Imperium Asunder

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P R O M P T :

The Triumph of Ullanor is REDACTED's greatest conquest. With the help of nearly half the Emperor's legions at his disposal, he masterminds the purgation of an entire system infected with Orks. The celebration afterward is where the Emperor announces his retirement and named REDACTED as his Warmaster and proxy in the Great Crusade.

>Participating Legions, list subject to change:
>>9 legions in total
Eyes of the Warmaster
Bloodhounds
Sky Serpents
Behemoth Guard
Judgement Bringers
Silver Spears
Crimson Warhawks
Pre-Nikaea Warp Raiders
Pre-Dreadnought? Undying Scions

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>>49128020
Sneeki Breeki Warmaster would send scout assasins to slaughter Ork bosses. They might also yell at them in orkish from the distance to convince the orks to fight each other, like gandalf and the trolls in the hobbit.

Bloodhound hunting parties are tailor made for cleansing worlds of ork scum. Land Raider convoys with jetpack retinues patrol the wastelands of Ullanor slaughtering anything green.

Warp Raider high-mobility craft could be ideal for hunting orks too. Oramar would be very interested in the sorcery of Ork Weirdboys and the gestalt nature of ork technology. Ullanor would be one of the early warning signs of Oranar's heretical notions.

Tons of Imperial auxiliae regiments of all sorts would probably participate in the crusade too.

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>Jafar Caan, Fifth Captain of the Sahaba, Lord of the Octarine Kabal

Jafar Caan is one of the five tribal skypirates from Oramar's homeworld. He is master of the librarian cult of Ba'al Shathoth during the Ultramar Crusade and his warband is one of the fifth legion cohorts called to crusade at Ullanor.

The Ba'al Shathoth cult seeks mastery of the sorcerous art of teleportation. Through the manipulation of gellar fields and skilled readings of the currents of the warp, Jafar's cultists can suddenly appear where the enemy least expects them. To help facilitate this advantage, many of Jafar's warband use grav-harness jump packs, flying platforms, jet bikes, and sky sailers. To predict the movements of the Ba'al Shathoth is to divine the paths of falling apple blossoms: futility.

Jafar's men are called upon to cleanse Ullanor's high mountains and rugged hills, unimpeded by the curvature of terrain. The Crimson Warhawk ??th Company fought with Jafar's 5th Warband and the Sky Serpent's ??th thingymacallit to take down the Big Mek lord Irontusk who had built millions of hangers in the natural caves of Ullanor's mountains. Deeper into those hangers were squigmines which churned out rough iron for Irontusk's sky fortresses.

>>49128747
>Sneeki Breeki Warmaster would send scout assasins to slaughter Ork bosses.

Maybe some Assassinorum operatives?

Does the Officio Assassinorum exist by this point?

>>49128020
>Pre-Dreadnought? Undying Scions
Sarco and his sons are not on Ullanor, but they are campaigning against the Eldar craftworld of Mor-rioh'i on the maiden world designated One-Thirty-Eight (possibly along with Engerand and the Storm Hammers). It was there that Sarco fought against an Eldar phantom and was grievously injured.

>>49128020
Ullanor was actually an entire sector.

Urlakk Urg's Waaagh! was absolutely insanely massive, to the point where the gestalt consciousness of the horde made him more than a match for any one Primarch. At least, that's how it used to be, I heard Horus killed him alone in the new books.

>>49128020
Hawks are in

>>49129391
Not really. The hawk Vigilator / spectre operatives are the closest that exist at this point.

Doing the previous prompt for the Negators, since I was too slow for the other thread.

>Fists of Mars
Pre-Heresy: Nice stuff you got there, bet all that forge work equals great gains, let's lift.
M42: Die well, brothers.

>Warhawks
Pre-Heresy: Solid battle bros, not stuck up or weird, basically cool.
M42: Die well, brothers. Fuck Kashaln.

>Judgement Bringers
Pre-Heresy: I dunno man maybe you'd have a better chance at glory if your tactics were glorious.
M42: Subservient weaklings, keep tonguing [REDACTED]'s sack faggots.

>Silver Spears
Pre-Heresy: Dependable allies. They know their warrior's duty and perform it well.
M42: faggots, you fucking faggots fuck you, fuhfhhggadg fuck gsgs gsgfgdsh

>Eyes of the Warmaster
Pre-Heresy: Suspicious sneaky cowards.
M42: Called it.

>Angels of Light
Pre-Heresy: The least human of us. Their deeds are inglorious and callous.
M42: Try to die well, 'brothers.'

>Bloodhounds
Pre-Heresy: Hey, have you noticed that Balthasar is sort of a psychopath and he jumps at the chance to kill his brothers? Doesn't this worry anyone?
M42: No mere hound can be our equal.

>Paladins of Kor
Pre-Heresy: Protecting loyal worlds is a noble endeavor. We can't all be conquerors.
M42: At least you're trying. I wonder if you'd ever have had the sack to show your defiance when the Emperor had life in him.

>Knights Exemplar
Pre-Heresy: SOLID, heroes to the man.
M42: Die well, brothers.

>Behemoth Guard
Pre-Heresy: Tanks... are cool... I guess? Tanks are a hobby for men.
M42: Ew, sorcery cooties.

>Void Lords
Pre-Heresy: Spooky but efficient.
M42: Die well, brothers.

>Storm Hammers
Pre-Heresy: Solid battle bros, know how to beat face with the best.
M42: Die well, brothers.

>>49130113
>Sky Serpents
Pre-Heresy: Sorcery is really gay bruh, you should be less gay. Still, a learned warrior is a better warrior.
M42: Die well, brothers.

>Warp Raiders
Pre-Heresy: Sorcery is gay, but archeology is a worthy pursuit fitting of a man.
M42: They knew something. What did they know? Why won't they pick up the phone? fffff-

>Arms of Asura
Pre-Heresy: Unfortunate, but hey, it's not just looks that count, right?
M42: What the fuck are you even on about?

>Undying Scions
Pre-Heresy: Dreadbros are best bros.
M42: Dreadbros are best foes.

>Oathsworn
Pre-Heresy: They do good work.
M42: Die well, brothers.

>Second Sons
Pre-Heresy: Dependable soldiers. Sort of curt and solemn and stuff, but nobody's perfect.
M42: The Second Sons are long dead.

>Iron Hearts
Pre-Heresy: I don't get it, they seem cool. What's the problem?
M42: A friend in need is a friend indeed.

Sky Serpents focus on arts and the like as a way of sublimating a deeper violent nature, much like the Blood Angels.
Without Xun, they'd be way more Luna Wolves-ish. That's why they can't do the whole Angels of Light thing and why Graha'Nak sees them as kindred souls in denial.
Yes or no?

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The Heralds of Hadrianus were a successor chapter of the Undying Scions formed to watch over the Vigil world of Hadrianus, which long ago suffered a daemonic incursion near the end of the Second Crusade. For millennia they stood guard, watching for any signs of the forces of chaos that they might purge the neverborn once again. When at last a threat emerged, however, it did not come from any servant of the dark gods. From the webway emerged a warband of the Negators legion, seeking to find glory in hunting the Heralds' dreadnoughts.

>tbc

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Prompt: What was your Primarch's Gloriana Class Legion Flagship called? What special equipment was it modified with (i.e. the Conqueror of the World Eaters had the Ursus Claws, allowing easier boarding actions).

>>49131860
What the Negators found, however, was a prepared force. Somehow, the Heralds of Hadrianus had been forewarned of the attack and had fortified their positions against the invaders months ahead of time. Not ones to let such a setback get in the way of their glory, the Negators pushed ahead into the Heralds' position. It was only after they suffered tremendous casualties that the Negators called a retreat back into the webway.

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>>49132293
To a man, the Heralds of Hadrianus pursued the sons of Aodhán into the webway. If they could follow them back to their lair, the threat of the Negators would be ended once and for all. The Heralds' knowledge of the webway was lacking, however, and they soon became lost in that labyrinthine dimension. Drifting aimlessly, they eventually found themselves in a corner of the webway that had not been touched by Eldar or Human for millions of years. A shrine to a forgotten god stood atop a pillar of frozen flame, and when High Councilor Fahrenheit touched it, he and his chapter were forever changed...

>>49132107
Behemoth Guard:
Ex Profundis?
Call of Thuban?
Massive forge with enhanced orbit to surface armament.
Hmm...

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>>49131860
>>49132293
>>49132448
>Aodhán's face when

>>49133085
Trying to think of a good name...

>>49132107
Alexios' flagship is called the Brightest Star. It has specially redesigned arrays of drop pod launching tubes which allow it to drop many more marines at once than the average ship.

Balthasar's flagship is called the Executioner. Its auspex arrays are unparralleled throughout the galaxy, able to detect the movement of discrete individuals from high orbit.

Oramar's flagship is called the Webwalker, and its teleportarium arrays are vast and numerous.

>>49135290
Colossus? Leviathan?

Just throwing out big monster names here, since BEHEMOTH Guard.

I imagine that the Fists of Mars Gloriana is actually more like a fuckoff huge Ark Mechanicus. The Ares? The Child of Fire? The Red Star? The Hammer of Mars?

>>49130113
>faggots, you fucking faggots fuck you, fuhfhhggadg fuck gsgs gsgfgdsh

I don't usually expect that level of eloquence from you, Aodhan. I'm so proud that you've finally decided to follow my example and take up oratory.

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>>49135889
>chaos infighting intensifies

>>49131073
Sounds about right.

>>49135517
Detect individual movement from orbit...
>Riiiiiiiiiiight

Have you noticed you occassionally go way overboard in your fluff. Its mostly good but every now and again.

>>49135889
Kek

>>49133377
Would Aodhan even know?

it pleases me that this is still alive

>>49132107
The hawk gloriana is stormsword or brightroar. Fitted for "goes fast" and its main armaments are bay upon bay upon bay of lance batteries and hangers.

The amount of lances it carries is beyond ridiculous. Uniquely however it is not the primarchs flagship, or at least not his personal vessel. Captained instead by Lord-Commander of the 3rd division. Known as the "lightning lord".

>>49137253
>wait until he sees what we did with Enoch

>>49137204
Probably not.

He may have eventually heard about the failed assault but even that he wouldn't care about in the least.

I can imagine some Negators guy being all "LORD PRIMARCH please grant me a greater force, I will not fail again, I will bring glory and etc etc etc" and Aodhán stopped listening like fifteen minutes ago, he's nursing a terrible hangover and his coffee is cold, the only thing keeping him around is all the space cocaine he's snorting off Lelith's ass. Eventually he realizes this wack dude has been droning at him for the better part of an hour and he just tells him to do whatever he wants.

>>49137115
>Have you noticed you occassionally go way overboard in your fluff.
It's 40k, isn't that the point? Exaggeration to the point of absurdity?

>>49137342
There's nothing wrong with having big Hugo Boss coats.

>>49137398
Fine disregard the notion you could be anything less than perfect.

>>49137398
>>49137595
Anon's got a point though. All movement on the ground is a bit much. There are limits, this isn't Star Trek.
But don't be salty like a pretzel, anon.

>>49137867
Buuuut, you can track individual IR movements with modern satellites. So that's a thing.

>>49132107
The Paladins' Gloriana is the Warrior's Gauntlet. The ship is specially equipped for massive orbital bombardment, able to penetrate deep into a planet's crust in order to destroy bunkers, subterranean hives, and later even Necron Tombs.

>>49135683
Beast of Rhleyh?

>>49135683
>>49135683
Fists of Mars
>Thunderchild

Sky Serpents
>Smoke Jaguar
>Wrath of Heaven
>Oroboros
>Prometheus

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>>49132107
Tooting my own prompt.

Aodhán's flagship is the Gloriana class battleship Answerer, named so for its swift response to declarations of defiance or war against the Imperium. A blunt instrument of colossal size and power, the Answerer was modified to do one thing and one thing only - to battle the greatest and most dangerous of space-faring craft and emerge the victor. Forsaking volume of fire in favour of long-range, high-penetration lance batteries and turrets, the Answerer even sacrificed the majority of its bombardment cannons in order to accommodate additional torpedo launchers. Most prominently, the Answerer was modified with the immense prow-mounted Ryza-pattern Nova Cannon known as the Alexander Cannon. Vastly oversized, the weapon required specialized plasma macro-bombs fitted to its chamber, and was considered grossly inefficient even by most of Aodhán's more eccentric brothers. Its ability to shatter the largest and most threatening of vessels with a single shot, however, was rarely complained of.

The Answerer was heavily damaged in the aftermath of the Heresy, when Raydon Neratos ambushed Aodhán's fleet and committed to a near-suicidal ramming action against the vessel. Though the immense battleship was not destroyed, it would be some time before it was again seen in action, and the Alexander Cannon was damaged beyond repair. The weapon remained inoperable well into M34, though by M37 a sighting of the Answerer confirmed that it had been replaced by a dark matter projector of Commorrite origin boasting similar destructive power.

>>49138546
>Wrath of Heaven

I like this. You could go with Tianlong too.

Or Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli if you want to bring up the other side if their influence.

>>49137115
>Detect individual movement from orbit...
>Riiiiiiiiiiight

We can do this in real life, though, with modern technology.

>>49132107
I can't think of a name right now, but the Imperial (and later Undying) Scions' flagship was equipped with many drop pod bays and boarding torpedoes to better enable its marines to engage their foes in close combat more easily. In addition to these was a specialized teleportarium that bathed its target destination in opaque cybermist that the marines' helmets were programmed to see through perfectly.

>>49140704
How about Greystoke for a name?

>>49138546
Id call the FoM vessel something like Infernus or Ignus.

I thought i posted about the hawk one, but cant seem to find it so in summary.

Is designed for goes fast (as much as a colossal beast like that can be) and lances. Lances. And more lances. Oh and the last thing was lances. Did i mention the extreme amount of lances.


Lances.

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My bloodhound story grows, though it's still incomplete.

http://pastebin.com/9ZaRP90q

>>49140746
I like it.

>>49138788
That's pretty awesome.

>>49139408
Yeah, one of those issues where I don't want everything to be illegible in English, so probably Wrath of Heaven for the flagship and perhaps Tianlong being the name of the ship Hadbaal is given.
That or the Qianlong.

>>49143182
Tangent:
I'm imagining that Sky Serpents ships tend to have upgraded battle cogitators.
The Strategium on the Wrath of Heaven, for example, houses thousands upon thousands of potent data djinn, which can be unleashed through vox transmissions into enemy ships. These djinn can jam enemy communication or sensors, or even disable systems.

Similarly, the Astropathic relay stations are often augmented to allow Legion Librarians to intercept and interfere with Astropathic communication.

Essentially, it's an ECW suite. Xun is the sort to keep his ships pretty balanced in capability, but he's a sucker for information warfare tools. He also upgrades speed, but not to the same extent as the Warhawks. (Even so, races are rumored to have occurred.)

>>49143182
>>49143735
Xun, any comments on Sky Serpent activity at Ullanor?
>>49128020

>>49144086
There's a few distinct possibilities, depending on how people were spread out and what the Warmaster was up to at the time, since he's already plotting the heresy by this point, right?

I can see the Warmaster having Xun by his side, the legions are close, and I imagine the Eyes fight best when they have a hammer to work with, though Enoch might do that better.

