Could an average terran marine defeat an average space marine?

>>48932462
Not even close, bb.

Weren't the Terran marines designed to basically be cannon fodder and were chosen because they were criminals? Seems they can't really compete to essentially immortal god soldiers bred and genetically engineered for war in the emporers service.

>>48932462
One on one? No, the Astartes is going to have a lot more to work with than the Terran Marine.

Army on Army? The Astartes will have some serious issues. Terrans will win.

>>48932462
Terran marines are pretty much imperial guards with better equipment

>>48932462
Terran marines are brainwashed cannon fodders.
So they are basically guardsmen with ATSKNF rule.

>>48932462
Since you seem at ease with videogames:
We had numerous threads establishing that a 40k SM is superior in most ways to a Halo spartan. Compare Master Chief an the average Starcraft marine.

Yes. The retards don't even wear helmets. They will die instantly to any massed firepower.

Also a Terran marine is 100% accurate with his rifle while a Space Marine misses 33% of the time even at point blank range with his bolter. His armor is penetrated by plasma weapons and they kill him instantly while a terran marine can take several hits from one.

>>48934017
>one system is represented by dice rols, one by damage and hp
>this changes the fluff
HURR

>>48932544
Aren't 40k SMs also criminals and other such "urban youths" before they get all their enhancents?

>>48934365
>also criminals and other such "urban youths" before they get all their enhancents?

100% dependent on the Chapter in question and how they do things.

>>48932462
Nah. SC canon Terran Marines are Kasrkins who look like Astartes. Astartes are Canon Sues who were cooler back when beakies were the norm.

>>48934017
Helmets are optional when you have a bulletproof face.

Also,
>rules of two radically different systems on two completely different media accurately represent fluff
nigga u dumb

>>48934078
>i believe the propaganda

40k fluff is 50% lies, 45% inconsistencies and paradoxes, and 5% someone mashing at a keyboard.

Considering Terran Marines are pretty damn mooky in setting (Zerglings are about the only guys lower on the totem pole) and are mostly just violent criminals I'd lean not.

They are more or less Imperial Guard in power armour and bolters with some fancy morale stuff due to the resoc.

So a step down from the SOB (Which would be a closer fight but likely go in the SOB direction due to superior training and faith powers)

>40k fluff

Fused ribs cause your lungs to not function

Space Marine > 99% of other sci-fi/superhero dudes. We've established that a million times already.

40k is super OP.

>>48932462
Depends upon whether or not the spess muhreen has a nametag, who's writing for him, and how much spess-magic plot armor he's pandering to his fanbase with.

>>48934731
>40k is super 12yr old calvin-ball

>>48934759

It truly is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL-jkxc6GMQ

>>48934404
Then there is no point in arguing about it at all, isn't it?

>>48932462
>>48934442
Terran Marine standard weapon is a fully automatic rail gun that manufactures it;s own rounds.

>>48934501
Interlocking, not fused.

>>48934365
>>48932544
Original Rogue Trader fluff for 40k Marines is basically the Terran Marine fluff, bionics, power armor etc but not the genetically engineered transhumans they are in modern fluff.

I dunno, when people claim Blizzard ripped off Games Workshop's IP... ehh, it has some merit from what I've seen, and it's the reason GW has been changing fluff and names to be less generic to better protect the current IP.

>>48932462
unserious 40k fluff >>>>>>>>>> starcraft >>>>>>>>>>>>> serious 40k fluff>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OP's dick

>>48935863
It is specifically a railgun? Railguns are S10 AP1 weapons. Also it turns out when I googled it that the Terran Marine's C-14 rifle fires 30 rounds per second. It's never stated but the bolter fires at an audible rate in the official fluff so we know it must fire at less than 16 rounds per second.


Let me stat that.
Boltgun:S4 AP5 rapid fire (2 rounds).
C-14: S10 AP 1 I'd say Assault 4 or Assault 5 weapon since it's at least twice as fast

>>48935863
>Terran Marine standard weapon is a fully automatic rail gun that manufactures it;s own rounds.

Yes and the Space Marines standard weapon is a handheld full-auto RPG launcher. Both settings have some pretty advanced tech, but without any hard details or comparisons there's no real way to determine which one is more advanced save for extrapolating from what little information we have.

Andy Chambers the lead writer for Starcraft said in an Interview that a single 40K Space Marine chapter would conquer the Starcraft sector.

End this debate now.

>>48935863
And a bolter is a automated rapid fire missile launcher.

One is merely the front line fodder of the shittiest outposts of humanity, the other are genetically modified super soldiers with hundreds of years of experience and training.

The terran is outclassed everyday, and we aren't even talking the full equipment differences.

>>48936009
/thread/

>>48936018
Yeah but they've been trained to act like religious morons for 200 years, they don't even know how their own guns work, and just walk into battle without even using tactics or wearing helmets so there's basically not even a difference. Anybody who says the 40k marines could conquer anything other than their nearest battle brothers ass is pandering.

>>48936009
Then he is more retarded than I thought, 1000 people can't conquer billions even if they're completely superior in every way. Something is going to go wrong at some point and then they're dead.

>>48936009
>>48936029
But that's stupid. Even a spess mehren would get fucked up by that much massed firepower. Protoss in particular would wipe the floor with them, due to their fully functioning plasma weapons that don't explode in your face.

>>48936009
Unless Matt Ward's doing the writing & the Ultramarines are sent, I doubt that'd work.

>>48932462
No.

But Terran technology and having psychics that don't have to worry about Chaos would.

Terrans have true FTL and devices that safely shit down all psychic power, meaning Terrans can easily make large Chaos-free zones. The Imperium idealogically can't steal Terran tech.

1 on 1, SM wins. Starcraft VS 40k, Starcraft wins.

>>48936087
>>48936098
>>48936115
Space Marines vs. The Christian God (as featured in the Bible). Who would win?
Knowing Spess Mehreen fanboys and 40k fans in general I'm sure this would be a popular thread with lots of angry arguments detailing why the Space Marines have at least a pretty good chance

>>48935987

The rail gun you're referring to is tank-mounted Tau weaponry. This does not equate in any sense to the terrible rail gun the Terran marines use.

On the other hand, the bolter almost literally throws an armor-piercing, dual-stage hi-ex grenade.

>>48936098
>>48936087
Surgical strikes and hit and run tactics. Shock and awe. The way space marines always fought.

Marines are not fighting billions head on. Don't be silly. They will cut off the heads and then mop out the bodies.

>>48936018
There are some pieces of Terran equipment that might give Space Marines some trouble. Siege Tanks, Hellbats, and Vikings could be difficult for Marines to fight without support. The Terrans have a lot of mobility and versatility which might make it more difficult for the Space Marine's to fulfill their usual role of precision strike force or heavy shock troops.

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>>48935893
Because both ripped off the same source, which is Starship Troopers. Metzen infused his boner for cowboys and the American Civil War into Starcraft, and Priestely infused his boner for the Holy Roman Empire and Paradise Lost into 40k.

>>48936198
And then they will randomly get fucked by their chaos based warp drive OR get shot from the sky by a fleet of battlecruisers because they were 1,000 vs a sector of tens of billions of people.

It's just not going to happen even if you're fearsome 1v1 or 1v10 or 1v100.

>>48936203
Don't forget that Terran tech is built for nomadism.

Entire cities are mobile (like the Science Vessels), Terrans just strip worlds and move on unless they establish it as a military outpost or capital.

>>48936208
>Metzen infused his boner for cowboys and the American Civil War into Starcraft
God I wish the Terrans were still Space Rednecks. That was such an interesting idea.

>>48932462
No

>>48936178
>something in Revelations literally sent all the stars flying towards Earth
>Angels shielded it

>>48936221
Here is the interview.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzJ-1wBJ4wM

43:00 (Space Marine vs Terran Marine)
45:35 (How many Space Marines will it take to conquer the StarCraft sector)

File: image.jpg (153KB, 500x666px) Image search: [Google]

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>>48936254
Yeah.

Still, Shadowrun Terrans isn't as big of a step down as it could have been.

>>48936208
it amazes me how many people forget about heinlein especially after the starship troopers movie. I know his writing had issues, but he had some really fun ideas.

>>48936276
Not Metzen, disregarded.

Then again, Metzen would orobably say "Only the Space Wolves could, Chaos would be fucked, Tau join the Alliance (of space)."

>>48934791
MUH ROCKET LAWNCHAIR!!!

>>48936315
Andy is the lead writer, not Metzen.

Could a protoss zealot's blade puncture MK 7 spess muhren power armor?

>>48936371
no way to know for sure, most models of power armor, do have a power field which might work like a protoss shield or might work an entirely different way. The fluff is very inconsistent.

>>48936018

>One is merely the front line fodder of the shittiest outposts of humanity, the other are genetically modified super soldiers with hundreds of years of experience and training.

So? New to the thread, but that doesn't mean much if you're talking a serious technological difference.

If we go to another setting, Hyperion, the front line militia soldiers of a far outpost of humanity have small arms that can shoot targets on a planet's moon. They have (handheld) weapons that can plow through half a kilometer of solid rock.

Yeah, they might be front line fodder from the back end of nowhere, but I'd bet on the Hyperion militia over Astartes any day.


Now, you get some serious issues translating either 40k or Starcraft into each other, but the mere fact that they're convict soldiers doesn't count for much.

>>48936276
See >>48936315
but even if he did say that it would be retarded because even if the 1,000 Space Marines were completely undefeated in ground combat they'd just get blown into debris in space, bombed from orbit, worn down one by one using specialized counter tactics over time, die in unlucky accidents, die due to their own strategies in insertion, etc. 1,000 people can't conquer a sector of space with tens of billions of people and anybody who says anything different just didn't think it through, it should be pretty damn obvious.

