I just came across this line while reading the Silmarillion

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>>48977072
Orcs ARE elves. So no.

>>48977072

Probably so. Old JRRT was never happy that the orcs came across as irredeemably evil in LotR.

>>48977106
But using that logic would imply that all the Orcs where fighting for Gil-Galad. And that makes no sense at all.

>>48977181
Orcs fight each other all the time man. And while they're pretty much all evil, they're not psychotic KILL EVERYTHING THAT MOVE. You have groups of men and dwarves making agreements with orcs mentioned in the hobbit

it is certainly plausible to think of a tribe of orcs joining the LA to get at another group of orcs.

Lastly, the Drughu, like Ghan, seem to have an obscure kinship with orcs. Maybe that's enough to count.

Yelp, that's the shape of it. Gross orcs, fighting for justice.

>>48977506
>When we defeat the master's Uruks we will be the ones to swing the lash

>>48980722
Where there's a whip...

>>48977072
This also means there were evil dwarves.

>>48981042
has there been much done in the Tolkien sphere with Morgoth aligned dwarves?

>>48981042
Makes sense to me, Sauron and Saruman were both servants of Aule and turned to Morgoth, why wouldn't some dwarves?

>>48981268
Could be renegade dwarves were responsible for developing the great war machines of the dark and teaching weapon smithing to the orcs. Remember that orcs up to the Fourth Age were counted as gifted craftsman, just cruel minded in their inventions and utilitarian in their designs.

>>48980968
There's a meme

>>48982239
Posting best song
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jVgZDcUQPEY

>>48977072
It would make sense.

Possibly they are fighting because they like fighting and don't care for who.

Possibly they are fighting to be the last orcs of any importance left standing and therefore kings of all orcdom by default.

Possibly they are fighting because FUCK YOU, YOU PRETTY BOY SHIT! WE COULD HAVE BEEN BEAUTIFUL AND CAPABLE OF BEAUTY AND YOU STOLE THAT FROM US! WE GONNA FUCK YOUR SHIT UP OR DIE TRYING!

>>48977072
quite probably
orcs actually hate Morgoth and Sauron and Tolkien didn't like the idea of them being Always Evil

probably a powerful lord like Gil-Galad could break Sauron's control over at least some orcs.

>>48981127
nothing substantial, no. Tolkien just mentioned something along the lines that just a few dwarfs ever joined the dark side.

>>48981268
because Aule specifically forged them resistant to corruption. heck, even the Rings couldn't corrupt them, just ramped up their greed. Maiar attracted to Aule's host are not the same as creatures created by Aule.

>>48983042
>Tolkien didn't like the idea of them being Always Evil
He never said this. Ever.

>>48981268

I have a distinct memory of having read somewhere that dwarves were the only race to never serve a Dark Lord.

>>48983097
“They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote "irredeemably bad"; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimately good.)’’ - The Letters of JRR Tolkien #153

--note, that they are not IRREDEEMABLE

Plus there are such traits as loyalty and respect for worthy opponents shown even in LotR.


I'm sure if my JRRT Letters book was at hand, I'd fish up more quotes.
Also, JRRT was strictly anti-racist IRL, so there's that.

>>48977106
Not entirely true. It was christoffer tolkien that decided to include that origin in the sillmarillion after JRRT died. There was multiple explinations but the one with corrupted elves made more sense to Chris I guess.

>>48983276
What were the other explanations? I never liked the corrupted elves one

>>48983331
corrupted humans

not sure if there was a corrupted beasts explanation, since elevated animals are always a big deal in JRRT's works (i.e. Eagles, Dragons, etc)

>>48983351
He played with the thought of including lesser maiar to iirc.

>>48983276
Pretty sure Treebeard in LotR says something about trolls being a mockery of ents like orcs are a mockery of elves
Also, we know that Morgoth couldn't really make something new

>>48983371
but maiar cannot be born, so that theory doesn't fit the final version

>>48983351
Does that make urukhai 3/4 humans?

>>48983421
hard to say. since corruption is gradual, it can be assumed humans Saruman bred his orcs with were not 100% humans either at that point. so I day it's more like 17/23 human

>>48983097
>>48983216
>blowed up

Why do this? Why make a fool of yourself by making such an unequivocal statement that can be easily refuted if you weren't absolutely sure you were right?

