The Last Church

>>49027697
Because it's so shit.

>>49027697
>The Last Church held with such high reverence within the 40k fandom
It is?
If so, maybe it's because it's the only HH novel set before/at the time of unification and opens a unique window into that period.

>>49027733


It's beloved so much because throughout the entire story not a single sword is swung or weapon fired save far a very brief flashback. It proved how great Warhammer can be without Bolter Porn and violence.

>>49028166
It's a very short story and the flashback is pretty central to it.
Also, did you forget that they blow up the church in the end with grenades?

For fans of the lore, it's because of it being the earliest set canon in the 40k universe. For everyone else, it starts religious debates.

>>49028430
Would the empire be better off the Emperor made Christianity the official religion??

>>49028494
The Emprah tried to get rid of religion in a misguided attempt at trying to starve out Chaos. Had he known it wouldn't work, maybe he would.

>>49027697
Do people actually hold the Last Church in high esteem? Thirty thousand years of record history and another ten thousand or so that the Emperor was wandering the Earth before that, and he's hung up on the eleventh century Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition? I can't stand it when a character opens their mouth and the author's biases fall out and when I read the Last Church, it was as if Graham McNeill had written himself as the Emperor.

>>49028589
Nah, I think Christianity was just another religion to be disregarded. The smartest thing to do would be to reluctantly accept the worship of him by the masses to divert the faith from the Chaos Gods.

Or, y'know, telling everyone about Chaos like the Interix did so people could recognize the subtle threats of corruption.

Was the church a christian one?
I found strange that there was no mention of crosses?

>>49028654

It feels like something written by the 15 year olds I knew back when I went to Catholic School. Edgy Atheists without much actual scholarly backing for their arguments but full of fervor about it.

>>49028827
Don't need to respond I saw the lexicanum entry.

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>>49028430
>religious debates

Last Church touches on why the world's brightest philosophers have for millenia posited that the universe isn't greater than we comprehend, it's greater than we CAN comprehend - because the brain-smashing glimpses of this perfect 'system of systems' that their science could understand filled them with awe.

Modern atheists only know that there's no being more special than they are, so that must make thousands of years of enlightened philosophy wrong, rite gaiz lol?

So these threads only bait spastic, humorless fedora tippers and the kind of 'debate' that occurs when you give dumb people smartphones. The book ironically plagiarises the first of the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament: Thou shalt hold no gods before Me. This is literally General Bob's mission statement throughout the whole book, but chucklefuck millennials think the story is about church burnings. So much for nuance ...

>>49027697
Because it involved Emps being called out for his outrageous hypocrisy to his face. This is the only time in the WH40K fiction this has ever happened.

>>49028654

Without having read the story itself, I imagine the Emperor's reason for being against religion and bringing up stuff like the Crusades was to show how more than a lot of things, perhaps anything, it can be twisted by a person or by a group of people to serve or justify an ulterior motive.

The problem is not usually with a religion in of itself, it's with humanity.

>>49028716

A religion directed towards him would still be (And likely is) a problem because the galaxy is a big place and its easy for Chaos to sneak onto a planet and slowly corrupt their religious practices or cause splinter sects to form in secret.

Telling people about Chaos would be a bad idea because humanity is seemingly still at the point where it can fall prey to them temptations of Chaos. Yeah, the Interex were told of Chaos by the Eldar and are supposedly devoted to fighting it, but that is all we're told. The Interex may have had secret cults within it that formed from their knowledge of Chaos or may have had to implement strong surveillance that was only possible because of the size of their domain.

>>49027697
I like it because it shows the Emperor to be hilariously ignorant, arrogant, and naive. He thinks that he is different from all other men he derides because of his supreme power, when all he shall accomplish is fail like they did- only in a far more spectacular manner.

>>49030649
Adding to this, the irony of the story is that while being written intended as McNeil tipping a fedora, with the Emperor's colossal failure it rather comes off as a scathing burn on him, casting his character as one who is doomed to repeat human history despite experiencing all of it.

>>49027723
Well it is shit. But that more makes it blend in with every other Black Library story

>>49029795
Fair enough but one would think he would trust at absolute least the Primarchs to not fall to Chaos by telling them of how subtly dangerous it can be.

>>49030726
>doomed to repeat human history despite experiencing all of it.

It's a beautiful piece of irony.

>No books from the dark age of technology
>No books on thunderwarriors

Fuck me. It's far more interesting than the horus heresy.

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>>49027697
Because it's not

>Two factions are shooting and punching and kicking each other while grimacing intensely
>Third super badderest force shows up in the last act, forcing the other two forces to either begrudgingly team up or ignore each other to kick the third group back into whatever hole it crawled out of

I love 40k, I do, but I really wish they used their writing to explore the near boundless worlds of 40k outside of perpetual wartorn battlefields. There's a lot of creativity there that's never been tilled.

>>49027697
Because the concept is so good, but like most good concepts BL fumbles the delivery.

>>49032772

He did tell them something of it if Horus' conversation with Loken is any indication, at least that daemons exist.

>>49032985

Remember someone from FW mentioning the possibility of covering the Age of Strife, though it probably wouldn't happen until the Horus Heresy and Scouring are finished.

>>49032985
I prefer they stay as myth and legends only really referee to with ominous romanticisms like Old Night and names like the Unspeakable King or the Seven Neverborn.

As bad as Outcast Dead was I enjoyed the Lightning Lord's lament on the truly epic and titanic struggles between warlords that split continents being referred to as hyperbole by scholars despite them actual happening.

I want it to keep its mythic tone with only legends and medieval artwork as its only testament.