>>48936434
Actually, the 40K fluff says that a single marine chapter has resources to bring an entire sector to its knees. (Source CSM 6th ED dex).

>>48936345
Metzen can override anyone in any Blizzard IP. He's the Disney, the 70's Stan Lee.

>>48936450
Given how many worlds aren't as developed as the Space Marines, the amount of uninhabitable worlds & more, I wonder what that means.

>>48936484
He hasn't gave his opinion so all we have is Chamber who worked on both 40K and Starcraft.

>>48936450
Then that part is really, really retarded. I can claim an Ultramarine could beat Jesus and Superman and Matt Ward can write it but that would be a stupid piece of fluff too.

>>48936434
>just didn't think it through
Blizzard summed up in five words.

>>48936434
>they'd just get blown into debris in space

An SM fleet would shit on anything that SC has. There are few settings that can beat 40keks in space battles.

>>48936513
Metzen's opinion is always the same.

"The character I voice is awesome, make him the star" and "Needs more cowboy/civil war/mecha/wizards/vikings".

Metzen's take on 40k would ignore SM completely and just have Tau and Americanized Imperial Guard with some Tyranids as a throwaway enemy.

>>48936558
I think you're talking the Imperial Navy and not a Space Marines chapter so what's your point? The point he was making is a chapter can conquer an entire sector of space with billions of people. As far as I know they won't be bringing a flying church ship.

>>48936558
Yeah, but almost every setting has safe and reliable FTL, allowing them to orbitally bombard and run almost the entire Imperium.

>>48936576
>As far as I know they won't be bringing a flying church ship.

You do know that each chapter has its own fleet of ships?

>>48936538
Anon, I think you are also massively overrating the kind of defenses an average planet and sector has.
Not every sector is Ultramar, the Cadian Gate, etc, most are small, almost backwater places with a handful of settled hive and agri worlds that are NOT military bastions.
A fully mobilized chapter could literally hopscotch from planet to planet, and by the time an organized effort is underway, could have already crippled linchpin worlds.
No, they don't have the numbers to hold and garrison a planet, but it didn't say that, either. They could wreck the fuck out of it, tho. Huron is an example of a chapter taking and holding a sector.

>>48936604
I don't care if they have a fleet of anything that's not a capital ship. Do they have those gigantic flying church ships or not? Cause if not then it's a totally lopsided fight and they will die. On the other hand if they do then they probably win, although not because of their space marines but because of their capital ships and probably without ever even setting a foot on the ground.

>>48936658
Battle barges, anon, almost all chapters have at least 1, with fleet based chapters having fuckhuge station bases.
Even then, SM don't with space battles with guns, it's the vicious boarding parties to cripple ships that lead the way.

>>48936702
What's a battle barge. Explain why 10 battlecruisers can't shoot it down.

Depends on if the Terran Marines commander rushed stems and medivac

>>48936714
>10
How many battlecruisers are in a fleet, anon?
How many other ships are in a standard Terran fleet?
This isn't the time to spout off numbers based on the vidya game, pull numbers from lore.
Most chapters will have 1-4 battle barges,8+ cruisers, and 2 destroyers/escorts per cruiser.

>>48936774
It's probably impossible to say, but there are a lot of them. There will be more if necessary, since it's going to be a looong campaign for a small bunch to conquer the entire sector, although not an unlimited number of course.

It's a moot point anyway. If the Battle Barge is some 40k kilometers long monster ship with enormous specs and millions of people abroad then the space mariens are going to win. Although obviously not because they brought 1000 space dudes but because they brought real stuff. If they only had reasonable transports for the 1000 dudes, and those 1000 dudes, they would have obviously lost instead.

>>48936558

Wut? You don't read much sci-fi, do you?

>>48936864
>It's probably impossible to say
Then there is not point to this discussion.

>>48935987
The Terran C-14 is actually ridiculously weak for a magnetic acceleration weapon.

S3 AP4 Rapid Fire

>>48936977
Yeah unfortunately our argument about whether 1000 dudes could conquer billions and billions can no longer proceed with scientific exactitude but I guess we will find other projects to compensate

>>48936161
If Starcraft psychics don't have to worry about the Warp, then it's a given that the mechanics of their abilities are different enough to 40K's that no anti-psychic stuff from Starcraft would have any effect on 40K stuff.

>>48936864
You're aware that a Chapter has auxiliary forces and stuff, right?

Depending on the size of the Chapter, Marines can have from 50,000 to a few million auxiliaries serving under them.

>>48937009
A++ passive aggressiveness skills anon

And I'm not even being sarcastic

>>48937061
I honestly wasn't aware of that. I'm not big on 40k. But you can probably understand why I wouldn't be aware of that since everything that is mentioned is about the few Space Marines fighting on the surface and occasionally dying but ultimately being victorious. The other dudes don't seem to ever get mentioned, I guess unless you dig deep, even though reasonably most of anything the chapter ever does could be attributed to them if that is the case and that is the advantage they would bring to bear on the Koprulu sector.

Like if you're talking how WW2 went you're talking entire armies, huge formations of armor, fleets of ships and flights of airplanes. You're not talking a bunch of marines on Iwo Jima. You might talk about them but you would not attribute the entire outcome of the war to them. And that's a relatively primitive conflict on a small planet, bring in cruisers the size of small moons and a bunch of armored people does absolutely jack.

>>48937148
>You're not talking a bunch of marines on Iwo Jima

if the marines were able to do what SMs can do you sure as fuck would talk about them

>Laughing, Sica backhanded one of the hooded men with the ridged knuckles of his gauntlet, snapping his neck and throwing two hundred kilos of brutish soldier back into his comrades.

>One of the Isstvanian soldiers ran at him, shrieking and aflame, and pulled Temeter into an embrace. The captain let the flamer drop from his grip and ripped the man in two, tearing him apart effortlessly

>Vendatha pulled the haft-trigger, and his spear underslung Bolter cracked off a stream of rounds on full auto.
>Argal Tal saw it coming. The swords of red iron smashed the first three bolts aside, their power fields strong enough to detonate the shells as they streaked towards the Primarch's heart

>>48937148
>But you can probably understand why I wouldn't be aware of that since everything that is mentioned is about the few Space Marines fighting on the surface and occasionally dying but ultimately being victorious.

Oh, yeah, of course. Mehreens are he poster boys and they get the screentime. It's annoying, but in this case it's sort of appropriate, since Imperial citizens have the same impression.

The average Imperial manufactorum worker believes that ten Space Marines can take a planet. He doesn't know or even consider the possibility that they have entire legions of auxiliaries.

>>48932544
>The C-14 Impaler Gauss Rifle fires
8mm metal “spikes” at hypersonic speeds. The rounds
are designed to provide maximum penetration against
all armor types. To preserve both ammo usage and
minimize power requirements, the rifle uses a capacitor
system to fire in short, controlled bursts.


Terran Marine's has superior range and armor penetration as compared to the Astartes.

Astartes has a better training, probably decades more experience and more combat augments.

>>48937297
Yep and then they and the 100 miles around them became hotter than the core of a star and it was all irrelevant because somebody fired from orbit, truly amazing

>>48937309
That's actually pretty fair though.

>>48937413
>Yep and then they and the 100 miles around them became hotter than the core of a star and it was all irrelevant because somebody fired from orbit, truly amazing

To be fair this is an issue in any sci-fi setting where there is ground combat.

If you're fighting on the ground, it's assumed you either have space superiority, are tying up their orbital assets, or nobody wants to obliterate their own cities because being king of a cinder pile is no real victory.

>>48937464
Actually to fight an entire sector a chapters fleet would probably target the capital planet (Terra?) Cripple the leadership of civilians and the military infrastructure. They way the would do this? DEEP STRIKING! STHEL RHANE!
Seriously though Space Marines would have no problem with fighting without orbital security.

>>48937535
>Seriously though Space Marines would have no problem with fighting without orbital security.
Why. What if people actually fire at them from orbit and air for that matter.

>>48937535
Depends on their opponents. It works in 40k, it might not work in more "grounded," high-end sci fi where you can have a single fighter level the Space Marines and the surrounding area with one missile, that moves twice as fast as conventional bullets, from km away.

What about the entire Imperial Guard vs Terra Starcraft?

Somehow i always pictured the IG as a magnitude more powerful than the SMs since they are the backbone of the empire

File: Imperial_guard_102.jpg (88KB, 400x398px) Image search: [Google]

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>>48937405
>Terran Marine's has superior range and armor penetration
>Be a lot weaker in stats than Elite Stormtroopers
>Dies to flashlight

>>48937627
That's not high end sci-fi. That's modern technology if you just use all of it. Hypersonic missile, beyond line of sight combat, nuclear warhead. If you think that's futuristic then 40k has just dulled your vision of the future.

>>48937674
I never said it was necessarily high-end sci-fi, just that more grounded sci-fi would likely use more conventional methods of warfare like that.

I worded it poorly.

>>48936558
There are many, but SC is not one of them.

>>48936864
Actual full-strength marine chapter is about 1100 marines when you count the ones that fall outside standard codex assignments (chaplains, etc).

Their ships, and a number of their vehicles/aircraft are operated by serfs, of which there are probably a dozen or two per marine, if not more.

'Auxiliaries' drawn from another Imperial faction (guard, pdf, inquisition, rogue traders, etc) should not be counted towards a Chapter's assets.

>>48937612
Because they would be fighting on enemy soil. As such, the enemy would be reluctant to fire upon his own cities\people.

Think of it like this: you would not destroy a city because there's a squad of special forces operatives on the premises of said city.

>>48937951
>Terrans
>caring about civilian casualties

The third planet the marines landed on, the Terrans would turn to glass from space.

