MTG Magic The Gathering Ask A Judge - Monday Funday Edition

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my friend had the daretti emblem on, and used a shrapnel blast in response of the trigger of the emblem to sacrifice a tapped wurmcoil engine token.

does he take the token back in play untapped, or when he put it in the GY it ceases to exist as a state based action and the emblem can't take it back?

>>48934427
The token will go to the graveyard and trigger the Emblem. Before the trigger goes on the stack, the token will stop existing. Then the trigger is put on the stack, and it will eventually resolve and do nothing, because the token it's looking for no longer exists.

>>48934468
Doesn't Daretti's emblem set up a delayed trigger, or no? Either way, the result is the same, the token won't come back.

>>48934468
I cast Turn To Frog on my 0/20 Tree of Perdition for shenanigans. When Turn To Frog's effect ends, does Tree become 0/20 or 0/13?

If a creature has gift of immortality on it and both the creature and GOI are destroyed separately but at the same time does the effect still happen?

>>48935611
0/20.
Turn To Frog doesn't replace Tree's change it just applies after it.
That change is irrelevant while Turn To Frog is active, but it's still there.

>>48935618
>destroyed separately but at the same time
>but at the same time
Gift of Immortality is able to "see" it's target die.
So it triggers. And the trigger does all the stuff it says it does.

>>48935611
Actually I should clarify the shenanigans since they're probably relevant.
>Activate 0/20 Tree's ability
>Cast Turn To Frog on Tree
>TTF resolves
>1/1 Tree's ability resolves
>Tree becomes 1/16 (let's say)
What happens at EoT? My gut tells me 0/13, but my understanding of layers is lacking.

>>48935695
Oops should've refreshed before I posted. Good to know. So in >>48935698's case, it'd be 0/16?

>>48935695
>replace
Kind of an ambiguous word here, *supplant

>>48935698
They're all power/toughness changing effects*, so it's down to time stamps.
*well, Turn To Frog does other things too, but those don't matter for this discussion
Order is T->20, P/T->1/1, T->16
So it becomes a 1/16, then at eot the P/T->1/1 goes away and it becomes a 0/16

>>48935592
It does, my bad. But even if it was just "Whenever an artifact is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, return it" it wouldn't bring tokens back.

>>48935611
In the scenario described, 0/20.

>>48935698
In THIS scenario, 0/16. The "I have 16 toughness now" effect you just used is 'newer' than "I have 1 toughness" from Turn to Frog, so it overrides it. When Turn to Frog's effect ends later in the turn nothing changes, because you still have an effect saying it's got 16 toughness.

>>48935618
Like both hit by a "destroy all nonland permanents" thing? Yeah, Gift still 'sees' it die and sets up the delayed triggers.

>>48935847
>>48935765
Great, thanks judge!

Is there any particular reason all instances of "his or her" isn't just replaced with "their"?

>>48936130
Their can be plural. Avoids confusion.

>>48936130
Not that I'm immediately aware of. I would guess >>48936153 is a reason, but my guess is just as good as yours.

>>48936153
>>48936909
So apparently this was actually asked of MaRo some time ago, and the official response he gave is that putting "they" on a card means they can't put "she" on a card (as with 'he or she'), and they care more about making female identified persons feel included than about making nonbinary persons feel included.

>>48936959
I...is this a serious answer that Maro gave? I don't want to believe this.

>>48937531
From what I've heard. I'd have to check his tumblr.

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>>48935618
Just expanding upon what was said here:
Things that happen simultaneously "see" eachother.
Simultaneously is essentially: "the order of the active player's choice, with 'later' things seeing 'earlier' things"
If two things enter simultaneously, they see eachother.
If two things exit simultaneously, they see eachother.
etc.


>>48936130
Maro has answered this a few times, usually pretty dismissively.
But his most recent answer was pretty informative. c >>48936153
+while "his" is acceptable as gender neutral it miffs a vocal minority.

Evening bump. I'll be headed home shortly.

sup mtg. I'm looking for a ruling on something. I run magus of the disk, and boros charm in a casual deck with some friends, and i've heard different rulings on something. If I tap magus of the disk for it's effect, and then play boros charm for its indestructible effect, does that protect my permanents from being destroyed or does magus negate the boros charm since it's a global effect?

>>48940538
I don't know who's been lying to you, but that's not how it works. A "global effect" has no bearing on indestructible, and vice versa; they may be thinking of it like Damnation vs Doom Blade for pro-black or Shroud creatures, where the wrath spell dodges the protections because it doesn't target, but that's not how Indestructible works.


tl;dr Boros Charm + Mago de Disco = Combo

>>48940538
>global effect
You're confusing "indestructible" with "protecton from X".

>>48940590
>>48940598

Thanx anons. good to know this combo works.

>>48940891
>anons

And home.

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>>48940464
>>48942321
>2 hour commute

>>48942519
More like "errands and chores before I can sit down to enjoy my evening".

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>>48942530
>enjoying 4chan

>>48942670
Hey, the only other explanation for me doing this 5 years later is masochism.

I've heard that Voidmage Apprentice can beat split second because turning cards face-up is a special action.
What exactly is that?

>>48942818
A special action is something you can do when you have priority, which happens immediately and does not use the stack. Playing a land is a special action, for example.

>>48942871
Also note that most special actions can be taken whenever you have priority, but some have timing restrictions baked in, like the aforementioned playing of a land.

>>48875543
I get that your deck isn't padded with lands, but...
Sovereign’s Realm seems loads worse than Worldknit.

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I draft a second Noble Bannaret and note it with the first.
If I have a single Noble Bannaret in play, does it give itself +1/+1 twice?

>>48943059
once

>>48943059
Nah.

>As long as you control one or more creatures with a name you noted for cards named Noble Banneret, Noble Banneret and those creatures get +1/+1 and have lifelink

It'll boost anything you named for any Noble, and also itself, but that's all one ability. Now, if you play both Bannerets, they'll each get +1/+1, and the named dudes get +2/+2, but each Banneret only gets +1/+1 from how I kennit.

>>48943191
he mean he named noble banneret as the named creature

>>48943247
Ah, my bad! In that case, no. Each Flagface will boost itself, and any creatures you have named for Flagfaces. So Flagface 1 boosts itself and Flagface 2, and Flagface 2 boosts itself and whatever it named. So, Flagface 1 is only getting +1/+1 from its own ability, while Flagface 2 gets a boost from itself AND Flagface 1.

Incidentally, anything you named for Flagface 2 also gets +2/+2 in this scenario.

>>48942702

I remember you play a lot of EDH and... Limited?
What else do you play?

How firm a grasp of the rules does the rest of your playgroup have?

>>48935847
>When Turn to Frog's effect ends later in the turn nothing changes
It stops being a Frog, stops being blue, loses 1 power, becomes a Plant, becomes black, gains Defender, and gains its activated ability.

>>48945046
Mostly that. EDH is the only constructed format I play; I don't keep up with Standard because I'd never play it (though I may build a cheapo deck to play/judge at FNMs soon), Legacy is super neat but my playgroup is broke AF so it'd be a waste of money, and Modern is a garbage fire.

I play EDH because it's common in my group, I can take it to any big event and get in games, and my decks don't rotate. Plus it's fun. Limited is mostly "sometimes I draft, and also prereleases exist".

My group's grasp on the rules ranges from "shaky but servicable" to "nonexistent".

>>48945137
>>48945160
>>48945184
I meant regarding layer 7c, specifically. Should have clarified, mea culpa.

>>48945208
For Standard, that mono-green Werewolves shit look amusing, not sure how viable it would really be though, but absolutely covers the "cheap" base.

It's gonna drive me nuts that I had an actual rules question for you this morning, maybe while looking at Conspiracy 2 spoilers, but I never wrote it down and have totally forgotten now. Oh well!

>>48945268
Oh, it doesn't need to be good. I can't win games of Magic with GOOD cards, so why try? I just want something to 'justify' showing up to get paid free entry and maybe some tacos to help out with rules questions while I'm playing.

So how do omniscence and thalia/sphere effects interact? Are they still free or do you have to pay 1 or more for every non creature spell?

>>48945882 Modifying the total cost doesn't hinder you when you aren't paying the cost.

>>48945882
Take base or alternate cost. in this case, "free" is the alternate cost.

Apply cost increases (thalia, Sphere of Resistance)

Apply cost reductions (Etherium Sculptor)

Apply 3sphere.

So Thalia makes you have to pay "Free, plus one mana". So, one mana.

>>48945939
Incorrect.

