orks killed N-1 out of N Imperial Fists

>>49198702
Stop acting tsundere Lion. We all know that little feud you had with Russ was the closest thing to friendship you could muster

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Thousand Sons and Magnus did nothing wrong on purpose

>>49202018
Reminder that they continue to serve the Emperor through that one crazy raven guy

>>49199976
They all died because they helped straight out traitors to the Imperium who started a civil war resulting in the deaths of billions.

>>49201966
Well technically they are. The Fist Exemplars progenitors fought in the Horus Heresy just as much as their Legion's name bearers. There is not a big difference.

>>49202018
Shattering the Webway was totally on purpose. Magnus knew that such powerful Wards wouldn't be in place unless they were protecting something extremely important that could change the fate of the Imperium.

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wolf vs. lion

at least the lion isn't covered in fur, lion imagery and claws

>>49199563
>confirmed primarch kill
>greatest fleet bar none
>greatest captains
>dat unwaveringly loyalty
>dem idealist
>most horrific recruitment
>superior bolter discipline
>+10 will power

>>49199669
>>49199563
>>49199553
>>49198456
>>49199385
>>49201210
>>49201263
>>49201334
>>49201361
These niggas all know what's up. Guess the ultrafags get an honorable mention.

>>49198395
Iron Warriors

>>49202241
>>confirmed primarch kill

>Implying

>>49201738
>table top

>>49202241
>confirmed primarch kill
Dorn ain't dead. He's just missing a hand.

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I never thougt that the ultramarines were the favorite chapter for anyone out of the meme. I'm honestly pretty shocked.
I'm not even trying to be sarcastic. I thougt that they are the poster ones becauses player 1 = blue, player 2 =red...

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>>49202241
Im with you guys.
But I never liked the red trim in the shoulders.

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>>49202361
Know No Fear, Betrayer, and their Horus Heresy rules went a long way towards making the Ultramarines cool again. Also, Roman aesthetics. Goddamn, those Suzerains look stylish. Blue and gold has never looked so good.

Then Unremembered Empire happened and did some very silly things. Goddammit.

>>49202361
>player 1 = blue, player 2 =red...
3 = green? 4 = yellow?
Also, what kind of person likes yellow? it seems very popular here.
Is any chapter orange? I love orange.

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>Red vs Blue
>What's up with that anyway? I mean, I signed on to fight some aliens. Next thing I know, Kor Phaeron blows up the whole Ultramarine armada and I’m stuck in the middle of Calth, fighting a bunch of blue guys.

>>49202533
>Know No Fear, Betrayer, [...]
This is why I do not like ultramarines, they are too good, they are so good that they are boring.
Dark and Blood Angels, for example have a better feel, for me, because they are fucked.

Someone can summarize the worst (and coolest) betrayals-fear of the loyalist chapters?

>>49199891
Is that Brother Nero vs Broken Matt Hardy?

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>>49198996
as if regular vikings weren't fucking lame now they are space furries

>>49202394
Only the third company rocks the red trim.

>>49202145
Except that getting the message through would've cut the Heresy at the root.
>Horus taken out before he gets buffed to the point of being a match to the Emperor
After that, Lorgar and Angron can get taken down without much issue, the two being largely unsaveable. After that it's a matter of freeing Fulgrim from possession and convincing him and Perturabo that they can still be forgiven, and have a long good talk with Mortarion and Curze. Imperium survives the Horus Heresy with relatively minor losses.

>>49202633
Dark Angels - Totally not half their legion turning traitor
White Scars - Half their legion (almost) turning traitor
Space Wolves - Pissing off Magnus, pissing off the Inquisition
Imperial Fists - Technically all killed by orks, also stupidly stubborn
Blood Angels - Berserker PTSD
Iron Hands - Primarch lost his head to his favourite brother, now turn themselves into robots because of daddy issues
Ultramarines - Muh Codex, muh getting backstabbed by Word Bearers and World Eaters simultaneously
Salamanders - Ate so much shit at Isstvan that they nearly got wiped out. Also, their Primarch is a pretty cool unkillable guy, which means that his life generally consists of suffering to balance things out
Raven Guard - Also ate shit at Isstvan. Primarch tried to fix things with science but got dicked by Alpha Legion keikkaku

>>49202633
>they are too good
Anon, they spend most of that page count getting their asses kicked while the authors try to inject some depth and flaws into Rob and their legion's culture.

>>49199553
Blood Angels, not Ravens. Also Lamenters aren't first founding you memeing fuck

>>49202866
Thanks.
>Iron Hands - Primarch lost his head to his favourite brother, now turn themselves into robots because of daddy issues
This sounds really fucked up, what was this issues?
I'm going to lurk, I like the robot part and I want to have a fav chapter.

>>49203055
Well the majority of their issues stem from the aforementioned viking haircut Ferrus Manus received. Other than that they have a innate perfectionist streak that makes them compulsively want to improve their bodies with cybernetics

>>49203055
>>49203090
"They are not my hands. This fact is forgotten by my brothers -- inexplicably, it has always seemed to me. The hands are strong, to be sure, and have created great things for us all, but they are not mine. And that counts for something. They forget that the silver on my arms comes from a beast that I vanquished. It is the mark of a great evil that I ended, and yet it persists within me... I would struggle to remove it now... I will not remove the silver from my flesh because I have learned to depend on it. The fault is with my mind. I rely on the augmentation given to me by my metal gauntlets, so much so that the flesh beneath them is now little more than a distant memory... A day will come when I will strip it from me, lest I lose the power to master myself forever. Already my Legion's warriors replace their shield hands with metal in my honour, and so they too are learning to doubt the natural strength of their bodies. They must be weaned off this practice before it becomes a mania for them. Hatred of what is natural, of what is human, is the first and greatest of the corruptions. So I record it here: when the time comes, I will strip my hands of their unnatural silver. I will instruct my Legion to recant their distrust of the flesh. I will turn them away from the gifts of the machine and bid them relearn the mysteries of flesh, bone and blood. When my father's Crusade is over, this shall be my sacred task. When the fighting is done, I shall cure my Legion and myself. For if fighting is all there is, if we may never pause to reflect on what such devotion to strength is doing to us, then our compulsion will only grow."