>>48983351
IIRC Dragons weren't really finalised as being elevated animals. No clear explanation was given.

>>48983471
that's most likely explanation, as it is for Eagles. I think the general agreement that Torondor (not sure) and Glaurung (for sure) were incarnated Maiar, and their progeny was elevated beasts with traces of Maiar heritage (explaining dragons' powers). IIRC, of course.
there are other theories, but they are dismantled quickly.

>>48983216
>>48983471
There's a huge difference between
>Tolkien didn't like the idea of them [Orcs] being Always Evil
and
>creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote "irredeemably bad"; but that would be going too far.

>>48983522
Learn to read please, he liked the idea of the world being God's and ultimately good therefore he didn't like the idea of Orcs being irredeemably bad (which is pretty much Always Evil)

>>48983522
I guess it's just a matter of perspective. That quote can be interpreted both ways.

Still, there were orcs on the side of the Last Alliance, so there's that. Of course there can be other reasons, than moral alignment - said loyalty, for instance (say, some elf or man saved an orc chiftain's life for some reason, and so the orc felt loyal enough to even fight for him), or hatred for Sauron + respect for worthy foes ("We hate the guy and he's very powerful, so we'll get both revenge and glory for fighting him").

>>48983548
well, JRRT WAS a Christian, so he could also mean post-mortem redemption. as I said - can be interpreted either way.

>>48983566
so after the post-mortem redemption they were still evil?

>>48983606
their souls become good, of course
they join the Second Music if they corrupted humans, or are reborn into perfect bodies if they are corrupted elves, whatever

>>48977072
that's what happens when you use proxy minis

>>48983506
I don't think it's a viable explanation really.
First, evil corruption of formerly good creatures almost invariably results in weaker imitations. Second, dragons are so different to eagles in several ways I think it's clutching at winged straws to draw a link.

I think this is the best explanation I've read so far
http://cogitemusaccurate.blogspot.com.au/2013/02/concerning-origin-of-dragons.html

From memory, it covers my two objections for why eagles aren't a good source.
I think it posits that Melkor bred huge dumb lizard beasts and then either had an evil maiar possess the body of one or he himself possessed the body of one, and then had scaly sex with each other.

I'm paraphrasing.

>>48983702
I never said Dragons were made from Eagles, just that they were created the same way

>>48983640
Second Music?

>>48983762
just read Silmarillion, it's too beautiful and complex to describe in a fucking 4chan post

>>48983548
Irredeemably bad would be something unforgivable by God. What Tolkien says is pretty clearly 'Orcs are naturally evil, but God can still forgive them, for they are ultimately his creations'.

>>48983720
Oh yeah sorry lol

I understood that at first then forgot the point doing something else.

>>48983762
Creation is a symphony of music created by God.

Basically, he's still working it out and he'll make a second version. Elves aren't in it but Men are.

I've just ruined the magic for you.

>>48983799
Nonsense. The intro is very important, and it is always lovely to have unique aspects to it.

>>48983799
you even managed to fuck that up.
Music, created by his angels (and, later, humans) out of their own free will, which is very important. Even Melkor's theme, which went in contrast to Eru's was still part of Creation.

>>48983827
>Music, created by his angels (and, later, humans) out of their own free will
>Melkor's theme, which went in contrast to Eru's

so did Eru make the music or not

>>48983905
along with others, yes. he sort of made it happen, while they actually shaped the creation
omitting the Ainur is blatantly incorrect

>>48983809
>>48983827
From the perspective of a Christian apologist, yeah sure.

>>48984047
>I can disregard an important part of a world's metaphysics because they are based on a real-world mythology I don't subscribe to
no.

when playing, heck, D&D, you don't disregard gods as an important part of the setting just because they are more or less based on Greek mythology and you don't believe in Greek pantheon.

>>48983827
The music was created by Eru. He gave the Ainur roles and themes to play. Mellon is explicitly said to be the only one to add his own design to it, and it disrupts the theme of Eru. He, however, is able to weave Melkor's discord into his music by adding new elements to it, and by the end He tells Melkor outright that he is but Eru's creation, and that all he does can do nothing to disrupt the plan Eru has laid out but only prove it even grander and more beautiful.