Hey gA, question about Spell Queller and blink spells. An opponent casts Essence Flux on their Spell Queller, which is exiling a spell of mine (say a Declaration in Stone). Essence Flux resolves, so Spell Queller is exiled. Does the LTB trigger go on the stack after Queller comes back into play, meaning he can't re-target the same Declaration in Stone it was previously exiling?

>>48946047
The LTB trigger can't go onto the stack until Essence Flux has fully resolved- meaning Queller has come back, and there's also an ETB trigger. No matter how he stacks those, the ETB trigger needs a target the second it goes on the stack; it cannot possibly 'eat' the same spell that the Queller originally had under it. If there's a spell on the stack, he has to target that; if there's no spell, he just loses that ETB trigger, effectively, and gives you back your spell that Queller had... quelled.

>>48946096
Thanks, appreciate it.

>>48945939
What is your source?

>>48946158
My source is that I was wrong.
>117.9. Some spells have alternative costs. An alternative cost is a cost listed in a spell's text, or applied to it from another effect, that its controller may pay rather than paying the spell's mana cost. Alternative costs are usually phrased, "You may [action] rather than pay [this object's] mana cost," or "You may cast [this object] without paying its mana cost." Note that some alternative costs are listed in keywords; see rule 702.

Lifelink question.

If I have say a fatty with Lifelink which gets blocked by a 0/1, does it still do its full power in damage and therefore Lifelink?

>>48946235
The best source!

>>48946242
Full power. Creatures deal damage equal to their power (or toughness, with Doran and friends); it's not "deal until lethal and stop". Otherwise, Stuffy Doll would be a really, really bad card.

ANyway- I'm hitting the sack. More thread tomorrow gang!

>>48946242
Yes. Creatures deal damage equal to their power.

>>48946302
>>48946306

I was fairly sure of that, I just wanted to be wrong so I didn't have to plough through 50 life

>>48946351
>I was fairly sure of that, I just wanted to be wrong
Welcome to "85% of all appeals I have ever gotten". Most appeals are "I'm almost entirely sure this works how you say it does, but I really, really hope it doesn't, so can I appeal?"

>>48946351
An interesting sidenote here is that you *don't* gain life from "prevented" damage.
So, if the 0/1 had "Protection from fatties" or whatever, you wouldn't gain any life.

On the other hand, if your fatty had trample you could dome them for all but 1 of the lifelink (since trample cares about assigning damage, not dealing it).

Or, lets say you have a 4/4 lifelink trample and you opponent had a vanilla 0/1 and targeting themselves for prevention with Healing Salve (who knows why),
you could assign 1 damage to the 0/1, then choose to assign the remaining 3 damage to the 0/1 (because trample is weird) to get the lifelink.

Does the new Selvala ability check all creatures on the battlefield or just the ones you control?

>>48946648
It triggers for any creature entering, and upon resolution checks to see if it has greater power than anything else. It checks everything; if your opponent has a 5/5, you need to play a 6/x to get the draw, even if all your creatures top out at 3 power right now.

Am I misreading Flash McClone, or is it priced the same as Clone?

>>48946734
It's priced the same. They did the same thing with Gigantoplasm- same exact cost as Clone, but with an upside.

>>48946754
Does Gigantoplasm not have its upside if it enters as itself?
Say I play it a la. Force of Savagery while no creatures are in play, then want to boost it's toughness in response to losing my toughness booster?

>>48946830
It does not. The one-man Biomantic Mastery is part of the copy effect; if you don't copy something, it will just come in as a 0/0.

Let's say for grins that you played a 'blank' Gigantoplasm (or any other 0/0 clone) and then copied it with another Gigantoplasm. In that case, you would have a 0/0 Gigantoplasm with the boost ability. If it were only alive due to something like a Glorious Anthem, you could respond to a Disenchant aimed at same by activating it for X=not 0 to save it. You would have to do so before the boosting effect stopped though.

BED NOW

>>48935847
When you say an effect is newer than another, does that mean it's resolved more recently, or was put on the stack more recently?

>>48947959
resolved

I remembered my question! Will post now, either another anon will answer it or you hopefully do tomorrow.

It's about phasing, your favorite, and Sneak Attack/Through the Breach/etc. effects. Let's say I decide to be silly and throw a Vanishing onto it. I pay the cost, it phases out and goes under the good old Cup 'o Phasing. Am I still forced to pay the piper and sacrifice it at end of turn? Or does the Cup prevent me from worrying about this?

You can use Final Fortune imprinted on Isochron's Scepter and Sundial of the Infinite to take infinite turns, right?

Just use the Sundial to clear the delayed "Lose the game at the end of your next turn" trigger before the end of that turn, right?

>>48948349
>the good old Cup 'o Phasing
That analogy works for your question's purposes, but it's not a great analogy.

Here's a better one:
Pretend every single rule and effect that doesn't mention "phased-out" permanents somewhere,
actually says "phased in" before every mention of any permanents.

>Wrath of God
>Destroy all phased in creatures. They can't be regenerated.

>Lightning Bolt
>Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target phased in creature or player.

>105.3. Effects may change a phased in object's color or give a color to a phased in colorless object. If an effect gives a phased in object a new color, the new color replaces all previous colors the object had (unless the effect said the object became that color "in addition" to its other colors). Effects may also make a phased in colored object become colorless.

>Stitcher's Apprentice
>1U, T: Put a 2/2 blue Homunculus creature token onto the battlefield, then sacrifice a phased in creature.

>119.3d. Damage dealt to a phased in creature by a phased in source with wither and/or infect causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature.

and so on...

This is a good analogy because it's essentially what's actually happening:
>702.25b. If a permanent phases out, its status changes to "phased out." Except for rules and effects that specifically mention phased-out permanents, a phased-out permanent is treated as though it does not exist. It can't affect or be affected by anything else in the game. A permanent that phases out is removed from combat. (See rule 506.4.)
Now, you have to imagine cleaner wording changes than that (to differentiate between non-permanent objects and permanent objects, but still)
>>48948397
That is a working combo.

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>>48948349
>From Maro's silver bordered FAQTIWCAWCC: (Frequently Asked Questions That If We Didn't Answer Would Cause Chaos)

>Turn #1 -- You play Old Fogey.
>Turn #2 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
>Turn #3 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {1}." (This assumes your abilities have the ability to speak -- mine do). Echo says, "Pay {GG} or sacrifice Old Fogey." And finally fading says "Take off one of my three fading counters."
>Turn #4 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
>Turn #5 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {2}." Echo says, "I'm good." And fading says "Take off another fading counter. I'm down to one."
>Turn #6 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
>Turn #7 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {3}." Echo says, "I'm still good." And fading says "Take off my last fading counter."
>Turn #8 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases out.
>Turn #9 -- During your untap step before you untap, Old Fogey phases in. Cumulative upkeep says, "Hey, pay {4}." Fading then chimes in and says, "You know, I'm going to make you sacrifice Old Fogey. Do you really want to pay {4}?" Then cumulative upkeep says, "Maybe I will. What are you going to do about it?" And then echo says, "Guys, can't we just all get along? Can't we all just get along? Get along? Along?" A fight then ensues which ends with Old Fogey's death.

>>48948349
Wait, did you specifically mean "can phasing dodge the vanishing sac trigger"?
No. Vanishing and Phasing happen during separate phases (Upkeep and Untap),

*if they happened in the same phase (which they don't) you still couldn't dodge the sac trigger.
But you would be able to avoid removing counters in that particular bizarro world.

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outdated question
If Foe-Razer Regent fights twice in a turn does it receive two or four counters at the next end step? One example is if it enters the battlefield while Frontier Siege is set to Dragons and it fights two bears on entry.

>>48950110
Four.

>>48947959
Technically I mean "existed". Continuous effects in the layers system can just exist because of a static effect (think Elesh Norn, or Glorious Anthem), or they can be created by the resolution of a one-shot effect (think Jump or Turn to Frog). When two or more continuous effects apply in the same layer, we look at whichever 'existed' most recently; the continuous effects from a static ability have a timestamp of "as soon as they started" (so for Norn or Anthem, once the permanent entered the battlefield), and the one-shots begin as the effect resolves.

>>48948349
Sacrifice what? It doesn't exist. Trigger comes, resolves, and does nothing because it can't find the thing you cheated out.

>>48948397
Yes. Whether you use the Sundial to skip past the delayed trigger or to exile it while it's on the stack, both work to let you keep doing it over and over.

>>48948511
But I like my analogy.

>>48948575
He was asking about Vanishing, the Aura (which can be used to phase the enchanted creature out), not Vanishing the triggered ability.

>>48948590
The question was "Can I cheat something in with a delayed 'sac at end of turn' trigger, and phase it out during that turn via Vanishing to dodge the sac trigger that turn", which you can. You're (correctly) answering a question nobody asked.