The Serpents could also be deployed with the Warhawks, Behemoth Guard, or Warp Raiders. With the Warp Raiders, the Serpents would raise the Storm, and the Warp Raiders would sweep in. I'm thinking against Orkz, in a joint setting where there are other, even faster legions, and Orkz aren't too susceptible to clever ploys, the Serpents are in the odd position of falling back on that core of brutality, their red thirst.

Oramar might use this time to suggest the chaos deal to Xun, as might the Warmaster, but in either case it would be nothing definite.
I don't think Oramar should be off on his own during this campaign, though, since this is a perfect time for people to notice that he's up to some funky things.

The other option is that the Sky Serpents are deployed alongside a more static or 'heavy' legion, like the Judgement Bringers or the Behemoth Guard, and it's the Sky Serpents doing their usual feints to draw the orkz into a position to be crushed. It really depends on who the Warmaster wants Xun to be talking to.

>>49144331
>>49144086
>>49128020

Also, in the OU I'm seeing 3 primarchs in system for the actual campaign on the Ullanor system, with 14 coming for the triumph.

>>49128747
To be a pain in the ass about precise timing, Nikea was in the works before Ullanor, as indicated by the fact that Moritarion already knew about it.
But I think Ullanor is a perfect time for people to see just how far Oramar has gone and shake up his buddies.

>>49144331
(And of course, as always, assassination and sabotage are the constant tools of the Sky Serpents. But I think it'd be interesting for the campaign to really draw out their suppressed bloodlust. So between Oramar acting all weird, the Emperor going back to Terra, and Ullanor stirring up savage and atavistic behaviors long buried, the Sky Serpents enter M31 deeply shaken. In some ways, it shields their psyche from what is to come, since they're already uncertain, but it also sets them up to really let that rage out and to really delve into the Emperor as deity when the time comes.)

>>49143735
EW, Goes fast, fighter bays, and lances.

PERFECT.

Also, would anyone have any issue with me writing in an Abyss class ship for the Hawks, I was thinking of setting up a mobile "homebase" either in 30k or 40k timeline.

>>49144431
(Which, in part, is why the heresy doesn't break Xun as it does Alexios. The heresy brought focus and forced answers to questions Xun was dealing within the final years of the crusade. But it's also why Xun wants that first crusade and why he founds his empire.)

>>49144470
>EW, Goes faster...
Hmm?

>Abyss Class
Nah, I think it makes sense that an Abyss class analogue was in production, particularly with guys like Raydon. I imagine Graha'Nak would want one too, since the Void God can't be everywhere at once. Seems his style.

Behemoth Guard, too.

Might be that there was a public collaboration and a first wave of ~5 Abyss analogues were produced:
Warhawks
Void Lords
Behemoth Guard
Sky Serpents
Bloodhounds?
And a similar Ark Mechanicum for the Fists of Mars.
Thing is, the loyalist ships are plagued by mechanical difficulties, later corrected, but not in time for critical battles during the heresy due to the machinations of the Warmaster.

>>49144431
New to these threads, but from what i've read so far.

Xun and the sky serpents are masters of mobile warfare (constant feints, encirclement), seem to be pioneers in the fields of psykers, espionage, and electronic warfare. As well as have a tendency to be sneaky with assassination and sabotage BUT ALSO have a brutal efficiency that has been linked multiple times to the Luna Wolves, who were arguably the best canon legion.

So what can't these guys do? They even seem reasonable and like to "debate".

I thought they might be the generalist marines, but im pretty sure the Oathsworn would be that. So it seems like not only do these guys have a finger in every pie, but they are at the forefront.

Am I wrong?

>>49144562
EW = Electronic Warfare.
Not eww as in icky.

>>49144562
>public collaboration
See this was the issue I ran into thinking out it.
It doesnt make sense (to me) to have built lots of them, being so resource intensive.

But at the same time, its hardly fair or reasonable, to be like "I WANT ONE YOU CANT HAVE ONE".

Because even making as you say 5, would be a colossal investment on wartime resources even for the Imperium. And post-heresy they are straight up outside the reach of pretty much everyone.

I figured its probably better for no-one to have them if we can't figure out a good way to write it. Because as you say, the FoM and Void Lords would probably be in the running to recieve the 1 or 2 the Imperium can actually pump out.

>>49144582
When you put it like that they do sound pretty everywhere.

I think though, they are more like jack of all trades master of none in most of those regards. Even as wizardry goes, Xun isn't top dog. He is just the best who stays loyal.

>>49144582
That's a pretty fair question. The connection with the Luna Wolves is in the savagery of the assault, and ideally it's a bit of a flaw, closer in nature to the red thirst of the Blood Angels.
Their sneakiness leads them to be paranoid post heresy, since they see their own plans everywhere.

They have a hard time with sieges and point defense. An example might be the battle of Catachan, where they destroy a fortress by simply doing a massive orbital strike after bringing down the orbital defenses through subterfuge.

Ideally they'd come across as a legion that's pretty damn capable, in part because they're driven to cerebral pursuits by their inner beast.
They're not as fast as the really, really fast legions, they're not as sneaky as the Warmaster, nor are they as tech savvy as the Fists. If they went with their guts, they'd be akin of to the Space Wolves, and the old legion still retains bits of that, but Xun really pushes them to be more, and they're not quite comfortable with the howling inside, so they're constantly driven towards the heights of humanity.
(Also, I figured mobile war goes hand in hand with information warfare.)

But yeah, they're mobile generalists, their main gig is messing with your head, best way to do that is by keeping a few steps ahead. And when they hit, it's with the savagery they try so hard to control. They're bad at sieges and defense.

Hope that helps. That or I've got them doing too much.

>>49144647
Well, in canon, the Imperium makes 3 for Lorgar alone, in secret, so I think 5, or even 10 is reasonable.

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>>49144582
>what can't these guys do
This is a good question to bring up, not just in regard to the Sky Serpents, but in regard to all the legions. Understanding something's flaws can go a long way in helping you understand the thing in general.

PROMPT: What CAN'T your Legion do?

The Bloodhounds are not effective peacemakers, both in practice and in temperament. They prefer to exterminate their foes completely rather than enforce surrender. Their extremely cruel tactics leave enemies who are not exactly open to diplomacy either.

The Angels of Light loathe sorcery of most kinds. Those with the psyker gene are given to the Abbeys to serve as astropaths, lexicographers, and occasionally Abbot commanders.

The Warp Raiders made for inconstant allies before their censure, and have no friends in the universe afterward except for occasional short-term alliances. Their tendency to keep to obscure and shifting tactical objectives frustrates most who fight alongside them.

>>49144720
>3 for Lorgar alone,
I thought Horus diverted dark mech to build them in secret. My assumption being that that would have had a significant flowon effect later but "suddenly heresy" so that never gets explored because of more serious things going down. (I also thought there was only 2)

Could be wrong though, as I said it was my assumption.

My concern is that if they exist in any significant number (and from what ive read of them, 5-10 is significant) then they could change the nature of the settings navy conflicts.

Hence why I thought, even 1 was reason enough to vet the idea first.

Happy to be wrong though.

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>>49132107
I wrote a bit of an idea about the Warmaster's flagship as a point of comparison with the Void Lord's Space Hulk in >>49141525

>Gaspar watched as the hololithic displays began to render their long range scans. "That can't be right..." Gaspar said, his eyes memorizing every detail. If the scale of the display was correct, the ship entering the system was absolutely massive. On Terra, Gaspar had once seen REDACTED's warship, The All-Seeing-Eye, hang like a jealous brother next to the moon. That ship had been more space station than ship, and even it would be dwarfed in comparison to the Space Hulk entering the system.

I think it'd be more of a central command station than a battleship, with massive cogitation centers where intelligence officers are constantly combing through data, re-education and interrogation chambers for Imperial dissidents and captives, etc. Similar to Rogal Dorn's Phalanx in scale and construction but put to a very different purpose.

>>49137342
Hey waitaminute is this guy being serious

>>49144756
I agree. Very good question.

>>49144720
While I don't have an issue with the Serpents, it might be worth trying to refine their image abit. I only say this because I'd never really considered them generalists until this post.

>>49144756
>What cant they do
1. Hold territory, well of course they can garrison a joint, but they lack the numbers and equipment to conduct static defence operations. This is why they maintain fleets as their base of operations. When they do have to hold ground, its usually airfields.

2. Attack strongpoints. As above, they lack the numbers primarily. They don't utilise much armour, it is considered a Divisional asset, so only the highest commanders in the legion can authorise their deployment. When they DO, they rely on ground attack craft. Like extremely. In the orbat i've written up for them, gunships are their equivalent of rhinos or razorbacks.

3. Sustain logistic lines. Another reason they work out of a fleet, they leave recruitment outposts behind but otherwise the Sabre company fleets are entirely independent and autonomous.
>Sabre companies are approximately 50-60 man strong.

4. Build things. - One of the defining traits of how Raydon views Alexios is that he is almost envious of his ability to build and maintain a kingdom. At the same time, he is content with his lot in life, and actually doesn't think that its an Astartes (or Primarchs) job to rule, so its abit paradoxical. This has a flow on effect to the Legion itself in that they look down on Astartes who don't stick to their purpose.

5. Be personable. Raydon in particular, though it affects the Hawk genetic mentality and culture. They are fiercely loyal to their mates but otherwise indifferent, and outright rude to those who they don't deem respectable. I guess the typical fantasy dwarf would be a good comparison to how I see them acting with others.

6. Religion. They don't buy into any of it, and frown upon those who do.

Theres more but out of room

>>49128020
Almost all of those names are gay.

>>49145024
We've still been talking about the Judgement Bringers a bit so they might have deviated a bit from what you remember. That said I think they've remained fairly true to form.

They've got a WW2 fascist/nazi vibe going, very Hugo Boss aesthetic
They're fiercely loyal to the Emperor, and then to the Warmaster, because of their ideological need for a despotic master. Enoch becomes the Warmaster's right hand after the Heresy.
They prefer to shell the fuck out of the enemy with artillery and long range tanks before mopping up with bolter and chainsword.

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Daily reminder pic related is canon

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>>49145575

>>49144756
>What CAN'T your Legion do?

Mind bullets.

For real though, the Negators suck at building things and holding entrenched positions. It's just not part of their modus operandi to hide behind big walls and take potshots. Their Primarch's first war was a guerilla war and this has really impacted how they fight - they strike surgically, with decisive force. Additionally, they just do not like protracted, monotonous battles. Negators enjoy the rush of a fantastic struggle against a great beast or an adept opponent, but they hate cutting through swathes of unworthy dross. It's boring.

The severe lack of techmarines in the Legion is a big part of why so much of their stuff is looted from fallen enemies.

>>49145037
Other faults. More IRT Raydon himself, but much of it flows on to the legion.

7. Strategy and leadership. This is one that governs how the Legion is run. Raydon does not particularly like being a leader, he commands his legion because it is his duty, not out of any love of it. He does however, enjoy leading his sons in battle.

2 major things are derived from this. The first is that, Raydon leads a Sabre Company in the same way that every Hawk commander does. This means that he delegates much of the running of the Legion to various other staff.

Including: A herald (his voice), his Vigilator Primus (his eyes), a Legion High-Coordinator (Host Marshal), Legion 2IC, his own ships XO, as well as a Strike Captain, Master of Descent, and Knight-Protector. Each an expert in a particular field of war. As well as the usual, Apothecary General, Forge Lord, and Chief Librarian.

The other derivative, is that Hawk leaders are typically do'ers, inspiring through action rather than oratory skills or logistical mastery. As always, exceptions exist (and they often find their way into the Primarchs inner circle)

8. Ceremony.
The Legion is not good at being flashy or being on display in general. They don't hand out awards in a traditional sense, instead tattooing themselves with symbols that represent those valiant foes they have slain, and the valiant brothers they fought beside. Most deeds themselves are recounted in great sagas, recounted by the Battle Brothers comrades. (Its poor form to recite a saga of your own).

9. Psykers.
While the Primarch spoke in favour of librarians at Nikaea, and utilised them in the legion, they are not numerous or noteworthy in any particular regard. Because of how the legion is divided, and how small it is. This means that many if not most battle brothers had never even fought beside one of the Legions Librarians.

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>The Calixian Crusade

Timeframe: Mid Great Crusade Period.

Imperial Belligerents: The Crimson Warhawks Legion, the Storm Hammers Legion, the Negators Legion, the Second Sons Legion, the Warp Raiders Legion.

Prominent Campaigns: The Perun Campaign, the Sigurd Campaign, the Scintilla Campaign, the Morwen Campaign.

The Calixian Crusade was one of the first campaigns of the Great Crusade to be fought in the furthest reaches of Segmentum Obscurus. The crusade was named as such for its beginnings in the Calixis Sector, though it expanded further into the surrounding regions of space, and was launched in order to wrest control of these sectors from the grasp of a despicable alien alliance known simply as a the Vath. To other species, the area of space was known simply as 'The Eatery', and was famous for exporting human meat for consumption by xenos that considered it a delicacy. The enslaved humans that stocked the Vath's larders and filled most of their armies were for the most part enthralled by thousands of years of brutal indoctrination into thinking of themselves as mere fodder for the sustenance and profit of their masters.

It was at first believed that the Vath were a Slaughth empire, as these foul xenos made up the bulk of the dominion's ruling class, but it soon became clear that the true masters of the realm were a small coven of powerful psychic aliens known simply as the Eaters of Men, who the Slaugth seemed to revere almost as gods.

The Calixian Crusade is notable for being fought primarily in the void, as the xenos overlords of the Vath preferred to rule from orbital emplacements and hidden void-fortresses strewn throughout their domains.

>(tbc)

>>49147032
What kind of numbers are you thinking for each legion to contribute

Redux of last thread: what Primarchs did your legion love and hate, and why?

>>49147146
Not sure, but large amounts. This is a multi-sector endeavor against a xenos threat most foul. The Primarchs of the attendant Legions are there for the majority of the campaign.

I'm thinking the Second Sons do a lot of the work securing and reinforcing these worlds, leading to their concentrated presence in the area that has persisted to this day. The Warhawks, being one of the smaller Legions, might be there in their entirety. The Warp Raiders start off with the smallest attendant force but, as Oramar becomes increasingly interested in all the arcane shit these aliens have lying around, he starts pulling in more and more reinforcements to secure as many worlds as possible, because he's afraid Engerand and Saul are just gonna smash everything.

One thing I was considering is that Raydon and Aodhan's flagships are both separated from the front early on, and they have to wage an isolated insurgency campaign somewhere in the Josian Reach to rally the human populations there and take some of the vital breadbasket worlds of the region. Engerand takes command of the rest of their Legions in the meantime, which is fine with the Negators, especially the Old Legion, who are used to his sort of tactics, but the Warhawks chafe under the Primarch's much more hands-on approach to leadership.

>>49147318
see
>>49130113
>>49130126

I'll do one for Anshul and the Arms of Asura next.

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>>49147639
One thing to note with the Hawks is that their efficiency doesn't actually rise dramatically with more of them deployed.

Ill attach the orbat I made up, its an old one so a few changes but its largely correct.

They typically deploy in strike battalions and operate in company size or lower.

For a huge campaign, I guess they might deploy a division or 2, which would be about 9000 troops and the associated fleet & support staff.

>>49127962
I hope that I could contribute, I'm a massive lore fag but I can't write shit in english...

>>49147883
That's some good shit to know. Also a nice chart.