As a fedora-tipping atheist, this book offends me. It's babby atheism. "Ooh, the crusades and the Inquisition." Well, yeah. There were also misguided atheists who did dumb shit way more recently. The Cultural Revolution, for example.

The entire point of atheism is to be guided by rationality and facts. Going HURR DURR RELIGION IS EBIL is contrary to that, because now you're just one of the militant assholes you're complaining about. Don't you see the irony in fighting a war because you think religion causes war?

>Crusades were evil.
>That is why my galactic wide conquer war will be called the Great Crusade. And I am greatly evil.

Also shouldn't it be called the Great Thunderade or the Great Eagleade? I mean, they wear no crosses on their clothes (except for a fistful of IF)

Emps is an hypocryte. During the Age of Strife he went to the knight worl of Molech were a Old One corrupted warp gate was found. He entered and talked to the Dark Gods for more power so he could kill all the Perpetuals that opposed his plan of seize power and also to know how to create the Primarchs. John Grammaticus knew this well, hence he joined the Cabal because Emps was heading straight into motherfucking disaster. Sadly the only one able to stop him was Ollman Pious who much likely was Hercules, Arthur and other legendary heroes in the Age of Terra. The problem is that Ollman Pious was so depressed he couldn't and when he tried fucked up everything.

>>49037146
The Horus Heresy series was a mistake.

>>49037013

Yeah, I'm a bible bashing Catholic and I thought the same. It's the sort of shit that every priest that ever dealt with a teen has run into. It's not even good arguments, it's shit that theologians have been debating for literal centuries at this point.

I've no issue with a book with Strong Atheist Overtones in the same way that Narnia has Strong Christian Overtone but man, write something that actually argues your case worth a damn.

Daily reminder that the Crusades (which are the bloodiest and most hate filled wars in human history) were what awakened.

Many of his great servants were born from the religious zealotry and hatred of those wars.

So yes the Crusades were evil in 40K. So evil they brought forth the most powerful and terrible of the Chaos Gods.

Thanks Xitans

>>49037279
What awakened Khorne*

>>49037279
>>49037285
Only in old canon. That's all retconned now. Chaos is primordial and predates everything. It has no creation.

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>>49037279
>Crusades
>(which are the bloodiest and most hate filled wars in human history)

>>49037288
Nonsense. It was created by the writers of 40k, and they can destroy it whenever they want.

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>>49037288
I'm assuming you're trying to say Chaos Gods predate everything, which is horseshit in itself, since Slaanesh was born in fucking M25 and Warp was supposed to be a sea of tranquility before the War in Heaven and associated conflicts of that period.

>>49037289
Well, the sacking of Jerusalem was pretty insane. As a whole, the Crusades were fairly tame compared to most modern conflicts, though. It's simply a matter of logistics.

>>49037279
>Crusades
>Bloodies and most hate filled wars in human history
Whatever you say. And it wasn't the Crusades, it was either Genghis Khan or events around that time that were not related to human history.
It's retconned now either way.

>>49037311
>which is horseshit in itself, since Slaanesh was born in fucking M25

And yet he was there to elevate Be'lakor to daemonhood millions of years before that. Be'lakor the First Prince of Chaos who has memories of the first Necrontyr necropolis and the first of the Eldar homeworlds.

Explain this.

>>49037279
>(which are the bloodiest and most hate filled wars in human history)

Please tell me you aren't this fucking stupid.

>This story takes place in the impious ages of Old Earth, in a land known as Gawl, also called the Franckish Empire. A princely holy man of the Steel Era that followed the Bronze and Iron Epochs believed himself able to hear the words of his faceless deity. To reflect his self-proclaimed purity, he takes the name Innocent, and then he takes his followers to war.

>Lord Innocent calls a crusade to eradicate a heretical sect, which our fragmented histories refer to as the Karthur. He demands they be burned for their sins against the imaginary god. But these holy warriors – these knights – clad in primitive armour and wielding swords of steel, are the princes and lords of their realm. To them, the virtues of nobility and honour matter above all. The people of their empire look to them for justice, and theirs are the blades that defend the virtuous weak from the evil strong.

>Until their overlord, Innocent, blesses them. He declares their actions to be sacred deeds done in the name of the god they believe to be real. Any crimes they commit in this war will be ignored. Any sins shall be forgiven.

>Siegecraft in this bygone age is fought with catapults of metal and wood that hurl boulders of stone. City walls are brought down by these primitive machines, crewed by peasants and mathematicians alike, and once the walls fall the foot soldiers march in, led by their lords and princes.

>Albajensia, the fortress of the Karthur heretics, falls at dawn. The sword-bearing knights lead their holy warriors into the city, and with all their sins forgiven even before they are committed, the crusaders show no mercy. The heretics numbered no more than a few hundred, yet the whole city burns. Men, women, children...all butchered on the knights’ blessed blades.

>But what of the blameless masses? What of the children who know nothing of their parents’ heresy? What of the thousands of loyal, devout souls who have broken no laws, and do not deserve death?

>>49037311
Nope. Slaanesh has always existed and never existed. Hell even in one of the oldhammer books it was revealed that Slaanesh created itself- the first cult that 'led' to Slaanesh's 'creation' was formed by a Keeper of Secrets.

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>>49037347
>>‘Kill them all,’ says Innocent, the primitive Warmaster of his age. ‘Kill them all. Our God will know who is loyal.’ He condemns thousands to death, not because they are guilty, but because he believes a mythological paradise awaits those unjustly murdered by his men.

>And thus, the city burns. An innocent population is wiped from the face of the world by the blades that should have defended them.

>Like every emotion and deed, this slaughter is reflected in the Sea of Souls. The hate, the fear, the rage and bitter sense of betrayal – all of it curdles behind the veil. Few things feed the warp as sweetly as war, and few wars hold the same rancid symbolism as those declared by the strong against the weak they are sworn to protect.