>>48937951
Well typically you wouldn't expend too many resources because a bunch of spec op soldiers really does jack as has been pointed out several times over. That said yes you sure as hell will use heavy weapons vs infantry. It's done in our wars for god's sake. If it were total war, while you wouldn't fire a nuke, you would send planes to strafe them. Bomb buildings they're in. If you have orbital superiority you will necessarily have air superiority and even if you don't, don't tell me future bombs can't target when current ones can. The more dangerous those soldiers are the more you will fire at them. Also when they don't have air or orbital superiority whatever the hell they're targeting in the city can just fly away and any marine that tries to follow is shot down. How is all of this supposedly not an issue.

>>48932462
Simple reminder that few shots from space marine rifle can damage fucking battlecruiser.

>>48936774
Also remember that 40k space combat is "realistic", as in ships plinking at each other millions of kilometers away. Starcraft space combat seems to be the good ol' WW2 dogfighting ranges.

>>48937674
We still don't fight with Beyond Horizon regularly.
Sure, the horizon peak is only 40km away. But you see beyond that.

Then again, we fight wars where 95% of artillery deaths is from shrapnel. Shrapnel is the opposite of a clean hit. Shrapnel is a direct miss if the target is resitant.

>>48938089
That's story/gameplay segregation.

>>48933718
Imperial guard with power armor and bolter perhaps better level equipment and much better logistics.

Pound for pound the Terran marine might be fucked, but dollar for dollar the space marines get shit on.

>>48938340
Then simple reminder that sc terrans basicaly just outcast prison like australia. Its stupid to compare outlaw fracture with full empire. Earth itself probably have much better technology (And its supposed to be 4 race in broodwar addon, but blizzard decided its to much work and released Earth as repaint of terrans. They were lasy douchebags even then)

>>48938059
> Also when they don't have air or orbital superiority
>don't have air or orbital superiority
>any marine that tries to follow is shot down

You clearly do not understand the meaning of aerial superiority.


Any marine chapter other than some batshit insane ones like Black Templars or Space Wolves would indeed employ guerrilla tactics. Not sure where you got the idea that they might not be effective, considering that a marine, unlike any contemporary spec ops operative is able to function for weeks with barely any sleep, rest, and food.

>>48938228
>40k space combat
>"realistic"
Top lels.

>>48938440
Do space marines have something like detection technology to reveal ghosts and cloacked fighters? And nukes.

>>48938440
If you can just explain to me how the hell you can guerrilla your way to controlling a population of, say, 6 billion, then I'm all ears. What is the master plan here exactly, kidnap the president of the US?

>>48937405
Are you suffering a stroke?

The Gauss rifle has awful ballistics as it's just a spike of unquantified metal that may simply shatter upon impact like an explosion instead of actually penetrating. Bolters are ALSO hypersonic and Bolt Pistols can shoot at a flat trajectory at 2.5 kilometers with a snap shot.

>>48938495
>Bolters are also hypersonic

Could I get a source? Seems like shit such as Pulse Rifles would be absolutely terrible in comparison to Bolters if they were hitting Mach 5+.

>>48938495
>boltes
>hypersonic

First of all this is obviously not true. In canon games bolters fire normal rounds, not ones that ignite mid flight, and are slow firing compared to even modern rifles. Second, quote please.

>>48938533
>>48938543
>Praese-Sword Brother Gulvein ran into the dining chamber, his sword buzzing with leashed lightning and a battle hymn on his lips. Six of the Chapter's elite were behind him. To Jushol's psychic senses, (Navigator) their ornate armour seemed to blaze with light as they marched in step into the room, blasting orks off their feet with shots from their bolt pistols. Mass reactives thudded into ork flesh at hypersonic velocities, detonating deep inside to tear chunks from their bodies.
-Eternal Crusader

>The legionary does not move. His finger tenses upon the trigger of his bolt pistol. A single twitch and the firing pin will strike the primer. The charge will ram the warhead down the pistol barrel and out into the still air between the muzzle and my skull. An instant later its secondary charge will fire. By the time it hits my skull it will be travelling at over a thousand metres per second. An instant after it has punched into my brain, it will detonate, scattering blood, bone and shrapnel into the air.
-Child of Night

>Only Mingzhou kept some measure of reason in her head. ‘He’s over twenty-five hundred metres away,’ she assured them. ‘Someone with the best lasrifle on Castellax couldn’t pick off a target from that range. We have to get out of here before he can close the distance.’
As she spoke, Algol raised his arm, the graceless bulk of a bolter clenched in his fist. Without pause or hesitation, the Space Marine fired. From the other side of the tractor, Deacon screamed and fell, his chest ripped to splinters by the bolter’s explosive shell.
*skip*
The slaves hiding in the cargo bed rose and tried to run. As each tried to leap clear, he was picked off in mid-air by a shot from Algol’s bolter, their mangled bodies flying across the tunnel.
-Siege of Castellax

>>48938475
How pretty much all rebellions guerrilla'd their way to power, anon. Striking key locations, utilizing terror tactics, employing those unhappy with the current way of things.

Only in this case you have at least one thousand godlike beings helping you along.

>>48935863
>manufactures its own rounds

Funny that, in cutscenes TMs seem to run out of ammo pretty frequently.

>>48938471
I would imagine ghosts and cloaked fighters would still show up on the motion sensors, although I'm not that sure about the range. Can't think of anything that groundbound marines would counter a nuke with, though.

>>48938475
Blow up all centers for distribution of power, water, and food. America for example would be completely crippled if you just blew up several key locations where our power grid is concentrated, leading to mass starvation as the entire system immediately breaks down.

>>48938617
Except no rebellion has ever conquered this planet. And being associated with aliens would not help in this. And how the fuck are they going to lead an underground rebellion in power armor on, say, a Tau world.

>>48938678
And then what? Everybody's gonna do what you say because you blew up some power plants? Holy shit I hope the terrorists don't figure this out

>>48938588
Also on the Siege of Castellax quote, it's important because it gives us an EXACT frame of time and distance. Algol the Iron Warrior is at a flat trajectory, firing at them from a distance of 2.5 kilometers. One of the Iron Warrior serfs jumps off the cargo bed, Algol snipes him mid-flight in his fall from the truck's cargo bed.

>>48938543
>In canon games
games made by unrelated companies with little oversight beyond "don't fuck too much with the setting pls"?

fluff's never going to be quite like video/tabletop/RP game mechanics

>>48938617

Almost no rebellions "guerillia their way to power" anon. The ones that do either

A) Break off a seperatist area which was only loosely under the control of the legitimate government in the first place (Central Congo wars, arguably ISIS)

B) Eventually morph into a conventional army (Chinese civil war)

C) succeed in attracting help from outside to impose a state (Israel)

>>48938588
>>48938718
Can't say I particularly like that and it sounds somewhat like marinewank, but fluff's fluff.

>>48938471
they have in build targeting and vision system in their helmets that can cycle through multiple vision modes, basically like what the predator from predator2 can do except they don't have to push any buttons since their body is connected to the suit

in the very first HH book the Luna Wolves are fighting against some dudes that can turn invisible and they can see them through one of the vision modes, but I think only when they move

>>48938710
No, the entire nation will break down as hundreds of thousands of people begin to die as all services fail, from water, food, and power thus causing mass riots which would tear the nation apart. Terrorists can't do this because these power grid facilities (and likewise water centers and such), are FUCKING HUGE and you need a shit ton of explosives to take them out that a couple goatfuckers couldn't carry by themselves unless it was a nuke the size of a suitcase. They also have armed guard.

This isn't a problem for Space Marines who can just deepstrike right on top of it, plant some meltabombs, blow the entire thing up, then go to ground. Strike all of these locations at once, and then sit back and watch the nation eat itself alive as order breaks down. Millions would die in the end.

>>48936558
Basically any setting with ftl travel beats 40k spess.

>>48937148
>You're not talking a bunch of marines on Iwo Jima.
If two squads of Marines parachuted into the Reichstaag in 1941 and assassinated the entire Nazi leadership you might talk about them. Thats how Space Marines in 40k win wars.

>>48938687
Well sure, but this planet has never had unified planetary government to begin with.

Associating with aliens is exactly what was done in SC universe, and in those cases the aliens didn't even remotely look like humans, unlike Space Marines.

If the the info about Tau using mind control to minimize the chance of rebellion is to be believed, then the exact same tactic would work even better, as people would be quite pissed about the whole mind control thing, be they Tau, Human or otherwise.

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>>48938782

You might want to take a look at this book. Blowing up infrastructure is rarely as dangerous as you're making it out to be, even if you're leveling entire cities at a time. Mass riots do not generally happen; if anything, acts like that tend to produce a rally round the flag effect.

>>48938782
How do you do that without aerial transport. And are you seriously saying the state would cease to exist or hundreds of thousands died in less than a year if these resources were blown up. And how does that lead you to mastery of the planet even if it did happen? So let's say you're on a tau world, you and your 1000 marines. And you blew up the plants. And now they're air dropping supplies. What's your next move? Seems like you have a few more to go before you're in control of this world. Better not be detected while doing it.

>>48938800
Not just that. What Space Marines do is deepstrike across a planet to completely gut it. Their goal is to destroy all communications, power, leadership, and military power. Blow up every base before they can launch aircraft, blow up every major generator (bonus if nuclear for big boom), slaughter the entire leadership, and take out the comms so nobody can organize a defense. Then they pack their bags and leave so the guard can move in.

>>48938800
So basically they don't win wars at all. Because in that case it would just be manipulating politics in Germany. That in absolutely no way translates to ability to conquer a planet.

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>>48938782
space marines typically do that just to figure out where all the defense forces are, then lure them into a big trap to kill them all in one go so the guard can sweep in and pacify the planet

Exactly how they do it with a couple hundred guys is a mystery, though. Destroying an entire planet's military would require quite a lot of bullets.