So I guess if I go with the cut off scenario, Raydon would only have the equivalent of one or two companies with him?

>>49148089
Don't worry about it, dude. Just suggest ideas you think are cool.

>>49144582
>>49144720
Any other thoughts on this?

>>49144582
I think the Oathsworn, while pretty generalist, are actually known for their mass-scale deployments and prolific use of biomancy/apothecaries. They have by far the best field medics (which, aside from their super stable geneseed, is probably one of the big factors in their huge Legion numbers) and are the most skilled in the use of viral weaponry.

>>49144582
>>49144680
So let's refine this:
Sky Serpents are indeed meant to be pretty Ultramarine-ish, the big difference between them is the cultural antecedents. And how they fight.

This is mostly due to Xun's influence.
Xun lands on a bronze age world.
So space warring states period space China.
He gets trained by space Confucius and in trying to figure out how to do better astrology, he accidentally stumbles on to physics.
>Holy shit, I can understand the universe! Math is awesome!
So when the Emperor comes, Xun sees him as the embodiment of the will of Heaven and just expands his Bronze Age empire into space.
Space Confucians, if you will.
He also has a million questions about how everything works. That's why he is so strongly behind the Librarius, and why he tinkers. He's a guy who loves systems and finding the simple truth in complex behaviors. On another world, he'd be a warlord like the Lion, but his home world remakes him and he remakes his legion.

The Arms of Asura's social links.

>>49130113
>Fists of Mars
Pre-Heresy: The natural philosophies are an excellent pursuit, and the craftsman's arts a wonderful meditative tool. Never presume that the blacksmith is as thick or inflexible as the skin of his palms.
M42: Their obsession with the material has blinded them to the truth that crouches beyond the lie. We must show them the way.

>Warhawks
Pre-Heresy: The lightest touch can carry the greatest force. They know this well.
M42: Vengeance is the way of fools.

>Judgement Bringers
Pre-Heresy: Suffering for the sake of suffering is a fool's path.
M42: See above.

>Silver Spears
Pre-Heresy: There is art in what they do, but their vanity withholds them from true greatness.
M42: Perhaps they will never learn.

>Eyes of the Warmaster
Pre-Heresy: Caution is a virtue.
M42: If you seek to parlay with the Great Annihilator, only ash awaits you.

>Angels of Light
Pre-Heresy: You will be watching us carefully? Most excellent, we will ensure that your back is covered also.
M42: They have become the living embodiment of the great deception; they have even begun to tell lies of their own. They can no longer be tolerated.

>Bloodhounds
Pre-Heresy: Perhaps your inner beast would not trouble you so if you weren't so quick to indulge it.
M42: As implements of the Great Annihilator they are efficient, if unsavory.

>>49149803
>Legion before Xun
Let's take the 1st Chapter Storm Wolves and the Legion master Baqar Hadbaal
Maneuver warfare. The legion always tries to fight on their terms, using superior mobility to achieve a local advantage and wipe out the enemy, and then leverage this breakthrough into a new advantage.
They're also pretty blood-drenched.
They focus all of their violence on a single point, which is the similarity to the Luna Wolves style, though perhaps Space Wolves are a better analogue.
They circle at the edge of the firelight before a tracking a gap with a primal fury.
That's the only moment that they drop their barrier and allow the red thirst to come to the fore.
They don't lay siege. They come, they kill, they move on to the next world. They don't defend, they withdraw and assault again.

They're already disciplined because they are trying to keep the red thirst under wraps, they're more like Blood Angels, not World Eaters.
Xun just teaches them to be kings and shows them new ways to fight smarter.

>>49149983
>Paladins of Kor
Pre-Heresy: We share the duty of protecting and enlightening the worlds of our Father's Imperium. If only he would give our suggestions some thought...
M42: Thank you for opening your borders to the truth, brother. It is a step forward for us all.

>Knights Exemplar
Pre-Heresy: There are few kinder than Klaus, and few more inspiring than his sons.
M42: Their fate is a great shame.

>Behemoth Guard
Pre-Heresy: Mastery of the body is where mastery of the mind begins. Very good.
M42: Why yes, our libraries are always open.

>Void Lords
Pre-Heresy: There must be a line between man and beast somewhere.
M42: Fear is an illusion, as is any power Graha'nak's sons wield.

>Storm Hammers
Pre-Heresy: The dedication of Engerand and his Legion is an example to us all.
M42: If only their dedication was to a worthy cause.

>Sky Serpents
Pre-Heresy: Sit down, brother, let us discuss these urges that trouble you so. The gardens of Ravana are most agreeable this time of year.
M42: Come now, you know we're right. Just admit it.

>Warp Raiders
Pre-Heresy: Yes, these inscriptions ARE quite fascinating...
M42: We shall never blame you for what is in your nature.

>Negators
Pre-Heresy: A most enjoyable tale, brother, though I can't help but feel that the subject matter is becoming a little repetitive...
M42: Even in exile, you will not acknowledge the truth?

>Undying Scions
Pre-Heresy: The mind is of its own domain. You do not need flesh and blood to be uplifted by wisdom.
M42: All the time in the world and nothing to show for it.

>Oathsworn
Pre-Heresy: A fellow scholar is always welcome in these halls.
M42: It was an unfortunate necessity, brothers.

>Second Sons
Pre-Heresy: Their bodies may waste away, but their minds remain able.
M42: Their devotion to the Great Annihilator is true and pure, but they know nothing of its mysteries.

>Iron Hearts
Pre-Heresy: A pity that I could not have met him.
M42: Strength is found in the mind, not the heart.

>>49150044
>>49144756

So simple answer they can't:
Static battle
Worry about civilian casualties in an active warzone (like really, don't get in their way)
Into honesty, everything is on a need to know basis--information is victory, guard it well


They obsess over the arts and sciences as a way of avoiding and controlling the beast within.
And, to their credit, they're damn good at it, in part because astartes are designed to excell in all things.
They're supposed to feel like Byronic heroes. I suppose they're our Spess vampires.

>>49149406
And gene-craft. I bet they do stuff like Ogryn Charionites, too.

So I was thinking.

>The Annihilator Chorus
Though Anshul's children were much maligned by many of the Primarch's more raucous brothers as glorified architects and peace-loving bohemians, the Legion saw its share of combat against some of the most implacable foes the galaxy had to offer. Defending the Imperium's borders was no simple task, as the ascendance of mankind was a sore omen for the many xeno races of the galaxy. There were those that Anshul was able to fend off through diplomacy, but, more often than not, those that bared their fangs at mankind were creatures of singular cruelty and malice, and they would not be content until humanity was either enslaved beneath their feet or reduced to a mere stain on the face of history.

Barbaric orks were the most prolific race to rail against the growing Imperium, but other, altogether stranger and crueler beings assaulted mankind's worlds, some in such number that the Arms of Asura found their staunch refusal to use weapons of inhuman nature (rad-weapons, phosphex, etc - these arms often obliterated the very worlds the Arms of Asura were tasked with protecting) was costing them dearly.

The make up for this military shortcoming, the Legion turned to the surplus of psykers counted among their number. Being too prolific with their encouragement of psychic talent was frowned upon in those days, and Anshul was aware of the callous eye with which the Emperor watched his misshapen son, but risking such imperilment was deemed a requirement to ensure the safety of the Imperium, and the Legion laid down the foundations for what would become their emblematic Annihilator Choruses.

Almost all Arms of Asura initiates, after the introduction of Anshul's geneseed into their physiology, demonstrated some level of psychic ability, but only a select few could peer deeply into the Warp.

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>>49152168
The Annihilator program selected those among the standard level of psyker expertise with talents that seemed focused toward the manipulation of energy, and put these Marines through a rigorous program of mental conditioning, meditative training, and in some cases clandestine surgical modifications. The results were teams of battle psykers with extremely specific, extremely destructive abilities.

Primarily pyromancers and telekinetics, these Marines were referred to as Theurgist Annihilators, and organized into small teams designated as Choruses. Their talents were first applied to great effect during the Charybdis Incursion, where they were used in conjunction with conventional arms to bring cleansing destruction on par with any rad armaments or phosphex bombardments. The Annihilator Choruses were trained to project death both as individuals and to synchronize their psychic voices into a combined effort, unleashing truly spectacular feats of devastating psychic power.

>>49152201
I really like this. I'm imagining them with haloes and mandilions of warp flame, like you see in old Buddhist sculptures.

>>49150166
Actually. In that vein, I think it serves as a good way to differentiate the Serpents and the Asurans. Until after the heresy, when Xun really gets into demonology, the legion's sorcery is of a comparatively limited nature, akin to Chogorian stormseers. Their displays of Fulgurite powers are impressive, they've got some skill with divination, and they've got a fair few utility abilities, but fundamentally, they keep it limited because they're trying to build a systematic understanding using arcane math. It doesn't quite work, as well as they would like, but it does protect them from some things at the cost of the sorts of things the Asura or Warp Raiders are capable of.

Does this, in conjunction with the other limitations sound about right?

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Bump while I write something.

>>49147032
>>49147639
This is neat. Who is supreme commander of the theater? Saul Sheridan? Engerand?

What sort of sorcerous arts do the Vath employ that interests Oramar so much?

>>49153804
>>49154057
Can I get some feedback on all this:

>>49149803

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>>49154230
It's a good origin story that makes a lot of sense for who Xun becomes.

Maybe tell us more about that bronze age world, which I assume is Tepectitlan? What kind of terrain does it have? Does Xun take part in the warring states nature of the planet is he more like a secluded shaolin monk? If the terrain is like pic related that could go a long way in explaining his tactics.

Any comments on >>49141525 ?

>>49154487
Yeah, it's Tepectitlan. The area where Xun comes down was a fertile limestone plain.carved into wide valleys and more narrow canyons by a few rivers which flood seasonally. (and the typical South East Asian Guanlin/Thailand coast karst topography.) There's also an assload of caves, ala Yucatan cenotes.
So rich alluvial plains, perfect for agriculture.

Xun is very much a part of the politics of the period, He gets tutored in the ways of governance by Tepectitlan's equivalent of Confucius thus is raised in a court setting. One of the kings selects him as a successor, but a few royal cousins get pissy because they're out of the line of succession and they rebel just as Xun takes the throne, teaming up with some of the neighboring kingdoms to do so.

As a result, Xun goes and conquers the region using the terrain to his advantage. He's outnumbered, massively, and so uses the hilly terrain to force engagements on his terms and to maneuver effectively to flank the enemy army.
He also makes use of espionage, to disrupt enemy movement and supply lines.

>>49154882
>karst topography
I have such a geology nerd boner right now

I want to write more fluff for the Scions, but I can't think of what needs to be done. Anyone have any ideas?

The Bloodlands of Xeric-Gobi

Ancient Terra is a world transformed. Washed in the Warp and made the plaything of daemons, gods and transhumans, whole swathes of the planet have been given over to the Gods to remake as they will, and Khorne’s mightiest champion Doombreed, once of Terra itself in the forgotten ages returned home to make a place worthy of his God. His ancestral homelands, the Xeric Grasslands and the Gobi tox-wastes were converted into as great open arena, empty plains where armies can drown the red grass in blood. There, vast armies of Daemons, Space Marines and Traitors endlessly crash in bitter combat, shedding blood for their patron god and hoping to attract the attention of Doombreed Himself. Doombreed only deigns to attend the greatest and most bloody of battles, and for those armies that win these fights he bestows the favour and blessings of Khorne. Any Warrior band who truly wishes to earn the blessings of the Blood God come to Terra, to the Bloodlands and fight on, hoping to earn Khorne’s blessings through Doombreed.

>>49155498
Write more pre-dreadnought stuff for variety.

>>49154230
It sounds better to me as confucion ultramarines than before, so I think its good.

>>49154057
Good suggestions. Both are pretty valid.

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Bloodhounds

>Crimson Warhawks
Pre-heresy: Brother! Comrade! Let us hunt together as one pack, and let us feast on the blood of the Emperor's enemies!
Post-Heresy: There is no more worthy prey in the whole of the galaxy. The arrival of one of their hunting packs is a great blessing of the Blood God.

>Fists of Mars
Pre-Heresy: Leave the tinkering to lesser beings, brother. We are warriors! Still, I cannot deny the usefulness of your war marchines.
Post-Heresy: STOP HIDING IN YOUR METAL BAWKSES AND FIGHT ME

>Storm Hammers
Pre-Heresy: Ha! Now these men know how to fight! Clash with the enemy head-on, and beat them with the sheer strength of your swordarm.
Post-Heresy: MAIN! KILL! BURN!

>Void Lords
Pre-Heresy: Our father told us to know no fear, and in this Graha'nak is gloriously defiant. The beast of the void knows fear well, and it is his greatest weapon.
Post-Heresy: Come, brother! See if you can face a foe who does not balk at shadows! I shall make a cloak from your pelts!

>Angels of Light
Pre-Heresy: Coward! I have not seen you raise a weapon in centuries! You shame the honorable warriors who serve beneath you
Post-Heresy: MAIM! KILL! BURN!

>Sky Serpents
Pre-Heresy: The Beast within is our greatest strength, it is the fire which burns in the heart of men! You deny it to the detriment of all mankind, brother! Leave your humanity behind, and join me in howling at the moon!
Post-Heresy: MAIM! KILL! BURN!

>Undying Scions
Pre-Dreadnought: My best and closest friend, my closest confidant, my comrade in battle. Fighting beside you gets my blood flowing.
Post-Dreadnought: The greatest among us is now the least. Get this monstrosity out of my sight before I tear it asunder.
Post-Heresy: MAIM! KILL! BURN!

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>>49156017

>Knights Exemplar
Pre-Heresy: My brothers will never look up to me as they look up to Klaus, and this shames me. I strive to follow his example of perfection, but I know I can never reach it. Will you teach me that thing you did with your pommel?
Post-Heresy: I KILLED ONE! I SHALL HANG THIS BLADE IN THE HUNTING LODGE FOR ALL TIME!

>Warp Raiders
Pre-Heresy: Foul witches! They use dark sorceries and consort with foul xenos. They should be purged as the Iron Hearts were. Unleash me, and Azrimuth shall be naught but ash!
Post-Heresy: SLAUGHTER THEM ALL!

>Paladins of Kor
Pre-Heresy: You are too soft, too open to weaknesses of the spirit, and it will be your downfall.
Post-Heresy: Told you so.

>Oathsworn
Pre-Heresy: We cannot trust the maintenance of our genetic destinies to these necromantic madmen! The Warmaster speaks truly, these men cannot be trusted.
Post-Heresy: Bring me the genomancers, I have recovered new slaves for fleshcrop.

>Eyes of the Warmaster
Pre-Heresy: What is thy bidding, my master?
Post-Heresy: What is thy bidding, my master?

>Silver Spears
Pre-Heresy: I invited them to hunt with me and the vainglorious fools ponced around like they were at some sort of ballet. Embarrassing.
Post-Heresy: I bet I can kill more of our brothers than you can, you pompous tit. Loser has to scrub the nurglite pits of sudmerica for a hundred years.

>Judgement Bringers
Pre-Heresy: You're not even fighting them yourselves! What is this artillery bullshit? FACE YOUR ENEMY, YOU COWARD!
Post-Heresy: I serve the Warmaster loyally but this is getting ridiculous, brother. Have a mind of your own.

