MTG Legacy Thread

Established Legacy - "Tier 1" decks
>Miracles
>Delver variants
>ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
>Death and Taxes
>Eldrazi Stompy
>Shardless BUG
>Lands
>Sneak n Show

Fairly Established Legacy - "Tier 2" decks
>LED Dredge
>Reanimator
>Infect
>Stoneblade
>Burn
>TES (The Epic Storm)
>Elves
>Painter
>Maverick
>Nic Fit
>Enchantress

Developing Legacy - "Tier 3" decks
>Goblins
>Merfolk
>High Tide
>Everything else

This is a work in progress so please suggest changes for next year's thread.

>>49056812
Aluren in there somewhere?

Maybe Food Chain?

I run two pyroblasts and a wipe away in my SB

Pyroblast are good in a lot of permission heavy matchups

Wipe away can get me out of the counterbalance top lock if I can trick them into putting 1 or 0 on top

Also the look on a painter players face when you pyroblast back is priceless

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>>49056807
>Playing?
Black Cancer
>Local meta?
Storm, Jund, Miracles, Delver, D&T mainly
>Silver bullet sideboard cards?
This card against discard decks
>Works in progress?
Tuning the Stax deck.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/budget-stax-2/

Why couldn't it be an Eternal thread so I could gush about Daretti in Vintage? WHY?!

>>49057073
It's okay, there's enough room in this thread for you and that one other person playing Vintage.

>>49057073
Because Vintage (read: MUD) makes me sad and T1 Tangle Wire makes me want to commit suicide. Feel free to gush though.

>>49057062
>Cloister
This still makes me happy beyond belief. Is 4 mana too late? By that time someone has already stripped your hand with Cabal Therapy.

About to play on xmage if anyone is interested

>>49056807

>Playing?
B/R Reanimator
>Local meta?
Lands
>Silver bullet sideboard cards?
Ashen Rider / Tidespout Tyrant
>Works in progress?
Nothing.

I could use some advice on what is best to include in the ANT sideboard. Specifically for white weenies. Between dread of night, massacre, and disfigure, I'm inclined to run massacre since it has the potential to wipe stacked hate later on if I'm stuck durdling for a bit. But it gets blocked by gaddock. Dread of Night seems great for getting thalia and revoker gone and stay gone but won't deal with canonist or gaddock unless I have two copies. Additionally, it's just out there begging to be removed if I drop it sooner than later. Disfigure handles them all but only one and mom dissaproves.

Can anyone enlighten me?

>>49057073
Vintage Bros welcome.

What's a viable deck under $100?

>>49057573
>What's a viable deck under $100?

Dredge and then buy 4 Chinaman LEDs

>>49057073
I wish I could afford Mementor, but I enjoy Dredge too, so I guess that's fine.

>>49056807
>Playing?
blazing wish
>Local meta?
too much dnt, some miracles, one guy playing shardless jund, more enchantress than I'd expect to ever see, other normal stuff
>Silver bullet sideboard cards?
I play a wishboard, so I can grab free spells like ensnare or mindbreak trap as bullets
>Works in progress?
building turbo depths, all the cards are in the mail

>>49057606
Any other options?

>>49057228
what server?

>>49057631
Pauper is literally legacy for poor people. Don't knock it until you try it.

>>49057573
For Legacy, you'd be hard-pressed to find something that cheap. You could do monoblack extreme budget Pox, or 60 Island Scoop.

>>49057606
Dredge before LEDs is still around $200.

>>49057647
I have tried it. It is ridiculously low-power.

>>49057650
I guess I'll proxy up something to play with my friends.

Is there anything like XMage for Android?

>>49057751
you can use forge or even untap.in if you want.

>>49057736
CHINA

>>49057547

You shouldn't really have trouble with white weenies, if you can't kill them before they flood the board then youre probably doing something wrong

>>49057736
>It is ridiculously low-power.
Really? With consistent t4 kills off Burn, UB Teachings, Izzet Blitz, Delver and Boggles?

>Playing?
LED Dredge and Belcher, ordered Villa Zheng manabase for TES and will give it a spin next month.
>Local meta?
Pretty mixed, on any given day a combination of Grixis/RUG Delver, Shardless, Lands, Burn, Eldrazi, Jund, Infect, some Standstill variant(s) and ANT. No Miracles fortunately, although Shardless goes to time often enough too.
>Silver bullet sideboard cards?
Telemin Performance in Belcher wishboard for instakilling Lands and Storm and taking SNT's Emrakul or Griselbrand, both Reforge the Soul and Diminishing Returns for wheeling opponent out of hate cards and trying to hit Belcher in matchups where goblins won't do. Pyroclasm for Empty off the mirror or Storm, might swap it for Grapeshot though since I've had games where I've rebuilt a wish hand when an opponent was left to 4-6 life from Goblins and could've finished him off.

>>49058020
A fair point. I must be over thinking it.

>>49057430
What is the advantage of B/R over U/B, besides budget?

Are there any cheap-ish decks that fuck with Miracles? The meta at my shop is becoming pretty stagnant, and I want a deck so people stay on their toes.

atm I'm on UB reanimator, not the easiest matchup. Been thinking about manaless dredge, but I'm not sure how it fares against Miracles. I'm guessing it depends alot on the specific build in question.

>>49058005
How the hell do you use Untap.in? I can't get it to work.

>>49058552
The problem with Manaless is that without playing the pitch FoW build which costs about the same as regular LED Dredge without any competitive upside is that it folds to any and all sideboard bullets If Miracles digs a Rest in Peace by turn 3, the game's over. Burn is probably your best bet, just stick 4 Exquisite Firecraft to your side and you should be set, it's not like Miracles ever wins a race without the countertop setup, which you can power through if you sequence your plays correctly.

>>49058552
If you have cheap fatties laying around, apparently 12 Post takes a steaming dump on people running Miracles.

>>49058601
I actually own 4x Force of Will, so I could go blue dredge.

LED is unfortunately mad expensive right now, which is the reason why I would go manaless instead.

I'd rather not play burn.

>>49058666
The big mana decks should be effective, but I have so little of the pieces I'd rather not go that route. Unfortunately, it seems to be the only kind of decks people suggest that beat Miracles.

>>49058443
Nothing. I only did it for budget reasons.

>>49058586
I thought you could ue untap.in on android o well I guess theres still forge.

>>49056812
I think splitting legacy into tiers the same way modern does is a little misleading. There are tiers, to be sure, but I view it a little differently. They are less reflective of power level than in modern. Tier 1 is decks you need to be prepared to face at every tournament. Dredge is included in this, because it will get you if you're ill prepared. Everything else is tier 2, no tier 3. Decks you should know about. There are tons of them. And any time you play against one, it's likely piloted by someone who is devoted to the deck and thus an expert. So they stand a real chance of winning. There are a handful of decks that should be classified below this, but for the most part they are outdated lists, like The Mighty Quinn that haven't been relevant in years.

>>49059553
Honestly tiers just don't mean a shit, since people are using them in confusing manner ALL THE TIME. They just can't agree on one definition so might as well not use them at all. Same goes for archetypes; people just keep messing them up so you might as well not use them at all.

Imo it's just easier to look at established lists as decks to beat and keep everything else separate.

>>49059318
I meant I can't get it to work in general

>>49059815
That's kind of what I was trying to get at. There are a handful of highly popular decks that you can reasonably expect to play against at every tournament. Everything else is "established".

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>>49057165
>>49057062
>Cloister
This is why you don't use cloister buddy, unless you like going -7 for no reason

At least if cabals discard you they'll end up in the Graveyard, but if your cloister gets destroyed you lose everything and it stays in the removed from play pile, utterly inaccessible and lost to the ages. Legend has it there are still some hands from Pro Tour games that have been kept face-down in a separate deck box never to be used or revealed to the light of day, like a foreboding crypt warning them to never include Cloister in their deck.