>>48938867
How in the fuck do you lure an entire planet's military in one place. It's inconceivable even on our planet and we aren't a damn hive world. This is making me feel dumber.

>>48938811
Rallying is good and all, but wars can't be fought on morale alone.

If a nation has no infrastructure left, it is no longer capable of fighting back as a unified force.

>>48938811
It's dangerous anon because we're centralized. The American power grid is incredibly vulnerable to attack and the result would be supermarkets running out of food in a week if they were all taken out at once. It's specifically why some elements in the Gov want to renovate them, simply because they'd be so vulnerable against an enemy that could strike against us with missiles or bombs. This isn't like WWII, where people still had agricultural elements around them. If the trucks stop delivering food to my city we'd all be dead in a week.

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>>48938828
>How do you do that without aerial transport
anyone who has played epic will know that a thunderhawk is basically impossible to stop.

>>48938887
>How in the fuck do you lure an entire planet's military in one place.
this is why you gotta study the codex astartes, anon

>>48938899
So I guess that's a pretty big tactical switch from we're underground guerrillas huh? Now you're gonna start flying around in a huge metal box while the enemy has air superiority as was supposed in this scenario?

>>48934365

Not really, 40k SM only take the best of the best of the human population in terms of mental and physical strength, then literally brainwash them.

The methods of obtaining these youngsters greatly differs but it's safe to say that hiver scum just isn't going to cut it.

This question is as old as /tg/ itself and has been answered many times

>1153

http://dagobah.net/flash/Space_Marines_vs_Spartans.swf

>>48938887
Tell them that Bretonnia will get a new codex & that it'll be sold there.

>>48938888

>Rallying is good and all, but wars can't be fought on morale alone.

You're missing the point. No matter how much firepower they can bring to an engagement, a guerilla force is limited in its ability to maneuver (especially to critical areas) and deliver lethality.

And legitimate ruling bodies are WAY more resilient than you're giving them credit for.

Historical strategic bombing destroyed more than 75% of all urban buildings within Germany in WW2. That didn't stop military production from increasing, not decreasing as the campaigns ramped up.

>>48938897

And "taking them all out at once" requires a force to find them all, able to move attack forces at them all, and strike them all. Simultaneously. An alien force dropping onto a world they've never been to and then trying to start a guerilla war won't even have access to that kind of information. (Unless they eat the right brain, I guess), let alone necessarily be able to move to strike it without being spotted and having tons of artillery, air power, tanks, etc dumped on them.

>>48938897
And WWII tech is already considered incredibly dated by current standards. I would imagine that SC tech would be far more expensive and complex to actually build.

>>48938933
deep strike marines

marines fuck shit up

flying bricks come in, completely ignoring air superiority fighters because they're tougher than many titans, and get them out to hit another target

donte the demon pulled this maneuver to end the second Armageddon war. It works because thunderhawks don;t give a fuck.

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>>48938957
WHERE

WHEN

I'VE GOT CASH AND I'VE GOT IT NOW

>>48938965
Okay so you couldn't win the guerrilla route so you're just gonna go back to "space marine vehicles are too op and nothing can stop them". We're done.

>>48936178
Do Rhinos count as chariots of iron?

>>48939040
it's the special forces style of guerrilla fighting

just with space blackhawks instead of normal blackhawks

>>48939047

Despite the common fedora line, the Judeo-Christain God is quite capable of dealing with iron chariots.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0617.htm

>>48936714
Battlecruisers do die to suicidal worms with wings, even in cutscenes.

Seriously, what's up with Scourge? How big are those things and what the hell are they filled with?

>>48939061
>>48939081
Take it to >>48938208

>>48939102
plasma

>>48938959
Guerrilla force is still magnitudes more flexible than regular forces, although most of the time the angle being played at is "they wouldn't want to spend TOO much on rooting us out". It's a similar case here, only space marines would be way more dangerous than your typical rebels.

As far as history have showed us, any ruling body that allowed a full-fledged rebellion movement on it's premises to thrive is a rather weak one, otherwise no one in their right mind would consider going against it.


While talking about Germany in WW2 you must also consider the quality of equipment being produced over the course of the war. It's not even remotely comparable, and this is talking about quite simple to produce armor and firearms. The SC or Tau ones that anon was bringing up would be harder to produce.

>>48939178

>Guerrilla force is still magnitudes more flexible than regular forces,

I'm not sure what definition you're using for "flexible", but no, they generally aren't. They're pretty much only good for occupying areas that are hard to get into otherwise.

>As far as history have showed us, any ruling body that allowed a full-fledged rebellion movement on it's premises to thrive is a rather weak one, otherwise no one in their right mind would consider going against it.

But this isn't a rebellion. This is an external invasion that instead of trying to conventionally defeat its enemy, is just kind of hanging around somewhere occasionally blowing things up and hoping that the government will collapse on its own.


>hile talking about Germany in WW2 you must also consider the quality of equipment being produced over the course of the war. It's not even remotely comparable, and this is talking about quite simple to produce armor and firearms. The SC or Tau ones that anon was bringing up would be harder to produce.

And cutting edge technology wise planes, the first missiles, radar sytems, etc. I can't speak much for warhammer 40k, but Starcraft terrans in the Tarsonis system are essentially space nomads. 9 out of the 13 worlds in the confederacy get overrun by the Zerg in the first act of SC1, and despite that, the Terrans bounce back and a mere 4 years later are swarming all over the place. Hell, a few breakway rebels from an already existing rebel group can be dumped on an alien planet god knows how far away from their home and start pumping out capital ships.

Whatever the production process that's used in Starcraft for the Terrans is; it's cheap, mobile, and simple.

Terran Marines are regular humans equipped with a rifle that fires;
>hypersonic 8 mm armor-piercing metal 'spikes'which can penetrate up to two inches of steel plating.

And a suit of power armor that is ubiquitously equipped with;
>inbuilt chemical delivery systems to dose marines with a powerful mix of synthetic adrenaline, endorphins, and a psychotropic aggression enhancer. Marines on stims benefit from greatly increased speed and reflexes."

The late Confederacy/Dominion used to use brainwashing and invasive rescolization conditioning to turn hardened criminals into loyal grunts. This tended to result in soldiers who lacked intiative compared to their non-resoc'd counterparts.

Terran Marines are basically the equalvient of the Techno Babarians of old Terra. Individually they can't match a Space Marine. But with the same amount of time and resources that go into your average 40k Space Marine you could probably train and equip 100+ Terran Marines because they are literally the baseline grunts of their faction.

>>48939178
>although most of the time the angle being played at is "they wouldn't want to spend TOO much on rooting us out".

When Korhal IV, "crown jewel" of the Terran Confederacy declared independence, the Confederacy responded with eradicating all life on the surface with orbital nuclear bombardment.

>>48938440
Its not hard anon.
Orbital on target
Prioritize the anti titan rockets for what you want to kill.
Run trough the battlefield to next goal.
Move like tank: Run over enemies too

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>>48939359
Very good point, I wish there was more fluff on Techno-barbarians

Now he said only one chapter was needed to conquer the sector, but he didn't say that was the only Imperial forces brought to bear. Maybe the Imperial Guard supports the marines and holds the planets after they've left?

>>48939359
Not really. The closest we've seen to Terran tech barbarians, Caliban, was a society with medieval technology... except for the knight orders who had power armor, chainswords, bolter revolvers, and lived in ginormous castles crammed full of areotech. Not to mention the snippets we know of Terran Techno Barbarians are fucking horrifying. Like one nation in East Europe had an army comprised entirely of dreadnoughts.

>>48932462
One on one? Absolutely not.
Could the Terrans beat the Astartes in a pitched campaign?
Absolutely.

>>48939875
In a full campaign they'd get fucking destroyed because Space Marines bring along orbital superiority, air superiority, and tank superiority.

>>48934365
>Aren't 40k SMs also criminals and other such "urban youths" before they get all their enhancents?
naw dog dats just the Blud Ravens, cuz.

>>48939268
If that were the case, guerrilla warfare would not have ever been used for practically anything. As it stands though, even large countries with huge militaries had problems actually effectively countering guerrilla tactics, short of completely leveling the place where "that one group of rebels might be hiding in". Although, I'll give you that a space marine is not as easily concealed.

>But this isn't a rebellion. This is an external invasion that instead of trying to conventionally defeat its enemy, is just kind of hanging around somewhere occasionally blowing things up and hoping that the government will collapse on its own.

My point is, that they are actually actively trying to bring the government down. They have the abilities, and, depending on how well-equipped chapter we are talking about, they have the equipment. On top of that they can, and probably will be using local rebellious elements to incite even more unrest, either forcing the local governments to switch their focus from the invaders to the local strife, or forcing them to try and do both, bleeding them out.

>Whatever the production process that's used in Starcraft for the Terrans is; it's cheap, mobile, and simple.

As someone above has already stated, it's gameplay and story segregation. Much of the game is simplified in order to be a good strategy game, not to be a good indicator of how things really are.

>>48939359
>But with the same amount of time and resources that go into your average 40k Space Marine you could probably train and equip 100+ Terran Marines because they are literally the baseline grunts of their faction.

This. Terran Marines are like a Guardsman, but with a standard issue autogun and power armor.

So basically they're closer to Sisters of Battle. Except not as psychotic.

>>48939450
Well we have to consider that we don't have an unlimited supply of anti-titan rockets so conquering a whole sector using the same tactic might not work

>>48932462
A single marine can destroy a whole battlecruiser, so it's very likely.

Better question, if Chris Metzen and Matt Ward were to battle each other with their favored factions, who would win?

>>48938471
It's called an auspex, there's usually one to a squad. On top of it being a GPS and few other built in goodies.

>>48940075
Not as psychotic YET
Stimpacks, dude.

