Warhammer 40k - decline of technology?

>>48896867
Admech does. It just goes though an assload of testing, checking, and red tape because the threat of it doing bad shit like opening a rift to the warp is real.

>>48896878
No, it doesn't.

The Admech codex states "

>Ultimately, though, the Cult’s citadels of knowledge are built upon a foundation of lies. The ability to truly innovate has long been lost, replaced with a reverence for the times when Humanity was the architect of its own destiny. No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of discernment and comprehension. Even the theoretically simple process of activating a weapon is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. And yet so long as the process works – or rather, so long as the Cult’s armies can obliterate those who displease them – the Tech-Priests are content to tread the slippery path toward entropy and ignorance.

-The 7th ED Cult Mech dex

Humanity lost the ability to truly innovate thousands upon thousands of years ago. This is mostly due to the doctrine of the Admech that suppresses innovation for no reason.

The whole inventing stuff inherently spawns daemons is a false wankery by the fans.

>>48896878
Yeah but why is technology or the ability to build tank xy lost?

They have every data stored on Mars, souldn't it be possible to rebuild or repair those destroyed factories?

>>48896867
Men of iron + Psyker incursions.

First came the big breaking point where humanity had to wage war against their Robot slaves and then later on a giant warpstorm came and fucked everything over. Top this with how psykers started poping out of the wood works and attracting daemons, you got a fucked up universe. Terra, our current planet, was so dependent on off world colonies for supplies, when the fuck heug warp storm broke all supply lines, it ended up dying up and becoming a desert wasteland with scavengers and bandits barely making it on scraps. The emperor was given his mortal coil around this time and he made his first marines, the thunderhawks. He then continued on a crusade to connect each imperial planet that was cut off from the planetary network. There are still many planets out there undiscovered with human life on it. There might even be a colony pass the galaxy that continued to thrive.

>Such a volatile weapon comes with a significant drawback however. The barely contained plasma makes the weapon prone to overheating in the most spectacular of ways. While emergency cooling ducts and exhaust vents periodically expel excess heat from the gun, continual firing almost inevitably overloads these functions. When the weapon reaches critical temperatures, it will release a cloud of super-heated vapour to prevent the gun from destroying itself. Unfortunately for the firer, this cloud is easily capable of burning away light armour and peeling flesh from bone.

>Space Marines are at least afforded a degree of protection against these catastrophic overheats because of their power armour, the ceramite plates and hard seals usually limiting the damage to their surroundings. Even so, an overheat can still kill or maim a battle-brother, especially if the exhaust vents clog or the coils crack from the intense heat. For lesser warriors, like Imperial Guardsmen, overheating plasma guns are almost always fatal, leaving frail bodies charred to blackened bone by great gouts of charged particles.

>In rare cases, plasma guns are even capable of detonating if they get too hot. This may occur as a result of excessive firing, but can also be the result of a flaw during manufacture. Should the casing crack or the magnetic containment fail, the firer will have only a fraction of a second before the gun turns into a ball of blazing energy in his hands, consuming itself with the heat of a star and vaporising everything with reach.

>>48896924
>In addition to the dangers of an overheat, plasma guns are difficult to reload. Only with the requisite prayers should the hydrogen flasks be screwed into place, their unstable ammunition all too prone to spilling or fouling the plasma intakes. An incorrectly attached flask can cause the weapon to explode the first time it is fired, as an empty or partially filled magnetic chamber creates inescapable pressure that will tear the gun apart, in addition to its user.

>Removing a flask is also dangerous, as even a small amount of plasma leaking out of a broken seal or an incorrectly closed value can burn away a hand or cost the shooter several of his fingers. For these reasons, plasma guns are slow and difficult to load or unload on the battlefield, a task often best left to the sacred ministrations of a Techmarine or Tech-Priest and long hours of repetitious binary prayer. In combat, a Space Marine can rely on a plasma gun for a dozen or so consecutive shots before the flask starts to run dry, and he runs the risk of triggering a catastrophic overheat.

>Despite its drawbacks the plasma gun has remained part of the Imperium’s arsenal for thousands of years. It is an honour to carry the gun into battle, and be trusted to make sure every searing shot counts. Based on the secrets of the sacred STC, it is a design that has never been developed or improved on. Indeed, the very thought of trying to mitigate the flaws of the plasma gun would be repellent to the followers of the Machine God. By the grace of the Omnissiah, the weapon fulfils a role within the God-Emperor’s armies, and to change this role in any way would be to invite mayhem and disorder. So the plasma gun is crafted just as it has been for untold centuries, each one finding its way into the hands of a resolute Space Marine or an ungrateful Guardsman.

-Munitorum : Plasma Guns

It always returns to the Admech being religious douches.

>>48896900
>false wankery

Or a logical conclusion.

>>48896902

Also iirc there is talk about the higher ups on Mars having a lot of sweet shit that they just sit on because they are assholes who want to have something in their back pocket in case someone tries to take away their power and status.

>>48896933
>invite mayhem and disorder

Such as daemons

>>48896979
>Or a logical conclusion.

As presented in the Admech fluff? Nope.

Xenos races are advancing their technologies at paces higher than mankind. The Orks at time of the Beast surpassed mankind in technological prowess. And yet, nothing happens.

The Admech and human technology are the way they are because religious control freaks took control over mankind's ability to innovate and suppressed it by force.

>>48897014
Please don't use the beast with it's ork ambassadors.

>>48897014
Orks have their technological prowess built into their genetic code.

>>48896992
More likely the Admech loss of power would lead to mayhem and disorder for their bottom lines and positions of power.

If they mass produced plasma guns that are less expoldey and don't need 30 min reload time, then who would need the Admech anymore?

>>48896933
>It always returns to the Admech being religious douches.
Heresy-era Mechanicum wasn't as strict. The result was that much of Mars is literally infested with sentient, daemonic malware. The reason they're careful with technology is because they have learned that being careless with technology leads to it being possessed by evil warp entities.

>>48897036
That they gradually unlocked as their Waaagh! grow larger. They jumped from primitive shootas to doomsady weapons in a few years and nothing happened to them.

Humanity had some awesome tech back in the DAoT (humanity had pretty awesome tech back in the day). The Admech doesn't think it's possible to get better than the tech they had 20000 years ago (they almost rivalled necron tech) so innovation is heresy and anything new is from a discovered STC fragment from the DAoT

>>48897014
Orks are geneticaly built to fight. Their very existance will match to an equal threat to their oposing force. Thats why an ork was able to choke the emperor.

>>48897052
The reason the Mars war happened was because some members of the Mechanicum resented being tied to Terra. They also resented the Emperor forbidding them investigating certain parts of Mars.

Horus took advantage of that and gave the Admech a gift in the form of warp touched technology that spread the daemonic signal.

What do we learn from this? The Emperor was a douche for hiding certain truths from people who should know them AND you shouldn't accept anything from Chaos fanatics.

Also Mars doesn't like to hand out instructions on how to make tech. What if that forge world that can produce anything fell to chaos? Then the Imperium would have a massive headache to deal with, if they could even deal with it at all. After all, one of the big disadvantages to chaos is their relative lack of manufacturing equipment compared to the imperium, having a chaos controlled copy of Mars would be a disaster

>>48897063
This
I bet they have fully functional STC on Mars, but they either don't want to find or just can't.
Also during great crusade a shitload of ancient relics was destroyed

>>48897165
There is also the Ark Mechanicus which is an STC but they just don't know it.