>>49059553
Hence why I put them in quotes. Legacy doesn't have tiers like Modern, more of "expect this" and "count on seeing this" and "you may see this".

>>49060416
>>removed from play pile
Haven't heard anyone refer to the exile zone like this in a looong time

>>utterly inaccessible
Technically false, but I like the dramatic effect.

>>49061284
Why not just refer to it as an indicator of metagame percentage, similar to the modern tiers? E.g. total, day 2 and online presence.

So what are the chances legacy gets some spicy tech in kaladesh?

>>49061987
Not sure, but hopefully there should be lots of exciting new artifacts in that set.

>>49061987
Just the same as any set.

>>49061987
2.6%, I reckon.

>>49061987
Metalcraft is returning. Screencap this.

>>49062125
I honestly wouldn't be surprised

>>49062375
>artifact themed block coming up
>clues a thing in previous block
>nothing with Metalcraft turned out busted the first time around
>easily scalable power level

Seems legit.

>>49062125
Its already been confirmed that theres no returning non evergreen mechanics

>>49061987
Tinker reprint when?

>>49059553
>Tier 1 is decks you need to be prepared to face at every tournament. Dredge is included in this, because it will get you if you're ill prepared.
Tier 1 is decks you're expected to face in a tournament. This does not include dredge.

>>49062466
>nothing with Metal craft turned out busted

>>49057165
Spot the storm player
Vintage MUD is the superior master race

>>49062885
Actually I think in large tournaments it's very reasonable to expect to face dredge. The very thing we were talking about is how tiers in legacy don't quite equate to tiers in other formats. I hesitate to call them "tiers" at all. But Dredge is a deck that warrants preparation in the form of sideboard slots. Therefore, everyone should be prepared to play against it at a given tournament. It is cheap and powerful vs unprepared opponents. It should be included in the "Group of Decks Every Legacy Player Should Be Prepared to Play Against", which is analogous to "Tier 1" in other formats.

>>49063024
Name one card.

>>49063024
Strong =/= broken.

>>49063147
Tiers are based on usage and results. It has always been that way. This is true for all formats. Legacy isn't unique in this regard

>But Dredge is a deck that warrants preparation in the form of sideboard slots.
No it doesn't because it doesn't see a lot of play.
Look at current lists of decks. No one is packing dedicated dredge hate, because players know that dredge is barely a thing anymore. And even if a player does face dredge, he can expect that he will only ever play against one in any given event.


> It should be included in the "Group of Decks Every Legacy Player Should Be Prepared to Play Against", which is analogous to "Tier 1" in other formats.

A player should learn how to play against dredge, but to prepare a sideboard for it? Hardly.

>>49063414
I 100% agree that you should have sideboard slots for dredge in the format of universal graveyard hate. Not only can dredge actually win if you don't prepare for it, some of the other cards are also great in other matchups

>>49063506
Yes, but you're generally playing universal graveyard hate with other decks in mind, it's just also happens to hit dredge.

>>49063506
>>49063572
Yeah that's my point, if you have a sideboard with no graveyard hate I'm sure your gonna end up in a bad spot at some point

>>49063414
I'm combing throuhg results on MTGtop8 and having a hard time finding decks that don't have some number of dedicated grave-haste cards. Decks that can reliably race usually don;t have it and that's about it. The fact that these hate pieces splash hate other decks like ANT doesn't mean they aren't put in the board with dredge in mInd. The points I'm trying to make is that there are tiers in legacy but anyone trying to get into the format should be concerned with a set of decks that is not precisely equal to set of decks that are most popular/powerful

>>49063625
I'm talking about dedicated dredge hate. The majority of lists plays graveyard hate, obviously, because so many decks use the graveyard in some way, but they're generally there for other decks.

>The fact that these hate pieces splash hate other decks like ANT doesn't mean they aren't put in the board with dredge in mInd.

It doesn't mean they had dredge in mind when they put it in their side either. They're mostly likely thinking about the most popular decks in the format, you know, decks you expect to see in an event.

>>49063704
>>49063704
what do you consider dedicated dredge hate if normal ass graveyard hate doens't fall into that category? I'm seeing Leyline of the Void, RIP, Containment Priest, Surgical Extraction, Grafdiggers Cage, etc in lots of decks. I realize these cards also hurt other decks. But the only common non-dredge deck that uses the graveyard in an amount substantial enough to warrant sideboarding that hate in is ANT. And Miracles isn't playing RIP for just the ANT matchup. That's wwhat Flusterstorm is for. Eldrazi isn't sideboarding 4 Leyline of the Void for the Storm Matchup. that's what maindeck Chalice and thorn fromthe board are for.

>>49056812
4c Loam is at least as established as Maverick, and certainly more established than enchantress. Also, Sneak and Show is not a tier 1 deck. Show variants haven't been very popular since dig got banned.

>>49063894
As a caveat I'd put Reanimator in the same category as drdge in decks you need to be prepared for. Heavily graveyard depedndant decks

>>49057165
Shops is life. Also t1 Tangle Wire is a sign of a bad shops player. You gotta get value out of your Tangle wires.

>>49063894

Grafdiggers Cage, LotV, Rip, are the best cards against dredge. Every deck that plays white plays rip. but Cage and LotV are cards that see less play. Surgical extraction isn't dredge hate as dredge can easily beat it. Containment priest is good too but thats more for show and tell decks.

> And Miracles isn't playing RIP for just the ANT matchup.
Lands, and really, because they can. RIP is good against a shit ton of decks.

>Eldrazi isn't sideboarding 4 Leyline of the Void for the Storm Matchup.
Lands.

>>49056812
Oh yeah. And MUD is a solid tier 2 deck.

>>49062885
Definitely faced dredge in Day 2 of GP Columbus. Also, you will always see dredge in local metas. It's relatively cheap and does neat, big things.

>>49064101
> Also, you will always see dredge in local metas. It's relatively cheap and does neat, big things.
I never see dredge in my local meta. They've all moved on to storm.

>>49064002
Spent some time wondering why you thought Liliana of the Veil qualified as grave hate. Then it hit me.

>>49064118
Lucky you. There is still too much dredge in my local meta. Not as bad as the hordes of burn, however.

>>49064181
Your meta must be new or something. Burn and dredge are rare around here. There's a lot of competitive Legacy players in my area.

>>49063385
Psh, tell that to developer team. A guy giving one mana at 1cmc is deemed to be too broken in standard.

>>49064002
Lands isn't exactly a common matchup either

>>49064255
Look at the metagame at mtgtop8. It's much more common than dredge, and you think they're sideboarding for dredge?

>>49064127
I don't get it. Please enlighten me.

>>49064216
It is fairly new. At major, statewide events we get better diversity, but dailies always have burn and always have dredge. I have to pack 2 warmths in the side of loam to survive.

>>49064276
Uhhh. Doesn't mtgtop8 count in mtgo results? And with quantity of those, they pretty much warp the entire meta on that site?

>>49064337
He thought LotV was referring to liliana of the veil instead of Leyline of the Void

>>49064369
You can view live events only for the metagame breakdown. Lands still take up a larger part of the metagame than dredge.

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>>49064378
Fuck me. Didn't make that connection even under the context.

>>49064425
I made what any reasonable man would do and only checked major events.... Like you would expect that is significant compared to stagnant local metas and no, lands doesn't seem to have bigger metashare than dredge.

But it's just semantics and bottom line is you have to have graveyard hate in sideboard in legacy. For obvious reasons.

>>49064497
Dude, look at the metagame under major events closely. RUG Delver? Maverick? Stoneblade? There's no date cutoff.

>>49064637
Yeah, I'm just kidding here. It was the one with biggest dredge hits.

But something feels off with the mtgtop8 metashare anyway.