—The Neimerel Scrolls attributed to the Primarch Ferrus Manus

My fucking God Emperor, that lurk...

>>49203055
Well Ferrus Magnus had metal hands, so obviously his legion wanted to follow him, by chopping off their own hands and replacing them with mechanical counterparts.

Cut to Isstvan where Fulgrim shortens him by about a head and you have a grieving legion which feels that flesh is weak because the fleshy neck of Ferrus failed him. Seriously, their battlecry is 'The Flesh is Weak!'

There was also some shit involving them repressing their emotions, inadvertently feeding a daemonic entity with their emotions, which forced them to stop with the whole no emotions we are robots thing.

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>>49203127
I like them, but I think that they are too much fucked and are too much autistic for me.

>>49203171
Too fucked and too autistic sums up about 90% of all space marine chapters sadly Pretty much every chapter has something that they obssess with, whether its relics, honour, codex or killing daemons/xenos/heretics/other space marines

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>>49203055
You can enjoy the ironhands the way i enjoy them. Asthetically.

But i think their fluff is pretty bad compared to the rest's. I have faith that it will be expanded upon sometime. I do my part by making non-standard ironhands characters.
For example; for my DW campaign i made an ironhand that, instead of getting into arguments with his battlebrothers all the time, and stupidly walking slowly towards the enemy underfire, because hating the weak. Instead of that, i made him as a person who sees hate as a game, which you would if you were in a chapter about hate and surrounded by it all the time. Hes also a tracker, so the sort of person who relys on themselves for survival in the wilderness, making him a bit like ray meers, more self relyant than hating weakness. Also due to his background i gave him two bionics, two blade-legs (like the ones Oscar Pistorius has, only with more armour.) and a bionic eye. He basically views himself as being like a missile, a piece of technology vastly suprior to his quarry, with better legs he can follow them long distances and catch up. He can also do a super jump which allows him to see over enemy cover at close range, and pop off a few shots. Hes a tactical marine btw, so bolter with combi flamer is his thing. He also likes to use metal storm ammo.

>>49199605
lel he's a nugget

>>49198575
White Scars
>Didn't pick a side
>Basically TRAITOR SCUM
>no special armor
>Special units are just normal units with gay primitives names
>Vehicle based, BUT NO SPECIAL VEHICLES kekekekek
>DA RED UNS GOEZ FASTAHS

Eat my angelic wings, faggot.

>>49198996
>Space furries calling the glorious winged sons mutants

Try harder wolfspawn

>>49201681
To bad that's wrong. Slaughter survived and they temporarily took on 4 honorary battle brothers from successors until they could start replacing their losses with their stored gene seed.

>>49199390
Reminder that Blood Angels are the most fiercely loyal chapter to the Emperor, and that the First Legion were all Traitors by deed or by conspiracy.

>>49202268
>>49202347
Dorn killed Alpharius, time to accept and move on.

>>49199469
>>49199605
>
>>49199840
Fuck off Ward, you sameposting shit.

>>49199586
You can do anything, in theory. The Warp is pure energy that can be directed by thought and emotion. If you expand those two fields, the possibilities should be endless.

>>49199553
>lamenterfags haven't all been killed off

Guess you aren't that big a fan after all.

>>49199563
Sons of Dorn secret Legion is the best.

>>49199791
0. Loyalists can't be hit by DA shells, therefor everyone they hit was a traitor.

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All the First Founding chapters are shit because GW's writing is shit. Even if the setting weren't so bloated, the horrible writing is the final nail on the coffin. The Dark Angels never do anything aside from hunt Fallen and be fucking secretive all the time instead of maybe fighting Orks for a change, the Raven Guard could be bros but they're emo and dying, the Blood Angels are even worse on the emo and dying front even though they should have their nobility to contrast with their inner bloodthirstiness, the Ultramarines lost half of their fanbase due to Ward's phrasing of what had always been written, the White Scars are barely redeemable because they've got shit to them because GW hates giving them any attention and gave the Dark Angels better bikes, the Space Wolves are overly wolfy and have the same problem as the DA mixed with the BAs, except instead of Fallen or Red Thirst it's Wulfen, and the Imperial Fists keep on fucking dying.

This happens to any chapter that gets popular - the Black Templars are just crusading murderhobos, the Lamenters are sob story 'feel bad for me' marines without any of the flaws of their parents aside from artificially created 'bad stuff happens' bullshit. It drives a man to Chaos, except GW's writing there is even worse.

>>49199864
Just remember, in First Edition, the XIII Legion was traitor. GW says all is canon, not all is necessarily true. You're suspect to BLAMMing.

>>49200204
>believing xenos lies and teamkilling everyone
>loyal
Pick one.

>>49203500
>Imperial Fists (plural) were active in The Beheading, right after The Beast was defeated
>Fists Exemplar Captain Maximus Thane became Imperial Fists Chapter Master at some later
Face it, the Fists Exemplar got a paintjob and took over

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>>49202866
>Raven Guard - Also ate shit at Isstvan. Primarch tried to fix things with science but got dicked by Alpha Legion keikkaku
So what do they do? I searching for them since give up from the Iron Hands (the solution that you made is a little farfetched >>49203423 "they lack of fluff but you can create fluff in your head").
Nobody likes them?

>>49201738
I hope getting into tabletop doesnt turn me into this much of a dick

>>49203669
The Fists have the 2nd most stable gene-seed, meaning they had fucktons stored up on Mars. Fists Exemplar provided a Chapter Master, and there were other Fist-descendants that helped with training, but they were still Fists when they rebuilt.