>Such slaughter gives birth to daemons within the empyrean. Countless mewling terrors born from individual moments of suffering and bloodlust. Above them, more powerful entities also swirl into existence: one born from a blaze, deliberately started, that claims a dozen lives at once; another arising from a mother’s abject horror at seeing her children spitted upon the lances of those she’d believed to be her noble and holy protectors. These acts, and thousands more like them, breed the Neverborn in the hell beyond reality’s veil.

>Sometimes, as with this crusade of Albajensia, a daemon is born that rises above its siblings, one that encapsulates all the miserable complexity, cruelty and blood-soaked shame of the genocide. Imagine that creature, born of this sublime betrayal. Imagine a spirit of war given life when a warrior caste turns its blades upon its own people, acting upon the words of a tyrant, in the name of a lie.

>>49037146
fuck BL

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>>49037359
>Its skin is the bleeding red charcoal of scorched flesh, like the families who burned in their homes. Its armour is a fire-blackened mockery of the mailed knights whose treachery gave it birth. It carries a sword, just as those butchering knights carried swords, though its blade is graven with runic curses heralding the War God’s glory.

>The crimson and orange light that burns behind its eyes is the fire that lit the horizon as the doomed city blazed. When it opens its maw, each of its exhaled breaths is the echo of ten thousand dying screams.

>It calls itself the Ragged Knight.

>>49037359
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

Justify this Xitans. Not only did you awaken the Blood God, you gave birth to his first minions.

It's all your fault. You bloodthirsty bastards!

>>49037347
>>49037359
>>49037372
CRAWLIN IN MY SKIIIIIIIIN

I bet ADB thought that sounded really cool in his head.

>>49037335
>>49037349
This doesn't collide with the time of his/her creation.
Warp can and does do weird shit with time, tossing ships to the future and the past alike.
One can assume Chaos gods inherit the ability to exist across time, but this would rape the in universe events in a very literal sense and break the canon continuity as the big 4 would have infinite possibilities to fuck over all opposition literally anywhere, anytime.

>>49037347
>>49037359
>>49037372
So a war between two religious sects on a single planet that involved thousands and didn't involve any psychics birthed a deamon.

How many deamons have the Grey Knights created by this exact same method?

Holy fucking shit BL is dumb.

>>49037435
>Holy fucking shit BL is dumb.
Horus Heresy and beast arises are the 2 things that made 40k lore even worse then it already is.

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So after seeing this fluff, can you blame the Emperor for mentioning the Crusades as the great evils they were?

He saw with his mind eye the creation of the daemonic behemoths and hordes of terrible Kharneth. Created by the hate and intolerance of the religious.

Religion was a mistake (in 40K).

>>49037458
And Stalin's purges, the Great Leap Forward, and the Holocaust get no mention?

>>49037458
I blame ADB for being a shit writer and edgy atheist
It was not even the bloodiest conflict in the world's history

The crusades were righteous

But so is emps religious cleansing, religions caused too much division for a galactic empire.
Plus, all of you whining about him acting like he's more than a man should kill yourselves as that's literally the case
It doesn't matter if he's wrong or right, his goal always demanded extremism, you faggots act like a fair and balanced approach to big changes is a smart idea as a despotic ruler.
Funfact: that is exactly while radical reforms (that includes good and necessary ones) are way easier to get done in dictatorships. For more information watch legends of the galactic heroes

>>49037359
The sacking of one city creates trouble in the Warp, which reflects a GALAXY of minds.

And itcs Cathars. Not one of the Romancs many many slaughters. Not Genghis "2000 years worth of Mesopotamian infrastructure and the entirety of secular Islamic scholarship" Khan. Not the fucking Holocaust, and not any of the galactic scale conflicts that took place in the past 2 million years worth of Orks, Eldar, Necrontyr, Enslavers, and assorted minor races.

>>49037435
>Holy fucking shit BL is dumb.
You have no idea. When it comes to the HH series, the writers actually have meetings every once in a while to coordinate things and bounce ideas off each other.

You're basically dealing with a series where some of the shittiest writers in the world have combined to collectively throw their shitty ideas against the wall.

This in turn leads to another horrifying notion. If these are their "good ideas" which passed all the discussions and editing, then just imagine the steaming shit that didn't get in.

>>49037474
ADB has severe daddy issues and takes it out on the Emperor.

>>49037401
I always thought of the Chaos Gods as evil Timelords. That they exist across from when the Immaterium became the Warp because of their Warp powers to see and affect all time. That Slaanesh was low-key before his/her birth was due to how the Warp was still tranquil. It's only after the Fall that the Warp was in enough turmoil for Slaanesh to affect the Materium significantly.

>>49037485
>>49037474

" Few things feed the warp as sweetly as war, and few wars hold the same rancid symbolism as those declared by the strong against the weak they are sworn to protect"

Xitans dun goofed by being exceptionally viciously evil while adding a shade of symbolism to their actions that secular atrocities cannot.

>>49037512
>Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows
>unless it will help to spread my shitty agenda

>>49037525
Khorne cares not but the Warp does.

The greater the sin it witnesses, the more greater the evil that the Warp will reflect back at reality.

>>49037485
Seriously this.
It is canon that the Necron/OldOne's war and War in Heaven made all subsequent wars look like fucking jokes.
How come ONE FUCKING PLANET (with population under 1 Billion until 1800's no less) gave birth to THREE Chaos Gods?

>>49037458
Calling the Crusades evil and utterly ignoring Cultural Revolution, Stalinism, the Holocaust just makes the Emperor look like a stupid twat.