>>48940070
>short of completely leveling the place where "that one group of rebels might be hiding in".

Terrans literally do exactly this repeatedly in fluff.

>it's gameplay and story segregation.

At no point does that post ever mention gameplay. It's all fluff.

>>48934365
40k SM are the best of the best. The chapters will recruit anyone they find promising. "Hey, this gangster took down 50 arbites before he was arrested? We need him on our side."

They don't take average dudes or chaos dudes though.

A 40k marine would annihilate a single terran marine through the mix of experience and the fact that one of them is a demi-god underneath that power armor.

For the people bringing ghosts, nukes, and other shit into the argument:
>Yes. The terran confederacy could easily win a fight with a space marine chapter.
They just have too much tech (which they understand well) that they can throw at the problem (and that problem is only like 1000 guys)

This argument is kinda stupid though when we consider the fact that space marine chapters aren't meant to fight such a large scale war all by their lonesome.

Starcraft doesn't have a great analog to Space Marines in that there isn't a group of mega-badasses whose job is basically to wreck whatever the biggest baddest shit on the battlefield is but let's consider what else the confederacy basically is in 40k terms:
>A suped up version of the Imperial Guard
>An upgraded version of the Imperial Navy
>Vehicles up to the scale that would mean obvious Mechanicus support
>Ghosts are basically Officio Assasinorum support (though certainly short of a full temple assassin)

Space Marines are practically an army by themselves but after the First Founding of the chapters their power was intentionally limited in such a way that they can't stand up to a massive, diverse, and effective military all by themselves.

>>48940356
>Terrans literally do exactly this repeatedly in fluff.

Seeing as even a company of marines can cause a whole lot of hurt, they would need to glass half of the sector in question. That... wouldn't be smart.

>At no point does that post ever mention gameplay. It's all fluff.

Can I get a look at some of that fluff? Especially the "rebels that start churning out battleships" one.

>>48934365
>>48940410
Actually, it depends on the chapter what their recruitment criteria is. They have to basically be a badass in their teens to get the job (age is a requirement for the transformation, as is being a dude)

What else is necessary is actually chapter dependent. More honorable chapters presumably don't take gangers. I'm not sure about the exact rules for many of them but to illustrate, here's the Space Wolves with their usual weirdness:

Space Wolves recruit from the dead and dying on Fenris. Basically, they do the whole valkyrie routine and show up to battlefields to recruit young men who died or nearly died being awesome. Obviously recruiting dead people involves them being a little dead so that space marine tech can still fix it.

My point is that each chapter has WILDLY different rules about who they're going to take and that the only specific requirements are age, gender, and badassery. From there other more stringent requirements vary by chapter.

>>48932462
What's with the Terran Marine posts all of a sudden, did 1d4chan post a new page or something?

>>48940554
"Half" is less than 70%, which is the percentage of Terran worlds that were glassed in Starcraft 1.

The "rebels churning out battleships" is an exaggeration, but the entire UED invasion fleet was built in-situ, and the whole of the Brood War lasted less than a year. I don't have my Brood War manual on-hand, but it's in there IIRC.

>>48940572
>More honorable chapters presumably don't take gangers
There is nothing inherently more or less dishonorable about the Hive Ganger from a Hiveworld then there is about the Techno Barbarion from a Feral World or the Survivalist from a Death World.

>>48940070
>If that were the case, guerrilla warfare would not have ever been used for practically anything.


What the hell are you talking about? NOBODY uses guerilla warfare as their first option. There's a reason it's called the weapon of the weak.

>As it stands though, even large countries with huge militaries had problems actually effectively countering guerrilla tactics,

They have trouble defeating counterinsurgency; they have trouble putting down insurrections like that. The guerillas themselves tend to die in hugely greater numbers than the regulars they're facing down.

>short of completely leveling the place where "that one group of rebels might be hiding in".

That's actually not true at all. I would recommend you actually read something about counterinsurgency. Here's a good place to start. http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/L/bo3649905.html

The problem is that guerillas spring up in areas that states cannot or will not effectively police and have trouble putting enough eyes out to squash them. Actually squashing them, should the intelligence and administrative issues be solved, isn't the hard part.

>My point is, that they are actually actively trying to bring the government down.

But they're not a rebellion. They're not leeching from the same pool of support the government draws upon. They're not providing an alternative means of governance, a figure that disaffected people in the existing structure can rally around, an administrative framework to rule areas they do secure.
1/2

>>48940070
>>48941168
>On top of that they can, and probably will be using local rebellious elements to incite even more unrest, either forcing the local governments to switch their focus from the invaders to the local strife, or forcing them to try and do both, bleeding them out.

Which are? And how many people are going to be willing to throw in with what are effectively aliens from another galaxy who are hell bent on slaughtering everything they see, even when overthrowing a despot in an area they're nominally trying to help.>>48938867


>As someone above has already stated, it's gameplay and story segregation. Much of the game is simplified in order to be a good strategy game, not to be a good indicator of how things really are.

Except the story also mentions how Terran cities are essentially cheap, prefabricated things thrown about on the move and that entire communities disappear overnight if there's an economic rush somewhere else.

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>>48936864
>kilometers long
Pic related. The Blizzard fanboys have no concept of how overly fucked they are by a singular Space Marine Battlefleet

>>48941547
Holy fucking shit I did not realize the Gloriana was that huge.

>>48941664
Some are bigger, that's just "standard" (each Gloriana was constructed based on the Legion it was the flagship for)

>>48941547
>the largest Terran ships are 40K frigate sized

Kek.

That said, the most powerful ship on that chart (that I know of) is not the biggest.

Zerg is fluffed as a huge swarm of evil bastard monsters, therefore they're gonna have a fuck tonne of each unit. If they have 1000 infestors they win, neural parasite the marines and mind control them. As marines are human they could possibly be infested too, and that's not even taking into consideration how Marines are going to deal with lurkers and nydus worms bringing in suicide units powerful enough to melt through Thor armor plating.
The marines are fucked, they're a finite number fighting a near infinite force, just look at Char, Raynor lost most of his forces there even with Mobeius and Valerian's support, entire battle cruiser fleets were destroyed by irellevant brood mothers in the siege of Korhal.
I think Seige tanks and battle cruisers would be an issue though, same with collosi and any Protoss air considering their capital ships are the size of sky scrapers and the spear of Adun could actually use motherships, which dwarf those capital ships, like a carrier uses interceptor drones.
All of that is unimportant though as because the story went to shit Kerrigan is literally a god now so the marines are fucked the second they decide to mess with her universe.

>>48939960
Which they'll never be able to bring to bear because it takes armies decades to mobilize jackshit in 40k.

Terrans have superior FTL technology, leading to superior supply lines, leading to superior deployment.

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Since its similar to the thread topic

How would you stat Jim Raynor for TT 40K?

>>48941547
I don't see the Starcraft stuff...

OH WAIT, found them! The tiny little dots next to the Independence Day ship!

...their biggest ship is about as big as the gun on the Battle Barge. Each chapter has one Chapter Flagship, and... how many Battle Barges? Two or three is average? And a space-faring Chapter has... more. Five or so, probably.

>>48941765
True, however we all know how ridiculous Void Shielding is, and how nukes do absolutely fuck all against even Marines in Terminator armor

>>48941799
> Zerg oh so scary
Most chapters have plenty of experience fighting the Tyranids, which even the Imperium of Mankind is afraid of, let that sink in for a second, now the Zerg were repelled by a force far less powerful than even a single Imperial Battlefleet

>>48941810
> Le joke about the IoE never getting off of it's collective asses
I guess you know literally zero about the 40k fluff since you think that Space Marine Chapters are governed by anyone other than the High Lords of Terra, whose last intervention was likely the chapters last founding. Not taking into account the Emperors Tarot which is fortune telling that lets Imperial Battlegroups know decades or even centuries in advance to get to where they need to be when/ before/ around when they need to be there. Not taking into account the Bureaucracy of the Imperial navy not being nearly that bad.

>>48936297
I just wish the the movie troopers wore the power armor from the book

>>48941843
Primarch rebelling against corrupt emps, obviously.

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>>48941547
>Version of the pic that includes the ship from Red Dwarf
My melanin-enhanced person of close familial relations :D

>>48941843
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
3 4 3 3 2 3 2 7 4+

Those are about fair

>>48942006
Hey FAMALAM

>>48941936
Zerg lad here. They still have mind control and infestation.
Also Kerrigan is a fucking god.
Unless the marines can now kill gods they are fucked.

>>48941986
mengsk was by far the best voice in the entire cast, and was trying to get rid of kerrigan

killing him off was the wrong move

>>48942129
But... they can?

They can kill an Avatar of Khaine.

They can kill Shards of C'tan.

Lesser gods, yeah. Avatars of gods. But the point stands.

>>48941547
I can't find Battle Barges on here.

>>48941936
>nukes do absolutely fuck all against even Marines in Terminator armor

[citation needed]

>Not taking into account the Emperors Tarot which is fortune telling that lets Imperial Battlegroups know decades or even centuries in advance to get to where they need to be when/ before/ around when they need to be there.

It doesn't matter if they know where they need to be in advance if it takes them weeks/months/years to get to those places when the Terrans can reach them in days/hours/minutes.

>>48942219
The Battle Barge is right under the biggest Warhammer 40k ship (the Chapter Flagship). The sorta tan looking one.

>>48942129
>Mind control
They ward off Infestation by DAEMONS, literally by sheer force of will, the Zerg really don't have much power here, beside the fact that there physiology is fucked to the point where even most warp fuckery is a moot point. Let's not even begin with C'Tan shards, if you think Kerrigan is a god you have little imagination for the 41st Millenium. A C'Tan shard can and will eat entire planets by itself. These are fairly routine horrors they would have to deal with. Let alone the Daemons which have literal undying hordes that make the Zerg seem small. Kerrigan is at BEST a Hive Tyrant Equivalent, powerful sure, scary yes, overly dangerous to a full chapter of space marines ehh not so much

>>48942129
A Librarian can just rip out her soul dude. Space Marines are also brainwashed as to be immune to mind control and they can't be infested really. It will react with their biology and likely kill him in the process.