>>48983522
Please, you lost. Admit it, stop trying to save face.

>>48984413
>Mellon

>>48984471
Autocorrect. I didn't want to write this on my phone, but I had little choice if I wanted to get it down today.

>>48984458
See >>48983771

>>48984499
You can't be redeemed from a Christian perspective, especially a Catholic perspective, without recognizing and rejecting, and repenting of Sin BEFORE death. Most catholics further believe that good works are part of redemption - it's not enough to just say Christ is Lord.

>>48984548
Am Catholic, can confirm it as a general rule.

Exceptions made for genuinely repentant sinners on their deathbeds who can't do shit.

It is not enough to say "Lulz sorry for the bad stuff, God iz gud.I can haz free Heaven plz?"

Words are worthless with out good honest effort and good works.

>>48983799
Isn't that second version our own world?

>>48983331
Created from slime, I think. Problem with that was that Evil shouldn't be capable of creating life, only corrupting it.

>>48984640

Not him, but no. The Second Music is supposed to be after a Ragnarok-esque battle where Evil is finally defeated forever, and the world created by the Second Music (which will include Elves, I'm not sure why that anon thinks it wouldn't) will be perfect in all respects, unmarred by evil.

It's basically a post second coming heaven on earth kind of thing

>>48984548
>>48984582
Yes, and Orcs are technically capable of all that, it just doesn't happen.

>>48984660
>it just doesn't happen.
It just isn't mentioned. Important distinction.

If this is true:>>48977072
Some orcs fought Morgoth at his peak. Their creator and the Great Evil of the setting.

>>48983331
That they were a different race altogether. We don't really know what Tolkien had in mind, except that the changed his mind about them being Elves.

>>48984653
Thanks for the answer. I'm sure I read somewhere the far future of middle earth being our world somewhere, but I think I just confused it with something else.

>>48984687

No, that's true as well. Middle Earth is supposed to be a mythic history of our own world, and Tolkien has stated things like he thinks the birth of Jesus marked the beginning (or was it end? I don't have all the letters memorized) of the Sixth Age.

It's just that the second music still hasn't come yet by that timeline.

>>48984687
Tolkien's works are about disappearance of mystical and magical elements in the world and the beginning of the age of men and wisdom. In this way, they are an allegory to the real world, especially to the period Tolkien was writing in.

>>48984771
While the stories does contain allegorical elements (the Ring representing power and its corrupting influence), the stories themselves are not allegories - by which Tolkien meant that they didn't represent any current events (Mordor is not the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany, the Ring is not nuclear weapons, and so on). When he says that Middle-Earth is our world he means so entirely literally. Middle-Earth is a lost age in our own history.

>>48984679
Wasn't it made a big point that Melkor couldn't create life, only corrupt and twist it?

I doubt they'd be their own race.

>>48984869
A separate race as in Orcs existed before Melkor corrupted them, as creatures created by Eru. These early Orcs may not have been entirely malicious by nature, but of a lower standing than say Elves, Men, or Dwarves and easily influenced and swayed by fear.

>>48984582
>t is not enough to say "Lulz sorry for the bad stuff, God iz gud.I can haz free Heaven plz?"
Except it is that way, have you read New Testament. No sin is irredemable.

>>48983216
When do orcs show loyalty or respect for their opponents in LotR? I can only think of examples where they're shown to be disloyal and disrespectful.

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>>48981293

No, the "dwarves are engineers" thing post-dates Tolkien.

For Tolkien, artistry and craftsmanship and doing things the old way was good. Mechanisms and industry were evil. So dwarves and elves produce beautiful works of smithy and architecture and whatnot, while those evil nasty goblins use cogs and blasting powder and other industrial-revolution badness. A dwarf would never make a nasty, smokey steam engine or bomb!

Writers and gamers since then have not shared Tolkien's mechanophobia and WWI shellshock, so the arbitrary distinction has faded. Now we imagine dwarves as being craftsmen of all kinds of stuff.

>orcs are implied to fight together with the free peoples
>sons of feanor immediately slay their shit
>they are either incompetent or suddenly indifferent to morgoth's spawn

Alrighty then

>>48985095
>Mechanisms and industry were evil.

Not /inherently/, though they usually were.