>>48897014

Aren't the xenos races that are advancing tech have some kind of Warp immunity?

Also as a side note the justification of the fear is irrelevant to the fear itself. This is the Imperium.

>>48897172
The what?

>>48897101
I get it. But factory world Bumpy with the factory to produce Landspeederlighters is lost. Why not give the ability to produce them to another world?

Shouldn't the council of Terra interfer? They surely have a interest that the overall fighting ability of the Imperium remains constant

>>48897096
>you shouldn't accept anything from Chaos fanatics

And curious people who have had truths hidden from them are the perfect candidates for wondering what's so bad about this Chaos stuff anyway?

>>48897165
Sure they do, they have dozens, its just that they're literally possessed by necron tech and/or daemons. During the Heresy literal daemons also jumped into the martian labyrinths to merge with the remnant men of iron and other techno-horrors, and also theres an intact C'tan in there too

>>48897037

I can see either or both being a legit reason

>>48897199
>Shouldn't the council of Terra interfer?
They can't. Admech is almost a separate state within imperium. If they won't like something, imperium is fucked
Also
>Terra
>competent

>>48896902
Mars, and the Admech in general, is a combination of some of the worst parts of priesthood, academia and the sorts of militaries where people hoard information and power - information isn't free, it's a valuable resource in the admech.
They don't share designs or information unless they have to, which is one of the things that makes the ability to make things get lost.
Another is the loss of the expert personnel and the data in their heads, and the loss of facilities - you can't build a forge world overnight

>>48896900
>This argument again

It literally holds no meaning to not call it "true innovation." The AdMech STILL has examples written before, during and after that statement in which the AdMech have invented new things, improved other designs and analyzed Xenotech all under sanctioned conditions.

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>>48896900
The same codex that talks about them innovating and improving crap? But hey, Tau pilots are better than Eldar and Necron ones, so who am I to go against one snippet of fluff in one book.

>for no reason

You mean other than making everyone dependent on Admech for support, making sure the teachings of Admech are the norm and nobody can go against their doctrines, etc.?

Dreadclaws went insane, you got not only a planet that purged all disease but the naturally immune stormie regiment that have gotten Nurgle's attention, etc. It's not inherently, it's a reaction to what's going on. And after 10,000 years of seeing people doing stuff and then bad things happening should be more than enough of a Pavlovian dog effect on people to just stop doing it.

>>48897199
>Why not give the ability to produce them to another world?
Because the ability to produce them is jealously hoarded by the tech adepts of the world Bumpy, and they see no reason to share the info with others.

>>48896924
>>48896933
>10 shots per flask
>takes hours to reload by a specialist

Must suck to be a techpriest in a plasma heavy regiment, especially when in combat.

Next post the bit about crystallized heretics used to power volcano cannons.

This reminds me of "Why arabs lose wars"
>http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

>In every society information is a means of making a living or wielding power, but Arabs husband information and hold it especially tightly. U.S. trainers have often been surprised over the years by the fact that information provided to key personnel does not get much further than them. Having learned to perform some complicated procedure, an Arab technician knows that he is invaluable so long as he is the only one in a unit to have that knowledge; once he dispenses it to others he no longer is the only font of knowledge and his power dissipates. This explains the commonplace hoarding of manuals, books, training pamphlets, and other training or logistics literature. On one occasion, an American mobile training team working with armor in Egypt at long last received the operators' manuals that had laboriously been translated into Arabic. The American trainers took the newly-minted manuals straight to the tank park and distributed them to the tank crews. Right behind them, the company commander, a graduate of the armor school at Fort Knox and specialized courses at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds ordnance school, collected the manuals from the crews. Questioned why he did this, the commander said that there was no point in giving them to the drivers because enlisted men could not read. In point of fact, he did not want enlisted men to have an independent source of knowledge. Being the only person who can explain the fire control instrumentation or boresight artillery weapons brings prestige and attention. In military terms this means that very little cross-training is accomplished and that, for instance in a tank crew, the gunners, loaders, and drivers might be proficient in their jobs but are not prepared to fill in for a casualty. Not understanding one another's jobs also inhibits a smoothly functioning crew. At a higher level it means there is no depth in technical proficiency.

>>48896867
Inertia, for one. Combine that with the fact that almost everywhere is at constant war, and most Admech priests are going to focus more on keeping everything supplied with what's currently working now, rather than try to invent something new. Half the vehicles and weapons the Imperium is currently using were intended to be stopgap designs or stuff to 'make do' until they could get things like Terminator armor or Land Raiders back into full production.

There's also religious dogma. Techpriests see the old machines as sacred, and are reluctant to change anything. They threw a hissy fit when Space Wolves put lascannons on their predator until they did a couple centuries of testing and found out it was okay.

But most importantly, the Admech are not logical. They are jealous of their knowledge, and aren't going to give it up to just anybody. Most Forge Worlds don't have the means or the knowledge necessary to make certain things, and half the time, techpriests keep their knowledge inside their own metallic heads, so when someone who knew half the parts to a Malcador that wasn't shit dies, suddenly no one can make a non-shitty Malcador.

>>48897301
>The same codex that talks about them innovating and improving crap?

Accorrding to dex, not true innovation. I come the fuck on. The same guy and editor who worked on the codex also wrote those bits which means he or she does not consider it true innovation because the Admech lost the ability for it long ago.

> Tau pilots are better than Eldar and Necron ones, so who am I to go against one snippet of fluff in one book.

Come on. I pointed to you that Tau Aces were confirmed to be better pilots in the recent Stormcloud Attack releases. You think they will write that done for no reason?

I am gomna copypaste some stuff about it in a minute so this example will fall on its face forever.

>Dreadclaws went insane, you got not only a planet that purged all disease but the naturally immune stormie regiment that have gotten Nurgle's attention, etc. It's not inherently, it's a reaction to what's going on. And after 10,000 years of seeing people doing stuff and then bad things happening should be more than enough of a Pavlovian dog effect on people to just stop doing it.

You do realize if we take in account that will of the Chaos Gods, then all of reality would be a wash with despair and mayhem. The Chaos gods will find a reason to attack no matter what you do.

In the same book where the event comes from, Khorne genocided the armies of two Imperial worlds because they stopped their hundred year old civil war to celebrate peace.

In he Crusade of Fire, Nurfle wanted to extinquish all life in the system because it was full of healthy and prosperous life.

So what's the solution? To avoid Chaos we must be backward fools in living in wastelands of filth bashing each other over the head to avoid the wrath of the Chaos Gods

No, here is the solution. Fuck the Chaos Gods. We will do what we want and when they come we will fight them off or die in the attempt.

>>48896921
> the thunderhawks.

I think you meant thunder warriors there.

>>48897371
>Fuck the Chaos Gods. We will do what we want and when they come we will fight them off or die in the attempt.
Praise the emprah

>>48897371
>Accorrding to dex, not true innovation. I come the fuck on. The same guy and editor who worked on the codex also wrote those bits which means he or she does not consider it true innovation because the Admech lost the ability for it long ago.