The man lived through the Battle of Megiddo, the rise and fall of Uruk, Egypt, Judea, Rome, Carthage, the Mongol Empire, Bzyantium; he saw the Arab Conquests and Spanish rule in South America, plus a load of big futuristic space battles.

It's babby tier edgy Western Athiesm, but that makes it great because the Emperor looks so small minded and petty. You can see how he is doomed to fail despite being so godlike

>>49037541
but it doesn't reflect back at reality
Otherwise Khorne would be a god of killing people you care about and you were supposed to protect and once again
>>Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it flows

>>49037472
Contrary to popular belief, the Nazis weren't atheists. They were in fact mostly Catholic.

Also, the Last Church was a shit. Emps wanted to eradicate religion to deny Chaos another tool to corrupt humanity. But people forget that Emps also tried to replace religion with the Imperial truth, to use logic and reasoning to determine their actions rather than because a god said so.

>>49037541
>>49037525
The second anon is right b ut he explains it really shittily

The point is that the warp is the collective emotional subconsciousness of all sentient races, so crimes that seem descpicable to the people involved will have a greater effect than those which do not

>>49037512
Is that why the Imperium has such blatant Christian symbolism?

>>49037559
>but it doesn't reflect back at reality

It does in the form of daemons.

Daemons are born from actions and emotions of mankind, their sins. The greater the sin, the greater is the daemon born from it.

>>49037547
>How come ONE FUCKING PLANET (with population under 1 Billion until 1800's no less) gave birth to THREE Chaos Gods?

I'm guessing ADB glanced at the old fluff but being the retard that he is, completely misinterpreted it.

Basically, 3 Chaos Gods awoke roughly during the Earth's Middle Ages which in turn caused the shit that humans did in that period as well as other shit like the Black Death.

ADB essentially reversed that mechanism and had human bad things causing chaos gods instead of the other way around.

>>49037571
You know how Jefferson had his own bible where he ripped out all the nonsense but kept the things that espoused virtues like "love your brother/neighbor ".

That.

>>49037547
They didn't birth them. The Chaos Gods were gestating in the Warp. Humanity's shenanigans was the final push that awakened them.

>>49037581
so if I mastrubuate I can summon a Bloodletter?
Is this how it works?
Sin is completely unrelated to what forms in Warp?

>>49037615
>so if I mastrubuate I can summon a Bloodletter?

No, you would create minor daemons of lust.These daemons are short lived mindless things that will fade back to the Warp.

If you start raping people and embrace debauchery, your sins will eventually span daemons.

>>49037563

But that was just another of Emperor's follies.

Chaos doesn't care about worship but feelings. The Emperor should have servitorized humanity to make a dent.

>>49037563
The Nazis debated replacing Christianity with a reconstructed Nordic race cult and some argued for the abolishment of Christianity as Jewish derived sect.

Albert Speer wrote that after meeting a North African leader Hitler lamented that Christianity was too soft and it was a shame Germans didn't follow a religion more like Islam, as he believed it gave North Africans a natural zeal and he wanted his Nordic Supermen to have a similar fanaticism. Check his biography.

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>>49037458
>creation of the daemonic behemoths and hordes of terrible Kharneth. Created by the hate and intolerance of the religious.

>and so he launched a galaxy spanning genocidal CRUSADE, razed whole planets, killed billions upon billions of innocent people who just weren't too comfortable with sucking off some random golden dude who came outta fucking nowhere after 5,000 years of misery and demands fealty and tithes and shit.
He did this because he loves you and he wants to unite humans and direct their inner gullible violent monkey self towards an outside enemy, under the banned of his religion of non-religion, in the form of another xenophobia fueled genocide and conquer the whole galaxy no matter how many die in the process.

Love and tolerance all around.
Road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Empra fucked up before he even started,

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>>49037340
No, he's Carnac.

>>49037547
Because GW.

>By the end of the Middle Ages all three of these Chaos Powers had awoken to full consciousness.

>the aggressive and unstable race of man must be largely blamed for the growth of disharmonious forces in the warp

>>49037674
>>the aggressive and unstable western Xitan civilization must be largely blamed for the growth of disharmonious forces in the warp

FIFY

>>49037674
>>the aggressive and unstable race of man must be largely blamed for the growth of disharmonious forces in the warp

That shit got retconned when Necrons were introduced. Now the War in Heaven is the reason why the Warp got so fucked up.

>>49037703
Not necessarily. The humans didn't create the Chaos Gods, they just pushed them to sentience. The warp was in turmoil but humanity's antics was the final drop of douchery that sent things overflowing.

Explains why the Chaos Gods weren't that active before humanity came along.

>>49037647
The problem with you reasoning is the fact the crusades were not the first and not the bloodiest war in the history of mankind.

BL is saying this war created Khorne beacuse of the fact they killed people they were supposed to protect
But if this was true,Khorne would be a god of treason and bloodshed not just simple blood

>>49037689
You fixed nothing. Evil lurks in the hearts of all men, not just your "Christian" dad.

>>49037717
>they just pushed them to sentience.
That is a wholly different statement than

>must be largely blamed for the growth of disharmonious forces in the warp

Either they are the main problem or they're just the straw that broke the camel's back. They can't be both.

>>49037734
>killed people they were supposed to protect
Is BL actually convinced that the Crusaders were supposed to protect Muslims, heretics and pagans?

>>49037760
Reading comprehension. This is about the Pope saying "Kill them all and God will sort them out".

There were God loving Christians mixed with the heretics. The Crusaders killed them all the same.

The Ragged Knight was born from the bloodlust of the crusaders and the outrage of the good Christians slaughtered by those who swore to protect them.