>Second Sons
Pre-Heresy: Fighting alongside them is to witness glorious destruction. We leave burned husks in our wake, but they leave nothing at all. Saul balks at my cruelty but he is still a close friend.
Post-Heresy: dude tone it down jeez

>>49154057
I'm thinking Saul.

Oramar would be interested in Slaugth tech, much of which is sorcerous, but also in a wide variety of psychoactive ruins that litter the Calixis Sector. As the campaign drags on it would become clear that the Vath have their vassals working to unearth the remnants of an ancient, highly sorcerous race that once ruled the sector.

>>49156198
>Iron Hearts
Pre-Heresy: PURGE THE MUTANT!
Post-Heresy: WARMASTER WHY WON'T YOU LET ME PURGE THE MUTANT?

>Behemoth Guard
Pre-Heresy: Madmen and fiends. Their devices are useful but they ride the line of heresy. If they step too far, we may have to purge them too.
Post-Heresy: TECHNO-MUTANT FREAKS! SORCEROUS WITCHES! I SHOULD HAVE PURGED YOU WHEN I HAD THE CHANCE

>Arms of Asura
Pre-Heresy: These foul sorcerors are nearly as bad as the Warp Raiders. Let me purge them, father, before they turn just as insane as Oramar.
Post-Heresy: SORCERORS AND HERETICS REEEEEEE

>Negators
Pre-Heresy: Glorious warriors, I am gladdened whenever I am called to fight beside them, as I know the fighting will be worthy.
Post-Heresy:Glorious warriors, I am gladdened whenever I am called to fight beside them, as I know the fighting will be worthy.

>>49155676
Alright, will do.

Before the rediscovery of Sarco Funerus, the Imperial Scions were very much a jack-of-all-trades legion, its astartes an example to all of the versatility of the space marine legions. When the Emperor was reunited with his son on Amaranth, Sarco was quick to reorganize his legion to fit his more esoteric fighting style. Many of his finest Amaranthine warriors were given the honor of joining him among the stars in the great crusade, and before long they outnumbered the original terrans. This cultural shift disconcerted the terran marines, but Sarco ignored their grievances when they were brought to his attention, more interested in gaining glory in the crusade.

Void Lords
>>49156017
We need to make that "Our father told us to know no fear, and in this Graha'nak is gloriously defiant. The beast of the void knows fear well, and it is his greatest weapon" into either an in universe Balthasar quote or a Void Lords aphorism.

>Bloodhounds
Pre-Heresy: I thought we were going to hunt. Why do you have a bugle? Why are we doing this? This is really dumb.
Post-Heresy: I'll show you what a real hunt is like. I will harry you from Espandor to Terra, to the fires of hell itself.

>Crimson Warhawks
Pre-Heresy: FULL SPEED AHEAD BROTHERS!! WE STRIKE FROM THE SHADOWS!
Post-Heresy: It's always nice when you join us on campaign.

>Fists
Pre-Heresy: Dependable warriors, if losing out on something critically human.
Post-Heresy: They have indeed lost their humanity, but they have faced the horrors of the warp and endured. I respect that.

>Spears
Pre-Heresy: A warrior has no due. We only have what we tear from the cold universe.
Post-Heresy: Hide in your warp domain. I am coming for you.

>Warp Raiders
Pre-Heresy: I really wish Oramar would stop lecturing about things he's dug up and just give me one of those banshee masks.
Post-Heresy: I see a reflection of myself in you, brother, cast adrift as we are on the strange tides of the warp. Unfortunately for you, the Emperor guides my path. Though I walk in darkness, I am eternally in his light. Allow me to illuminate you.

>>49157257
>Storm Hammers
Pre-Heresy: Warriors we can count on.
Post-Heresy: Come away with us, brothers. You rot away in your stormy kingdom, we will teach you to be the thunder again.

>Judgement Bringers
Pre-Heresy: Earthbound fools.
Post-Heresy: Such rigid order, so incongruous in chaos. To your huddled masses, we bring the Emperor's peace and the gift of terror. We bring salvation to your people in the roar of orbital lances and in the flayed corpses. You rule them through the illusion of fear. We liberate them with the truth of fear. This is why we recruit from your worlds so often, brother.

>The Oathsworn
Pre-Heresy: You have the power to create and yet you waste your time on Luna?
Post-Heresy: So remember when I said that gene-tech was boring and a waste of time? Mind making some of those dragons?

>>49156219
Does Oramar need sorcery to be involved to rock up?

I mean, its still great crusade era, surely if he was ordered to go to a place and do things he would do it, or was he so down right insubordinate that could have been charged for treason even before the heresy?

Either way, I'd probably say Engerand. For three reasons,
1. we want to set him up as a successful commander (he is after all the #1 replacement for Warmaster after Klaus)

2. His tendency for act first, question later. And his aggressive leadership style allows for us to write about situations other more reasonable Primarch might not have found themselves in.

3. Saul is first and foremost a soldier in my mind. And a professional like that would be best served as a 2IC or XO for a brash but competent commander. I think it plays logically to all their strengths, but allows for fun complications and DRAMA.


Either way, I see the campaign starting something like.
> Outrider fleet designation zero-six-echo under Commander Tarkus Crowe of the 5th Warhawk Division discovers the sector, and after conducting surveys of the planets feeds back that a significant force will be needed to clear and secure it.
> organisation & admin & junk to prep for crusade
> Supreme Commander designated (XXXX), mustering orders are sent out to [insert all the legions that come here]
> They respond with who and what they'll bring. As well as expected arrival time in system.
> Arrive in order XYZ
> various operations
> great success
> find hardpoint, can't crack it
> MASTER PLAN
> Fails...
> Raydon and Aodhan trapped behind enemy lines
> Fleets pushed out of the sector due to [insert here]
> Sneaky beaky time. Much anarchy.
> Fleets return
> Primarchs saved/picked up
> crusade some more

thoughts?

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>>49157257
>I thought we were going to hunt. Why do you have a bugle?

>>49157285
I agree that Saul i smore of a follower than a leader. He works very well as Engerand's loyal second in command.

>>49157348
>>49157295
>>49157285
>>49157285
I HAVE A GLORIOUS IDEA.

How much force / heat can a suit of terminator armour take, I know there is that story of one being stepped on by a titan, but what about heat. IIRC ther 5+ they get is actually to represent such bulk that even stuff like lascannons and melta cant guarantee cutting through it.

Someone please tell me im right.

>>49157419
it's 40k, man, the plausibility of an idea is directly proportional to how awesome it is.

The rule of cool reigns supreme.

>>49157480
Ohkay.

Im in the middle of actually writing this up fully and such as command meeting & cut to the implementation of the idea.

Basic premise is:
Crusade forces come across a planet with impossibly good orbital and aero defences. To the point that any ships that get close enough to bombard them WILL be lost. Shuttles and even drop pods are being shot out of the sky. Even the Hawks most stealthy vessels can't get near without detection (and subsequent destruction).

Like I said, Impossibly good defences aiming up. But intel suggests that ground defences are minimal and all together unextraordinary.

Raydon's plan.
Fly several shuttles worth of terminators towards their most prominent orbital defence batteries.
>BUT THATS SUICIDE. NO SHUTTLE CAN EVEN BREAK THE ATMOSPHERE
Yes. That's why we will give the Terminators parachutes.
>uwot?
Yes. Simple parachutes. Anything more technologically advanced may be detected. The Shuttles will be blown out of the sky, and the terminators will fall along side the debris.
Once they have reentered the atmosphere, they can activate their shutes and make their landing.
>srs? the forces they would be subjected to and the heat, and the drag, and well. Quite honestly only half would survive the fall!
by my calculations 1:3 in fact... But from there almost any Astarte force would be able to neutralise the batteries. Let alone vaunted terminators.
so any volunteers?
>Aodhan: Well that's just crazy. Are you going?
Well yes of course.
>Aodhan: then i'm in.

>>49157647
Sounds awesome but to me it sounds more like the sort of reckless and insane idea Engerand would have, not Raydon. Raydon might even be the greentext. He'd know the practical absurdity of the heat and air compression forces involved, and be cautious, but Engerand doesn't understand what caution means.

>>49157277

>Paladins of Kor
Attention citizens and garrison of Placidia Prime. Your master Anders Kor is being brought to justice for his crimes, crimes against your very souls. It is not, as my brothers would have it, the sin of the xeno, for Kor sins against them too. No. Kor has built you a prison and called it paradise. These worlds are built on a lie. Here, all are accepted exactly as they are. The people are sheltered from the storm and the beasts, clamoring for the strong to save them. It is not the duty of the great to sacrifice themselves for the lesser, people of Placidia, it is the duty of all.
The universe is a cold place, a cruel place, and to suggest anything else is the most absurd of lies. There is only one way to grow, to attain enlightenment, and that is through seeking out that primal fear and confronting it.
Since Kor has been remiss in this duty, we have taken it upon ourselves to provide it to you. What we do here today, however, is not a punishment of Kor. That will come in time. No, what we do here today, we do for you, out of love. You look up at our fleet and feel terror in your hearts. This is good. This is the beginning of your liberation. Those of you who die, die well. Those of you who survive will thank us.
Liberate tutame!


>Second Sons
Pre-Heresy: The nukes are pretty cool, but are you really going to stand there in trenches? Seriously?
Post-Heresy: Foul traitors. Your crimes are perhaps the greatest of all, for you turned when turned upon. You reek of fear like a caged animal. (That or that's nurgle rot. Take a bath)

>Angels of Light
Pre-Heresy: The only thing I have ever feared is having to sit through another one of Alexios' lectures on whatever it is that he does.
Post-Heresy: We stand with you until the stars burn cold.

>>49157786

>Sky Serpents
Xun, remember when you ripped out Rubinek's heart? Or the time you tore out a warboss's throat with your teeth? Remember how awesome that was? You should really do that sort of thing more often. And hang out with me more. That Tzolkin, Talons of Xibalba hung out with me during the crusade and look how cool they are now!

>Behemoth Guard
Pre-Heresy: Stalwart warriors and their sense of the macabre gives me hope.
Post-Heresy: Nope. You went full macabre. Never go full macabre.

>Asura
Pre-Heresy: Reality, illusion, what's the difference? You want to find truth? You find it in terror.
Post-Heresy: Damn it Anshul! Stand against the terrors of old night! Not with them! PURGE!

>Eyes
Pre-Heresy: Senpai! You understand!
Post-Heresy: I will bring the Emperor's judgement to you.

>Iron Hearts
Pre-Heresy: The who?
Post-Heresy: One more earthbound legion to purge.

>Scions
Pre-Heresy:
Post-Heresy:

>Negators
Pre-Heresy: Sweet Emperor, Aodhan, How can anyone spend that much time fighting monsters and not learn anything about onself?
Post-Heresy: You fight with monsters long enough and you become a monster, just not the good kind. I'm going to put you down.

>Knights Exemplar
Pre-Heresy: Dependable, honorable warriors. I don't quite get you guys, but I respect you.
Post-Heresy: Klaus is a hero of the Emperor. We will help you honor his memory.

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I suppose I'll respond to the prompt.

>Crimson Warhawks
Pre-Dreadnought: Come, brothers! Let us annihilate the enemy for the glory of mankind!
Post-Dreadnought: Enjoy your flight while you can, brothers, for it will end sooner than you expect.
Post-Heresy: We will provide you with the materiel that you need to keep fighting, but you need to understand: we must remain in the Vigil to keep watch for the forces of the Warmaster should they strike.

>Fists of Mars
Pre-Dreadnought: Stick to your machines, brother. We will destroy the enemy while you stop to refuel.
Post-Dreadnought: We no longer have a choice, but your over-reliance on the mechanicum is not healthy, brother.
Post-Heresy: It is strength of will, not the graces of the machine god, that will see us through to an Imperium reborn.

>Storm Hammers
Pre-Dreadnought: Ha! You fight well, brother!
Post-Dreadnought: Your strategies are inflexible. Continue on without bending and you will break eventually, brother.
Post-Heresy: We hold the line together, brother.

>>49158037
>no comment
fuck

>>49158085
Whoops.
>>49158037
Scions:
Big stompy dudes? Call me when you form up in a terrifying, impenetrable wall. It'll be really cool.

>>49157647
That's actually pretty awesome. It sounds insane when you first read it, and then you remember that NASA lands robots on Mars with parachutes.

>>49157786
Actually, given how the Sons operate, I don't think they'd do much trench standing unless something has gonna disastrously wrong. Hence what ends up happening on Armageddon. They're all about hitting civilian and infrastructure targets really hard, using that as cover for fast and heavy attacks on harder military targets. Basically just rinse and repeat until they've either destroyed the military or killed enough civilians that they just say mum.

Lots of Thunderhawks and drop pods literally coming in through mushrooms clouds or as nukes go off around them.

>>49158325
(Badass, and makes a lot more sense.)

In that case, Void Lords are probably pretty fond of the Second Sons, they just don't get why the Sons don't go in for terror.

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>>49158085
>Void Lords
Pre-Dreadnought: Our strategies are similar, but you may take yours too far.
Post-Dreadnought: This insanity will only lead to doom, whether delivered by a vengeful enemy or our father.

>Angels of Light
Pre-Dreadnought: Spare me your lectures, brother. There are enemies to kill.
Post-Dreadnought: You act like a pompous ass, but you are right more often than not.
Post-Heresy: Your constant bickering with Anders distracts you from the true threat in the west.

>Sky Serpents
Pre-Dreadnought: I respect your tactics, but sometimes you are too cerebral for my taste.
Post-Dreadnought: I understand now, brother.
Post-Heresy: Your endless experiments waste resources that could stop the enemy through more practical means.

>>49157768
The thing is it isnt absurd. Its just outside the box thinking. The terminator armour can hold up against the heat and might hold up against the Gforce (risky bus).

The way i saw it unfolding was.
Engerand: take the planet before X time
Raydon: impossible. We cant get anything near it.
E: do it. Do it noa.
Aodhan/saul: we could rush it. We would take massive casualties but if it needs to be done asap its the only way.
Rayson: its not the only way.....

I'll do it too.

>Bloodhounds
Pre-Heresy: Hey, tone it down a little.
Post-Heresy: Ah, shit. They didn't tone it down at all.

>Crimson Warhawks
Pre-Heresy: You guys are a little aggressive, don't you think?
Post-Heresy: Apparently no, you don't think.

>Fists of Mars
Pre-Heresy: Oh cool, you built a thing.
Post-Heresy: Oh cool, you built a thing to kill me.

>Storm Hammers
Pre-Heresy: You guys are okay. Not great, but okay.
Post-Heresy: Leave us alone. Go away. Stop it.

>Void Lords
Pre-Heresy: Can you guys please stop scaring the children?
Post-Heresy: Can you guys please stop scaring the adults?

>Angels of Light
Pre-Heresy: I think we would get along better if we spent more time together or something.
Post-Heresy: Never mind. You guys are religious nuts.

>Sky Serpents
Pre-Heresy: I could get behind what you're saying, you seem nice enough.
Post-Heresy: Would you please stop stealing my wallet? I know you're doing it. I haven't seen you do it, but I know you do.

>Undying Scions
Pre-Heresy: Slow down there Tarzan. Plenty of fighting to go around.
Post-Heresy: Oooh... Ouch.

>Knights Exemplar
Pre-Heresy: You's some cool dudes, you know that?
Post-Heresy: And now you're all dead. Damn.