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>>49203697
The Raven Guard are honestly pretty cool, since most of their captains seem to be of the 'I want to protect normal humans' variety, and even though their chapter is slowly dying it's not as bleak as with the Lamenters, and they've got a few successors to help continue the legacy. They also have a slight tacticool vibe if you're into that thing.

But alongside the White Scars, they are one of the two most forgotten about 1st founding chapters, because GW doesn't like albinos and mongols.

>>49202018
Too bad on purpose doesn't count in grimdarktopia
>>49202145
Yeah, like maybe, idk, the whole Horus thing? Why would a big fucking gate into the heart of the Imperial Palace NOT have super huge fucking wards?

>>49203746
Now we're just getting into a Ship of Theseus argument.

They might be made with Imperial Fist gene-seed, but if they're brought up by Fists Exemplar marines, they're not really Imperial Fists anymore, since they were raised and trained by Space Marines of the Fists Exemplar culture. Even if the Fists Exemplar try to act as Imperial Fists as much as possible, they can't possibly act as the Imperial Fists.

>>49203791
To be fair the Fists Exemplar are pretty much just really Codex-compliant Imperial Fists.

>>49203839
But the Imperial Fists were still their own unique thing before they had their culture replaced by that of the Fists Exemplar.

You could argue that the various Unforgiven are just different flavors of Dark Angel, but they're still distinct and have their own traditions and history. Same with the Blood Angels sucessors - if we asked the Flesh Tearers to rebuild the Blood Angels, you'd bet things would be different.

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>>49203748
So their worst issue is that they are the "goth guys"?
I can't find any concrete fluff of their behavior and their specific chapter aspects instead that they use jumpacks.

>>49203953
You couldn't even find that they use guerrilla tactics and rely heavily on their scouts?

>>49203839
Wrong, the fist were shown to have a completely different culture from what we know of them today. They named their companies from the walls of the imperial palace, not to mention they had the organs that they're missing in 40k such as the coma and acid spitting organs. We wont know what happens, as of now slaughter is still alive and they are starting to rebuild Imperial fist, not fist exemplars. Whether or not slaughter survives the series and thane takes comand over them or the new battle brother die haven't been told yet.

>>49204138
Either way it's pretty obvious that the original Imperial Fists and their culture are dead.

>>49203995
Yep, more or less that.
>were known as cunning and patient hunters, adept at biding their time until the moment to strike was at hand

They doesn't look completely stupid stubborn like the others...
I trying to get to the part that says why they are dying.

>>49204161
That could be because they leave Terra and are no longer it's defenders. Its what weakened tbem in the first place.

>>49204165
Well their gene-seed is pretty wrecked, missing some important organs such as the one that helps them survive a vacuum

They're also not very good at attrition fighting, whenever that occurs they tend to lose a lot of space marines

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Reasonable marines reporting in.

So reasonable that they won't get their own book.

>>49204165
Their gene-seed's messed up, and they can't often rely on what they recover from dead marines. Usually they have to rely on gene-stocks on Terra, which only slows the decline. They also only have a few successors for this same reason.

>>49204330
>Raptors
>OP asked for First Founding

>>49204457
They were part of the original legion, close enough

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>>49204330

>>49203523
> 2016

> Still Ward posting

You just finish reading through 1d4chan kiddo?

>>49204889
>IT'S 2016 PEOPLE

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>>49203660
>xeno "lies"
>implying the Imperium in it's current state isn't falling apart and won't fall to Chaos like the Cabal predicted
>implying those loyal legions aren't unknowingly keeping the emperor from making his return

>>49205036
Well it sure as fuck isn't 2012 when that shit was relevant.

>>49201681
>>49201754
>>49201966

Fuck. I've never heard of this. Is this from Beast Arises?

>>49205210
Yep

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>>49198395

Ultramarines were pretty great before Matt Ward.

Old Space Wolves also, before the cartoony furry shit.

White Scars, Raven Guard and Salamanders never ever got enough love or attention.

>>49204138
If Slaughter is still alive and oversaw the rebuilding of the Imperial Fists he sure as hell would instill the culture of the original Imperial Fists into the new recruits made with the same Gene-Seed. I doubt he'd stand by and let the Fists Exemplar completely handle the education and indoctrination of the chapter initiates.

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>>49204330

Cheeky cunts they are

>>49204889
>Time has passed and therefor things aren't bad and you can't say things that have been said wahhhhhh

Ok guy

>>49205348
Why would he continue naming the companies after walls if they were no longer manning those walls? There's no mention of the fist exemplars having lost any organs, could be from an accelerated recruitment regime

>>49199340
kek

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>>49201334
10/10 would endless crusade with

>>49201738
Xeno, heretic or mutant
Which one are you, scum?

I'm sorry but all of these suits are just impractical as fuck in a real war situation. How fucking silly.

>>49206546
Thank god it's make believe

>>49206546
How so anon? What do you know that Mars doesn't?

>>49206631
My plastic men are realer than you

>>49206631
Just like your girlfriend

>>49206631
I want to be make believe. At least then that means someone is thinking of me.

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>>49199563
>Masters of Siege and Siege Breaking

.... Dorn. Dorn, who let you out?

Get back in your cage, Dorn.

Remember cages?

haHA cage.

>>49199744
If you were talking about Iron Warriors (who do the same thing for different reasons), you'd be btfo'd so fast, you wouldn't have time to say bitter.

>>49199553
Lamenters come from Blood Angels

>>49203127
Yeah, but their most recent chapter master has kinda set them straight. Now they've decided to let out 10000 years of pent up anger.

>>49205349
>The Raptors became more tactical because of the shame of having dozens of their men killed by a mere Fire Warrior.

Imperial Fists are the best legion

>so favored by Big E., he has them act as his personal Legion
>most loyal
>Greatest Fleet during the Great Crusade and Heresy
>Fought at the Battle of Terra
>Sigismund greatest swordsman in the Imperium
>strong, clean, handsome gene-seed
>based mustache
>masters of urban, siege, and ship to ship combat and boarding actions
>not autistic like Perturabo, Russ, Lion, or Magnuson.
>believed in the Imperial Truth and not Logar's babbling.
>best second founding chapters.