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I'm rebuilding pic related to be current with today's metagame. Aside from minor cosmetic changes, I want to cut old decks and add in new ones. Eldrazi comes to mind as a new addition. Drop me some suggestions.

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>wizards will never make another infect block
>wizards will never make another block of slivers that isnt shit.

>>49059553
I actually know a guy who built The Mighty Quinn recently.

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>>49064881
We need more slivers. The legions kind.

>>49056812
Nic Fit in tier 2

>>49064881
dude stop posting this mark rosewater designed the infect mechanic and has stated how much he likes it. redditfags jizz about return to new phyrexia like once a week. it's happening.
slivers might not come back, but they're gay as fuck anyway, just like all tribal decks

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>>49064881
>Wizards finally goes back to Phyrexia
>new keyword 'Corrupt' reads "This creature deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters."

>>49064979
that's literally just wither, you tard

>>49065000
Fuck, it is, isn't it.

>>49065000
>>49065023
To be fair, I can't think of a single Wither card off the top of my head that's played

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>>49064977
>>49064979
>tfw been out of the loop and just looked this up
>tfw it is real

>>49065063
>wither: shadowmoor, 2008
>infect: scars of mirrodin, 2010

as much as I disagree with wotc's views on what's fun, they like infect at least.

How essential are rishardin ports for death and taxes? I own just about everything else in the deck and want to give it a spin

>>49056812
Tiers don't mean shit in Legacy where a Pox expert can 5-0 an average Miracles player.

>>49065545
Essential. The deck doesn't function without them

>>49065419
Infect is fucking stupid

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>>49065889
>I just lost to a infect deck the post

>>49065969
>Implying infect isn't retarded mechanic

I'll let you in on a secret. It is. But I'm not going to lose my shit over it.

>>49065889
Infect is fantastic when you're the only one playing it in an EDH game with three other people.

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>>49066088
>he can't deal with some 1/1s

>>49066479
>he can't deal with 1/1s on turn 1 that have back up and will become larger than 1/1s next turn
Oh, that doesn't sound so stupid now does it?

>>49058552
Burn or RackPox.
Burn leaves Miracles at 2-4 consistently game one, post sideboard with 4x Exquisite Firecrafts it should be easy game.
RackPox is capable of shit like G1T1 IoK on Top+Surgical and without the lock it doesn't care about you countering their shit, that still advances their gameplan.

>>49065545
>>49065619
I know someone who prefers ghost quarters to ports. He does very well with it. I would run ports if I ran the deck, but ghost quarters are a real replacement.

>>49066644
I fail to see how it's an replacement. I get that you can just essentially play 8 wastelands against delver decks, but against everything else port seems to do much more.

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>>49066574
Sounds Like a White Weenie or Mono Green Player that cant deal with it like blue or red. Stay butthurt.

>>49067753
Why play blue OR red, when you could play blue AND red? Furthermore, why play blue AND red when you could sell your deck to build foil Dredge and tell Infect to take your massive dong down to the hilt?

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>>49067844
Nice dubs but fuck those prices for that deck thats almost as bad when it comes to price as some legacy or vintage decks.

>>49067753
Maybe you should look at who posted it perhaps? I do believe it says "Esper miracles guy"

Bumping this >>49064822

>>49068206
I don't recall seeing Delver there, I'd put Delver on there but I'm not a funny guy so I'm not sure you'd go about it

>People playing on xmage
>don't play vintage
is like if they were idiots

>>49068274
it's under
>I just want to win
or something

>>49068169
>decks I have a bad matchup against are dumb and everyone who pilots them is a poo-poo head

>>49069162
Odd interpretation of my words. I infect in all formats not just legacy. In legacy however it is the most bearable. I don't know how difficult the deck is too pilot but I don't imagine it's super high level. Lots of the cards printed for infect are fair, but shit like G for 1/1 infect is fucking dumb or 1U for 1/1 unblock able infect is stupid. I'd hate it so much less if it was just poison. Poison doesn't trigger me it's the stupid combination of 2 abilities that both had appropriately costed, if not overcosted, creatures. People have thing they hate , I'm sure you do as well, and this just happens to be something I vehemently hate.

Inb4
>lmao XD ur so bootybothered my sides hurt kekekekek

>>49069374
This is probably going to sound dumb as fuck, but can't you just Terminus and wipe their field if they threaten to kill? I know it's a huge blow-out against Dredge but Infect is actually one the decks that I've hardly played against. Unlike in Modern, where Infect is easy to buy into and even easier to use, Legacy's Infect feels like a ghost deck. Every time I think I hear about it, it's never there.

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I know this isn't the place for this, but I didn't want to waste a thread for this one question. Plus, I know this set was built for Legacy/Modern players, so figured this would be a good place to ask.

Bought a full set of Origins commons when it first came out for like $10. Did it to make an instant cube to play draft with friends. Was a lot of fun for a group of people to play casual MtG for cheap.

How would this work as an instant cube? It seems like the colors stick with similar themes. $30 is about the max I would spend. Also, I'm working with a base of zero cards besides the Origins ones I mentioned.

>>49069791
If you're interested in making a cube for cheap, have you considered printing out proxies of the MTGO Vintage Cube?

>>49069791
They'll have access to:
>Counterspell
>Kird Ape
>Deep Analysis
>Man-o'-War
>Innocent Blood
>Nimble Mongoose

Just to name a few. I've never done Cube so if you think they'll play okay with these cards, I say go for it.

>>49069893
Actually, I have. Is there a way I could that looks nice, but is still fairly cheap? No print shop will print them because of copyright, and I would not know where to find good copies.

I'd be more than willing to print, cut and sleeve them if I knew what to do.

>>49069505
I don't always have everything I need, it's not always possible for me to do that. It's generally easy for the infect players to tell as well. I haven't played the deck a whole lot but I've watched a shit ton of games of it so I have a pretty okay idea. They say infect infect is favoured but honestly it feels like a coin flip for me. It's either I can stop them and do stuff or they kill me because they have protection and I don't have terminus. Hell sometimes when I'm on the play I do the usual fetch for island play top, then they do their turn and play elf, If I don't have terminus or swords that turn I lose, and if I don't and I still don't have the pieces, I definitely lose.

>>49069950
This site has good images, and you can choose the printing that you like: http://magiccards.info/

This site has the current cube list: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/5936

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http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dead-already/

Taking this to a legacy night next week. Looking for suggestions for discard/sacrifice for draw cards or mana ramp to speed up the deck. Is lake of dead worth it if I have culling the weak?

>>49071048
No changes, it's perfect. I really like the Coat of Arms tech. Lake of the dead is definitely worth it. I would run the full set if I were you.

>>49071048
This looks...insanely fun. I like the idea of the multiple variety of fatties. I can't help but think that Lilliana might actually be great in that deck

>>49071048
You should probably decide to go with 4 Coffers or 4 Lake of the Dead. If you go with Coffers throw in an Urborg or two.

>>49064979
>Wizards goes back to new phyrexia
>the number of infect counters is changed to 15

>>49068274
Haven't checked, but it's probably under (canadian) treshold or some variation.

>>49056812

Wait, do people not play 12-post? I'm surprised, I thought it had a good matchup against miracles, which is one of the more popular decks in the format. Seems like it'd be a surefire counter-pick.

>>49072133
>Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
I see this in mono black decks all the time and I dont really get why. is this so I can sacrifice lake of dead with lake of dead?

>>49072975
So you have more swamps for Coffers (LotD and CC count as swamps then).

>>49072975
Urborg turns your coffers into another swamp, which gets you an extra mana.

It's also secret tech against Song of the Dryads.

>>49073064
>>49073073
Nice alright, might be worth a few more artifact lands then, I have a couple Urborg I could add and a phyrexian Tower I was considering

>>49072777
It folds to combo and even Delver variants with enough disruption, especially RUG.