>>49037787
>The Ragged Knight was born from the bloodlust of the crusaders and the outrage of the good Christians slaughtered by those who swore to protect them.

But that's just......stupid. Suppose a cop shot a kid with a toy gun. Suppose the government did something bad against its citizenry. Suppose any number of similar situations. You'd have a daemonic invasion every other day.

Shit, that's even dumber than what I wrote.

>>49037812
Nobody is talking about causing daemonic invasions.

Atrocities give birth to daemons. They might invade today or 1000 days later. It depends on a lot of things.

>>49037812
Consider it in 40K.

The Grey Knights have been creating deamons on an industrial scale. They must have got a good few million Ragged Knights after the Armageddon purge alone.

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>>49037703
And grognards raged about it, and now GW doesn't talk about it (granted, those things aren't necessarily linked; it's hard to imagine they even could be).

>>49037898
Because it was poetic that humanity created their own worst enemies, no?

>>49037840
>Comparing a necessary evil against an act of absolute evil

>>49037964
>humanity created their own worst enemies
they still did
they are called traitors

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>>49037987
>You're wrong! My genocide if JUSTIFIED!
lmoa

>>49037987
I can't see how the Armageddon concentration camps were justified.

If it was really necessary to kill every mortal man who saw Chaos then they would need to exterminate Cadia after every minor skirmish.

And it didn't work. The Changeling still got away.

So not only are the GK weakening the Imperium they are also shit at their job.

>>49038033
Keeping Cadia around is a necessary evil.

Normal people who know about the existence of daemons or have encountered them must be eliminated or else they will cause further problems in the future. The corruption of Chaos requires uncompromising measures.

>And it didn't work. The Changeling still got away.

That's a different cleansing.

>>49037987
Okay then. Killing the legit christians was a necessary evil since they couldn't tell them apart from the heretics and couldn't afford to let them escape.

>>49037435
Isn't that prett ymuch the established way how demosn are created? All emotions reflect in the warp, and feed the Chaos Gods, who in turn create demons. There's been mentions of groups of chaos cultists committing ritual suicide in a specific way so that the emotions induced would cause their souls to coalescend into a demon. That's pretty much the same thing, only instead of deliberately done it's a result of several hundred people killed while undergoing similar strong emotions (in this case fear and anger over perceived betrayal).

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>>49038135
>Comparing mercy killing Chaos tainted civilians to slaughtering your own people because you couldn't tolerate the faith of their neighbors

Staaahp.

>>49037674
>Carnac
Who?

>>49038195
>BORN OF SLAUGHTER

>The first Daemon to burst through the rift above Scrap Peak was the Herald known as Slaughterborn, an entity spawned from the deeds of an especially murderous assassin. Known to some as the Brazen Blade, this deranged killer hired his services to cult leaders and demagogues throughout the Lonereach System, his only price being the skulls of those he slew. The Brazen Blade dedicated each act of murder to the Blood God, creeping close to his victims through subtlety and silence before butchering them in shockingly violent ways. With each mark slain, his skull shrine grew until, in a final act of blind dedication, the Brazen Blade plunged his daggers into his own throat, bathing the shrine in blood. That very moment, Slaughterborn howled into being in the Warp. The maddened horror was spawned from the life force of not only the Brazen Blade, but of his many victims. These conflicting spirits filled Slaughterborn with a directionless loathing, and a desperate need for violence that could never be sated. So it was that the Herald swiftly butchered his way to lordship over his murderous peers, and claimed a mighty Skull Throne for his own. As the brazen bridge shuddered into being above Scrap Peak, Slaughterborn’s daemonic carriage burst from the Warp at the very head of the Khornate host, its master intent on the deaths of every mortal below.

Yep.

>>49038198
Plenty of planets worshipped chaos gods and worked before the GC, you bigot imperial.

>>49038198
>mercy killing
I don't think you know what that means.

>you couldn't tolerate the faith of their neighbors
What the fuck does that make the Emperor then who ruthlessly stamped out all religion regardless of what you worshiped?

Big E must have been the greatest daemon lord ever.

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>FOOLISH MORTAL! THINK YOU, TO TURN WARS AGAINST ITS MAKERS?

>WE WILL FEED UPON EVERY BLOW YOU LAND, EVERY BLOOD DROP SHED, EVERY BONE BROKEN, AND EVERY SKULL SEVERED.

>IN BATTLE WE WERE BORN, AND FOR BATTLE WE EXIST.

>THE REIGN OF YOUR SWORD SHALL BE (??????) TO US, AND IN HOSTS UNCOUNTABLE WE WILL FIGHT YOU.

>FOR EACH ONE OF US YOU FELL, ANOTHER SHALL BE BORN INTO WAR UNENDING. BATTLE WITHOUT CEASE. TO THE END OF THE WORLD AND THE UNIVERSE BEYOND.

>THE (????????) OF WAR CANNOT BE VANQUISHED!

>GREAT MAY BE YOUR FURY. YET THE HARDER YOU FIGHT, THE STRONGER WE SHALL BECOME.

>THERE IS NOT A BLADE FORGED BY MAN OR GOD, THAT DOES NOT BELONG TO US.

>EVERY LIFE YOU TAKE, SHALL BE A LIFE DEDICATED TO US. AND YOUR VICTORIES SHALL BE OURS AS WELL AS YOUR DEFIANCE.

-From the Audiobook "Aenarion".

That was the Khorne to Aenarion. This makes you think.

If fighting against Khorne (and by extension Chaos) empowers Chaos, then how can we defeat it? Is it even possible?