>>49209826
>the ultramarines mock the raptors for being shit in the novelization

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>2016
>not being a psychic, force sword/combi bolter wielding badass blessed with the emperor's own geneseed.
mmk

>>49205111
>listening to the cabal instead of shitstomping them
>supporting the arch-heretic in making the cabal's half-baked prophecy real
>all because people rightfully called you a tosser and you wanted to shoot up their school to teach them who's boss
>loyal

>>49210191
Except the Alpha Legion was doing their own thing for pretty much the entirety of the Horus Heresy and continue to be an uncontrollable entity by Chaos in the 41st millennium. They had no reason to believe that the Cabal's prophecy was false and only did what they thought was best for the galaxy and the Emperor.

>>49210177
>M41
>Being a shitty mary sue

GK go home

>>49198395
Fists. Fuck your opinions, Fists were the Emperor's favourite after Luna Wolves. Since they had their falling-out, that makes Dorn the Big E's favourite son now, and the Fists his favourite legion. They even have Terra as their homeworld.

Sorry fatties, but the Emperor's opinion trumps yours. We're man enough to wear yellow.

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>>49198395
Definitely raven guard.

>>49202861

Don't forget Typhus because he was already long gone.

>>49203518
That was Gulliman weren't it?

>>49199563
>imma replace this fat baby's head with a gold skull
>k
>and imma give the fat baby wings so it can fly
>k

>>49210629
As of Praetorian of Dorn, no, Dorn killed Alpharius. Afterwards, Omegon took up the Alpharius name to keep up the facade in front of Horus. Rob's kill was highly disputed even in-universe. Even Ultramarines thought it was bullshit, IIRC. Rob's kill may have been Omegon or even just a mere body double.

>>49210763
I continue to dislike the HH series for ruining the mystery and confusion of the event.

>>49210629
>Not a single spiritual liege meme in the entire thread

>>49210799
I just wish I could follow what the fuck is going on with the Alpha Legion. Who's loyal? Who's a traitor? Or are they all following their own agenda at this point? What the fuck is the Cabal doing? What's the significance of the sigma repetition in Legion iconography? Why no writer love for Pech or Herzog? Was Silonius actually an important officer or just a grunt who got conveniently picked for the Terra op? Does the Iron Circle dream of electric decimation?

>>49210799
The "mystery" has always been hackneyed and awful, especially since it really on came about in 3e, when all the lore changed objectively for the worse.
You hear the same complaint about Daemonhunter fluff when the entire codex was literally copypasta from BL novels, not even giving out ideas on what was a standard tactical approach by GK.

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>>49198395
Imperial Fists best. But Dorn is not loyal.
Pic related.

>>49210896
See
>>49199605

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>These kids actually think they're the best chapter
Ignorance must be bliss.

>>49203646
>XIII Legion was traitor

Interesting! Sauce?

>>49212195
If Dorn turned traitor Horus would have won easily

>>49212877
If Dorn turned traitor Horus would lose easily.

>>49213152
Let me correct that, if only Dorn turned traitor the heresy would have won

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>>49198395
The First Legion of course!

>>49213420
No, because Perturabo would fortify Terra instead of him and traitor would be trapped in cage.

>>49210763
>Praetorian of Dorn,
Omg BL are such hacks. I cant deal with this shit anymore. How the fuck can anyone still defend this travesty.

>>49206938

We don't *know* that he's missing a hand.

>>49213668
>Omg BL are such hacks. I cant deal with this shit anymore.
After all the shit GW (not just BL) has put out since 5e, THIS is where you draw the line?

>How the fuck can anyone still defend this travesty.
Shit taste and/or autism

>>49213773
Pebbles into landslide I guess. I dont give a shit what they do to current fluff but retconing established legion histories during the heresy? Fuck them.

>>49199553
>slaan marines

Oh fuck, that made my day! Just imagine how these would look.

>>49212779

Seriously? First edition books, just as it was written. Read more here https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ultramarines#First_Edition_History

>>49199553
This is some high quality bait

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>>49201055
>Klingons
>Applying Xeno logic to the Emperor's Holy Space Marines

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>>49213668
>fun book that does something no one expected while still keeping within the constrains of the lore
>OMG HACKS! how dare they deviate in any way from canon that totally never changed before!

just kill yourself

also best first founding chapter

>>49201738
>Painting is hard
>Can I just spray paint it one colour and then add some minor detailing afterwards?

I'll take what is the entire Space Marine faction for 500$?

Seriously though that's like one of the first things mentioned in nearly every SM codex, trying to turn around and say the BT are any worse than any of the others is just idiocy.

>>49213921
Do you know how stupid some of the "established history" about the heresy is/was?

>>49210799
"mystery and confusion"

This is shorthand for sloppily and incompletely written.

>>49214076
>1d4chan
>a source

It doesn't even provide a screenshot.

>>49216336
>https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ultramarines#First_Edition_History
I'm not even that guy and it took me 2 seconds to find the screenshot link on the 1d4chan page

https://www.scribd.com/doc/118383071/WD97-Chapter-Approved-Index-Astartes

>>49199056
Gayfags the legion.

Motto:

" we fuck wolves, come at me bro "

>>49218692
>Gayfags the legion

Literally the Dark Angels. Not even a Space Wolves fan, but their entire shtick is that they're secretly gay and hunting down all their gayness across an amazingly masculine galaxy.

>>49199056
fukken digganobz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y29aGTbg62A

>>49218794
I see you like the leetest of memes too.

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>>49218848

>>49199793
Best color scheme by far.

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>>49218950

>>49213448
That was such a retarded moment.

Dark Angel fluff for the Heresy should have ended with Savage Weapons.
So should NL fluff for that matter.

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For once, OP is correct.

>>49214235
>>fun book that does something no one expected while still keeping within the constrains of the lore
>>OMG HACKS! how dare they deviate in any way from canon that totally never changed before!
What actually happens in the story?