>>49067065
Most decks don't have more than 1 or 2 basics. Even then, they fetch out basics first to avoid getting wasted. At that point you are just strip mining them, which is much better than porting them. I think it depends on your meta, but I feel that generally ghost quarters will be better.

>>49073100
>phyrexian tower
Whoa now, let's not get too ahead of ourselves and start putting in shitty cards that shouldn't ever be played.

>>49073220
Whoa man. Have you ever Phyrexian Towered a Veteran Explorer? Shit is nuts.

>>49068755
I, for one, like practicing with a deck that has the potential to actually be assembled one day

>>49071048
Lake of the Dead and Cabal Coffers are a nonbo. I would decide on either of them, rather than both.

>>49073371
yeah i agree, cut those, added another buried alive and victimize

Im trying to find non basic lands worth anything in a monoblack deck

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>>49071048
>the description doesn't read "You can't kill me, Victor... I'm already dead."
Missed opportunity, pal. But there's so much good Skeleton and Zombie flavor here that I'll forgive the shortcoming.

>>49073263
>Phyrexian Towering a Veteran Explorer
Pic related.

>>49073263
>>49075107
Try using Culling the Weak on a vetearn explorer and putting that 6 mana towards going off with doomsday. That makes me erect. Too bad my vet doomsday deck is still wildly incontinent.

This version was the least bad http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/veternal-explorer-doomsday/

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>>49075244
>>incontinent veteran

>>49072162
what? they don't do functional errata. that would just be a new mechanic. and for the hundredth time, wotc likes infect.

>>49072162
More like
>all infect dudes start at cmc 3
>no inkmoth reprint
>colorless, one drop hoser that removes all poison counters and prevents them

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>>49075722
>Melira gets a reprint at common
>1U Instant - exile all creatures with Infect and remove all poison counters and -1/-1 counters from all permanents. You can't gain poison counters for the rest of the match.

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>>49075244
>3 Burning Wish
>3 Doomsday
>mfw 6 copies of Doomsday

>>49076219
My normal DDFT list runs 4 wishes but I cut one to try to cram vets into that version.

>>49076555
is the vet build strictly worse than the normal one?
I love Cabal Therapy + Vet.

>>49076910
Hard to say. It's very untuned. Definitely a brew. I havent been able to do enough testing with it. It can do some very powerful things, like turn 1 vet, turn 2 therapy, flashback therapy, kill them. Vets make playing vs mana denial decks a cinch. But right now, I'd say yes it's worse. Doesn't mean it couldn't be tuned and made to approach the same level of viability.

>>49061987
guaranteed
maro said he's bringing back some old mechanic that he had to bed RnD to let them use and he said it was similar in power to infect so I expect something like Affinity to start showing up in legacy

>>49077228
>affinity for poison
>poisoncraft
>living infect
>~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player. Infect. Storm.

Just spit balling.

Why doesn't Dredge run brainstorm? Draw 3 seems p good to me

>>49077680
Draw 4 is better. Doesn't facilitate discard either.

>>49077700
True, just seems better than careful study

>>49077680
It's more about looting than getting an extra card deep into the deck. Careful Study allows me to discard double Grave Troll. Then I can crack my (presumably resolved) LED and flashback Faithless. If I don't have LED, I can just Dredge on my draw step. Brainstorm requires me to have LED to put cards into my graveyard for Dredging. The draw three IS nice, but again, more about looting than getting an extra draw off a card.

>>49077718
Discard is huge my man. Drawing cards won't help much unless you have a dredger in the graveyard. Saves space to have both functions on the same card.

>>49069950

>no print shop will print proxies of magic cards

Wtf nigga go to the FedEx office store I've printed proxies a million times there

Saving grace bump.

Well, I did it. I ordered from villa zheng.

I'm getting 4 badlands, 4 underground seas, and 4 force of wills.

I'll let you guys know if he's legit or a fraud

>>49080743
If he's legit, I'm ordering 4 LEDs. How's his pricing?

>>49080783
$2.8 each plus 5 for shipping or something like that

>>49080743
cool. how long until you get them?

>>49080743
My man, I played some TES today with 100% bootleg manabase, my friend didn't even bat an eye.

>>49080795
Damn prices like that make me wonder if buying real ones was worth it.

What's the fucking problem with banning people for using proxies of cards on the reserved list? It's not like Wizards gets any money from the secondary market when these sell and the cards aren't in packs so why does it matter? Unless of course they're colluding with someone

>>49081262
Because then, people would trade out proxies and some would think that they were real, which would devalue the reserved cards, which would make a few 'collectors' (aka autists who think they can play stocks with a children's card game) upset

>>49081262
Star of David Games: it's no (((coincidence))) that we bought stockpiles of Sarkhan Dragonspeaker a day before the prices skyrocketed

>>49081499
I've always wondered how much they collude with Wizards
I don't get WHY wizards would it though, it seems like they're making enough money off reprints and standard
Even if they took a percentage from the sellings of important legacy cards like beta duals, it still seems like it'd be an insignificant amount of money compared to what they'd make by selling packs
Is the reserved list even a legally binding agreement? It just sounds like some shit they said and it seems like it's biting them in the ass

>>49081587
My personal theory is that they hate all of us single buying competitive players, and would rather just sell right to casuals who have no idea how much money wizards is making off of them.

The whole magic economy looks very much like a pyramid scheme from where i'm sitting, with older cards only going up, and WOTC making it very hard to trade upwards if you are a new/semi-new player.

>>49081587
a bunch of collectors are actually wizards employees.
dont you think those have hundreds and hundreds of duals and power nine stored on their basement? the longer they can keeo the bubble going, the bigger is their retirement

>>49081587
I think all the hoarding autists will just lose their mind if the Reserve List is abolished, because that means Wizards might (read: MIGHT) reprint those cards in the future. Granted, while I don't ever see any card from the Reserved List being reprinted for Standard ever, it opens it up to Eternal and Modern Masters sets.

Either way it's not legally binding and it's a total crock of horseshit. Who the fuck is going to pay $2400 for a Beta Underground Sea when they could spend $20 and get a playset of incredibly convincing proxies?

>>49081645
>incredibly convincing proxies
that's a little strong. they're ok, though.

I'd like to hear some slightly more thoughtful opinions on this. So there has definitely been some evidence of insider information being passed around regarding the secondary market. Is it really the root cause for the upholding of the reserve list or only enabled by its existence? Does anyone think it possible that wizards has no intrest in abolishing the reserve list for (for lack of a better way to put it) game play reasons? To help illustrate my point, consider the following: why would anyone be interested in playing serum visions when there is a pile of cheap recalls sitting under the glass at the shop. Or how would new players feel about the new sets when others are sporting some of the more brutal cards from the past? One could argue that this is already a thing with modern being as prevalent as it is, but I would suggest that the gap in power is far smaller than it could be.

Thoughts?

>>49081642
This makes sense
>>49081632
this also makes sense
>>49081645
How many hoarding autists are there anyway? Besides, their cards aren't devalued that much by printing new ones, most people that really needed the cards just bought the RU versions anyway, and the prices of those wouldn't go down that much. There's just 0 fucking reason to not do it, they would make an absolute assload of money by reprinting them

>>49081645

with regards to the proxies, the only thing that bothers me are the proxies of cards that cost sub-$20, things like Enlightened Tutor, Fetches (the reprinted ones), or cards on the border like Wasteland, because I can see someone shelling out that amount for a card on ebay but then getting burned when it turns out it was a proxy (or not even knowing it was a proxy when they got it and finding out later when they try to trade it).

Would you still get DQ'd if you honestly had bought a proxied card off ebay and you paid full price and didn't know?

