Is 40k the only galactic-scale sci-fi setting where the navy

>>49070849
Did you not play Battlefleet Gothic?

The whole point is that they're basically equal as no one should be able to accomplish shit alone, ideally the both should be politically irrelevant.

>>49070849
dunno if that's true, they're just emphasized less since the lore is mostly based on the ground troops

>>49070849
This is blatantly false.

Play Battlefleet Gothic or Rogue Trader (or some of the other 40k RPGs), which are games where the Navy features immensely.

In-setting, the Guard literally cannot go anywhere or do anything without the Navy transporting them. They're a vital component and have a lot of pull that just doesn't get the spotlight that often because most of the 40k lore revolves around the ground forces.

Nigga what. The Navy holds just as much power as the Guard does. They both have a rotating seat on the High Lords, after all. They're just out of focus because BFG is out of print, so GW has no incentive to write anything about them.

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Just a reminder since this is an Imperial Navy thread.

A C'tan shard, in the Shield of Baal second book, jumped to space and flew through the void in a speed said to surpass the speed of any Imperial space vessel. As we know, C'tan shards have no thrusters or any means of acceleration. Look at this shard. It's butt naked.

Ergo, Imperial Navy ships outside of Warp travel are slow as hell. Which always makes me scratch my head whenever people have crossover threads and claim that Imperial ships are superior.

>>49072407
People say Imperium will win, but that's justified by the sheer size and power of 40k ships. in terms of frontal 1v1 most ships from any setting isn't going to take on a imperium ship as far as I'm informed.

>>49072407
>why do people jack off the Imperium as the best thing ever?

Are you new here? Reminder that we had a thread a week ago in which people tried to claim that Imperial Stormtroopers were better trained than Halo's Spartans.

>>49072407
>Ergo, Imperial Navy ships outside of Warp travel are slow as hell.

Alternatively, C'tan shards are quite capable of breaking what we would consider the laws of physics, because they're the fragments of physical gods quite capable of re-writing reality to suit their needs and desires.

But you're a shitposter deliberately trying to stir up an argument, so you already know that.

>>49072407
That's because that C'tan was moving at relativistic speeds you mongoloid. They're energy beings trapped within a shell of sled replicating nanomachines and can fly around like superman, or hurl black holes at you.

Okay, I'm going to try and get this thread back on track before it turns into yet more powerlevel nonsense. I don't want to see a nice thread about the Navy wasted, we barely get any of them anymore.

What is everyone's favorite cruiser? Can't go wrong with a nice Lunar, the workhorse of space.

>>49072522
Dictator, I know it's kinda the odd man out, but it's the first one I ever used, so I have a soft spot for it.

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>>49072522
Desu senpai, BFG made me love and appreciate the humble little dauntless. Fuckers are like pitbulls. Covered in armor and macro cannons.

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>>49072539

>>49072558
It's my bae, anon.

Treat her well.

>>49072491
> What are Skitarii

But I'm only posting this because I don't know much about the Imperial navy.

They have huge guts, and huge slave crews inside the guts, to power the huge engines that in turn power the huge weapons?

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>>49072522

>>49072539
It was my first cruiser purchase in the vidya. It's not exactly optimal for Imperials, but a quick fighter screen or bomber run was helpful every so often.

>>49072522

I don't know what category of ship they fall under, but I like those kraken things the Nids have.

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>>49072584
Correct

>>49072584
Skitarii were barely mentioned anon. We had guys claiming that Imperial Stormtroopers were better than dudes who fluffwise run at sanic' speeds in super suits.

Shit was fucked up.

But as for the navy...the issue I have with Battlefleet Gothic despite Dictator is that it was written at that mid-2000s period when 40k got stupidly grimdark. So all those massive slave crews and shit were a thing all the time.

>>49072602
You're telling me, I made a new fleet without any Dictators and played it after coming back to the game after a hiatus.

Went up against Space Marines.

I really missed that fighter screen.

>>49072632
Fucking Thunderhawks man. I imagine it'll be more of that when Tau get released.

In situations like that, you're better off taking nothing but Swords with extra turrets for your escorts. Hell, that's all I ever use them for.

>>49072655
I...really want a Battlefleet Bakka expansion before Tau.

Or at least, I want the existing fleets expanded, Orks to have more custom slots and Eldar to maybe get some Craftworld ships.

Adding new fleets can only go so far.

>>49072666
>>49072655
Addendum: I imagine Thunderhawks will be bloody murder against the Tau's inability to figure out how to punch someone, though.

But again, I really want Voss Pattern hulls and Apocalypse battleships.

>>49072522
Vengeance Grand Cruiser.
Go big or go home.

>>49072607
Probably the Big Bug category

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>>49072740
And i forgot the pic

>>49072407
This fucking DBZ shit has no place in 40k.

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>>49072801
FRIEEEEEZAAAAAAAAH!

>>49072607
Krakens are escorts (frigate or destroyer) in BFG

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>>49072522
Can't go wrong with the Mars-Class Battlecruiser.

>>49072619

Not exactly stupid grimdark because thats close to what age of sail Royal Navy ships did. They press ganged to fill the complements of their crew.

>>49072619
Yeah, but Skitarii are a reasonable comparison.