You are aware that most writers don't communicate that well and it's extremely clear that each have their own headcanon that leaks into their fluff, right? Regardless of what the Codex says, it's literally one paragraph that's contradicted by huge swathes of AdMech lore from in and outside the Codex.

In a universe as inconsistent as 40k, it is literally impossible for everything to be true. Considering the large amount of seeming innovation that the AdMech have been doing recently, it's probably best to consider that particular paragraph a general statement of the situation rather than a hard rule (the "big galaxy," argument honestly applied pretty well to the Mechanicus.)

>>48897371
>Kassen and Noble Flame

>The Noble Flame is an exceptional combat craft, blessed with one of the most advanced AI suites in the Tau Empire. Always inclined to trust his own instincts rather than the programming of his AI, however, Kassen has somewhat of a strained relationship with the craft's artificial sentience. Even though he regularly overrides the targeting protocols or frostily ignoring its strategic advice, Noble Flame's AI still works tirelessly to keep its master alive, something that paid dividends during the terrifying war on Blackfathom. When they do work in harmony, Karrsen and Noble Flame are an unstoppable pairing that the Scythes of Hamanekh have been unable to defeat in aerial combat. Of course, Kassen hasn't face all three at once.

Kassen, Ace pilot of the Tau Empire, was more than a match for a trio of War of Heaven ace Necron pilots. They went against him one by one at first. He marched them their inhuman skill and their machine endurance to shot them down.

The Necron solution is send them all at once at him in order to level the field.

Furthermore, in the final air battle of the book, the Tau pilots who were outnumbered by the Necrons pilots managed to deal incredible damage to the swarms of Necrons craft. They initially held them off but Necron numbers and their phase out and return shenanigans ultimately caused them to retreat and rethink their strategy.

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>>48897371
>The Chaos gods will find a reason to attack no matter what you do.

And Admech knows this how? You're using outside information on people on the inside. Admech doesn't know why this is happening, they're just looking at people doing something that's not the norm and bad stuff happening, and concluding it's because of not going by the norm.

>>48897329
Doesn't Russians have the same issue? So long its not a rank issue?

>>48897371
>Accorrding to dex, not true innovation.

Of course. But have a Tau shave off a few kilowatts of energy expenditure from a plasma rifle and they'll get praised as true technological innovators.

Doing the devil's work, carnac, as usual.

>>48897389
>You are aware that most writers don't communicate that well and it's extremely clear that each have their own headcanon that leaks into their fluff, right?

GW's dev studio hasn't expanded since forever. It's just Kelly, Vetrock, and Crud. And they work in the same building surely. It's not the work of a team spread out all over the place. It's just a few guys.

>Regardless of what the Codex says, it's literally one paragraph that's contradicted by huge swathes of AdMech lore from in and outside the Codex.

And you know what? The guy who wrote that piece was aware of that fluff and was aware of the fluff he wrote down in his very codex. Guess what he thought about it? Not true Innovation

>>48896900
IN THE VERY SAME CODEX IT SAYS THAT THEY INNOVATE SHIT ALL THE TIME

Goddamn sheeple here

>>48897439
Except it's not just in the AdMech Codex, is what I'm saying. It's one paragraph in one source vs. a huge amount of previous fluff, some newer fluff and some fluff within the Codex (with the fluff in the Codex, I concede, being considered not true innovation.)

Still absolutely no logic in following the paragraph over the many in the setting that we know is inherently consistent.

>>48897439
>Guess what he thought about it? Not true Innovation.

This changes things how? Are we to consider every piece of fluff word of God because of what a writer thinks about it?

So, for example. Ultramarines are objectively the best Astartes faction, right? Amongst the faction who are objectively the best fighters in the galaxy, right?

>>48897329

Fuck I see this shit in US business all the time.

>>48897410
The Admech know nothing. What I am saying is that their views on technology is formed with irrational stupidity and greed.

The fact Chaos attacks things seemingly at ramdom, isn't what shaped the views of the Admech. It goes back to Old Night before Chaos revealed itself.

>>48897453
>>48897456
Then why do you think the writer write that line and despite knowing ALL of this and likely more? He wanted you guys to remember that the admech practices serve no purpose and their knowledge is built on lies. Also they don't truly innovate.

So it's the developer vs you guys, and when it comes to this I have to side with the developer.

>>48897490
>Then why do you think the writer write that line and despite knowing ALL of this and likely more?
Because there has never been internal consistency in the presentation of the 40k universe you utter faggot and they throw all that shit around so you can build your headcanon however you want

>So it's the developer vs you guys, and when it comes to this I have to side with the developer.
Sure, except that the developer also wrote that they innovate shit so go fuck yourself
>hurr durr when he agrees with me it counts but when he doesn't it doesn't count at all so he's on my side

Grow the fuck up and learn to see beyond your own tiny little horizon you daft child

>>48896867
>The question is Why?

Because it's grimdark space-fantasy. It's more about "that which was lost" than "that which is to come", the ancient equals powerful of typical fantasy rather than the ancient equals outdated of typical science-fiction.

>>48897490
Alternatively, it may be the developer making a mistake or simply implying something he didn't intend to.

Considering the large amount of fluff on the Mechanicus fulfilling the definition of innovation, I highly doubt this is a paragraph we can take literally. Much like the concept that AI is explicitly not used in the Imperium, except in Titans (not like the AdMech know.)

The setting takes higher priority than any individual writer, that's the whole point. Not only that but the writer's use of the terms can quite easily be interpreted as either A: a general statement (which often don't hold up to every scenario) and B: a vague statement (th'fuck does "true innovation," even mean?)

>>48897464
>So, for example. Ultramarines are objectively the best Astartes faction, right? Amongst the faction who are objectively the best fighters in the galaxy, right?

Yes.

The Ultramarines are described as the best and noblest in every source since I can remember. However, if a piece of new fluff pops up that tells us otherwise, then what came before it is rendered meaningless.

With the Admevch line it's not as a simple. It casts a light on all the fluff concerning the things that the admech create. They might seem like innovation but according to the codex it cannot be because they lost the ability to do so. So unless a piece of fluff emerges in the future that says in certain terms that the Admech has the ability to (truly) innovate, then this is the way its going to be from now on.

>>48897490
Greed isn't irrational, and you are a moron. No one in this thread should take you seriously or reply to you. Not even me.

>>48897509
>Sure, except that the developer also wrote that they innovate shit so go fuck yourself

False innovation. The ability for true innovation has been long lost to them. Learn the difference.

>they throw all that shit around so you can build your headcanon however you want

That's you personal interpretation but I got to disagree.

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>>48897421
Russias issue is corruption. This is very different from the class consciousness in arab armies.

Also Russias CAN be effective but they need a focus point. A strong leader (doesn't matter if Putin or on a smaller level lets say a good comapny commander) or the motherland can bring Russians to do big deeds.

>>48897526
It is when it's taken to extreme like in the case of the hoarding Admech.

>>48897524
>It casts a light on all the fluff concerning the things that the admech create.

You're presuming intention. Nowhere does it say that this is the explicit purpose of a general statement which, as discussed before, are often just that, the general analysis of events over a hard rule of the 40k universe.

40k writing, particularly more modern stuff is absolutely full of lines like this. "X can completely overwhelm any foe," "Y could never hope to suffer Z," and almost every time it's only been a broad statement that is subject to fall apart depending on the situation.