>Warp Raiders
Pre-Heresy: Sorcery, that's cool. Alien sorcery? I don't think Dad's gonna like that...
Post-Heresy: Dad's dead, go nuts.

>Oathsworn
Pre-Heresy: I'M GONNA FEED YOU YOUR OWN HEART!
Post-Heresy: Uh... Sorry about that.

>Eyes of the Warmaster
Pre-Heresy: You want me to what? Sweet.
Post-Heresy: You dick, that thing you wanted me to do was TERRIBLE!

>Silver Spears
Pre-Heresy: I like these guys. Should practice with them more often.
Post-Heresy: These guys are tough. Fight them whenever you can.

>Judgement Bringers
Pre-Heresy: Artillery. Nice. Let's exchange tips sometime.
Post-Heresy: Sure, artillery is great, but have you tried chainswords? No? Let me demonstrate.

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>>49158566
>Second Sons
Pre-Heresy: Hey, whoa, little excessive buddy.
Post-Heresy: Really? You assholes, that was low. I don't even like those guys, but that was low. Fuck you.

>Behemoth Guard
Pre-Heresy: Tanks? I mean, yeah, they're cool. I guess.
Post-Heresy: FUCK. TANKS.

>Arms of Asura
Pre-Heresy: What did that guy say? I can't understand him.
Post-Heresy: Well, that's a daemon. Maybe he was talking about daemons?

>Negators
Pre-Heresy: You guys need to let the other legions catch up.
Post-Heresy: Pic Related

>>49158691
What did the Sons do? Other than try to kill everything that lives.

>>49158716
They turned coat on the Red Road. Things might be different if they hadn't.

>>49158566
>Pre-Heresy: You guys are a little aggressive, don't you think?
>Post-Heresy: Apparently no, you don't think.

Can't tell if this means they don't think at all. Or they don't think they are too aggressive.
I mean both fit well, just can tell.

>>49158549
And you could also air drop superheavy tanks and dreadnoughts. They survive the fall in Know No Fear. You just need a way to slow down.

...So, I take it the Sky Serpents and Warhawks get together on a project to drop superheavy tanks from low orbit? A disposable retro-frame on the bottom to slow them before they touch down, and decoys/countermeasures/the durability of the tanks to protect them on the way down?

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>>49159338

So this but with a Stormbird and a Predator?

>>49159388
Yes, that, but also with a bulk lander and a Fellblade.

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>>49159338
Daily reminder that the Angels of Light's primary battlefield tactic is literally airdropping jetbikes from high atmosphere.

>>49159338
Well the reason they would drop the terminators after deploying them from the shuttle is that a astartes sized target falling from a shuttle would be considered debris and not shot down.

In the scenario im writing up, the xeno have a way to detect and accurately target even small shuttles from far out. Which has so far prevented any type of landing. Whats more the orbital defences are well dug in and have considerable damage ability. So no vessel that moves into orbital bombardment range comes back out again.

Spoilers: once the terminators land they quickly disable the defences and everyone lives happily ever after.

>>49159469
Sure, but in general, I think the Sky Serpents are the sorts to air drop their Fellglaives and Malcadors so that they can get them into position that much quicker. In as much as the Warhawks ever use such things, I'd bet they do similar.
>>49159456
So Alexios is in the drop superheavy tanks from orbit club too? :3

(Ah Know No Fear, the ideas you give us~)

>>49159456
Speaking of hover vehicles, I thought it'd be cool if the uninterred Scions made use of Landspeeder Storms modified to fit full marines. They'd use them to better facilitate sowing discord among enemy ranks.

>>49159652
Negators, Second Sons, Warp Raiders Primarchs or Commanders on this crusade.

How would they react to this:

http://pastebin.com/7ftqCqKz

Im at the point where I think other Primarchs would chime in with there own opinions. But im not sure their form of etiquette

>>49159652
What's the capacity on a speeder? I don't see why they couldn't, though, particularly if they asked the Fists for help.
Having Sinistrum is an incredibly useful plot device. We should really give him more attention. I'm going to do up a character for them in a bit, I think.

>>49159975
Oramar would miss the meeting because he was already planetside, then ask why they didn't just ask him to teleport them too.

Or he'd suggest it and they would all grimace in horror at the prospect.

>>49159652
100% in one of the earliest thread I suggested that as one of the many ways the Hawks deployed rather than use Jump Packs.

>>49160007
ah I forgot about teleportation... I might have to come up with something to make it even more unstable in order to make sky diving termies the more reasonable option. Curses. Maybe their whole mission can be to place teleport homers to allow for safer teleportation. Or maybe being within teleportation range is too close, and the defence weapons have been destroying the ships would try just that.

>>49159988
Normal landspeeders can carry two marines, but the storm variant can carry five scouts. I wish that Sinistrum anon would show up more, he has some good ideas.

>>49159975
>able to strike at even our smallest shuttles several AUs out of the atmosphere
>several AUs out

and people call my shit over the top

>>49159988
Speaking of Sinistrum, do we have anything more than is on the Wiki?
The codex Sinistrum stuff is great, but I'm wondering if we have any idea what makes them different from the !Iron Hands.

>>49160068
And those people are faggots. This is 40k, if we cared about things being too over the top we'd play Flames of War.

>>49159652
>>49160062
Angels of Light have something similar. I haven't come up with a kickass name for the modified pattern, but it's an upscaled storm, about twice as big, which carries four Astartes: two manning mounted gun platforms, one manning the auspex array, and one pilot.

>>49160068
To be fair, im not quite sure what the uh, level or rather, detail that is accurate.

What I mean is, I don't know how far the ships get to planets, or how far out shuttles are deployed from. So I just threw out something.

What is the norm? I was thinking 20-30% extra is where these defences are hitting. So that by the time the Loyalists are within range to even start there fighting, they have already taken a huge beating.

>>49160097
I actually like having a degree of normalcy in my fiction. I know 40k is about going next step, but even then I like internal consistency.
To each his own, I know, I know.

>>49160057
Warp destabilizers? Such technology exists, I think. Also warp shields prevent teleportation, but you can't fall through a void shield, you'd die.

>>49160062
Agreed. It's the kind of thing where I don't want to touch it too much since he does have cool stuff, but it would be nice to have more details on them.

>>49160068
It's not excessive when it's Xenos, duh.
Though I think it's a typo, makes no sense to have a shuttle try to travel that far.
But also, it's always weird when modern technology let's you do scifi stuff like watch individual people from orbit.

>>49160099
You mean a Landspeeder Vengeance? :p

>>49160143
>Though I think it's a typo, makes no sense to have a shuttle try to travel that far.

Not a typo, just an ignorant guess of what the norm was.

What are normal distances for ships to be able to engage targets accurately, distance for fliers to deploy from, etc etc.

I like having accuracy in my little stories, I just don't know what accurate is.

Also, I thought you could walk through void shields? Isn't that why Titans don't get their shields in close combat?

>>49160131
An AU is the distance from the sun to the earth. Orbital ranges are, uh, quite a bit smaller than that. High Earth Orbit is about 20,000km-30,000km. An AU is 150 million km.

>>49160170
EVEN BIGGER, but yeah basically.

>>49160131
Well, an AU is 93 million miles, 8 light minutes. The moon is 8 lightseconds away from the Earth and low Earth orbit is less than a second away. Space officially starts at 20 miles up, so say 100 miles up for some low flying stuff. The ISS is 250 miles up, whereas a geostationary orbit is 22,000 miles or so.

So if a ship is going to be bombarding a fixed position on an earth like planet, that's where they'll be, though it varies with planetary radius and rotation speed.

40k ships tend to travel at sublight inside a system, which honestly is a bit weird, since the technology for Star Trek style alcubierre drive exists in universe.
Anyways, I think the fleet tender at Calth hits .2c, when it goes to full burn just above Calth and that's crazy fast, if that helps.

>>49160218
Bwhaha. Well I was more than a little off. Ill change that.

Anyway, the real issue is.

What would other Primarchs say at that point.

>Oramar suggests teleportation.
>Aodhan ___________
>Saul _____________

Also, how does a lowly commander presenting this information change there views on the information? (A commander of this rank would be equivilent to a senior veteran sergeant, or possibly junior captain in a standard codex chapter (has approximately 50 battle brothers under him)

How do they feel about the idea of leaving the enemy alone with a small garrison to blockade and continue the fight elsewhere?

>>49160307
Saul would probably defer to Engerand's judgement and support him not because his ideas are good or bad, but because he's in command goddamnit.

>>49160192
>Physics
Gotcha, for data, see >>49160267

>Voids
I'm not totally sure. I remember reading that void shields work by displacing things that hit them into a warp space. And if they stop shells, why wouldn't they stop people? I'd assumed it was an angling thing, since it would be weird to shield the bottom of something and game mechanics don't accurately represent fluff.
This said, it could be something about the inertia/energy of incoming fire. Either way, falling terminators are more like battle cannon shells, which a shield stops, than a marching guardsman, so I'd argue that in this case, it doesn't make a difference.

>>49160307
I think Aodhán would impune Raydon's manhood.

Saul, I think, would say something like 'let's just take care of it now. Nuke it from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.'

>>49160307
What's the planet like? If it's not lifebearing and the enemies aren't humans he would probably just recommend bombing it from orbit until there's nothing left but glass and dust then mop up while the enemy is still reeling. The material wealth of the planet would be mostly intact for mining and stuff.

>>49160335
I get what you're saying but given the context are you suggesting he would just remain silent?

Rather than provide an idea on how to actually provide support?

>>49160356
>Voids
True that. Makes sense.

>Aodhan
Yeah probably. So the question then becomes, does Aodhan see it as a noble pursuit to bum-rush otherwise insurmountable defences? or does he see it as a costy waste of life when real battle awaits elsewhere?

>>49160382
Well I hadn't done up a whole xeno race or anything, but I saw them as a subterrain people, whose weapon systems were tied to the geothermal energy created from the planet core, and protected by being so far down that the bombing they had conducted hadn't caused any notable damage.

The planet, I saw as not important strategically except that it was inhabited by a xeno race that had technology that surpassed even the Emperors fleets.

It would be habitable, so possible to colonise, but not anything special. Hence why the Hawk Commander suggests just leaving it alone to go do more important things.

So I know how Oramar and Saul react. Aodhan still has 2 very plausible responses to choose from.

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>>49160455
I think he'd scold the officer for questioning Engerand's orders and not taking the world as he was commanded to.

"LORD ENGERAND IS IN COMMAND HERE, MARINE! YOU WILL DO AS HE COMMANDS! IF A PRIMARCH TELLS YOU TO TAKE A PLANET, YOU TAKE THAT PLANET, YOU DO NOT COME TO HIM WITH EXCUSES."

>>49160517
Fundamentally not understanding what a reconnaissance brief is.

>>49160553
Saul's the kind of guy who doesn't even bother with reconnaissance. If the enemy is weak, we will destroy them. If they are strong, we will destroy them with casualties.

>>49160517
Ah, maybe it wasnt clear in the story ill rectify it.

But at this point, the officer thats conducting the brief is just on a surviellance tasking. Hence why such a junior commander is briefing higher ups. He was first on scene, reported back, gathered info as he waited and now is informing the bosses.

So his forces wouldnt have been tasked to take a planet, unless it was very lightly defended and even then its iffy.

>>49160553
Yeah thats it. He is just informing the bosses of information gathered.

>>49160455
Hm, in that case Saul would probably recommend trying to smoke them out somehow. Poison gas, viral weapons, or good ol' phosphex pumped into their warrens. Bomb out a beach head and then start trying to force the ticks out.

That said, the Second Sons probably aren't the best against super hard targets, simply because their strategy favours exploiting the sensitive soft parts to get around armor.

>>49160608
I dont get that vibe. He is a soldier, soldiers value recon. They are professionals. He would almost certainly stick with conventional doctrine which would have assets forward to pathfind and guide forces to where they need to be.

Its actually unimaginable for me to have a commander at such a high level who doesnt bother with recon. They would be outplayed in any engagement by simple ruses and decoys. Ambushed time and time again. Unable to actually deploy their weapons on their terms.

If they dont know where their enemies are they have to assume they are everywhere. Which means they need to simultaneously defend every vector, leaving all of their defences thin.

And thats just to move around.

>>49160679
You're talking about Space Marines. They are practically undefeatable. Things like tactics and strategy are luxuries they engage in because they enjoy them, not because they are necessary. Their armor is nigh impenatrable, their guns shoot 40mm grenades at minigun fire rates, and they can tear an Ork apart with their bare hands.

These aren't soldiers, they're tanks with legs.

>>49160709
Ah, but Saul is a soldier.

Ultimately, he may be one of the Primarchs most willing to take casualties and collateral, he still aims to win. He aims to destroy his opponents as quickly and decisively as possible. There's some amount of planning and forethought that goes into that, even R&D sometimes. Even if the end result is usually "blow them to hell in their must vulnerable points and then storm what's left while they're still dazed", there's gonna be a fair bit of run up and planning.

>>49160709
I disagree. They are good, great even. But far from impervious to harm.

And i think tactics are important for several reasons. But you seem pretty certain so im not going to try and convince you otherwise.

>>49160709
But Saul is a soldier.

(Also, all the primarchs bother with strategy, except angron. It's how they take out xenos horrors.)

>>49160709
If that were true then the various xeno threats in the canon universe wouldn't pose a threat to them.

But they do. Because they are super soldiers, not gods. They are likened to angels because they are so far above human capability but still very mortal.

> tactics and strategy are luxuries they engage in
actually retarded. Like full blown retard.

>>49160753
The only reason xeno threats still exist is because the setting would be boring without them. Plot armor is the only thing keeping the universe from being tread under ceramite boots.

If you put a bunch of Space Marines in a line and said 'march forward and kill everything,' they would win against literally any foe.

>>49160738
>there's gonna be a fair bit of run up and planning.

exactly. You can't deploy large numbers of troops to achieve various objectives spanning whole sectors without planning.

Tactics and strategy are not "just nice to have"
They are quite literally the most basic building blocks of conflict.

>>49160753
Well I mean yes, but no for that need really.

>>49160784
> they would win against literally any foe.
except Tau, who constantly beat them
or Necrons who pound for pound have better everything
or Eldar who have plenty of weapons that ignore there armour and even faster than them.
or even enough guardsmen, whose weapon platforms far exceed a space marines abililites.
or literally any faction who can fight back.

ie: Ultramarines 1st company being utterly defeated by tyranid organisms.

>IF ONLY WE HAD FORMED A LINE AND WALKED TOWARDS THEM WE COULD HAVE SAVED EVERYONE

>>49160889
Hey thats not me!

I mean i more or less agree but still, dont be doing things with my name anon

>>49160889
I've been being facetious for several posts now.

>>49160907
No you're not me.

>>49160907
>>49160938

I'll just kill you both.

>>49160907
I feel strangely violated.

>>49160938
!!!!

>>49160957
Wait, that's not me either!

Still, I definitely think Saul would be the sort to callously disregard a projected 40% casualty rate as the price of doing business. I feel like casualties aren't really something that enter into his strategic decisionmaking process.

Also I just feel like he talks in all caps and calls anyone who isnt a primarch MAGGOT

>>49160998
While I agree with the first part, the second part less so. I always saw him as a mix of Stannis and Kurtz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af0dSZXGK9Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxLFdJLSho8

>>49160889
No you're not me.