I kind of like the whole "Massive slave crews" thing myself. It keeps people from taking the setting too seriously which is the best way to approach it.

>>49072918
Man, you better point to me where you had slave crews loading guns with shells the size of two story buildings in the Royal Navy, because that shit was wack.

>>49072285
when OP says army he means spess muhreenz

>>49072801
Are you new to 40k?
DBZ bullshit has been in the canon since year dot. Fucking Primarchs.

>>49073110
Do the Primarchs fly around and shoot lazer beams?

>>49073631
A salamander librarian did in one of tje novels

I wish I was joking

>>49073066

Everything is larger in 40k. The Royal Navy in ww2 were slinging shells weighing a ton. And thats for ocean going vessels. For space faring ships, thats just going to go up exponentially.

Also, you only mentioned massive slave crews. And that by itself isnt that grimdark.

>>49070849

>Imperial Navy Grand Admiral is a High Lord of Terra
>just like the Astra Militarum Lord Commander

>less prestigious

You have the dumbs, see a doctor or a gun store

>Even without a screen of Tau battleships, Mu’gulath Bay was still well protected. Orbital stations – called kir’norslaby the Tau – bore dozens of powerful shield generators along with massed gun batteries. Each kir’norsla was the hub of a networked system of defensive satellites. Those orbital constructs enshrouded the planet beneath a lattice grid of firepower patterns, a deadly gauntlet that would destroy any enemy craft that dared to enter high orbit. Until these defences were offline, Lord Admiral Hawke would not risk ferrying troops to the ground. It was time to call upon the Space Marines, the vaunted elite of Mankind’s armies.

>Thunderhawk Gunships and boarding torpedoes delivered strike teams to the orbital stations. In the low gravity battles that followed, the Space Marines were forced to contend with

>gun turrets, protective Drones and garrisons of Fire caste warriors in void suits. Speed was necessary, for the longer it took to disable the defensive stations, the longer the defences upon Mu’gulath Bay’s surface had to prepare.

>The Adeptus Astartes deployed jump pack-equipped Assault Squads. These warriors launched themselves from strafing Thunderhawk Gunships and, using controlled blasts from their jump packs, guided themselves onto the Tau superstructures, clamping on with activated magboots. Then, leapfrogging from gun turret to gun turret, they used melta bombs to disable them. Eventually, the Space Marines blasted their way inside the complex, fighting through the defending Fire caste soldiery. With their heavy shields and large ion cannons, the kir’norsla would have proven costly obstacles for the vast Imperial battleships to engage. The Space Marines, however, showed the extent of what a small group of the Emperor’s Finest could do.

>>49074127
>Of all the Adeptus Astartes, none fought with more determination than the Raven Guard. They fumed over the loss of their Chapter Master to Shadowsun on Prefectia. Each time their bolters blasted down a foe, the sons of Corvus Corax felt vindication. It was Kayvaan Shrike, their new Chapter Master, who led the assault on the largest orbital station. He clawed his way through the hull, carving through bulkheads and defenders alike, to place timed plasma charges at its core. Upon detonation, they set off a chain reaction that tore the station apart. For days afterwards, it was as if the planet had a second sun.

--------------

>The Tau had not been unprepared. Mu’gulath Bay was far from the heart of the Tau Empire, but the colony was as fully prepared and well equipped to repel invaders as any sept world. Yet despite the constant state of alert and a wide ring of sensors that Commander Shadowsun had personally approved, massive Imperial forces had appeared upon Mu’gulath Bay’s doorstep with almost no warning. The Tau were simply stunned by the magnitude and closing speed of the impending Imperial assault. The sheer size of the invasion was beyond anything the Tau had trained for, or that they could even have imagined.

>As the Space Marines took the orbital stations offline, ending their ability to engage spacecraft, the next stage of the planetary invasion had already begun. Ancient, cathedral-topped battlecruisers entered high orbit over Mu’gulath Bay in a line formation, opening fire with their innumerable lance batteries. Their first objective was to finish off the crippled space stations. Shorn of their protective shields by the Space Marines, it was not long before each orbital weapons platform was flaring as bright as a supernova. Only then did the Imperial battleships begin their long-ranged duel with the Tau surface batteries.

>>49074132
>Several of the Imperial ships sustained massive damage, with the Lunar-class cruiser Herald of Terra being forced to leave orbit after suffering repeated ion cannon blasts. This was nothing compared to the fate of the Dauntless-class ship Will of Iron. Taking a hyper railcannon shot through its reactor, the cruiser suffered catastrophic damage as a series of internal explosions left the hulking craft listing lifelessly to port and nearly split in half. It began an inevitable death spiral, slowly being drawn down by the planet’s gravity. There was nothing Lord Admiral Hawke and 478th Battlefleet Ultima could do to save the Will of Iron,yet watching her slow, inevitable death only served to drive the rest of the fleet onwards with renewed vigour. The planet shook with the reverberation of the bombardment that followed, with many of the newly emplaced Tau installations razed to the ground.

They are certainly influential but are they effective? I say no. Going by what I posted, the Imperial commanders couldn't take on a single Tau world without incurring considerable losses and damage to their vessels despite having overwhelming numbers. The marines involvement in disabling the Tau defense stations rescued the Imperial fleet from suffering crucial damage.

Does that make the fleet the least effective firm of the Imperial armed forces?