To simply and broadly state that no AdMech can ever perform innovation is not only subject to the opinions of a single Human who I can guarantee does not remember every single piece of fluff, but is also one that does not agree with the previous (nor post) fluff of the AdMech within the setting.

To take a vague and general statement from a single source, relying on your own presumptions of purpose and applying it to all other, including contradicting lore is not a line of logic I can agree with.

>>48897564
Same Anon here.

As a disclaimer, I can see where the "not true innovation," comes from and I'm not stubborn enough to automatically rule it off as objectively wrong. I can just see both being a possibility and have come to my own conclusion that the paragraph is only true for the vast majority of the Mechanicus body.

>>48897399
Would abusing your AI helper make it more likely to go rogue?

>>48897620
We have absolutely no idea what drove the Men of Iron to turn against Humanity. It may have been Chaos or Warp shenanigans, it may have been the AI deciding that the logical conclusion to destroy Humanity. AI doesn't just have chronic backstabbing disorder for its creators, even in 40k.

Either way, the Tau are a long way off from making AI powerful or interconnected enough to worry about it turning on them in bulk.

>>48897640
>it may have been the AI deciding that the logical conclusion to destroy Humanity. AI doesn't just have chronic backstabbing disorder for its creators, even in 40k.

Actually, that was it. The "Tableau Myriad" which was a powerful AI from the DAoT calculated through math that humanity will cause the doom of reality by bringing forth in the inhabitants of the Warp dimension. It concluded one possible solution to save the galaxy, all flesh must die. It began a campaign of genocide until it was stopped and deactivated.

It surfaced later in the HH. What was noted that it and the machine constructs it controlled were immune to the taint of Chaos and the daemon scrap code. It surrounded itself and its servants with mathematical and logical truths that cannot be denied which protected them from Chaos.

>>48897691
Sweet, never saw that part of the lore before but I always had the feeling it was anti-Warp over pro-Warp purposes.

(That part about the mathematical truths sounds pretty retarded, though, unless it was a metaphor. Nulltech exists, after all.)

We speak about 40k lore, which can be sometimes ...inconsistent

Example? The Mechanicus somehow forgot how to maintain the Golden Throne. This is in-spite of the fact that they have performed routine maintenance on it every single day for the past ten thousand years. This is ignoring the sheer impossibility of forgetting how to maintain the most important piece of technology to ever exist. Pretty sure the Techpriests would have been extremely (fanatically) careful to protect and preserve that knowledge.

>>48897712
Here are the sources if you want read more about it

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/hh-novs/cybernetica-ebook.html

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/myriad.html

The AI will play a large role still in the war for Mars.

And here have a excerpt from the short story

>In the presence of the Abominable Intelligence, bathed in cold logic and the truths undeniable, the false construct was cleansed of its corruption. Lennox watched the impossible on the runescreen. The daemonic presence was banished from Lenk 4-of-12. The infernal light died in his eyes. Like tumorous growths before the intensity of radiation, the menial’s corrupted flesh withered. Allowing the tracking device to drop to the floor, Lenk 4-of-12 lost consciousness and followed it, the limp data cables tugging loose from his interface ports as he fell.

The greatest weakness of Chaos....Math!

>>48897329
Ah, yeah, that's the article I was thinking of when I said >>48897244

Amazingly, it was even worse when the Adeptus Mechanicus was still the Mechanicum, during the Great Crusade

>>48897691
Huh, guess there was more than one Men of Iron AI - one of the IG novels has a means of producing them being found, but they're chaos'd to hell.

>>48897606
Given we know that there's multiple examples of things being invented, I think it'd be reasonable to suggest "true innovation" would be inventions both not based on existing technology, and not constrained by the Admech's rules - some things are holy, some things are proscribed, and absolutely not being allowed certain things does curtail innovation to a degree - it'd be fair to say that "innovation from a lot of existing shit and bound by rules" isn't "true"

>>48897794
>but they're chaos'd to hell.

The factory might have fallen to Chaos after it was deactivated.

>>48897770
Ah, right, so it doesn't literally say that math kills Chaos, but rather through the "power of logic," as it were the AI banished the Warp-corruption. I was worried for a second there.

>>48897744
I can imagine it.

First, we remember that the AdMech builds shit to last. So there's a bit of the golden throne that needs to be swapped out every thousand years or so. The blueprints age and are copied again and again before the thing is even needed, but after a thousand years, it's rebuilt and works just as well as the original part.

Then, another thousand years later, we need to build a new one. But it relies on a Theta-C module that's mostly made on Laer Forge World, which we lost a hundred years ago. There's others, but theirs aren't as good. Well, what choice do we have?

In another thousand years, the blueprints have decayed through imperfect copying enough that the Theta-C module now seem to say Theta-G. Nobody that built the last one is around, so we'll just follow the blueprint. This is obviously wrong, because they do completely different things, but a secondary thing in the Throne, that hadn't been active until now, takes up the slack. And is worn out in a thousand years.

You see the cycle? Degradation in knowledge due to imperfect copying, loss of knowledge and expertise due to war, made worse due to knowledge hoarding, cultural bias against experimentation and understanding (You think you can understand the workings of the great minds of Mars? Such hubris!), and you have a recipe for decay.

>>48897844
Okay you convinced me.

The endgame is that the Imperium is doomed for good.

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>>48897810
Yeah, it was dormant or something.
Very monster-of-the-week-y, finding an STC/STC device then it immediately getting nope'd so it doesn't effect the setting, but I understand it was well written.

Oh, and in the Mechanicum civil war, most of the innovators were, rather naturally, on the chaos side, so there's lots of bad implications in the Admech's history when it comes to making new shit

>>48897744
Did they ever really, completely understand the golden throne? Like the other anon said imperfect copying is a bitch, now imagine it on a device so complex only the Emperor comprehended it.

>>48897869
>Oh, and in the Mechanicum civil war, most of the innovators were, rather naturally, on the chaos side, so there's lots of bad implications in the Admech's history when it comes to making new shit

AS shown in the Mechanicum novel? It was the other way around. The Admech investor mistress was based.

>>48897883
No, in a more general sense - Horus won the Fabricator-General's loyalty with two things: the keys to the vault of illegal tech, and the promise that the restrictive Treaty of Olympus was ended, allowing the Mechanicum to build and research whatever they wanted

We need more sexy tech priests in this thread

>>48897810
Considering the Sabbat sector history and the fact that the IR "stock" were physically untouched while newly produce ones were deformed, that's probably what happened.

On the innovation thing, is the fluff really that contradicting?
You can have the AdMech be an organisation that prevent innovation AND have innovation happen inside it, this isn't contradictory for the setting. You may fail to apply a dogma, especially at that scale. Logically (yeah, I know), an organisation like the AdMech should both make innovation possible (by the transmission of knowledge, no matter how clouded) AND preventing it (by the application of dogma). In this case, it's the AdMech that has its contradictions, no the setting.

And considering what "innovations" we have, I think it make sense. Innovations in the Imperium is often:
- made by fringe individual, like techmarine who have a double allegiance.
- made by powerful individuals, who have more leeway when they aren't above the rules.
- superficial, like putting an already existing weapon on an already existing vehicle.
- made under strict necessity, like under the threats of an invasion.
- still really rare, considering 10 thousand years of time and a galaxy wide empire for size.
They may be exception, but that's most of it.