>>48942255

First part of that, fair enough, they might have a hard time doing it because shes in charge of a gigantic hive mind, so Id imagine theres a lot of soul to pull out.

> Space Marines are also brainwashed as to be immune to mind control and they can't be infested really. It will react with their biology and likely kill him in the process.

Second part? Absolutely not. Resistant? Sure. But even marines get mindfucked by chaos pretty often. Where the fuck are you getting that marines will self destruct if they get infested? Zerg's adaptive biology is fucking ridiculous, probably even moreso than Tyranids, they could corrupt Protoss. Space marines may have crazy augmentations and gene therapy, but they're still way closer to human than anything else.

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>>48942248
So it is. Not the shape I'm familiar with, pic related.

Also, the Glorianas were Legion Flagships, not Chapter, and the only one left is Abbadon's flagship.

>>48942190

Nah, the Overmind> Mengsk.

>>48942389
the overmind made kerrigan
the overmind fucked up

>>48942462

I meant in term of voice acting.

>>48942512
he fucked up bad, which places all other achievements in question

also he exists only as a spooky ghost of retcons in 2, which is another black mark

>>48942313
They don't get mindfucked by Chaos anon, they only get corrupted if they willingly are tempted by power. Otherwise Astartes just shrug that off. Tyranids also try their own version of infesting space marines with the genestealer's kiss, the result is the Marine's unstable biology going haywire.

And no, the Zerg are not nearly as fucking adaptive as the Tyranids. The Dark Eldar, the greatest scientists of the universe, tried to unravel Tyranid genes and their conclusion is that Tyranids are basically magic, obey no known physical laws, and are impossible to control. Tyranids have grown immune to viruses that instantly break down all tissue in a body (Flesh Eater), and are even completely immune to Nurgle's Rot, and all other plagues created by Nurgle, including the metaphysical.

>>48942717
> the Zerg are not nearly as fucking adaptive as the Tyranids.

This is outright wrong. Tyranids adapt over generational increments. Zerg adaption ranges from "in a single generation" to "growing new adaptions in the field" to "meta-morphing into fundamentally different life-forms in minutes." The Zerg Virus is uncurable because it mutates too fast. It changes so substantially that it becomes unrecognizable as the same disease within minutes, and it is in a constant state of mutation. Even if you somehow had a cure in your hand, your cure wouldn't work by the time you inserted the needle.

>>48943632
Nope. You need to read more fucking Tyranid fluff, because Nids when fighting Daemons were instantly adapting to nurgle diseases. You need to remember that Tyranid "generations" are measured in seconds as the Hive constantly produces an endless amount of new biomorphs. Tyranids are impossible to infect with anything, as their biology isn't even recognizable as biology. Again, they are able to evolve to stop metaphysical warp plagues conjured up by Nurgle himself with such speed that Nurgle was not able to create plagues fast enough to keep up. Not to mention Tyranid evolution even is able to adapt like the Borg, at the cost of reproduction speeds.

>>48943711
I'm fully aware, yes. Tyranids still don't literally mutate into new forms mid-combat. The new breeds have to be born and phased into the front. Zerg don't, the creatures already on the front simply mutate into the new breed.

>>48943632
>>48943711

So 'nids and Zerg are about as adaptive as each other.

>>48943829
I don't think adaptiveness is what's important, anyway. There's a LOT more Tyranids than Zerg, but Tyranids are "merely" hyperintelligent animals, whereas The Overmind/Kerrigan, in addition to being hyperintelligent, are capable of reason. Obviously in a hypothetical "All Tyranids VS All Zerg," the Tyranids will win by sheer weight of volume, but I think pound-for-pound the Zerg are a bigger threat.

>>48943632
Zergs are limited to DNA they have consumed though. Tyranids are able to completely alter the form of their biomorphs to completely different functions the moment they make contact with a stimulus that is recognized as a threat by the Hivemind and are only limited by the amount of resources the Hivemind judges the planet they're fighting over is worth.

>>48943925
>>48943917

Do the zerg eat planets?

>>48943980
No. Though I'd think that is largely because their goal is the assimilation of all genetic material and/or destruction of a single species, where as the Tyranids goal is simply to gather resources. Tyranids have rapid evolution as a byproduct of single mindedly consuming 13 galaxies, but the entire point of the Zerg's existence is rapid evolution. If planets had genetic material I'm sure zerg would eat them with gusto.

>>48943925
This is true, they essentially just modify template races rather than make new ones outright.

>>48943980
Kind of? They eat all the biomass and suck all the mineral nutrients out of the ground, but where the Tyranids would at this point drink the oceans, inhale the atmosphere, then float on leaving a barren rock, the Zerg essentially turn the entire planet into a giant nest.

>>48944066

Then 'nids are the bigger threat.

Zerg might be worse on the ground, but they aren't as big a problem as something that is devouring planets and leaving them as uninhabitable husks.

This is presuming that habitable planets are a commodity, at any rate.

>>48944182
>Planets, a commodity
What kind of shitty universe doesn't have dozens of worlds to throw at a war without consequence

>>48944241

Ours?

>>48943917
>Tyranids are "merely" hyperintelligent animals
The Hivemind is intelligent, capable of reason, and probably sapient. It's just that the only things that matters to it is that it's fucking hungry and biomass is delicious. It's only priorities are keeping itself alive and finding the nearest thing to om nom nom on, but don't think that means it's stupid. The Hivemind can and frequently does trick and outmaneuver it's opponents and the the Tyranids are capable of recognizing their enemies strategy and adapting their tactics as well as it's biology to counter it. And then there's the Swarmlord.

>>48936640
cadia is 40k stalingrad

>>48935893
If GW could reasonably sue Blizzard for ripping off their IP, then the Tolkien and Frank Herbert estates would now each own half of a shitty toy company.

>>48932462

No. The Terran marine is just a guardsman in a slightly less shitty suit of tin foil as opposed to a T-shirt.

>>48936888
I count 4:
The Lensmen
The Culture
The Xelee
The Downstreamers

Maybe 5 if you count Time-War era Dr. Who but that's pretty sketch imo.

I cannot think of any others, anon. Like out of all of sci-fi. Please enlighten us all though (if you can)

>>48943829
If the Zerg had a couple million more years of evolution under their collective belts and several galaxies to nom on previously they'd be the Tyranids. It's all a matter of time scale, the Zerg Swarm has only been around a couple thousand years.

>>48946303
terran suits can actually repel about between 7-11 shots from his own weapon or about 9-13 hits from a zergling

their own guns are far stronger than an autogun, they, in canon, penetrate 2 inches of solid steel, with the ability to fire unerringly at air targets. this makes it superior to a .50 calibre gun, which, with AP rounds, only penetrate ~1 inch of steel, assuming that these differences can be abstracted at a strategic level, the terran gauss rifle is roughly equivelant to a heavy stubber, with a higher AP rating (~AP5) and range, making it equal to long range bolter

given that they can take about 7 hits from a bolter, 7 bolter hits at BS4 against a T3 (since terran marines are only human) will produce exactly 1 wound, if their armor is 3+, so their armor is equivalent to SoB power armor

so a terran marine would be a SoB equivelant, all armed with long range heavy stubbers

>>48946847
The 4 races from The Saga of Seven Suns could probably do the trick, chaos god bullshit excluded.

>>48947363
forgot to answer the quiestion

no, they still couldnt take a space marine 1 on 1
but the power gap isnt quite as big as most people assume

>>48947507
That actually looks like a pretty cool series, I hadn't even heard of it before you posted. I'll have to check it out.
My point though, was that the anon I replied to claiming that OP didn't read much sci-fi was almost certainly false due to 40k having few sci-fi universes that could 'take it.'

>>48938661
Fighters, maybe. Ghosts don't, it's psionic, it should work like the invisibility power does.

>>48947649
No, Ghost cloak is not psionics, it's part of their suit.

>>48936178
Damn straight punch him straight in the dick; that's what they would do, while screaming fuck you God.

>>48936450
Yeah I like to think that they have their own personal battle groups, fully formed naval, army, and marine forces like the old imperial army. The difference between now them and a imperial guard / navy joint open is that they have 1000 bad ass marines and at their head a coordinateday and highly organised military structure run by century old veterans.

No, but I think an average protoss zealot could, and it's usually about 2.5 terran marines to one zealot.

>>48946847
Conjoiners from Revelation Space might be able to pull off tactical victories. Setting has some really crazy stuff.

>>48938471
Sure that's similar to tau or Eldar tech

>>48948276
a zealot with full shields can take roughly 30 hits (!) from a terran gauss rifle, or ~3 times tougher than a marine, while killing a marine in roughly 4 hits, or 2 attacks, since the zealot strikes twice

the psi blades are only slightly stronger than a gauss rifle, so it would be similar in strength, however it attacks twice per attack

zealots are trained diligently for decades in the arts of combat, whether or not it surpasses a space marine is hard to tell, but it would be enough to count as WS4, as they are clearly superior to baseline humans

assuming the zealots can use charge to negate being crippled by overwatch, a zealot locked in single combat with a standard tactical marine has a good chance of outright killing the marine, and will hold its own in the subsequent fight

could a standard Astartes beat Alarak?

>>48932462
Terran marine is struggling just to kill a fucking zergling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-00uQzXyujI
So no they wouldn't stand a chance.

>>48948592
on the other hand, you can check other cutscenes in WoL where they hold their own

>>48948621
SC2 is non-canon for me after the shit Metzen pulled off.