>>49081786
Depends on the judge, but I think that they are supposed to let you buy a replacement from one of their friendly vendors, or just replace it with a basic

>>49081724
To clarify: my examples are a bit exaggerated. Like /dredge/ guy mentioned, I wouldn't expect the power nine or whathaveyou to be reprinted enmass.

>>49081724
I thought that it was for a long time but it doesn't really add up. It just doesn't seem profitable enough for them to do it. I think a more likely situation is that they have a bunch of old cards stored somewhere and that people on the inside (not necessarily the company as a whole) are trying to sell them off for a shit ton of money
I think maybe SCG wanted a cut of the money but the people at wizards figured that if the prices spiked on the cards they would lose a significant amount of money and so decided to give away insider information instead

>>49081786
I saw it happen at SCG Worcester. A kid had a deck with a counterfeit manabase. Said he'd borrowed the deck from a friend and didn't know. The judges STRONGLY SUGGESTED that he drop,nor he might face a dq. He dropped. I think this is fine on cases where they really didn't know. If you can prove otherwise, a dq is probably needed, because that's what wizards says to do.

>>49081910
How did they prove his manabase was fake? Did someone call him out and have a judge look at it or was it a deck check?

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So for those who don't know, I'm new to Legacy and I've been practicing Black Stax, as suggested by the flowchart (I hate my opponent, and I want to play a deck that is obviously built for the purpose of making him regret playing magic.) But I played against a funky brew on Xmage that was a mix of White D&T and Stax, where he put even more emphasis on cancer with cards like Crucible of Worlds (combos with Wasteland). Do you think there's any point in tuning D&T for more cancer, or should I just go full retard like I've been doing? Or just give in and play D&T? I like having my opponent concede to a hard lock because he lost all hope, rather than giving him the satisfaction of being beaten down by "fair" creatures.
My deck for reference.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/budget-stax-2/

>>49082169
play white stax, it's better

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>>49081936
I really wonder about this as well. Proxies have gotten very good lately. Take for instance these two. One is fake. Unless the judge has a real copy available to compare with, it's becoming increasingly more difficult to spot fakes. Granted, I haven't touched any, I only know them from pictures. It could be that the texture is all wrong.

>>49082261
it's pretty easy to tell that the second one is fake, the text is thicker than normal cards, the set symbol is fucked, and in some spots on the art you can see the grains in the paper, whereas its smooth on a real one
they're getting better but they aren't great

>>49082169
I think white is better for stax so it may be a good idea. You'd have access to enlightened tutor for fetching out whatever artifacts or enchantments you desire to run. Flagstones of Troikair is also a thing if your into Smokestack.

>>49082261
I remember seeing this. The card on the right is fake and you can tell by the darkness of the ink. It also looks like it has a different sheen to it.

>>49082169
Have you tried combining white AND black?

>>49082298
>I'm playing against some fag
>Better look at al the names, text, symbols and artist names on his cards that actually paying atenttion to the game
How autist shold anyone be to do that?

>>49082334
If running black and white, the mana base quickly becomes all nonbasics, which translates to an auto loss against cards that hate on non-basic lands. The mirror matchup can be decided on who's playing basics. Have you ever faced a Wasteland + Crucible lock? Basics are love, basics are life.

>>49082261
I've always been kinda a push over when it comes to proxies. I mean I don't want to be that guy who needs this win so badly he's going to stall the match to get a judge to check it or ask to see his deck or specific cards at the end of a match or middle of one. Like what if the guy was honestly screwed over and I ruined his chances at a tournament? I've always felt that the right thing to do would be to play the match out then get a judge but thankfully I've never had a run in with proxies at a tournament.

>>49082261
I took that pic. The texture is indeed wrong, but it may not be obvious to the average player.

>>49082489
I feel like there's a big difference between the average player and the average legacy player, though. nobody's playing with fake distended mind benders (or whatever's popular in standard, I pay zero attention to it).

>>49082652
Say what you will about Siege Rhino, but I unironically miss the glory days of Theros KTK Standard. Mono-red Soldier Goblin beats was the most fun Standard deck I've ever played.

>>49082691
oh I miss it too. nothing has felt quite the same as ending all my matches 1-0-1. now that I think about it, is there a slower wincon for miracles? that'd be something I could get excited about.

>>49082652
Yeah, that was a bit vague. I meant it's good enough to fool some people.

>>49082788
Just out Modern Taking Turns for Legacy and win by ticking up Jace Beleren. It'll take anywhere from 45 to 50 turns if you get the combo going via chaining Elixir of Immortality. Might as well toss in High Tide too for good spirits.

Or you could be a real dick and try to win via Darksteel Reactor.

>>49082788
Splash green for helix pinnacle.

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>>49082923
I laughed at this way harder than I should have.

>>49082788
Too bad Shahrazad is banned ay?

>>49082261
>>49081936
I don't know all the details, but it seemed like his opponent from the previous round told a judge they were fake, because he got deckchecked at the beginning of the round, and his opponent (my friend) didn't get deckchecked. It seems the kid really was innocent because later we heard him talking about how ripshit he was and how his friend was a retard.

>>49083240

And that's why you weather your duals

I'm almost done updating the Legacy flowchart. So long as it doesn't look like complete and utter garbage I'll post it here when it's done.

>>49083596

I look forward to your efforts, anon.

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What should I build next? Lands or Miracles? Crop Rotation or Top rotation? Tabernacle or Terminus? Lands abound or Time in round?

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>>49085597
dang, nice

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>>49085597
>all that money condensed in one post
BUILD EVERYTHING

Lands

>>49085597
>no gurus
>no foil japanese infernal tutors
>no beta underground seas
poorfag

So the first draft was actually so huge I couldn't export it in one picture. It's a good thing I took arts and crafts as a child.

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>>49085855
Sounds good. Rishadan is the first hurdle. Then Dark Depths and round out the wastelands.

>>49086046
Me irl

>>49086936
>tfw got drunk and bought the leds and lands for ANT
>tfw worked a min wage job at the time
rough month

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So one, I am never using fucking Google Docs to create a flowchart again. It snaps a picture based on the Zoom and then keeps it at that same shitty resolution.

I had to splice it together from Snipping Tool screenshots after exporting it to an HTML. The pdf was 9 pages long, else I would have used that.

So a couple things. I took out old, archaic decks that don't see play and added a few new ones. If I wasn't sure about a deck, I looked it up, and if I thought it was worth keeping I kept it. I couldn't ever find a right place for LED Dredge and it didn't fit with Manaless Dredge, so I just sort of jammed it in there. Omnitell is technically still a deck, sort of, in a mono-blue way, so I also left it there. Initially I had Stoneblade there but I moved it because it didn't fit right.

Anyways, opinions needed. I'm going to have to redo the splicing thing anyways because I'll color-code the questions and answers for ease of reading. Black and white is hard on the eyes.

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This is my most recent deck. It's still constantly being tweaked for efficiency, and I'd love yall's input. It usually does a pretty good job of slowing the game down to a crawl, stabilizing, and winning off the back of spirit tokens. I took it to legacy night at my LGS and went 2-1-2. Round 1 I got te bye.

Round 2 against Merfolk.
1-1-1. Lost game one to early aggression and I was one turn late on stabilizing. Game 2 I stalled him out, and won the topdeck war. We shuffled up for 3 as time was called.

Game 3 against burn.
2-0. This matchup shouldn't have gone as well as it did. Game one he kept a 1 lander and scooped early to a smallpox. Game 2 he lost to leyline of sanctity and chalice of the void.
Game 4 against punishing Naya 0-2
Lost game one handily. Game two I stabilized and lost to a very timely topdeck at the last possible moment.


Game 5 against Shardless BUG. 1-1-1
I lost game one to unchecked card advantage in Ancestral Visions. I grind or game 2, and we take game 3 to time.

Clearly I need to work on playing faster.

I'll post the lands and sideboard next.