>>49219605
His kid back talked him and was sworn to the emperor, no way he was going to back down.

>>49219810
There's a world of difference between not backing down and chimping out like a retard and killing your de-facto son.

>>49219618
>What actually happens in the story?
As it turns out, Alpharius has been planning the infiltration of Terra since before the Heresy. Numerous Legion personnel were seeded throughout the Sol System over the years, including Astartes in suspended animation stashed on Terra. He plays those cards now, spreads panic across Sol, and starts a shadow war with the Fists. Some Alpha Legion grunts infiltrate the palace, blow up Primarch statues to send a message, and either escape or get killed by the Fists. Dorn suppresses the news to avoid panic and enlists his chief bodyguard to counter the sneeki breekis.

The Alpha Legion raises hell across Sol and sabotages defenses. A select few Fists investigate and hunt down the people who smuggled Alpha Legion assets into Sol. Interrogation happens.

Eventually, stuff progresses to Pluto and the outer defensive sphere, which gets attacked by an Alpha Legion fleet. In the meantime, it turns out that the main Alpha Legion grunt in the story wasn't a grunt, but actually Alpharius. Psychic shenanigans allowed him to implant a false identity into his mind for opsec reasons. It's confusing and weird.

During the battle, Dorn, Alpharius, and their respective bodyguard units throw down. Alpharius spends the fight talking about giving Dorn victory. Dorn has none of that shit, tanks a hit from the Pale Spear, and gives Al a double Skywalker handshake. After some more mumbling about victory, Dorn applies chainsword to face.

Across the galaxy, Omegon feels the psychic trauma and repeatedly thinks to himself, 'I am alone.' Then he gets a call from Horus and takes up the Alpharius identity to keep up the facade.

I probably missed some details or got some events out of order, but overall, that's the general gist of it.

>>49220017
Seems... kinda pointless, wasting a rather important character without much payoff.

Putting in one for the Sons of the Gorgon

>>49220054
>kinda pointless
Yeah, it's kind of stupid, but it does seem somewhat in line with their Legion culture. Past fluff did make a point about their hubris and attempts to do pointless things. See the whole "It would have been too easy" story. It's just that this time, it went horribly, horribly wrong. Still, it is incredibly silly that Alpharius would think he could negotiate with Rogal fucking Dorn of all people.

>>49216073
Yes. It used to be sloppy and incomplete with room for peoples headcannon

Now it's sloppy and complete and the steaming pile of shit is unquestionable.

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>>49201361
Vulkan best primarch, but Sang comes as close second desu fellow nigmarine

also reminded that Salamanders aren't "african" black, just burned black. Vulkan has caucasian features and aside from Lorgar is Primarch iwth most reassemblence of the Big E

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>>49220340
Nocturnians are already dark-skinned (see the flashback of Vulkan talking to his adopted father), the gene-seed only doubles down on that and gives them the red eyes.
So unless this is the one case of GW making up an ethnicity instead of just copypasting it, they're what we'd call African looking, just extra black.

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>>49198395
That's a funny way of spelling Iron Warriors.

But, there's nothing bad I can say about Sangy. He was based. And that's coming from a 300% Heretic.

>>49202016
>Tsun-tsun Lion
Makes sense in some adorable way.

>>49202633
I actualy like that they are some guys out there somewhat successful at doing the right-ish things, instead of everything being grimderp and turning to shit.
The Space Romans and the whole background around them can be very cool when portrayed the right way.

>>49222605
It can be cool, but unfortunately all the retardation kinda overwhelms anything cool. And this is coming from the biggest Romefag ever. If anything, I'm mostly upset that I can't like SpaceRome more. But even from an ignoring Ward crap standpoint, they are kinda assholes. They have a huge undeserved reputation, especially for a Legion that didn't make it to Terra for the Siege. Guilliman also was a empire-building dick, not a team player. And they carry that on by not giving much of a fuck about the Imperium outside Ultramar.

>>49202016
It's not cool to make fun of how autists form relationships man.

>>49222642
>why did Guilliman consolidate Imperial forces in the area instead of doing a blind, literal suicide charge to help, possibly already fallen, Terra?
Never understood why people bitch about this

>>49222605
>Space Romans
What they do to be called space romans instead a bunch of memes?
I seriously want to know.

>>49222642
>a Legion that didn't make it to Terra for the Siege
And now the whole Ruinstorm/Imperium Secundus thing makes the issue even more confusing. The Blood Angels and Dark Angels were both at Macragge. How did the Blood Angels arrive at Terra before Rob and the Lion? Did Sanguinius just leave earlier than the other two? Warp weirdness? Rob and the Lion taking the wrong turn at Albuquerquius Prime?

>not a team player
He's listed as Sworn Brothers with Sanguinius, Ferrus, Dorn, and the Army. Know No Fear also shows that he's very hurt by Ferrus' death. The two of them were good friends. His efforts to write the codex included going around and learning from his brothers. He also tried to play nice with the Mechanicus presence in Ultramar. Seems like a team player to me.

>>49222965
Girlyman nearly started a second civil war too.

Fuck that piece of shit.

>>49222877
>Shining the Pharos on his own world, diverting 2 full Legions from Terra
>Telling forces they were going to Terra
>Having Imperium Secondus planned before the Heresy even started
>Both Malcador and Empy knew he was going to try and rule for himself

>>49222965
The easiest solution is Warp shenanigans, but that feels like a cop out to me. I like to think that Sangy decided they would go help Terra, but Rob and Lion both didn't trust each other and somehow got stuck. And by "not a team player", I mean, "not a team player on teams he isn't the leader of". For example, he does the whole "oh my god bros, I can't believe Daddy dicked us out of ruling too, ouch" thing, then promptly gives the Imperium to the High Lords, but with himself as one and no other Primarchs.

>>49198395
It's Blood Ravens, you fucking retard. God, did you even play the games, you fucking newfag?