>>48950110
Four. Each time a creature you control fights, Foe-Razer sets up a delayed trigger that fires at the beginning of the next end step. If it fought twice, it'll have two triggers each giving 2 counters.

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no way to have avacyn flip during the same turn something dies huh? Someone was saying you could sac selfless during the upkeep or untap or some shit to have it flip with indestructible

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>>48951207

>>48951245

fugg

well my other question regarding her would be the legend rulings on her back side and front side

>>48951207
Technically you could enchant yourself (or an opponent, I guess) with Paradox Haze and kill something during Upkeep 1. Then she'd transform during Upkeep 2.

>>48951271
Archangel Avacyn is not named Avacyn the Purifier.

>>48951028
if a Foe-Razer fights on entry and then gets blinked through Essence Flux or whatever and fights a second time, does the first delayed trigger happen or does the dragon not recognise that first trigger and only gib counters from the second instance of Fight?
>cast FRR
>fights a nigga
>Essence Flux FRR
>fight another nigga
>how many counters?

>>48951271
yes, you can control both Avacyn's backside and her frontside at the same time. however, if the second flips you'll need to delete one as they'll share a name

>>48951686
The first delayed trigger HAPPENS, it just doesn't do anything. It'll trigger at the appropriate time, and resolve, but the object it's looking to put counters on no longer exists, so the ability just resolves without accomplishing anything..

>>48951207
>Someone was saying you could sac selfless during ... untap or some shit to have it flip with indestructible

Wait why wouldn't this work? Sac Spirit before upkeep which triggers Avacyn and then she transforms in upkeep.

If I have multiple replacement effects for the same effect, which happens?
>Enchantment that causes you to gain life instead of losing life and lose the game at 20 hp
>Worship makes it so that if I would take damage that sets me below 1 hp I go to 1 instead.
Which one do I use?

>>48951721

you cant activate abilities in the untap can you?

>>48951721
Mostly because there is no "before upkeep". Nobody has priority during a turn before the upkeep.

>>48951749
The affected player (or if it's an object being affected, that object's controller) chooses which replacement effect to apply first. After that, if any can still apply, they choose from those.

Worship has a replacement effect, but Transcendence is not; it's a trigger. If you take a hit that would put you below 1, Worship has you take that hit, but it doesn't reduce you below 1. So say you're at 5, and take 10 damage. Worship says you still take 10 (so if it was a lifelink creature, your opponent would gain 10), but it only reduces your life total by 4. Transcendence triggers and gains you 8 life, putting you at 9.

>>48951787
You cannot.

So the turn order goes as such?
>Untap: no spells or abilities or anything can happen during this step besides untapping
>Upkeep: yadda
>Main Phase 1
>Declare attackers: Effects and abilities and spells can't happen until AFTER all attackers are declares.
>Declare Defenders: as above.
>M phase 2
>End step: clean up damage and "until end of turn" effects.

>>48951874
The turn is broken up into phases, some of which are broken up into steps.

>BEGINNING PHASE
Untap Step **
Upkeep Step
Draw Step*
>PRECOMBAT MAIN PHASE
>COMBAT PHASE
Beginning of Combat Step
Declare Attackers Step*
Declare Blockers Step *
Combat Damage Step*
End of Combat Step
>POSTCOMBAT MAIN PHASE
>END PHASE
End Step
Cleanup Step ***

The Untap step, nobody ever, ever, ever gets priority, no matter what, under any circumstances. The Cleanup Step NORMALLY nobody gets priority, but it is possible in some situations; if that happens, the game creates another cleanup step after the current one in an attempt for one to happen 'normally'. It will keep daisy-chaining Cleanup Steps until one happens without anyone getting priority.

The steps marked with an asterisk begin with a Turn-Based Action that happens in full before anyone has priority to do things.

>>48934040
Hey, quick question, I'm toying around with my Brion Stoutarm commander deck, and I came across this situation.
I had a creature with Deathrender on it, and had sigil of the new dawn on the field.

Could I potentially sac the creature with the Deathrender, have sigil of the new dawn put it into my hand again and only then have deathrender's effect trigger and immediately put it onto the battlefield with deathrender attached again? My gut tells me I can, since I can decide the trigger order myself, but I wanted to be sure.

>>48952435
So, when the creature dies you have a trigger from Deathrender and a trigger from Sigil of the New Dawn. If you put the Deathrender trigger on the stack first, you can have the Sigil trigger return it to your hand, and then it's in your hand when you're choosing what creature to put from your hand onto the battlefield via Deathrender. So you can totally do that.

>>48952470
Thanks!

>>48952478
Happy to help!

Hey, what would you do after discovering someone has fakes? Is there anything you can do against the person, if they will deny they knew about the fakes?

>>48957523
Within a tournament setting in which I am acting as an officiant, I would begin an investigation to determine whether or not the player knew they were fakes. The vast, vast, VAST majority of the time this comes up, they bought or traded for what they genuinely thought were legit cards, and got ripped off. All that can be done in that case is to allow them a reasonable amount of time to secure replacements, or replace the cards with basic lands and update the decklist to reflect that. Depending on how bad that 'option' buttfucks their chances, I'll also suggest to the TO that they should be given the option to drop for a partial or full refund, because holy bad beats.

If I have reasonable suspicion that the player knowingly brought fake cards to my event, that's an easy DQ for Fraud.

>>48942926
If you draft 6+ conspiracies (so <40 non-basics cards to go in your deck) are you unable to run Sovereign's Realm?

>>48959456
That's how I kennit. You can't put basics in your deck with Sovereign's Realm, so your deck has to be 40 cards without basics. If you have enough Conspiracies that you can't present a 40 card deck without adding basic lands, then you can't use Sovereign's Realm.

I've heard equipping Endrehk Sahr with Assault Suit may cause a game draw if don't have a sac outlet for his Thrulls

Would you cause a similar game draw if you don't pay mana for Nicol Bolas' upkeep mana requirement whilst equipping him with the Suit?

>>48962032
Nah. Bolas' trigger says "Pay this or sac me", you don't pay, the trigger tries to make the controller sac him but can't, and the game shrugs and moves on.

The same thing happens with Endrek Sahr, but he has a STATE trigger- any time that trigger condition is true (and there's not already one of those triggers on the stack), the trigger will fire. So the trigger fires, tries to make the controller sac him, and fails because they can't. Then it fires again. And again. And again. Similar to the three O-Ring loop, there's no alternate choice anyone can take to break it; even if they had a 'free' sac outlet like Goblin Bombardment, they wouldn't be forced to use that to break the loop because it's outside the loop itself.

Figured I'd post it here too just cause. I made an EDH but I feel like it doesn't have enough draw or any good ways to get my stuff back from the graveyard other than Elixir of Immortality. What are some good artifacts or white cards that let me draw? Good ones that let me get stuff back from my graveyard? Link to deck here:

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/23-08-16-isamaru-voltron/

>>48962086
how would you write Endrek Sahr to fix that? Is there any other card that can end the game with a 'constantly checking' paradox?

>>48963830
>Is there any other card that can end the game with a 'constantly checking' paradox?
Yes. The vast majority of cards with state triggers.

>how would you write Endrek Sahr to fix that?
He wouldn't, because that's not his job.
The people who's job that is wouldn't, because they don't like imposing mechanical changes.

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>>48963864

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How does Eye of the Storm work with split second? Say I cast Trickbind on an Eternal Witness etb, do I then exile it with EofS or not? If so when it's exiled and I have the ability to cast the copy do I have to wait until I cast all other copies first before the split second or does it not matter at that point?

>>48964383
Copying isn't casting, and trigging isn't activating.
>“Split second” means “As long as this spell is on the stack, players can’t cast other spells or activate abilities that aren’t mana abilities.”

>do I then exile it with EofS or not?
You do.

I'm not sure what your wording is asking after that, but it's probably irrelevant.
Nobody has priority *while* the trigger is resolving, the copies are put onto the stack before the trigger finishes resolving.
The copies have split second and are on the stack.

Question regarding a weird scenario: I control a Thassa, God of the Sea, Cloudfin Raptor, Temur Ascendency, and a Delver of Secrets. My opponent controls a Blinding Obedience. I cast a second Thassa, God of the Sea. What happens? Does this differ any if the Delver is transformed?

>>48964561
Card rulings are your friend:
>9/15/2013 If a God enters the battlefield, your devotion to its color (including the mana symbols in the mana cost of the God itself) will determine if a creature entered the battlefield or not, for abilities that trigger whenever a creature enters the battlefield.