>>49087474
i dont get it
it's like if pox had a baby with junk
what does it even DO

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>>49087474

God damn phone posting image rotation!

Anyway, here are the lands and sideboard.

>>49087515

I deny resources through Loam + Wasteland + Raven's Crime, Hymn to Tourach, smallpox and Liliana. I stabilize off the back of lingering souls and Nether Spirit, which keeps me alive long enough to lock out my opponent. I win with spirit tokens, Mishra's Factories, and Nether Spirit. Maelstrom Pulse, Abrupt Decay, and Vindicate are catch-all answers to whatever hits play.

>>49087339
Nourishing lich is missing. Don't you dare tell me it's irrelevant or outdated. it's shit I know I tried so hard to make it good

>>49087664
Deck looks fun, I love any deck that plays maelstrom pulse. Looks like your miracles Matchup is probably great to

>>49088151
Nourshing Lich is not irrelevant or outdated. It's irrelevant AND outdated.

Kinda like Doomsday decks :^)

>>49087339

You mixed Stax and Miracles around. Miracles is what you play if you want to disguise your hatred of your opponent by playing a good deck, Stax is what you play when you want your opponent to know you hate them.

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>>49087339
Heads up

>>49088276
Oh are we starting a beef? At least my deck doesn't fold to the one kind of hate everyone is packing in the board :^)

>>49088332
Thank you, I know Miracles and Lands are listed twice. In an effort to keep with the original flowchart I did end up having to do that.

>>49088327
Smart idea, I'll fix that. Thanks.

>>49088340
Listen here you have to prove your deck is good via my rules that I set up arbitrarily that a priori rules out your deck being good, can't do it huh, well looks like I win again ;^)

>>49088376
Pssh at least my deck isn't just a slower, worse ANT... oh wait


On a more serious note, if Nourishing Lich don't get a spot I don't think Necro2.0 should be on there either. I don't think anyone has tried to play that deck since like 2011.

>>49087339
What's Judge Destroyer 1.0?

>>49088491
I meant it more of a joke, but oh man, are you in for a treat tonight. www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29732-Legacy-Judge-Destroyer-1-0

>>49088490
Probably a good idea, I just went through the list and thought Necro 2.0 could still be a thing. I'll take it off.

>>49088542
>poster's icon is costanza.jpg
dis gon be gud. Also in your image, is "Eldrazis" really the pluralization of Eldrazi? Thought it was just Eldrazi.

>>49088491
>>49088542
Well... I-I can't quite describe how amazing this is... I want to run into this in an actual tournament. This is beautiful, a work of art NAY a masterpiece!

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>>49088564
Nah, it just sounded better. I'll fix it.

>>49088604
Pic related, when I first read it.

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>>49088646
My sides Holy fuck lol

>>49088542
So what happens if you try to do Judge Destroyer in MTGO? Can it handle that many triggers>

>>49087339

>got rid of Lowland/8-Land Stompy

H-how dare-! You'll see! It'll be back in the mix now that there are more Berserks available!

>>49088912
I want to see it happen, just because I'm not entirely sure if all those triggers will actually go off. If all the triggers go on the stack at once, though, I imagine it will run out of integer space at a base code level and the server will crash. If it's handled individually, you're going to be clicking for the next ~77 years or so.

>>49088976
>you're going to be clicking for the next ~77 years or so
Wew. Now I really want to see someone play it.

>>49056807
>pay to win general
you guys know it's true.

Why do you get so many doubling seasons and why is in finite?

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>>49089160
Start with Opalescence on the field
>Dual Nature enters the battlefield, triggers on itself putting a copy into play
Opalescence and 2 Dual Natures on the field
>Doubling Season enters, 2 Dual Nature triggers on the stack
>first trigger resolves, Doubling Season doubles it, putting two copies of Doubling Season into play
Opalescence, 2 Dual Natures, 3 Doubling Season on the field, one Dual Nature trigger on the stack
>second trigger resolves, Doubling Season doubles it 3 times(2^3)
Opalescence, 2 Dual Natures, 11 Doubling Season on the field
Then when you cast the second Doubling Season
>etb, copied by DN, doubled to 2^11 DS
>second etb, double to 2^(2^11) DS
That's a really fucking big number.

And then there seems to be even more shit that I lost track of somewhere, because the number they give is about 400 orders of magnitude bigger.

>>49089448
That's only two doubling seasons
Why not go for 4 and REALLY fuck with them?
Also, is there any way to give them all the triggers and essentially force them to concede or for the opponent into a slow play call?
Getting your opponent to forfeit because of slow play is the greatest thing that magic would have

>>49089569
Well, even with this massively undervalued pattern, the third doubling season makes the number 10x10^615 digits long.
For reference, it's estimated that there are ~10^80 atoms in the known universe.

Wolfram Alpha won't tell me about the fourth one.

>>49089801
you're into territory that needs arrow notation
it should still be possible to write it like that though shouldn't it? i'd have to read up on how to do it again but it's possible

>>49081910
>because that's what wizards says to do.
Whenever a card in your decklist becomes unavaliable to you FOR ANY REASON you have a right to replace it with another copy of the card, or a basic land.

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>>49089801

AND THIS
IS TO GO
FURTHER BEYOND

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>mfw finally picked up a playset of Verdant Catacombs
>mfw just a cunt hair away from finishing my first legacy deck, Nic Fit

>>49090007
AHHHH STOP
someone should seriously work out the math on this or see if you can find someone that can

>>49090020
Nic fit is fun to play with. Also has a good chance in a lot for Matchups. Rock on dud

>>49090007

you are balling out of control

>>49090068
At least for me over here on DnT, Nic Fit is really really hard to beat.

>>49063098
tier 2 since lodestone restriction.

>>49090194
Not really, I'd say its one of the top 3 decks right now (White Eldrazi, Grixis Pyromancer and Ravager Shops)

>>49088332
Fast and no scooping should lead to TES.

>>49089093
It's more so pay to compete

>>49085597
Good choice on the duresses. I run that art foil as well.

>>49087339
Jund, bant midrange, and omnitell shouldn't be in the "just tell me how to win" tree, they are relatively weak decks. Extra text on the chalice to cheerios line is kinda lame. No 4c loam on the chart. Looks good otherwise. Solid Job.

>>49090576
>>49089093
Its definitely Pay to Compete. You can drop a stupid amount of money making lands, but if you suck, you are going to lose hard.

>>49090222
Ravager shops is for chumps. Real planeswalkers run Ubastax

>>49085597
The duals are fake, right?

How good is High Tide if I want to get into Legacy?

Is it good enough to get a decent amount of wins?

>>49091180
You'll need to be extremely efficient with the deck and it's Matchups for you to be effective with it. Some people would say it's unplayable but the beauty of legacy is it rewards skill and experience as opposed to just playing the best decks

>>49058133

>UB Teachings
>turn 4 kill

lol, UB Teachings doesn't even want to have seen one of its wincons by turn 4

>>49083568

Whats the best way to weather your duals?

>>49089448
God dammit Matt. Is that your next Highlander brew or something?

>>49091326
>>49091326
>>49091326
I threw mine in a rusty barbecue set to mess them up real nice. But honestly, leave them out in the sun to get that fade, touch them a lot with your sweaty mitts and shuffle them with a bunch of other unsleeved cards.

Also, realise that fakes are far from impossible to spot. They look better in picture than IRL, and feel more like playing cards than magic cards.

>>49088542
It does not matter how many triggers you have from Grip of Chaos. The only equip ability that matters is the last one, as it makes the others irrelevant. Shortcut by skipping all the other equips and roll for the last equip. You'll have to define how many legal targets are on the battlefield, of course. The odds of equipping the helm to Akroma is that pseudoinfinite number to one. Use a random number generator to pick a number from the pseudoinfinite number+1. If that number is not one (Akroma), you lose the game.