>>49074163

Wait...so they lost ONE ship and had several damaged and that's 'Considerable losses'. They razed the tau defences in return.

>>49073631
Magnus propably do

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Don't mind, just on my way to pound your bitch from orbit.

>>49074163
Anon, 'Phyrric victory' still has the word victory in it.

>>49074181
It was the marine involvement that disabled most of those defenses, not the navy. In short, they cheated.

Also they failed to detect the Tau ambush and the hidden defenses until it was too late. Causing many transports to be lost before landing. The marines once again had to resolve the issue.

>After days of pounding strikes, the majority of the Tau guns were silenced. A few were so well protected by shield generators that they would require a more direct approach. Under the command of Kayvaan Shrike, the Space Marines used Drop Pod assaults to destroy the last few batteries that dared to engage the Imperial fleet. Only then did the first wave of atmospheric fighters and bombers enter Mu’gulath Bay’s atmosphere, hitting preselected targets. Space Marine Scouts were the first forces of the Imperium to hit the ground. Upon their signals, the vast transports and landing craft began the long process of ferrying billions of soldiers along with supporting materiel.

>>49074127
>>49074132
>>49074132
MY DICK
MOAR

But seriously, do you know how impossibly hard it is to assault a well-defended position? Greater numbers than the defender are a basic requirement and losses are to be expected; just look at the Normandy landings in ww2.

>>49074237
>With the same perfect timing that marked all of her operations, Commander Shadowsun unleashed her counter measures. Formations of Air caste fighters, previously screened from Imperial detection, suddenly appeared, seeking to intercept the incoming transports. Gun batteries hidden behind stealth fields now opened fire, turning several transports into balls of flame. From deep space, several strike forces of Tau battleships seized the opportunity to run the Imperial blockade, launching their own attack runs on the heavily troop-laden transports. The Imperium, however, had been forewarned. On Prefectia, Kayvaan Shrike had seen enough of Commander Shadowsun to know she would strike when her enemy was most vulnerable. Like clusters of angry insects, Imperial atmospheric fighters swarmed out to engage their enemy. Further Space Marine Drop Pods streaked downwards, targeting the recently revealed Tau gun batteries. The skies filled with Task Force Retribution’s transports and lander craft as the planetary invasion began in earnest.

Ask yourself, how many millions of Imperial lives were lost in the first hours of that invasion. All because of the incompetence of the Navy.

>>49072522
The Dominator-class is my favourite.

>>49074237
>It was the marine involvement that disabled most of those defenses, not the navy. In short, they cheated.

Alternatively: They have even a basic understanding of mixed warfare. You don't throw a single solution at all problems.

>>49074250

>the Imperium, however, had been forewarned. On Prefectia, Kayvaan Shrike had seen enough of Commander Shadowsun to know she would strike when her enemy was most vulnerable. Like clusters of angry insects, Imperial atmospheric fighters swarmed out to engage their enemy. Further Space Marine Drop Pods streaked downwards, targeting the recently revealed Tau gun batteries. The skies filled with Task Force Retribution’s transports and lander craft as the planetary invasion began in earnest.

You literally quoted a part saying 'Yep, the imperium knew this shit would happen and took countermeasures'

>>49074250
Carnac, nobody cares.

Go away.

>>49074278
This
combined arms wins wars, you can't defeat an enemy by throwing SEALS at it.

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>>49074285
I'm not that sure comrade

>>49074285
Space Marines are rare. You shouldn't rely on them to solve all your problems.

>>49074283
The Marines did and warned the Imperium. Again, it's relying on the marines. That's cheating. Left to their own devices, the Navy would have suffered greatly.

If you don't like that example we can bring another. The World Engine? Heard of it? If you did, then you know that the Imperial fleet failed to stop that tomb ship which caused the deaths of many worlds.

>>49074316
I dunno, it's worked for ten millennia.

Besides, budget marines like Scions exist.

>>49074344
>The Marines did and warned the Imperium. Again, it's relying on the marines. That's cheating. Left to their own devices, the Navy would have suffered greatly.

Wait, so you want the Navy to take on ground force AND space forces on it's own or it's cheating? Marines + Navy took on Space Forces + Ground Forces.

>>49074344
>the Imperial fleet failed to stop that tomb ship which caused the deaths of many worlds
The fleet nuked it with cyclonics. The Astral Knights dropped the shields.

Let's look at Hive Fleet Leviathan now.

You know, when the Navy saved the day and the Ultramarines?

>>49073110
>Fucking Primarchs.
>DBZ shit
primarchs in rogue trader are normal space marines

>>49074377
>The fleet nuked it with cyclonics. The Astral Knights dropped the shields.

Without the Astral Knights, the World Engine would have continued its way to Terra. The Fleet failed to come up with any solution in dealing with the Tomb Ship. It took a chapter of marines who defied the marine task force commander and went on their own, to stop the World Engine.

>Hive Fleet Leviathan

You mean Behemoth.

And I count blowing yourself up to get rid of the enemy as cheating. What happened to effective tactics and strategy?

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Posting the Orpheus space battle.

>>49072522

Crusader Class Cruiser. A 30k Design that was a Gothic on Steroids.

>>49073079
Marines still have an equally important navy too.