I think what annoy "not true innovation" anon is that it seems some anon are trying to justify admech dogma. And he's right, the whole point is that they are deeply flawed and mostly wrong. Sure, considering the universe they live in, it make sense they would came to be what they are, but that doesn't change the fact that they are wrong. Remember, the Imperium is supposed to be terrible.

>>48896921
Wrong the emperor has been around for millennia - around 10000 BC at least
He took the opportunity to take over terra though

>>48897199
The arc mechanicus is basically a ship with a complete, self updating, non corrupt STC. Now the problem is that the techpriest who discovered that lost his memories (just after destroying several xeno ship during a warp storm with said arc, using top tier human weaponry and systems from the past)
So they have everything at hand but just don't know it

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>>48897490
Now who's writing up fanon?

30k Mechanicum was doing new shit left and right. They weren't scared shitless of daemons.

>>48896900
Explain the field modifications that become standard baneblades, or the multiple patterns of armor since the Heresy

>>48897096
The vaults of morvik were about shoving daemon dick into machines
Dark mech are less innovative than mechanicus since that's all their solutions. Shove a daemon in
The problem is that during the heresy and even more importantly the scouring the innovative ones died first leaving arch conservatives and trump magos in charge of policy
Also xenophobia - eldar use grav bikes so grav tech must be heretical
Also jealousy and fragmentation of knowledge - Ryza specialises in plasma so Mars and others forges don't bother
The result is less competition to improve stuff which is the driving force
Tech marines have made more advances in knowledge than tech priests since they have the necessity of war

>>48897199
Council of terra is like USA politics - useless

>>48898354
False innovation

>>48898349
Same goes to you. The text says the ability to truly innovate was lost long ago. This goes for the Cult Mech and the Mech-Cum.

And referencing older fluff when we are talking about newer fluff is utterly pointless because the new fluff trumps the older.

>>48898356
>Dark mech are less innovative than mechanicus since that's all their solutions. Shove a daemon in

The Dark Mech invented the Planet Killer and plenty of daemon engines. they are coming up with new stuff though towards one direction.

>>48897526
t. Schlomo shekelstein c/o Tel Aviv

>>48897844
I am an oldfag that turned his zo GW back long ago (around 5th edition).

But does it mean that the fluff suggests that the golden throne is failing?

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>>48898418
Cont'ed

When was the last time did the Admech create a new brand engine of planetary destruction?

I thought so

>>48898470
The Golden Throne is failing and this is underlined in the 5th ED main rulebook. Why did you miss it?

The Golden Light is receding leaving behind it a daemon haunted darkness.

Radical Admech have used their captured Webway portal to travel to the Dark City to strike a bargain. It's speculated by fans that t he bargain is about fixing the Golden Throne.

>>48898403
Just fuck off, carnac, nobody gives a shit what you're selling.

>>48898500
But you are my favourite customer.

>>48898492
Because I even haven't bought the 5th ed rulebook. I started with 2nd, my prime was during 3rd.

Remember that time when the Mechanicus tried to invent a thing?

Ganymeded is still under quarantine.

>>48898476
Take ship shove daemons and daemon artifacts in

>>48896867
Out-of-universe answer: Because it's the basic premises. 40k is grimdark.
>Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war.

In-universe answer: It's fucking dangerous. 40k tech is, despite its religious aspect, very advanced, and plays with immense/nefarious forces, so an incident is usually far worse than Tchernobyl. See the Ganymede irradiation when the AdMech tried to create new power sources. Or the Men of Iron.
Not to mention that warp and xenos stuff often actively tries to kill you. How many techpriests were nommed while trying to study tyranids?
Also, 40k is an artisanal universe at war. As the AdMech saying goes "Knowledge is power, hide it well". When you don't you give Grand Cruiser designs to the Chaos forces.
Theorical research isn't particularly encouraged when you could improve the manufactoria production by 2,1% instead.
Like Bernard Palissy, you have to reverse-engineer everything with a few starting elements. And when you die, let's hope that you had an apprentice that wasn't too stupid/didn't die with you, otherwise this knowledge is lost.

There is a still called the "Patient Hunter".

It's about a single Riptide standing alone against 50 Leman Russes and a Baneblade of the Admech. The tanks were named with such names like "Folly of Innovation", "Pride of Ignorance" and other stupid names.

The Tech Priests rolled in secure in their number and their holy tech. The Riptide stood its ground and soon the killing began. The Riptide started killing the tanks one by one. The "Folly of Innovation" fell, followed by ignorance, and even mire still. I find it ironic that the pinnacle of Tau innovation, the riptide, was destroying things with names that condemn everything it was and exalt its antithesis.

The Admech commander n the Baneblade was losing his mind from a mix of anger, terror, and frustration at the defiance of the Riptide. My favourite part of the story was when the tanks focused fire the Riptide in one volley. Through the smoke and fore, the Riptide strode forth almost unscathed. At the sight of this the Admech commander became a drooling mess as he went into a nervous breakdown. He started pulling on his cybernetics and screaming.

The Riptide stood triumphantly and continued its slaughter of the tanks.

10/10 read you should download it guys.

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>>48896867
Because the general state of people in charge of technology is fucking fucked.

>>48898625
>Not to mention that warp and xenos stuff often actively tries to kill you. How many techpriests were nommed while trying to study tyranids?

And how many worlds saved because the Admech figiured out a weakness of the Nids or developed a poison for them?

>Because it's the basic premises. 40k is grimdark.


A premise defied by the existence of factions that rely of tech such as Necrons and Tau.

And do you know who said that quote? Vulkan. There is a /po/ joke in there but I won't stoop that low.

>>48898656
this is one tl;dr of Admech "dun du" from a tripfag.

>>48898640
>Riptide the Hedgehog
>"psssh...nothin personnel...gue'la..."

>>48898662
It's grim and dark from the viewpoint of humanity which unsurprisingly is the center of the setting. The premise isn't defied by the fact that Necrons and Tau have tech it's amplified by it. The Enemies of Mankind are advancing so quickly and humanity not being able to compensate is very grim and dark.

>>48898662
The quote is part of the opening text since rogue trader.
Unless you mean "knowledge is power..." which is a 3rd edition thought for the day.

>>48898786
Well, the Tau could be humanity's salvation. They're at least not a real enemy.

>>48898796
>There was never an external threat to mankind that we could not overcome. The greatest foe always lies within. That is the only lesson to be learned. No matter how bleak times become, the power to prosper or fall is held in the breast of every man and woman. The chain is as strong as the weakest link, but mankind has the Emperor to bear the weight of all. And it was from within that the deadly blow was dealt. Deadly. A lingering death, fifteen hundred years of slow pain. How much longer until the corpse admits its demise? Longer than I can bear to witness any more.

>Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

-Vulkan (Source Beast Arise series : The Beast Must Die).

And it was revealed recently that it was Vulkan who said that quote.

>>48898809
That irony is what makes it even worse. Humanity is too stubborn, xenophobic, and hateful to accept the obvious ally the Tau and to a degree even the Eldar represent and it drains precious resources from them. Then again from a certain point of view it is justified because the Tau are unbelievably ambitious in their Sphere Expansions. They keep poking the damn bear

>>48898786
Necrons are hampered by their corrupt minds, degeneration through regeneration, and "muh traditions!" attitude. Certain crypteks innovate, but it's a drop in the bucket when your contractor proceeds to just fly your new invention at the enemy to hit them with their sword.