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>>49160967
stawp it

>>49160998
having your carefully planned and organised crusade be delayed by 2+ decades though?

I mean, timeline delays are expected, but this would be the equivalent of your entire margin of error on a single planet.

I mean as the 2IC that would be his bag as well, he would be the one managing the timelines and stuff. But okay, ill have him just back the gungho message. Still works, just means people take mad casualties before they realised skydiving terminators are the answer.

>>49161018
I think he's Stannis if Stannis was Lawful Evil instead of Lawful Neutral.

>>49161043
I mean, mad casualties for a Space Marine legion would ultimately be something pretty low for their size. They're hard to replace, so even Saul would probably pull out after anything more than 30% casualties for the current forces on the ground. At least, if that wasn't guaranteed victory.

>>49161018
>>49160998
I find it almost funny how callous you think soldiers are. Just because a commander accepts risk and casualty doesn't mean that he just writes it off. You always try and find the best, safest, and fastest way to get your mission accomplished. Every commander in any modern military is always trying to bring home safe as many of their troops as they can.

Like if you want to have you character like this describe him as a WWII Russian general rather than a soldier, because what you are talking about now is not what a soldier is.

>>49161043
I am in no way the authority on Saul Sheridan nor should I bee, take my opinions with a grain of salt.

I don't think of him as a particularly skilled strategist or logistics manager. Like Rubinek and Engerand, he tends to prosecute enemies with a very blunt and straightforward approach: throw guys at the problem until it's solved.

Maybe a Tribunal situation could be cool, with Saul reinforcing Engerand's gung ho attitude and Oramar or Raydon tempering Engerand with caution and thoughtfulness.

>>49161050
Rude. Saul only wants peace. If that means nuking 90% of a planet so the remaining 10% can live in peace? If that's lawful evil, I don't want to be neutral.

>>49161088
I'm the original Saul anon and I think I'm kinda losing the real core of idea atm. It's pretty late and I'm a little drunk, so I'm gonna leave and mentally regroup before I make anymore statements I may disagree with later.

>>49161093
>Maybe a Tribunal situation could be cool, with Saul reinforcing Engerand's gung ho attitude and Oramar or Raydon tempering Engerand with caution and thoughtfulness.


Actually, expanding on this with the other involved primarchs, it makes some sense as a neat little bit of pre-heresy factionalism.

Engerand in command.

Saul Sheridan and Aodhan insisting we fucking fight already what's the hold up?

Raydon and Oramar insisting we wait, plan, and observe further.

>>49161088
>Every commander in any modern military is always trying to bring home safe as many of their troops as they can.

I think there's maybe two or three officers in the whole of the Imperium who feel this way about their soldiers.

>>49161050
Ive always seen saul (preheresy) as neutral. Never evil. Definately a stannis.

I saw Saul as a line infantry to Raydons operator. Both thought of mission first, but saul was more a doctrine kind of guy.

>>49161079
Yeah losing 30% of a fleet is significant. Not to mention the crews on them. The future of the crusade would be called into question.

>>49161088
You know it.

>>49161118
Yeah sort of. Raydons view is to call in someone whose job it is to take places like this. Enoch or Rubinek. Let the momentum continue.

Every tool to its place.

>>49161142
I think th point anon is getting at is that, to describe him as a soldier and then have him act as a ww2 russian is portraying 2 seperate images.

>>49161163
I meant 30% of a force currently engaged. You're never gonna bave the whole fleet or legion fighting the same battle at once right?

>>49161163
Also, I think what they mean by calling him a soldier is that he doesn't have any sort of warrior culture. In his mind stuff like honor or nobility is just frills. He has a job that needs doing, he does it. That's the be all and end all of his perception of his duty.

>>49161212
Thats what he was saying in his story. The ships were getting taken out way before they could return fire or land. The only way to get close was to employ infantry wave tactics but with ships. Thats why the commander is like "lets hust go around". Because its not worth trying to get near the place to.bomb it.

Did noone else read his story?

>>49145046
I fully support this, though not that my support is important in some form.

>>49161212
Yes. Thats why they are looking for alternatives

>>49161163
>I think th point anon is getting at is that, to describe him as a soldier and then have him act as a ww2 russian is portraying 2 seperate images.
ww2 russians are soldiers though

>>49161270
It very much is important, sempai. Welcome back.

>>49161320
>ww2 russians are soldiers though
misses the point. waits for a slip up and then misrepresents the argument.

yep this in the internet alright

>>49161811
To me 'He's a soldier' means 'He does what he's told and doesn't question it.' It means he's the get shit done sort, not the glory and honor sort.

Just popping in to put forth an idea and say that I appreciate how civil these threads are.

As the crusader state with the largest navy, the Unyielding Vigil puts forth an entire chapter dedicated to fending off and launching boarding actions from Vigilant ships. The Rending Stars are equipped specially for fighting in bulkheads as well as the void and as such they make use of advanced jump packs that keep them oriented when fighting in low gravity. Rending Stars tactical marines and dreadnoughts wield shotcannons, mighty weapons that are to a shotgun as an autocannon is to an assault rifle.

Quick. What would the Spears think about the Iron Hearts?

>>49162385
They're pretty much ideological opposites, aren't they?

The Silver Spears believe they are inherently superior to everyone and they don't have to prove anything to you. They fight with a flashy style that shows off their artistic and aesthetic sensibilities.

The Iron Hearts are inherently inferior to everyone but are determined to make themselves superior by any means necessary. They fight without flash or style, marching at a carefully measured and controlled pace. They don't even paint their armor.

>>49162452
Merci.

>>49162452
genetically inferior perhaps due to their flaw, but I think they are well up to standard if not beyond it with their implants.

>>49162723
>I think they are well up to standard if not beyond it with their implants.

That's exactly what I meant by

>determined to make themselves superior by any means necessary

>>49157285
>I mean, its still great crusade era, surely if he was ordered to go to a place and do things he would do it

Oh sure. The idea is that he's ordered to join the crusade, and he starts funneling more of his Legion in as it progresses and he realizes how much cool stuff is lying around.

>>49160455
>Yeah probably. So the question then becomes, does Aodhan see it as a noble pursuit to bum-rush otherwise insurmountable defences? or does he see it as a costy waste of life when real battle awaits elsewhere?

This would depend on the urgency of the situation. If this is part of an ongoing campaign where the xenos are allied with others or part of a larger empire and have a reason to strike at the Imperial forces' rearguard then he'd say something has to be done now, though just chucking ships at the problem en mass is dumb.

If it's just a lone xenos world, he'd actually agree with Raydon. No point in bloodying your own nose for no particular reason. He's doesn't care about purging the alien and etc etc. Showing weakness and cowardice in battle is high tier ergi shit, but there's little point in just fighting for no reason.

>>49163088
>urgency of the situation
open to interpretation. Commander has told you to do it ASAP but as explained in the story, there is no actual reason to take it apart from the idea that you have been told to.

>just chucking ships at the problem en mass is dumb.
So assuming you didn't read it, the context is that the planet has little ground forces. Nearly 0 interstellar capability. But off the charts ground to air/space batteries. To the point where even the Hawks most stealthy vessels are being detected and shot down before they get into firing range. From whats been attempted so far, and based off projections of known imperial ship resilience and the damage capability of these weapon platforms. The savant puts forward that it would take a huge investment of ships to attack together to ensure that enough actually make it within attack range and survive long enough to launch landers / drop pods and/or bombard the platforms into submission.

But to do that will be upwards of 30-40% of the fleet. Unknown amount of land force losses.

Raydon suggests bypass. And is told thats not an option.
Oramar puts forth the idea of teleporting in, but even that requires getting close.
Saul is willing to risk the 40% though isn't sure how the crusade will be able to manage afterwards on schedule.

Sounds like Aodhan would support Raydon. When its shut down, would he offer any suggestion on how to do it? Or again back Raydon when he suggests sky-diving terminators.

>>49163386
>So assuming you didn't read it, the context is that the planet has little ground forces.

I read it. Aodhán would just think that flooding the planet's atmosphere with so many ships that they can't possibly shoot them all down is ridiculously wasteful. So he'd be in definite disagreement with Saul, probably more on Raydon's side. He'd be open to Engerand's position if Engerand can find a solution that isn't a zerg rush.

If these guys have very little interstellar ability then his question would really be "Why do we care enough to do this?"

Once the shutdown happens, though, he'd be more amicable to Oramar and Raydon's solutions than Saul's. He'd probably volunteer some of his heavier, super durable "this thing was designed to one v one and that's all" ships to get close enough to make teleport raids or drop Terminators, seeing as these guns make trying to avoid detection a non-option.

>>49163447
ooooh. I hadn't considered they might have ships designed to take a beating. Im imagining literal blocks of steel and void shielding just plodging towards the planet whilst being raked and bits flying off it.

It is done.

>>49162019
This is an awesome idea.

>>49163495
Thanks. The Rending Stars recruit from among the crews of the ships that they defend, taking the hardiest of the voidsmen from the lowest, most dangerous decks. Rending Stars combat doctrine is much removed from their parent legion, and they prefer fast, precise strikes strikes over protracted sieges.

>>49161270
It's always nice when we don't utterly destroy the character you had in mind.

>>49161093
I'd been thinking of him as pretty Sherman-ish. For what that's worth.

>>49161113
Where do you stand, Lord?

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>>49158374
>Knights Exemplar
Pre-Interment: You bring glory to all mankind, brother.
Post-Interment: We will stand together for eternity.
Post-Heresy: An example to us all.

>Warp Raiders
Pre-Interment: I do not know much about the powers of the warp, but I know that they are harmful. You should stop dabbling.
Post-Interment: The folly of the warp raiders serves as a lesson to us, that we may stay loyal to our Imperium.
Post-Heresy: The Warp Raiders will come, but we will stop them.

>>49163471
Yep.

Negators ships are outfitted for the sole purpose of dueling with other vessels. Aodhán never really liked the idea of just bombarding planets to shit, especially human planets, so almost everything relating to that is stripped away. Their ships are tough, and trade volume of fire for armaments that shoot far and shoot hard - lances, Nova Cannons, etc. Aodhán's fleet probably has a fuckton of Nova Cannons.

They're not really optimal for fighting numerous fleets of smaller vessels, but when it comes to tanking capital ship fire and dealing out decisive damage, they excel.

>>49167485
So on the subject of funky capital ship mods, what weird shit can we think of to put on Behemoth Guard ships?
I'm picturing absolutely massive void leviathans with enhanced forges and formidable bombardment capacity, but what else?

I'm thinking the Sky Serpent fleet tends to have ships specialized for different functions. They all have their engines upgraded, but frigates vary wildly in how they're speced out. That way they can have ships with wildly different functions, like bombardment or jamming or ship to ship combat without getting into a mess where the ships have to be able to do everything.

>>49167485
An addition to this:

I was thinking during the early stages of the Calixian Crusade, when Aodhán and Raydon are stuck in Josian Reach, they're conducting their space operations from the safety of the accretion disc swirling around a forming star, which is making catching any kind of distinct signature in the region extremely difficult.

Eventually when they're brought to batter by the much larger Vath fleet, Raydon has the idea of having the Brightroar and two of his Strike Cruisers engage them on the edge of the disc, firing torpedoes at them from long range that have been fitted to cause massive signal flares on impact, bright enough to detect through the interference. Meanwhile, the Answerer sits in the accretion disc, and just fires its fuckoff huge Alexander Cannon at anything that lights up on its sensors. So the xenos are trying to engage Raydon's tiny fleet, but they're just getting pounded to shit by this immense gun that they can't detect, and ships that are dealt mere scalding damage by the edges of each blast are being hit by concentrated fire from the lances on the Brightroar, scuttling them in short order.

>>49167740
I like it. I also imagine that Raydon's ships are 'painting' the enemy fleet with some sort of sensor ping, allowing Aodhán greater accuracy despite being in a sensor disrupting cloud.

>>49167690
Behemoth Guard of the Great Crusade probably had huge bulk lander capability, for getting their fatass vehicles and stuff to the ground quickly. Literally just dropping metal bawkes full of tanks and dreads.

Modern Behemoth Guard ships seem like they could have all kinds of crazy shit. They might be at least partially biomechanical. I can imagine the smaller classes of vessel having huge mechandrites they can use to latch on to larger ships and burrow into. Maybe they'd use torpedoes packed with swarms of biomechanical horrors, too.

>>49168610
Oh shit anon, you've just given me a great idea.

>Hive Fleet Behemoth
In early M38, while the eyes of the Eastern Imperium were on the Firewall and the Dark Imperium sat on the edge of internal division, a tyranid hivefleet emerged from the darkness of the veiled region and halo stars, twisted by the strange things that lurk beyond the starlight. After a brief set of onesided battles in which Behemoth Guard Abomination Engines and Cybernetica units crushed the tyranid advance (for there was very little for them to eat), the Hereteks of the Great Houses realized that the tyranid weapon-beasts were ideal substrates for further augmentation.

Since then, Hive Fleet Behemoth has been spotted on several occasions on battlefields across the galaxy, lobotomized carnifexes serving as mounts for Behemoth Guard warriors and unending streams of hormaguants controlled from the Behemoth Guard command manifold.

>>49168883
It is said that the Beast of Terrodyne himself leads the swarm in the form of a possessed Hive Tyrant known as the Swarmlord.

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The Funerary Guard are the watchers of the watchmen. Formed shortly after the founding of the Unyielding Vigil in order to combat domestic threats, the Funerary Guard ensure that the worlds of the Vigil remain productive to supply the long war. There are no dreadnoughts among the clerics of the Funerary Guard, as their duties often take place in areas too small for the dreadnoughts to fit.
In the aftermath of the ninth crusade, the Funerary Guard have taken it upon themselves to combat the corruptions of the necrons wherever they crop up. Engaged in an endless shadow war with the Undercouncil, the Funerary Guard work tirelessly to ensure that no more of the Scions' venerable brothers fall to their dark embrace.

>>49164364
I like the idea, but I'm not so sure on the name.

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>>49169835
Any suggestions?

>>49169917
Serrated Stars?
Astral Fangs?

Hmm...

>>49168003
Well yeah, the idea is he's hitting these ships with torps that are refitted to cause huge sensor pings. It's not 100% accurate, but that's the beauty of it - it doesn't need to be.

Nova Cannon explosions are fukken HUEG.

>>49169917
I quite like the Rending Stars name.

But if not, how about... Abyss Stalkers? Star Furies? Astral Blades?

>>49170594
I think I'll stick with the Rending Stars for now. What did you think about >>49169525 ?

>>49170611
I think they be cool. Nice to see an organization for the Necron conspiracy namedropped too.

Oh yeah, something else I was thinking of, a while back.

Void Lords. What do we think about them being one of the more mutant-y Legions, in the Carcharadon or Black Dragon sorta way? I was thinking pitch black eyes, due to absorbing ALL THE LIGHT, and then they either have ashen skin and occasional chitinous growths or completely jet skin like Salamanders. Maybe fangs or just extremely sharp, sharklike teeth.

Also, do they do Successor Chapters or are all their fleets still calling themselves Void Lords?

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>>49170740
I'm down with this but FYI I think the Eyes of the Warmaster, or at least REDACTED himself, have black skin and orange eyes, so try not to overlap. They spend a lot of time in the void being bombarded by radiation, so it makes sense to me they'd have some mutations.


I need Angels of Light or Bloodhound prompts, sempais. Give me ideas and questions.