The theme as I interpreted it was more that efficiency plus warfare was evil. Gandalf using gunpowder for his fireworks was artisanship and he was using technology to bring joy and beauty, Saruman's use of technology became to the end of destruction and warfare.

It was less mechanism and progress that was bad, it was more efficiency and impersonality.

>>48984920

You are correct. No one is beyond the reach of God.

But if you have turned your back on God and wish to come back then you have to genuinely want to change. If you are honest in your rejection of sin and embracing of God you will live as he taught and work towards it.

Empty words are empty.

James 2:16
If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

>>48983373
Tolkien specifically pointed out this comment of Treebeard's as an example of characters' in-universe knowledge being potentially flawed. (And in any case, "mockery of" isn't the same as "corrupted".)

>>48983421
Contrary to popular belief, uruk-hai are most likely not a cross between humans and orcs. They're just better orcs.

>>48985473
>And in any case, "mockery of" isn't the same as "corrupted".
While true, it interacts oddly with Morgoth's aforementioned inability to create. If he's made a mockery of something, what did he make it out of?

>>48984771
Tolkien hated allegory though.

>>48985990
see:
>>48984848

>>48983471
Why do this? Why make a fool of yourself by making such an assinine post that can be easily refuted because its stupid?

>>48984582>>48984548

Words AND works are useless. Do you even christian, brahs? Redemption is God's decision only. Based on actual true repentance of the soul in question. Purgatory is a thing, in Catholicism. Look it up, heathen scum.

>>48984679
No, they were elves. (You) are wrong. Stop trolling, fuckhead.

>>48988361

See >>48983276

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>>48984903
Do please tell us more about how orcs aren't corrupted elves - I am enjoying your fantasy make believe story.

>>48985064
Hobbit, audience with the Goblin-King. His hospitality was no worse than the Elven-King's. And given that he didn't 'orc-out' and kill the dwarves right from the start indicates a degree of respect. Not a high degree, but a degree.
LOTR, Ugluk shows tremendous respect for the Rohirrim and their prowess. This also demonstrates Ugluk's intelligence and strategic ability; but respect is respect: Ugluk respected the Rohirrim's resolve and ability. AND Eomer RETURNED that respect by dueling Ugluk alone.

>>48985095
Dwarves make toys of ingenius mechanical complexity. So, no.
Tolkien is about HOW the technology is used, and WHY. The purpose of technology is to UPLIFT mankind, not enslave it.

>>48985230
Grow up, kid. Not all eldar are 'sons of Feanor'. Jesus fucking christ.

>>48988570
The Sindar hunted (and probably ate, hunting for sport alone does at least not seem very Elven) Petty-Dwarves because they thought that they were animals and didn't stop until the Eastern Dwarves reached out and made contact with the Elves, at which point they realised what the 'animals' actually were.

>>48985473
>Tolkien specifically pointed out this comment of Treebeard's as an example of characters' in-universe knowledge being potentially flawed.
Pff! You gonna hafta sauce that, nigga. You gonna hafta sauce that hard.

>>48988402
Oh please! List the others, then. Let's see them.

>>48988603
>Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or underst and. He does not know what' wizards' are, or whence they came (though I do, even if exercising my subcreator's right I have thought it best in this Tale to leave the question a 'mystery', not without pointers to the solution).
>Letter 153 To Peter Hastings

>>48988602
W-what's your point, anon? Elves kill things. Elves can be ignorant and stupid. Sounds a bit like something that could be rather easily corrupted into an 'orc', no?

>>48988620
Read the thread.

>>48988660
Sounds a lot like something that would kill an Orc at sight, son of Fëanor or not.

>>48988639
That sauce doesn't indicate a lack of knowledge of middle earth-y things; just cosmic things. OF COURSE an entity tied solely to Middle Earth is not going to be aware of the goings-on in Aman. Treebeard can't know about angels and such. But he CAN know about the history of his race and the lands in which he dwells - especially when one considers that he is almost without doubt the oldest living thing in Middle Earth.
Try moar.

>>48988663
Done that. Weak arguments. List the others FROM THE SAUCE.

>>48988719
>That sauce doesn't indicate a lack of knowledge of middle earth-y things
He talks specifically about Treebeard's assertion that Morgoth created Trolls and Orcs.