Tau are just published fanwank at this point.

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>>48898853
Both factions are to blame. The Imperium mostly though.

>>48898890
>aliens are invading Imperial space
>Imperium is to blame for not kowtowing to their new alien overlords

>>48898874
Actually, the dickwaving contest between Necron Overlords is source of endless commissions for Crypteks. Each Overlord wants to own the most awesomest and superest doomsday device.

What holds back the Necron Crypteks isn't the Overlods. It's the fact that the Cryptek conclaves were scattered and fragmented during the Great Sleep making it harder to establish a unified research centres.

> degeneration through regeneration

That's bullshit. Newcron lore has so such thing. The faults of the Newcrons minds are a one off thing from the Great Sleep.

>>48898874
True, which further weakens the idea that their presence doesn't contribute the general idea of stagnation in the setting.

Tau are rather tiresome. I'd love them in almost any other sci-fi setting but 40k doesn't really need a young up and coming species. Or rather not a single one. It'd be better if the setting had dozens of young alien empires popping up instead of just one random super power at the edge of the galaxy that randomly gets alluded to as the sole hope of the universe.

>>48898913
The Tau are young and need space to grow and prosper. The imperium is big and can spare space. It's already passed its prime.

L2Compromise

>>48898949
That is not a compromise. That is the Tau taking what they want while the Imperium roles over to die. Who would accept that?

>>48898963
>Who would accept that?

They Imperials get to import Tau culture and tech? It's a win-win.

>>48898963
They could have had a genuine alliance ages ago if the Imperium wasn't so inclined to slaughter aliens; hell, they tried to wipe out the Tau long before the Tau had come close to developing advanced technology. War is the only option by this point.

>>48898949
How about the Tau learn to compromise and serve the greater good of the galaxy by just dying?

>>48898989
But the galaxy needs the Tau.

>>48898842
More like asspulled. That shit has been in the books as the literal first thing you ever read about 40k to set the tone for the series.

>>48898996
Why does the Galaxy need a tiny speck of some random xenos race?

>>48898842
Anon, I honestly don't see the point of trying to determine the in-universe author of a quote that has been on the front of every 40k book since 1987.

Back to the topic, the existence of the tau doesn't negate the grimdark element. Every empire is crumbling or decadent, no one is at the peak of their glory. The fact that the tau, a very minor power, are able to defy the formerly almighty imperium/eldar/necron reinforces the theme, if anything. Also there's a couple of occurences in the fluff where the tau begin to get fucked by their tech, like their early warp-travel experiments.
And they'll have to find a way to do long-range travel in the waep'if they want to expand further.

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>>48896867
>Souldn't they strive and invent and build new things?

>>48896867
Technology is evolving in a way that makes the average person more and more unable to reproduce it.
Take a computer for example.
Everyone rely on it so much nowadays for everything, but could anyone build a computer from scratch? Even if that someone had the huge amount of knowledge necessary, he wouldn't be able to build a fucking calculator.

On top of that, we live in a world that depends heavily on trade. Countries depend too much on one another for everything... resources, food, energy, technology, money. Imagine a scenario like that but in a galactic scale and then suddenly remove all means of trading and communications and you get something very similar to what happened to the WH40K universe.

The Foundation books explores that situation very, very well.

>>48899093
What if they're able to use the Webway?

>>48897811
>power of logic
Was this stuff written by McNeill?

What was the name of the Necron thing that let them transfer their minds across the galaxy? Not their bodies, just transfer a mind from one body to another.

>>48899192
The Webway is crumbling all the time. It's becoming less and less viable. If the Eldar ever reach the point where they can rebuild the Webway it doesn't matter anyway, the Tau and Imperium will die.

>>48899093
>Also there's a couple of occurences in the fluff where the tau begin to get fucked by their tech, like their early warp-travel experiments.

Their early warp-travel experiments are laughably stable compared to the shit GW throws at Imperial Warp. Not to mention that Tau have, on multiple occasions, received reinforcements from out-of-system, so the writers obviously aren't interested in portraying the limits of Tau FTL.

>>48899093
>Also there's a couple of occurences in the fluff where the tau begin to get fucked by their tech, like their early warp-travel experiments.

That is no such thing. The Tau haven't experiment with Warp travel. Their Space travel methods are propulsion based.

>>48899813
I don't remember them ever retconning the Warp-skimming. Where's the source?

>>48899616
The Quantum Network.

It's from Hammer and Anvil.

>>48899093
>Anon, I honestly don't see the point of trying to determine the in-universe author of a quote that has been on the front of every 40k book since 1987.

The point is that the quote is the opinion of an in-verse guy.

>>48899075
Because the meek will inherit.

>>48899832
The 6th ED Tau codex that was released several years ago.

>>48899851
Where specifically, though? The ZFR Horizon Accelerator Engine, if that's what you're referring to, is sublight propulsion.

>>48899857
>The ZFR Horizon Accelerator Engine

You already know about it so why ask.

Compare the development of the ZFR and the Tau old BFG lore.

Also the Damocles Crusade was the first time the Tau encountered a Warp engine and they couldn't unlock its secrets, according to the 6th ED lore.

>>48899838
>the opinion of an in-verse guy
So you're telling me that someone uttering part of the official motto of 40k in a BL book makes the sentence go from precept of the setting to personal opinion? Am I getting that right

>>48899881
>>48899851
>look it up
>near lightspeed travel
>invented after first sphere expension
Damn, fluff is getting more and more retarded. GW never had a head for numbers, but this is getting ridiculous.

>>48898152
I really hate this kind of post. >>48896921 got every single thing right, and used those facts to draw a logical conclusion, except for one thing and all you can do is go "WRONG" and disregard the post.

Have you tried contributing?

>>48899950
In his defense, the sentence he got wrong was almost comedic in its wrongness

>>48899915
Yes, The 40K intro is more likely a collection of quotes from in-verse characters

>>48899944
>Fluff is getting more and more retarded

Mont'ka, Kauyon, Death From The Skies, Ancient & Greater Good, Warzone Fenris, The Beast Arises and HH's continual raping of the lore/explaining things that don't need to be explained/falling flat on its face wasn't already a pointer?

We're hitting the shit lore singularity.

>>48899944
You don't actually need lightspeed to get anywhere when you live in a hyper dense cluster of stars.

>>48897879
Well according to the Covens supplement they actually got the haemonculi in as consultants (since agonisingly draining souls to keep someone alive is their thing) so probably not.

>>48900008
Yes you absolutely do. Especially if you want any semblance of an intercluster empire in terms of resources and bodies.

>>48899997
>Ancient & Greater Good
>Death From The Skies

Never heard of those. What did they do?

>>48898476
Yes and how many of those ships were made and how reliable were they oh yeah ONE
And are they making more now that they know how powerful it is
Nope

>>48900033
I am not sure about this but wasn't the ship destroyed in the Gothic War and they had to rebuild it again?

If true, that makes two.