>>49202635
Underrated.

>>49222884
Ultramarines have more Roman-flavored names than most other legions.
>Marius Gage
>Remus Ventanus
>Sidonus
>Titus
>Pasanius
>Cassius
>Sicarius
>Tigurius
>Vae Victus

The HH books also paint Rob in the light of a Roman-flavored conqueror. One of his titles in the rule books is "Eagle of the East."

There's also lots of crests, eagle imagery, faux-Roman plurals, etc., moreso than in most other Legions. I think only the EC rival them in Romaboo status.

>>49223027
>>49223069
Yeah, not his finest hour. Dick move there. Post-Heresy Rob is a very different man from the HH novel version. I think the HH novels are trying to downplay the control freak aspect (with varying degrees of success), since in the Imperium Secundus arc, he refuses leadership of Imperium Secundus and hands the throne to Sanguinius. Know No Fear Rob also accepts that Horus should have been Warmaster and acknowledges that he doesn't have the charisma to rule. I guess we'll have to wait and see if/how the end of the Heresy turns him into a dick.

>>49222884
>>49223175
Also Macragge is Rome themed just like Olympia is Greece themed.

>>49223175
Before the Heresy, he insulted Alph for taking a planet without a full invasion. Which is bullshit, that invasion was perfect.

Also, the simple fact that he tried to make a Second Imperium instead of helping the first is damning in and of itself. If anyone else tried that, or Roboute at any other time, they would've been tried for Heresy.

Though, he was generally kind of a dick to like a third of the Primarchs.

>>49223175
All the "downplaying control freak" stuff can also be read as a control freak trying to hide what a control freak he is, though. Like when he was like "I can't be Emperor, that would be sooooo wrong, one of my brothers will be", but then Lion shows up and Rob says he's "too inscrutable". That can easily be read as "I can't control you well enough", whereas he knows Sanguinius won't be interested in power, and make an easy puppet.

>>49222605
For me they are boring.
If they where a little grimderp maybe the have something interesting to say...
You have planty of options to take any kind of chapters, mutants, heretics, psicopaths, anything and you pick the nice guys of the rulebook that don't have anything exciting about.

>>49222877
I don't think anything counts as a "blind suicidal rush" when you tote a quarter million marines with some of the best equipment of the Legions.

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>>49223175
>I guess we'll have to wait and see if/how the end of the Heresy turns him into a dick.
>Killed Alpharius, saved Dorn, crippled Night Lords, tried to kill biggest faggot in universe.
>Was least grimderp character in lore since 2nd edition
>Somehow tg still has huge hateboner for him just because BRING BACK MUH LEGIONS or MAHT WURD
You all are bunch of douchebags and nutjobbers you know.

>>49223318
The reason they're boring isn't because of them, it's because they went from being portrayed as "flexible all rounders" to "basic template", even without their actual culture or tactics getting changes.

>>49223175
>>49223225

>a bunch of memes

>>49223262
Point on Alpharius. New fluff tried to pass it off as him criticizing the AL's complexity addiction and their tendency to leave unstable populations behind, but that smacks of whitewashing Old Rob's inability to comprehend the usefulness of unconventional tactics.

>instead of helping the first
To be fair, he was trapped behind warp storms. What was he going to do? Blindly dive in and leave scattered Imperial forces without a rally point, command structure, or fallback plan? The Warp was fucked at the time. If he hadn't activated Pharos, how many fleets in Segmentum Ultima would have even seen the Astronomican? The Secundus was a contingency, explicitly stated to be a temporary government that would be immediately dissolved once contact with Terra was reestablished. How many of the Primarchs even considered having contingencies for shit hitting the fan that hard?

>>49223282
True, the Sanguinius plan does come off as an attempt to set up a puppet leader.

>>49223347
The dick move was him breaking up the Legions (understandable but hamfistedly handled), starting shit with Dorn, and setting himself up as top dog in the Imperial political structure. He did some good things, but also did some dickish things, and some of those things may be up in the air due to how inconsistently written he is.

>killed Alpharius
Disputed in-universe by Ultramarines, now definitively proven false by Praetorian of Dorn.

>>49223393
I mean, you asked, we answered. There's also the whole meritocracy thing, which would fall under "Rome themed"

>>49223465
I mean, the entire inability to comprehend the usefulness of unconventional tactics thing, and by extension the Codex, is another Rome reference to the era when the legions were getting whipped by barbarians a la the British in the Revolutionary War.

>>49223465
>The dick move was him breaking up the Legions (understandable but hamfistedly handled)
Still somehow 40k marines fare better than 30k ones and able to take down greater daemons and primarchs.

>starting shit with Dorn
Because Dorn was full of shit himself, prevented assassinaton oh Horus, and was nearly killed only because of his stubbornness, Roboute should have let Perty sacrifice him.

>but also did some dickish things
Like what? Telling Alpharius that wasting men is bad?

>Disputed in-universe by Ultramarines, now definitively proven false by Praetorian of Dorn.
Next thing they will bring back primarchs and destroy the universe.

>>49223465
>explicitly stated to be a temporary government that would be immediately dissolved once contact with Terra was reestablished

Are you familiar with Julius Caesar, anon?

>>49223583
>Still somehow 40k marines fare better than 30k ones and able to take down greater daemons and primarchs.

10,000 years of experience vs Emperor telling them "Nah, they're just xenos, go get em boys!"

Makes quite the difference.

>>49223633
30k marines are mass produced disposable army
40k marines are elite specialist troops

>>49199223
Yeah, because the leader of the Planet of the Sorcerers can't do something as simple as altering a screenshot. Nice try, you cyclopean twat.

>>49223680
You can't just walk around unraveling Tzeentch's plots like that, bad things happen.

>>49223583
>Still somehow 40k marines fare better than 30k ones and able to take down greater daemons and primarchs.
I'm going to blame that on inconsistencies in power levels across writers and the need to make the primarchs look cool. Can't have grunts stealing primarchs' thunder now, can we?