>What happens?
The second Thassa enters tapped, then you put one of them into your graveyard as a state based action, then Ascendancy triggers, then the trigger resolves and you draw a card.
>Does this differ any if the Delver is transformed?
It enters untapped and Ascendancy doesn't trigger.

>>48963822
>draw
Hedron Archive and it's varieties, Land Tax, Solemn Simulacrum

>recur from yard
Sun Titan, lark, Emeria Sky Ruin etc etc (this is pretty much white's speciality and there's so many that i forgot all of it)

>>48964664
Mostly right. It'll enter tapped, then you pick a Thassa to keep and one to bin, then you draw a card from Ascendancy.

If Delver is transformed, your answer is correct.

>>48967150
And now I'm at the office.

So how does Mirrorwing Dragon work with Rabid Bite? One-sided Wrath or all creatures deal their damage to the same single creature?

>>48967953
Neither. Mirrorwing Dragon only copies spells that ONLY target it. Rabid Bite has two targets.

If i'm reading the wording right then Does a Stunt Double copying an Arcane Savant work in letting you copy and cast the spell exiled with the prior Arcane Savant?

>>48968181
Based on the answers Tabak has been giving about Arcane Savant shenanigans, I'd say yes. The two abilities are linked, which normally fucks shit up because linked abilities exist on the same card (as in, the ability on your second guy can't be linked to the first guy you copied), but they're changing things a bit to make the Arcane Savant cycle... well, work.

Based on what he's said, the second ability on Arcane Savant (or indeed, something copying it) is linked to first ability of ANY objects that had that specified name before the game began. So I'm giving a tentative 'yes'.

>>48968181
>7/15/2007 Any enters-the-battlefield abilities of the copied creature will trigger when Clone enters the battlefield. Any “as [this creature] enters the battlefield” or “[this creature] enters the battlefield with” abilities of the chosen creature will also work.

>>48968258
The hinky thing here is that Arcane Savant's abilities are linked, and they're a WEIRD kind of linked ability. If I play a Phyrexian Metamorph copying your Mimic Vat, my Mimic Vat doesn't "copy" what's imprinted on yours because linked abilities.

But yeah, Arcane Savant and friends have weird wording that makes me feel this works.

>>48968238

>The two abilities are linked, which normally fucks shit up because linked abilities exist on the same card (as in, the ability on your second guy can't be linked to the first guy you copied)

This is precisely the reason why I asked because my understanding was that a card that enters play as a copy of a card also copies the name also(if i'm correct?), so then I read further on Arcane Savant and it was the text "copy a card you exiled with cards named Arcane Savant" very specifically the exact words "cards named Arcane Savant" which is what got me thinking to ask the question.

Well at least you'll never have to worry about this interaction outside of a Conspiracy 2 draft.

>>48968379
It does copy the name unless explicitly noted otherwise, like with Sakashima the Imposter.

But yeah. NORMALLY no, because linked abilities, but these linked abilities are weird. I'll get someone to tweet Tabak to double check.

>>48967150
>>48964664
Delvers cmc is the same on whether it's flipped or not, it was recently changed

>>48969217
It still doesn't contribute to devotion. It has a CMC of 1, but no mana cost.

>>48969217
CMC, yes, but ONLY CMC. Delver of Secrets has a mana cost of U, and a CMC of 1. Insectile Aberration has a CMC of 1, and a mana cost of {NULL}. No mana cost, no symbols, no devotion (or Chroma!)

Let's say I have Helm of Obedience and Leyline of the Void out. Someone tries to destroy my Helm; in response, I play Pact of Negation. On my next upkeep, I don't have enough mana to pay for the Pact; however, before I lose, I tap Helm and pay its activation, winning before my "lose the game" trigger can activate. Is this legal?

>>48969995
Triggers don't activate, they trigger. You can't do this before your "pay or die" trigger fires, but you CAN do it before it kills you, by responding to the trigger while it's on the stack. It doesn't just instantly kill you; it's a trigger, so it uses the stack and can be responded to as one would expect.

Alright, have to go get lunch, back in a flash and a half.

>>48969995
>>48970064
Be aware that your opponent must still fail to draw a card from their empty library to lose.

My question doesn't have anything to do with game rules but with tournament organization

Is a store allowed to hold rare redrafts as an official FNM draft event? Are they allowed to ban players from attending FNMs if they drop before final round is over?

>>48970144
I didn't think so; if Helm of Obedience tries to take an additional card from their empty library but fails, doesn't that remove them from the game immediately? Also, another question: can I Stifle the "lose the game" trigger if I have one blue mana open?

>>48970218
Does it say draw?
no? Then he's not drawing off an empty library.

>>48967150
If devotion is 4, wouldn't Thassa enter the battlefield untapped?
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2013/10/gods-4-devotion-and-entering-the-battlefield/

>>48970144
Good point.

>>48970218
You don't lose for having an empty library, or trying to mill from an empty library, you die for trying to draw from an empty library. Has to be 'draw', specifically.

>>48970161
It is legal for a store to do redrafts, I've asked this before. It's stupid as almighty thunderfuck, but it is legal for them to say that's their format.

It's also legal in the WPN sense and the law sense for you to just walk out the door with the cards in your possession from the draft, and they can't stop you. They CAN ban you from their store if they see fit; banning you from their FNMs while allowing you to patronize the store is another story.

>>48970458
It does, I'm just a dipshit and forgot to put in the 2 letters necessary for my 'correction' to be a correction instead of just repeating their answer.

Is Phyrexian mana the same in all zones, for example if I have Varolz, The Scar Striped out and a Thundering Tanadon in the graveyard can I scavenge that for 4 life and 4 colorless?

>>48971183
It is; Varolz gives it a Scavenge cost exactly equal to the mana cost it normally has, which means you can pay they Phryexian portions with life instead of mana. Same as letting you pay either way for a creature with hybrid symbols.

>>48971204
Awesome thanks, onward to gatherer to actually make that useful

>>48934040
Perhaps am being retard sorry if my question is too stupid , can a mutilate, wrath of god, direct damage such a lightning Bolt can kill a planeswalker?

>>48972191
Well, Mutilate and Wrath of God don't do anything to them by default because they aren't creatures. That'd be like asking if Wrath of God destroys artifacts or enchantments.

Direct damage can hurt a planeswalker, in a sort of roundabout way. If a source you control would deal non-combat damage to an opponent (for example, "Lightning Bolt, targeting you"), you may redirect ALL of that damage to one Planeswalker they control upon resolution of said effect.

People frequently verbally shortcut this for simplicity; "Bolt your Jace" is understood to mean "Bolt targeting you, and redirect the damage to your Jace upon resolution", but you can just chuck a damage spell at your opponent and when they say it resolves, tell them that you're having it hit their planeswalker instead. They don't get that information until it's too late to respond, unless you're kind enough to preemptively offer it. Also, at no point are you targeting the planeswalker itself in this way, so you can use it to burn planeswalkers that have Hexproof or Shroud. Conversely, if your OPPONENT has Hexproof or Shroud, you're limited to global damage like Earthquake, because you can't target them in the first place now.

This ONLY applies to hitting an opponent; you can't cast an Earthquake for X=50 and redirect 'your' damage to one of your planeswalkers to save you.

>>48972261
Thank you so much, am starting to play again, and back in my Day we didn't have planewalkers so i knew a little of how to deal with them. Thanks again!

>>48972338
Yeah, at first they seem a little unintuitive, but once you start to grasp it the rest just locks into place really easily.

Couple other things: you don't redirect COMBAT damage, because you can just attack the planeswalkers directly. You don't have to commit fully to one or the other- you could send some attackers at the player, and some at his planeswalker if you want.

Planeswalkers can only be activated at times you could normally cast a sorcery: during your main phase while the stack is empty; you can't do it (normally, anyway) on someone else's turn or in response to things. You can also only do it once per turn, and the adding/removal of counters is a cost that can't be responded to.

Finally, Planeswalkers work KINDA like Legendaries, but they go off of Subtype, not Name. I can have an Archangel Avacyn and Avacyn, Angel of Hope on the field together, but I can't have a Jace Beleren and a jace, the Mind Sculptor because the Planeswalker Uniqueness Rule goes by planeswalker subtype, rather than name.

>>48948511
Fuck that I love the stupid cup. Good explanation in general though.

>>48948542
I need dinosaurs back in Magic. None of that Lizard bullshit either.

>>48948575
>>48951028
Yeah I meant Vanishing the Aura, not almost-Fading the ability. UU: Enchanted creature phases out.

Thanks for the explanations, everyone!

What parts of an object are included in its last known information?

>>48973572
Basically "whatever's relevant". What color it was, what type it was, whether the source had a relevant ability like Lifelink/Deathtouch. I don't think it's mapped out in detail in the CR because it's just a "use your head" common sense kinda thing.