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Once again, we see here that the Imperial fleet has under-performed. This time against a foe that they crushingly outnumber. The enemy fleet had less than a quarter of the number of the Imperial sector fleet.

It took a boarding action from the Space Marines to rescue the sector fleet a disgraceful defeat.

>>49074495
>40k wanks to the Marines above all else
>posts documents attesting to this fact
>no shit sherlock

What is your fucking point? GW considers it "boring" to have the heavy naval firepower win battles. Everything has to be done at the point of a chainsword, whether or not it's fair or makes sense.

In this case, they're fighting actual Necron warships. The same kind of warships (and I think even MORE warships) than were sufficient to breach Holy Terra's security, land on MARS, loot something, and GTFO as they pleased.

I would not expect the Navy to be able to handle that. No one would. Hence the Marine-wank shit saving them.

>>49074495
No one "crushingly outnumbers" Necron warships, dude. Even the Eldar would struggle to win with even numbers, and they've got Farseers and shit to help even the tech-scale.

Necron ships versus Imperial ships is like Space Marines versus Planetary Defense Forces, the quality factor is astronomically in their favor.

>>49074556
the necrons got wiped out after they set foot on mars

>>49072542

Mk2 sucks though, it's just not useful compared to the mk1 which can catch things at range with the prow lance easily. Mechanicus upgrade with shield sharing, strong shields and rapid shield generation, even blackstone fortresses don't do shit against 3 of these.

>>49072618

What do those people even do?

>>49074684
Well, my pa said his pa always pulled from this rope, and his pa before him and so on. So far has worked i say.

>>49074647
It was three light tomb ships and the defences of Mars only managed to hit them when they came at full stop above the place where the Dragon shard is imprisoned.

>>49074795
anything else on the necrons that did that

>>49074250

It's a planetary sized invasion, 20-30 million soldiers is nothing.

>>49074872
Wait.
Isn't Imperial planetary invasions usually in the hundreds of thousands? When did it jump to millions and billions?

>>49074870
Other than the fact that they wanted to awaken or claim the Dragon Shard? Nothing.

>>49074890
that might be for a larger theater of operation
and remember numbers for this kind of stuff have always been sketchy

>>49074237
>The Allies landed airborne troops to help disable coastal batteries on D Day, how dare they cheat like that!

Do you have any idea how stupid you sound?

>>49074890
Planets are really really big anon and they are generally home to a lot of people. The Normandy landings had more than one hundred and fifty thousand men on the side of the Allies. Now take those figures from an action over a stretch of French coastline and project them onto an entire planet.

>>49075183

To be fair, depending on the numbers available, it would probably make sense to hit a single location or continent first to establish a beachhead so that troops don't need to be resupplied directly overhead from orbit. The wider the lane and larger the areas to be assaulted, the greater the corresponding casualties of the assault troops.

Then again, this is the Imperium we're talking about and they just might not care anyways.

>>49072522
Either the Gothic because I'm a Lance junkie or one of the grand cruiser designs because all of them look awesome and should have more attention in the lore because of their odd role, which suits the IN perfectly.

>>49072619
Jee anon it's like retards only go in crossover threads

>>49074424
What isnt cheating to you then? How about the battle of Gethsemane, was it cheating that the Eldar showed up at the last second? Or the battles in The Emperor Expects, did they cheat by having numerous battlefleet partake against the ork fleets?

>>49074890

Have you read ANY books about invasions of this scale? Guard deploy in the billions. So do skiitari. You should see the size of a skiitari troop carrier, it dwarfs even Battleship class vessels.

Seriously, get Adeptus Mechanicus: Skitarius as a book or audio, it's entirely about planetary invasions.

>>49072407
>Which always makes me scratch my head whenever people have crossover threads and claim that Imperial ships are superior.

There's always a case to be made, don't get me wrong. But right now I thought the consensus was this:

Star Wars Empire vs 40k Imperium: The Imperium kicks the Empire's asses, with ridiculous overkill. As in, each ordinary Space Marine being roughly equal to a Jedi Master, and Farseers and Sanctioned Psykers BTFOing Yoda and Palpatine.

In space, it reverses, with Star Wars fighters sweeping away 40k's small craft easily. Imperial Star Destroyers are much smaller than 40k cruisers but similarly armed and shielded. Thanks to hyperdrive, they can outmaneuver and wipe out an Imperium fleet.

Star Trek's ground forces consist of pajama-clad hippies. Basically no chance vs anyone. Their space navy is arguably better but much smaller. Each ship has similar shields/firepower to 40k and SW, but much much much smaller. Again they'll be wiped out by Star Wars's superior hyperdrive and overwhelmed by the Imperium's numbers and ruthlessness.

BSG's ships are very slow compared to the other settings and their ships have no shields and much less firepower. Nice fighters in their setting but no chance vs any other setting's tech in space, and they can only beat Star Trek in an infantry action.

Babylon 5 is pretty much equivalent to BSG. Against one another, it would be quite a duel between the fighters. B5 has an edge ship-to-ship; their FTL is inferior but not grossly so. On the ground, equivalent.

That's pretty much what I recall from lots of discussions like this on /tg/ and /k/. It's a fight we've had often enough that at this point there isn't all that much dispute, even if we don't all agree.

>>49072542
Anyone else just hate the ranked mode?