>>48988671
You describe wood elves at the beginning of time. We are talking about end of third age. They've matured since the beginning. They are capable of thought and wisdom now. And compassion, even.
Not to mention, of course, that virtually EVERY ELF ALIVE is absolutely HORRIFIED by the actions of Feanor and his sons.

>>48988763
That wasn't in the sauce provided - why do you lie, anon?

>>48983097, >>48983216
It has to do with the Professor's strongly held Christian beliefs, which maintain that ANYONE can repent for their sins and redeem themselves if they truly desire to, and that Satan (or Morgoth) cannot truly create or make things, only twist the beautiful works of God into evil shapes.

His religious beliefs strongly influenced his writing in one way or another.

>>48984701
>>48984771
That was nice to learn, thanks.

>>48983216
>Also, JRRT was strictly anti-racist IRL, so there's that.

One person wrote a letter to him talking about how he was a fan of how the novels appropriately described a racial war between darker-skinned people and his response was something like
>"I think it's sad when petty, cruel beliefs are so fragile that they must twist the words of other men to find any support for them."

It's honestly about the single most distainful thing I've ever read by him.

>>48988779
Yes, it was, but since you are seemingly incapable of Googling yourself I will provide the full paragraph. (I don't judge, for all I know you might be a really intelligent eagle that has a really hard time typing on a keyboard.)
>As for other points. I think I agree about the 'creation by evil'. But you are more free with the word 'creation' than I am. *Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Ores. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing. There is, to me, a wide gulf between the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my world) have possibly been true. It is not true actually of the Orcs – who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate' creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many Men to be met today. Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand. He does not know what 'wizards' are, or whence they came (though I do, even if exercising my subcreator's right I have thought it best in this Tale to leave the question a 'mystery', not without pointers to the solution).

Note also how Tolkien is very careful about stating outright that Orcs are corrupted Elves. He suggests that they might be, but the most definitive thing we get from him is that they are corripted somethings.

>>48983471
>IIRC Dragons weren't really finalised as being elevated animals. No clear explanation was given.

I liked the idea that wingless cold-drakes were around before Morgoth but that winged Urolaki/fire-drakes were something he made.
Plays nicely on the "he only made things bigger and meaner" theme.

>>48988854
My favorite is his letter to the German publishers who had inquired about his Aryan descent.

>Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject - which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

>Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

It wrote two letters, this one, where he wrote exactly what he felt, and another where he tried to constrain himself more. His publisher went with the second, unfortunately, but it also meant that the cooler one was preserved for us today to read.

>>48988938

>Morgoth
>made things

>>48988994
It's still avremarkably polite way of saying "fuck off with your racist bullshit you gigantic hypocrite".

>>48988336
Wait, are you arguing for Purgatory AND Soli Fide? Gettin' mixed signals here, mang.

>>48988864
So, wait: I've argued that orcs ARE corrupted elves, and your only argument is 'they MIGHT not be corrupted elves'?
So, because Tolkien didn't baldly state it, but rather only suggested it, you cling to the possibility that it may not be true?
That's some wishful thinking on your part, no?

>>48989066
quit memeing, ass

>>48989344
>Soli Fide
Apparently you don't know what that means. Nowhere did I suggest that faith alone will get you to God. God will get you to God. If He wants to; AND if you want to - He won't force you, but He does compel.
According to what is written, anyhow.

>>48989816

If Tolkien suggest that a thing might be true, a valid corollary is that it also might not be true.
You can't take Tolkien suggesting this to mean that it is absolutely true and any assertions to the contrary are groundless. Tolkien's own words quoted above leave space for other explanations.
Getting all smug at him doesn't make your argument look any stronger, dude.

>>48989926
It's entirely possible I'm misremembering it, but it does sound an awful lot like the words you're using. Specifically, it leaps to my mind whenever folks start talking about 'not by works.' Maybe Soli Christi would be nearer the mark? Though, in fairness Soli Fide is built on Soli Christi; we only have faith because of God's work in us.

D'ya kind of see what I'm getting at, where I'm coming from?

>>48989926
>>48990024
Ah, no, I misread some of the words in you post. I should probably stop posting as though I were literate. I more clearly see the points we're differing on now.

But hey! Theology talks with strangers on the Internet. Always a good time.