>>49170896
Did you ever do an Angels relationship chart aside from ranking the other legions by tier?

>>49171178
eh, they're not that interesting

>>49170740
I've imagined them as pretty Carcharodony looking, though the black with glowing eyes is pretty badass, but as Alexios says, that is the Warmaster's thing.

I did up these a bit back:

The activities of the Void Lords post heresy are ambiguous at best. However, evidence suggests splinter fleets deploying independently of the Void God. These "chapters" are referred to by the name of their flagship, when known. Such fleets have also been known to set up regular supply pacts with various manufactorum and forge worlds.

>Battlegroup Event Horizon This battlefleet is lead by the Gloriana class Event Horizon, believed to be the same ship as the original legion flagship. Sightings suggest a strong occult interest in the fleet, with the craft festooned in atropaic gargoyles wreathed in warpflame. The Warriors themselves are no less odd, the battlefield wreathed in a sepulchral fog when they deploy, chanting hymns to the Emperor in high gothic. Inquisitors suggest that this is, in part, due to a higher than average concentration of librarians in the Battle group.

>Battlegroup Dawnflower The eponymous Dawnflower is believed to be a Second Sons battle barge captured during the heresy. Reports suggest that these astartes have an intense interest in light and dark, preferring to attack at dawn or at dusk and show a marked preference for bright weaponry, such as flamers, meltas, and flash-grenades. It is likely that this choice is cultic in nature, but this battlegroup is even more reclusive than most.

>>49172042
>Battlegroup Nicor This battlegroup is noted for their rapid assault tactics. They show a marked preference for jump pack assaults and drop pods. Once landed, they slaughter their way into the unprotected rear to wreak havoc. Such strikes are also usually coördinated with orbital bombardment.

>Battlegroup Terminus Est Centered around the dread world killer, Terminus Est, this battlefleet has been observed to field far more armored vehicles than the average Void Lords deployment. It is suspected that this is due to the freer use of rad and chemical weapons.

>Battlegroup Red Banquet This battlegroup has been noted to employ infiltration and ranged elimination tactics, typically making use of seeker squads and to whittle down the enemy command structure before the final strike.

>>49170896
Give us detail on the Great Hunt. What's it look like/significant battles?

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>>49173643
After the Purgation of the Warp Raiders, the Bloodhounds sit in high orbit above the Ork world of Octarius, ostensibly to purge the xenos and end their threat to nearby worlds. They linger there for several years, hunting the greenskins for fun and sport.

Their real purpose is far more sinister. The war against the Orks is used to purge their ranks of loyalist terran-borns, sending them on deadly missions, calling in danger-close artillery strikes, and even murdering them in their sleep, anything which does not alert the rest that they are being targeted.

The Warmaster's plan is to send one of the loyalist legions to Octarius with the purpose of joining the Bloodhounds and completing the war against the greenskins. The legion that shows up is the Void Lords.

After brief greeting ceremonies, the Void Lords deploy on the planet and the Bloodhounds deploy their reserve forces. The fighting against the Orks is fierce, bloody, and rapid in pace. However, things quickly turn to chaos.

Seemingly without reason, many of the Bloodhounds turn blood crazy, slaughtering anything that gets near, including the Void Lords and more Terran-born Bloodhounds. Thousands are slaughtered before Graha'nak can discern what is going on, make contact with Balthasar, and ask him what the fuck is happening. Balthasar stalls for time, telling him that he's not sure and it might be some sort of xeno virus or bioweapon.

Balthasar's great captains use their anathame blades for the slaughter, turning slain Void Lords and Orks into daemonhosts with bodies like massive war hounds. With the psychic significance of the treachery at hand, Karachian cultists trained by the Arms of Asura manage to draw thousands of khornate daemons into realspace. As the blood pack grows, Graha'nak soon realizes the treachery at hand, and orders his men to retaliate against the Bloodhounds in full force. The fighting is bloody, disorienting, and even terrifying for the Void Lords.

>>49174092
Facing overwhelming odds, daemonic terrors the likes of which have never been seen, and the mind-wrenching despair of fratricidal astartes, Graha'nak orders his men to withdraw from the planet and return to the Void God.

What follows is a long chase, as the Void Lords jump from system to system, getting into periodic naval skirmishes as the Bloodhounds launch boarding torpedos at the Void God and its escorts. Some land, and find themselves the outnumbered ones, facing the void Lords on their home turf. These few Bloodhounds learn the true meaning of fear, as they are terrorized by the Void Lords.

Turning to the galactic south through Charadon sector, the Void Lords occasionally land on populated or compliant worlds, resorting to abject piracy to resupply their retreat. Many worlds are left as ashen wastelands, burned by the hunters and the hunted alike.

After particularly terrible fighting on the muddy world of Agrax, Graha'nak finally formulates a plan of action which can lead to his legion's survival: He will move east toward Imperium Minorum, and seek the aid of Alexios' angels.

>>49164364
Sounds like my kind of people.

>>49174184
By the time the Great Hunt reaches the edges of Alexios' Empire within and Empire, Alexios has already been contacted by diplomatic envoys from the Eyes of the Warmaster and the Paladins of Kor. The Paladins envoys, lead by Bannroud Tanriel, insist that the Warmaster was behind a great treachery at the Cadian tournament, but High Overseer Lazaar and his eyes insist that the Cadian tragedy was mastered by Faustus, who sent the Paladins to spread his lies.

The Void Lords and Bloodhounds move further into Imperium Minorum, both fleets pillaging and burning as they go, one out of necessity, the other out of sheer bloodlust. Alexios is unable to determine who he can trust, and orders his Angels to turn their bolters against all invading forces.

While slowed down significantly by Alexios' naval forces and planetary garrisons, the Great Hunt eventually reaches New Constantine itself. The great spires of the Imperial Basilica burn as hunter and hunted battle in the streets of the greatest Imperial colony.

After centuries off the battlefield, serving only as a commander, Alexios decides to take to the battlefield himself to defend what is his. The Quadriga, his gravcraft command platform, flies over the burning cities escorted by jetbikes and jump pack mounted infantry. Finally, Alexios comes across Graha'nak, dismounts from his Quadriga, and battles the Beast of the Void.

I'm not quite sure how that battle would go, but Graha'nak wins, and spares Alexios' life. Graha'nak explains everything that happened, the necessity of his piracy, and the nature of the Bloodhounds' treachery. Alexios believes him, and issues new orders to his Angels to turn against the bloodhounds and ally with the Void Lords.

>>49174092
Oh!
I thought the Great Hunt was the Void Lords getting tricked into thinking the Angels of Light had gone rogue!

>>49174354
At the uninhabited world of Kar Duniash, the final battle between Angels, Void Lords, and Bloodhounds is fought. The battle is massive in scope, and it is the first real trial by fire of the Varangir Guard against traitor forces. Billions die.

At the height of this conflict, the battle of Terra comes to its climax and the Emperor is killed. The catastrophic warp storms prevent the Angels and Void Lords from chasing the Bloodhounds as they retreat with their fleet into the warp.

>>49174381
other way around

>>49135683
Fists here, I love the Child of Fire as well as Red Star and >>49138546 Thunderchild. I cant choose between them i love it all
>>49144756
>Agree on anything, the legion is full of shifting alliances between the mechanicus and the fists
>Go fast, the amount of red tape and bureaucracy in doing almost anything within the forge space is ridiculous which has lead to failing to mobilise til far too late. As Well as army tactics that rely entirely on heavy weapons and massive war fleets, all slow but powerful
>Psykers, The fists do not like psykers at all. Some still cling to the idea that when they bring marcus back he will be able to create a now almost mythical construction that he promised could replace the need for psykers to travel the warp and then purge them from the imperium

not so much something they can't do but

>Low troop count, the fists lost a huge amount of marines in the herasy and supplement their numbers with war machines and Skitarii,

>>49159988
>>49160062
>>49160087
>>49160143
Awww you guys i feel so wanted, Xun feel free to touch it (that sounds dirty) I know i don't post often enough so i'm quite accepting of people throwing ideas around for me. Sometimes i feel like a good idea i had is useless because i wasn't here to post it while it was relevant.

>>49174184
>>49174354
>>49174092
FYI Taris Ultra is Taris Sinister in IA, It's Marcus Sinistrums homeworld and post herasy is the greatest forge world where his remains reside

Tell me if i missed something i should have responded to, Xun you asked if there was anything more than more terribly updated wiki. Ask me anything

>>49175733
I'mma get my hands all up in that legion, then.

So, what's the biggest difference between the Fists of Mars and the OU Iron Hands?

And post the ideas anyway when you do come, we can always go back and throw it in.

>>49175733
>FYI Taris Ultra is Taris Sinister in IA, It's Marcus Sinistrums homeworld and post herasy is the greatest forge world where his remains reside

I figure that Imperium Minorum is the only really legion-run region of space before the Council of Titans. Everything else is just imperial worlds, so they aren't really going through Fists of Mars 'territory.' Still, something cool could/should happen when they pass through Tarsis Sinister.

Any ideas about that? Preferably that don't have too big of a butterfly effect on the rest of the campaign?

>>49176203
Well to be honest i don't know enough about the Iron hands, didn't think about them while making the Fists but now i see the obvious similarities. Id say the big difference is the relationship with the mechanicum and marcus's position as divine agent of the machine god before the herasy, which let him innovate and create freely for a long time.

Marcus is/ was quite different to Ferrus Manus, Never used melle and would rather build something to fight for him if possible. Although wasn't afraid to take the field with heavy weapons and tanks in tow. I'm not really sure what more to say, a similarity between the two is how little is written about them and maybe after we fix that other things will show themselves

>>49176566
Honestly the only similarity between them at all is that they're techy. Culturally, stylistically, aesthetically, they're very different.

What's Tarsis Sinister like?

>>49176566
Yeah, I can definitely see the major differences with Sinistrum.

So far as the rest of the legion, they use big guns, whenever possible, they also have a big tank battle on Mars. I can definitely imagine them having augmented infantry and terminators carrying heavy weapons, advancing while firing kind of feel. Maybe they use them as part of a two part strategy. You mention that they're plodding and methodical. What if they use a combination of heavy tanks, infantry, and cybernetica?

They advance slowly, seldom using APCs, instead using Vindicators, Funerus Tanks, and Land Raiders. They're less likely to use Sicaran tanks, Sinistrum only worked on the project because Xun asked for his advice on the matter.
The legion marches, implacable, with self propelled guns like Medusas and mobile thunderfire cannon keeping pace with ranks of heavy infantry.
When they get in range, they open fire with an unending fusillade, the infantry advancing, firing, beneath the shells and other heavier ordinance from the tanks.
Then, when they get up to the enemy line, jump troops come screaming out of nowhere with chem-flamers and roaring chainblades.

The big difference tactically between them pre-heresy Behemoth Guard is that the Behemoth Guard is fast moving tanks, blitzkrieg, that can also do siege work, whereas the Fists of Mars are more of a combined arms approach. They're infantrymen with a lot of tanks, as opposed to the Behemoth Guard's mounted shock army. The Fists of Mars are a glacier of ceramite and adamantium, while the Behemoth Guard are a raging stampede of metal beasts.

How does that sound to people?

>>49176637
>>49176499
>so they aren't really going through Fists of Mars 'territory.'
I know i wasn't thinking about it like that, just thought it could be interesting to do something with that stop since it's a homeworld

>What's Tarsis Sinister like?
a beautiful green planet during short summers but suffering from long, harsh winters that gives it the appearance of an ice world. During the winters horrible native animals stalk the ice and snow. Many families die not just from the cold and starvation but from being hunted by these beasts. Marcus Sinistrum was found in the deep of winter, the family that found him assumed his family had either died or abandoned him as another mouth to feed and took him in. As all primarchs do Marcus grew quickly and became a man in his X winter(how quickly do primarchs mature im not sure). Growing up he had a knack for the mechanical and made a name for himself traveling house to house fixing heaters and radios. As he grew older he made his own inventions, sensor towers that warned of incoming beasts and defense systems to keep homes safe. During the summers he made his most of the time he had to work in safety, turning scattered villages into grand cities or strongholds, mechanizing farming during the summers and creating hydroponic farms underground in the winter. When the emperor came for him he found the world Tarris not to be a dieing feral world but a beacon of light shimmering in space, cities full of light covering the planet. Marcus was not eager to leave but was in awe of his fathers might and the space ships he came on and pledge himself to the imperium immediately. Taris Sinister still benefits from Marcus's technological might, using his influence to send mechanicum to his homeworld and transform it into a great forge

Ended up turning that into more backstory than an explanation of the plant but whatever. Also should note their is something of a myth that it was infact the mechanicum that found Marcus not the emperor

>>49177184
Thats perfect Xun exactly what i hand in mind

>>49177214
Ooh, that's pretty cool. I imagine he and Xun get along pretty well, at least in their view of technology and the prerogatives of Primarchs.

>>49177274
No problem. I'm glad it suits.

Oooh, what if Tarsis Sinister has an Art Deco feel to it? The planet had been in some sort of state of technological regression, but there remained an entrenched rationalist ideal, that the universe could be understood and tamed through technology. Also increases parallelism with the Behemoth Guard, since they're WWI and a bit of German Expressionism, technology's ability to destroy, while the Fists of Mars are technology's ability to raise humanity.
(Yeah, if that's Sinistrum's take on it, then Xun is probably a lot closer than I'd been thinking.)

(For whatever reason I'm getting a strangely Ayn Rand image of the world. That may just be me needing to go to bed. I think it's the symbol of the lightbulb.)

>>49177518
>For whatever reason I'm getting a strangely Ayn Rand image of the world
When marcus was in control not so much but after leaving and sending mechanicum to continue his work of uplifting the world it would slip more and more so into this, in the 41M the world is the greatest forgeworld ever seen, filled with red tape bureaucracy and people out for themselves. Ayn Rand would be something of a socially expected worldview there

Art Deco sounds cool and i like having parallelism with the Behemoth Guard

>>49176499
Do the Void Lords raid Tarris making an enemy of the Fists? or maybe they try to ask for help here?

>>49177941
We were thinking the Fists are inbound to lay siege to Luna, to take out the Oathsworn as part of the Warmaster's ploy to make the loyalist legions fight each other.
We were thinking they get redirected to Mars to deal with the nascent Martian Civil War.

>>49177748
Groovy. I'll mess around with a character or two.

>>49178074
>>49177941
>We were thinking the Fists are inbound to lay siege to Luna
That's true they are but this is still a mechanicus inhabited world, skitarii would be around along with a a few ships. If they asked for help and got it they would have a small alley that might be enough to slow their enemy, if they raided it would be easy enough to steal supplies here as it is transitioning into a forge world but the fists would be super pissed and wouldn't forget about it

Here are the social links I've done so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4iseF_FBn8

>Bloodhounds
Pre-Heresy– The legacy of the hunter is long and storied, but is it not a waste to devote mankind’s greatest tools of war to its pursuit? That’s probably a little rich coming from us, though.
Post-Heresy– Subservience to the god of idiotic slaughter has changed you surprisingly little. Also, you’d better break out those scrub brushes because we’re about to take to that Jade Empire like a daemonette to a shrine maiden.