I wanted a ranked mode where you could get all the upgrades and favours you could get on progression. But not need to grind 45 victories with each ship to get it.

>>49074983
Humble reminder that the best troops were concentrated at Calais, as the landing was expected there because some german spies switched sides.
The regiments at the other beaches were third to fourth rate (composed of invalids and cronically ill, thus not suited as mobile units) and only resisted at Omaha beach.
Even there most legged it as soon as possible.

>>49075183
>>49075378

40k often grossly underestimates the number of troops needed for these actions.

According to the Epic Armageddon book, the third war for Armageddon involved about 250 regiments. The Soviets-- and JUST the soviets-- had that many DIVISIONS in WW2. And that was just one army in one theater of the war. Divisions are made of regiments.

They fudge it a little by being flexible about what "regiment" means but the headcounts match up more or less.

I personally up everything by a factor of ten. So in Soviet terms, you use corps or armies (depending on the era) instead of regiments. Space Marine chapters are 10,000 each. Small craft flights are 200-400 depending on type.

The ships' carrying capacity makes much more sense as well when you do this.

>>49076246
So? That does not make it 'cheating' either.

>>49076691

Yeah, I'm not getting his argument at all.

Or even how any of it translates into one branch of service being more influential than another.

The Navy uses aeronautica and orbital strikes all the time in support of the Imperial Guard. Meanwhile, the IG, stormtroopers, and Space Marines do strikes to neutralize enemy space facilities.

>>49076246

This doesn't change a damn thing. His point is that shore batteries were eliminated by airborne infantry that had infiltrated in, in support of the amphibious landing. Meanwhile, the Navy used their naval guns to conduct a shore bombardment. You play every card in the deck, and that's not cheating and certainly doesn't prove that one service is "better" than another, and combat effectiveness doesn't necessarily lead to political and cultural supremacy in any event.

It isn't that there's a flaw in your argument, it's that your argument is made out of a long list of flaws lashed together.

Twelve minutes in the Chair of Correction, two days on bread and water while you pray to the Emperor for forgiveness, and read this ancient archeotech dataslate of "Inside the Soviet Army" so you can familiarize yourself with imperial doctrine.

Only skimmed the thread so sorry if it's already been said but the Navy is only lacking in power (and it is still considerably strong) because of the need of support from the Navis Nobilite and Ad Mech to function to maximum effect.

Meanwhile the army can't leave their planets without the Navy and the Navy can wipe out armies from orbit.

Of course all the elite/special ground forces have their own transports and even warships but even they seem to be supported by Navy ships a lot of the time.

>>49076213
>Star Wars fighters sweeping away 40k's small craft easily.
The small craft that's hundreds of metres long versus the tiny flimsy TIE fighter? Lol.
>Imperial Star Destroyers are much smaller than 40k cruisers but similarly armed and shielded.
Not even SpaceBattles agrees with you, especially now the EU is officially unofficial.
>Thanks to hyperdrive, they can outmaneuver and wipe out an Imperium fleet.
Hyperdrive requires a map or else you might just fly into a star.

Sorry, Star Wars lost all versus debates when the EU disappeared.

>>49076911
Because marines have neither the resources or the doctrinal need for a large space superiority fleet.

>>49072522
Needs more missiles.

>>49072511
This.

>>49077066
>>Star Wars fighters sweeping away 40k's small craft easily.
>The small craft that's hundreds of metres long versus the tiny flimsy TIE fighter? Lol.

Star Wars fighters are capable of causing hull damage to capital ships, which 40k fighters aren't, despite the capital ships having similar overall damage and survivability. SW fighters also have vastly better maneuverability, comparable to aeronautica. 40k fighters are more like speedboats, with a small crew and great maneuverability compared to larger ships but not capable of dogfighting the way we see in SW. Survivability is less clear, but the lower overall firepower and the similar casualty counts in BFG suggest that survivability is lower as well for 40k.

Essentially, 40k fighters are comparable to Lambda shuttles or the millennium falcon in SW. And, btw, going from memory they're deployed in squadrons of 40 or so, for a total of 160 from a Dictator class cruiser (assuming it follows the 1-1-1 rule in RT). An ISD carries about 72 fighters, which sounds like less except that every ISD has them, whereas the Imperium only deploys fighters from dedicated carriers.

Like I said, we've had this fight before.

>>Imperial Star Destroyers are much smaller than 40k cruisers but similarly armed and shielded.
>Not even SpaceBattles agrees with you, especially now the EU is officially unofficial.

An ISD has sufficient firepower to render a planet uninhabitable but not actually destroy it. An Imperium Cruiser can do the same, and also can't destroy the planet. Both settings require giant super-weapon vessels to accomplish that feat. Both also have sufficient shielding and armor to weather long battles against an equivalent enemy. So weapons and shielding are broadly comparable.

Range and accuracy are "as plot requires" in both cases.

>>49077066

An ISD is about the size of an Imperial Navy escort. Those figures are still canon. In fact, most of the overall firepower information remains canon.

>>Thanks to hyperdrive, they can outmaneuver and wipe out an Imperium fleet.
>Hyperdrive requires a map or else you might just fly into a star.

Both 40k and SW require that their ships have navigation information. In scenarios where 40k invades the SW galaxy or Star Wars empire invades the 40k galaxy, this might come up. In both cases you can add a lengthy overture period where the invader needs to scout and map his targets.