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>>48989971
>it might be true
>means it also might not be true
Oh, anon! You ain't that clever, either, I see. But do keep fanning the flames of doubt - do keep trying to befuddle people because you don't want to have your precious elfs sullied by the notion of them also bein' orcs - cause that's just ugly and gross.
>a valid corollary
mfw

>>48977072
Does the female Sauron have any grounding in cannon? I know he could take on many shapes so...

>>48990024
I'm the anon you responded to - don't know who that other replier is.
No, I am not seeing your point - do go on, though, I am not trying to silence you.
But now you mention soli christ, and i didn't even come close to talking about Christ. If you wanna nail what I said down to a soli, it would be soli gratia. Grace. God's will.

>>48990513
Given elven androgyny, do you really hafta ask? Sauron is a total weeb ubervillain.

>>48990480
This is as definitive as Tolkien ever gets on the subject
>Suffering and experience (and possibly the Ring itself) gave Frodo more insight; and you will read in Ch. I of Book VI the words to Sam. 'The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them.' In the legends of the Elder Days it is suggested that the Diabolus subjugated and corrupted some of the earliest Elves, before they had ever heard of the 'gods', let alone of God.
He says that it's suggested in the old legends that they are corrupted Elves. He does not state that it is absolutely true.

>>48990576
Ah, yeah. That makes more sense. It's kind of weird, but once I start using the Latin, I tend to forget about that one.

This has been helpful for me in illustrating how much of a review I need on these things. Been too long since I had reason to study any of it.

>>48990513
No, it doesn't.

>>48990608
"Elven androgyny" has no basis in canon either.

>>48989816
>>48990629
Tolkien's most definitive statement on the subject is in Morgoth's Ring: "Orcs are not elvish."

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>>48991021
>Tolkien's most definitive statement on the subject is in Morgoth's Ring: "Orcs are not elvish."

Lol, owned.

>>48991021

New to the conversation, but that statement comes from Myths Transformed; and Morgoth's ring uses the "round world" version of the Silmarillion, which is not the source for the widely published version.

I don't want to start a huge discussion of what is and isn't canon, but you should bear in mind that at the very least Christopher Tolkien rejected that stuff and used the older material to create the Quenta Silmarillion.

>>48990629
>muh, it maybe, perhaps, might not be true, so I say it isn't true
Keep holding on to that thread, anon! You are something special!
>>48990807
Glad I could help, anon! Have fun!
>>48991021
>orcs are NOT elvish
>orcs are orcs (who used to be elves, long ago, so never mention it)
Nice, but weak. Unless you can provide a direct quote, you lose.

>>48991021
You are very perceptive. I knew I had read it somewhere but I couldn't remember where.
>$43 Against the middle portion of this paragraph is a note in the margin: 'Alter this. Orcs are not Elvish.' See pp. 408 ff.

>>48984548
In Spain the wounded would call for a confessioner instead of a medic because they were more afraid of dying without confessing their sins and therefore go to hell than just dying.

Not that the soldiers were scholars or telogists, but theres that.

>>48991068
>New to the conversation, but that statement comes from Myths Transformed; and Morgoth's ring uses the "round world" version of the Silmarillion, which is not the source for the widely published version.

Both of these statements are false. First, the quote is from the Annals of Aman, not Myths Transformed. Second, Morgoth's Ring is one of the main three sources used in making the Silm, along with War of the Jewels and Unfinished Tales. The "round world version" is just an alternate version of the Ainulindale which occupies one of many sections of Morgoth's Ring. The Annals of Aman in particular places the creation of the sun and moon after the destruction of the Two Trees, which is indicative of the flat world cosmology.

>>48991145
You really should read Morgoth's Ring. It's entirely unambiguous in context.

>>48991145
>might not be true, so I say it isn't true

Are you retarded or something? If something "might" be true, then it's reasonable to say "no it isn't."
I mean, it MIGHT be true that sleeping under a pyramid made of PVC pipes will help you live another 300 years, but pardon me if I come right out and say "No, it doesn't."

>>48991172
>entirely unambigous
>One scribbled note in the margin of one story. In a non-canon source.
Yeah, that is conclusive; you got me. I better give up.

>>48991232
It's the most direct single statement. There are entire essays in Morgoth's Ring about the various possibilities of orc origins. And Morgoth's Ring + War of the Jewels + Unfinished Tales are as canon as you can get outside LotR itself.