>>48973708
What about how many fade counters are on Tangle Wire?

>>48973778
Number/type of counters should be included, since that's how persist and undying function.

Well, they don't care about number so much as type, but it's the same kind of thing.

>>48973778
Also relevant! That trigger wants to know how many counters are on Tangle Wire, but Tangle Wire no longer exists in the capacity expected. So the trigger looks back in time to the last moment that said Tangle Wire DID exist, checks how many counters were on it, and uses that info.

Does Aegis of the Gods (You have Hexproof) protect you from Planeswalker abilities, i.e. Jace Memory Adepts 0 - (Target player puts the top 10 cards into their graveyard)?

Hi! Suppose in a multiplayer game Player A attacks Player B with 10/10 creature. Before damage is assigned, Player A casts Magnetic Theft targeting Player B’s Grafted Exoskelton and his own 10/10. Will Player A have to sacrifice his 10/10 once Player B leaves the game?

>>48974048
Hexproof (You cannot be the target of spell or abilities your opponents control).
A Planeswalker ability is an ability your opponents control, so no. You can't be the target of its illegal for you to be the target.

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What happens when Dimir Doppleganger copies something that returns to the battlefield after it is killed like Phytotitan? Does it fizzle or return as Dimir Doppleganger?

>>48974131

>7/18/2014 Phytotitan’s ability will return it to the battlefield only if it’s still in the graveyard when the delayed triggered ability resolves. If it’s not, it won’t return to the battlefield.

>>48974085
What about his ult (-7 : Any number of target players each draw twenty cards.) Does Aegis prevent its controller from drawing?

>>48974131
Oh, misread that.
It dies as a copy of Phytotitan, so the delayed trigger is primed.

Dimir Doppelganger isn't named Phytotian when the trigger resolves, but CARDNAME in rules text essentially shorthand for "this card".
Unless it explicitly says "named CARDNAME", which this doesn't... so whatever.

When Dimir Doppelganger returns to the battlefield it does so as a new game object.
It doesn't "remember" being a copy of Phytotitan because it never was one.

>>48974239
>Does Aegis prevent its controller from drawing?
>its controller

>Hexproof (You cannot be the target of spell or abilities your opponents control).
>your opponents control

How and why would you think it could prevent that?

>>48974282
Player 1 has Aegis and so has Hexproof. Player 2 has Jace, Memory Adept and ults (Any number of target players each draw 20 cards). Does Player 1 having hexproof (can't be the target of spells or abilities) prevent the ult? The wording is throwing me off.

>>48974239
>>48974282
Actually, looking back on this, your wording is extremely ambiguous.

If you control Jace and Aegis, you can target yourself to draw.

If your opponent controls Jace and you control Aegis, you cannot be targeted to draw.
Even if you're in some multiplayer game and they're want to diplomatically help you.

>>48974048
It does if the target. It'll stop Jace's 0, but not the Limit Break on a Jace, Architect of Thought for example.

>>48974078
They will. As soon as Player B dies to the SBA of having 10 poison counters, everything they own leaves with them; however, at the time the Exoskeleton left the game, it was controlled by someone else, who IS still in the game, so they CAN put the trigger on the stack, which they do.

>>48974131
As in, activate Doppelganger and then the thing it targeted comes back? If you somehow managed that (not sure how you would with Phytotitan), the ability fizzles because it has no legal target.

>>48974329
>you cannot be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control
>any number of target players

>>48974337
>If your opponent controls Jace and you control Aegis, you cannot be targeted to draw.
Ok thank you. So "You have hexproof" really protects you from everything from Sorceries, Instants, Planeswalkers and abilities.

>>48974329
Page hadn't refreshed yet.
c >>48974337

"Player 1" and "Player 2" is still kind of ambiguous.
>102.3. In a multiplayer game between teams, a player's teammates are the other players on his or her team, and the player's opponents are all players not on his or her team.
Other players who *aren't* opponents can target through your hexproof.

>>48974363
>>you cannot be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control
>>any number of target players
Ok, What about something like Ashiok's ult (Exile all cards from all opponenets hands and graveyards)

Again, page hadn't refresged yet.
>>48974365


It protects you from anything that "targets".
It does not protect from anything that skirts around that wording.
>What about something like Ashiok's ul
Doesn't say target, hexproof does nothing.

>702.11. Hexproof
>702.11a. Hexproof is a static ability.
>702.11b. "Hexproof" on a permanent means "This permanent can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control."
>702.11c. "Hexproof" on a player means "You can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control."
>702.11d. Multiple instances of hexproof on the same permanent or player are redundant.

>702.18. Shroud
>702.18a. Shroud is a static ability. "Shroud" means "This permanent or player can't be the target of spells or abilities."
>702.18b. Multiple instances of shroud on the same permanent or player are redundant.

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>>48974363
Thank you for the reply. But doesn't the reminder text in pic related say otherwise?

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>>48974579

>>48974396
Some keywords (Support, Equip, Provoke, Modular, Haunt, Fortify, Reinforce, Scavenge, and Awaken; I may be missing one or two), as well as Auras (and only when they're cast as spells!) target without necessarily explicitly saying the word "TARGET" on the card; for the keywords, that's because it's baked into their rules text in the CR, and ditto for Aura spells.

Literally anything else will say 'target' as clear as day if it targets. If it's not a keyword, and it's not an Aura spell, it HAS to say Target (and most keywords don't target inherently, and most that do will say that in the reminder text to help you out)

>>48974579
Well fuck me, it would help if I read the cards! For some reason I was thinking Theft stole the equipment AND attached to it.

Hey look, a good case for "RTFC" and "everyone makes mistakes". Anyway yeah- let's pretend I was answering if you stole the equipment, then attached it. With this scenario, they leave the game and their equipment leaves with them; they would be the player to control the trigger, but they no longer exist, so no trigger.

In EDH, if I block someone's general with a creature equipped with Godsend, understandably they can choose for their general to go to a different zone, but are they allowed to actually cast their general anymore?

>>48977756
Does their general share a name with a card in Exile that was put there by Godsend?

Non-socratic answer: No.

>>48977780
Rather, "no" to my Socratic retort, "yes" to your actual question. Sorry, I worded that poorly.

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Is there some sort of guideline for what kinds of playmats/sleeves are allowed? I have these new sleeves (pic related) that my judge has allowed at FNM level stuff with the more lenient REL, but he has told me that at a higher REL, like a PPTQ or a SCG IQ those would not be allowed. what is the text on this?

>>48978390
There's not really text to cover playmats, but basically we use the same logic as alters: If it's not offensive, disruptive, and doesn't contain what we would consider substantial strategic advice. What the mark for "offensive or disruptive" is varies from judge to judge; I'm a little on the fence about those sleeves, but I'd PROBABLY allow them unless they were actually causing issues. Other judges might not bat an eye, and others might just flat out say "Nah, that's softcore lewds".

Your best bet is to just go with a dark, solid color, non-gloss sleeve, in my opinion.

Where can one buy Chinese fake MTG cards??

>>48979110
Wrong thread, this is for rules and tournament organization questions.

I think Modern General might be able to answer that?
If not, they could certainly direct you to the correct thread.

>>48978522
Is this the Rules Manager's tumblr?
>http://tabakrules.tumblr.com/

Also, do you have a cube?
What's in it?

>>48980145
Sorta. Tabak was the rules manager for a good while, but he's stepped down; an old mentor of mine named Eli Shiffrin has taken over, though Tabak still helps with rules stuff.

I don't have a cube, largely because the two things I am worst at in Magic are 'building decks' and 'drafting'. I don't dislike Cube by any means, but I don't really think I could come up with an interesting one, so I haven't put any energy into it.

And with that, good night.

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If I pull 3 of these and name "Zombie" on 2 of them I can spend BB to get 2 tokens each time one of the tokens die, right?

>>48981227
>If I pull 3 of these and name "Zombie" on 2 of them
Wouldn't the 3rd Conspiracy be a source of zombie tokens?
Not that it even works.

>yes you can
c >>48981091 & >>48981265

>>48981292
Yeah you can't, i just realized it. (deleting my post to prevent confusion)
Even if you can, it's still mighty inconvenient to do so.

>>48981031
Tokens aren't cards.

Edh game. Opponent plays Return to Dust during his main phase targetting my Pyromancer's Goggles. In response I cast Wild Ricochet with PG mana targetting Return to Dust. How many artifacts or enchantments can I exile? Or how should I target Wild Ricochet's copy in order to exile the most enchantments or artifacts?