>>48948648
>Overmind was good all along even though Zeratul linked minds with it and said nothing about this
>Kerrigan wasn't evil, she was just possessed by Zergbits, even though she confirms she is in full control of her actions in Brood War
>Kerrigan is good guy who compromises her own plans to save lives, even though uninfested Kerrigan helped Mengsk murder billions of people with psi-amplifiers
>Kerrigan is no longer manipulative, just a generic villain with no stake in anything
>Raynor and Kerrigan's love story is the most important thing in whole universe, even though it was literally like three flirty banter pieces in the first game
>Tassadar is still alive or an illusion or something
>Zerg aren't worms from a volcanic planet, they are spiky things from a jungle planet and are obsessed with bettering themselves
>UED never returns despite still being interested in Koprulu sector
>Nova is squeezed in everywhere because fans sure loved her in that game that never came out
>Nobody is bad guy, they're all being manipulated by Amon
>Duran has Dragonball Z laser fight with Star Kerrigan
>ANCIENT EVIL PROPHECIES

>>48948656
>Mengsk, one of the most devious and capable strategist in the galaxy becomes a cartoon villain equivalent of Robotnic in Sonic
>Raynor is a fucking prodigy steamrolling everything while coining some one-liners. One battlecruisers versus the entire kropulu sector
>Kerrigan, the most powerful force that has conquered the galaxy, decided to turn emo and withdraw her troops. Also lol we like Kerrigan let's make her important and not kill her away, we need a prophecy. Turns out she's not a villain she was controlled all along! We need her badly for commercial purposes guys c'mon
>Zeratul : I used to be a bad-ass assassin of ancient ways and tell others people what's it's about but now I talk in allegories and shit, and I have prophecies that make writers make shit up as they go in every expansions!
>Every villains looks weak, have no importance and just throw one-liners at you like a raid boss. Even Amon of all characters.
>Ok Overmind was a cool villain, but wait, he was controlled by an even bigger villain!
>Tassadar is alive, but they backpedal because of litterate people playing the game and complaining. So yeah it was a Xel'naga all along even if the dialogue in WOL clearly say it wasn't the case at all
>Golden Armada : lol let's fight it with Raynor just for fun, it's not like most of the protoss are dead from SC and BW. More dick-sucking feel-good dialogue for Raynor.
>Tal'darim : lol silly religious people let's kill them all and take their shit. Wait people reacted to that. Let's make it so they are controlled by an evil guy, say Narud in HOTS! Yeah so Narud sent you collect artefacts from the taldarim that were controlled by him. Fuck logic!
>Hey guys I'm stukov, remember the good games ?
>Duran : lol noone remembers him right ? Let's erase him from the games because I can't bother explaining who he was. So let's say he's someone else, then kill this guy, and never talk about him again or aknowledge him whatsoever.

>>48948648
even in SC1 a marine could easily take 2 zerglings easy

>>48948674
>>48948656
way to simplify everything and clearly didn't play LotV

Taldarim and the Dae'lam are actually awesome

>>48948699
nope you had micro the marine or use its range. Zergling DPS is one of the largest in the game especially with adrenal glands

>>48948656
>>48948674

I was willing to give WoL a blind eye, but now that you mention the whole thing, I remember the other two games being complete shit storywise.

>>48932462
No, lead designer on blizzard even stated 1 space marine chapter could defeat the entire terran dominion

>>48940572
I know the Ultramarines hold planet-wide tournaments to find their new recruits. The winners get inducted as Space Marines while he runners-up are generally offered positions as Chapter serfs.

>>48942255
>It will react with their biology and likely kill him in the process.
Which part of their biology would be most likely to repel "foreign invasion" sort of stuff?

>>48941843
Tapped that Zerg-Angel-Queen ass/10

>>48948656
>>Kerrigan wasn't evil, she was just possessed by Zergbits, even though she confirms she is in full control of her actions in Brood War
Exactly what a possessed person would say!

>>48932462
No

>>48932544
Yes

>>48938938
> but it's safe to say that hiver scum just isn't going to cut it.
lmao no they often cut it
depending on the chapter they're mostly made up of it to
see the sons of horus for example

>>48942717
This, the galactic god of disease and decay and death has created the most magical virulent bizzare and horrible diseases known to the material universe, and the tyranids can adapt to it within an hour and start using it as a bioweapon in their own torpedo's

>>48943825
They have to cocoon themselves and develop into the new forms mind you so its not really any more useful than reinforcing the nids with new waves

>>48942717
>tried to unravel Tyranid genes and their conclusion is that Tyranids are basically magic, obey no known physical laws, and are impossible to control.

This is why Nidfags suck so much dick.

In novel "Valedor" the Dark Eldar said that Tyranids gene patterns are simplistic.

>and are even completely immune to Nurgle's Rot

Bullshit.

They grew resistance to some of the plagues unleashed by Nurglite daemons. That's it.

>>48941547
almost all of those hueg ones are imperial navy

>>48949908
>‘What have you done to my trophies?’ hissed Hesperax. ‘How are they supposed to fight in the games?’

>One of the haemonculi retreated behind the hex cages, pretending to be intent on its work. The other rose into the air, the thrum of its grafted grav-organs deliberately audible. It floated towards her, wizened feet trailing clawed nails.

>‘Ah, Mistress Hesperax, welcome. Do not alarm yourself. We have ascertained the structure of these creatures. The vivisection is a necessary stage, but we are sure we can replicate as many as you might require. Their gene-weavings are delightfully simple.’

-Valedor

Here is the excerpt from the novel where the Dark Eldar say that Tyranids genes are simplistic to them, and they can clone as clone as many of them as necessary.

How could you compare 60 million of refined Eldar science against the natural selection of an upstart race like the Tyranids? The Eldar learned the secrets of life and the genome from the legacy of Old Ones themselves. They mastered biology long before the Tyranids began their journey. So what are the Tyranids to the Eldar? Dumb animals to be culled and farmed.

>>48949908
to be fair it was developing immunity too a literallly magical deamonic disease.

it's still a noteworthy achievement.

>>48949952
60 million years*

>>48949950
spacemarine vessels are just as big as their navy counterparts. A battlebarge is the same size as battleship, many battle barges are actually refitted former navy battleships.

>>48949952
tyranids are almost cetainly older than the eldar, perhaps older than the old ones. You don't devourer and travel between 12 galaxies in a short amount of time.

>>48950002
>perhaps older than the old ones

I don't think so.

The Emperor said that the Old Ones are older than the Sol System's star.

>>48936983

I'd go with either S3 AP4 24" or S3 AP5 30" depending on if you want to sell them as 'Dangerous' or 'Long range'.

Have the combat stims give them +1 shot but Gets Hot (To represent people dying from stim overdose).

Throws out an unholy amount of anti-infantry fire but you don't use them to take on tanks.

>>48950007
When was that? Not saying you're bullshitting, I'd just like to see the quote.

>>48950038
It's in "Collected Visions".

When he is talking to Dorn and Malcador about the Webway.

>>48940075

Less well trained (The SOB are all as good as multi-campaign veteran shots, after all) but likely more crazy, once you add the drugs/resoc it.

>>48950007
that is only 4 or 5 billion years.
Tyriands being billions of years old seems likely.

>>48950047
Oh, don't have that one. Worth getting?

>>48950079
If you like the old HH lore, sure. The 30K or 40K general should have it in their collection of links.

>>48941843

I'd honestly base him off the HOTS version of Raynor rather than Starcraft TT. The former has more focus on single potent characters that work better for 40k HQ.

Raynor

BS5 WS4 S3 T4 W3 I4 A3 LD9 3+

Custom Tailored C-14 Impaler:
High Velocity - 30" S4 AP 5 Assault 4, Rending.
Penetrating Shot - 30" S8 AP1 Assault 1, Concussive

Inspiring Hero: Models in the same unit as Raynor have Stubborn and Prefered Enemy(All)
Too Stubborn to Die: Raynor has It Will Not Die and a 5++ Inv save.

Orbital Support: Raynor may make attacks with the following profiles, though each profile may only be used once per game
Yamato Support: Infinite Range S10 AP1, Heavy 1 Armourbane
Banshee Support: Infinite Range Str 5 AP 4 Heavy 1, Large Blast, Barrage, Ignores Cover

May Take a Vulture (Bike + Defensive Grenades)

>>48935987
it hits harder than a .50 cal so str4 ap5 minimum. it hits aircraft pretty easily, mutaliska just float in game, but in-universe they juke pretty good, so they can hit flyers just fine

so long range anti aircraft bolters or even just man portable heavy stubbers

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>>48950027
No way in hell would the C-14 be AP4, it's AP5 at best and ultimately should have either the same or worse stats than a bolter.

>>48950127
>T4
>3+

Are you fucking shitting me?

>>48947764
It is powered by their psionics, but that is the reactor which may just be a particularly compact power source that if you put on a normal human it won't work. Mind you people cloaked with it produce a faint ripple in the air that can be seen with the naked eye and it's not any better than other Terran cloaking tech.

>>48948674
>Mengsk, one of the most devious and capable strategist in the galaxy becomes a cartoon villain equivalent of Robotnic in Sonic
The hell he was the most capable strategist, devious I'll give you, he was quite the manipulator, but he was not a great general by any stretch.

>>48950300

He's a special character and one really notable for being hard as balls to kill. There are IG special characters in the past with S or T 4. Human can reach 4s, even if it's rare.

He's also in power armour. That would be a 3+

After all, 3+ covers everything from 'Almost a mech' (Tau) to space marine armour and SOB armour. There doesn't really seem to be anything to justify knocking something that's in-universe power armour to 4+ or lower.

>>48950300

It is worse than a bolter. S 3 AP 4 is almost always a worse weapon than a bolter.