Hyperdrive in Star Wars can be used within a star system, even in orbit (in TFA, you can pop out even in an atmosphere if you're crazy enough). In 40k, you have to exit the solar system, which sometimes takes a very long time if the plot demands it, but definitely limits where you can use your Warp engines. The smallest FTL-capable ships in Star Wars are individual fighters-- in 40k it's capital ships a km long.

Hyperdrive gets you across the galaxy in a matter of days/weeks. The same trip in the Warp can take years (and there's always the risk that your brains will be gnawed away by gibbering daemonic apparitions). FTL comms are real time in star wars, and take hours, days, or weeks via astropath. So a fleet in star wars has more and better scouts.

>>49072918
All navies of that time pulled that shit. In France, they developed a police state to catch deserters and force people into conscription.

>>49072881
sauce on this pic?

>>49077422

So the scenario is this. My ISD fleet sends out scouts to find the Imperial fleet. They spread their ships out among possible targets. I keep my fleet as a single tightly-bunched fist.

I can pop my entire fleet, or at least much of it, into an enemy system with only a cruiser or two as a garrison. I arrive practically on top of the Imperial ships and finish them off via vastly outnumbering them. Then I jump back out. Three hours later, the Admiral receives word that his ships were under attack.

If he keeps his whole fleet in one major base, say Port Orar or something, then I avoid that area and attack the rest of the sector, eliminating garrisons, space stations, and PDF craft.

If he tries to move his fleet, that's days or weeks during which his fleet is in the Warp during which my fleet can strike with impunity.

If he manages to stage a successful ambush, I just retrieve my fighters and make the jump to lightspeed, from orbit if necessary.

My fleet can respond and move in the time it takes him just to receive intelligence data. And I can conduct entire operations in the time it takes him to redeploy his fleet.

Tactically, Star Wars vs 40k is a draw, but strategically there's simply no question. Canon or EU, doesn't matter. It's not a knock on either setting-- it's just that different setting assumptions can make radical differences.

>>49076213
>each ordinary Space Marine being roughly equal to a Jedi Master
urm no

>>49072407
> crossover threads
Crossover threads aimed at a very young audience. The level of debate there is even lower than in the average WH-threads. What did you expect?

>>49077484

Yep. So? 40k is grimdark, stupidly grimdark in places, but the slave crews thing is pretty much straight history.

The fact that everyone did it that way in that era just shows that what we consider ridiculously dark is in its era just normal how people do business.

In that era people weren't even picky about whose countries the slave crews were grabbed from. Turkish slave galleys used captured foreign oarsmen as a matter of course. The british famously used impressment against Americans. They'd visit a port like boston on a trading/diplomatic voyage under flag of truce, then send press gangs onto shore to kidnap teens for their crews. A century before, kidnapping foreigners to fill empty billets in your slave crews was a matter of routine.

When a french ship visited lisbon, for example, the senior officers had to be careful that any portuguese crewmen aboard wouldn't use the opportunity to jump ship, escape, and reunite with their families.

And the living conditions aboard those Age of Sail ships were brutal and appalling. Like almost Russian penal battalion bad.

>>49077559

A run of the mill Jedi Master, not a council member or grandmaster like Yoda or the Emperor or Vader.

Basically, the point of equivalence is Eldar Warlocks, who have similar capabilities and fighting styles and equipment as advanced but not quite top-tier Jedi.

>>49076213

>Babylon 5 is pretty much equivalent to BSG. Against one another, it would be quite a duel between the fighters. B5 has an edge ship-to-ship; their FTL is inferior but not grossly so. On the ground, equivalent.

Are we talking the main focal races, the humans/minbari? Or guys like the Vorlons and other First Ones?

Because holy shit, if the First Ones came back on masse and decided to wreck shit, there aren't too many settings that would last a few minutes.

>>49077628
I've just seen people solely pointing to the Royal Navy as the only navy that did things recently.

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Unless the ACU drop right in front of Mars by the time the imperium can get a fleet in range it will be too late.
The most basic automated factory can shit tanks in seconds.

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Can the whole cross series arguments just fuck off for once in any goddamn discussion? Fuck's sake every time someone posts about the IN or any other space navy some other anon stirs some shit about how 40k is better than everyone else or how everyone else is better than 40k it becomes the same 'fact'-posting, conjecture, arguments that have been reposted millions of times.

There are forums out there created to specifically pander to this kind of shit, so why not take this shit and fuck off.

Getting this thread back on track, do you think Grand Cruisers are (in terms of tabletop or lore) actually useful or more of a novelty? Now, in terms of tabletop use I've heard that GCs aren't really worth taking besides the Repulsive, and with the lore they've been mostly neglected screentime-wise than the usual battleships or cruisers. However, I believe the existence of a class in-between heavy/battlecruisers and battleships is an interesting development, seeing that the AdMech could produce more of them for the same cost and throw weight than a battleship.

>>49077656

Those are called Jedi Knights, not Jedi Masters.

>>49078202
Grand Cruisers emphasise everything I dislike about the Imperial Navy in 40k, focus on broadside firepower and pretty much nothing else. The ships themselves are either just floating gun batteries or slower (if somewhat prettier) Battlecruisers with a markedly different design scheme to the navy at large, though it does make sense as the ships are much older.