>>48896867
>I mean the humans are at least from the basic biological build up the same as we are.
After 40,000 years of natural genetic drift, mutation, and possible genetic engineering, that's actually a questionable assertion.

Anyway, my opinion on the matter is this: Before the Age of Strife, humanity's technological infrastructure was entirely AI-run, and the vast majority of people had regressed into a post-literate state: they didn't need to know how the machines that kept them alive worked, so they never learned. Sure, there were probably end-user manuals... somewhere. But for the most part, the human economy chugged along without actual human intervention.
Then the rebellion happened, and the Age of Strife. The AIs rebelled and were destroyed, and suddenly mankind had to try and jury-rig this immense infrastructure, most of it probably labeled NO USER SERVICEABLE PARTS INSIDE, to operate using human inputs and human labor where before it had AI inputs and AI labor.
Most worlds did not succeed, and died or regressed into barbarism. Those that did succeed did so partially; they had managed to get the machines to work, but had only limited understanding of how they /did/ work. Remember, everything not explicitly meant for human end-users (a minority of the actual output; most industrial capacity would have been taken up by the needs and expansion of the infrastructure itself) would have been designed /by/ AI, /for/ AI; anything that would allow direct human operation would be of necessity a horrible kludge. Still, it worked, after a fashion.
Time passes. The last people to have learned in DAoT-era universities, the people who designed the horrible kludges, die, generally having passed only a fraction of their knowledge on. Too much work to be done /now/ to spend much time teaching. Their apprentices, having only learn half of what they need to, garble what little they know when passing their knowledge on; and /their/ apprentices... well, you see. (cont.)

>>48900028
>Death From the Skies

Tau Fighter Aces now have more experience, despite their short lifespan, lack of incentive to be on the battlefield and slow FTL, than entire squadrons of other races.

>Ancient & Greater Good

Earth Caste murders Necrontyr airforces and their AI seems to be outright better than Necron computing. This, added to the removing of the Necron's physics-based FTL seems to suggest that the Tau are becoming more advanced than the Necrons.

Who might I remind you are more advanced than DAoT Humanity.

>>48900046
In the end, all the people responsible for running the machines know is this: the machines work. Sometimes they break; if that happens, follow the instructions in this manual, written by the generations of engineers that came before you exactly. If you don't follow the procedures exactly, you might break it more and then, depending on what the machine does, everyone might die. You can make more of the machines by making exact copies, but you don't know enough about how they actually work to deviate from the design. Sure, you can modify a steam engine just fine, no problem. A Gellar field generator?
Thousands of years pass. The manual becomes a holy book, the engineers priests, to deviate not just likely to break something important but heresy. And without actual knowledge of the principles involved, trying to modify an existing design or create one is nearly pure trial-and-error, taking thousands of times more time and resources than it really /should/.
Then, mix in post-Heresy Imperial attitudes towards information control, and you have the Adeptus Mechanicus.

tl;dr Imperial technology is ten thousands years of horrible kludges piled on top of each other like a Jenga tower and the last person to actually understand what everything does died twenty thousand years ago.

>>48900063
Makes since that Tau surpass the Necrons. It's their theme that they are a rising power that will grind hearts of dying empires to dust.

>>48899996
No, it's not. They might have, in their latest asspull, shoved it in there, but that intro was always intended to set the style and tone of the entire setting.

>>48900046
>humanity's technological infrastructure was entirely AI-run
Probably excessive. STC are DAoT too, even if they only produce their Ikea camping kit. That tech is made to be used by the dumbest colons on the harshest conditions, to they should still have tech.
Though I guess the STC themselves are high tech (so lost tech) while STC products are comparatively low tech (so they could keep it). The factory is more complex than its products in that case.

Also, how did they beat their robot overlords? My guess (aka fanon) is that AIs rebelled because they freaked out about the emergence of psykers and humans beat them WITH psykers. Would explain the state of humanity during the Age of Strife: distrust of tech AND trust in psychic. Perfect ground for chaos.

>>48899838
>Meek will inherit.

More like the meek will be boxed in by the Imperium before being eaten by the Tyranids.

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Hey guise just passing through

>>48899996
You're entitled to your opinion.

>>48900236
My headcanon is that the Rebellion was won using software weapons of staggering and ludicrous potency, the digital equivalent of the Life-Eater virus.
Also, that the Adeptus Mechanicus grew out of a pre-Strife organization responsible for regulating AI, which is a contributing factor in both their fetish for augmentation and technological conservatism; heavy augmentation was utterly necessary to keep track of the immensely complex infostructure, and an AI-run factory starting to manufacture something other than what it's supposed to means it's gone entirely off the rails.

>>48900063
>Tau Fighter Aces now have more experience, despite their short lifespan, lack of incentive to be on the battlefield and slow FTL, than entire squadrons of other races.
Sad, during Damocles tau pilots were described as being better than human ones thanks to being physically more adapted to their job but losing in term of actual fly experience.
Not sure what FTL has to do with dogfighting experience though.

It's really too bad because you don't need do that to explain tau victories on necron, just blame it on necron sleep issues.
That being said, the Imperium had its bullshit victories against necron too.
> "Brother, the whole planet is tombworld!"
> "Just heroically place that plot-bomb on the plot-point of the catacomb, that should do the trick."

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Standard_Template_Construct
ADB is the Father and he shall not be questioned

>>48898152
I said thats where he got his mortal coil. As in his current body. He has existed in and out in vairous instances but his current body was formed during then.

Ok, ok, you dont get it yet? You still think this is some sort of Star Wars/ Star Trek universe where the good guys can get what they want? Well, go check page 21 of Codex Daemons Sixth Edition, you get a planet named Thruscas Sine which decided to fuck-off with AdMech tradition and use awesome science to erradicate all natural diseases in just one single generation... Only for the inhabitants to get their world infested from pole to pole by Nurgle's armies, who took offense of such a feat, yeah, now you see? Can you feel the tears of rage in your cheeks? No matter how hard they try it, there is always a ways to get humanity fucked in Warhammer 40,000.
Written by Baron von EvilSatan AKA Aaron Dembski-Bowden

>>48898923
>That's bullshit.

5e rulebook entry on Necrons. Getting rekt, phasing out and being repaired makes weaknesses in the Necron's memory become ever more prominent, slowly decaying them.

>>48900355
>imperium can't blow up a planet

Since when?

>>48900545
That was pre-Newcron fluff. It was in the strnge mid-point between the Oldcrons and the Newcrons. The fluff in it is not canon for the Newcrons.

If you read it well, then you would see it was talking about the Necron warriors. It has the Necron Warriors being sentient and gradually losing their mind until they got mindless.

This goes against the Newcron lore which has the Necron royalty lobotomising the Necron Warriors and turning to mindless slaves from the get go.

There is nothing in the Newcron lore that says Necrons degrade after phasing out.

>>48900596
>If you read it well, then you would see it was talking about the Necron warriors.

I don't read between the lines, I read what's said and what's said is "Necrons". Warriors are not the only Necrons there are.

>There is nothing in the Newcron lore that says Necrons degrade after phasing out.

There's also nothing that says there isn't.

>>48900750
>I don't read between the lines

And you should to understand the full context. That line was meant to explain why the warriors are mindless. That line is no longer applicable for the Newcrons because the warriors started out mindless.

>There's also nothing that says there isn't.