>>48950456
I'd say S4, since>>48950137
so it would be similiar to a heavy stubber

>>48950522

Eh, we run into the issue of trying to tell gameplay from fluff.

I tried to distill it down to it's most iconic traits in the descriptions: It's got fantastic penetration and excellent range.

That and 'Bolter + Better' is kinda boring on a guy who's already in power armour. If I was going to give it a fancy special ability it would likely be 'On a 6 to pen, take off 1 hull point'. So massed fire can eventually put some holes in armour.

>>48950570
make it a heavy stubber with less range but skyfire

>>48934365
That's the salamanders.

>>48950446
We've seen Terran Power armor in detail however and its plates are paper thin, much thinner than any power armor the Imperium uses, and it is in no way justified as having a 3+. Terran Power armor is basically an exoskeleton with thin sheets of steel bolted on. I would be shocked if it stood up to high caliber armor piercing rifle fire.

>>48950777
they can be shot by their own guns quite a few times actually >>48947363

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>>48950777
In the cinematic where Tychus gets suited up it's a bit inconsistent, but there are multiple points where it seems to be quite thick plates going in place. Not that I am going to go through everything to find more evidence of how thick the armor is, I'm just saying it isn't all paper thin like you seem to think.

>>48950850
IIRC it's also some fancy material called 'neosteel.' They make a lot of their military equipment out of it.

I don't know the specifics, but it's supposed to be pretty good shit. Getting the neosteel bunker upgrade in the game ups your bunker capacity from four units to six (or two large infantry units to three, like a firebat or marauder) without sacrificing building HP.

>>48950850
That's paper thin in the context of what you should be putting on power armor. Again that shit wouldn't even stand up to modern high powered armor piercers, it doesn't help either that the armor doesn't even try to create sloped/angled surfaces to glance shit off.

Terran Armor also really doesn't look that great at all considering spikes fired by Zerg are able to go right through it, yet from what we've seen in cutscenes should have absolutely horrid ballistics.

>>48951090
Terran armor isn't made out of normal steel, it's made out of some futuristic space metal which is lighter and stronger called neosteel, though specifics in just how good it is aren't usually given.

Zerg spines just happen to be fired with retard strength. According to lore the spines themselves travel at speeds which are 'nearly hypersonic.'

Tychus Findlay alone could do it. He has a minigun and doesn't afraid of anything

>>48951090
They should have horrid ballistics but apparently they can penetrate some amount of neosteel at half a kilometer and are nearly hypersonic.

>>48932462
You do realize terran marines are the heavily armored imperial guard of their franchise right? That most of them come from space alabama right?

The space man wins.

>>48951090
>>48951156
>>48951181
>The hydralisk has 4,000 muscles, compared to aterran's 629, and a portion of these may be used to launch the spines with enough force to penetrate 2 cm. ofneosteel at a range of over 300 meters or even half a kilometer at a velocity greater than that of theC-20A rifle, moving at near hypersonic speeds.The spines were evolved from the slothien's defensiveurticatinghairs;they may be "grooved" for increased rangeand are highly poisonous.

>>48951212
>2 cm steel
>less than an inch thick

Are they even trying

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>>48951237
Neosteel.

This has been said something like five times, it's basically Starcraft equivalent of plasteel.

>>48951385
>terran marines spend crucial seconds staring at projectiles flying towards them
>look like chavs in wetsuits

>Space Marines would've blown the Zerg up 2 weeks ago with no traces of life left

ARE THEY
EVEN
TRYING

>>48946847
Well, you've got Hyperion, where small arms display more range and accuracy than fleet weapons in 40k, and actual warships engage at double digit AU ranges.

You've got Foundation's edge era Foundation, where you can cross the entire galaxy in half an hour, blow up planets with tiny one man craft, and build ps ionic nullifiers.

You've got Lord of Light and all the " tech can literally turn people into immortal Hind deities", and while we're on the subject of Zelazny, you've got Creatures of Light and Darkness, where "push button, cut Galaxy's population in half" is a thing, and a lot of the fighting is done in "temporal fugue" I.e. A loop of going back in time to kill your opponent first.

You've got The Last Question, where Humanity tries to stave off entropy by building stars from interstellar hydrogen, and CREATES the Judeo-Christian God with their supercomputer.

You've got the later Dune books, which span multiple Galaxies and any idiot can blow up multiple planets with the sort of atomic weapons they're all too scared of retaliation in kind to actually use on each other.

Really, there's lots of stuff.

>>48952046
Less than 10. And as side from dune what -well known- universe can actually go toe to toe with 40k? Maybe Dr who? Maybe Dune? Maybe, maybe, starwars EU?

>>48939747
I can conquer the world using only my left nut.
>lol, no you can't.
Err, but what if the testicle had unnamed support from a millions strong as and space ships.

>>48952687
>>48952687
>Simmons
>Asimov
>Zelazny
>not well known

Pleb tier.

And if you want popular, go to TV. Star Trek has things like the Q, who can obliterate the galaxy with s thought, and Babylon 5 where you have at least 8 "first one" species who have achieved a kind of ascension like Emps wanted for humanity. You've got short stories like The Billiard Ball where an earthbound humanity discovers antigravity and this the ability to create infinite energy and inertia less projection of anything at the speed of light, which trumps anything 40k's got.

>>48938228
>What's Battlefleet Gothic
The post

>>48941547
I want to see the Imperial Fist Phalanx fortress ship on here

>>48949952
You know in 2nd edition fluff, tyranids have been around since the start of the universe? and consumed "countless" galaxies?

Sure in more recent fluff its estimated at dozens but they are definitely older than Eldar

>>48955107
Either a tabletop game or a video game, neither of which accurately depict the fluff (which says about ships plinking at each other millions of kilometers away) and instead portray ships shooting at each other at really close range.

>>48955425
Are the Tyranids running from something bigger & scarier or what?

>>48952828
The thing about 40k is that most of their FTL sucks by sci-fi standards. Even without that weakpoint, I can't imagine them defeating shit like Prehistoric Halo & DC & Marvel.

>>48955107
the ships in BFG aren't to scale.

Remember you draw ranges from the rod of the flight stand, not the model. Rams and directed boarding actions aren't actually all that common. Teleport attacks are the most used tactic, and that's usually just to blow up escorts that get too close.

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>>48957834
>Implying anything can defeat the Imperium of Mankind
Filthy heretic the Imperium of Mankind is the strongest of all powers in history, now please report to your local friendly Commissariat for reeducation

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>>48950767

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>>48957883
>implying the Prehistoric Emperor's army isn't better

>>48942034
Give him 3 wounds, he's a main character.

>>48942129
So do genestealers. The thing that Arbites deal with without extraplanetary help.

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>>48942129
>Unless the marines can now kill gods they are fucked.
space gods fear the ultramarines

the god of death that put the fear of the reaper into every sapient race in 40k (including the orks) ran away from a lone smurf spewing machismo while holding a meltabomb

>>48957806
unlikely. that idea comes from an imperial scholars outright speculation. In the same paragraph he also speculates that they're an unstoppable force of nature as old as the universe itself.

>>48957853
the fluff frequently shows ranges in the light seconds region.
Or it describes being within visual range as point blank knife fighting range.

>>48959018
Right, and it makes for dramatic ye olde space fleete battles.

But we know that the typical engagement is going to be longer ranged, and the tabletop game supports that idea.

>>48937405
According to the Starcraft wiki the C-14 can penetrate 2 inches of steel (which is way way less than what a Space Marine is wearing) without specifying range but let's assume 500m. At 500m a .50cal AP round can penetrate 1.3 inches. So it's slightly more powerful than a modern .50cal at piercing armour. Then we have the Imperial Lasgun which can blow a man's limbs clean off of his body, which is similar to the type of force and power we see in that 50 (or more like a 20mm). So let's assume a lasgun is a little bit weaker than the C14. Now the lasgun is one of the weakest small arms in setting, and the bolter one of the most powerful so it doesn't seem far stretched for me to assume it outpaces the damage a Terran AR is putting out by comparison between all these weapons.

To go further let's take this .75 cal round, give it a velocity higher than a modern day sabot round that can punch through 500mm of steel, with an armour piercing tip and an explosive charge in it. Basically we're talking a round that is fired from a small arm with similar ballistic properties to a modern day tank shell, only being lighter, but also carrying an explosive charge.

Long story short a Terran's rifle fails to penetrate a Space Marine's armour at any range, while a Space Marine can murder a half dozen Terran marines standing in a row at 2km.

>>48960823
To compile on this I'll add a space dimension.

Reference >>48941547

Find the nearly invisible SC ships down next to the ID4 ship. Realize that an Imperial frigate has a mass at least double that of a Battlecruiser, while the Chapter flaship, and the Emperor battleship could easily take on dozens if not hundreds of Terran ships by itself. There is no viable scenario as far as I'm concerned where a ground only battle favours the Terrans, but even if they could in on the ground in space they are completely and utterly fucked, especially accounting for how it's an everyday matter for the Imperium to wipe out a planet from orbit, much less turn a continent to glass.

>>48960823
bolters are good but not that good. you're not getting 2kms out of one. They've always been depicted as comparable effective range too standard assualt rifles.

>>48961910


The lore may be stupid, but is nonetheless relevant but look at this guys post. >>48938588

Hitting a moving man sized target with ease at 2500 meters gives those rounds a velocity at least that of an APFDS round which is ~1700 m/s. At least. With a superhardened tip, and an explosive round we're looking at a small arm that can wipe out an IFV, which is something bolters are actually known to do in universe. Meanwhile their armour is proof against their own guns, at least a majority of the time, meaning they are completely invulnerable to a Terran's weapon at nearly any range, and possibly including having the tip of the barrel touching the Space Marine.