>>48981580
Not a judge, but I believe six.
Ricochet doesn't let you cast those copies, it just puts them straight on the stack. Since Return to dust only cares if you cast it during your main phase, and you didn't cast it at all, you should kill two things per return to dust copy (two, from two Ricochets), and two things from the original return to dust (which you redirect the targets of twice)

From gatherer: "When Wild Ricochet resolves, it creates a copy of a spell. The copy is created on the stack, so it’s not “cast.”"

Again, not a judge though.

>>48981580

3 or 4, it's up to your opponent.

Return to Dust can be given one or two targets regardless of when it was cast.

You can freely reassign both targets, but you *don't* control the spell so it's fairly pointless.
The original Return to Dust was cast by it's controller during it's controller's main phase, so the "if" part happens.
Trouble is, the "if" part is immediately followed by "may" and the controller (read: your opponent) choose that as it resolves.

You *do* control (and own) the copies, but again: second target is pointless.
You have to cast the spell during your main phase to get past that if.
It's not your main phase, and copying isn't casting, so the copies can't get passed the "if".

With two Wild Ricochets you can reassign targets twice (redundant) and get two copies.
Each copy exiles one target, and the original exiles one target if your opponent is uncooperative.

You can expect to exile 3 targets.
You can sometimes get 4 targets through multiplayer diplomacy shenanigans.
(Make sure the original's second target is something both you and Return to Dust's controller dislike)

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If I draft a Spire Phantasm can I ask the next player to help me guess, either if we're friends or as a political thing?
It isn't written anywhere that I can simply ask "What did you pick?" before guessing, but maybe it breaks the spirit of the card.
It would be cool to start getting political even before the game in a set such as Cospiracy.

I cast a Kessig Prowler with a Vildin-Pack Alpha on the field, does the Prowler flip?

I'm sorry, but i don't think you can. accordiing to the MTR section 7.7;
>....Players are not permitted to reveal hidden information of any kind to other participants in the draft
regarding their own picks or what they want others to pick. (Exception: This does not apply to double-faced cards,
both faces of which may be revealed at any time during a draft.)

However, I'm not a judge, so best to wait for gA, and/or ask what your tournament organizer thinks.

If you're playing at home, knock yourself out however.

>>48983143
Forgot to quote
>>48983988

>>48983710
Yes it does.
Alpha only cares whether Prowler is a werewolf ,not whether its also human or has the "I only transform at night"-ability, so you transform prowler.

GOOD MORNING, KIDS

>>48981031
You can't name "Zombie". "Zombie" is not the name of a card.

Now, if you draft two Assemble the Rank and Vile (love that name) and note the same card name for both, you can indeed pay BB upon the death of the named creature to get two zombies, because you're paying B for each of two triggers. You could also just pay B for one, of not pay anything for zero.

>>48981580
Two. You copied his spell as it exists, which has two targets. You can re-aim his original as you like, and both your copies have two targets as well. So, Wild Ricochet is cast, triggering Goggles, so you get a copy. Wild Copychet resolves, creating a copy of Return to Dust (and permitting you to change the targets if you want, though that's largely pointless here); pick your targets. Copy resolves. Original Ricochet resolves, making a copy of Return to Dust (and changing the targets of the original); aim those at 4 different things, if you like.

>>48983143
Players aren't allowed to reveal hidden information during the draft. Normally you can reveal (or lie about!) hidden information until you're blue in the face during a game, but specifically during a draft it's disallowed. If you and your group want to allow it during Conspiracy drafts, go for it though.

>>48983710
No, but it does transform! A Werewolf entered the battlefield under your control, which triggers Alpha.

May I ask why you think it might NOT transform, to clear up the root of potential other misunderstandings?

>>48984391
>Two
Not the original anon from the return to dust question, but did you mean six? You sounded like you're describing six.

>>48984391
>>48983710
I assumed the "pay mana to transform" ability somehow canceled out Alphas "flip for free" ability, and could find nothing to say otherwise.

>>48984510
Yeah, I retyped it a couple times and meant to say "you'll get 2 copies of Return to Dust" and didn't axe that part.

Mornings, man.

>>48984518
Well, all the other Werewolves have a way to transform too, it's just that the old ones transformed via a trigger rather than an activated ability. It doesn't say "whenever a Werewolf without an activated ability enters", it just says "Werewolf".

>>48984391
>You copied his spell as it exists, which has two targets.
I don't follow why that matters.
>9/25/2006 Regardless of when Return to Dust is cast, its controller may choose one target or two targets. It can always be cast even if there’s only one legal target. If it’s cast at a time other than its controller’s main phase and a second target is chosen, nothing will happen to that target.

>>48984651
Ah, fuck me, I was misremembering the wording again. My bad, kids.

You'll copy it as it exists, meaning 1 or 2 targets depending on how they chose it. Your copies will only exile 1 thing (even if they have 2 targets), so you max out at 4.

I think I should eat breakfast BEFORE I answer questions in the future. Mea culpa.

1. If my opponent misses the exile trigger of Bridge from Below and it gets missed for age to the point where the game can't be wound back, would he get a game loss?
2. I crack a fetch and tell my opponent I'm Thoughtseizing them. Before I've fetched they put their hand down and I see they're playing Burn. I then choose to get a basic rather than a shock. Have I broken a rule or am I just an asshole?

>>48985248
>1. If my opponent misses the exile trigger of Bridge from Below and it gets missed for age to the point where the game can't be wound back, would he get a game loss?
Severity of penalties varies by the venue. I think missed triggers usually start at warning?
Also, you'd get a Failure to Maintain Game State.
>2. I crack a fetch and tell my opponent I'm Thoughtseizing them.
At this point you are offering a shortcut, you have to commit to it up to and until your opponent interrupts it.
They aren't interrupting it at all, so you have to do the whole thing as you said you would.

>venue
Hmm, still not happy with my word choice.
Can't find a good way to reword it though.

The type/scale/level/whatever of the tournament.

>>48985338
I meant that I only said I'll crack a fetch and dropped a Thoughtseize onto the table before picking up my library. I never said what I was fetching, so my opponent has just given free information right?

Also does it not matter that Bridge is my opponent's trigger?

>>48985248
1) Nope. Missed Trigger is only a Game Loss if they get multiple within one day of an event and it gets upgraded. We also never rewind for Missed Triggers- if they're caught in a reasonable timeframe, the opponent can choose to just put it on the stack right then and there. If it's not caught until too late, we just assess the Warning (if necessary for a Generally Detrimental trigger) and move on.

2) Well, if you just said "Crack this fetch, Thoughtseize you" and were going to find a shock, but they just showed their hand before you found your land, I'd say you MIGHT be an asshole, but you've broken no rules. They didn't have to show you their hand until you had found your land, they chose to do so. I wouldn't penalize you for finding the basic Swamp there, but I'd not be impressed. This is why I suggest people be as clear as possible at all times, especially with shortcuts; just say "Crack this to find a Blood Crypt, it comes in tapped, Thoghtseize you, pass". It's kind of a grey area.

3) This tea is good.

>>48985374
You are not responsible for your opponent's triggers, but you are free to point them out. If your opponent misses their Bridge trigger and you notice it, you can call a Judge and have the trigger put on the stack.

>>48985363
You're looking for "REL".

And no, you never get a FTGMS for allowing your opponent to miss a trigger.

>>48985374
>Also does it not matter that Bridge is my opponent's trigger?
Your opponent will get a penalty too. As bad or worse than yours.
But you letting them miss the trigger is you failing to maintain the game state.

>I never said what I was fetching
Missed that, sorry.
A shortcut is a list of choices. The list has to be continuous. Yours was not, so you were weren't actually taking a shortcut.
Which is to say, you weren't allowed to prompt for Thoughtseize yet, and you were tricking them into revealing information.

>3.11 Hidden Information
>Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them.

[Cheating - Hidden Information Violations] have to be *intentional*, so if the judge finds it to be accidental (which is sounds like it is) you would get off with a lighter penalty.
Not sure which one though, guess we're both waiting for gA to return to the thread.

>>48985589
>Your opponent will get a penalty too. As bad or worse than yours.
>But you letting them miss the trigger is you failing to maintain the game state.

That is completely wrong. You do not ever get penalized for allowing your opponent to miss a trigger. It's been some years since that was the case.

>>48985571
To expand on the first half of this 100% correct post:

REL stands for Rules Enforcement Level, of which there are three.

Regular REL is the level the vast majority of sanctioned Magic is played at. FNM, Game Day, prereleases, random weekly events at your shop, and even GPTs now. These are very laid back, with a heavy emphasis on fun, learning, and community over strict punishment. The document that governs this is Judging At Regular, or the JAR, a two page document meant to help stores that might not HAVE a judge be able to fix common problems. Most problems fall into simple fixes of "correct if possible, wag finger, remind to be careful", but a few are Very Serious Things and punishable by DQ. But that's basically it- either you get DQed, or you get cautioned. There's no formal Warnings or Game Losses or Match Losses.