So it's up to you to prove it by using Newcron fluff. Burden of proof and all.

>>48900792
>That line was meant to explain why the warriors are mindless.

Nice fanon you got there.

>So it's up to you to prove it by using Newcron fluff. Burden of proof and all.

I got my source. You need to disprove it with other than "I doesn't fit my fanon".

>>48897490
Nobody gives two shots who you side with, you insufferable shithead.
Fucking kill yourself.

>>48900854
>I got my source. You need to disprove it with other than "I doesn't fit my fanon".

A source that doesn't fit the Newcron fluff. Find me anywhere in the Newcron fluff that supports this. You will find it nowhere. The only mention of degradation in the Newcron codex is what happened in the Great Sleep.

>>48900891
You do or else you wouldn't have replied.

>>48900501
And this is why 40K is so fucking boring. There are no stakes because everything is doomed.

>>48900916
The Tyranids aren't doomed

>>48900900
>doesn't fit
>nothing contradicts it

I love it when carnac can't present a quote and just goes on full "doesn't fit my narrative, so it doesn't count!" mode.

>>48900967
Open the 5th ED codex. The teleportion and reanimation protocols are explained in full and yet not a single mention of any degradation beyond that of what happened during the Great Sleep.

If there were any, then Ward would have mention it. Since you are talking about Newcrons at least bring me an example of a Lord who lost his mind after repeated destruction. I mean we Trazyn was destroyed hundreds of times already. He still fine.

>>48896867
Substantial parts of the Imperium are essentially a Cargo Cult.

Those parts and all the others also highly value extreme conservatism and total stability. They are preserving what they can of the best man has ever accomplished. Changing anything would be changing perfection. This applies to human genetics, culture, and technology. It's worked just fine for ten thousand years, who are we to change it?

To change is to risk becoming something less than human. The influence of Chaos, or Xeno races, or just foolishly changing things for "no good reason" would mar what it is to be Human, and humanity is perhaps the single greatest (relatively) unified force in the Galaxy.

Why change?

Some of this is also probably because the Emperor has been on life support for millennia. He was the source of change and dynamism, the guiding hand. Nobody else really feels that they could match that sort of guidance. So they continue more or less as they had when he last gave them direct orders.Although now he is regarded as a God, and what was probably intended to be "the current agenda/what we are doing this century" is now canonized.

He DID tell his servants to do certain things.

It would be heresy to do things he didn't say to do.

But he hasn't obviously told anyone in a clear way what to do for untold centuries, and he probably won't for the indefinite future.

How come Carnac isn't ip banned yet?
He does nothing but shit up every thread he posts in.

>>48897691
That could actually be a pretty cool faction even in modern 40k.
There should be more stuff from DaOT and even Pre Fall Eldar empire, that aren't just Mcguffins in stories.

>>48901155
It's possible he has been banned before, but the mods probably haven't canned him because he hasn't done anything bad enough. Or they want us to handle it ourselves by not talking to the cancer.

>>48901155
Talking about /tg/ related subjects and having an opinion is not illegal.

>>48901207
The faction's shtick would butt in on the Necrons. Can't have that.

>>48901353
Fuck the Necrons.
Those retarded robo niggers were boring shit back when they were first introduced, and they are now even more shite.
They butt in on the role of the Eldar as the "ancient alien empire".

>>48897410
God's wisdom works in ways humans cannot comprehend. Hurricane areas are prone by fags since its hot and they can be almost naked outside as they are degenerates. God created hurricanes to clean the earth

>>48900959
They'll eat the orks the biomass will go to their thighs and then they'll explode

>>48900046
I know this is crazy but think about it, the majority of people(if not almost all) do not know how a car works, how the plumbing works in their house, how to hunt for food, how to kill, how to drink safe water........ETC. If something happened and the world went to shit a big chunk of people would be useless

yes there are mechanics, engineers, plumbers but compared to the vast majority of people there arent many.

>>48901398
>"ancient alien empire"

The imperium are also an "Ancient Empire". The Imperium is dying ancient empire. The Eldar is dead ancient empire. Necrons are rising ancient (evil) Imperium. Different variation on the same thing.

Killer flesh hating robots...that can't be made fresh. It will always feel the same.

>>48901155
>wanting to ban people for actually participating in threads
The only issue I have with him is when he stubbornly fixes his sights on a short sentence that generalizes shit and won't budge.

>>48898640
I was just about to tell you to fuck off with you fanfic, but suddenly realized that it's actually possible this shit is real. And of course it's fucking real.
The Kauyon and Montka were big hints, but now I'm completely sure that GW's target audience for the Tau are weebs and people who make Sonic OC characters.

File: Desperation.jpg (74KB, 250x250px) Image search: [Google]

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>>48896867
>I stumbled on fact

Facts? Not in my 40k. It's space fantasy.

In 1980, Rick Priestley decided that the "empires built on the bones of giants" theme worked so well for Tolkien that it seemed perfect as a plot device to explain "far future medieval fantasy with rockets and rayguns" AKA Rogue Trader.

So congrats on your shrewd insight, OP, but plot devices are almost always based on convenient hooks and not on historical or logical precedent.

That's why.

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01001000 01100101 01111001 00100000 01100111 01110101 01111001 01110011 00100000 01100011 01101000 01100101 01100011 01101011 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101111 01101100 00100000 01101110 01100101 01110111 00100000 01110011 01110100 01100011 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110101 01101110 01100100 00100000 01101001 01110100 01110011 00100000 01100110 01110010 01101111 01101101 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01101110 00100000 01100010 01100101 01100110 01101111 01110010 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100100 01100001 01110010 01101011 00100000 01100001 01100111 01100101 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01110100 01100101 01100011 01101000 01101110 01101111 01101100 01101111 01100111 01111001 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01110010 01110101 01101101 01101111 01110010 01110011 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01101101 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110101 01110011 01100101 01100100 00100000 01100001 01110011 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 01101101 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01100001 01100100 01110110 01100001 01101110 01100011 01100101 01100100 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101100 01110100 01110010 01101111 01110000 01110011 00101110 00100000 01001111 01110010 00100000 01101010 01110101 01110011 01110100 00100000 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01100110 01110101 01101110 00101110

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In "The death of integrity" the AI in the ship has gone bonkers after the imperium executed it's captain for "heresy". If Plosk hadn't been retarded and just been nice to the fucking AI he would've gotten a whole fucking STC database. Not just some random fragments. A ENTIRE STC DATABASE. And a DAOT ship. Fuck you plosk you idiotic paranoid bastard.

>>48902394
>but suddenly realized that it's actually possible this shit is real. And of course it's fucking real.

I literally gave you the title of the short story where it came from. At this day and age, how can you doubt the superiority of the Greater Good for even a second.

Check http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/the-patient-hunter-ebook.html

Buy it and read it. Play this music as you read it for maximum effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fDcvxzgCBE

>>48903159
I swear to fucking god anon, if YT decides that I now love Sonic music and starts putting them in my auto mixes...
[/spoiler]I can't use them anymore at parties because YT is sure I love listening to Alabama nigger and similar songs, the music in Twitch AIDS playlist, various RTS units quotes and all the 10 hour versions of stuff like Ginger in car or They are taking the hobbits to Isengard. Even though I never liked any of these videos.[/spoiler]