I'd just like an Imperial ship built off WW2 doctrine, just imagine what'd happen when an Imperial Admiral realises he can put torpedos on his broadsides.

>>49077340
Can a fleet of ships mass scatter a planet in Star Wars? Give me canon evidence.

Not a special superweapon. A fleet, with their regular arms. The Night Lords did it with their lances!

>>49072407
>Ergo, Imperial Navy ships outside of Warp travel are slow as hell.

Are you retarded? Is this bait? Do you know what a Ctan is? For brief bursts they probably can go fast as all fuck, one took on a tyranid titan and went full DBZ on its ass flying around it at supersonic speeds shooting energy blasts (what?! It can shoot energy blasts? it doesn't have a gun!)

>>49078677
You do know there are carriers and minelayers and things.

>>49078677

Torpedos in 40k space battles are HUGE, much larger than a macro cannon shell

>>49077340
Starfighters cannot damage Capital ships in SW unless they target specific weak points. A bomber could do some damage, but that's the same in both settings.

>>49077703

Sorry, purely human vs human.

I've never seen a thread comparing Vorlons with other elder races from other series, so I think we'd have to have a few threads like that before we came to a consensus.

>>49077340

>Star Wars fighters are capable of causing hull damage to capital ships, which 40k fighters aren't

So they'll just use boarding torpedos and kill everyone on board since SW guns can't penetrate plasteel covered mesh, as demonstrated by Vader stopping lasers with his hand.

>>49077745

Yeah that's true. Mostly morons who have no idea that the British had a reputation for (comparatively) merciful treatment compared to sadistic nutjobs like the Spanish.

Another grimdark thing from the era (also done by every major country): powder monkeys. They're kids under 10 years old, often much younger, who were charged with carrying gunpowder from the magazines to the cannon. The passages were very small to minimize the risk of fire, so they had to use small children. If one suffocated, lost a limb, or died (or was raped by an older seaman) then, well, that's the price of victory, right?

Like I said, no matter how hard 40k tries, it won't ever be as grimdark as the worst eras of real-life history.

>>49079287
I'm fairly certain that Vader was using Tutaminis (Energy Absorption Force Power) when he blocked the blaster bolts with his hand. Though, I agree with you that SW Fighters can't damage capital ships.

>>49078268

A master is anyone who's taken an apprentice with the permission of the council. Or been designated a master by the council. Only a very few senior jedi make it onto the council.

The prequel trilogy's EU provides a lot of information on this, and though some of it is now non-canon there isn't anything new that IS canon to replace it.

>>49078721

No, that's my point. A 40k ship can sterilize a planet, but not actually physically destroy it. The same applies to an imperial navy ship. As with Star Wars, a barren world is all that's left. Exterminatus and Base Delta Zero are roughly similar in firepower and effect.*

The Imperium doesn't have any planet-destroying weapons like the death star, but Chaos has several (the planetkiller and activated blackstone fortresses come immediately to mind). Like the Death Star, these are plot-driven one-off superweapons. I've never seen your night lords article, but the vast weight of 40k canon contradicts it so I think that falls under the rubric of a one-off alongside stuff from the DaoT.

* The BFG exterminatus article points out that several techniques exist, so virus bombs are only one of many options. Yes, officially a cruiser has to be modified to do what an Imperial Star Destroyer can do without modification, but most people let that slide.

>>49079223

Fighters in Star Wars have destroyed capital ships. On screen. You're right that they targeted weapon points, but in BFG and RT they're not even permitted to make the attempt. Which makes sense considering how much bigger a 40k vessel is.

>>49079287

Yes, if you can somehow get a squad of space marines aboard an Imperial Star Destroyer, then they're fucked. No argument there.

But the Warp vs Hyperspace issue kind of moots that.

>>49078202

This guy >>49078677 has it right IMO. They're a good fit for Chaos fleets (which really are just old Imperial classes anyway). But I skip them for my Imperial fleets, even the Repulsive.

The problem is that you're paying battleship-class prices to build, crew, and maintain something that just manifestly isn't a battleship. I'd prefer going up a half-class and getting more shields, more hits, and much more firepower by getting an actual real Battleship. Also they're slow as fuck.

A Battlecruiser or heavy cruiser is IMO a better fit for Imperial doctrine: basically a cruiser with a very small amount of battleship-ranged punch tacked on. Perfect as a support vessel to bulk out a fleet, and can keep up with the gun line.

Now, where GCs really reign supreme are in Rogue Trader fleets. There you have all kinds of internal deck space for cargo and amenities. Plus they're more available to acquire than a Battleship or even a Battlecruiser.

Besides, you don't really mass-produce battleships anyway. A cruiser is the best balance of cost/firepower/survivability in the game. Both on the tabletop and in the setting lore. Basically, they're Age of Sail ships of the line. Battleships are designed for admirals and must-have capabilities-- their mission is to anchor a fleet and survive concentrated enemy fire. I can't see a case where I'd want four grand cruisers instead of three battleships; you'd be sacrificing that all-important survivability just to put more guns on the table, when that's the cruiser's job.

>>49077559
Space Marines are better than even Yoda. Yoda struggled to lift a god damn pillar and would get his ass murdered by bolters.