>>49027697
worst fucking story in the whole HH, makes a fucking immortal rulers of humanity who has seen shit over tens of thousands of years sound like a fucking 15 year old fedora redditor

>religion is bad because of crusades and all the people it killed, now let me start a great crusade that is going to result in billions of deaths all over the galaxy

>>49037703
I always assumed the corresponding historical events to the Chaos Gods births were the effect not the cause of their birth

>>49038033
Because Cadia and Armageddon are two completely different. Cadia is the only Fortress Planet that allows stable Warp Travel which prevents Chaos Marines to launch their massive fleets. As such, the Imperium deploys several dozen Space Marine Chapters and more Inquisition in order to maintain control.

Whereas though Armageddon supplies a significant part of the Imperial Guard, it's more cost efficient to replace the populace rather than wait for Chaos Cults to emerge and force an Exterminatus

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>>49038242
>If fighting against Khorne (and by extension Chaos) empowers Chaos, then how can we defeat it? Is it even possible?
Give all humans Pariah Gene?
BTW, weren't Sisters of Silence blanks?
I could swear I've seen a picture with two of them standing right beside the Emperor, and the man doesn't give a shit...

>>49038251
You do realize that is what happened in canon regardless of the content of this book.
Emperor did loathe religion for its inherent corruption and slaughter in the name of good intentions and championed logic and reason.

Then he went on genocidal, xenocidal rampage of a galactic conquest.

>>49038242
>If fighting against Khorne (and by extension Chaos) empowers Chaos, then how can we defeat it? Is it even possible?

Become robots. Make pylons to completely sever the Warp from reality.

>>49038365
Men of iron got corrupted. Shits fucked.

>>49038374
>Men of iron got corrupted. Shits fucked.
I'm talking about necrons.

>>49038331
Which were justified seeing as xenos took advantage of human colonies during the Fall and bartered humans like cattle.

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>>49038231
>>49038251
Why is the sentence "A Necessary Evil" is so hard for you to understand?

>>49038431
Way to go ignoring 5,000 years of human occupation.

>>49028938
40k has always been anti-religion.

>>49038466
Because it's full of shit.
Time and again it's been proven that people can walk off warp incursion just fine as long as their planet doesn't turn into a full blown demon world.

Inquisition is a bunch of hypocritical dickbags

>>49038466
>Why is the sentence "A Necessary Evil" is so hard for you to understand?

Why is the notion "it's a bunch of bullshit" so difficult to understand?

So apparently, a bunch of crusaders sacking one city is enough to spawn a daemon because they're so fucking evil, yet the Emperor gets to commit galactic genocide and nothing happens.

It's very clear why the Inquisition does this shit - they simply don't trust the average human to be strong enough to resist and that's all well and good but don't try to moralize and paint yourself as the good guy who is forced to do "necessary evil"

>>49038305
If a blank and a psyker are close enough to affect each other, the significantly more powerful one cancels out the effectof the other, and Emps is the most psyker alive, so there
I wonder if Sisters´s powers passively interfering with ´that of the Emperor while standing next to him shouldn´t exhaust them and possibly kill them, but guess Emp might be holding back.

>>49038295
irrc, Cadia has a fully staffed council of inquisitors from all major ordos all the time. If any other planet required this much inquisitorial attention and effort, it woud´ve been exterminatus´d eons ago, but Cadia has paramount strategic value.

>>49038554
>If a blank and a psyker are close enough to affect each other, the significantly more powerful one cancels out the effectof the other

Wait no, that's not how it's supposed to work.
The stronger the psyker the more he or she is connected to the warp the worse they are affected by the blank's presence.
Regular Eldar vomit blood near the pariahs and the farseers outright fucken die near one.

>>49038504
The Imperial Church is one of the big reasons why humanity has held together in the face of all the horror.

>>49038626
>>‘Delightful,’ he murmured. ‘Keeler is quite explicit. The Emperor is not a god. He disavows any effort to name him so. You see, here? She states that it was her encounter with daemons in the presence of Horus Lupercal that drove her to extremes of belief. If daemons exist, then to her a god must exist too. The universe could not be so cruel, otherwise. The existence of a god was necessary to counterbalance the horror of the warp. The Lectitio Divinitatus is based on a lie. Imperial faith is based upon fear. The “saint” admits it.’

The founder of the religion, the "First Saint", admits in her writings from the HH that all of this based on nothing but her fear.

>>49038661

Is that from the Keeler Image? I've been wanting to read it for ages.

>>49038668
Yeah.

>>49038661

The Imperial Truth was a Lie as well. Everything was built on lies.

>>49038681
It depends if you consider the Chaos Gods as gods or just energy parasites from a different dimension.

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>build an empire of reason and secularism
>construct giant fucking Space Cathedrals

>>49038693
Is there ever an in-universe explanation why is imperium so invested in gohtic architecture and eagles and skull s and shit?

>>49038704
The eagle and thunderbolt were the symbols of the Emperor, the skull the symbol of man.
Gothic architecture really didn't take off until after the Heresy, but many ships were built as works of art (unless you're the IW).

>>49038693
If we're going down that road why call it a Crusade?

Why have Chaplain as official rank in Legions?

Why call them your "Angels of Death"?

Why cover everything in religious looking iconography?

Why tolerate the religion of Mars when they are the ones holding back technological progress?

Why tolerate the pagan faiths of Fenris?

Why try to make yourself look as god like as possible and keep throwing around powers that could easily be interpreted as godly?

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Ships had more pragmatic designs back then.

>>49038733
>Pragmatic design
>Big fucking cathedral

>>49028494
He already tried that. It became a bloated and corrupt organization that frequently let evil and innefectual men take power

>>49038733
That's still a space cathedral.
also they say the biggest baddest ships actually predate the Imperium, but they are still space cathedrals, so are belltowers, gargoyles, angel statues and reradedly big stained glass windows actually a leftover of the DAoT?