Competitive and Professional REL are the Big Leagues, which are enforced by the IPG (Infraction Procedure Guide), which DOES have a myriad of penalties depending on the infraction.

>>48985589
>get a penalty too
Not quite. Your opponent will get a Warning for Missed Trigger (because that trigger is generally detrimental), but you will get no penalty of any kind. You're NEVER penalized for your opponent's missed trigger.

I wouldn't say he was tricking anyone into revealing information; a shortcut isn't "I'm going to do this thing in the middle of another action", he was saying "I'm going to crack a fetch for a land to Thoughtseize". I agree that he should have said what he was fetching to alleviate any possible problems, but I also disagree that he was 'tricking' anyone.

>>48985641
>Game Losses
You CAN give someone a GL at Regular, either if they've repeatedly fucked something up after multiple requests to be careful (but it doesn't warrant a DQ) or if they manage to FUBAR a gamestate so hard it's unrecoverable.

These things almost never come up.

>>48985661
True, but it's almost a corner case at Regular. 99% of all problems are fixed with "caution, fix if possible, move on", maybe .5% end in a DQ, and then maybe .4% are Game Loss-able. The other .1% is "fuck it, there's no precedent for this, I'm going to deviate like hell"

Can I do the following?

>bring notes into a game to reference
>write down notes during a game
>bring those notes into the next game

That white card that stops your opponent from casting noncreature spells with CMC X would go well with a list of CMC of my opponent's cards. I take notes during game 1, bring them into game 2. Allowed?

>>48985892

PS: The card is Sanctum Prelate.

>>48985892
Between games of a match, you may refer to notes made prior to that match; these notes cannot be excessive (there's no hard definition on 'excessive' so people can't skirt it, it's just "use common sense/judgement").

DURING a match, you can only refer to notes made within said match. When you sit down for your match, your notes sheet must be blank, and you cannot refer to any notes you made prior to the match.

So, you can write down cards you see your opponent play in Game 1, so you know what number to call with Sanctum Prelate, but if you wanted to make notes for that matchup PRIOR to that match, you could only consult them between games.

I have Archangel of Thune and a 3/3 in play. I attack with both and my opponent blocks my 3/3 with his own 3/3. Does it live as a 4/4 with 3 damage or does it die? Would anything change if my opponent's 3/3 had first strike?

>>48986272
It dies in both cases. Your Archangel domes for 3 and gains you 3 life at the same time your 3/3 (and your opponent's!) hit each other for 3. State-based actions see those two creatures have lethal damage on them, and kill them. Then your Archangel's trigger goes on the stack, eventually resolves, and puts a counter on Archangel.

>>48985946

How often is this enforced? I often see people bring into Game 2 the life counter from Game 1.

>>48986341
Well, considering "notes you made earlier in this match are allowed in later games"...

You can take notes during game 1, and consult those notes during game 2. That's fine. Unless you mean people bringing the life counter from ROUND 1 into ROUND 2; usually we just kinda gloss over that because all that's gonna be written on the lifepad most of the time is the life totals and maybe a few cards written down for a Thoughtseize effect, and what cards your previous opponent had have basically no bearing on the current game. If we think that those notes are intrusive, we'll just politely ask the player to flip to a new page.

>>48986382

oh, sorry. I misread you as saying notes taken during G1 can't be brought into G2

If a FLGS is 18+ or 19+ or 21+ (depending where you live), you can't hold sanctioned events, right? What's stopping it, though? My FLGS is considering making it adults only and allowing alcohol on the premises and the owner said Wizards would never know.

>>48986477
Correct; one of the requirements for WPN status is that the venue needs to be open to the general public. If you put an age restriction, then it's not open to the general public.

>What's stopping it?
The rules? When you sign up to run WPN sanctioned events, you agree to abide by their rules for same. It'd be like saying 'what's stopping us from running our PPTQ as Extended?' or "What's stopping us from filling out 30 DCI numbers each to get the store to Advanced?".

>Wizards would never know
Until someone tells them. Or your rep googles your store and finds out that it's adults-only. If they find out that you're violating WPN rules, they might give you a warning and take away your sanctioning on the second offense; if they find out you've been knowingly and flagrantly violating WPN rules and lying to them about it, they'll blacklist you so fast your head will spin.

There are two entities I do not ever fuck with, and those are WPN and the IRS.

At the end of my opponent's turn Warping Wurm is phased out.
My turn begins, and Warping Wurm phases in, putting his trigger on the stack. In response, my opponent wishes to Bolt it. Can they? You can't cast spells before upkeep, right?

If they can, can I then, say, cast Archangel Avacyn and sacrifice something to have her flip in the upkeep?

Do you know of any "famous" LGS? I'm visiting the US of A for the first time (I live in Niagara Falls in Canada) and I'm visiting New York, then Texas, then heading home. By "famous" I mean LGS with 100s of attendees for FNM or maybe they're really well known for friendly staff or what-have-you?

>>48986583
>Can they?
Yes, they can bolt it in response to the trigger.

>You can't cast spells before upkeep, right?
Also correct.

The reason they can bolt in response to the trigger is that the trigger doesn't go on the stack during your Untap step, because then the game would never be able to move on; objects on the stack can't resolve until everyone passes priority, and nobody has priority in the untap step. So anything that triggers during the untap step just waits patiently until the upkeep, at which point SBAs get checked, then triggers go onto the stack, then players get priority. So he can blast your Wurm in response to the trigger, because you have to give him priority for that trigger to resolve.

You can't make Avacyn transform inside an upkeep step you're already in, because by the time you have priority to take any actions it's past the "beginning of the upkeep" where her delayed trigger would be waiting. Best you can do is pop something at the end of someone's turn so she transforms during the very next upkeep, or do it during Upkeep 1 of a turn with two upkeeps thanks to Paradox Haze.

>>48986656
Well, I'm sure the home locations for the big stores like Starcity and CFB would count, but those are nowhere near where you're going. I don't know of any 'famous' stores in New York, because I don't know much about the east coast. As far as Texas... nothing rings a bell, I'm afraid.

>>48985777
>The other .1% is "fuck it, there's no precedent for this, I'm going to deviate like hell"
So is this the point where you say "I think it works like this?"

>>48987357
Pretty much. That's the point where the 2 page document doesn't cover what you should do, and neither does past experience, so you just kinda... make it up as you go.

Sometimes you dip into "fuck it, I'm King Rules up in this bitch, we're doing it my way!" at Competitive events too, but it is also exceedingly rare there.

Favourite cookie and soda?

>>48988249
Probably Snickerdoodles, although Oreos aren't bad either.

I actually gave up soda a little over 2 years ago.

>>48984756
>>48984651
>>48984534
>>48984510
>>48984391

I'm the anon from the Wild Ricochet/Return to Dust question. We reached the same conclusion during the game but when you make copies of copies it gets confusing. Thanks everyone for answering.

Does a Sakashima copying Lazav steal his name and legend rule one of them when it copies a creature that hit the graveyard or does he keep his own name?

>>48984756
Not >>48981580/>>48988545, but
>so you max out at 4.
reads ambiguously.

Is >>48981989 correct in saying that your opponent can force it to 3?

>>48988557
So, when you copy a card you copy all the... well, copiable things about it. That includes name.

Some copy effects will say to ignore a specific thing, like how Lazav and Sakashima don't copy names. Sakashima will pick up Lazav's ability (since it's a copy of that in every way but name), but you basically sub in "Sakashima the Imposter" where Lazav's ability refers to Lazav.

I keep running into questions for my brion stoutarm deck. I'm so glad you do these threads, thank you!

Say I have Malignus (Or Serra Avatar or something equally big) out, and I cast Chandra's Ignition on it, making it deal a big amount of damage to all creatures and opponents.

Can I still use Brion to throw that same creature at an enemy as a reaction? I know it can't on cast because that'd make the spell fizzle (since it says TARGET creature), but is it possible to react between the cast and the damage assignment or something?

>>48988600
Sorry, my bad.

They can "force" it to 3 if they cast it with one target in the first place (since it's "up to one other" target, they can cast it with only one target even during their main phase), but they can't say "Okay well it's only got one target" after you Ricochet. If they cast it with one target, then you can hit 3 targets total (1 from redirecting theirs, 1 each from your 2 copies). If they cast it with 2 targets, you can hit 4 (2 from redirecting theirs, 1 more from each of your 2 copies)

>>48988644
Happy to help!