>>48991206
Oh, you are adorable, clinging to your ambiguity like a drowning sailor to wreckage.
>it COULD be true, oh god, it COULD be true, if only I wish hard enough
>I am just bein' reasonable, y'know, open to alternatives
There comes a time in life, son, when you have got to take a stand and make a decision. You cannot live in Schroedinger's box of indeterminism forever, anon. Sooner or later, you will have to make a clear decision. Sooner or later, you must break free of the womb.

>>48991278
There you go - the best evidence you have is one scribbled sentence fragment in the margin of one non-canonical source. And by 'non-canonical' I mean, unambiguously, direct source for LOTR. Not random side notes, nor world-building essays. Actual concrete traceable precursors to LOTR.
Go.

>>48991145
Turns out that it's really complicated.

>The origin of the Orcs. In QS ($62) the idea had already arisen that the Orcs originated in mockery of the Elves, but not yet that the Orcs were in any other way associated with them: they were a 'creation' of Morgoth's own, 'made of stone', and he brought them into being when he returned to Middle-earth. As AAm was first written (see notes 5 - 7 above) this view still held; the word 'made' was still used - though not the words 'made of stone'. But in AElfwine's note that follows (and which was written continuously with what precedes) they are called 'a spawn of earth corrupted by Morgoth'; and the 'darker tale' told in Eressea - that the Orcs were in their beginning enslaved and corrupted Elves (Avari) - is certainly the first appearance of this idea, contradicting what precedes, or perhaps rather at this stage presenting an alternative theory.

>Finally, at a later time (see note 8), he cut out the whole passage at the end of $127 beginning 'But indeed a darker tale some yet tell in Eressea ...' - either because he only then observed that it had been superseded by $$43 - 5 and was in any case not in the appropriate place, or because he rejected this theory of the origin of the Orcs. See further p. 127, $127.

>>48991381
So nothing in or related to the Silmarillion is canon because it wasn't used as a direct source for LotR?

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>>48991316
>Oh, you are adorable, clinging to your ambiguity like a drowning sailor to wreckage.
>le grow up meme
>implying

>>48991426
fuck off, bait

>>48991381
>>48991517

You don't have to win every single 4chan argument, at this point you aren't contributing anything to the thread.
Post your own quotes and proofs and not just simply insult other posters, this is /tg/

>>48991399
Aha! Now we are getting to the brass tacks, anon - thank you for this quote!
We can see from your quote that the ambiguity is false. The confusion arises with the early versions of Morgoth 'creating' orcs out of stone. THAT is the ambiguous kernel of the 'orcs ain't elves' meme.

What seems to be happening is the researchers studying Tolkien are (a) trying to make careers for themselves; (b) by creating controversy where it does not exist; (c) because they are mistaking AUTHORIAL REVISION (i.e. making changes for the sake of the readability of the tale) for worldbuilding revision. He cut out things and added things for the dramatic effect it would have on his book.

This meme that orcs aren't corrupted elves is just a meme. It seems some folks are not comfortable with the idea that Tolkien elves can be corrupted. So they reject the idea. But Tolkien certainly accepted that his elves could indeed be corrupt.

>>48991673
I accept your apology.
Of course, this whole thread is about the very subject I have been discussing, so...I also accept you're butthurt. Go on, now.

>>48990480
>>48989816
>(1). As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth / Sauron, rebel against him, or criticize him.
>(2). ? Therefore they must be corruptions of something pre-existing.
> (3). But Men had not yet appeared, when the Orcs already existed. Aule constructed the Dwarves out of his memory of the Music; but Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor so as to allow the independence of the Orcs. (Not unless Orcs were ultimately remediable, or could be amended and 'saved'?)
>It also seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable.(2) [Added later: This latter must (if a fact) be an act of Eru.]
>In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with by Melkor.

>>48991711
See >>48991774

The "Orcs are corrupted Elves" theory is the one he one cut.

>>48991799
reread this bit
>What seems to be happening is the researchers studying Tolkien are (a) trying to make careers for themselves; (b) by creating controversy where it does not exist; (c) because they are mistaking AUTHORIAL REVISION (i.e. making changes for the sake of the readability of the tale) for worldbuilding revision. He cut out things and added things for the dramatic effect it would have on his book.