>>49038748

Al the gothic shit is hella toned down compared to most shit.

>>49038761

The only true confirmed DAoT human ship was Slaughtersong and is was insanely powerful and completely different in design to every other ship in the galaxy

>>49038728
because the emps is not infallible and made quite a few mistakes

>>49038772
All Ark Mechanicus predate the Imperium

>>49038808
There's a big difference between being fallible and taking a shot gun to your own feet and reloading and firing again in case you didn't fuck your self up quite enough.

Many of the Emperor's decisions weren't so much honest but wrong as they were bafflingly stupid.

>>49038772
Terminus Est was I think also a DAoT ship.

>>49038577
Putting the pysker-blank relationship this way makes sense, thanks for correcting me, by the way, but if that´s true, how come the Sisters aren´t fucking the Emperor over? I don´t think pariahs can supress their power without arechetech devices.They just have to have tho- se I guess.

>>49038867
>Terminus Est was I think also a DAoT ship.

No

>The Terminus Est was built in the years before the Great Crusade in the shipyards of Luna. Its unique design was larger and more powerful than any previously constructed pattern, but also more cumbersome. The Emperor created the vessel for his Space Marine Legions, gifting the ship to the Dusk Raiders, later to be known as the dreaded Death Guard. The Terminus Est was a huge battleship, miles in length with the firepower to lay waste to entire cities. Specially crafted for the Space Marines, it incorporated decks of launch bays capable of carrying hundreds of Stormbird Dropships. Its distinctive forked prow allowed it to act as both launch bay and gun deck, meaning it could send out assault craft while bombarding a planet from orbit, making it ideally suited to the needs of the Legion. Such was the success of the Terminus Est’s design that it would be later reproduced in great numbers by the Imperium. These copies were designated Despoiler Class, and were used extensively for planetary assaults.

>>49038930
>DAoT ship
Where the fuck did all the DAoT ships go anyway?

>>49038930
>c.M30 The Emperor’s Gift

>After the alliance between Terra and Mars, the Emperor commissions the creation of a vast fleet to retake the stars and reunite Humanity’s lost children. Some of the most skilled tech-artisans of the age create the Terminus Est in the shipyards of Luna. Its hull, armaments and engines incorporate countless advanced designs recovered from the Dark Age of Technology. The Emperor gifts the vessel to his Dusk Raiders Legion, as a reward for their loyalty. The Terminus Est becomes the Legion’s flagship as they embark upon the Great Crusade to unify the galaxy under the rule of Mankind.

>>49038945
>216.M36 Mission to Barbarus

>In response to Imperial Naval encounters with the Terminus Est the Adeptus Mechanicus seek out the ship’s ancient schematics, gifted to the Death Guard after the vessel’s creation. An expedition to Barbarus, the scoured remains of the Death Guard home world, finds the data the Mechanicus seeks and the Imperium creates the first Despoiler Class warships inspired by the formidable Terminus Est.

>It is only much later that the Imperium realises that the design holds a fatal flaw, its Geller fields vulnerable after extended exposure to the Warp. Over the centuries, almost every Despoiler Class warship is lost to Chaos, its crew and captains subverted or corrupted by the Dark Gods.

>>49038953
>the design holds a fatal flaw, its Geller fields vulnerable after extended exposure to the Warp

and this is somehow impossible to rectify without building a completely different ship
I fucking hate artistic license

>>49038971
may i ask why artistic license has anything to do with it?

>>49037689
Edgelord Jews coming out on Sunday as always

>>49038554
Sisters blank effect is passive - they have to concentrate to make it effective that's why they do that silence oath

>>49027697
Because it's one of the only times in 40k that a regular human got to shittalk emps and be right about everything they said.

>>49038626
40k is originally written as anti-authoritarian material that mocks power abusing institutions. The Imperium was never supposed to be viewed as heroic or beneficial.

>>49039211
Autistic license you mean

>>49038971
The Imperium is all about sucking at everything, but still getting shit done with brute strength.

>>49039412
And Starfleet was never supposed to be viewed as a military. Weird how this shit works out.

>>49039587
It's what happens when fans starts writing the fiction. It just turns into shit with shallow concepts.

>>49039599
I agree with you in principle but not on these two specific things.

The Imperium endures because of it's blind and fanatical faith that it will endure. It is too stubborn to know that it is dead. This blind faith is necessary but also comes with shit loads of drawbacks, most notably the fact that it will never seek an honest alliance with any other empire and that it will never change gently.

In the case of Star Trek Gene Roddenberry wrote TNG season 1.

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>>49038930
>Such was the success of the Terminus Est’s design that it would be later reproduced in great numbers by the Imperium. These copies were designated Despoiler Class
>>49038953
>Over the centuries, almost every Despoiler Class warship is lost to Chaos

Three out of three?

Well, actually at least four out of three, I guess.

>>49041894
Yeah, GW can't decide if ships are rare and powerful or dime a dozen.

>>49038728
Because back when the fluff was first put together, the Emperor was just a powerful warlord who united Earth and went crusading. It's only later changes that made him the immortal Turkish superman.

>>49039250
The way /tg/ described Caiphias Can´s Jurgen to me, I tought blanks just used their power continually, as Jurgen appeared to be dirty and smellly all the time, but that was the impression he gave to normal people due to radiating anti-soul.

But this would imply blanks do their thing continually, not only while concentrating as you say. I´m confused, how do blanks work?, There aren´t multiple varites of blanks ,are they. And as I´m now readinf the Lexicanum and I can´t find a direct quote saying that Jurgen´s repugnancy is a direct result of his blankness and not him being a slob, which further undermines my point.