Also, does Samus count as a greater daemon? Because that guy gets his ass kicked by Astartes in most of his appearances.

>Dorn
Dorn was stubborn, sure. And he did some silly things. But he and Rob were bros before the war. They were actual bros. Pulling a gun on the guy was a bit much, especially since Dorn was still torn up over the Siege of Terra. Jesus, Rob, give the guy a little more time to cool down, then talk to him about it like a normal person. Maybe even some brotherly wrassling.

>Alpharius wasting men
Rob handled it poorly. He berated Alpharius, listed his own victories, and rubbed it in his brother's face that the "youngest" child didn't have as many wins. Not exactly the most mature way to tell your sibling, "Bro, you're doing it wrong." IIRC, it wasn't men he was concerned about since Alpharius achieved very low casualty rates. He was concerned about the wasted time and resources, and as of the latest fluff, the destabilized, angry populations he left behind.

>>49223540
>you asked, we answered
You answered with the roman memes I'm talking about. My mexican neighbour isn't roman but he is called César.

>the whole meritocracy thing
This is the kind of thing I talking about, cultural aspects that make them more roman than others, even at high school level; Have they senate? Strong burocracy? Their temples are their banks? Have they circuses and races? I don't know... thing that could enter in the roman theme instead my planed is called ·%&·&$tum
Anyway I think that there is still too little about them to call them space romans. More or less the same reasons to call them space smurfs.

>>49223720
Samus is daemon prince.

>>49223747
>Have they senate?
Yes.
>Strong burocracy?
Marines administer Ultramar.

File: Valedictors_Astartes.jpg (31KB, 300x428px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 300x428px

These fuckers right here

>>49223674
Hahaha fucking 40kids

>>49223843
Now you are asking.
Any more?

>>49223887
No shit. No legionary murdered primarch in cqc, but adeptus did.

>>49223747
They have senates and Roman architecture and infrastructure. They have public displays for entertainment, I'm not sure if they're specifically Roman-type, but probably. The whole planets history follows the theme of Republic vs Empire of Rome stuff. They hold the practice of meritocracy to the point that a farmers son can get onto Senate or become a Space Marine, although the latter is less likely just because of age restrictions, but a farmer's son could become a noble, and then the noble's son can become a Space Marine easily. So it's not exactly total freedom, but it's a lot more than the greater Imperium could ever hope for. One Ultramar citizen can achieve more than a hundred Hive generations. So I guess that's the "non-memey" stuff?

So who is a bigger secret traitor? The Lion and his Dark Angel's or Robot and his Ultramarines?

Dark Angel's
>Regularly associates with Xeno scum
>Actively trying to deceive the rest of the imperium
>Autistic Primarch
>more than half the Legion fell to Chaos
>pretends it never happened
>waited on the side lines until the Battle of Terra was over.
>gave weapons to traitors
>only accomplished beating up some Night Lords.

Ultras
>control freaks
>also can't make it to Terra
>tries to set up new Imperium with Rowboat the secret leader
>breaks up the legions
>got worked by Word Bearers.

>>49224027
Dark Angels have the bigger secret, but Ultras are less loyal.

>>49223975
And for what little it's worth, Rob's title as "Eagle of the East," Ultramar's location, and the concept of Imperium Secundus were probably meant to be influenced by the ERE. IIRC, Rob also had a relatively liberal policy with regards to conquered populations' religions. He didn't give much of a shit as long as they paid taxes and didn't start trouble.

Macragge is also mountainous, and the few descriptions of it in novels point to vaguely Italian/Mediterranean geography and climate.

It's not much, but some writers tried to do more than add the -ius suffix to some names.

>>49223975
>>49224125
Ok I accept this true arguments. I will call them space smurfs.

>>49224125
Yeah, there's all this geography stuff too, forgot to mention that. They even have a Himalaya harsh area.
>>49224168
They are space smurfs from SpaceRome

>>49198395
>liking space marines
hooh boooy wewww laddds

>>49220054
I think in the long run, it's not Alpharius who was important, but rather Omegon. Omegon seems to be decidedly less arrogant than Alpharius.

>>49223347
He was a politician, and that makes him kind of a slimey character despite his best intentions. Imperium Secundus left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

>>49224494
Alpharius eventually becomes way too obsessed with screaming just as planned 24/7 and somehow not praising Tzeentch, Omegon just wanted to do what was best, but couldn't figure out what that was.

>>49222877
>Holding a significant amount of forces out of the fight when committing them would have won it for your side and holding them back almost lost it
>Trying to pretend that not getting into the fight was a smart move.

The 40k equivalent of Walder Frey is pretty fucking annoying to be honest. Especially after sitting through the most important battle ever he then uses his still intact forces to bully the other Legions into accepting his authority based entirely on "hurr I didn't lose anyone in the fighting so you all have to listen to me or I'll kill you".

>>49199605
Marneus isn't rowboat girlyman.
i would be surprised if he's anyone's spiritual leige

>>49225038
Do you... really not see how flimsy this argument is?
That you advocate a headlong charge into an entirely unknown situation, abandoning a known, defensible, self sustaining position?

>>49225150
Marneus is THE spiritual liege.

>>49225439
How defensible is the position if you simply become one legion holding a few hundred planets against an enemy that now controls the rest of the galaxy and outnumbers you dozens to one after having wiped out the entire rest of the empire in one battle.

I'm sorry but warfare is always full of unknowns. Refusing to commit your forces to one of the most important battles in the history of the entire galaxy to defend your father/Emperor, back up your bothers, and defeat your sworn enemies because you may or may not know what's going on isn't smart. It's cowardice. And to deliberately then siphon away reinforcements from that battle, which could have turned the tide in your favour and prevented the sacrifice of Sanguinious and the Emperor is even more idiotic. And worst of all the device you used to draw those troops away from where they were needed to where they aren't then drew in the Nids, literally the greatest danger to the galaxy ever known.