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>>48991868

>quoting your own post as if it was a reliable source

Come back when you can actually refute the citations the other guy made.

>>48991868
tl;dr - Tolkien cut out a bad line in a passage to make the passage read better; he did NOT cut it out to change his 'world'.
I love how the orcs ain't elves argument comes down to this.
>Elves are just TOO pure and TOO good to EVER be corrupted to evil in mind and body. Sure, one or two might go funny in the head, but bodily they are pure and uncorruptible.
Bah! To quote the master: "I think it's sad when petty, cruel beliefs are so fragile that they must twist the words of other men to find any support for them."

>>48991913
lern to reed gud, moron

>>48991970
Tolkien changed his world all the time, and he would even change sections of his books between editions to fit his new notions of how his imaginary world functioned.

>>48992023
You are mistaking his 'corrections' for changes, anon - the changes between editions reflected corrections made by Tolkien, corrections which sometimes originated with him, but more often were brought to his attention by his readers. Corrections of consistency, for the most part; and many spelling/grammatical errors from the printers.

>>48991774
Also worth noting, at a later time Tolkien noted that Orcs may not even have independent wills as they were bound to Morgoth's will, not Sauron's.

>>48992097
No. Changes as in, he added entire sections to The Hobbit when he decided to make it belong to the same world as his mythology rather than being a separate project.

>>48991970

>Elves are just TOO pure and TOO good to EVER be corrupted to evil in mind and body. Sure, one or two might go funny in the head, but bodily they are pure and uncorruptible.


More that the fea, at the last, is impregnable, and that any of the "Orcs are corrupted X" theroies have to ultimately deal with the fact that Morgoth not only permanently damaged the soul of whomever he acted upon, but that violation was so pervasive that it runs into all successive generations, forming something that is no longer what it was.

For the record, "Orcs are corrupted Men" run into pretty much the same issues.

>>48991970
>Elves are just TOO pure and TOO good to EVER be corrupted to evil in mind and body. Sure, one or two might go funny in the head, but bodily they are pure and uncorruptible.

Who in the fuck said that in this thread besides you, you giant flaming autist?

>>48992142
Orcs are corrupted Men doesn't even work as Orcs appeared before Men.

>>48983276
Chris has said that he finished The Silmarillion before he had found and studied a lot of his father's notes. Things like Dagor Dagorath were no longer part of the legendarium as far as Tolkien was concerned, but Chris didn't know that at the time.

>>48992159

If you want to get really pedantic, it's before Men awoke, not before they were created.

Although the notion that Morgoth could have violated Illuvatar's plan that badly does stretch the imagination, as does the notion that if Morgoth did discover the Men before they awoke, how come any of them managed to escape his clutches.

>>48992330
And as Tolkien noted, the corruption being heritable could only be because of an act of Eru. So it seems clear that Orcs either are counterfeits made from mud or stone without free will, though still capable of rebellion against Sauron as he is not their maker, or, like trolls, originally some other creature that existed independently of the other races.

The former seems the most likely to me as the latter still leaves open the problem of how Morgoth was able to so succesfully subjugate and corrupt an entire species.

>>48992444


The problem with that approach though is that unless you want to claim that Orcs don't have a fea, which is at odds with their apparant ability to speak, learn, reproduce, etc., then doing such seems to be far outside of Morgoth's grasp.

Which is probably why Tolkien kept revising the theory, to be honest. I don't think he ever came up with a satisfactory solution.

>>48992477
The Dwarves were taught to speak and write by Aulë before Eru granted them independence. It does not seem impossible that Morgoth would be able to put some of himself into his creations to allow them to appear alive. Of course, Aulë's Dwarves could only act when his mind was upon them, and Orcs seem to be doing fine even as Morgoth was banished from Arda.

>>48992604

Plus, that setup raises some difficulties with the orcish ability to reproduce. If they're held animate by a tiny piece of Morgoth inside them, then as more orcs get born, you'd have to divide it further and further, or Morgoth has to continually fuel their population growth.

And after his dissipation (however you want to interpret that banishment), you'd think they'd be unable to, although the notion that Morgoth's soul is primarily held in the countless numbers of orcs does admittedly have a certain appeal to it.