>>49044637
He has been one of the most powerful psychers in the setting for quite a while now, though.

>>49038504
Horus Heresy seems to have an anti-secular feel to it, though. All their secularism, and they were powerless against Daemons when they started cropping up.

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>>49046415
>There aren´t multiple varieties of blanks, are there?

Actually there are
Blanks: Recessive Pariah gene carriers who project an aura that disrupts psychic powers but only repels normal humans a bit ala Jurgen.

Pariahs: Dominant Pariah gene carriers who have no warp presence, will literally leech/kill nearby psykers, and "normal" humans can't physically handle being near them ala Culexus Assassins.

>this difference is why Culexus need Animus Speculum to dampen their "anti-psyker aura" enough not to fuck everyone around all the time while Jurgen can "function normally" around people.

>>49027723

its less shit than the rest of them so its applauded

mind you that like saying this shit is better than the last 50 shits i had that were bloody cancerous ridden tumourific outspurts

>>49041894
A series about the crew of the Last Loyal Despoiler would be a good read if it was one right.

A maverick captain, a crew of eccentrics and fuck ups and the high ups convinced that your fall from grace is now a matter of time.

They go on adventure.

>>49037067
>Thunderade

Is it full of electrolytes?

>>49047652
It's got what plants crave.

>>49046698
>>49046415


What's the name of that story again where Jurgen wanders off from the main group to try to fix a snack for Cain, and runs into a guy summoning a Daemon again? It's one of the shorts.

I just love how it portrays him, not understanding why everyone else thinks Daemons are so tough.

It's held up high because:

A.) It's the only 40k story with a lesson or meaning behind it

B.) It's actually anti-militant atheism (atheism is now considered "reddit" on 4chan)

C.) It turned the traditional narrative on its head that Emprah was a saint (this was cool before BL overdid it with the HH series)

E.) It had thunder warriors in it

F.) No space marines (any story with no space marines gets liked by /tg/)

>>49048171

You're forgetting

>It reveals that the Emperor is a hypocritical retard.

>>49048228
I think that's covered by C

>>49046698
Couldn't they just have all the name refer to a person with the pariah gene (like how psykers are called witches, sorcerers, etc.) just have there be a sliding scale of intensity, like with psykers?

>>49038971
Ships aren't really built on an assembly line. There's probably a commission for X amount of ships to meet Y specifications and they're built. More or less can be made, but once production ceases, they probably don't pick it up and are instead making new ships to meet another demand.

The fault probably wasn't discovered until it was too late and by that time it's possible the Despiler has been out of production for some time, the Imperium having all that it needed. Lets face it, the age of legions barraging planets with their bodies are long gone and Guard isn't made for high impact rapid insertion.

What I don't get is why did they only make one ship and why the blueprints were given over to Barbarus. I always thought it was made by the Death Guard to suit their needs, not that it was something they had from Terra onward.

>>49037067

Could have been saying that the Crusades were bad because of the religious significance behind them while the Great Crusade was plainly about uniting humanity under the Emperor's rule.

See nothing wrong with the use of crusade if you use the definition of it being a group action based around an idea or set of ideas.

>>49037191
>>49037361

These are some of the worst parts about these threads. People who just take an Anon's word on something without actually reading the material themselves. Usually also not having knowledge of the lore or ignoring how it doesn't make sense.

>Horus' flagship has become corrupted hellhole filled with all kinds of horrors that are strong enough to kill Terminators and Custodes. The Emperor would totally take Imperial soldiers along and one would totally be able to survive in such an environment.

>Perpetuals are dumb, I'll just ignore that the Eldar race as a whole could reincarnate before Slaanesh and that the past lore justifying the Emperor as a being was a bunch of shamans discovering that they couldn't reincarnate anymore and deciding to pour themselves into one being.

>>49037288

The Chaos gods may have existed as coalesced groups of certain thoughts, but it was only later at certain points that they actually awoke into entities. I don't think current lore says when that happened for any but Slaanesh though.

>>49037335

Be'lakor was hamfisted into 40k. It's no surprise that his creation is similarly poorly conceived.

>>49037288
6e Daemon codex says the same old shit about them being born in the warp from the thoughts and emotions of sentient minds.

>>49048582
>The Emperor would totally take Imperial soldiers along and one would totally be able to survive in such an environment.

You know what doesn't make sense? Emperor thinking he himself and a handful of dudes is enough to take on a city sized daemon ship.

>>49038305
>>49038242

To be fair Khorne was bullshiting Aenarion. He even call him out for trying to stop him while claiming his efforts are futile at the same time.

>>49048676

Considering he was only going take a detachment of Custodes at first and then let Sanguinius and Dorn come and was surprised when he re-materialized on the Vengeful Spirit with only a handful of Custodes we can infer that he probably intended to teleport on to the deck or close to it.

He did seemingly underestimate that what Horus had on board would be a match for the Custodes, but considering they're stronger than Space Marines this is somewhat understandable.

Even still, an Imperial soldier being on the Vengeful Spirit never made sense and was originally likely just supposed to be propaganda, but the fans ironically took it has fact and screeched that the story supposedly replaced him with first a Terminator and later a Custodes.

BL gave in and has made Pious part of the story, but that still wasn't good enough for the fans because they did it in a believable way instead of just tossing sense in the trash.

Pious being all together normal outside of being a Perpetual somehow ruins the humanity fuck yeah, even though it will likely occur that Horus completely wipes Pious from existence.

Instead of a mary-sue, it's one of the few times The Emperor comes off as dogmatic and preachy instead of wise and enlightened. He also gets told by a regular human bean.