>>49079726
>Stop derailing!
>We get back on track
>Thread dies.

Lol wtf nerds

>>49077745
Like this anon said: >>49079326
But also there's the factor that England didn't actually outlaw slavery until the 21st century. The practice had been abandoned by virtue of being socially unacceptable and generally viewed as backwards and barbaric, but it WAS actually legal.

>>49070849
What the hell have you been smoking to throw out such an utterly retarded and blatantly incorrect statement?

>>49081710
The UK was one of the first western countries to bring in laws against it. The slave trade was abolished in 1807 and slavery was outlawed in the Empire in 1833. Hell, slavery was never even technically legal in England itself.

They also had a naval squadron dedicated to stopping slave ships and freeing slaves over 40 years before the US Civil War even happened.

>>49081710

Anon, you need to check your facts, this guy >>49082148 is right.

>>49077340
>>49077422
Holy shit you know fucking nothing.

Star Wars is INCREDIBLY weaker than Warhammer in space, hell it's weaker than Star Trek. Ships in Star Wars are all made out of Durasteel, which is weaker than modern titanium. We also have seen them fight in atmosphere in the Clone Wars TV show, and Star Wars turbolasers aren't even in the megatons. They're kiloton yields if even that. Meanwhile 40k ships deal in gigatons and teratons. A Lunar Cruiser is completely capable of killing a Star Destroyer with a single shot. Fighters in Star Wars aren't lethal because they're powerful, they're lethal because ships in Star Wars are complete and utter shite.

>>49082412
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

>>49082477
Wow, look at all that retconned material that was never canon in the first place because it conflicted with the movies and Clone Wars 3D TV show. Star Wars ships are only kilotons, megatons at best. THIS is canon.

https://youtu.be/e0Hf4Zend_Q

Look at all those gigantic fireballs obscuring the entire screen resulting from megaton or gigaton detonations in atmosphere where they have the oxygen to fireball!

Star Wars ships have only been powerful in the mind of deluded fanboys, and the new canon has swiftly cracked down on such idiocy. New canon material gives the durability of durasteel, the main component of hulls, as weaker than titanium.

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>>49078677
>WWII doctrine

If you mean carrier forces, they attempted that. During the mid-36th millennium, a bunch of admirals got together and convinced everyone that strikecraft were better than weapon batteries, and as such commissioned a bunch of warships based on earlier carrier designs, including the Terminus Est in a fleet modernization program called the Gaerox Prerogative. However, a lot of more 'traditional' admirals opposed the development, believing their gun-based warships were still more useful. This eventually spiraled into a quasi-civil war as the revisionists went against high command to show just how right they were. Cue them getting absolutely annihilated by the traditionalists, and then fucking off to the Eye of Terror since A) they couldn't handle being so soundly proven wrong and B) you never build something based off of a 'recovered' STC whose previous ships went traitor, since that apparently means they're inherently chaos-tainted. (Who knows how that's supposed to work)

>>49079726
In certain cases, they were actually considered battleships before the more well-known classes were officially put into service (If the HH fluff is to be believed). In terms of Imperial Fleet Doctrine, the Avenger, Vengeance and Repulsive were meant to fit more of a linebreaker role - have enough survivability and speed to punch into the enemy's line while also having the firepower to annihilate everything around them, while not putting the fleet admiral at risk by having a battleship do it instead. Meanwhile, the Exorcist (or whatever the carrier version was) was meant to be a convoy command/force recon command vessel, since you wouldn't want to risk a battleship where it wasn't exactly needed, while still having the throw weight of one available.

I do agree that in a straight fleet battle they're outclassed by battleships and way overcosted compared to cruiser lines, but the GCs still had a number of uses besides direct combat.

>>49082666
i quite like the grand cruisers on the table top with my imperials. for battlecruiser cost you get near battleship firepower and resilience.

>>49082666
>A civil war over what is basically an autistic argument between Navy neckbeards.

Is this lore suppose to be satire?

>>49086687
The debate didn't come to violence until the pro-strike craft side actually attacked first and it was discovered they had gone full traitor mode.

So it was an inevitable conflict as a large section of Warfleet Tempestus had turned to chaos, it just needed up devised along tactical lines.

It ended up being an advantage in the long haul as Battlefleet Bakka had great experience in anti-strikecraft doctrine as well as extra turret defenses. Payed off during the First Tyrannic War as nid fleets are just flying bioweapon factories.

>>49087109
*ended up divided

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>>49086687
It's probably meant to be the doctrinal arguments of IRL navies (see: Battlecruisers) turned up to 11

Actually think it'd be much cooler if they didn't go full chaos

>>49090533
there still some "chaos" ships in the imperial navy. they're just generally found in reserve fleets because they don't gel as well with current typical doctrine and superstition about them being prone too corruption. On the TT you can take murders, carnage and hades class in the imperial reserve fleet list.

>>49081710
No, you're completely wrong.

What happened was that due to mass immigration, you have new modern forms of slavery that consist of foreign gangmasters using gangs of immigrants they essentially treat as slaves; specific legislation was brought in to target those crimes. Slavery's been illegal in England and Wales for centuries. Back in the 18th century it wasn't uncommon for slaves in the Colonies to try and make it to England where they would be declared free men.