I don't know what you mean by 'as a reaction'. Your last chance to respond to a spell or ability is just before it resolves. If you toss your big dude with Brion in response to your Ignition, Ignition will fizzle because it has no target. If you wait for Ignition to resolve, then it'll nuke the board and Brion will be dead (unless you had some way of keeping him alive). Even if you do keep him alive, you're just tossing the creature after Ignition resolves; you can't take actions in the middle of a spell or ability resolving unless something explicitly gives you permission (like Epic Experiment telling you to cast spells during its own resolution)

Have to run into town for a bit, back in about an hour

>>48988703
Ah ok, thanks. I guess I was confused since with combat the actual assignment of damage is a separate step, but I guess that's not the case anywhere else.

>>48988635
That's what I thought, thanks.

>>48988703
>608.2b. If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. Illegal targets, if any, won't be affected by parts of a resolving spell's effect for which they're illegal. Other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them. If the spell or ability creates any continuous effects that affect game rules (see rule 613.10), those effects don't apply to illegal targets. If part of the effect requires information about an illegal target, it fails to determine any such information. Any part of the effect that requires that information won't happen.
So by initially assigning two targets they are already making the choice to exile the second target? Then if they choose a second target at an irrelevant time are they (irrelevantly) making that choice?

Does Turn Aside counter spells with multiple targets (as long as one of them is one of my permanents)? For example, does it stop Rabid Bite?

Yes.

>>48988769
I guess you could use it to kill multiple Phantasmal Images if you somehow made them legal targets.

>>48989133
Yes, it just cares that the spell targets a permanent you control. It can target other objects too, but that's irrelevant to Turn Aside.

>>48989033
Not quite; the "up to one other target" lets them select a second target regardless of when they cast the spell. IF cast during their main phase, they have the option (the "you may" part) to exile that target. It's 100% legal to cast Return to Dust during your main phase, selecting two targets, and intending to only exile the first of those targets.

>>48989133
As long as it targets a permanent you control, it's a legal target for Turn Aside. It doesn't have to ONLY target permanents you control, so long as the answer to "does this spell target a permanent I control" is "yes".

>>48991020
>It's 100% legal to cast Return to Dust during your main phase, selecting two targets, and intending to only exile the first of those targets.

>>48988703
>They can "force" it to 3 if they cast it with one target in the first place
>If they cast it with 2 targets, you can hit 4

Contradiction!

>>48991144
How is this a contradiction?

Top part says they can "force" it to 3 even if they cast it with two targets initially
Bottom part says they cannot

>>48991511
I think you're misunderstanding the bottom. It's not saying that you cannot hit 3. It's saying that you can hit 4. The controller of the original Return to Dust could choose to go ahead with the "may" half of the spell after seeing the new targets.

I think you're misunderstanding the bottom. It's not saying that the controller of the original Return to Dust could choose to go ahead with the "may" half of the spell after seeing the new targets.
It's saying that the opponent could only control whether you hit 3 or 4 at the time when they initially chose their targets.
>The controller of the original Return to Dust could choose to go ahead with the "may" half of the spell after seeing the new targets.
I agree. That's roughly the point I'm trying to argue.

>>48991144
Ah, right- fuck. I goofed again! You can select new targets for the original, but upon resolution it's still THEIR spell. THEY can choose not to exile the second target, so they can force it to 3. I was thinking of it in the context of gaining control of the spell. My mistake.

>>48991781
Ah, now I see why you called it a contradiction. The bottom implies that the 4 are guaranteed to be exiled.

>>48991928
Yeah, I was still thinking of Ricochet as a Commandeer for some reason. Mea maxima culpa.

So there's a howling mine in play, and opponent dredges 6 from his first draw. Before the second draw, can he sacrifice a Neonate to bin a Gravetroll, then dredge the Gravetroll for his second draw?

Tldr does the mine's additional draw go on the stack, or do you draw two without being able to activate things inbetween?

>>48992564
Mine's additional draw comes in the form of a trigger that goes on the stack after the turn-based action of 'draw a card' during the Draw Step. It is 100% legal for your opponent to pop his Neonate to discard another Dredge card in response to that trigger, so that he can Dredge off that draw too.

>>48992621
Thank you!!

That's what we figured, as with something like MODO a little window for Mine would pop up to which you can respond to.

Player A casts Divination
Player B casts 2 Notion Thiefs

How many cards dos Player B draw? Same if Player B instead cast 2 copies of Plagiarize targeting the same player.

>>48996160
2. Each Notion Thief's replacement effect wants to apply to the card draws; once you apply one of them, Player A is no longer drawing a card, so the other replacement effect can't apply.

Same with two Plagiarize. Once you apply the replacement effect from one of them, there's no longer a 'draw a card' event for the other to apply to, so it doesn't apply.

>>48996160
>120.2. Cards may only be drawn one at a time. If a player is instructed to draw multiple cards, that player performs that many individual card draws.

614.7. If a replacement effect would replace an event, but that event never happens, the replacement effect simply doesn't do anything.

Hey gA, I have various tezzeret the seeker related questions:

>can I use its -X ability to pick 0 and fish darksteel Citadel?
>if I have a sol ring on the field, can I use the +1 ability to tap the sol ring for 4 floating mana?

>>48996559
>can I use its -X ability to pick 0 and fish darksteel Citadel?
Yup. X can be zero and Darksteel Citadel has a CMC of zero.
>if I have a sol ring on the field, can I use the +1 ability to tap the sol ring for 4 floating mana?
Nope. Even if you could target the same Sol Ring twice (you can't), there are two separate reasons you wouldn't have an opportunity to tap it "between" untaps.

>>48996671
thanks man, I appreciate it.

>>48996559
>X is 0
Yes! Darksteel Citadel is an artifact with a CMC of 0. That works.

>Sol Ring
No dice. You can't target the same thing twice, and you couldn't activate Sol Ring partway through the ability even if you could/

>>48996720
Just to be clear: you could chose 27 for X and still grab a Darksteel Citadel. "X or less"

>>48996728
If a spell or ability has multiple targets and handles them differently during resolution, do you chose which target is which at cast or at resolution?
>ex; On my opponents turn, I cast Return to Dust with two targets. The intended "first" target whiffs it before RtD resolves. Can I exile the other target?

>>48996840
>601.2c. The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires.

I didn't quote the rest because it's not relevant here- you need to declare what things you're targeting, and which one goes to each instance of the word 'target'.

It's similar to how if you cast Agony Warp on two different targets, everyone will know which one is the -3/-0 target and which is the -0/-3 well before it resolves.

Anyway, tapping out for the night. More thread tomorrow.

bump in the night

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33KB, 550x462px

>>48934040
Here's a question, I believe the the answer is no. But would graffdigger's cage stop dredge?

>>49001017
It would not. Dredge is "As long as you have at least N cards in your library, if you would draw a card, you may instead put N cards from the top of your library into your graveyard and return this card from your graveyard to your hand", where N is whatever number on the Dredge. It involves cards going from your library to your graveyard, followed by a card going from your graveyard to your hand. There's no creature cards trying to enter the battlefield from graveyard or libraries, nor are there any cards attempting to be cast from graveyards or libraries.

>>49001138
Thank you, I was fairly sure that's how it would work. I'm just wanted a second opinion

>>49001259
Hey, it never hurts to double check. I've had questions at GPs where my mental process was "I am 99% sure this works the way I think it does, but I want to double check".

You can put ancestral visions onto Isocron Scepter, correct?

>>49002112
You can't, but not for the reason you're worried about.

It's a sorcery.

>>49002112
>>49002138
For comparison, you could put EVERMIND on a Scepter (since it's an instant with CMC of 0). Activating the Scepter creates a copy of Evermind in exile, and then gives you permission to cast the copy without paying the mana cost. That's an alternate cost that you can pay, so it's legal to do so with your {NULL} cost spell, exactly the same as why you can Cascade into a Living End; you can't cast those spells normally because you can't pay a cost that doesn't exist, but you can do it via the alternate cost of "Free"

Can i use spells and abilities that say "target attacking or blocking creature" after the combat damage is dealt, but before the second main phase begins?

>>49004756
Yes! You get priority during the Combat Damage step, once damage is dealt. You also get priority in the End of Combat Step, and it's not until that step ENDS that creatures stop being 'attacking' or 'blocking'.

This is why you can use Maze of Ith as pseudo-vigilance by using it on your own creatures after they've dealt damage.

Do all permanent die if they go to grave from battlefield or only creatures?

>>49004918
>700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."

>>49004918
"Dies" technically is just shorthand for "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield", but for flavor reasons you mostly only see it in regards to creatures.