>>49089933
What if your entire deck is made of china proxies? Your're gonna play with 60 basics?
>>49090007
the ride never ends

>>49091275
Are you fucking illiterate? There's a comma after Burn.

>>49091937
I think you might be, friendo, if you don't realise the way you typed it up could be interpreted in both ways.
Clear communication is key, lad.

>>49091986
>could be interpreted as t4 kills of kill spells and permission.dec
No, it really, really couldn't. Nice pedantics, "lad".

>>49091937
I have no idea what you could be saying in >>49058133 other than claiming burn, UB teachings, Izzet Blitz, Delver, and Boggles have turn 4 kills. >>49091275 responded by saying UB teachings doesn't even want to see its wincons by turn 4. You then replied by calling him illiterate and pointing out a comma after burn, which would still indicate you claiming UB teachings has a t4 win. I think you are the illiterate one here.

>>49092050
Not him but with a list of five decks, four of which have easy turn 4 kills and Teachings randomly in the middle it does seem like you're implying Teachings has a turn 4 kill.

And yes, a comma is often used to list subjects if you didn't know.

>>49092168
>>49092103
>>49092050
>>49091986
>>49091937
Woah, time out. You're degrading the thread. Both of you need to walk around the block before making another post.

So I took the Judge Destroyer deck and posted it on a judge forum to get their consensus. Will report back with results. If we reach a consensus.

I'm surprised firestorm hasn't exploded in price yet. I get it's only played in dredge, but it being a cheap deck beside LEDs it's a 4 of sideboard piece IN A RESERVED LIST.

Also mandatory "fucking reserved list".

>>49092220
>>both

I think there's at least four people in this discussion.

Also, it's just one fuckhead who's degrading the thread.

What Judge Destroyer deck are you even talking about? Four Horsemen 2.0, or what?

>>49092263
It's slowly picking up though, but yeah, not enough play to really warrant crazy prices. Also, it's from Weatherlight, not the most sought after set.

>>49092278
>not the most sought after set

Isn't that just an another reason why it would blow up?

>>49089933
If you are intentionally using an entirely counterfeit deck, and they can reasonably prove you are doing it knowingly, i'm almost certain that would be considered cheating, hardcore style, which is a big bad infraction and the judges are allowed to finger your bootyhole as punishment.

Is it possible to make Slivers viable in Legacy?

How would you go about making the most competitive Sliver deck possible?

>>49092412
4x cavern of souls
4x mutavault
4x Sliver hive

4x galerider sliver
4x crystalline sliver

4x Force of will
(4x Aether vial)

Arbitrary amount of +1 slivers and rest according to meta. Is there really much else to go with?

>>49092412
>Is it possible to make Slivers viable in Legacy?
It's been viable before but probably not. The basic issue is that while it can win games like any other aggro deck by swarming a bunch of creatures it's generally a better plan to win through only a card or two so the rest of your deck can be focused on disruption.
>>49092581 has a good start, I think hibernation sliver is basically needed as well.
Basically, merfolk isn't good and the deck is mostly worse than merfolk other than against spot removal sometimes and maybe random other things.

I hate MTG. It is a shitty system designed for maximum wallet-emptying. It's not even fun. Worst of all, it has infected games stores to the point where it's almost the only thing played.

>>49092635
>It is a shitty system designed for maximum wallet-emptying
Agree, I play exclusively with proxies and cards that cost less than a cent.
>It's not even fun.
It can be alright, the mana system is total ass though, and people refuse to listen to solutions to it.
Not to say those solutions are really ever good, but I think a big reason why there are never any good solutions is because smart people know it will never catch on anyway.
>Worst of all, it has infected games stores to the point where it's almost the only thing played.
In my experience, most of the times that that happens is when people are looking for an unfun game to play anyway, I found a board game group where almost no one played mtg and then they played Sentinels of the Multiverse instead which is the most boring thing I have ever experienced that was ostensibly trying to be entertaining. Other times people play D&D or other 'roleplaying games' (which imo are either a worse version of improv or a worse version of a video game and almost never good).

>>49092635
abloobloo the post.

What is annoying about mtg is that many things making it great is it being a TCG, but on the other hand astoundingly many shit things about is for the same reason.

>>49092695
>the mana system is total ass
I agree and disagree. It's incredibly good for making diversity when it restricts being able to go all in good stuff route. It makes interesting thematics etc, but also has fundamental flaw of making antigames of about 5-10% of games.

>>49087339
Am I blind or is it missing Tezzerator?

>>49090881
None of its fake.

>>49092916
I put it under "My opponent punching me out" under the weird and cool option.

>>49090713
Maybe it's just me but I really fucking hate Chalice. I'll fix it later today, hopefully by then we have a new thread.

>>49088376
the original chart had hexdepths in the "cool and weird" section, not lands. that deck is picking up popularity on mtgo, and I think it fits "cool and weird" better than lands. otherwise, it look really good and I appreciate your work, anon.

>>49093104
>Maybe it's just me but I really fucking hate Chalice.
kek. Chalice is the card that no one ever quite thinks of banning, but everyone wishes was never printed. You don't quite want it murdered, but I'd certainly feel relieved if I saw fall down an escalator shaft.

File: 13092058124.jpg (14KB, 400x300px) Image search: [Google]

14KB, 400x300px

>>49092979
Gotcha f a m

>only need gemstone mines to complete dredge

I know I'm rarely going to use it, but owning the deck makes me feel so happy already.

>>49093617
>Only need Mines and Bloodghasts to finish Dredge
TFW poor, gonna take me forever to finish this deck

>>49093637
Bloodghasts? Are you building Modern Dredge?

>>49093659
Fuck, forgot this was the legacy thread, I have both open.

>>49091275
Looks like the other anons cleared it up already, but I just wanna point out that a control deck can have a game won by turn 4 without seeing a single wincon, it's more about stopping your opponents wincons and having inevitibility.

>>49087339
Looks good, I ended up at the deck I play so as far as I'm concerned it's perfect.

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8KB, 176x137px

>>49093668
>>49093637
You don't need Mines in Modern lad, just fix a Jund mana base. I run a single Mine, but a lot of people just run a Steam Vents instead.

>>49093617
>>tfw only need Bazaars to finish dredge

>>49093804
My manabase is
4 mine
4 city of brass
4 confluencE
3 dakmor salvage
1 shivan reef

Not a whole lot of room for improvisation in the manabase for my list, especcially on a budget

>>49093829
Just to clarify, this is for modern right?

Rainbow is a bit much, given you only want to make sure you get your red first turn. But I get you're on a budget and can't improve much.

I'd start by running 20 lands at least, add 2 mountains, ditch the shivan reef (at the very least make it a Karplusan Forest).

If you have any red fetches, add those, but I'm guessing you don't.

>>49093889
My list is fairly 1drop-heavy, with Tome Scours as well, which is why I have a shivan reef. The rainbow manabase is basically a necessity with my maindeck having costs of all 5 colors, because of Rally.

And yes, Modern.

>>49093940
Maybe we should take it to here >>49086273

Tome Scours, eh? How are those working out? I still think 16 lands is a bit low then, even with a lot of 1 drops. But perhaps it's better to evaluate if I got a full list.

>>49093181
I think it's only fair there is a card that punishes you for playing way too greedy deck. After all, it's a fair way for stompy decks to say "fuck you storm and fuck you delver".

>>49093940
The fuck is your list...

>>49093181
>>49094019
I mean, Chalice would be a lot more fair if it wasn't so easy to play it on turn 1 on the play. Personally I love playing Chalice decks, mostly Tezz and Metalworker MUD

>>49094019
I'm on my phone right now, otherwise I'd post my list.

>>49094045
But it is fair as you have to commit into playing sol lands and ramp albeit that's what stompy decks want to do anyway. It's just good to have demented card that punishes demented decks, since I don't consider storm going off turn 1-2 more fair than said stompy to suffocate them turn 1.