At worst Rowboat is a self serving traitor that caused the entire state of the current Imperium through his actions. At best he's just the biggest and most idiotic coward with zero willingness to fight for his allies when it puts him at any risk whatsoever, and accidentally caused Horus to come within an inch of victory.

>>49224027
>more than half the Legion fell to Chaos
...No they didn't, the traitors were a minuscule amount and around 30,000 or so turned Traitor. The loyalists massively outnumbered the traitors.

>waited on the side lines until the Battle of Terra was over
Except this has been completely retconned because the Dark Angels threw in with the loyalists from the start as they spread across the entire galaxy in broken up parties to best combat Horus' traitors everywhere. They only failed to show up at Caliban because the Lion ordered them to rush to Caliban to put down Luther.

>only accomplished beating up some Night Lords.
That's not how you say "beat up everyone" and conquered much of the Galactic North.

You're just mad because now in canon the Dark Angels have replaced the Ultramarines as the greatest legion.

>>49223175
Does anyone else feel that the blood angels actually have more realistic Roman traits? The death masks and sanguinary guard in particular look very Greco Roman to me.

>>49225682
Blood Angels are Vatican Roman.

>>49225566
>Warp storms out the ass
>Even loyalists outside of Ultramar have trouble navigating safely
>Lorgar and Angron still potentially at large, plus Curze
>Smurfs have lost over half their number at Calth, along with massive amounts of supplies, heavy armor, transports, and Mechanicus assets
>The thousands of Calth survivors can't be extracted
>Unknown numbers MIA, killed by other traitors, trapped on other worlds, or needed for garrison
>Vast majority of Ultramarine fleet destroyed or heavily damaged
>Traitor forces could potentially strike from anywhere in the Ruinstorm

Even if Rob wanted to (and he almost certainly did), he wouldn't have accomplished anything meaningful with the warp storms still up. Most of his fleet would have likely been destroyed in transit and he would likely have arrived with a force so reduced that it may as well have been written off as combat ineffective. And even if he did make it in time to assault the Vengeful Spirit, he may not have even been in a position to help Sanguinius or the Emperor because Chaos fucked with the teleport sequence. And that's assuming Rob actually gets there intact, or at all. Remember Macragge's Honour, the biggest and baddest ship in the Ultramarine fleet? Lost in the warp. If even that can be lost in the warp, he cannot reasonably expect most of his other ships to survive the journey.

The probability that the Ultramarines could reach Terra in time, make a meaningful contribution, and change the course of history is so low as to be almost zero. The probability that they could do all that and return home to 500 intact worlds is even lower. Dying pointlessly in the warp is a more likely occurrence.

War is full of unknowns, but commanders fucking hate unknowns and do everything they can to reduce them. Recon, intelligence, navigators, and astropaths are all meant to do that. Warp storms completely fuck all four of them.

>>49225905
This.
Secundus arguments are 2 parts "I already know what happened, why didn't he?" and 1 part "Why didn't one of the primarches act like an irresponsible child when I wanted him to?".
Guilliman and Vulkan were the sole primarches willing to set aside their own ego and do what was objectively best for humanity, not for themselves, their legions or the Emperor alone.
That Sanguinus got his knickers in a twist and ran thru the storm, losing an uncounted number of ships, material and lives is not a mark in his favor. The Lion got waylaid by Night Lords almost from the word go and never even made it.
Guilliman made the intelligent decision that a military commander would be expected to make, and is derided for it because he put prudence before vainglory.

>>49225905
>Warp storms out the ass
>Even loyalists outside of Ultramar have trouble navigating safely

Same as everywhere else, so what? Didn't stop them from participating.

>Lorgar and Angron still potentially at large, plus Curze

Much less important than defending Terra, which is priority A by default.

>Smurfs have lost over half their number at Calth, along with massive amounts of supplies, heavy armor, transports, and Mechanicus assets
>The thousands of Calth survivors can't be extracted
>Unknown numbers MIA, killed by other traitors, trapped on other worlds, or needed for garrison
>Vast majority of Ultramarine fleet destroyed or heavily damaged

Hardly relevant. Better to be on hand with 10 men than absent with 10000. They weren't the only Legion that woulda been understrength, and they're existing numbers probably still would have been enough to make a difference.

>Traitor forces could potentially strike from anywhere in the Ruinstorm

That's no excuse for not moving.

The hard fact is that if they lost Terra his position would not have been defensible in any meaningful sense. 500 fortified worlds with all the might he could gather would have never been held if the rest of the Legions had been defeated, the Emperor killed and Terra taken. By trying he might have been barely able to help at all, or he could just as likely made a huge difference we'll never know. But by staying out of it he certainly made the situation that much more dire, and if things had turned south he would have gauranteed his own destruction by offering up the Imperium piecemeal.

>>49226476
Anon, take this drivel to anyone with half an idea of how military matters and strategy works and they will laugh at you.
You prattle on from a position that is entirely unreasonable and desperately relies on an outsider's omniscient view of the situation to make any sense at all.

>>49225905
Cont'd


>The probability that the Ultramarines could reach Terra in time, make a meaningful contribution, and change the course of history is so low as to be almost zero. The probability that they could do all that and return home to 500 intact worlds is even lower. Dying pointlessly in the warp is a more likely occurrence.

Literally irrelevant since defeat on Terra meant a 100% chance of his own isolation and destruction no matter what else happened. Better lose those 500 hundred worlds and 99% of his strength than lose Terra and everything.

>War is full of unknowns, but commanders fucking hate unknowns and do everything they can to reduce them. Recon, intelligence, navigators, and astropaths are all meant to do that. Warp storms completely fuck all four of them.

Commanders do hate them but to say "I wanted to be 100% sure" as an excuse to be indecisive is the worst thing you can possibly do as a commander. Sometimes you need to act with or without knowing all the variables. Sometimes you can only learn of those variables by acting. "Fortune favours the bold" is an ancient expression and it's hard to argue that some of the greatest military victories ever came only as the biggest gambles.