>Silver Spears
Pre-Heresy– Practically perfect in every way, even though our fighting style is a little peculiar. If we’re lucky, our brothers can learn to shine even brighter through our example.
Post-Heresy– Other Silver Spears? A worthy challenge. Certainly better than more daemons! Oh Slaanesh, the daemons... Just let me charge up the old rad-cannon and rearrange some of my skin.

>Warp Raiders
Pre-Heresy– We cannot imagine the xeno’s influence to be anything but harmful. We are not asking you to shy away from that which makes you strong, but merely to be mindful of your place as astartes.
Post-Heresy– Who? Oh, the Eldar sympathizers. I dirty my blade with enough of that when raiding Kor’s realm. Nothing of value was lost when they went missing.

>Void Lords
Pre-Heresy– The VIII legionnaires have lost their way, most likely due to their gene-father’s errant disposition. They may already be beyond our help. Fine to fill a tactical niche, but little else.
Post-Heresy– No, you’re doing it wrong. Of course you’re supposed to make the little ones fear you, but it should be the kind of fear a roach feels before it is crushed– not like some street beggar about to get his throat slit.

>>49178575
So the hunt comes across Tarsis Sinister, defended only by a token garrison force of Skitarii, Cybernetica, and a few commanding techmarines.

In that case it's very likely the entire world would be purged just like the other worlds they come across. That could be a very interesting topic, a primarch's homeworld being collateral, incidental damage in a battle of the heresy. Marcus' homeworld is burned and he isn't even there to defend it.

>>49178739
>Paladins of Kor
Pre-Heresy– Perhaps the lowest of all space marines. Not pitiable like the Lords or the Behemoths, but despicable in that they deny an astartes’ inherent superiority. They fail to hold themselves apart, and no amount of penance or service or whatever they love so much can ever make up for that.
Post-Heresy– Oh, enemy mine. I think I’ll burn another one of your worlds today. See you soon.

>Angels of Light
Pre-Heresy– Their achievements are truly impressive, but war is an astartes’ prime function, his reason for being. What kind of legacy do they expect to leave behind?
Post-Heresy– Where’s your solidarity now? Where are your grand works? Of course you never claimed ownership of anything, even though we all knew. But still, that infuriating smugness.

>Behemoth Guard
Pre-Heresy– The Iron Hearts are a joke in poor taste, but this is worse. Destroying the Emperor’s work is second in profanity to not trusting it in the first place. Recant this now, before it is too late.
Post-Heresy– Even now, as our own bodies fall apart, we know who is in the right. Gengrat has lost his chance at ever building up a true caste of warriors, so he might as well take solace in the efficiency of machine-men.

>Arms of Asura
Pre-Heresy– Do not be so quick to emulate the old spiritualists, brother; it goes against our liege’s philosophy. Besides, you are supposed to be warriors, are you not?
Post-Heresy– I hope you’ve something good for me today, sorcerer. If not, then get behind– you have failed yet again to acquire a warrior’s respect. Maybe get a daemon to do the fighting for you.

>>49178763
>Eyes of the Warmaster
Pre-Heresy– It is good for a primarch’s legion to be loyal and subservient. However, because of the Warmaster’s very nature, his Eyes will forever be condemned as blades in the dark, never to shine like true astartes.
Post-Heresy– Haven’t seen you on any of the raids lately... or ever, really. What’s wrong? Scared of some partisans? Planning something big and exciting? Oh well. Get back to us when you can.

>Iron Hearts
Pre-Heresy– Not astartes. Not human either, but still not our equals. We cannot allow them to seek power or status, for that will only serve as encouragement to rise against those born above them. This pattern can be observed in the histories of countless worlds.
Post-Heresy– Just fight the successors and don’t talk to us. One toe out of line, and you know exactly who will be coming for you.

>Knights Exemplar
Pre-Heresy– To devote the totality of one’s existence to the honing of skill and the upholding of honor... The Knights Exemplar need no lectures from us.
Post-Heresy– The Emperor is dead, but your glory is more alive than ever. It is a shame to see such martial excellence turned against the will of Slaanesh. Now, come. It is time to test your mettle against a true paragon.

>>49178739
>Silver Spears social link post has a Silver Spears link

Why am I not surprised, you vainglorious bastard?

>>49178752
That might have "too big of a butterfly effect" i don't know, you're right though that is quite interesting

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>>49178782
>Haven’t seen you on any of the raids lately... or ever, really. What’s wrong? Scared of some partisans? Planning something big and exciting? Oh well. Get back to us when you can.

and then half the men in his company take off their helmets and turn out to be Eyes.

>>49178074
>Galt Taranis
Large, even by Astartes standards, Taranis is Sinistrum's master of the Fulgurite Lance? A specialized unit of heavy weapon bearing terminators. Taranis had been Sinistrum's aide in the later years on Tarsis, having been drawn from the ranks of the winter guard to aid Sinistrum in his construction projects.
In the decades that followed, Taranis would turn his skill at creation to destruction, becoming a siege breaker and machine slayer of rare talent.
Ever at his master's side, Taranis would spearhead forgeworld evacuation efforts after the Heresy.

>>49178841
Two consequences I can see:

Obviously they'd need to rebuild the world, and its foundries would be unable to support the war effort until the planet is restored. This isn't as monumental and crippling a task as it might seem though, especially if they have tons of Martian refugees to repopulate the planet after the war.

The Fists of Mars would develop a very strong loathing for the Void Lords. A traitor burning your homeworld is one thing, but someone on your own side doing it is something else entirely.

>>49178752
Why would the Void Lords attack a loyal legion world? They'd know that Sinistrum is fighting Faustus on Luna. Or is it the Bloodhounds burning it after the betrayal?>>49178752

>>49178913
The idea is that the chase is pretty taxing on the Void Lords' supplies, so they have to pillage and pirate worlds they come across. The real purging happens when the Bloodhounds land on those worlds to contest the Void Lords' resupply actions, but the Void Lords are still often blamed for it.

Also the Void Lords don't know nothin about no heresy, they just know Astartes turned against them.

I'm open to alternative ideas for Tarsis Sinister.

>>49178895
Actually i quite like that
>>49178851
Sounds like Galt might be the 1st master of mars

>>49178851
>Valtek Thrao, Prefector of Tarsis Forge
Thrao had been the Lord of the legion Forge when Sinistrum was found and thus was placed in command of the fortress monastery and forge as they were constructed on Tarsis...
He's there when the burning happens. Either he survives to tell the story after fighting a guerilla war or he dies and his logs are recovered.

>>49178949
I think the Void Lords would probably not raid a legion home world for supplies. Legion home words are ridiculously well defended.
I could see them raiding outlying words, but I think they're more likely to ask for supplies, since at this point, they've found out that the Bloodhounds are nuts and are patching things up with the Angels. That and the idea of betrayal on a mass scale isn't something the OU primarchs were ready to believe, so he's likely to assume that it is only the Bloodhounds that have gone mad, in the absence of other evidence.
Could be he's getting resupplied there and the Bloodhounds decide to put an end to that and butcher Tarsis.
The Void Lords might get there too late to help or might retreat with a few survivors or something.

>>49179110
>Kerkus Perun
A belligerent and volatile commander, Perun seems almost as if he'd be more at home in another legion. On the contrary, Perun is every inch a Fist of Mars. Like all commanders in his legion, Perun is no stranger to the rites of the forge, but Perun's true skill is in his keen eye for tactics. Despite the legion's reputation for simple, if highly effective tactics, commanders such as Perun make an art of timing and target priority. Perun himself is renowned for knowing exactly when and where to strike with pinpoint bombardment and furious jump pack assaults.
In these, Perun leads from the front, thundering over the advancing lines of heavy infantry with his jump squads to sunder the enemy lines.
He weilds the great mace, which has a really cool name, and has a massive tower shield, as well as a special jump pack that incorporates a limited servo harness.
If he was a model, he'd be one of those T5 S5 monster guys who can swing a thunder hammer at initiative. Probably give his unit rage.

He could be on Mars with Sinistrum or he could also be off doing his own thing during the heresy.

>>49178843
>the other half arent so foolish to reveal themselves as infiltraitors.

>>49178949
Doesnt make much sense to raid an astarte legion homeworld though. The defences are enough that not only would you be slow if you did succeed, but they would inflict so much damage it would be pointless as you would be at a net loss of resource. You raid those who cant defend themselves for easy payoff.

>>49179353
Call the mace the Red Star

>>49179353
>>49179110
I'm getting that this is all pre heresy talk, thinking about post herasy i assume these guys all become masters

Kerkus Perun can be out on another forge world. The lore is that there is fighting across many forge worlds

>>49179559
They could maybe stop and seek aid, and hold out there for a while against the bloodhounds.

>>49170896
>I think the Eyes of the Warmaster, or at least REDACTED himself, have black skin and orange eyes, so try not to overlap

Oh, interesting. How about...

The Primarch Graha'nak was irrevocably changed by his adolescence aboard the twisting passageways of the Void God, the space hulk's many still-beating hearts bathing him in a cocktail of radioactive particles, their mutative effects quickening his adaptation to the narrow, lightless conditions of his home.

Graha'nak was forged into a peerless predator by the Void God, and his sons retain the traits that facilitated his survival of the hulk's harsh conditions. Wiry and limber by Space Marine standards, the Void Lords tend towards ashen, pallid skin, adapted to the conditions of voidbound environments. Their oculars absorb much more light than those of their fellows, as well as interacting with multiple invisible wavelengths, granting them both an impressive level of darkvision and an intimidating set of black, almost non-reflective eyes. Sharp teeth and extended fangs are common among the Void Lords, as are chitinous growths of hardened keratin, often forming vicious claws, razor-sharp spines along the forearms or legs, and even, on occasion, slender blades protruding from the Astartes' elbows. The final geneseed-quirk possessed by all Void Lords is that they possess an anomalous tissue throughout their bodies serving a similar purpose to the Betcher's Gland. The result is that the Marines' blood, when spilled in copious amounts, acts as an extremely corrosive acid.

>>49172042
>>49172259
I remember this stuff. I like the idea of their 'chapters' just being splinter fleets.

Calixisanon here. As promised in the last thread, a breakdown of the Hereticus Tenebrae is here.
>XXIII In that place there shall be a gathering,
In a specific place, someone or something gather. Quite an obvious one.
>XXIV Among them will be the deluded, the damned, and the lost,
Among said someones and somethings will be those deluded into false belief of what is happening, damned ones which could mean many things, and lost, either meaning believed dead or lost, or that they have fallen: From grace, from power, or something else.
>XXV They shall take their place beneath the light of a sun that shines not and whose power they will know not,
The place will be under the Tyrant Star.
>XXVI The herald shall return from that echoing and great place,
Someone will return from whatever lies beyond Komus
>XXVII He will return and there will be great power with him,
That someone will return with something: Great beings, hordes from unknown or unnatural power.
>XXVIII But his power shall be that of the lost and others, even the damned, shall know it not,
None of those who gather will know the full truth of this power.
>XXIX Fools will be his bearers, his coming will be the coming of ruin and death though it be not of his own making,
That someone will be brought by fools, whether they underestimate him and his power, believe they can control the power or misunderstand the path to stop him, and release him instead. Great destruction will follow, yet he is not the one doing it.
>XXX And so with all in motley and blood the players shall wait and the darkness shall pour, clawing out of a dark sun and vomit darkness into the offering bowl.
And finally, the prophesy is fulfilled, and darkness consumes the stars, swallowed by Komus, the Tyrant Star, the harbinger of the End.

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How's everyone been doing? Where are we now?

>>49184035
Fists here, i think everyone is asleep. I should be to really

>>49184567
I'm here.

>>49182888
Nice and ambiguous.

>>49184035
I think we're mostly talking about major campaigns at the moment.

>Perun as a name for a FoM guy

Excellent.

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Does anyone else sorta imagine that the Protectorate forces look like Elysians and sound like a mixture of the Starship Troopers marines and the humans from Helldiver?

>"It's time to deliver some LIBERTY and FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Prep the Democratizer Cannons, this place looks like it needs to be befriended real damn hard."

They probably aren't called an army. They have a name along the lines of the JSDF, suggesting that they're just there for defense, when there's no clear distinction between them and any other military force.

>>49185902
That's kind of magical. I'm imagining backwoods agroworlders from the Protectorate "them Xenos have the right to do what they want. As long as it's not with my daughter."

>Protectorate becoming spess murrica

Who are the Space Natives?

>>49186863
More importantly, who is going to pay for the wall?

>>49188019
The taxpayer, obviously.

FREEDOM ISN'T FREE.

>>49185902
>>49186863
>>49188019
>>49189193
Yes.

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I'm not even sure what to think of this anymore.

I think in general the Protectorate needs more detailing. I think I know a lot about how the Imperium Minorum, the Forgespace, and the Jade Empire work, politically, but I'm not really clear on the Protectorate.

>>49189911
My understanding is that Kor sets it up to have liberty and justice for all. He's pretty bro-tier, and he also seems to have the idea that Astartes are there to serve baseline humanity, sort of in that Lamenter's way. Innocent life is worth more than Astartes life. He might even go in for a "from each according to ability, to each according to need" sort of approach.
He's got a lot of xenos that are citizens and it all kind of works since there's a lot of Exodites and they keep to themselves and since he's on the outer-rim and thus pretty far away from the front lines.
The big issue is that this is 40k and being tolerant is a good way to get chaos cults and xenos wearing human skins, so there's a semi-autonomous police force called the Lawbringers, who tend to have to break the law to keep it. Kor doesn't know about this, in part because he's too idealistic to deal with it well (repressed guilt from being a chaos patsy during the Heresy, since he was on Luna fighting the Oathsworn who were innocent) and because the Lawbringers are secretly supported by the Jade Empire's Inquisitors as a means of keeping the northern border stable. There's a fair few Knights Exemplar in the Lawgivers as well, partially because they're tight with the Sky Serpents and allow plausible deniability, but also because Wild-West-Sheriff-Space-Knights are badass.

>>49190461
Okay.

So is the Protectorate run by the Paladins? Have their acquiesced power to a high council or something of that manner? Are we looking at a "The Reapers don't exist, the council says so" situation here?

I know that as of M42 Anders himself is dead, or at least MIA, after a Tyranid Hive Fleet hit Cydonia. So he's not calling the shots anymore.

>>49189422
Eh, 40K has always been satire.

Also, where the bloody hell is everyone?

Did America explode when I wasn't looking or something?

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>>49191281
>Eh, 40K has always been satire.
You mean a parody. Not sure what this iteration is parodying.

>>49191332

I'm just really confused now.

>>49191302
It sank beneath the sea.

>>49191281
I like the council idea.

>>49191281
There's an established council with representatives from each planet in Protectorate space. It's democratic and shit.

>>49192423
By democratic you mean US, Athenian, not-honestly-a-very-good-democracy kind of democratic?

>>49191332
It's both at times.

>>49192423
That's actually really similar to how the Vigil operates. Any chance the Protectorate picked it up from them?

>>49189422
Regarding what?

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>>49194839
It's pretty similar to how the Imperium operated. Imperium Minorum operates similarly: A council of high lords, a highly complex administratum, and a figurehead with autocratic authority.

We're not so different in truth, brothers.

>>49195108
Ah right, but in the Vigil each sector is governed by its own council of astartes with their human advisors, and they all defer to the High Council of Amaranth. Human members of Battlefleet Vigilance and non-mercenary military groups also get seats on the council.

>>49195234
So they're more like a confederation than a nation-state? That's neat.