As rranimator, Is it worth dropping FoW on chalice on 1 turn 1?

Because if they get it to resolve, I'm locked out of all my card draw, bainstorm, and most of my reanimate effects

>>49094390
I guess you answered your own question then, huh?

>>49094390
Didn't you just answer yourself? If you get locked by it, it's game.

>>49094390
>if they get it to resolve, I'm locked out of all my card draw, bainstorm, and most of my reanimate effects
What else are you gonna do? Unless you have a hand that can beat chalice on 1, I wouldn't think twice about it.

>>49094390
Decks playing chalice probably won't have anything you'd rather force. Even if you could discard to hand size and then exhume something and go off through chalice at one, what would you rather force?

>>49094019
>>49094332
>I think it's only fair there is a card that punishes you for playing way too greedy deck.
The only reason why decks heavy on one drops could ever be considered 'greedy' is because of chalice, otherwise they would be the safest, least greedy decks in the format.
>After all, it's a fair way for stompy decks to say "fuck you storm and fuck you delver".
It isn't fair, casting a card that literally wins you the game with 0 support is nothing approaching fair. Stompy already has less frustrating cards against storm (sphere, thorn) which don't entirely blank cards.
>It's just good to have demented card that punishes demented decks
I'd prefer everything just be warped to the point of being fair and fun. It's like dredge, playing dredge vs decks with mild to no graveyard interaction is often really fun (speaking from both sides of the matchup) but casting RIP and then just losing is just pathetic and mildly frustrating. I'd prefer a meta with dredge being 10% of the meta but all of the games are at least games to 5% of the meta where half of the games are cage/RIP/Leyline GG.

New thread incoming. This one's reached the bump limit

>>49094390
I love when someone answers their own question. I think it's pretty fucking worth it kid.

>>49094525
Are you making it?

>>49092635
>>49092695
>>49092704
>>49092742
you know mtg is the greatest tcg ever created right? and that the mana system shaped the way for every other tcg after it?

>>49094559
>and that the mana system shaped the way for every other tcg after it?
You know that every other tcg has sought to eliminate the problems caused by mtg's mana system? Including the other game made by the creator of Magic?

New thread >>49094581

>>49094578
name one problem it has

>>49094504
>playing dredge vs decks with mild to no graveyard interaction is often really fun

Well that's just bullshit. Dredge is one of those decks that are so far from being fair that it's only right it gets fucked by silverbullet cards. And that's coming from guy that plays the said deck. We are talking about silverbulleting decks that are pushing their boundaries on what they can do and if there wasn't those cards that can fuck them over, we are going to have format full of either balls on wall combos and blue decks running FoW which we are dangerously close already as it is. Some may say that's exactly what legacy is, but there is still some exceptions. I just don't personally see all the hate chalice is having.

>>49094578
And they've all been worse for it.
Lands have some problems, but the nothing else is as naturally integrated to the tcg system or as open to customization, or creates as many interesting design possibilities or game states.
Look at the entire mini metagame revolving around Wasteland. Just that one tiny aspect of MtG's mana system is more interesting all of Hearthstone's resource crystal thing combined.

Netrunner's ticks/credits is really cool though, definitely close

I'd rather 1/10 games be decided by screw/flood and the other nine be significantly more interesting. Screw/flood isn't even that significant, it just gets all the focus of the natural distaste for RNG in a competitive game. You're going to lost more games to your opponent happening to draw well than you are to yourself drawing 6 lands in a row.

>>49094717
Extreme variance/non-games
>>49094760
>Dredge is one of those decks that are so far from being fair that it's only right it gets fucked by silverbullet cards.
I've beaten dredge game one with death and taxes, storm, zombardment, lands, elves, and mono blue martyr, and dredge is one of the decks I play against the least. Pretty much any deck with deathrite has a game one against it, delver decks often fair decently as does miracles.
Maybe it gets boring after playing it for a long time, but I haven't got there yet.
>we are going to have format full of either balls on wall combos and blue decks running FoW which we are dangerously close already as it is
There is plenty of interaction against combo decks which don't just immediately win you the game. Trading ritual interaction at the start of the game often will lead to long drawn out games: see vintage and old extended.

>>49094851
happens MAYBE 1/10 times. maybe

>>49094793
>And they've all been worse for it.
I'm sure this is coming from someone who has played all of them.
>Look at the entire mini metagame revolving around Wasteland. Just that one tiny aspect of MtG's mana system is more interesting all of Hearthstone's resource crystal thing combined.
I think that heathstone is a shitty game, and its mana system definately has something to do with it, but I still can't say that wasteland is more interesting that the entire system of hearthstone's mana system.
>Screw/flood isn't even that significant
No it really, really is.
>You're going to lost more games to your opponent happening to draw well than you are to yourself drawing 6 lands in a row.
'your opponent drawing well' is the compliment to getting mana screwed/flooded, curving out is another huge problem of the mana system.
Additions of having 2 decks, being able to use cards as mana, or having entirely different systems like in Faeria or Netrunner are superior to Magic's systems.

>>49094928
Multiply that by 2 because it happens to both you and your opponent, now multiply it by 2 again because having a perfect curve out is just as fucking boring. Then you have around the amount of non-games caused just by the mana system.
Then think about how the game needed to change (sometimes fundamentally) in several different ways to accommodate for this (mulligans, mechanics that try to reduce mana variance).
It's a huge problem.

>>49095029
>having a perfect curve is boring
>winning is boring
stopped reading there

>>49095029
Except in practice it really isn't.
9/10 games are interesting and have significant decisions to make, many of which depend on how you and your opponents are drawing. That's just how card games work. Sometimes you get screwed by RNG, but it's going to happen with or without lands. When you're ahead on board and your opponent goes bolt bolt snap bolt, you just got fucked by a lucky series of draws with or without lands. Sometimes your opponent in poker gets dealt 2 aces. You just deal with it because fixing it makes the rest of the game worse.

Do you even play mtg? I've never met anyone who played anything more than kitchen table magic that thought things like having a separate lands deck would actually improve the game. Once you learn to stop playing decks with 7 cmc creatures and 20 basic lands the percentage of forgone conclusion games goes way down.

>>49095082
>winning is always fun
http://www.kongregate.com/games/mazapan/you-have-to-burn-the-rope
Have fun I guess?

>>49095193
you're missing the point entirely

>>49095172
>9/10 games are interesting and have significant decisions to make
Often not signifigant ones and probably not even then.
>Sometimes you get screwed by RNG
The designer's excuse for the mana system is literally that it adds more RNG to the game so people won't know how good/bad they are.
>it's going to happen with or without lands
Not to the same extent and you know it.
>You just deal with it because fixing it makes the rest of the game worse.
Poker is such a fundamentally different game from magic that that really does not apply.
>Once you learn to stop playing decks with 7 cmc creatures and 20 basic lands the percentage of forgone conclusion games goes way down.
And it is still way too fucking high to be reasonable, but defenders of the mana system have fucking Stockholm syndrome.

>>49095262
I say getting extremely good hands is as uninteresting as getting extremely bad hands and you say 'winning is fun'. What point am I supposed to gather from that?

>>49095332
I don't think you actually know what you're talking about.
Here, this is a legacy thread. Learn more about the game and you'll enjoy it a lot more. It makes me sad to see people hindering their own enjoyment of something because of their own lack of understanding
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5d1KNNFArSPnR5v8dDfaoaBulfiQj2zw

>>49095459
You know why I'm in the legacy thread?
Take a guess.
It's because I play legacy.
Magic is good because of its stack system, a decent combat system, and the fact that it is extremely willing to have cards which change the game on a fundamental level. It's mana system has downsides and it is simply not the best resource system that there is.